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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Boston Manhunt Ends; Interview With Rudy Giuliani; Interview with Boston Police Commissioner Ed Davis
Aired April 19, 2013 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone, 10:00 p.m. here in Boston.
We are awaiting some word from President Obama. That will happen any moment, we are told.
Four days since the bombing, a little more than a day and a night since a string of murder and mayhem marked the beginning of the end, and, tonight, we witness the end. It's over.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CROWD: USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Applause tonight on the streets of Boston, pent-up pride and fear, relief, a lot of people very, very happy tonight, people chanting "USA!" for the arrest of the second suspect, the only surviving suspect in the Boston Marathon bombing that claimed three lives the day of the bombing, forever altered the lives of so many more, claimed the life of a police officer just last night.
The second of two brothers, the second of two Boston Marathon bombing suspects is now in custody, 19-year-old Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, a Chechen-American, his older brother, Tamerlan, killed last night in a shoot-out with police in Watertown, about 20 minutes west of where I'm standing.
Now, their flight from justice included the alleged murder of a police officer, as I said, in Cambridge, a carjacking, a car chase, bomb throwing, and a gun battle. Tonight in Watertown, it all ended, the younger suspect cornered in a backyard boat shrink-wrapped for the winter.
A neighbor's tip led police to it, a neighbor who was out walking, saw blood, saw blood on the boat and then saw the person inside in the boat, but first in daylight first a volley of gunfire. That occurred early in the 7:00 hour in Massachusetts, also later as police moved in, surrounded the area, set up a perimeter, flash-bang grenades. Then later, this report on police radio.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have movement in the boat. He just sat up. He is moving, flailing about.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: The state police saying he was under a tarp in the boat. They used a robot to actually pull off the tarp. A robot was used. They were watching him with a thermal imaging camera in a chopper.
People around here now chanting Boston, Boston. A crowd is literally walking down the street kind of moving through this neighborhood, using a bullhorn. A lot of people just have a lot of pent-up fear, anger, defiance, and pride.
And we are seeing that tonight and no doubt we will see that all throughout the night here in a lot of different communities in Boston.
The police saying he was bleeding, most likely they say from the shoot-out last night. Again, blood was seen on the boat by a local, by a neighbor, who then quickly alerted law enforcement. Then, at about 8:40 Eastern, applause on the scene just as we heard moments ago. And moments later, this tweet from the Boston Police Department: "Suspect in custody. Officers sweeping the area. Stand by for further info."
President Obama is going to be speaking about a minute or so from now. The suspect was taken alive, now in the hospital we're told in serious condition, the exact meaning of that unclear.
Let's go now to Jessica Yellin, who is standing by at the White House -- Jessica.
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, this is an opportunity for the president to come out here and cheer on Boston, thank the police there, honor the victims, and remind the nation that America doesn't stop for terrorism.
President Obama watched all of this unfold and the capture go down live on television in the White House residence just as the rest of the nation did. As soon as he learned that the capture was happening, he went across the Colonnade over to the Oval Office and sat there with staff where he got a call from FBI Director Mueller who officially notified him that it was true, the suspect was captured alive.
And then the president decided to come out here. He decided he'd wait until Boston investigators announced it to the nation themselves. Now he will come out and tell us in his own words, no doubt reminding everybody that this investigation doesn't end here. There is much more work to be done. But this is a moment for a lot of recognition for the people there in Boston -- Anderson.
COOPER: It absolutely is. And, as you say, one aspect of this story, this nightmare is over tonight. But, again, other investigations are still under way.
Let's listen to the president.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Tonight, our nation is in debt to the people of Boston and the people of Massachusetts.
After a vicious attack on their city, Bostonians responded with resolve and determination. They did their part as citizens and partners in this investigation. Boston police and state police and local police across the Commonwealth of Massachusetts responded with professionalism and bravery over five long days.
And, tonight, because of their determined efforts, we have closed an important chapter in this tragedy. I have been briefed earlier this evening by FBI Director Mueller.
After the attacks on Monday, I directed the full resources of the federal government to be made available to help state and local authorities in the investigation and to increase security as needed. Over the past week, close coordination among federal, state, and local officials sharing information, moving swiftly to track down leads has been critical to this effort.
They all worked as they should, as a team. And we are extremely grateful for that. We owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to all our outstanding law enforcement professionals. These men and women get up every day, they put on that uniform, they risk their lives to keep us safe, and, as this week showed, they don't always know what to expect.
So our thoughts are with those who were wounded in pursuit of the suspects, and we pray for their full recovery. We also send our prayers to the Collier family, who grieve the loss of their son and brother Sean. He was born to be a police officer, said his chief at MIT. He was just 26 years old.
And as his family has said, he died bravely in the line of duty, doing what he committed his life to doing, serving and protecting others. So we're grateful to him.
Obviously, tonight, there are still many unanswered questions, among them, why did young men who grew up and studied here as part of our communities and our country resort to such violence? How did they plan and carry out these attacks, and did they receive any help?
The families of those killed so senselessly deserve answers. The wounded, some of whom now have to learn how to stand and walk and live again, deserve answers. And so I have instructed the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security and our intelligence community to continue to deploy all the necessary resources to support the investigation, to collect intelligence, and to protect our citizens.
We will determine what happened. We will investigate any associations that these terrorists may have had. And we will continue to do whatever we have to do to keep our people safe. One thing we do know is that whatever hateful agenda drove these men to such heinous acts will not, cannot prevail. Whatever they thought they could ultimately achieve, they have already failed. They failed because the people of Boston refused to be intimidated. They failed because, as Americans, we refuse to be terrorized. They failed because we will not waver from the character and the compassion and the values that define us as a country, nor will we break the bonds that hold us together as Americans.
