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Psyching Out Jodi; Jodi`s Trial Coverage

Aired April 17, 2013 - 21:00:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): The Jodi Arias trial reaches the half century mark. It is day 50. The defense rests.

Did Jodi`s attorney save her from herself?

JODIA ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: I think of all the things that Travis` family is going to miss out on with Travis. He had brothers and sisters and I have brothers and sisters.

PINSKY: No wonder his siblings look like this.

Plus, we have never before seen video of Travis until now.

The man behind the camera witnessed the trouble between his friend and Jodi Arias.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was always some tension there, always a little bit awkward, a little bit different.

PINSKY: He is here to report to us what he saw.

Let`s get started.



PINSKY: Good evening. Thank you for joining us.

My co-host is television personality, Teresa Strasser.

Now, the trial ended earlier. It`s believed that Jodi Arias was sick and that put a stop to proceedings. She in fact did appear pale. We know she`s made migraines, maybe something else.

What do you think, Teresa?

TERESA STRASSER, CO-HOST: Well, listen, I got a migraine. It was acronym soup today. It was TSI, PTSD, DSM, MCMI.

At the end of the day, I still feel no closer to understanding the one and only question in this case, when Jodi Arias slaughtered Travis Alexander, was she afraid that she would be killed or hurt? I still feel no closer to understanding.

PINSKY: I completely agree with you. It seems that we have forgotten that question, in fact. We have so much other lovely material to dig through.

We are joined by former prosecutor and author of "Guilt by Degrees," Marcia Clark, attorney with, Mark Eiglarsh, and attorney Lauren Lake.

Now, the prosecution`s so-called "mental health lady", she`s psychologist. And the question: is she destroying the defense? Or are they getting at her? Either way, Jodi kept her head buried in books today, she barely looked up. Take a look at this.


WITNESS: She`s sitting right over there, with a beige-ish shirt.

JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: Can you just point (ph) her out or anything?

WITNESS: In Ms. Arias` booking profile, the way she took the picture, she kind of smiled as though it was a high school photo rather than a booking picture you would typically see. I found it strange and immature that there was, again, some immaturity there, such as her appearance was that she was described as being happy as hell.

MARTINEZ: Over 40 hours, is there a requirement, for example, that you see somebody that many hours?

WITNESS: No. It`s extreme, extreme.

MARTINEZ: When you say extreme, what does that mean?

WITNESS: Just a clinical interview makes it even more extreme.

MARTINEZ: Do you ever provide gifts to the person you are evaluating?

WITNESS: No. That`s inappropriate.

MARTINEZ: Isn`t it true on a separate occasion you actually provided the defendant with a 5th?


MARTINEZ: Sir, do you remember providing her with a book called "Erroneous Zones?"


MARTINEZ: Have you ever provided a book that may be a self-help book as part of this evaluation?

WITNESS: They could use to then give the false pretense they have whatever it says in the book, speaking about this case, that`s consistent with what I just gave you right now.

JENNIFER WILLMOTT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Two open cases with -- two cases of criminal --

WITNESS: Would you like me to review it again? I have six total cases open right now. They did find some inconsistencies of what she was saying.

WILLMOTT: You know what? The interesting thing is you`re talking to me about I inconsistencies, but that`s not what we`re talking about. Nowhere on your CV does it ever talk about you doing research with trauma victims?

WITNESS: Sure, it does. There`s several of them.

WILLMOTT: Which ones?

WITNESS: We should go back to the research we talked about yesterday.


The only way that Mr. Martinez had these test questions is he got them from you, right?

WITNESS: I didn`t give them to him, no.

WILLMOTT: You didn`t give him the test questions?

WITNESS: We reviewed them together. At the time we reviewed them, we were talking about concept of PTSD. We were PTS, the test and reviewing it together. You`re trying to put a value on something by making it subjective by talking about it in that manner.

WILLMOTT: (INAUIDIBLE) are not part of the scoring?

WITNESS: You`re confusing terms again.

WILLMOTT: I don`t think I`m confusing anything. I`m asking you about summary scales. You don`t keep up with domestic and new research in the fields by regularly reading domestic violence journals?

WITNESS: No. That`s not what I`m saying.

WILLMOTT: You do keep up with domestic violence journals.

WITNESS: You`re talking about journals and I`m talking about research articles. Those are very different things.


PINSKY: Beth Karas, court ended right after lunch. Is it in fact the case that Jodi caused the proceedings to stop? She got sick?

BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: Well, it appears to be, although no one is confirming that. The judge certainly didn`t tell the jury that she just said that something came up. But it did appear that Jodi Arias wasn`t feeling well. And then after the lunch break, she came into court, and then left, packed up all her things, left with the deputy and we were told court is going to be in adjournment for about another 35 minutes and we thought, oh, maybe Jodi is going to take some medicine, they`re waiting for it to kick in.

