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PIERS MORGAN LIVE
Search for Clues in Boston Bombing; Boston Bombing Hero
Aired April 17, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: This is PIERS MORGAN LIVE. We want to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world to CNN's team coverage of the Boston marathon bombing. Tonight, significant progress but no arrests yet. We have the latest on the hunt for the killer or killers, plus a hero who jumped into action to save victims, then disappeared. He's here tonight exclusively.
Now the latest on the investigation. Here's what we know. Authorities say they want to talk to two men with backpacks or bags, seen in the photo near the finishing line. Sources tell CNN authorities also want to talk to a man seen on video wearing a white baseball cap. One of the sources said the man had the cap on backwards and was wearing a light-colored hoodie and a black jacket.
Meanwhile, in Washington, the Senate votes down a bill on expanding background checks of gun buyers and a furious President Obama calls it shameful.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: While this compromise didn't contain everything I wanted or everything that these families wanted, it did represent progress. It represented moderation and common sense. That's why 90 percent of the American people supported it. But instead of supporting this compromise, the gun lobby and its allies willfully lied about the bill.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: We'll have more on that later in the show. Plus an arrest in the ricin case. But we begin with CNN's Jake Tapper live for us in Boston where the president will travel for an interfaith service tomorrow in memory of the bombing victims.
Jake, a pretty chaotic day in many ways. Lots of claim, counterclaim, leak, counter leak. Where are we right now? It's 9:00 p.m. Eastern, there's been no arrest as we speak. But what has there been today that we know for sure in terms of development?
JAKE TAPPER, ANCHOR, "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER": Well, we know that there has been some -- there have been some advances made in the investigation. Specifically through videotape obtained from the Lord and Taylor store in Copley Square, not far from where I'm standing right now. And that with that surveillance video investigators do believe they had found someone whose behavior at least warrants further investigation. That's as far as we -- that's as much as we have as of right now. But investigators do feel good, they do feel as if progress is being made.
There's some other questions out there about whether or not there are other individuals involved. And certainly the investigators are combing through every photograph, every image, not just the ones from official -- surveillance cameras, but also they're using a great deal of crowd sourcing, going to individuals who were there, going to individuals who were videotaping or using their smartphones to take pictures or movies of the Boston marathon, and through all of that data, combing through all of it, they are hoping to have even more advances tomorrow.
MORGAN: Let's talk about some photographs which have emerged involving the bag. We had two pictures yesterday. Before and after the blast, showing this brown-colored bag. And there's been a third picture that has emerged today, which they think was taken an hour and a half before the explosion which seems to show a similar bag, but slightly behind the railing here.
Is this significant, Jake? Do we know what any of this means?
TAPPER: Well, potentially it is significant. It's very interesting. A third image appeared, CNN was able to obtain this photograph, which shows this bag that a lot of people have been wondering about and speculating about whether or not it contained an incendiary device or is related at all to this investigation. Having been placed in a different location than it's appeared in other locations, this time behind the barricade instead of in front of the barricade in the general location of where one of the explosions went off.
And I know, Piers, you and your team, your national security team, will be talking about this at greater length later on in the show.
MORGAN: We will. Jake, for now, thank you very much indeed.
I want to bring in now Deborah Feyerick, she's been on top of the photograph situation here.
Deborah, tell me where we are with this. Because there have been dozens, tens of hundreds, rocking around the of various pictures, the usual stuff. But there does seem to be some credence to a certain batch of pictures the authorities are now investigating.
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. What we can tell you is that those pictures, there are a handful of pictures that have really reached the highest levels. Those are the pictures that are being circulated, those are the pictures that are being put out and agents are being asked, do you know these people. Do any of these people look familiar.
And there are a couple people that are of particular interest. But again, they don't know who these people are, and they don't know where these people are. But they're trying to isolate the individuals. One I think you mentioned in a white baseball hat. Because there are -- there is something about them. The way they were carrying themselves. The things that they were carrying. You know, there's one picture of a man, and he's kind of got his hand up like this, and I was told by an international terror expert, that's trade craft.
You know, people who don't want to appear that they're talking will sometimes sort of cover their -- cover their mouth. And so all of these are sort of tell that law enforcement is looking at. And as I said, there are probably a handful of pictures that have definitely reached the highest levels that are of the most interest, and that means that they want to find these individuals -- Piers.
