Return to Transcripts main page


Terror Attack at Boston Marathon; Judge Separates Arias and Alexander Family

Aired April 15, 2013 - 20:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Live tonight, to Boston and Phoenix. Boston, two simultaneous bombs tearing through the finish line at the Boston Marathon. The horrific scene unfolds as witnesses hear two loud booms, leaving victims either dead or injured, facing amputation and terrified. It`s a third incident at Boston`s JFK Library connected?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The explosion as it happened -- and there it is. It just -- well, we wanted to warn you. But wow, that was an intense explosion. And look at the reaction. Wow. That was just one. That was one, yes.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... saying there were two.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were simultaneous explosions that occurred along the route of the Boston Marathon, near the finish line.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At that finish line, you have thousands of people waiting, applauding the people who cross that finish line.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These explosions occurred 50 to 100 yards apart.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And as runners were finishing, you had these two pretty big explosions.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The governor says this is a horrific day in Boston.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And each scene resulted in multiple casualties.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two people died. We do know that many of those injuries are critical in nature.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re picking them up, putting pressure on wounds. A lot of people were hurt. And we just threw them, ran as fast as we could down here to give blood.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Something just blew up! Oh! Run!

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We still do not know who did this or why, and people shouldn`t jump to conclusions before we have all the facts. But make no mistake, we will get to the bottom of this. And we will find out who did this. We`ll find out why they did this. Any responsible individuals, any responsible groups will feel the full weight of justice.


GRACE: And tonight, we are live at the Phoenix courthouse, where the Jodi Arias judge actually separates Arias from murder victim Travis Alexander`s family in court. This as the defense demands that charges against Arias be thrown out of court, and the defense asks to show the jury a mystery photo, which they say, when enhanced, proves Arias is innocent.


JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: Isn`t it true that Mr. Alexander was extremely afraid of the defendant, Jodi Arias?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had enough pixel data to be able to zoom in and get what is reflected in the eye.

MARTINEZ: I would say to you, I`m looking at that with all the enhancements in the world, I can`t see it. You wouldn`t be able to dispute that, would you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That would be up to the jury.

MARTINEZ: You grab a gun, you back up, you shoot Mr. Alexander, you shoot Mr. Alexander -- you shoot Mr. Alexander, the -- pick up the camera.

JODI ARIAS, CHARGED WITH MURDER: Things began to get really foggy after the gun went off. And I don`t -- - I know he was screaming and cursing. I don`t remember exact words except the ones he said.

SANDY ARIAS, JODI`S MOTHER: Jodi has mental problems. Jodi would freak out all the time.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s no evidence that signing autographs and posing for photographs under these very limited circumstances could affect the jury`s vote. The court cannot make that finding, so the motion for mistrial is denied.


GRACE: But first, we take you to Boston. We are all taking your calls, as well. Straight out to WPRO`s John DePetro. John, what is the latest?

JOHN DEPETRO, WPRO RADIO (via telephone): Nancy, at 2:45 this afternoon, two bombs, two explosions went off, right at the finish line. This is right on Boylston Street, right in Copley plaza. As of right now, we know that there are two dead.

The latest is -- and this is so tragic. I had a very emotional phone call with a nurse, one of the victims an 8-year-old child. Hospitals now are treating somewhere over 80 people. There are even reports over 100 people. The FBI is involved in the investigation, just a horrific massacre-type scene in Boston.

This is Patriot`s Day, Nancy. This is the biggest day in Boston outside of St. Patrick`s Day. It is Patriot`s Day, the Boston Marathon. I spent the morning on the radio, talking with various runners who were going up, excited. It`s school vacation week, so you have children there.

And whoever or whatever group or person set off these devices, it was right at the finish line, where you had children, you had families. And first responders that I spoke to -- I spoke to a Boston police officer who started crying, saying it suddenly turned into just a carnage, a war scene of just blood and body parts.