That American spirit includes staying true to the unity and diversity that makes us strong, like no other nation in the world. In this age of instant reporting, tweets, and blogs, there's a temptation to latch on to any bit of information, and sometimes to jump to conclusions.
But when a tragedy like this happens with public safety at risk and the stakes so high, it's important that we do this right. That's why we have investigations. That's why we relentlessly gather the facts. That's why we have courts. That's why we take care not to rush to judgment, not about the motivations of these individuals, certainly not about entire groups of people.
After all, one of the things that makes America the greatest nation on Earth, but also one of the things that makes Boston such a great city, is that we welcome people from all around the world, people of every faith, every ethnicity, from every corner of the globe.
So, as we continue to learn more about why and how this tragedy happened, let's make sure that we sustain that spirit. Tonight, we think of all the wounded still struggling to recover. Certainly, we think of Krystle Campbell. We think of Lingzi Lu. We think of little Martin Richard. Their lives reflected all the diversity and beauty of our country, and they were sharing a great American experience together.
Finally, let me say that, even as so much attention's been focused on the tragic events in Boston, understandably, we have also seen a tight-knit community in Texas devastated by a terrible explosion. And I want them to know that they are not forgotten.
Our thoughts, our prayers are with the people of West, Texas, where so many good people lost their lives, some lost their homes, many are injured, many are still missing.
I have talked to Governor Perry and Mayor Muska, and I have pledged that the people of West will have the resources that they need to recover and rebuild. And I want everybody in Texas to know that we will follow through with those commitments.
All in all, this has been a tough week. But we have seen the character of our country once more. And, as president, I'm confident that we have the courage and the resilience and the spirit to overcome these challenges and to go forward as one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and just for all.
Thank you very much, everybody.
COOPER: President Obama speaking tonight.
I want to bring in former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, CNN national security analyst Fran Townsend, our senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin also here, security consultant Jeff Beatty, a veteran of the FBI and CIA counterterrorism, also former Massachusetts homeland security adviser Juliette Kayyem, and chief national correspondent John King.
Mayor Giuliani, let me start off with you.
A remarkable end to all of this. Obviously, the investigation continues, the wheels of justice move forward, but your thoughts tonight on what you witnessed over the last 24 hours and all week long.
RUDOLPH GIULIANI (R), FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: Well, I think the ending tonight, or -- which is really the end of the beginning, was about as good as we could expect, right?
The fact that he was captured, captured alive, possibility therefore you can gather more information. I think law enforcement operated, as the president said, at about the highest level you could possibly imagine. They worked together. It seemed to all be seamless.
So, I think that this part of it has in some ways given us some good news after all of the terrible news earlier in the week.
COOPER: Also, the extraordinary role played by citizens, citizens here in the city of Boston, not just who sent in pictures and video images, but a citizen who called police earlier this evening when he himself witnessed blood in the boat and actually saw the suspect in the boat.
John, captured alive, now hospitalized, what are you hearing from your sources?
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The injuries are serious, but not life-threatening, that he will be in the hospital.
You heard the U.S. attorney at her briefing. And this will become part of the process that Mayor Giuliani knows so well from his days as a prosecutor before he got into politics. The public safety exemption has been exercised apparently by the administration. That allows them to do some questioning, are there more bombs out there, did you have partners?
If they believe the public is still at risk, they have broader legal rights, if you will, for questioning the suspect. That will be undertaken. And he's obviously under heavy guard at the hospital as he recovers. Now we move, we move -- you hear -- from the confidence of the police, especially the Boston police commissioner, they sounded confident that these were two brothers essentially acting alone. They will question other people about do they any knowledge or anything like that, but saying that everyone can sleep more safety tonight, everyone can sleep more easily tonight. But obviously now we move from the investigation phase into the prosecution phase. And that could get tricky. And, Anderson, I suspect it's also going to get somewhat political.
COOPER: No doubt about that.
Jeff Toobin, from the legal standpoint...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
COOPER: ... applauding as law enforcement vehicles go by, something you don't see a lot. But certainly there's a huge sentiment, very -- a lot of people very thankful for efforts by law enforcement over this past week.
Jeff, explain this legal situation that he's in where authorities say he does not need to be read his Miranda rights.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Right.
First of all, let's just remember he may be in no physical condition to answer questions with or without Miranda warnings. So his physical condition is the great unknown here, which may render this whole dispute about Miranda moot.
But let's assume that he is in a condition to answer questions. Usually, when someone is arrested, they get Miranda warnings, and then they have a choice of whether to answer questions or not. Here, the government has said when there is an imminent danger to public safety, they can question without Miranda warnings.
That has traditionally or usually been interpreted to mean a future danger to public safety, the so-called ticking time bomb. Tell us what's going to happen in the future, and we're not going to worry about Miranda.
What makes this an unusual invocation of the public safety exception is that the government is saying there is no more danger, there is no further conspirator out there. The government's position may be somewhat internally contradictory.
That's something to keep an eye on as this all unfolds. There are many unanswered questions, but that's sort of the broad outline of what the public safety exception means and what the controversy might be.
COOPER: Now, Mayor Giuliani, as a former federal prosecutor, any thoughts on that?
GIULIANI: Well, two thoughts. First of all, the -- it could be possible that what they're worried about aren't necessarily other co-conspirators, but other conspiracies that he may know about. It may be that there aren't people directly involved in this, but his brother, having spent that much time in Russia, and might have imparted to him a lot of information about other things that are going on. So, that's a possibility.
