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DR. DREW

Jodi Arias Trial Coverage

Aired April 16, 2013 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Good evening.

I`d like to welcome this week`s co-host, TV personality, Teresa Strasser. Teresa, thanks again for joining us.

Now, we`ve got a lot to cover tonight. Thank you for being here. And did you watch Jodi today, Teresa?

TERESA STRASSER, CO-HOST: Of course I did. I live in Phoenix. I can`t escape Jodi.

PINSKY: OK, fair enough. Today, finally, Jodi diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. Something we`ve been talking about for weeks on this show. And we`ve got more of the trial. We have the latest from today.

But now, we`re going to hit the play button and get back to finishing this trial up for you. So, sit that play button and get on with it right away.

JENNIFER WILMOTT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Do you know if they change names?

WITNESS: No. I don`t know.

(VIDEO GAP)

WILMOTT: About how many hours a week did you work there?

WITNESS: About 20.

WILMOTT: And then August of 2008 to August of 2009, so now we`re talking a year before that, is that right?

WITNESS: That`s correct.

WILMOTT: You worked as a clinical, psychological intern or resident, right?

WITNESS: Correct.

WILMOTT: And you told us a little bit about that when you worked at Arizona state hospital. Is that right?

OK. So, that`s prior to your doctorate, right?

WITNESS: That`s correct.

WILMOTT: And that`s why you`re called an intern or a resident?

WITNESS: That`s correct.

WILMOTT: All right. And the September of 2009 to January of 2010, it looks as though you overlapped. So at the same time you were working at the psychological assessment with the disability people, you were also working at Buwalda (ph) Psychological Services?

WITNESS: That`s correct.

WILMOTT: OK. And you worked there for just three months, right?

WITNESS: That`s correct.

WILMOTT: And it says that you conducted clinical interviews and did several assessment tools, right?

WITNESS: That`s correct.

WILMOTT: What kind of tools did you use here?

WITNESS: I was doing two different types of evaluations there. I was doing evaluations for CPS and was administering the WAIS and the MMPI. And also a variety of other tools depending on what the actual question was at hand.

WILMOTT: OK. Like what?

WITNESS: I`ve used, let`s see, I did some, the BACs (p), for example, with some children. The BAC is a measure of psychopathology in children.

WILMOTT: OK.

WITNESS: I`ve used the TAT.

WILMOTT: TAT?

WITNESS: Uh-huh.

WILMOTT: OK. What`s that for?

WITNESS: General psychopathology, if there was an indication that the person may have some more severe psychopathology, would give it to them.

WILMOTT: All right. What else?

WITNESS: Those are the two that come off the top of my head. But there was a variety. I had access fortunately to a number of different instruments there.

WILMOTT: Anything else that you can remember then?

WITNESS: Not off the top of my head.

WILMOTT: About how many hours a week did you work there?

WITNESS: I was there 20 hours also.

WILMOTT: So for the time that you overlapped with the other place, were you working full time at that point?

WITNESS: I was working full time across both places together, yes.

WILMOTT: OK. Well, from here it looks like from October of 2009 to January of 2010, it appears that you were just working at this Buwalda Place, right?

WITNESS: After -- yes. Well, clinically, I was teaching during that time.

WILMOTT: OK. Well, I`m just talking working at these places.

So, when you`re working at Buwalda, is that 20 hours a week?

WITNESS: It fluctuated, some weeks I would work a little bit more. I`d ask for more evaluations. Some weeks, less.

WILMOTT: OK. And typically, how many evaluations did you do in a week?

WITNESS: With that placement in particular?

WILMOTT: Yes.

WITNESS: I really would be -- just estimating.

WILMOTT: Sure.

WITNESS: Maybe four.

WILMOTT: OK.

WITNESS: Four to five.

WILMOTT: OK. And you worked that are at this Buwalda Place for three months, right?

WITNESS: Correct.

WILMOTT: And after that you moved on again, right?

WITNESS: Yes.

WILMOTT: Why did you leave there?

WITNESS: I decided I wanted to spend more time studying for my exam.

WILMOTT: OK. So, is that why you took two months off?

WITNESS: I didn`t take two months off.

WILMOTT: How long did you take off?

WITNESS: I was teaching during that time.

WILMOTT: OK. So, were you -- besides teaching, were you working at some other place?

WITNESS: No. I was just teaching.