GRACE: With me, in addition to John DePetro, joining us is Vernon Loeb, who was a runner in the Boston Marathon. Here`s the explosion. Vernon, thank you for being with us -- Vernon joining us from Boston. Vernon, what happened? Describe it for us.

VERNON LOEB, MARATHON RUNNER (via telephone): Well, I`d finished the race maybe half an hour before the bombs went off, and I was maybe three blocks away. And we heard two explosions. And there was absolutely no doubt in anybody`s mind that they were bombs. I mean, you just don`t hear things like this very often.

And you know, you had to be -- the aftermath of the Boston Marathon is such a special moment, and when these two bombs went off, it was like a hush fell across the entire kind of post-marathon scene. And then almost immediately, this symphony of sirens started emerging from every direction -- ambulances, police. And they just kept coming and they kept pushing people out, farther and farther out from Boylston Street, to the point where the crime scene now is about, you know, 15 blocks -- you can`t get anywhere near the end of the marathon.

GRACE: People are reporting doctors pulling ball bearings out of victims. At least 10 amputation victims at this hour, 8 children among the injured, that we know of. Now we know one of the two victims is, in fact, an 8-year-old.

Vernon Loeb is with us, a runner in the Boston Marathon. Vernon, there were two bombs, explosions that we know of. And it`s just such a horrific sight to see runners suddenly start falling. Did you leave the scene immediately? What was it like when you finally left?

LOEB: Well, when I, you know, crossed the finish line and kind of, you know, slowly walked another sort of quarter mile down Boylston Street, it was -- you know, it was the iconic post-race party under way. And then, you know, everything changed in a flash.

I interviewed one guy who said -- happen to be a journalist. I`m an editor at "The Washington Post," so I immediately started working. I interviewed one guy who was close to the bombing. He said he heard the explosion, he saw the smoke, he looked down the street, he saw body parts, and he just turned away.

I mean, whoever -- whoever set these bombs, you know, did so knowing they would kill and maim a lot of people. I mean, it`s just a dense pack of people, 30,000 runners, tens of thousands of spectators, tens of thousands of more family members.

Quite frankly, I`m amazed that only two have been killed, and I think now they`re saying 132 injured. I mean, it could have been worse. I mean, there are so many people at the finish line of this marathon.

GRACE: An update, everyone. A terrorism expert briefed on the investigation is telling us police searching right now for a Penske truck, a Penske truck that tried to gain access to the marathon route before the blast but was turned away. Police searching for a Penske truck that was turned away from the marathon route.

Vernon Loeb with us, a runner in the Boston Marathon. This is reminding me in a horrible way of the night I was at the Atlanta site of the Olympics when the bomb went off.

Joining me right now, Ryan McGrath, also heard the explosion, also a runner in the Boston Marathon. Ryan, thank you for being with us.

RYAN MCGRATH, MARATHON RUNNER (via telephone): Thank you, Nancy.

GRACE: Ryan, what happened?

MCGRATH: So as Vernon mentioned, I had just finished, as well, just prior to 2:00 o`clock, and it takes a little while to get through the finish area. You pick up, you know, your water and your checked bag, and you start to get your cellphone. and as you wait for your friends, now it`s -- first thing on anybody`s mind is getting something to eat. So my group of runners, we had started walking down the street to grab a quick bite.

We sat outside, heard what sounded like a canon, and one of the guys said, That sounded like an explosion. And I said, I find that hard to believe. I couldn`t imagine -- it is Patriot`s Day. Maybe they just have a celebration.

And then as Vernon mentioned, very quickly, the sirens, fire trucks, unmarked police cars, police cars, state troopers, ambulances. And quickly, we took to Twitter and to the Internet to find out what happened, as well as started receiving text messages and calls. And it became pretty chaotic very quickly.

GRACE: Everyone, an update coming across the wires right now. Police searching for a Penske truck that tried to gain access to the Marathon route just before the blast but was turned away.