MORGAN: You also spoke to two terrorism experts about what kind of chatter there may be on Jihadi websites. And interestingly, there isn't much. Is that right?
FEYERICK: Yes. That's what's so surprising about all of this. And this is what has some terrorism experts a little bit confused as to what the motive is of this. You know, usually when there is an event that's connected to a transnational, somebody from overseas, they will look for certain events. Well, the events that were associated with this particular day had nothing to do with any sort of transnational incident.
You know, on 9/11, everybody sort of gets worried that there is going to be another attack. Sort of an anniversary attack. But not the case. The forums have been especially quiet. There is not the usual chatter that people are not claiming credit for this, which you usually get. It may not be the actual bomber, but it may be somebody from the group like al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, for example.
But now quiet, quiet, quiet. They're not hearing anything, and someone I spoke to in London told me, he said, you know, it's strange, it doesn't feel like the normal sort of terror attacks. And he's dealt with a lot of the Islamists, a lot of the Jihadis. And he says this one is very, very different because it has been so quiet.
Also, Piers, the fact that these devices were actually successful. You look at the Times Square bomber. That failed. You look at other bombs. Those didn't go off. These did. So while the device themselves were rather crude, the way they were able to go off made them successful, and, again, think of all the bombings, Piers, and these particular bombings. The first ones since the 9/11 attacks to actually detonate.
So that's another thing that's on the radar. Something that experts and intelligence officials are all thinking about. And there are a million different pieces that they've got to sort of strain and process and try to get through to reach the kind of conclusion that they're looking for.
MORGAN: There seems to be a slightly jumpy nature, though, to the information flow here, and CNN got caught up in this earlier in the day with sourced information that turned out not to be right about an arrest. There was supposed to be an FBI press conference this evening. It got delayed a couple of times, then it got cancelled outright. Should we be reading anything into this? Has there -- is there a bit of chaos behind the scenes?
FEYERICK: That's probably what you should be reading into it. That, in fact, there is chaos that's going on. Look, you've got many agencies that are responding to this. You've got the Boston Police Department, they've got their own investigators. Then you bring in the FBI, you bring in all these federal law enforcement. And everybody has got to be coordinated to be on the same page. And so, you know, I'm speaking of people who are saying, yes, they have the identity of somebody. And then, you know, I speak to them 10 minutes later, there is no identity.
I heard that there was an arrest. And I sort of waited, made a round of calls. By the time I finished the calls, there was no arrest, there was nobody in custody. And you're parsing everything that is said. Oh, there is nobody who has been arrested, does that mean they're detaining somebody? Does that mean they're questioning them? What does it mean?
So, yes. I think you're right. I think -- I think chaos is definitely what's going on. But the FBI press conference -- I did speak to somebody, and they said the only reason they didn't do the FBI press conference is because they couldn't get the players available to speak to members of the media. They're trying to communicate information, but sometimes it doesn't go as fluidly as it might.
MORGAN: Right. Actually -- Deb, I've got to stop you because I think we've got one of the key players with me now. So Deborah Feyerick, thank you very much for now.
Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick. He's dealing with a tragedy that's nothing short of a nightmare. A deadly terrorist attack in his state. And he joins me now.
Governor, how are you?
GOV. DEVAL PATRICK (D), MASSACHUSETTS: I'm well, Piers, how are you?
MORGAN: It's -- you're such a cheery individual by nature. But even you must have been a bit rocked by the events that happened here with your marathon.
PATRICK: Well, it's been a -- it's been a shocking and for many people a shattering time. But, you know, as a community of greater Boston and commonwealth wide community and frankly even as a national community, we have really pulled together. And there are millions of acts of kindness and grace alongside the horror, and that's a part of how we will heal.
MORGAN: The FBI were expected to have a press conference this evening. They cancelled it in the end after some delay. Is there anything we should be reading into this? Do you know why they cancelled it?
PATRICK: No. No. It's a -- it's a fluid investigation. It's a very comprehensive and methodical investigation, which I think is important for all of us. And, you know, I have said to people, it isn't so until the FBI says it's so. They've led a broad and well- coordinated investigation with all of these different federal, state and local agencies. So, you know, I think I can understand why people are hungry for information, but also as a distant former prosecutor, I can understand why it's important not to make information available prematurely, because it can affect the investigation itself.