WILMOTT: So is that the extra time that gave you to study for your exam?

WITNESS: Yes.

WILMOTT: You said you wanted to study for your exam, right?

OK. So during their time, how long did you take off from working besides teaching to study for your exam?

WITNESS: The time until I worked at Bayless Behavioral Health.

WILMOTT: When you worked at Bayless?

WITNESS: Yes.

WILMOTT: And that started in March of 2010, right?

WITNESS: That`s correct.

WILMOTT: And so basically from January of 2010 to March of 2010, you weren`t working in a clinical setting.

WITNESS: From -- say that again?

WILMOTT: You weren`t working in a clinical setting.

WITNESS: Tell me the time span again?

WILMOTT: January of 2010 to March of 2010.

WITNESS: Yes. That`s correct.

WILMOTT: All right. Then at Buwalda, you said -- is that the place you worked with kids who were involved in CPS, right?

WITNESS: Not just children, there are parents also.

WILMOTT: Right. But kids too.

WITNESS: Yes.

WILMOTT: OK. So during that time you were writing, doing psychological evaluations on the children and adults who came to you from CPS?

WITNESS: Yes.

WILMOTT: And these were evaluation, you weren`t giving them therapy at the same time.

WITNESS: I was not conducting therapy there. Correct.

WILMOTT: OK. Just these are evaluations.

WITNESS: Yes.

WILMOTT: These evaluations that you talked about needing to remain unbiased, right?

WITNESS: Yes.

WILMOTT: How many adults and children for CPS, do you think?

WITNESS: Total?

WILMOTT: Sure, during their time at Buwalda.

WITNESS: Again, that`s varied. It`s hard for me to give the specific number. Some weeks I would have one. Some weeks I`d have four. It would depend on the week.

WILMOTT: So over these couple of months, you would have anywhere between I guess four a month to 12 a month. Does that sound about right?

WITNESS: Sure. It`s, it`s hard to pinpoint exactly how many. I wasn`t sitting down and writing and tallying.

WILMOTT: OK. Well, part of these evaluations you learn about the -- like especially with the kids, let`s say for a second. Don`t you learn a lot about -- you have to know about their background, right?

WITNESS: Yes.

WILMOTT: Sometimes they`re going to tell you about where they`ve come from.

WITNESS: Yes.

WILMOTT: If they`re in a foster home or homeless.

WITNESS: Yes.

WILMOTT: And sometimes you learn that they have been beaten.

WITNESS: Yes.

WILMOTT: And sometimes these children might not have anyone to really count on them at this point, right? Because they`re coming to you, they might be involved in CPS.

WITNESS: It`s potentially, yes.

WILMOTT: In other words, you`ve dealt with these children who had a myriad of problems in their life, right?

WITNESS: Yes.

WILMOTT: So, during this time that you`re dealing with these children, as a human being, you`re saying not ever did you feel one ounce of compassion for any of these children since you were evaluating them?

WITNESS: When I walked in there and met with them? No. Did I feel compassion immediately off the bat? No.

WILMOTT: No, no, no. I`m not talking immediately after that because you don`t know anything about them. But I`m talking about, you know, listening to their hard stories and how they might have been beaten or how they might have been homeless. After listening to this, as an evaluator, you`re telling us, because you`re able to be unbiased, not one ounce of compassion?

WITNESS: I was able to feel some compassion but not in the way that would make me biased.

WILMOTT: OK. So you were able to feel some compassion then.

WITNESS: At some point. It depends on the scenario.

WILMOTT: OK. So, at some point, defending on the scenario, you as an evaluator, can feel compassion for someone you`re evaluating.

WITNESS: It`s possible.

WILMOTT: It`s possible. And when this possibility arises, you have some type of compassion, you`re saying that you were able to, in your -- let`s see, at this point, it would be -- well, you didn`t have your license, yet, right? At the time we`re talking?

WITNESS: Correct.

WILMOTT: And so at this point, during your practice, then, you would be able to have this compassion and remain unbiased, right?

WITNESS: Absolutely.

WILMOTT: OK. And at this point in time, you really didn`t have much experience. You just got your doctorate a year before, right?

WITNESS: That`s incorrect.

WILMOTT: So you had lots of experience.

WITNESS: I had experience.

WILMOTT: OK. Lots of experience?

WITNESS: I started seeing patients in 2004.