In addition to Ryan McGrath, who heard the explosion, Vernon Loeb also with us, with John DePetro. With me right now, reporter with "The Patriot Ledger" Jack Encarnacao. Jack, thank you for being with us. What is the latest, Jack?

JACK ENCARNACAO, "PATRIOT LEDGER" (via telephone): Well, there`s this situation here that`s developing here with the truck. This is a new detail. It`s not something that police were volunteering initially. But the absolute latest is a climbing injury toll, as a few of your guests have said, north of 100 at this point, the new detail emerging that one of the victims was indeed a child, and just, you know, folks trying to figure this out at this point. Folks are starting to get home if they had left and lived in the area from the marathon site. So we`re getting a lot of reports in as to what it was like firsthand.

GRACE: Jack -- hold on just a moment, Jack. I`m going to come right back to you. Boston bombing BOLO -- which is "be on the lookout" -- a darker skinned or black male, possible foreign national from the accent of the individual. This is what we`re hearing right now, Boston bombing, be on the lookout -- this is what we are -- I`m reading it right now, law enforcement looking for a darker skinned or black male with a black backpack, a black sweatshirt, a possible foreign national based on the accent of the male.

Five minutes before the first explosion, he was attempting to gain entry to a restricted area. He was turned away. He broke eye contact and pulled his sweatshirt hood over his head. Nothing further on him. That`s what we`re getting right now.

Out to Stacey Newman on the story. Stacey, what are you hearing?

STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Well, Nancy, after these explosions, our understanding from sources, two more explosive devices were found, one right there on Boylston Street, near the viewing stands where the marathon finish line is, and another one at an undisclosed location. Our sources will not tell us where that other device was found.

They`re being examined right now, and at least one of those devices has been detonated by investigators. They`re also saying -- they`re also saying -- they`re describing these devices as crude and says they`re dealing with relatively modest devices in terms of their explosive power.

They are also, Nancy, zeroing in on surveillance video. There are tons and tons of surveillance video cameras in that area.

GRACE: Stacey, let me get something straight. You`re telling me that in addition to the two bombs that we know went off -- there`s also an incident at the JFK Library there in Boston. We`re trying to determine whether that`s connected. You`re saying that police also detonated more. Tell me about that again.

NEWMAN: Yes. There were two more explosive devices found after these two initial blasts. One of those devices has been detonated by investigators. The second one they`re investigating. They are using bomb- sniffing dogs. And they are describing these devices as modest in terms of their explosive power. They`re also calling them crude devices. And they are using surveillance cameras to determine these factors. There are many in that area, Nancy.

GRACE: With me also, Jack Encarnacao with "The Patriot Ledger." Jack, what more do you know?

ENCARNACAO: Well, certainly, this is something that we`ve been talking about today because at one point, police decided, apparently, to detonate a device that they found suspicious. It was shortly after the initial two blasts and in the area of the finish line. A lot of people were actually concerned, if you were tracking it on Twitter and other fora, that it was another explosion.

But in fact, police quickly got the word out that they had planned to, or part of the strategy was to detonate anything that looked suspicious. And pretty much, you know, any bag that anybody may have dropped in fleeing the scene was considered that, as they locked down the perimeter.

So there was that explosion that raised alarm, all of a sudden, that there may have been a third. We came to find later that that was a police tactic to detonate the bomb.



JODI ARIAS, CHARGED WITH MURDER: I`ve been trying to put his death behind me. I didn`t do anything that had anything to do with his death in any way.

ALYCE LAVIOLETTE, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE EXPERT: He makes her feel very special, and throughout this relationship, it`s one of the things that she continues to say.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pretty scary to know how close she was to me after what she had done just a few days before.

LAVIOLETTE: She was able to set a limit. She was -- she still had boundaries, and the boundaries were about stopping him at a place where she believed was a real violation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because she murdered my friend in cold blood.