And then, at 2:30 our time, 5:30 Eastern Time, the judge came back in, Jodi came in, jury came in and she said something has come up.

So, we kind of put it together thought and probably Jodi Arias is sick. But no one has confirmed that to me.

PINSKY: She looked a little pale during the testimony today, do you agree?

KARAS: Yes. She did. And, in fact, some people thought she was kind of putting -- she had her hand over her mouth, looked like she was trying to prevent herself from vomiting when she came back in the courtroom at the end of the day just before everyone was excused or end of the court day.

So, it may indeed be the case. She`s not eating well. She seems to be getting thinner. We know that she has a tendency to get migraines. She has allowed to have some over the counter medicine with her in -- I had a bug in front of me -- in the courtroom. But that`s with the sheriff`s department`s permission.

PINSKY: All right. Thanks, Beth. Jodi spent most of her time looking down, writing, doodling, keep her hand over the mouth, trying not to vomit while the expert witness was on the stand.

All right. Cheryl, I want to go out to you, first, to me, this expert witness, it says Cheryl but I don`t think Cheryl is on my panel right now.

Is Cheryl there, yes or no? Cheryl, you`re there. Good. I just can`t see you on my monitor.

This witness is somebody that we very much what we want to see on the stand. She`s using our language. She`s speaking our language that professionals can understand.

Do you think the defense had any effect on her testimony today?

CHERYL ARUTT, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I think that the defense seemed to be growing more and more desperate. I think that this was exactly the kind of forensic expert that we like to see -- concise, direct, clarifying when she could. But she wasn`t getting into senseless circular power struggles. She knew her stuff and she said it.

PINSKY: Marcia, what do you think?

MARCIA CLARK, FORMER PROSECUTOR: I think so, too. I think the defense is losing the jury here. That`s great that you have all these acronyms and you can throw them around, MMPI and all that rest of the stuff, and the jury is going what? What?

Make your point. Tell them what you`re talking about. You know, don`t talk about scales and numbers.

And trying to get this witness a home run by impeaching her about the numbers and whether she scaled correctly is never going to impress this jury and you won`t score a home run on this witness. She`s an excellent, strong expert witness.

And all you can do is chip away. But do it in a meaningful way. I think they`re failing to do it. I think she`s just winding up losing the jury and making them tired.

PINSKY: Mark, I want to ask you, is there any sense, I notice Jodi doesn`t talk to her attorney for instance? She seems kind of check out. Is she the kind of client that you wouldn`t want to be talking during the proceedings, or difficult to manage do you suspect?

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: OK. A couple of things. There are some clients I don`t want to talk to at trial. I am prepared and know what I want to say and it`s distracting.

The second thing is as we`ve learned from the words that allegedly flowed from Willmott`s lips which many people are saying was an expletive, you don`t want to be talking because of the cameras and microphones are there, you have to be careful. If anything, you write things down, you pass note. I don`t think he has to talk to her during trial.

PINSKY: And, Lauren, I see you shaking your head. You agree with this?

LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: I do. First of all, I want to say that the defense is desperate. Let`s be clear: this is an uphill battle.

This case against her is incredibly overwhelming. But I will say this, I think they scored a couple of points, Dr. Drew. I think they discredited her in terms of her kind of beefing it up to eight years of practice when really she`s only been licensed for three and I think they talked to her about various journals and articles she read but she couldn`t remember titles.

And those are the small things they`re going to be able to do. Not much more. There`s not much more they can do at this point.

ARUTT: I totally disagree.

EIGLARSH: Let me jump in. I got to defend Laura. I`m going to tell you why, because she`s going to get all the hate mail.

I am getting it if I say anything negative about anybody on the defense side. But what all she`s saying is, look, the jurors are instructed to keep an open mind. They can`t form any definitive conclusions. We know the human nature is contrary to that. But some are.

But the few who have not formed fixed conclusions can if they want to look negative upon this witness for having less experience than the other defense witnesses. That`s all.

PINSKY: Yes, but --

EIGLARSH: That doesn`t mean that`s how I feel.

CLARK: That`s absolutely true. That`s the one thing they can make and why I agree with Laura as well. They can chip away at this and say, you`re young. And by the time you were practicing, by the time the other witness LaViolette was practicing for 20 years, you weren`t even born, and all that corny stuff. Great. OK, fine.

She`s young. She`s not as experienced. That doesn`t mean she`s not as smart.

To me, she comes across as way more professional and way more objective than LaViolette. And the credibility counter goes way up for something like that when you`re talking about an expert witness. Would you like her as a prosecutor? Would you prefer she was a little older and more seasoned? Yes. That looks better.