MORGAN: In terms of the development involving this video, two lots of video, one from the department store overlooking the finishing line, the other from a local television station. Clearly, this has revealed some kind of photographic evidence, which the authorities, the FBI, and the police are getting pretty excited by.
Do you know much about this? Do you know what they have seen or how clear the images are?
PATRICK: Well, I've been briefed, and I understand some of that and other -- and other evidence that is being pursued -- you know, yesterday the FBI asked the general public to submit their own photographs and videotape. Everybody has got a PDA these days. And they were inundated with responses in a very, very helpful way. But there is a lot to process. So it's going to take some time. And it very much is about piecing together individual bits of information, and data and stuff that is found, debris and so forth that's found at the scene.
And building from there rather than starting from a theory and building back toward the facts. And that will, as I say, take some time.
MORGAN: Governor, we've got a bit of footage I want to play you, which is of CNN's Brooke Baldwin who spoke with a firefighter in Boston, who's at the scene of the bombing with Martin Richard, the young 8-year-old boy who sadly died and his sister who's been very seriously injured. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLIE BUCHANAN JR., ENGINE CO. 24 LADDER CO. 23: I saw a little girl that another guy grabbed. Her leg was severed on the right -- her right leg. And behind her was a little person that had to be this little boy that they talked about. And --
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: He didn't --
BUCHANAN: We couldn't do anything for him. His name was Martin. And we put a sheet over him, just out of respect for him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: It's just desperately sad, isn't it, Governor, that this little boy, he went with his whole family, his mom, his dad, his sister, his brother, and he didn't go home. You know, he's been -- been killed.
PATRICK: Piers, it's horrible. I know that family. His parents have been active in my campaigns. I talked to his dad yesterday and visited with both his mom and dad today. And the older brother, Henry, who really helped to save his sister's life. And you know that they are -- their lives have been turned upside down. They are very, very important parts of our community, and the community is grieving with them. But again, even in that account, was a gesture of kindness and heroism among many, many, many that will be a big part of how we heal.
MORGAN: Well, you're doing a terrific job, Governor, raising morale and keeping spirits high in Boston.
PATRICK: Thank you.
MORGAN: There's been some amazing stories of courage and heroism amid all the despair.
MORGAN: And just keep doing what you're doing. And let's hope we get to the bottom of who did this quickly.
PATRICK: Thank you.
MORGAN: Thank you for joining me.
PATRICK: In time we will. Thank you, Piers.
MORGAN: Deval Patrick there.
Want to turn now to one of the unsung heroes of the Boston bombing. Unsung until now. Tyler Dodd had just left the finish line when twin explosions ripped through the crowd. He jumped into the action helping everybody he could, including a young woman named Victoria.
From her hospital bed she put out an appeal asking to get in touch so she could thank him. It took a while to find him. And Tyler Dodd joins me exclusively now.
Tyler, you're a real hero. I want to take you back to before the explosions went off. Why did you go to the marathon and how had your day been until that point?
TYLER DODD, BOSTON BOMBING RESCUER: It's good to see you tonight, Piers. Actually, I was just at a meeting, kind of sizing -- I've been in Boston for about a year. I had the opportunity to go to the marathon. Went to the finish line. I had some circumstances come up. I decided to walk to Back Bay, and I was about halfway to the station when I heard the first explosion go off. I kind of knew it was -- it was a bad thing right from the get-go. When I heard the second one, I knew. Something bad had happened.
MORGAN: Now, most people in that situation would run for their lives. But instead you ran into what is no more than a battle zone. What made you do that?
DODD: I honestly can't tell you where I drew the power from to do that. I live by a set of principles that I kind of wake up in the morning and kind of pray to how I can help and have God use me as an instrument. And I heard it, and I prayed for that morning, and I knew what I had to do.
MORGAN: What did you see around you as you went into try and help?