GRACE: Welcome back, everyone. We are live not only in Boston, but in Phoenix, as well, bringing you the latest and taking all of your calls. Right now, we`re camped outside the Phoenix courthouse. Jean Casarez, Beth Karas, Alexis Weed and Alexis Tereszcuk all joining us.

Jean Casarez, what a day in the courtroom! At one point, the judge had to literally separate Jodi Arias from Travis Alexander`s family. They were all put together, just inches away from each other in the jury box. Well, that was a snafu, to say the least!

JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Nancy, it was like a two-minute time-out because all of a sudden, on the big screen, you see this close-up photo, minutes or seconds before Travis is attacked, and you see his face, you see his eyeballs, and that`s what the hearing is going to be about.

Well, everyone wants to see, so the defense requested that Jodi sit in the witness chair. She actually sat in the jury box with her attorney, and right behind her was the brother and two sisters of Travis Alexander.

So they had to look through the person who killed their brother, no matter if she`s guilty or innocent, and then they had to look at their brother, who`s gone. And they started to cry. Very hard, Nancy.

GRACE: Jean, Jean, can you imagine -- this is the way I was thinking about it, as a crime victim myself -- being that close, inches away from the person that murdered the one you loved the most, inches away from you, where you could actually put your fingers around her neck!

Renee Rockwell, Jason Lamm -- unleash the lawyers. Renee Rockwell, this is a scenario you don`t want to happen in court!

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And Nancy, do you recall the case where the woman had her -- the suspect right in front of her that molested her child, and she pulls out a gun in court and kills the person?

GRACE: Yes, I do. Oh, yes, I do!

ROCKWELL: Not unusual. And that`s what the sheriff`s responsibility is, is to protect the defendant. Go figure that out. It`s happened before.

GRACE: I mean, Jason Lamm, it has happened. It has happened. And I can still remember the moment I walked beside my fiance`s killer. And I was just about three feet, and I was so torn up, I didn`t know whether to keep walking or lunge across the table and grab him around the neck and try to kill him!

JASON LAMM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy, this is one of those rare times that you and all your guests are actually in agreement. This was stupid on the part of the sheriff`s office. It was poor planning. You never put victims...

GRACE: The sheriff didn`t order them up there.

LAMM: ... and defendants together...

GRACE: The sheriff didn`t put them up there, did he, Jean?

LAMM: Well, but the -- but the sheriff controls security...



GRACE: Everybody, we are live in Phoenix and Boston. We`re going to take you back to Boston shortly. We`re also taking your calls on both stories.

Jean Casarez, you were answering, who put everybody up there in the jury box together?

CASAREZ: The defense attorney specifically asked that Jodi sit on the witness stand to be able to look at this picture. And I look down, and I look up, and there she is in the jury box. Somebody must have directed her to sit in the jury box. Somebody must have directed her to sit in the jury box. We didn`t hear on the record who. But it was a shock to have her sit where the jury sits.

GRACE: And finally, seeing what was happening, what was brewing in that jury box, the judge has to separate Jodi Arias from Travis Alexander`s family. Also today, multiple requests for the judge to throw the case out, more motions for mistrial.

Everybody, we have for you a close-up of what they`re talking about in court. This witness claims that he has enhanced that shot of Travis Alexander and that you can see in his eyeball that -- a reflection. And he says when correctly enhanced, you can see that it is Jodi Arias holding a camera. What is the significant of that, Beth Karas?

BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION": The defense says, Nancy, that that corroborates Jodi Arias`s testimony that she was simply taking pictures at that time that exhibit, which is known as number 159, Travis Alexander seated in the shower, looking straight at her.

The problem I have with this is that Newmeister (ph), the witness, says he sees her -- she`s standing, and he draws this little figure over the image that he sees on his equipment. Jodi Arias`s testimony was she was crouching at that time. If she was standing, Travis would have been looking up. She`s crouching.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The explosion as it happened -- and there it is. It just -- well, we wanted to warn you. But wow, that was an intense explosion. And look at the reaction. Wow. That was just one. That was one, yes.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... saying there were two.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were simultaneous explosions that occurred along the route of the Boston Marathon, near the finish line.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At that finish line, you have thousands of people waiting, applauding the people who cross that finish line.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These explosions occurred 50 to 100 yards apart.