WILMOTT: OK. So when you start seeing patients, then, that`s what gives you experience, then, is that what you mean?

WITNESS: Yes.

WILMOTT: OK. And so, your education isn`t necessary?

WITNESS: Necessary for what?

WILMOTT: Well, to have the knowledge to do what you do?

WITNESS: Of course, it`s necessary.

WILMOTT: But you just told me that experience is also necessary too, right?

WITNESS: The first time I saw patients was in 2004. It was the first time I had experience in seeing patients in a therapeutic and evaluative role.

WILMOTT: OK. So, if you`ve been seeing patients since 2004, and now, we`re talking about a time in 2009, for a few months into 2010, right, when you`re seeing these CPS kids, right?

WITNESS: Correct.

WILMOTT: So in that time, you had seen patients from 2004 until 2009, right?

WITNESS: Yes.

WILMOTT: So that five year experience of seeing patients is, was enough for you to be able to remain unbiased whenever you felt compassion for one of your evaluations.

WITNESS: Yes.

WILMOTT: And so a five year --

PINSKY: We`re going to hit the pause button right here. You will not miss a minute of this trial.

Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Our panel`s been listening and watching. Let`s see what they`ve got to say, Teresa.

Let`s start first with Leo Terrell and head around the horn here.

Leo, what`s your thoughts on the defense` performance today?

LEO TERRELL, ATTORNEY: The defense performance right now is very good. Dr. Drew, it`s not how well the expert testifies on direct. It`s how well she stands up on cross. And she`s being crossed on her qualifications. They`re trying to show she doesn`t have a lot of experience.

PINSKY: Jenny, your thoughts?

JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: Well, actually, initially, I was a little concerned about the whole time she took off in 2009 and 2010. However, when she said she had four years or five years being in a clinical setting, I felt a little bit better. I still think Jennifer Wilmott is a little argumentative. I understand it`s a cross examination.

But I like this witness for the prosecution.

PINSKY: Mark? She`s not as argumentative as Martinez, right?

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: I would agree with that. I thought this witness was wonderful on direct. But you don`t judge a witness based on direct. It`s like judging someone on the first date. You`ve got to wait until the stuff comes out.

Now, we`re in the infancy stages of cross. I do like the defense attorney`s demeanor. She has scored no points yet. But we`re at the beginning stages right now.

PINSKY: Teresa, she to me behaves on the stand like somebody. The witness, this is what we`re wanting from a psychologist. This is what I`ve been wanting anyway.

STRASSER: I agree. At the beginning of the day, she came across measured, methodical. She was persuasive. She was likeable. Now I feel like the defense is doing a decent job at highlighting her relative inexperience.

PINSKY: She`s a youngster. That`s for sure.

All right. Let`s hit the play button again and get you guys back to the Jodi Arias trial. We are not going to let you miss one second of this trial.

Back to it.

WILMOTT: And so, of five years of experience with these evaluations, that`s enough then.

WITNESS: I`m not saying that`s enough. It was enough for me.

WILMOTT: OK, enough for you to be able to remain unbiased even though you can feel some compassion.

WITNESS: Correct.

WILMOTT: And these evaluations that you`re conducting and that you`re talking about for these five years, these are supervised, right?

WITNESS: Yes.

WILMOTT: So in other words, you`re not allowed to do them by yourself.

WITNESS: Under the supervision of a psychologist.

WILMOTT: So, you can`t do them by yourself?

WITNESS: That`s correct.

WILMOTT: And the psychologist, that`s somebody who`s licensed, right?

WITNESS: That`s correct.

WILMOTT: And the psychologist is the one who`s watching over you or to make sure that your evaluations are done appropriately.

WITNESS: Correct.

WILMOTT: Wouldn`t you agree, somebody who is just coming in to doing evaluations, even let`s say in 2004, won`t you agree that you learn along the way how to do them, don`t you?

WITNESS: In school, yes.

WILMOTT: So you think you learned how to do evaluations in school. And when you get out in 2004, you conducted them perfectly?

WITNESS: I would never say perfectly. I think that`s extreme. But what you find is the bulk of information that you learn is certainly in school, in education.

WILMOTT: OK. So then the experience that we were just talking about doesn`t matter so much as schooling does.

WITNESS: I would say that schooling takes a priority over it. By the time we, I got to the point that you`re referencing, I was doing these independently.

