Return to Transcripts main page
ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT
Suspect Number Two Caught
Aired April 19, 2013 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ERIN BURNETT, HOST: And good evening, I'm Erin Burnett live tonight in Watertown, Massachusetts. Behind me there was so much celebrating going on, there still are fire trucks that go by, police cars going by, and people coming out on the streets to celebrate them. That has been the mood here tonight.
We also want to show you as we talk about -- we're going to be joined by some people here who watched what happened today, people who actually saw the scene, people whose homes were searched, saw people go into handcuffs, saw the sharpshooters, exactly what happened, that the world was watching happened here today. And we're going to talk to the people who saw it.
I also want to show you the first images that we have in of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev being arrested and treated at the scene. This is the picture that we have. And as we put it up on the screen, I want to tell you exactly what we're looking at because it can take a second to orient yourself on this picture. He's lying on the ground. You see the line of his jeans, his underwear sticking out, his bare stomach and then above where you see the policeman you can see his bloodied face.
That is the only pictured we have as he was getting ready to go to the hospital where he is right now being treated tonight.
This is what happened today. A Watertown, Massachusetts, resident out on a walk, out on a walk -- this all came because of a tip. He saw blood on a boat in a neighbor's back yard. And then, in the words of this tipster, saw a man covered with blood under a tarp. That resident then called police. The police responded, and hundreds of shots were fired through -- immediately when they responded on this. Police used a robot to pull the shrink wrap off the boat.
And from a helicopter they were actually able to use heat imaging technology to see that indeed there was a body in that boat. They did that actually from the heat monitoring imagery up on a helicopter.
The suspect was alive. They realized that because of the thermal imaging. They captured him. And he was taken to the hospital in serious condition. And there is an image, you can see of him, through the ambulance window that we have.
When that happened, there was cheering by police, celebrations by the Boston Police on Twitter and then immediately celebrations by people here in Watertown and around Boston, crowds cheering "U.S.A., U.S.A." It was a moment of true elation and jubilation for so many people.
BURNETT: And you can hear a little of it right now. When anybody goes by that's affiliated with law enforcement, you're getting that celebration even here in Watertown right now at 11:00 Eastern standard time.
I want to bring in Drew Griffin, Susan Candiotti and Brian Todd, all of them were here in Watertown today on the scene. Susan is standing with me.
And Susan, tell me exactly how it happened, because when I hear about that, that they had a helicopter and they saw the thermal imaging, it is just incredible how they were able to do this.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is amazing. And even the minutes leading up to it, standing right on this spot when the first gunshots were heard and then all of a sudden, all of a sudden you saw building -- you saw police vans going by. And going -- they were going by so quickly that the back doors were flapping open, and it looked as though the SWAT team had to hold on for dear life. They went zipping over to the scene.
And then yes, it all happened because someone saw something and said something, noticed that tarp, it looked unusual. They were out for a walk, saw the blood. They used a robot, you know, using modern technology to go up and remove the tarp, imagine that. And then from up ahead, Massachusetts State Police used thermal imaging to determine that in fact there was someone in there.
They brought in flash bangs at one point where you pop, you make a noise to make sure is there is any movement that would cause them to move. And eventually they moved in and made the arrest.
They said he was bloodied, but they believe that was from injuries from last night.
BURNETT: Right. I think that's important to emphasize that they say that's from injuries last night.
Drew, what can you tell us about the shots. I mean, I know that you -- there was a moment today when you and I were both on television and you literally had to throw your IFB where you can hear our control room out of the ear, because all the shots started happening behind you.
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It was right after the news conference which said basically he got away. So the whole scene here was, you know, downsizing in size and in nervousness and excitement. We were all kind of disappointed and then all of a sudden shots, shots ringing out. And the whole scene changed on a dime. Just hundreds of police cars, SWAT, everything, ramped up again and tore down the road to where this event took place.
It was an amazing switch of emotions here. BURNETT: And Brian, you heard the negotiations going down, and I know you literally at one point climbed up on to a roof nearby to see what was happening.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Erin. Before we got on the roof, we had actually snuck pretty close to the scene through back streets, alleys, parking lots. And at one point, we got to probably about 200 yards away from the boat where Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was holed up.
We started filming that. We saw them flood light the boat. We heard the police on loud speakers talking to him. We could clearly hear a couple of the phrases they were saying to him.
They said, "we know you're in there." They said, "come up with your hands up." They said, come out on your own terms." And they would sporadically just light that boat, they would really flood light it.
We heard them negotiating with him.
We did not really hear anything from him. We did not see him, but at that moment after we filmed a little bit of that, we were rushed by police saying how did you get back here, you've got to get out of here, you're in the crossfire area. So, they kind of shuttled us out of there and kind of kept yelling at us to get out of there as we pushed further away.