DODD: I approached an officer first and told her I had had some medical training in the past with mass casualty stuff. I was able to tell by the look on her face that something very bad had happened. And she told me to go 800 Boylston, I believe is what she said. And she pointed me in the direction. As I was running that direction, I saw people running away. And as I got closer, I started noticing more people were injured. And I had to prepare myself for what I knew I was about to see at that time.
MORGAN: This young student called Victoria, she was wounded by shrapnel. She remains in hospital. And she made this appeal to find out who you were and where you were. Have you made any contact with her?
DODD: I haven't been able to make any contact with her, Piers. I knew the next morning I woke up, I went to a couple hospitals looking for her. But without her last name, I was unable to find her. I spent the whole day looking for her. Out of all of the people I was able to console and help, she stuck out in my mind more than anyone else for some reason. We had some kind of unspoken bond that I can't really vocalize on. Not really any words to describe the bond I felt with this girl.
MORGAN: What is it that you were able to say to her by way of comfort in that moment of acute agony for her?
DODD: I got her to look at me, first off. She looked me right in my eyes. And I asked her what her name was. And to be honest with you, she kind of looked at me funny, wondering why I was asking her name in this situation. She told me, my name is Victoria. I told her, my name is Tyler. And kind of just had a conversation with her. I don't remember exactly what was said.
I remember trying to be aware of my body language and not to look at her injuries as to make the situation worse for her. I tried to keep as calm as I could and to keep her as calm. And I drew my strength from her strength.
MORGAN: You said that you had had experience with mass casualties. Where did you have that?
DODD: I was actually employed by a couple oil companies working in the Gulf of Mexico on offshore drilling rigs. And at that time that was a requirement to be on the rigs, was to have mass casualty and first aid training. MORGAN: And that clearly came very sharply into focus for you. Did you feel that it was usually helpful of that you had been through that?
DODD: Absolutely. It was invaluable that I had been through that. I still have a hard time knowing where I drew the knowledge, what part from inside me that it came from. But I guess it paid off, because I knew what to do. And I just tried to help the best way I knew how to.
MORGAN: You brought the shirt with you that you were wearing on the day of the marathon. It's -- I know it's covered in blood.
MORGAN: If you could raise it up. There's a reason why you brought this. Because you said that you never intend washing this. Tell me why.
DODD: Just -- actually, you know -- what I drew from it, whoever is responsible for -- responsible for this, intended to instill terror and fear on Boston and the world. And what I took away from it is that I don't see it as doing such. I saw humanity at its finest. I saw people of all different cultural backgrounds and nationalities helping each other. And a terrible, terrible time. And the human spirit truly rising above what had happened.
And it was an amazing thing to be a part of. I'm truly blessed to have been able to work alongside such heroes.
MORGAN: I believe you're currently unemployed, is that right, Tyler?
DODD: Yes. I am, actually.
MORGAN: I find that quite extraordinary given the resourcefulness. I'm sure it's not going to last for long after what you did.
Finally, Victoria goes into surgery tomorrow, we understand. I'm sure that we can arrange it for you to meet up with her. Would you like to do that?
DODD: Absolutely. I would love to meet her, Piers. I just want to let Victoria know that she is in my prayers throughout the day, almost constantly, her family. I'm so glad that she is surrounded by family and friends now. I've been getting constant reports about her. I can't stop thinking about how she is doing and the rest of the families. And my heart goes out to the ones who had loved ones injured or lost loved ones.
MORGAN: Well, you were one of many heroes of the day. Tyler Dodd, it's been a real honor to talk to you. Thank you for what you did. Thank you for your service. And like I say, I'm sure you're not going to be out of a job for much longer after this, because I would hire you in a heartbeat. So thank you very much. And we'll be right back.
MORGAN: Developments tonight in the Boston bombing. (INAUDIBLE) new photographs from the attack. Could we be on the verge of a genuine breakthrough? I want to bring in CNN contributor and former CIA operative Bob Baer. Chad Sweet, the former chief of staff of Homeland Security and former FBI assistant director Bill Gavin, who led the investigation of the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center.
Welcome to you all. Bob Baer, again we're in the world of speculation here. But we do know a lot more than we did when we spoke yesterday. In terms of speculation, where is your head taking you with this investigation?