But at the end of the day, it`s not going to matter she does have more credibility, very strong.

PINSKY: And, Cheryl, you and I know that sometimes, the new, hot, young professionals out of training, you know, they are loaded and locked and ready for action and they can really out-perform some of those of us who have been around for a while.

ARUTT: That`s right, Dr. Drew.

But I want to clarify something that was missed, she wasn`t padding her CV.

PINSKY: Right.

ARUTT: When she was asked specifically, how long have you been practicing, and then as a psychologist? You cannot use the word psychologist until you`re licensed. She truthfully had been practicing eight or nine years as a psych assistant, as a student but practicing, and then she was being precise by saying as a psychologist, three years.

PINSKY: All right. Guys, thank you for great --

EIGLARSH: I want to go back to something.

PINSKY: Mark, finish up.

EIGLARSH: Teresa -- Teresa made a great point at the top. If you don`t know whether she suffers from PTSD or whether she was abused, push all that aside. The issue is what happened at the time she killed Travis, that`s the issue and I can`t believe these jurors would excuse that.

PINSKY: And Teresa, that`s where we started, isn`t it?

STRASSER: Yes, exactly. I feel no closer to knowing that, although all the evidence seems to point me towards the conclusion at that moment she wasn`t scared for her life. But I don`t know.

PINSKY: Well, we`ve seen no evidence. That`s for sure.

Thank you, guys.

Jodi caught on tape, she says the grief experienced by -- get this -- Travis` family is only temporary. We will have that tape and we will have my behavior bureau`s reaction.

And later, tension between Jodi and Travis and the months leading up to his death. A man who saw that and took this exclusive video, entire video, and he is with us.



ARIAS: There`s just no reason I would ever want to hurt him. I think of all the things that Travis` family is going to miss out on with Travis. He had brothers and sisters and I have brothers and sisters. It`s not fair.

INVESTIGATOR: It`s not fair but this is where we are --

ARIAS: I mean, I know he`s in a good place and I know that he`s fine. I know he`s doing great. But what about all of his friends and all of his family that are here and they`re just going through all this and I know it`s temporary but it`s so very much right now.

I have to maintain my innocence. I can`t admit to doing something I haven`t done.

Has his family called today?


ARIAS: I`ve been wanting to call everyday, too, but I didn`t want to look obsessive, so I just tried to limit it to once a week.


PINSKY: Co-host Teresa Strasser, that video is so compelling, her thinking is so bizarre, even if she`s lying, it`s bizarre.

STRASSER: It`s the craziest thing I have heard about her since crawling through a doggy door. I`m not a grief counselor, Dr. Drew. But losing a sibling I would not qualify that as a temporary pain. I file that under permanent pain.

PINSKY: I know it`s a temporary thing and Travis is fine, you don`t need to worry about him, he`s cool. Wow!

Discussing this with us: clinical and forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt, Emily Moore, sex and relationship expert from TV`s "Miss Advised", Robi Ludwig, psychologist and author of "Till Death Do Us Part", and Abe Abdelhadi. He dated Jodi. He knew Travis.

Abe, I`ve been told that you had something you wanted to get off your chest right off the start. Some point you want to make. So, let`s get to it.

ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI: Because I need more to do with my time, I watched the interrogation interview tapes one thing I noticed very interesting she never once mentioned the gun in the closet miraculously appeared five years later. I would think that if you know about a gun in the closet, you`re being attack by two ninjas, which was the story she was pushing at that time, that she would actually run to the closet or have a story about running to the closet, to get the gun she never got because the ninjas got her. But she never mentioned the gun in the closet because the gun in the closet wasn`t there and now it`s here.

So, that was something that I just -- you know, watching this again made me wanted to bring that up.

PINSKY: And, Cheryl, the tears at this time are different -- feel different, not more authentic, frankly.

ARUTT: Definitely not.

PINSKY: Different than the ones that were on the stand. Isn`t that interesting?

ARUTT: That is. Dr. Drew, I was wondering what you thought about how all the kind of watching how she coming across. She said things about I didn`t want to look obsessive. She seemed to be floating this idea maybe he`ll have sympathy for me if I act really upset.

But I know he`s fine. She kept trying these two different gears.

PINSKY: Yes, right. She`s floating bizarre ideas to the questioner.

Emily, I want to go to you. I say, this is going to sound bizarre maybe, but I`m just reacting to how I sort of took this in intuitively, on the stand, the tears were about the gig is up, I`ve been caught, anxious having a panic attack.

Here, I think these were tears of flirtation.