Secondly, the prosecutor has to decide how important are statements from -- from the defendant anyway? Maybe the prosecutor is pretty comfortable they're going to be able to convict him without having to use his confession and the intelligence is worth more.
You would have to know the internals of what they have before you can assess whether this is a sensible invocation or it isn't.
TOOBIN: Anderson, if I can just emphasize the second point...
COOPER: Actually -- actually -- sorry. Let me just jump in here.
On the phone, we now have the Boston police commissioner, Ed Davis. I just want to go to him, because obviously it's been an extraordinarily busy day for him.
Commissioner Davis, I appreciate you talking with us. What can you tell us about the suspect, about his condition right now?
ED DAVIS, BOSTON POLICE COMMISSIONER: He was severely injured. I'm sorry. He was severely injured in most likely the shoot-out that occurred last night. There may also have been injuries that occurred in an exchange of gunfire with the police this afternoon.
COOPER: So he -- there was an exchange of back and forth of gunfire this afternoon in the boat location, is that correct?
DAVIS: That's correct. That's what I have been told.
The officers, the Boston Police Department, the Massachusetts State Police and FBI agents surrounded the boat. There was an exchange of gunfire. And, eventually, the hostage rescue team came in, used flash bangs, and then was able to remove the suspect from the boat without any further injury.
COOPER: We have got a photo of the suspect being taken away in the ambulance. It's hard to make it out. But it is the photo that we have, so I'm going to show you as we continue to talk, Commissioner.
Can you account at this point for the suspect's whereabouts from the time of the shoot-out in the early morning hours in Watertown in which his brother was killed to how he ended up in the boat at this point? Do you know the steps along the way at this point?
DAVIS: It's hard to tell exactly where he went. We found some blood in a place where he might have spent some time in the middle of the night. At some point, he made his way about a half-mile, maybe little farther, to the location of the boat. It was just outside our perimeter. So it was not searched during the search.
And he holed up there until he was discovered by the (INAUDIBLE)
COOPER: And, at this point, in terms of the involvement of anybody else, either in the planning of the bombing, subsequent to after the bombing, do you have any information or anything you can say of whether you feel these two acted alone?
DAVIS: That's an ongoing investigation that's being led by the FBI. I can't comment on that. But I did say today that I feel that the community of Boston can rest easy tonight.
COOPER: Can rest easy tonight.
Where does this investigation go next, tomorrow? What do you see happening? Are there still areas, buildings you need to search?
DAVIS: There's a lot of work that needs to be done. I wouldn't comment directly on what's going to happen over the next few days. But I will tell you that the FBI is in charge of the terrorism investigation. And we're cooperating fully with Rick DesLauriers, the special agent in charge.
COOPER: Can you confirm to us where the suspect is now?
DAVIS: The suspect was taken by Boston EMS to an area hospital. I don't know exactly what hospital he's been put in.
COOPER: So he's currently still in the hospital, to your knowledge?
DAVIS: Yes, that's my belief.
COOPER: Police Commissioner, I appreciate your type tonight. Obviously been an extraordinary week for you and your officers. And we want thank you for all your efforts and again for taking the time to talk to us tonight.
We continue to discuss things with former Mayor of New York Rudy Giuliani, also senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin, Fran Townsend, John King. Juliette is here, also Jeff Beatty.
Fran Townsend, from your perspective, what stands out? What questions do we need now answered in the coming days?
FRANCES TOWNSEND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it's motivation.
And the president -- the president himself said that in the White House Briefing Room. We want to know in the coming days what motivated these two men who had spent most of their lives in the United States. We know some about the suspects. We know that they had some relationship, if you will, or belief in an extreme form of Islam.
And I think that's why you heard, Anderson, the president say that we shouldn't sort of assume bad motives to an entire group. I know from talking to a number of sources across the federal government, they're concerned about hate crimes. And they don't want to see that happen.
And so this is -- they're trying to keep the American public focused on the actions of these two people. One's dead. One's in custody. We will get to the bottom of what the motivation is, but to stay focused on the fact that the actions of these two do not reflect the actions of an entire group of people.
COOPER: Jeff Toobin, I believe you were wanting to say something earlier before we talked to the police commissioner.
TOOBIN: Well, this issue about Miranda, it's important to limit -- to recognize that this is a fairly limited question.
Mayor Giuliani made this point. And I think it's worth emphasizing. The only thing Miranda does is limit how much an individual statement can be used against that individual. If a state -- if he makes statements without Miranda, that can be used for any other purpose. It can be used to investigate other leads. It can be used against other people, and it may be that there is so much evidence against this guy that they don't need his statements.
So the Miranda issue may be not all that important as a legal matter. And the fact that they get information from him that can be used to make sure there are no other conspiracies out there, that may be very useful information. And they can still prosecute him very successfully without those statements, because it sure seems like there is going to be a lot of evidence against this guy, independent of any statements he might have made.
COOPER: I want to bring in our national security analyst, Peter Bergen, who is joining us. Peter has written extensively on al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden.
Peter, I appreciate you joining us.
What are the questions that you are most interested in learning about these two, and in particular about motivation and their operational capabilities?
PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, first of all, Anderson, I think it's very interesting that they were able to detonate two bombs almost simultaneously. I think that's pretty hard.