BOB BAER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Piers, I keep on going back and forth. You know, I think it could be a domestic group or a psychotic. But I've been talking to people in Afghanistan and analysts around Washington, and they're looking at al Qaeda. And the way they're explaining it is that Zawahiri made a tape a couple days ago in which could have been a coded message for operatives in this country to strike.
Again, this is speculation analysis. In particular, he's been pushing for taking retaliation for the drone strikes in Pakistan and Yemen. He's been going to his people and saying we've got to hit back at these people. When I give the signal, let's do it. Now, they're putting two and two together. Whether it equals four or not, I don't know.
But they're just looking at the mass casualties, Patriots Day. A national holiday. With a lot of cameras on it. And it's an act of pure revenge. And, again, this is analysis. But I find it very interesting.
MORGAN: Chad Sweet, would you go along with that? Is it all pointing now to the hallmarks of an al Qaeda strike?
CHAD SWEET, FORMER HOMELAND SECURITY CHIEF OF STAFF: It does. And I would agree with bob. If you look at -- if this were something like an anti-tax motive, they would probably be targeting the IRS buildings. If it were some sort of anti-federalism motivation, they would attack some other federal institution.
But to Bob's point, these are soft targets. It's exactly what Zawahiri was calling for. We recovered from the materials we recovered from the site when bin Laden was killed that there was a debate going on between the leadership of al Qaeda and its lieutenants where bin Laden wanted them to continue to focus on these very dramatic events like 9/11. And the lieutenants, the so-called generation 2.0, wanted to say, look, at the end of the day that's great you did that, older generation. But we have to deal with the realities we're up against. And these low-level IED attacks at least allow us to get points on the board. So Anwar al Awlaki was supporting this type of effort. And to Bob's point, the signature here does at least suggest that there is a possibility of some type of violent Islamic extremist connection.
MORGAN: Bill Gavin, you're a former FBI assistant director. The FBI running this investigation under huge pressure. We're in the modern media age where even after two hours, people are screaming for a result. What do you make of the way the FBI is conducting this so far?
BILL GAVIN, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: Piers, I think it's a very difficult investigation to conduct. The bottom line is, with this whole investigation, is that it's like taking a Monet or a Monet painting and cutting it in 25,000 pieces, scattering it all over the neighborhood, then telling people to go recover all the pieces, put the painting back together again. But you never tell them what the painting was.
It is a difficult set of circumstances. But they will do it. They will make sure they put this whole -- all of these pieces of evidence that are scattered over a six- or seven-block area. They will make sure that they put this back together again and get the results. And I -- believe they will put somebody in jail over this.
MORGAN: We have seen the development today of the video which may have identified potential suspects. Again to you Bill Gavin, what would the FBI be looking to do with that? Does it help them to publicize those pictures? There is a word they may be preparing to do that tomorrow. Is it better to keep it to themselves? How would you be playing that if you were the FBI?
GAVIN: I think it would depend upon how much other information they had to go along with those pictures. You know, when -- the pictures -- the number of pictures, they've got thousands of pictures and a lot of them are dated, time-dated pictures. So, what they do, they go right to the heart of the matter when the bomb first went off. They put a collage of these pictures together to see if they can see the same person in each of the pictures. Then they may move back 25 yards, 40 yards, 100 yards to see if those same people are there. Now, if the same people are there in the shots before the finish line, they're carrying a backpack, and after the finish line not carrying a backpack, that's a tremendous piece of help.
And what they do with all these -- painstakingly try to identify these people to see whether or not they're involved. People of interest. I think that's what's going on right now. When they talk about the people they've they're looking at out of the photos from Lord & Taylor's building.
MORGAN: Final point for you, Bill, on that. How much more difficult is it for the FBI that the internet is now so rampant with rumor, speculation and indeed, many images of the exact type you're talking about, being broadcast not just obviously to the public, but also to any terrorists who may have been involved in this. They can also see what is being put up. And it may act as a warning to them. GAVIN: Sometimes it's difficult, but it's a downside of an investigation. But Piers, it's also the strength of a democracy and the transparency of what's going on. How to try to complete this mosaic and put everything back together again to identify the individual or individuals that are responsible for this horrific act of terrorism.
MORGAN: Let's please all stay where you are. We'll go back to this after the break. It's a fascinating investigation. The whole of America wants to know who has done this and why. At the moment we don't the answer to either question. We're going to try to get to more of the theories after the break and explore what are the most likely.