EMILY MOORE, "MISS ADVISED": Tears of flirtation. They might have been. Her tears have never been representative of anything they seem to be. To me, that was like a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde emotional basket case, that was like rationalizing for one side saying something, her unconscious saying another thing, that it was all over the place.

And, probably, we have to remember she is a vixen. She probably is flirting in everything she does.

PINSKY: Right.

MOORE: A little undertone of I`m a vixen. And this is where I`m doing and flirting. She`s probably gotten attention in the past crying for men. Yes.


Emily, you guys missed it. I have a little monitor get to watch you guys on. And Robi, Cheryl and Teresa were all nodding their head in unison, in the same rhythm, Robi. So, I let you comment about that.

ROBI LUDWIG, AUTHOR: Well, I have the same idea, Dr. Drew. It was a lot of the damsel in distress. She is very seductive and she knows her beauty and smart about people. She understands the power she has on men.

So, yes, she was crying for herself. Very interesting, if I could chyron the words underneath the behavior, it was really -- well, the sadness is temporary, Travis is in a better place. Are you buying anything I am saying yet? I will cry a little harder in case you`re not.

PINSKY: Robi. Keep going. There`s something profound in that, because I really think these tapes tell us more about Jodi than anything else. We see the family having genuine reactions, we see the dad`s suspicion about how weird the daughter is. We see here -- the way it makes you feel tells you everything you know.

ABDELHADI: The temerity of her working --

LUDWIG: I think she`s really talking about her own feelings, too. Travis is in a better place. I know he`s OK.

That`s how she felt. She was happier to have him dead because then she didn`t have to worry about him cheating on her or leaving on her. She could control the situation. She was happy with the arrangement.

PINSKY: Abe, before you blurt out whatever you want to blurt out, I want to remind everybody, Abe had his hands -- where were they again when you dated her?

STRASSER: Careful.

PINSKY: I`m just saying.

ABDELHADI: You know what? This ain`t HBO. But thank you for playing.

All I simply wanted to say, though, however, was that she had the temerity to try to work this officer when he knows she did it. And he has the evidence. He`s got the photos.

I don`t know how she is that disconnected that she thinks she can actually work a guy when the punchline is you die. That`s not sexy -- 29 stab wounds, almost your head cut off, shot in the head. That`s not sexy.

I don`t understand this supposed allure she still thinks she has and she`s still working it.

PINSKY: But, Abe, I think that`s what makes you so angry. That you get angry every time, right?


PINSKY: You almost got sucked into the rabbit hole and you know what`s down there. And that makes you angry.

ABDELHADI: Well, I think it makes any guy angry. The thing that blows my mind, it wasn`t so much I got sucked into the rabbit hole, or what have you, although I probably have, who knows? But what really drives me crazy with all of this, is that she still thinks she can actually work it. And I don`t get it.

ARUTT: That`s a shameless psychopath.

PINSKY: And, Cheryl and I have maintained this all along, borderline features which now, Cheryl, has come up on the stand, with psychopathic tendencies that make her -- give her that cold-blooded quality, right?

ARUTT: Right.


Teresa, you have questions to the panel? I see you`re shaking your head vigorously. Go.

STRASSER: Something that stood out for me in the testimony is that she supposedly has a genius I.Q., in particularly in the area of verbal comprehension. She scored 138, close to genius.

But one verbal communication she couldn`t understand that she needed to was, I don`t want to be your boyfriend, I`m not going to be your husband. I`m not going to have kids with you. Maybe I`ll have sex with you but I don`t want you. She couldn`t hear that.

ABDELHADI: She`s articulate but she wasn`t intelligence. I think that`s a mistake we make in this society. For good looking, you put a sentence together, people think you`re bright. She`s anything but.

PINSKY: And, Robi, no emotional intelligence. That`s the main thing.

Go ahead.

LUDWIG: No. I think that`s where her disorder comes in. She could be very bright. Clearly, she was troubled, because here`s a bright woman who didn`t graduate high school. That doesn`t make any sense.

When someone has a borderline personality disorder, what happens is they distort lots of things.


LUDWIG: They distort their emotions and they distort the relationships they have with other people.


LUDWIG: I think in her mind Travis was hers. It didn`t matter what he was saying. When he finally made himself clear, her ego fell apart, she couldn`t handle it and became enraged. And the only way to dismiss that rage or reduce the rage was to kill him to be in a better place.

PINSKY: It`s hard for people to understand that these people, these borderlines literally perceive reality in a distorted way. It goes into memory in a distorted fashion. So, they can report with abject honesty about something.

You ever find yourself shaking your head, yada, yada, yada, if somebody experiences something completely different than what you remember, it`s this kind of thing sometimes. Sometimes it`s flat out lying, too.

Next up, Jodi on Jodi. Guys, stay with me. What she says about her own behavior, her own mouth, the killer`s mouth that is.