It suggests either practice in the United States or training elsewhere or perhaps both. We have had terrorists who have gone overseas who have tried to detonate bombs in the United States, for instance, the Times Square bomber, Faisal Shahzad. He was trained and he wasn't -- he drove his SUV into Times Square to detonate a bomb. It didn't work. So, even with training, sometimes people don't get it right. And I think the idea that these people simply read a recipe on the Internet and built two very successful bombs doesn't -- it's very unlikely. So that's a first question.
The other question is, the motive, the kind of question that President Obama raised in the briefing, which is, you know, how did they become radicalized in the United States? We have seen with the case of Major Nidal Hasan in Fort Hood, Texas, he was self-radicalized with a major Internet complexion to that. Obviously, what these guys were doing on the Internet, who they e-mailed with, what they were reading, what kind of things they were downloading will be very key to this question of motivation.
And, finally, Anderson, you know, what was the older brother doing in Russia for six months last year? We have seen in the past Najibullah Zazi, who was as American citizen naturalized, came to this country, a trip to Pakistan was the point at which he became trained how to use bombs, which he was planning to blow up in Manhattan. So, those I think are the three main questions.
COOPER: And we do know that a foreign government, assuming Russia -- but we don't for -- we haven't confirmed for sure -- a foreign government did request an interview with him through the FBI. The FBI did conduct that interview. No further action was taken.
Jeff Beatty, formerly with the FBI, also formerly a counterterrorism official with the CIA, you and I earlier had discussed the idea of -- of these devices, and you said they must have practiced.
JEFF BEATTY, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Exactly.
As Peter was indicating, you know, it's hard to get it right the first time. And so I think that what we will find when the investigation goes forward is that there were rehearsals, perhaps out of the country, perhaps here. You know, we did some research and found reports of explosions in the greater Boston area a month or so ago, not large explosions, but explosions that could account for perhaps testing the initiating device of these weapons.
And so, just like Timothy McVeigh practiced his bomb in the desert outside Kingman, Arizona, and citizens heard it, but They thought, well, no harm, no foul, it's way out in the desert -- you have mentioned the public many times as being a help in this case. And I think that this is a good opportunity to remind the public that even something as small as that, if it's out of the ordinary, without being paranoid, a good chunk of public safety is the public.
And when you see suspicious things or hear suspicious things, let somebody know.
COOPER: Because what we understand now, it's not just the pressure cooker devices they are alleged to have used. Last night, in the shoot-out in this interaction with the police, there were also smaller explosive devices apparently used, and also explosive devices found on the person of the older brother, with an actual detonation device. The details of that are not clear.
Juliette Kayyem, formerly with Homeland Security in Massachusetts.
JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN ANALYST: Yes, one part is over, which is the response, finding both of them actually.
And everyone thinks, OK, that part's over, now it's in the legal phase, is what Jeff was describing about. But there's going to be a continuing part with the first-responders. And that's called the after-action reports, because there will be lessons to be learned. No one's pretending that everything went perfectly.
There was a terrorist attack in Boston, right? So what you're going to see almost simultaneously is a look back at what did the FBI know, what did the local and state officials know, was information not shared, and then also on the response side, was the response appropriate, was -- how did the shelter in place work that the governor demanded, and then eventually the last 24 hours.
So that part's not over, and that's importance so that next time we get better and better. No one pretends that it's always perfect. The goal is to get better and better each time.
COOPER: Our Poppy Harlow's in the crowds gathering tonight outside Boston's Northeastern University. She joins us now by phone.
Poppy, crowds here have been chanting, applauding all night long. I imagine it's the same where you are.
POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They have.
You know, we came down here. I would estimate about 400 students throughout the streets, on the stoops of their dorms, all Northeastern students and Berkeley College students. We have some video we shot on our iPhones for our viewers, just elated, excited men and women, young men and women telling me, we can rest now. We are relieved. This is a huge day for Boston.
I asked, were you really scared? Because you saw them so jubilant, and you wonder, is just an excuse to go out and party on a Friday night? But, no, they said they were very scared and they just realized how big a deal this capture, having it happen in this way is.
And one thing we want to point out again and again to our viewers as they watch this video of the celebration is we still have 58 people injured in the hospital, three in critical condition from this horrific attack, two children still hospitalized, four people killed, including that 8-year-old boy, Martin Richard, the police officer, Sean Collier, the Chinese student at B.U., Lingzi Lu, and also Krystle Campbell.
So, we have to remember them. As we see the joyous celebrations, that is wonderful, but we have to remember how devastating this was for the city of Boston -- Anderson.
COOPER: Remember -- remember them tonight and never forget moving forward.
We are just getting a photo of what we believe is the suspect on the ground as he was being apprehended. I want to take a look at this. We're going to be seeing this as you are seeing it for the first time.
There, you see law enforcement personnel in tactical gear. It looks like he is face down. You can see I guess -- I'm assuming that's the small of his back. It's not exactly clear. Oh, he's face up, I'm told. You see some of him. That's his stomach region, obviously, that area lit up.
John King, our Brian Todd, who had eyes on the scene early on when this was still very active, had reported that not only was there a chopper that had lights on the scene, but also they had kind of lit up the boat in which the suspect was allegedly hiding.
KING: And you had a sequencing of events I think that law enforcement officials are rightly so being quite proud of tonight, in the sense that you have a citizen call in this tip. You have the initial first-responders and then you have some gunfight.
That's initial police arriving at the scene and then immediately being told once they said they believed they had him isolated in that boat, stand back, just secure the location, don't let him get out. Let us send in the SWAT team. Let us send in the extra lights as it turned darkness.