GRACE: Everyone, we are live in Boston and in Phoenix, bringing you the latest and taking your calls. Joining me right now from WCUB, Liam Martin. He`s at Mass General Hospital there in Boston. Liam, thank you for being with us. What do you know?

LIAM MARTIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know 141 injured as of this time, that`s the most out of the number. 17 of those are critical. Now, we have spent the day here at Mass General Hospital in Boston. Here in particular, they`ve had a lot of people coming in. 22 of those 141 injured have come into this particular hospital, six critical here. And I can tell you that of those six, four of those, we know for sure, are amputations, usually of the lower limbs. And just an example of how hectic it has been here across the city today, just moments ago we were under lockdown at this hospital. They had discovered a suspicious package inside the parking garage. They brought in SWAT teams, they brought in fire trucks as a precaution and then they brought a number of MGH police and they had this entire area on lockdown. Even patients weren`t able to get in and out during the course of that. They have since been able to clear that scene. They got rid of that suspicious package.

And so things seem to be back under control here. But we talked with a doctor, and he said, inside this emergency room, he described it as being out of a war zone, as he was in there. Just so much blood, and of course, all of the limbs that were lost. He said, it`s unlike anything he`s ever seen. And that`s from the director of emergency services, who has, of course, seen a lot of things here at one of Boston`s greatest hospitals through the course of his years here.

GRACE: With me from WCVB, Liam Martin, he`s at Mass General Hospital in Boston and he is taking your calls. Liam, before I go out to the lines, I want you to take it from the top and fill me in on everything that you know so far.

MARTIN: Well, we know that there was, of course, an explosion near the finish line, along Boylston Street, that was around 3:00. And then, of course, the second explosion. And we know that`s where most of those casualties came from. Again, 141 injured, 17 critical, 2 people dead. And we had learned not longer than an hour ago or so that one of those dead is actually an eight-year-old boy. So, of course, there was a lot of panic after those first two explosions. They were able to get people into medical tents, which fortunately you have medical tents right there at the scene for the marathon runners beforehand. And then, of course, they began to transport people to some of the major hospitals throughout the city here in Boston.

And then we had a third explosion at JFK library in Boston. Police, as of just moments ago, were still trying to piece that together and figure out exactly how that might be connected to those first two. And of course, once you have those three explosions, people began to believe that there were the possibility for more. And so you had a number of suspicious packages that were found throughout the city. And the units had to come in and maybe detonate those or figure out exactly what was going on. So certainly, we have been on high alert here throughout the city.

GRACE: Well, Liam Martin, everyone joining me from WCBV, police did in fact detonate other very crude, rudimentary explosive devices, we know that. So there were more. And I think one of the reasons that everybody is so scared is because this is reminiscent of 9/11 for simultaneous explosions went off, very careful planning. Liam, in the last moments, we have gotten a BOLO, be on the lookout for a dark-skinned male, with a black backpack, black sweatshirt, possible foreign national. What, if anything, have you heard about that, Liam?

MARTIN: I haven`t heard anything in particular about that, but I do know that at Brigham and Women`s, there were several reports that someone was being held there, we do know that within the last half an hour. So there were a lot of federal officers over at Brigham and Women`s, which is one of the other major hospitals here in Boston. I think they`re still trying to figure this out. In fact, it was only a couple of hours ago that they were ready to declare this an attack. The governor here in Massachusetts, Deval Patrick, came out to give a press conference to update people on the number of injured, the number of the dead. And that was the first point, at which they had even gone forward to call this an attack. So, of course with all the craziness here and with all the injured that they`re trying to take care of, they`re still trying to figure out exactly what happened.