And later, we have exclusive new video of Travis Alexander to share with you guys. Here`s just a bit of it. And the young man who filmed that this with Travis and his thoughts.

Be right back.



ARIAS: We had pets -- cats, dog, fish, we had a rat. I love animals.

I initially got the gas cans from Daryl so I can save money on glass. Coupon clipper, that kind of person.

I went to Michael`s, the arts and crafts store, and bought supplies and experimented with that and started painting.

In the Phoenix airport, the there`s a stand and I always get one before I go on my flight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you graduate from high school?

ARIAS: No, I didn`t.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you drop out?

ARIAS: Yes, I did.

My ex-boyfriend in Costa Rica, I moved, well, I didn`t move there, but I went there on an exchange program and lived there for weeks in this summer. I never had glasses my entire life and in 2010, I put some on just for fun and it was like I didn`t know you could see the world that way and everything was sharp and that`s when I realized I needed glasses.


PINSKY: Presto. Jodi needed glasses. Still the behavior bureau, and that`s Jodi on Jodi about Jodi, talking about Jodi all the time.

My co-host this week, Teresa Strasser. Teresa, you`ve been watching this trial. Did you watch it the whole time she was on the stand those, whatever, it was, 18 or 20 days?

STRASSER: Oh, yes, I`m here in Phoenix. It`s more omnipresent that the (INAUDIBLE).

PINSKY: Is that true that there`s a lot -- is the town caught up with it as the country and particularly this HLN audience?

STRASSER: Oh, yes. It`s very compelling. I mean, the graphic sexual details, things you have to look up in urban dictionary. And then, I think there are things some of us can relate to. If borderline personality or stalking, there are spectrums. Maybe some of us have driven by a guy`s house, maybe some of us have written a guy one too many emails.

PINSKY: Teresa, is there something you talk about?

STRASSER: I think so.

PINSKY: OK, just saying.

OK. But you mentioned the sexuality that comes up in this case, and sex, addiction, deviancy, it`s all come up on cross-examination, today even, but just who had the issues in this relationship.

Now, I want you to watch this piece of tape, my panel, behavior bureau is going to comment on it and I am warning the viewers this is not appropriate for all viewers. Let`s look first.


ARIAS: I think about having sex with you everyday? Think how I feel (EXPLETIVE DELETED) inside of me.



PINSKY: All right. Emily, I want to go to you. You are a sex and relationship expert.


PINSKY: And I`ve got Abe across from me on the panel. Abe knew Jodi, dated Jodi. I wonder if there`s something you might ask Abe that might help us elucidate this story.

Please go right ahead.

MOORE: Absolutely, yes.

Abe, question for you. I mean, you knew Jodi. And I`m curious, well, intimately, is there anything at all in her behavior that made you think that she was somewhat of a sexual deviant, a sex addict? Was there anything that made in your mind, hmm, this is kind of interesting behavior, because I think it takes two to tango. They`re trying to say that Travis is a sex addict, she is. What do you think, Abe?

ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI ARIAS: Well, I mean, we were only together physically once. We went out once. I knew her for a year and a half.

MORSE: Right.

ABDELHADI: And that`s where the meat of all this comes in. But she didn`t say anything -- she never intimated anything that she was that open, and she had no problems with him at all to me. She never said that, you know, he abused her, that he was a sexual deviant, none of this stuff.

So, for her to come out with this now to defend herself, it`s a canard. The whole thing is a fraud, and she knows it, and the defense knows it which is why they file a mistrial every 15 minutes. I`m not an expert, but I`m just saying it`s ridiculous.

DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: And Robi, I really haven`t had a chance to talk with you about this particular issue, but you know, the two of them together was a bad combination, I mean, clearly. Both probably trauma survivors. Jodi, the borderline stuff and those borderlines can have a lot of hyper sexuality, can`t they and use sex in special ways.

ROBI LUDWIG, PSY.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, absolutely. I mean, in some cases, they`re very impulsive. People with borderline personality are impulsive because they don`t want to feel the intensity of their emotion. But I think for Jodi Arias, she really thought she was in love with Travis and the best way to get him or to keep him interested was through sex. So, that was -- it was almost like she was exchanging sex for love.

Until it didn`t work anymore. But Jodi really thought that maybe because Travis was so sexually excited by her, that would keep Jodi in the game. And I don`t even know how interested she was in sex. I think she liked the sex because it helped her feel loved and connected to Travis.

PINSKY: And I would say, Emily back to you, I would say kept her in a position of power.

MORSE: Exactly, especially because that`s how she identifies herself. I mean, she might be, you know, diagnose her however you will, she leads with her sexuality. She leads with him and leading (ph) men and getting certain things because of how she looked. And so, it makes total sense that that`s the cards that she would play again and again because that`s her strength or what she thinks perceives as her strength.