MORGAN: Investigators are combing through thousands of photographs of the bomb scene tonight. But what do they reveal? With me now is Michael Mukasey. He's the former attorney general under President George W. Bush. And CNN terrorist contributor Paul Cruickshank. And back with me, Bob Baer, Chad Sweet and Bill Gavin. Welcome to you both.
Let's start with you, Michael Mukasey, if I can. What is your overview here? You've been in a top position in a government that had to deal with stuff like this.
MICHAEL MUKASEY, FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, the overview is that we're down to homemade devices, fabricated devices. This is not 9/11, not anything near 9/11. And yet we could have had the same thing in Times Square. It didn't go off. We were lucky. We ducked that one. But this one did. And so that's the level that we're dealing with. And that seems to be the new approach.
MORGAN: Is it -- we do not know who has done this. And I keep stressing that. This is speculative theorizing, but with experts. Is your head moving towards al Qaeda, as many others seem to be?
MUKASEY: As the -- two of the three people you spoke to just a minute ago were, it is tending toward that. Particularly if it turns out that -- we've gotten different reports on one suspect or two. If it's one suspect, then, you know, this could be the Unabomber or somebody like Eric Rudolph or somebody like that. But when you start to get to two people, then you're getting closer to a sort of coordinated attack with obviously more than one person. And the likelihood that somebody just went off on a tear being diminished.
MORGAN: Paul Cruickshank, when we spoke the other night, you mentioned this "Inspire" magazine, which is a periodical magazine basically produced by al Qaeda supporters. And in it is this extraordinarily explicit detailed account of how you use a pressure cooker as a bomb. And this is the kind of pressure cooker here which was used, we believe, at the Boston Marathon. It's pretty small. It's pretty -- it's quite firm and heavy, actually, but I would imagine extremely easy to use, particularly if you have this manual from people telling you how to do it. PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM CONTRIBUTOR: Well, that's right. It's a seven-page how-to guide. It was put out by the group in English in the summer of 2010. And it's been linked to multiple terrorism plots by Islamists on both sides of the Atlantic and the UK in 2010, but also here in the united states, two plots in 2011. So the question is, you know, may this be a link to Islamists.
But similar devices have also been used by right wing extremist groups, white supremacist groups in the United States. So I'm not sure whether it really does narrow the playing field of who is responsible.
MORGAN: Chad Sweet, if you were at the Homeland Security Department now, given this stuff is all over the Internet, clearly any crackpot out there can read this kind of thing and try and emulate, try and copycat. It creates a whole new world of amateur terrorist activity. What do you do about that?
SWEET: Well, you defeat a network with a network. We should flip the use of the Internet to our advantage, which is we need to empower citizens and our first responders who are in the front line to be able to do the reverse, which is -- there's a tremendous opportunity to crowd source, which means use this Internet in the same way that is somewhat enabling these terrorists. We can enable our citizens and our first responders to equally be able to identify signatures that this is happening.
And so right now, if you think about the analogy of a star fish or a spider, if a star fish ends up getting cut off an arm, it continues to grow. If a spider does, it dies. In the case of al Qaeda, it's more like the star fish. Bin Laden was killed, al Awlaki was killed, et cetera. But this is continuing to metastasize. So generation 2.0 of leaderless Jihad, they are going to use the Internet. This is a younger generation and it's imperative, Piers, that we use the Internet to actually teach our people and first responders to identify this.
And there are programs like TripWire at DHS and the Office of Bombing Prevention that are being cut by over 50 percent. We're spending less than one percent of the money we spent on defeating IED in Iraq and Afghanistan. This is an opportunity now to do -- to cross-apply it at home.
MORGAN: Right. Michael Mukasey, has there been a failure of intelligence? If it turns out this wasn't al Qaeda hit on a relatively soft target like the Boston Marathon, would heads have to roll? Is this a failure?
MUKASEY: Not necessarily. If -- sure, it turns out that it's an al Qaeda hit that was coordinated by al Qaeda from abroad, then you would think that is something that should have been detected. But it doesn't have the hallmarks of that. It does have the hallmarks of something that is put together on an ad hoc basis and something that is much more improvisational than a long-distance al Qaeda call.