The National Guard responded. FBI responded. So you had more equipment on the scene and more safety on the scene, and then using infrared from the helicopter up above to try to detect movements even through that shrink-wrap, using every means of technology to see what's going in that boat. As then as I think we were talking about earlier, it was the law enforcement on the scene decided, do we have everything we need, have we studied the situation closely enough, do we feel comfortable moving in now?
No explosives found on that scene, but they did not know that going in. They wanted to be extra careful. They evacuated some of the residents from nearby as well. And so they took their time. And then you see that photograph at the end. And, again, that is the stunning climax that is at the end of a week in a city that was stunned at the beginning.
COOPER: Mayor Giuliani, I kept thinking today of just how far all of us have come since -- since 9/11.
And I'm interested in your perspective on this, not just in terms of law enforcement capabilities, intelligence sharing, law enforcement groups operating together, which we certainly saw here in Boston, but just the involvement of citizens and the awareness level of citizens and their involvement, their sense of sort of defiance, their willingness to stand up in the face of terror, and also keep their eyes open, report what they see, to take -- you know, send in their photos, send in their videos.
And that really made the difference here.
GIULIANI: It sure did.
I mean, this is a great defense against terrorism, resiliency. It may be the strongest defense against terrorism. The whole idea of terrorist acts whether it's Islamic extremist terrorism or any other form of terrorism is to try to create chaos and try to create tremendous fear, try disrupt a society, try to ruin the institutions of a society. If they fail in doing that, then it makes it much more difficult for them to really sustain that effort over a period of time.
So, it's remarkable to me how much resiliency people demonstrated in the last couple of days. Frankly, I saw the same thing in New York. The first day --
COOPER: Sure --
GUILIANI: -- after September 11, firefighters put the flag up immediately. And the way these people are cheering, every time workers would come down to ground zero, there would be thousands of people cheering and applauding.
The American people are very tough. They're very resilient. These people misjudge us when they think that by carrying out these horrible attacks.
Of course, we're going to be upset. Of course, we're going to mourn. It's going to affect us. But we're going move on with our way of life. We understand how valuable these rights are to us.
COOPER: As a citizen in New York at the time of 9/11 --
GUILIANI: I have a question --
COOPER: Just saying as a citizen -- go ahead.
GUILIANI: I have a question that I would like answered from this guy. I would like to know how much Beslan figures into this, because it came as a shock to me. I mean, I had a lot of possibilities as to who did this. I never would have thought it was someone in any way connected to Beslan which I don't think of as being particularly anti- American. I would -- when I say Beslan, I mean -- I mean Chechnya, because I was in Russia at the time the Beslan attacks took place.
The question is --
GUILIANI: The question is, is this a motivation that has -- motivation that has spread Chechen terrorism to the United States or was that a hook that these people were radicalized? I think it would make a very big difference. We should find that out.
COOPER: Beslan, of course the situation where Chechen separatists, Islamic radicals took over a school in the town of Beslan, literally put explosive device, gathered all the students into a main room, put an explosive device, hanging over that room, an extraordinarily horrific situation there.
Jeff Beatty, you had a comment?
JEFF BEATTY: I wanted to follow up on something that the mayor said. About the public and something you said about the public. What we as Americans need to understand is the war on terror -- I know we don't say that term necessarily -- but our conflict with terror is like dealing with crime.
You can declare a war on crime, war on drugs, whatever, and you're going to make great progress. You may never totally eradicate it. That's something we need to get into our national psyche. This won't be the last time that something like this happens here. We have to just understand that it will be a part of life from time to time.
But we're going to get better, as you said, with every incident. We're going to look at what we did right, what we did wrong, what we need to improve upon.
BEATTY: And so, we just have to have the mindset that we're going to improve. But as we did after 9/11 and the people of Boston did, we have to be able to stand strong and say you're never going to defeat us. And that's just something that I think our public is capable of doing. I think they showed it here.
COOPER: Keep calm and carry on, as the British said during World War II, during the Blitz.
We're going to take a short break. Our coverage continues in just a moment.
COOPER: Applause in the streets of Boston, people chanting "USA, USA," for the arrest of the second suspect in the Boston marathon bombing. What a week it has been. What a night it has been.
A new image of the second of two brothers, the second of two Boston marathon bombing suspect in custody. This is the new image, 19-year-old Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, a Chechen American, came over at age 8 in 2002, became a citizen on September 11, 2012, I believe it was.
His older brother Tamerlan killed last night in a shoot-out with police in Watertown, about 20 minutes west of here. Tamerlan not a U.S. citizen but he did have a green card. He came here at age 20, about four years -- about -- yes, came here at age of 20. He died at the age of 26.
Tonight in Watertown, it all ended. The younger suspect cornered in a backyard in a boat in dry dock, shrink-wrapped in the backyard for the winter. A neighbor's tip led police to the boat. First in daylight, a volley of gunfire. Listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is happening here?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Also, flash-bang grenades. Then, later this report on police radio --
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have movement in the boat. He just sat up. He is moving, flailing about.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: And just around 8:40 Eastern Time, around 8:44 as I recall, the 19-year-old was taken into custody, taken to the hospital. Back with our panel now, former mayor of New York, Rudy Giuliani, Fran Townsend, Jeff Toobin, Jeffrey Beatty, Juliette Kayyem, Peter Bergen.
Also joining us right now is Luis Vasquez, someone who knew the older suspect and coached the younger suspect when he was in high school.
Luis, I appreciate you joining us very much.
You saw them both the last time about two years ago.
LUIS VASQUEZ, KNOWS THE BOMBING SUSPECTS: About two years.
COOPER: First of all, Tamerlan, you knew him more than the younger suspect, right?