The -- I`m not taking away that the psychologist was certainly there in the sense that I was practicing under the psychologist`s license. I was a person sitting in the room. I was the person administering the test, interpreting the test and writing up the report completely independently.

WILMOTT: OK.

And the psychologist was reviewing your work, right?

WITNESS: Yes.

WILMOTT: And that failsafe is to make sure that people without licenses are doing it correctly, right?

WITNESS: Correct. And that`s what I do now for students.

WILMOTT: OK. In fact, you did that right as soon as you got your license, didn`t you?

WITNESS: Yes.

WILMOTT: You started supervising students?

WITNESS: That`s correct.

WILMOTT: OK.

You started working at Bayless Behavior Health Services in March of 2010, right?

WITNESS: Correct.

WILMOTT: And as a fellow, you worked there from March of 2010 until August of 2010. Is that right?

WITNESS: Correct.

WILMOTT: And then in August of 2010, that`s when you get your license.

WITNESS: In July.

WILMOTT: Oh, July. OK. Is that right?

WITNESS: Correct.

WILMOTT: So then in August of 2010 you stay at Bayless, but now you`re considered a psychologist.

WITNESS: And the director of the agency.

WILMOTT: So they hired you on as director of the entire agency as soon as you got your license.

WITNESS: Immediately.

WILMOTT: OK. And how many people did you supervise?

WITNESS: It was a large agency, so the numbers fluctuated over time.

WILMOTT: Uh-huh.

WITNESS: So generally there was roughly about 30 masters level students and doctorate level anywhere, four, five.

WILMOTT: OK. So this is all at one time? You would have to supervise 30 master level people?

WITNESS: The way that it was structured was that I had a couple of, handful of people that were underneath me that I supervised them and they would supervise the remaining of the students. But the way that the agency worked is that many of the -- I misspoke, not students, staff.

Many of the staff would come to my on a regular basis to provide that additional supervision. I have served has a secondary supervisor for all of them.

WILMOTT: OK. Secondary supervisor. I`m a little bit confused. So you supervised a handful of what?

WITNESS: Masters level staff.

WILMOTT: And those masters level staff would supervise whom?

WITNESS: They would also supervise other staff, other masters level staff.

WILMOTT: OK. And when you`re talking staff, are these people who are masters level seeking their masters in psychology or what?

WITNESS: Not seeking, they have their degrees already in counseling or social work.

WILMOTT: And these are the people that you were supervising?

WITNESS: And these are just students.

WILMOTT: OK. And the students are whom?

WITNESS: The students were masters level and doctoral level. So those were the individuals who were in the process of obtaining their degrees.

WILMOTT: OK. All right. So you supervised the people who had their decrees and the people who had their degrees supervised people who didn`t have their degrees.

WITNESS: No, I supervised them both. Some have their degrees and some that`s just one, because I was one of the only psychologists there. We didn`t have a lot of psychologists there. I participated in supervising the doctoral students.

WILMOTT: OK. So you didn`t supervise the master level students?

WITNESS: I was the one that was in charge of the entire program. Again for those students, I served as a secondary supervisor. I had master level therapists that were underneath me and they were supervising the students. And then they come to me as a secondary, because in this field there`s a lot of stuff that changes on a day-to-day basis. Sometimes the supervisors weren`t available, sometimes the case was complex and they needed help.

WILMOTT: OK. How many psychologists were at Bayless at the time you were there?

WITNESS: It changed.

PINSKY: We will hit the pause button again and get right back to the trial after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: My behavior bureau has been listening. Let`s go to them. Joins us first, I`ve got Cheryl Arutt.

Cheryl, I want to go to you first and ask about the borderline personality diagnosis. The psychologist on the stand is somebody you and I have discussed is the sort of professional we like to see on the stand.

She called Jodi borderline. Your thoughts?

CHERYL ARUTT, FORENSIC PYSCHOLOGIST: I really loved seeing this psychologist be being ethical, being professional, doing what we`d like to see happening. Yes, accurate diagnosis, borderline personality describes Jodi Arias.

PINSKY: Jenny, I want to go to you next. Do you know -- have you ever had a relationship with somebody with borderline traits? You know what that means, how chaotic that can feel to be around somebody with those sorts of issues?

HUTT: I do believe --

PINSKY: I don`t mean to single you out. I can ask that of anybody for that matter. But you`re next up.