ABDELHADI: But she used it to use him. She used it to use him to get him to give her what she thought she needed in life. She was at the point in life where she thought -- her last guy, Brewer, she told me about him. He didn`t want to have any more kids. He just wanted a relationship. They owned a house together. It was going to be nice and fun. He wanted a companion.

He was older than I was. And so, he just wanted a companion to hang out with and that was it. So, when she met Travis, she thought, here`s the golden goose. He`s going to be successful. They`re going to (ph) have babies, blah, blah, blah, blah. She changed religions for him. She did all this stuff for him. And when it didn`t pan out, she killed him. That`s a simply as you can make it.

PINSKY: And Cheryl, I`m going to complicate it a little bit from Abe and say the borderlines we think clinically which we all believe she has and the woman on the stand today using that terminology, people with borderline disorder, true borderline disorder always have severe interpersonal dysfunction, Cheryl, severe relationship chaos.

CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Chaos, crisis after crisis, very, very typical of this situation. But I think that Abe is on to something, that the borderline part of her is the part that wanted to see if she could use sex yet again to get him to change his mind and take her to Cancun. But the sociopath, psychopathic planner, had the backup plan if he didn`t do it, she was going to kill him.

PINSKY: And I would say there`s that weird split that you kind of see in the parents, too. The mom, to me, looked like the mom of a borderline, oh my God, how could this be? How could she behave like that? How can somebody experience it? It`s confusing, it`s painful, it`s chaotic. Dad had that kind of cold-blooded feelings of somebody around a psychopath like, oh no, this guy gave me a weird feeling. Teresa, you see those tapes of the parents?

TERESA STRASSER, TV PERSONALITY: Yes. And I got the same weird feeling. A question I have for you, Drew, is for the clinicians on the panel. According to court records, these two exchanged 82,000 e-mails in a short amount of time and to the point that maybe she was, you know, trading in sex for love, is that kind of intense --

PINSKY: But Teresa, that`s the word. People with this kind of pathology confuse intensity for love. They confuse normal sexuality for intense sex. They confuse love for intensity. Emily, you deal with sex relationship. Take us home with that.

MORSE: Yes. I mean, I think that everything she orients is toward sexuality. So, it would make sense that everything they do, it would be about, you know, her sex life and how she could be appealing to him. And that`s really what she thought. That`s what her strong suit was. That`s what she led with, with everything with him and when she was in jail. I mean, that`s the only card she knows how to play and she`s not even playing it that well.

PINSKY: Thank you, behavior bureau.

Next up, we have exclusive new video of Travis Alexander we`re going to share with you.

Plus, he`s the cameraman, the gentleman who shot this, details about Travis` relationship with Jodi.

And later, the jurors, my jurors witness the fireworks in court today. They`re going to tell us whether or not they thought Jodi was ill. They`re going to talk about the relationship between Jodi and her attorneys. A lot to tell us that they witnessed today. Be right back.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Teresa Strasser. And we will be joined by our panel. We have exclusive video of Travis Alexander. You remember him, perhaps, playing a character called Eddy Snell (ph) and he is back. Thanks to my next guest, Tyler Farnsworth. Tyler was actually a very good friend of Travis`. I want you to take a look at this shot by Tyler.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, that`s our frigging business. What do you think? Are you in?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know. I just got married. I have to talk to my wife.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Want to talk to your wife?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Want to talk to your wife?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Hey! What about you? You want to talk to your wife? You good to go? Yes. I thought so.


PINSKY: I actually spoke to Tyler earlier, Teresa, if you remember, and we began by asking him what made him want to make and record that particular exercise? Take a look.


TYLER FARNSWORTH, KNEW TRAVIS ALEXANDER: You know, what we just saw there was a video that we put together to kind of -- well, Travis was repricing his role of Eddy Snell. And so, he had the idea of putting it out on video. You know, for several times, he`d done it in person. And that was really a fun role that he would do to help make sales training interesting instead of it being boring.

He was really engaging. So, we decided to put it together on video and make it something fun and interesting for people to see.

PINSKY: We`re looking at him climbing onto a hummer right now. Is that part of the experience you guys were putting together? So, this was sort of a way of introing him at your sales events, is that right?

FARNSWORTH: Exactly. You know, it was a way, you know, that Eddie Snell character, you know, and Daisy Dukes and the mullet and everything, was a way to introduce certain sales concept in a really funny and different way.

PINSKY: It really was funny.

FARNSWORTH: It captured him pretty well.

PINSKY: There was a chill. And so, you wanted us to really know this part of Travis, your friend, whom you knew for a long time. And you knew Jodi and Travis, is that right?