MORGAN: Final question for you, Bob Baer, very quickly if you don't mind. Do you think it's a failure of intelligence? You have been part of the CIA for many years.
BAER: No. We can't stop all of these groups. There's just no way. They're too small. We can get people in the country all you want. It's -- it's not a failure of intelligence.
MORGAN: OK. Bob Baer, Chad Sweet, Bill Gavin, Paul Cruickshank and Michael Mukasey, thank you all very much indeed.
We'll have much more from Boston a bit later in the show. But next, the Senate rejects expanded background checks, a stinging defeat for President Obama. I'll talk to the sister of a Sandy Hook teacher Vicki Soto.
MORGAN: Today on Capitol Hill, a stunning and crushing defeat on gun control. The Senate rejected a bill to expand background checks, voting down seven amendments in all, including a ban on assault weapons, high-capacity magazines. In fact, just about everything. It's a huge victory for the NRA and for gun rights groups, and a bitter defeat for President Obama. Today angry, lashed out at lawmakers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I've heard some say that blocking this step would be a victory. My question is, a victory for who? A victory for what? All that happened today was the preservation of the loophole that lets dangerous criminals buy guns without a background check. That didn't make our kids safer. Victory for not doing something that 90 percent of Americans, 80 percent of Republicans, the vast majority of your constituents wanted to get done? It begs the question, who are we here to represent?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Today's Senate vote comes more than four months after Adam Lanza shot to death 20 children, and six adults in Newtown, including teacher Vicki Soto. Vicki's sister Carlee Soto joins me now. Carlee, thank you for joining me again. You were there today at the Senate to witness what happened. What is your reaction?
CARLEE SOTO, SISTER KILLED IN NEWTOWN MASSACRE: I am disgusted and so disappointed in our Senate.
MORGAN: What is the matter with them, do you think? What would it take? If the deaths of 20 young children and your sister and five other adults at an elementary school, if that isn't enough to bring in something, what is?
SOTO: You know, if they were to lose a loved one to a horrific tragedy like we did, they would feel the same way. And I don't wish that upon anyone. But if they had to bury their loved one, they would feel the same way I do.
MORGAN: I saw Sarah Palin Tweet that it was a great victory for the Second Amendment, for law-abiding citizens. I've seen right wing radio hosts saying today that the Newtown family should go to hell, because they were attacking their Second Amendment rights, and they lost and so on and so on. Are you staggered by the reaction of fellow Americans to this?
SOTO: I'm disgusted with it. How can you -- how can you say that? You know? It's awful to think that. And I love Sarah Palin, and I can't even -- I can't even believe that she would say that. You know, this -- this isn't all about the Second Amendment. Yes, it is, but no one is trying to take away your guns. It's just a background check, a simple background check.
MORGAN: Ninety percent of the American people in polls say they support it. All it does is mean that if somebody wants to sell a gun to somebody at a gun show or do it privately, that they have to basically have it checked to find out if they're criminals or mentally ill, apart from anything else. And yet it got thrown out by politicians who are more concerned with keeping their jobs, perhaps, than principle. What do you say to those senators that voted all this stuff down today?
SOTO: That they should be ashamed. You know, we vote for these people to be -- you know, have a voice for us. They're supposed to be there for us and speak for us. And who were they speaking for today? Ninety percent of the country agree that we need background checks, stronger he background checks. Who are they speaking for today? Because clearly, it was not -- it was not the states that they were representing.
MORGAN: What will you do now, Carlee, because the president said it doesn't end here. You're one of the families from Newtown. What do you intend to do next?
SOTO: Keep fighting. I've been down in D.C. since Sunday. And I plan on keep coming down and being here and fighting for my sister. I won't let what happened to my sister happen to other people, have to feel this pain that I have to feel. Not one more name should be added to the list of names.
MORGAN: Well, we will keep fighting on this show, too, in the memory of your sister, those poor kids at Sandy Hook who were blown to pieces. And we're going to do what we can, too. Carlee Soto, thank you very much indeed.
SOTO: Thank you.
MORGAN: Quite extraordinary, isn't it?
Coming next, saving lives in Boston. My exclusive interview with a doctor who was in ER when the first victims arrived.