GRACE: OK. Hold on. I want you to back up just a moment. Everybody with me, Liam Martin with WCVB, joining me there at Mass General in Boston. You`re saying that, at Brigham and Young Women Hospital, that there were reports that a possible suspect was being held, is that what you`re saying?

MARTIN: That was the report. We have another reporter over on the scene there, that is not confirmed at all, but we do know that within the last half hour, before we came on to this program, they did have a number of federal officers that had descended upon Brigham and Women to try to potentially figure out if that was the situation over there, but again, that is not confirmed.

GRACE: Also, Liam, if these are crude devices, as has been reported, and there are multiple, many of them, if they are crude, that would suggest someone is not an expert. Therefore, would not be an expert in handling them. Do you have any idea why the federal officers have been swarming Brigham and Young?

MARTIN: Not in particular, other than that, there were reports of potentially a suspect, who was being held there. And of course, here we`ve seen federal officers swarming, as of about an hour ago, because of a suspicious package. So, there are a number of different reasons why these federal officers are in different places throughout the city. We`re not exactly sure what`s going on there, but we do have a reporter on scene, who`s trying to update that and figure out exactly .

GRACE: Yeah.

MARTIN: . what`s going on and confirm if that is, in fact, the case.

GRACE: Liam, we`ve also been told that federal officers are looking for a Penske truck that was near the scene, at the beginning, that the driver wanted something to do with the marathon route. They were turned away. What do you know about a Penske truck?

MARTIN: Nothing other than actually, what you guys have reported, as of right now we don`t know anything in particular about that Penske truck or, you know, exactly what that situation was.

GRACE: Yeah. With me there at Mass General, and we are taking your calls, WCVB`s Liam Martin. Let`s go out to the line.


... an instructor at Boston University. What do you know, Tom Shamshak?

TOM SHAMSHAK, BOSTON UNIVERSITY: Nancy, as the caller suggests, this could have been ignited by a remote control device, given that there are only 12 seconds separating these horrific explosions. In terms of an operational response right now, the area where these two devices were exploded will be locked down for days on end. And this will be a methodical grid search that is going to last for quite some time. Federal, state, and local law enforcement parties will be in there, picking apart, looking for any piece of evidence linked to these devices. And I understand that they have seized a device and they`re going to be examining both of them.

GRACE: With me, Tom Shamshak, instructor at Boston University. Also with me, Dr. Gwen O`Keefe, joining me out of Boston, physician founder of, who has been in touch with many of the doctors at the local hospitals who are dealing with the severed limbs. Dr. Gwen O`Keefe, thank you for being with us. Why so many severed limbs and amputations, doctor?

DR. GWEN O`KEEFE: Well, from what I understand, Nancy, the explosions happened very low to the ground, and that`s where people`s legs were. And from what we can gather, there were actual ball bearings in these bombs. So that acts like little, basically, knifes and things that can tear through limbs, not to get too graphic. So they were designed, these bombs, to do the destruction that was caused. So the people closest to the bombs basically had some shearing force and I understand it was a pretty gory scene. I had a friend who was right close to the explosion, and he said it was almost worse than what he saw in the Army, when he was stationed over in Afghanistan.



MARTINEZ: Now you`ve looked at it.


MARTINEZ: It doesn`t have any markings on it?


MARTINEZ: Isn`t it true, sir, that if we were to show that to other people, they could disagree with you about these markings that are here, wouldn`t - couldn`t they?


MARTINEZ: So that -- and there`s no scientific test, for example, that we could apply so that we could take a look at exhibit number four, for example, and verify that your lines are accurately drawn as to what may or may not be in the background, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, what we could do is like I could actually put up .

MARTINEZ: No, sir, I`m asking, is there a test that we can administer, like a cancer test, that we could administer, so that we could determine whether or not your lines are drawn correctly?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are procedures where we could use magnetic lathes attached to luminance and chromatic values.