HUTT: I believe that of can, Dr. Drew. But yes, I do think I have had some experience with that kind of behavior person. So yes, does Jodi strike my as that kind of individual, sure. I like the psychologist. But I understand she`s young, but she`s a whippersnapper. You can give her a very big job, young.

PINSKY: Young. Listen, she`s newly trained. She`s on the job. She`s supervising other people.

HUTT: I like her.

PINSKY: Abe, we`re calling -- you know, some of the things you`ve told us about Jodi sort of fit with that borderline diagnosis. Where are you at after listening to the trial today?

ABE ADBELHADI: Well, I think this is a very credible witness. I`m excited to see what happens. And it doesn`t seem leak three`s much of a competition for the defense. So I think the defense has their ands full. This isn`t going to the last couple of witnesses that we`ve seen in my opinion.

PINSKY: And finally, Danine, your thoughts?

DANINE MANETTE, AUTHOR: I don`t think Jodi is nearly as borderline or crazy as she wants us to believe she is think she is. I think that she`s extremely calculated and she completely knows what she was doing. What she was doing at the time and what she`s doing now.

PINSKY: So, Danine, Cheryl says psychopath. We say borderline and psychopath. I`ll be interested to hear what the witness says.

We`ll hit the play button. We`re going to get you back to the trial. We`ll check in from time to time with my panels. Now to the trial.

WILMOTT: At the time that you were supervising.

WITNESS: It changed over time. I was at the position for two years.

WILMOTT: OK. I mean were there -- what`s the lowest amount?

WITNESS: Two?

WILMOTT: OK. And what`s the highest amount?

WITNESS: There wasn`t a lot of doctoral level.

Are you including psychiatrist in that also?

WILMOTT: Psychologist and psychiatrist, sure.

WITNESS: OK. Maybe five.

WILMOTT: Five would be the highest?

WITNESS: Hmm-hmm.

WILMOTT: Is that a yes?

WITNESS: Yes.

WILMOTT: OK. And did that include you as well.

WITNESS: No you said did I supervise.

WILMOTT: No, no. Not supervised. How many psychologists or psychiatrists? You said there were not that many psychologists in Bayless.

WITNESS: Right.

WILMOTT: So, where there other psychologists, licensed psychologists that work at Bayless?

WITNESS: Yes.

WILMOTT: OK. All right. That`s what I`m asking about.

WITNESS: OK.

WILMOTT: Not who you supervised.

WITNESS: OK.

WILMOTT: So, is that the numbers you just went through?

WITNESS: So the number of licensed psychologists there were four.

WILMOTT: Is that something that remained the same?

WITNESS: Well, some people would become licensed. So it would change over time as more became licensed.

WILMOTT: OK. All right. You talked about supervising some of the master level people, right?

WITNESS: Correct.

WILMOTT: And you agree, you don`t know Ms. Alyce LaViolette, right?

WITNESS: I do not know her.

WILMOTT: You`ve never met her.

WITNESS: That`s correct.

WILMOTT: And you`ve certainly never supervised her, right?

WITNESS: That`s correct.

WILMOTT: And you`re aware that shy got her masters degree in 1980, right? Do you know this?

WITNESS: No.

WILMOTT: Well, if I told you she got her masters level in 1980, you wouldn`t have been able to supervise her way back, then, right?

WITNESS: You mean before she was licensed?

WILMOTT: No, no, she got here masters --

WITNESS: Interesting.

WILMOTT: -- in 1980. You were what? Were you just born? Or you wouldn`t be around to supervise her is what I`m saying?

WITNESS: Correct.

WILMOTT: All right. Let`s talk a little bit about your internship at Arizona state hospital, OK? That was, let`s see, August 2008 to August of 2009, right?

WITNESS: Correct.

WILMOTT: And it looks like were you doing forensic evaluations there?

WITNESS: Yes.

WILMOTT: And specifically, you worked with guilty acceptance sane (ph) people.

WITNESS: With that aspect of the hospital. There`s three different aspects of the hospital.

WILMOTT: OK. So, you worked with -- what type of people? What type of populations were you working with there?

WITNESS: There`s three sides of the hospital. The guilty acceptance sane (ph). There is also the side of the hospital that`s referred to, as a non- criminal side, the civil side.

WILMOTT: Civil.

WITNESS: These are individuals who have been in and out of hospitals and need a longer stay residence, sometimes for several years. They have not engaged in a crime -- it`s possible think have engaged in a crime, but that`s not why they`re there.