MORGAN: Scores of people were injured in the Boston bombing. Several of them remain in critical condition. With me now exclusively is Dr. Andrew Ulrich. He's the vice chair of emergency medicine at Boston Medical Center. Dr. Ulrich, it must be the stuff of nightmares when this kind of thing happens. What was your reaction that suddenly all these people were being brought to you?
DR. ANDREW ULRICH, BOSTON MEDICAL CENTER: Well, you know, we got very little notice in advance. And so we really didn't have time to think about what to do, as much as just get ready and take care of them when they showed up.
MORGAN: In terms of the severity and scale of the injuries, have you in your career ever encountered anything quite like it?
ULRICH: So in what we do, we will see people with injuries like this, but what's unique about this, certainly in the civilian population, is the number of patients with such severe injuries. It's something that we almost never see.
MORGAN: In terms of the speed that you were able to deal with people and the speed of the first responders, do you believe that saved a lot of lives here? It seems extraordinary that so many were hit and yet so few, in the end, ended up losing their lives?
ULRICH: Yeah, I think this was a very unique situation. We were already as a city sort of geared up because the marathon brings so many people to Boston, and we're prepared for a lot of patients with much more minor injuries or issues that come to the hospital. So there was really a lot of resources right in this area. And I think when the event occurred, when the first explosion occurred, the amount of people who could get to the victims so quickly and quickly get them to hospitals was a key factor in the survival rate that we saw.
MORGAN: So many people have lost limbs and had amputations. There's a report breaking tonight that newlyweds, both of them, have lost a limb, which is clearly an appalling tragedy for them. How do you deal with that psychologically with people? I'm told there are still some patients who don't actually know that they've lost their leg, for example.
ULRICH: Yeah, you know, I think the recovery process is going to be an extended process. It's going to take a long time. I think initially, in the very first minutes and hours and days, it's really aimed at the recovery or the resuscitation, and the attempt at saving the patients and doing the best we can for them. I think as the days progress and as the families and the patients sort of come to more realizations as to what happened, there's going to be a lot of work to be done in a lot of places by a lot of people to help everyone recover from this.
I think the patients themselves are going to have an incredible recovery period. I think the families are going to have a very, very tough time. And I think anybody who was involved in all different layers, whether they observed it, whether they helped here on the scene or whether they're in the hospital, I think it's going to leave a real lasting impression. I think everybody's going to have to figure out how to go forward and to deal with it, and deal with it the best way they can. MORGAN: Your youngest patient was I believe five years old. How hard is it for you, as a human being, to see a five-year-old kid brought in who's been blown up by somebody, by a terrorist?
ULRICH: You know, I think it's very difficult for all of us, for all the patients. You know, certainly the younger the patient is, the more emotionally difficult it is for people to deal with. I think what's remarkable and what's still -- I'm still amazed about how everybody was able to sort of get together and do what they needed to do and be able to deal with it in such a really horrific environment. And people were able to do the things they had to do quickly, efficiently. It was really the most collaborative team effort that I have ever seen.
I've been doing this now for over 20 years. I have been involved in a number of other situations or events, certainly not to this extent and certainly not to the degree that we saw, with this one. But this is one that brought everybody to the table. And it was a remarkable effort from the people who dealt with the patients out here in the field to the ones who dealt with them in the hospital.
I think it's very difficult emotionally that when you're dealing with a very, very injured young, young child, it even raises more feelings. But I think the key is be able to do what you do and do it as quickly as you can.
MORGAN: Dr. Ulrich, you've done an extraordinary job, you and your staff. I want to thank you for your service, on behalf of everyone from Boston, from America, from around the world. Because I'm sure that your actions saved a lot of lives. For that we're all incredibly grateful. Thank you.
ULRICH: Thank you very much.
MORGAN: We'll be right back.
MORGAN: We leave you with some breaking news. There is a senior source close to the Boston investigation telling CNN that images showing two men near the finishing line of the marathon are being circulated to federal and state agencies. The sources describes the men as being of high interest and as possible suspects. We'll have more on that at midnight with another live, special edition of the show with more CNN team coverage of the Boston bombings. That's at midnight. Now to Anderson Cooper, who's in Boston.