VASQUEZ: That is correct.
COOPER: How did you know him?
VASQUEZ: Tamerlan and I were friend, just in the hallway. The way we got to know each other was my wife -- sweetheart, high school girlfriend -- she was friends with the sister, her name was Bella. So him being a protective big brother, that's how I got to know him. And ever since then we kind of would have lunch here and there, see each other after high school here and there.
Then, about two years ago he just kind of disappeared. I wouldn't see him around anymore. What kills my curiosity, I'm sure a lot of people also, is that what happened in the past year or so that made them want to do this. I just -- it's -- it's incredible. It's so horrendous.
That's not who we knew as people growing up. And even -- COOPER: We believe sometime in the last two years he went to Russia for six months. Did you know him at that point, or was --
VASQUEZ: I didn't, no. I would see him around, and I stopped seeing him. He was just gone. I would ask people and no one knew anything. All of a sudden he's back. He came back in a loud way.
COOPER: We heard that he had a growing interest in religion, a growing interest in his Chechen roots. Did he speak of those --
VASQUEZ: He hardly ever did. He was proud of his dedication to boxing. He wanted --
COOPER: He wanted to be a competitive booker?
VASQUEZ: Yes. He would sign up for tournaments like the Golden Gloves which is known here. And he met my cousin David through that. He was always available to him. He embraced that role.
And he felt that he was the leader of his family. He would look out for them all the time.
COOPER: The father is living in Dagestan. The mother is back in Dagestan as well. She was here more I guess in recent years than the father was. Did you ever meet the parents?
VASQUEZ: I never met the parents. I never did. My wife did.
VASQUEZ: She's been over to the house.
COOPER: The younger suspect now, Dzhokhar, you were his coach, part time coach, during high school, playing soccer. We also understand that he liked to wrestle. When was he like?
VASQUEZ: He was a normal kid. That term is being tossed around. He is a normal kid. I'm thankful that he's alive, because now we can get some answers. I think we all deserve that.
But nothing set him aside from the ordinary.
COOPER: How did he compare to his older brother?
VASQUEZ: OK, so they were pretty different. The older brother was more reserved. He was a little more serious. He did have a sense of humor. But he wasn't so outgoing like the little brother was. The little brother was more of a popular kid. He got --
COOPER: Did they seem close? Did it seem like one followed the other?
VASQUEZ: Because of the age difference, he didn't talk about his little brother much. I think they're seven years apart. So, at that time in high school, I think the little brother would be 11 or so.
COOPER: Did the brothers live together with their mother and sisters?
VASQUEZ: Yes. They all lived together.
COOPER: That was in Cambridge?
COOPER: Did you spend time at the house?
VASQUEZ: I did not. Just outside of school.
COOPER: OK. Obviously it's got to be surreal to see these two --
VASQUEZ: I'm still waiting to wake up from this nightmare. I'm glad that suspect number two was caught because now I'm seeing people smile. People are celebrating. This is amazing.
And at the same time, we can't forget about the victims and everyone affected by this tragedy. It's just that at the end of the day, bottom line, the crimes don't fit the memories that a lot of us have of these two guys.
COOPER: Yes. Luis Vasquez, appreciate your joining us very much.
VASQUEZ: Take care.
COOPER: Obviously there are a lot of people who knew these two, who have a lot of questions tonight as law enforcement does, as well.
Peter Bergen is also still standing by.
Peter, in past cases where we have seen people, American citizens, naturalized American citizens, become radicalized, I think back to a number of Somali youth who ended up going to Somalia. If memory serves me, the first suicide bombing in Somalia several years ago was actually an American.
PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yes. I mean, I think, you know, the -- the kind of conventional wisdom is that Americans would never engage in suicide operations, as you point out, Anderson. There's now been three cases of American committing suicide in Somalia. Once you have Americans committing suicide overseas in a way kind of a big barrier is breached. We saw British citizens conduct suicide operations overseas, and then we saw them attack in London in 2005.
And I think one of the questions for investigators here is the extent to which these two brothers went into this knowing that they would die. You know, in a way, they were able to extend this series of attacks by not conducting a conventional suicide operation. In a sense like the Mumbai attacks where the attackers went in knowing that eventually they would die, but spreading out the whole event over three days. I think that's the kind of thing that we've seen in Boston, Anderson.
COOPER: It is interesting. Our Chris Lawrence earlier reporting, talking to people on the campus where the younger suspect went to school, saying that he was seen on campus over the last several days. Even at the gym working out. And certainly seems that they planned out this bombing if, in fact, they are the ones who perpetrated this bombing. They certainly seem to have planned it out. Didn't seem to plan out much of an end game. Didn't seem to plan out what would happen next.
Mayor Giuliani's standing by. I know, John King, you have a question for the mayor?
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Mr. Mayor, this is a sad question to ask on an evening when we should be celebrating the arrests. But because the older brother was questioned at the request of a foreign government back several years ago, do you expect political questions now about whether the FBI should have kept an eye on him? Whether there was some loss of, you know, chain of command and control, if you will?
Or you see statements tonight with everybody praising the administration and praising law enforcement. But as you know, the word politics often comes to play in the wake of these things.
GIULIANI: Yes, yes. It took about four months after September 11 for all that to happen. Maybe five month.
It really depends on what that was all about. The Russian government for years, as Fran Townsend knows, has been telling us that we should take the Beslan situation much more seriously than we do. From our point of view, we've often thought that Putin has been too harsh and difficult in dealing with it.