MARTINEZ: So you`re saying that everybody who looks at this photograph would draw the exact same lines, is that what you`re saying?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would say if you had the equipment I had and you were asked to trace what I had, yes.

MARTINEZ: So, for example, assuming that my eyes are 20/20, and I said to you, and I`m looking at exhibit number three, I don`t see anything that you have here. Would you have any reason to dispute what my eyes were seeing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, cause for speculation?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would say you`re not looking at it through the equipment I have been able to look at it for.

MARTINEZ: But the equipment isn`t here for the jury to see, is it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But if you`re looking at it on that monitor, it`s much better than on the RGB monitor.

MARTINEZ: And it`s - and these are your lines. Again - if I were to say to you, I`m looking at that with all the enhancements in the world, I can`t see it. You wouldn`t be able to dispute that, would you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That would be up to the jury.

MARTINEZ: That`s right, it would be up to the jury to decide what they see, not you, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s correct.

MARTINEZ: I don`t have anything else, thank you.


GRACE: As a matter of fact, I think at one point, Martinez said he thought he saw a dog in the picture. All right, Liz, let`s see what we showed several weeks ago. This is not newly, a newly discovered evidentiary photo. Liz, do you have that video? Could you run it, please?

I want to show you a disturbing new theory that has emerged. Let`s see the shot of Travis Alexander`s eye. Take a look very carefully. I want to see the one and two shot we have prepared. Take a look at this theory, after very, very careful consideration. H.J. Blankenship has spotted the possibility of two people there in the iris of Travis Alexander`s eye. OK, what you are saying is the same type of speculation that`s been going on and on. Now, this guy, Blankenship, says that he sees two people in the reflection, in Travis` eyes. This is just like seconds before Travis Alexander is murdered. Unleash the lawyers. Sue Moss, Jason Lamm, Renee Rockwell. Sue Moss, joining me out of New York. Why isn`t the judge going to allow the speculative explanation to the jury?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY &VICTIMS RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Well, there was ultimately a stipulation that was reached .


MOSS: ... but you cannot say with a reasonable degree of professional certainty that the lines that this alleged expert put on a drawing are correct. It just doesn`t pass the scientific test that we lawyers and the judges are required to abide by. It`s just ridiculous. It is voodoo science.

GRACE: And let me get this straight. To you, Alexis Weed, what he wanted to show the jury was this photo with his own etchings on it, to show what he perceived the photo revealed, which was Jodi Arias holding a camera?

ALEXIS WEED, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right. So what the photo expert wanted to show was, this almost silhouette that he had drawn in like a white pencil around, showing Jodi Arias` alleged elbows, kind of up like this, and her side - and he actually stood up during his testimony and said that the camera would have been held just about at chest height here, at chest level. And so that`s something, though, that the jury is not going to see. All they`re going to learn is that Arias was not holding a knife and she was not holding a gun at the time that this photo was taken.

GRACE: Well, I believe we can all agree that at some point she didn`t have a knife and a gun in her hand. Weigh in, senior reporter Alexis Tereszcuk.

ALEXIS TERESZCUK, SENIOR REPORTER, RADARONLINE.COM: This is just another attempt by the defense to throw everybody (ph), which is the fact that Jodi has admitted that she killed Travis. And in fact this doesn`t match up with her initial story, which is that she was standing there, because what he`s saying, I`m sorry - that she was crouching. Because this defense, I`ve heard her saying that she was standing. So once again, it`s a contradiction, and I don`t believe that this will have any effect on this jury.

GRACE: With me tonight, chief Rosenthal, certified evidence photographer. He testifies as an expert witness in photographic documentation. Keith, thank you for being with us. What do you make of this photo?

KEITH ROSENTHAL, CERTIFIED EVIDENCE PHOTOGRAPHER: Well, I`ve looked at the photo, and of course, I`m not looking at the original photo that - or a copy of it, so I can`t really examine it closely, but it does look like you could see the highlights, for sure, from the flash and there`s two highlights above the flash that I can`t really make out what it is. Remember, I`m looking at it, that it was taken by a pool photographer or a pool videographer that .