WILMOTT: OK.

WITNESS: There`s also the side of the hospital that houses the sexually violent people.

WILMOTT: OK. So, those are often referred to as SVP.

WITNESS: SVP.

WILMOTT: OK. So did you do evaluations on all three different sections?

WITNESS: I did evaluations on the civil and the forensic side, the GEI (ph) side, not on the SVP.

WILMOTT: So, you didn`t to any evaluation with the SVP?

WITNESS: I did therapy.

WILMOTT: You did you therapy with them? Oh, OK.

WITNESS: Yes.

WILMOTT: All right. So is that the only group, is that the only population that you did therapy with? Or did you do it with anybody else?

WITNESS: I did it with the civil and at the forensic also.

WILMOTT: OK. And --

PINSKY: We`ll hit the pause button right here and get back to the trial right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Back with my co-host, TV personality, Teresa Strasser. Teresa, you`ve been watching this today. Do you agree the defense is doing well with this sort of cross?

STRASSER: Dr. Drew, are you seeing what I`m seeing? I`m not an expert on borderline personality disorder or SBP (ph), but I`m an expert on stage fright, because I`ve had it my whole life. This witness to me looks like she`s suffering severe performance anxiety, the fidgeting, the dry mouth. It`s hard for me to watch.

PINSKY: Maybe it`s why she`s so flip (ph), but I still think she`s good. I think she`s doing it in a systematic way. I think she`s on her game. And I think we`ll get some real information. Hopefully, the jury will consume that. Let`s go ahead and hit the play button now get you guys back to the trial. Again, you`re not going to miss a minute here on HLN. Push that play button, here we go.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And you said you used forensic and neuropsychological testing instruments.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Which ones did you use?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All of them.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The whole (INAUDIBLE) battery --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- which includes numerous tests in there, California -- the CBLT, the RBLT.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s numerous tests, the MMPI, the MCMI.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The back. Keep going?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let me ask you this. Did you do any, did you do any -- did you ever use the PDS when you were there?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Did you write reports when you did -- did you do any evaluations?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At the state hospital?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And were those for the guilty acceptance sane? Is that the forensic side that you did?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did it on the civil side also.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So, you wrote reports then?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And who were you writing reports for?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For the hospital.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So, the state?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The state also.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So, the state hospital was -- would be the one who was seeking reports from you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE; The specific referral would come from the psychiatrist.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. All right. And then, you would be writing reports that the state hospital would be using?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. When you were giving therapy to the sexually violent persons, how long did you do that for?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For the year that I was doing my residency.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And, during that year, then you would, I would imagine, become familiar with this type of people, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. That was not the first time that I worked with that population.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So, you were familiar with them, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And, being familiar with people who -- well, you also worked -- prior to this, you also worked with people having to do with sex crimes?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And when was that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 2007.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And is that at -- is that when you were in the prison or is that at Michigan State?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The prison.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The prison. OK. And so, you specifically, the criminal sexual conduct group?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Correct.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So, those two times you were working with people having to do with sex crimes. Is that right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s been other terms also but --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know in your future you did it as well, too.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Correct.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So, when you`re working with this type of people, you would learn how to deal with them, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And giving them therapy, you would talk to them?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would do therapy with them, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. When you do therapy with somebody, you talk to them, don`t you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. And when you`re talking with them, you are -- you`re -- well in a therapeutic setting, right? So, there`s -- you want them to open up with you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because you want them to tell you what they`re thinking.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to be able to appropriately do treatment with them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. And to appropriately do treatment, you need to know from them what`s going on, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Correct.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And in dealing with these people who commit sexual crimes, you`re aware that they often tend to minimize what they`ve done, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And they often tend to deny what they`ve done.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And they often distort their offending behaviors, don`t they?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s correct.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And in these situations, it wouldn`t be unusual for their family members to not know what was going on, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, you think they tell their family everything that they`ve done?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, it wouldn`t be unusual for the family to not know about the offensive behavior.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I disagree.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you think, then, that the family would know?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wouldn`t say a hundred percent of the time, but I don`t think it would be unusual.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, in other words, these sex offenders or people with criminal sexual crimes, they might minimize and deny about their acts, but they`re going to run and tell their family what they`ve done?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Lack of foundation -- and speculation as to whether they tell their family.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She just agreed to all that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you ask the question again?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sure. So, these people who are denying and distorting --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sure.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- what they`ve done, their offensive behaviors, right? That`s your experience.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. They have a tendency to do that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And so, people who do that then, you`re saying that then, that the family would still know their offensive behaviors.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is correct.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And because they`re going to tell their friends about it too, then?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, because a lot of sex offenders have a proclivity for engaging in sexual crimes that then lead to a crime that is then brought to the attention of the family or they catch them in the act or the police catch them and become part of the system.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, OK, OK. So, the family knows about it because the family was the victim, right? The family could know about it because a member of the family was a victim?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s one reason it could be.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Or the family caught them?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s another potential reason amongst others.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So -- but these are the reasons or the person gets arrested and then the family knows about it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or the person is engaging in behaviors that would be consistent with whatever their sex crime is. So, for example, if there was a pedophile, we would expect to see consistent behavior with that, then engaging in activities with children frequently, having child pornography, engaging in behaviors that would be suggestive of that that would indicate to the family.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you think the family`s is going to always know about this, then, because they`re not going to hide it from the family.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Always? No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So, the family`s going to find out about it when the person gets arrested.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s a potential for them to find out when they`re arrested amongst the other examples that I just gave you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK --

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: See, I like this witness. She`s saying things stuff we`ve been saying here in this program. For a pedophile to show up such -- repeated the pattern of behavior overtime, not just somebody who throws down a magazine one day. It doesn`t make any sense at all. All right. Let`s hit the play -- I think we`re going to hit the pause button here. that`s what we call that and get right back to the trial after this brief break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: All right. Now, we are getting back to the trial. Again, you`re not going to miss a minute of this trial. The play button has been hit. And let`s see if we can get back to it right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. These people who distort and deny their offensive behavior, though, do you also think that their friends are going to know about it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would say the same answer as I just said for the family.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And then, same with their co-workers. Their co- workers are going to know about it, too.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have the same answer I just gave.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So, everybody but you, the therapist is going to know about their offensive behavior.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think you`re mischaracterizing what I`ve been highlighting.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, but you`re saying that these people deny and distort these things when you`re talking to them about the behavior, but somehow, their co-workers and their friends and their family are going to see these offensive behaviors that they deny to you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m saying that they have a tendency to deny and distort, that is correct.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That doesn`t mean that it`s not possible and doesn`t happen frequently for people in their life to be aware of it because of the things that I highlighted earlier such as engaging in other behaviors that would be suggestive of, for example, the pedophilic behavior.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And later on in your career, well, I think just, I guess just recently at Bayless, right, you worked with risk assessments? Sexual risk assessments, psychosexual risk assessments?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And that`s what you`re talking about as far as also working with people who are involved with criminal sexual activity, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That was one.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s others.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. In April of 2008, I`m going to when you were an evaluator about the prevention and training services in Lansing, Michigan. Do you see that in your CV?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And you said you worked there for two months?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And during that time in your CV, you`re talking about conducting individual unstructured interviews, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And unstructured means -- what?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The difference between structured and unstructured, structured would be a very specific format that would be laid out with a test that says you have to ask exactly this question, this question, this question, rather than a typical clinical interview that does not specifically in the case (ph) that you have to ask specific questions.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So, you were talking to these people in an unstructured interview.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Similar to what a clinical interview is, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Well, you didn`t put clinical interview, right? You wrote unstructured interview.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And, in particular in your CV, on this particular part, you said that you were interviewing domestic batterers and alcohol abusers, is that right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And in this particular part of your CV, you actually noted that you work for domestic batterers, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that you work treatment plans.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right? And that was for two months?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that was before you got your doctorate.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that was before you got your license.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s correct.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, is that considered practicing before you get your doctorate?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So, at what point do you start practicing? What degree do you have to have to consider a practice?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It depends on how you use terminology. How are you using it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, if you`re practicing as a psychologist, let`s say, so, if you`re practicing as a psychologist, when does that practice begin?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you become a psychologist.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So, when you become a psychologist, that`s when you get your doctorate, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. When do you become a psychologist?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You become a psychologist if you take the license and the exam after you completed your doctorate.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So, you can start your practice as a psychologist after you get your license.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: By using the term psychologist, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. All right. With regard to these domestic batterers that you talked to for two months, you didn`t do any type of tools, assessment tools on them?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Be back right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: All right, now. Let us hit that play button and get you guys back to the trial, so you don`t miss one second of it. Here we go.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. Let`s talk a little bit about the research that you`ve laid out in your CV, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sure.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The last research is -- the last research you`ve conducted was in April of 2008?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you haven`t done any research since then.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I`ve become a clinician.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So, you don`t do any research at all anymore?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And, ultimately, the research that was in 2008, that was for your dissertation?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s correct.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you used that research to receive your doctorate?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I completed it for my dissertation which led to receiving my doctorate.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And after you just graduated, let`s see, your bachelor`s degree looks like there was -- you worked in a lab as a graduate research assistant?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you talking about after my undergraduate degree?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m sorry. I`m talking about August 2004 to August 2007. So, that`s during your masters, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And you worked as a graduate research assistant?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s correct.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that was just after your bachelor`s then, right? You started doing that after your bachelor`s?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s correct.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And after your bachelor`s, in this particular part of your CV, you talk about that you, I guess, you interviewed mothers and children who were experiencing domestic violence or did you interview them as part of your research?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re referring to two different areas of the CV.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, you`re right. I`m sorry. I`m referring to 2003 to 2004, right? August 2003 to 12 of 2004.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And during that time, you were a graduate research assistant, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is correct.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. And as part of your research that you did within -- during that time, you interviewed mothers and children?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not children.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, not children. Did you just interview mothers?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mothers.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that was about who were experiencing domestic violence.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And what kind of tools did you use to do these interviews?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were research tools.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So, what does that mean?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Meaning that they weren`t used for clinical purposes. They were used to collect data for research.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So, you weren`t doing any kind of therapy?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. This was a research project.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So, you`re just collecting data?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s correct. For purposes of research.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. And so, did you have a specific interview form that you would know which questions to ask?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And you would just follow through that form?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, that, and give them the questionnaires that were associated with the research study.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So, in other words, there were specific questions that you`re asking them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. And did you stray from that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When needed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And with regard to that, then, when you would -- how about how many people did you interview. Do you remember?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do not have a memory of the number.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. And particularly, in your CV, you specifically mention here that you collected data for a study about for mothers and children experiencing domestic violence, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s correct.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And you`ve done a couple of lectures?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: More than a couple.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you have a monthly lecture series at -- that you did at Bayless?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Weekly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Weekly? Is your CV updated? Does it say weekly in your CV?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where are you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m on page 5. Under selective lectures.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right. So, there was weekly lectures. And I would give a lecture myself monthly, but I was in charge of all the lectures.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So, my question is, does your CV say monthly lectures?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And so, you would give a lecture monthly?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Roughly, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And --