So, I don't know how that request from the Russian government was received by us. Did we see it as a legitimate request? Or did we see it as they're trying to kind of bring us into their approach to -- to what's going on in Chechnya?
So, I don't know. It's really going to depend on the substance of it. How much information was there, was it solid information, or was it just the Russians trying to sort of -- was seen as the Russians trying to inveigle us into the whole Chechnya mess that they're dealing with?
COOPER: Peter Bergen, if memory serves me correct, there have been one or two instances where the FBI have conducted interviews with people who then later went on to commit terrorist act or crimes. The man who shot up the recruiting station, if memory serves me, and correct me if I'm wrong, he had previously been interviewed by the FBI. Correct?
BERGEN: Yes. I mean, the two tactical instances of this post- 9/11, the guy who shot up the Little Rock, Arkansas, Army recruiting station that you refer to, Anderson. His name is Carlos Bledsoe. He was a subject of FBI interest. He went to Yemen, became further radicalized. Came back, acquired a weapon, and shot a soldier and killed him a few years back.
Another instance is Major Nidal Hasan, the case we're familiar with, at Ft. Hood, Texas. You know, his communications to Yemen, to Anwar Awlaki, the leader in Yemen, were being tracked to the joint terrorism task force in the area around Ft. Hood where this guy worked. Unfortunately, they were interpreted as being part of his normal kind of communications that he would use being an army psychologist which was Major Nidal Hasan was an Army psychologist.
That was a huge mistake. These were not normal communications, not consistent with the typical work of an Army psychologist. And it was an opportunity that unfortunately was missed.
But going to Mayor Giuliani's point, the fact is I think the controversy surrounding that missed opportunity with Major Nidal Hasan subsided relatively quickly.
COOPER: Juliette Kayyem standing by, formerly with Homeland Security here in Massachusetts.
JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN ANALYST: I think over the next couple of days, we're going to hear a lot of words about who these guys were -- jihadists, terrorists, lots of words, and where they come from. So what we should do is sort of focus on the case against them right now because that information will come over time.
And it may be, I have to be honest, sometime we never find out. Sometimes we don't know what animated a person at a certain moment to go on a killing spree. It could be something like Columbine, or it could be something like this.
So, that's going to -- I think the significant aspect of tonight is sort of this commitment by the administration. Regardless of Miranda, as Jeff was saying, it's probably that we don't actually need what he's going to say or disclose before a court. That they're going to put this through a criminal just system like every other case and treat it like, you know, within Article 3 court. And that's going to be very important.
I think that's an important statement for what happened this last week and for, you know, for Boston which has a history with the Constitution. I think it's a really important moment.
COOPER: Our Chris Lawrence is standing. We're just learned the hospital where the suspect has been taken, Boston's Beth Israel Deaconess.
Chris Lawrence is standing by.
Chris, what are you hearing?
CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN PENTAGON COOPER (via telephone): Yes, Anderson, standing right outside. And there's a pretty incredible police presence around Beth Israel. It's a fairly large campus. And there are literally officers posted on just about every corner surrounding it.
When we first arrived here a while back, we did see an ambulance being led up to Beth Israel by about 10 motorcycle officers. So there was a caravan of cars and motorcycles leading an ambulance into the area around Beth Israel. Now, of course, we have been told the suspect has been brought to Beth Israel, to the hospital here, and there is a tremendous police presence here right now.
COOPER: Chris, as you're talking, we can show that picture we showed earlier of the suspect in the back of an ambulance. Again, not a very clear picture. But it is the picture that we have of the suspect -- actually, that's the suspect being apprehended, laying face up on the ground as law enforcement secures the suspect. You see some of his stomach there.
There's also a shot later of -- that's the shot of them taking him to the ambulance.
Chris, we don't have any more information on the level of his condition. We've been told it was serious. The injuries we believe sustained, I talked to the police commissioner in Boston a short time ago. He believes those injuries were likely sustained the previous evening, last night, in that shoot-out when he and his brother had a shoot-out and used explosive again law enforcement and his brother was killed.
Do you have any more on the full extend of his injury?
LAWRENCE: Not yet. I think we should caveat that in that that is a law enforcement official, you know, sort of gauging the injuries whereas medical personnel would be likely perhaps to classify thing a little bit differently. You know, looking at his injuries, perhaps in a different light.
So that is what we are waiting on now to hear from some of the doctors and representative here at Beth Israel to get a better idea of exactly and more specifically what injuries he sustained and what condition he is in now that he's been brought here to receive care. I can tell you we were at -- with the other hospitals nearby, and the presence has been beefed up at all of them.
We saw state police officers. I asked one of them, wouldn't normally it just be a Boston police officer here? He said, yes, but we pretty much can deploy all throughout the area. So, a massive police presence. And from the folks that I've spoken with, unlike you would see on any normal day at Beth Israel.
COOPER: Chris Lawrence, I appreciate that reporting. Chris outside Boston's Beth Israel Deaconess Hospital where we have confirmed the suspect has been taken. We'll take a short break.
Our coverage continues in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: Welcome back. The breaking news tonight, of course, it is over. The second of two Boston bombing suspects is in after a harrowing 24-hour chase and manhunt.
Joining us now is a woman named Amy Kilzer, a friend of the 19- year-old suspect, acquaintance of the dead older suspect.
Amy, I appreciate you joining us.
You knew the mother of these bombers. You and your mother and sister went to her for years for facials in her own home. I know you met the younger brother while you were there.
Describe the experience inside that home. What were the dynamics like?