GRACE: Right. But do you look at when you analyze a photo? What would you be looking at?

ROSENTHAL: Well, you`d be looking at a copy of the original photo, and you`d be also looking at photographs that were on both sides of the photograph that you are examining. So that you could see any inconsistencies throughout the various photographs.

GRACE: Right. Well, to see if it`s been tampered with. Keith Rosenthal, question. Have you ever, in all of your history as a photographic documentation expert seen someone try to analyze what is in the object`s iris, the person`s iris, what`s in the reflection?

ROSENTHAL: I would say that you could do that, and, you know, start with the highlights. The highlights from the flash.

GRACE: Have you ever seen it done? Have you ever seen it done, Keith?

ROSENTHAL: I`ve done it. I`ve done it all the time. Sometimes you`ll get a photograph, I`m also a commercial photographer, so I have assignments where people will say, here`s a photograph that I want some new photographs made, and we don`t know how the photographer took it, and I`ll need to look at the photographs, and sometimes it`s a portrait, and I`ll look in the person`s eyes, and I`ll see that there`s two umbrella flashes, and I`ll be able to then set up my lights to be more similar to what they were using, umbrellas instead of soft box.

GRACE: Wow. So, it can be done, Keith Rosenthal.

ROSENTHAL: Yes, it can be done. And it depends on how much clarity there is in the digital file itself. So, how good was the camera, how clean was the lens, how you know, close was the person to it? And it looks to me, I can`t really say because I can`t see the original, but it looks to me like they were very close. The pattern of the flash, you could test that and see if it was, you know, how close they were, but .


GRACE: Welcome back. We`re live at the area`s courthouse. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, all this about the picture in the iris is the tempest in the teapot. Because she`s admitted that she stabbed him and shot him to death. So, whether she put the camera down and got the knife, it doesn`t matter. What I want you to weigh in on is putting the victim in the jury box with the perpetrator.

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: One, it re-traumatizes them. And two, it makes them feel unsafe, that in the court of law, people would be stupid and negligent enough to put them together.

GRACE: Because I mean right now I can still remember that moment, and that was, you know, 30 years ago.

SAUNDERS: Yes. And I`m sure it brought back the nightmare for you .


GRACE: We remember American hero, Army Private First Class, Paul Cuzzupe II. 23, Plant City, Florida. Awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Combat Action badge. Mother Annette, stepfather Michael. Grand parents David and Barbara, sisters Alexis and Julia. Brothers Anthony, David and Troy. Paul Cuzzupe II, American hero.

Unleash the lawyers - Sue Moss, Renee Rockwell, Jason Lamm. Sue Moss and Rene Rockwell, first to you, finally, they agreed on a stipulation, which is a sentence is read to the jury, where the judge says no, you`re not going to bring in this picture with what you believe is Jodi Arias in his eyeball. We`re going to read to them at this point, before the death, Arias had a camera is essentially what she`s reading. What about it, Renee? I would never agree with stipulations. I want to show the jury myself.

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: OK. Well, maybe the defense had the decision whether to let it be read or not to have it go in at all. Nancy, there`s one witness that the defense needs, that`s it. And it`s over for the state. So they`re just talking to one witness. That could be enough for them to get an acquittal - I mean on jury.

MOSS: Who cares? Who cares! We can`t see the knife. She`s the one who took his life. Look, there`s no abuse excuse, it`s a ruse. Everybody knows it. The prosecution has already won this case.

GRACE: I wish they had brought it in myself so Martinez could tell the jury that he thinks it looks like a dog, all right. "Dr. Drew" up next. Everybody, I`ll see you tomorrow night. 8:00 sharp Eastern, our prayers in Boston. We`ll see you tomorrow night. Good night, friend.