FARNSWORTH: I did. I knew Travis much more than I knew Jodi. I didn`t know Jodi well. It was much -- a little bit more disassociation, you know, a little bit of association with her.

PINSKY: Did he ever express his concerns about her with you?

FARNSWORTH: You know, he did. He would talk about how, you know, she wouldn`t leave him alone, just, you know, some of the things that we would talk about as we were, you know, eating lunch or doing different things. It was just, you know, sometimes would express frustrations about, you know, about things that she was doing.

PINSKY: Now, I want to show you something also that`s chilling here. This is actually from Jodi`s MySpace page. At the time of Travis`s death, he`s in his Eddie Snell mode there. And this was posted by Jodi, we believe, just after she had killed Travis. Mark, I wonder if you have any questions for our guest.

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Yes, Tyler, I don`t think this case comes down to whether Travis was abusive or not. I think the defense`s tactic of making him somehow look bad. I don`t think it comes down to that. However, based on what you know of him, is there any truth at all about any of the stuff that they`re alleging?

FARNSWORTH: You know, all the interaction I had with him, he was always positive, engaging, energetic. I, to be quite honest, never saw him get mad. You know, so, it`s hard to see that side. You know, obviously, you never know. I`m not with him 24/7. But every interaction I had with him was uplifting, was engaging, was fun. And so, it`s difficult to hear some of these things. And I just -- I can`t see it.

PINSKY: Teresa, you have a question?

STRASSER: Yes. I know you didn`t know Jodi well, but you were around them as a couple. What was the vibe? Did you pick up on anything about them as a couple?

FARNSWORTH: You know, there were times where we would be, you know, hanging out at his house, and she would come over to the house and just kind of -- stay in the other room. It was -- there was always some tension there. So, it was always just a little bit awkward, a little bit different.

PINSKY: Jenny, how about you?

JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: First of all, I`m so sorry about your friend. He`s just -- he`s adorable and he seems so funny and charismatic. It`s a shame.


FARNSWORTH: Yes, absolutely.

HUTT: But, my question is, was there any sort of defining moment where you felt like Travis was done with the relationship or was trying to extricate himself?

FARNSWORTH: Yes. I mean, as far as defining moment, I, you know, wouldn`t have been there for that necessarily, but I remember, you know, sitting down at lunch one day and him talking about it. He was frustrated, and he was wanting to move on and he was wanting to find, you know, a great relationship and some potential marriage material.

And, you know, so I know that was something that was a really strong goal of his and that he really wanted to achieve.

PINSKY: Cheryl, now, listen, you and I have talked about Jodi having borderline features for quite some time. We`re now starting to hear those terms in the courtroom.

ARUTT: Finally.

PINSKY: What is it -- yes, finally. Exactly. What is it about borderline that makes them unable to tolerate that leaving process, that rupture in a relationship and why is that associated with potentially uncontrolled rage?

ARUTT: Ooh, that`s a big question. I`ll try to do that fast. Borderline personality is very black and white thinking and very, very high impulses with very low control. And, if somebody is bad -- somebody feels bad if somebody leaves them, it means that they`re worthless. They can`t hold on to a sense of anything good. And, they feel rage and hatred towards somebody who doesn`t do what they want them to do.

PINSKY: I could say that exposing her to those feelings of feeling worthless directs the rage and hatred towards him.

ARUTT: Right. She can`t soothe herself on her own so she acts out aggressively.

PINSKY: I see my panel nodding. Tyler, does that fit with who she was?

FARNSWORTH: You know, from the interaction I had, I mean, it seems like it did. I mean, she was always just quite reclusive around us or, you know, if we`d be watching movies or doing different things, there just wasn`t a lot of interaction.

PINSKY: Interesting.


PINSKY: Thank you, Tyler, for bringing us that video and also for being such an excellent guest. Teresa, he was really quite an interesting young man and gave us some real insight into Travis. Yes?

STRASSER: I was so glad that we got a chance to see that video and to talk to him because we get caught up in the minutia of this trial and we forget that this was a human being with a lot of charisma and charm and he was goofy and he was fun. He somebody`s brother and he was a lot of people`s friend.

PINSKY: Right. All right. Take a break now. Next up, I will answer questions from a panel.

And later, my jury tells me what did, in fact, go on inside the courtroom today. Did Jodi really look sick? They have some new and interesting information. And we will be right back.

VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up at the top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," our bold accusation. Jodi tortured travis. A crucial issue when it comes to the death penalty. Was it cruel? Was it heinous? We`ve got 12 jurors here in studio who will render a verdict and you, our online jury at home, also rendering a verdict by the end of the program. Guilty or not guilty, Jodi tortured Travis.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don`t consider yourself an expert in domestic violence, do you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a lot of experience in domestic violence and work with people domestic violence. It determines -- it depends on how you define expert.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you define yourself as an expert of domestic violence?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would not call myself an expert in domestic violence, specifically.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So, you are not an expert in domestic violence according to you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a lot of experience with it, but I wouldn`t put that term on because I think it`s an important term.


PINSKY: Back with Drew`s views and back with my co-host, TV personality, Teresa Strasser. My guests and the panel get to ask whatever they want. Mark, I`m going out to you first, I see you asked Siri a question. Are you going to ask me the same one? During the break, Mark is talking to his iPhone.


EIGLARSH: No. I was dictating something. All right. Question to you, Drew, during the trial, the defense witness got this expert to admit that Jodi does meet the criteria for posttraumatic stress disorder but for her lying about that one incident of assault. So, then I started thinking, was it that simple? If Jodi had just manufactured a story about assault, that this witness didn`t know was a lie, which she admit the criteria, can you fool the experts that easily?

PINSKY: You can`t fool the experts. There are ways of testing and the instruments that will help pull that out, but people can lie and fake us for a while. Lauren, what do you got?

LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: OK. What I want to know is, I`ve been reading a little bit on these personality disorders. And I`m overwhelmed because there are so many kinds, so many levels. And I want to know, how do you go from having some type of personality disorder to becoming a Jodi Arias? Is it environment? Is it lack of medication?

PINSKY: A very interesting question. And Cheryl, I have you to sort of back me up on this and then I go to quickly to break, that genetics and environment figure into this, and these are life-long patterns. They`re more than traits that really state (ph). You can have borderline traits. You can be a full on diagnose well-condition. And Cheryl, you and I think she has the disorder plus something a little more.


PINSKY: Yes. Agree.

ARUTT: Dr. Drew, I wanted to ask you that, what do you make of Jennifer Wilmot`s very different attitude today when she was questioning the witness? Was she just desperate and just grasping at cross?

PINSKY: I got to go to break, unfortunately. I say, yes. Desperate and frustration. Back up with my jury after this.


PINSKY: It is time for Dr. Drew`s jurors. Back with Teresa Strasser. Teresa, interesting show tonight, right?

STRASSER: Let me ask Siri. Sorry, Mark.

PINSKY: Thank you for doing that. People don`t get to see Mark during the breaks the way we do. It`s quite entertaining.

Katie Wick and Stacey Fairrington are here with us. All right. You guys, you saw what really went down in court today. Was she sick? How was she relating to her attorneys? Give us the facts.

KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": She`s completely not sick, Dr. Drew. Once again, she`s prolonging this. I looked over at Travis` family and my heart just broke for them. It`s another day. No -- you know what, Dr. Drew, she probably had a headache because she had her nose in a coloring book nonstop for the past two days.

It`s ridiculous. We`re tired of it. The judge looked very tired of it. She`s not sick. Today was actually the first day I saw Jodi interact a little bit with Nurmi (ph), which I haven`t seen in a really, really long time. So, we`ll see if this headache is there tomorrow. It`s just ridiculous.

PINSKY: Stacey?

STACEY FAIRRINGTON, DR. DREW "JUROR": Yes, Dr. Drew. And yes. Well, the only thing in the courtroom today that was any shade of green was her shirt. She wasn`t sick. She acted fine the whole time. And it was even funny to kind of see when we could tell there was something going on in the courtroom because people were kind of walking in and out of doors.

And at one point, the bailiff even went over to Juan Martinez and you could just see him shake his head and laugh. And quite frankly, a few jurors and even some people in spectators, because now it`s almost like a -- oh my gosh, I can`t believe it. It`s like, oh, here it is again. You know, we`re dealing with another one of her headaches again.

PINSKY: Guys, stay with us. Hang on. I`ll get back to --


PINSKY: Hold it, Katie. I got to take a break. Be right back after this.



PINSKY: Teresa, you got a question for the jury?

STRASSER: Yes. Going Juan Martinez style to say the yes or no. Did the jury look fatigued today to you?

WICK: Yes.

PINSKY: Excellent.


PINSKY: Oh yes, no. That helps us out a lot. Guys, we got to go. Reminder, "HLN After Dark" begins right now.

POLITAN: Tonight`s bold accusation, Jodi tortured Travis. Tonight, 12 jurors here in studio and you, our online jury at home, will decide if s is guilty or not guilty of torturing Travis Alexander.

Now, the defense says Jodi killed in self-defense. She only stabbed and shot him after he attacked her. But tonight, I`ll prove to you, our online jury at home and our in-studio jury, that Jodi tortured Travis.