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Pause and go to break. Back with the final moments of this trial after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: OK. Now, we`re going to hit the play button and get you guys back to the trial for finishing, just the finishing moments of trial for today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anybody and there were other people who were giving lectures as well?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The other psychologists.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And these lectures were given to whom?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To our staff and our students.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So, this is all in house then?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In that one in particular, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And prior to that, you gave a lecture to -- that was termed the disruptive physician?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the audience on that was health care lawyers, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That was in May of 2012?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And prior to that, you gave a lecture to middle school students.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes -- no.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You didn`t lecture opportunity knocks at (INAUDIBLE) middle school?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not to students.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Who was that to?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To staff.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The staff at the school?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hmm, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is that a yes? OK. And that was in March of 2012?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And, there`s no lectures prior to that, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s no lectures that I have listed on there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And then no lectures after August of 2012.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But I`ve given other lectures.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, you just didn`t put them on your CV?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right. That`s correct.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So, you`ve added things in your experience, but you just haven`t put it on your CV.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right. So, lectures, for example, I don`t spend time adding stuff like that to my CVs because it`s secondary.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s not important to you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not that it`s not important, it`s just secondary to seeing my patients.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, secondary to your patients, you see the need not to add it to your CV then.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t use my CV very often.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Well, you remember when we had an interview with you, right, a couple months ago?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And when we walked on that interview, you handed us an updated CV, didn`t you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. But I guess, it wasn`t really totally updated.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Let`s --

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: That does it for court for today. Thank you, Teresa, for being here with me. Thank you all for watching as well. Reminder that "HLN After Dark" is going to begin, but a moment, back with more behavior bureau. HLN starts now "After Dark."

END