AMY KILZER, KNOWS THE TSARNAEV FAMILY: Well, we went there after she got fired from the spa. And she said that we could keep coming to see her. So we went to her house instead.
And it was always just very busy, like they had a very large family. They were always around. There were little kids that they were taking care of. It's like very loud. People there all the time.
COOPER: So, let me ask you, how many years did you go there for?
KILZER: Probably since like middle school, and I'm a sophomore in college now.
COOPER: OK. So did you see a change in the family over time? Did you see -- I understand you saw some evolution in the mother in terms of the things that she would speak about.
KILZER: Yes. When I first started -- when I first met her and started seeing and eccentric outfits. And I realized maybe a year or two ago when I was there she went to put the guest pass in my car, and before she left the house, she put a head scarf on. I realized that she was wearing -- I didn't realize without the head scarf that she was wearing a full black outfit and was completely covered with her head scarf when she went out.
And that was completely new, because she used to wear these crazy, crazy outfits.
COOPER: I also understand the mother started to quote conspiracy theories about September 11 to you at one point. What was she saying?
KILZER: She never said anything to me about it. My sister was the one who wrote that article where she talked about that. I know she got a lot more --
COOPER: Your sister wrote a blog post about it.
KILZER: -- a lot more religious -- she wrote an article about the family. And she talked about when she said that to her. But she's a writer and likes to ask a lot of questions to people. COOPER: What did the mother say to your sister?
KILZER: She asked her about her religion and when they came to the country, and somehow it came up. I don't -- I don't think my sister was specifically asking about 9/11. She said that she thought this it was a conspiracy theory, it was the government, and it was to set up Americans to dislike Muslims.
COOPER: Do you know where she got that idea? I know in the writing your sister said the mother seemed to have quoted her older son, Tamerlan.
KILZER: The son. Yes. I'm not sure exactly where, you know, she -- if she head it and heard it and told the son and the son also believed it or if the son was the one convincing her. It was definitely something that the family had talked about.
COOPER: Amy, I appreciate you joining us. Again, we're trying to gather as many pieces of information as possible.
KILZER: Yes, of course.
COOPER: Thank you very much for talking with us.
John, is there something you want to --
KING: I want to add that one of the victims we've been mourning this week is an 8-year-old boy from my neighborhood, Dorchester, growing up. His family issued this statement, I want to read it to you, the Richard family.
"Our family wishes to salute the thousands of officers and agents from the Boston, Cambridge, and Watertown Police Departments, state police, FBI, ATF and police departments who worked and collaborated around the clock to bring the perpetrators to justice. But we also thank the citizens and the businesses."
And here's the key line I think for all of us on this night, "It worked. And tonight our community is once again safe from these two men." Then the family goes out to say, "Sadly, none of this will bring our beloved Martin back, reverse the injuries this inflicted our family and nearly 200 others." And they go on -- the family goes on, "Pray for the rest of the families still recovering."
I think you see that from one of the family most hurt, unthinkable to bury an 8-year-old boy. Even from those families, some relief and turning the page tonight.
COOPER: And a mother injured in the head, his sister lost a limb, a leg. She just started Irish dancing, a little girl. I talked to a family friend who said she's very determined. And he's convinced she will continue to dance in the future -- Juliette.
KAYYEM: As we finish up a long week, it's not over for the city, obviously. We have a lot of healing. But also there are a lot of lessons learned. There's going to be a lot more politics in this, as John said, about the case, a lot of questions about immigration and immigration reform.
But what's important to remember is there will be a learning process also on the response. How did this happen, did the -- how did the police perform and how can they perform better the next time. Unfortunately, we live in a time when there's a lot of people who do a lot of really bad things. And we have to anticipate that that will be the case.
And so, that lesson will continue, as well as the investigation and case go into the future.
COOPER: Mayor Giuliani, obviously something like this can easily happen again. Your message to all of us, to citizens out there about the future.
GIULIANI: My message is that we have to believe in the fact that we can deal with this, that we can handle it. Hopefully we'll do everything we can to prevent it. Over the last 12 years, I think both the Bush and the Obama administrations have done remarkable work in preventing many more of these things.
And when they do happen, we have to come together as a country and support each other. This should not be politicized. I would be disappointed if we ended up trying to politicize this, trying to make some point about immigration or gun control or -- or Republican/Democrat. We all were hurt as a nation. We should all heal together as a nation.
COOPER: I want to thank all our panel who have been working with us really all throughout this week but also especially these last 23, 24 hours. It really was 24 hours ago, around 10:00 last night when that report of a robbery at a convenience store kicked off what was the final end game in this manhunt that as Mayor Giuliani said and Juliette echoed, it is not over. It is the beginning of a whole new phase.
And final notes now. As John King mentioned about the people who should not be forgotten and should be remembered long after the suspects fade into history and we forgot their names as hopefully we will one day. History should not remember these two young men's names.
The MIT campus police officer who died last night, shot in his squad car, history should remember him. His name is Sean Collier. MIT's police chief says Collier looked at police work as a calling, that he was born to be a police officer. Sean Collier was just 26 years old.
And we also remember and should always remember the three people who were killed in Monday's bombings, 29-year-old Krystle Campbell who went to cheer on runners at the marathon every single year. Family says that Krystle was sweet and kind, always smiling.
Martin Richard, who John talked about, just 8 years old. A third grader, a kind-hearted boy who loved the Boston Bruins.
And Lingzi Lu, originally from China, she was a grad student of Boston University studying math and studying statistics.
We will remember them tonight. And moving forward, we will remember them all. Live coverage continues right here on CNN, starting with "Erin Burnett Outfront."