Then we snuck up on a rooftop nearby and we didn't see quite as much as we had before, but we saw some activity there. And at that point the scene had calmed down a little bit. It was -- we believe after the suspect was apprehended.
There was police activity in the back yard. There were flashlights going on, going around checking. There was a police chopper hovering above the perimeter area there.
Later we then walked toward the front of the house, when the area had cleared, the perimeter had cleared a little bit. And we got a little bit of video from the front of the house from about 100 yards away or so.
BURNETT: And I'm not sure which of you -- please jump in who knows the answer to this question, but you know we were talking about hundreds of rounds of fire, but obviously they were trying to take him alive. I know he was also shooting. But how much do we know about how that went down?
GRIFFIN: I only know from what I heard. And I didn't hear hundreds of rounds of fire. I heard about two dozen shots from automatic rifles it sounded like -- not automatic rifles, automatic weapons. They were that quickly burst together. Those were the only shots I heard until the arrest came.
But again, we're down the street here. It was pretty quiet when that happened. But that's all I heard. TODD: And through some of CNN's other reporting, Erin, we know that he engaged police even though he had been at least slightly wounded at the time. He was wounded at the time he engaged police with some gunfire. So he was doing something inside that boat to try to hold them off at some point.
GRIFFIN: But you know what's interesting, Erin -- and I'll just add this final thing -- from where the event took place last night to where he was eventually found, I would say a 19-year-old kid could run that in about 10, 15 minutes tops. So literally while the police were searching all around here, all day today, all last night, it apparently he was here.
BURNETT: He was there.
And Susan, I mean, that is what is incredible about this. Last night, they said that he ran on foot. But it seemed like -- like Drew said, it was right after the press conference, it seemed that they didn't have any leads ,that they were sort of saying people can go back about their business. The implication being we don't even know if he's in Watertown, that he may have left the dragnet.
CANDIOTTI: It's interesting to note, I mean, we haven't -- you know, this is still all playing out. We don't have all the details yet. But they did indicate in a news conference that they did have lead, and certainly we were here through the day and they were looking around, around, all over the place.
OK, we're switching out microphones here. But in any case, they spent hours and hours going from neighborhood to neighborhood. And they were looking to see whether he might be in this house or that neighborhood. And we would get as close as we could to see what they were doing and were shooed back each time.
And as you said, as it turn out, there he was. And I know that the woman who lives next door to that house told our Elizabeth Cohen that in fact no one had checked around her house this day. But it turns out that one person going out for a walk spotted him in that boat. And really it was -- it was just after they had been made an announcement that it was okay for everyone to be out in the street. But still to be very, very cautious because it was still a very dangerous situation.
And it was only after that that that Drew reported hearing those two dozen gunshots. And our producer, as well, David Fitzpatrick. And everyone then went sailing down the street quickly. And that's when the whole thing unraveled.
BURNETT: Unraveled. And what was amazing is some of the earlier reporting, Brian, our Deb Feyerick, was saying that they believed him to be in a structure. This is how they were comfortable saying it as the news was breaking, a structure that he could have had access to without having help from an accomplice or from anyone else.
And I know that that's still an open question that they're trying to determine if anyone else at any point was ever involved. But you have to think, Brian, of how those moments went by last night in the middle of the night, in the dark when he was fleeing and he jumps into a boat.
TODD: That's right.
And you know, I was talking to my team as we were kind of making our way away from the scene. There's a very good chance, Erin, that he could have been in that boat for much of the day because when they were going through the houses in that neighborhood, they were really doing a very thorough job.
We interviewed a man whose house the SWAT team members combed through. And when he took us through his house and showed us what they were looking for, they -- they combed through just about every inch of every house in the neighborhood.
So if they weren't finding him then, there's a good chance that he was holed up inside that boat for much of the day.
BURNETT: All right. Well, thank you very much. Brian Todd, Susan Candiotti, Drew Griffin, our reporters on the scene.
Just an incredible day to be a part of and to witness and ending the way that it needed to end.
CANDIOTTI: Never seen anything like it and how this community has reacted, as well. And of course, we must never forget the victims, the victims.
BURNETT: The victims tonight, three of whom are still in critical condition, 58 of whom are still in the hospital. And as we know, four people were killed.
I want to bring in Jeff Beatty now who joins me. Jeff, former counterterrorism expert for the FBI and a consultant now for the army, joining me from the other side of Boston.
Jeff, this went down it would seem to be in a textbook fashion: the public rose to the occasion, the FBI put out exactly what they needed to put out, they captured the suspect, they captured the suspect alive. We don't know his condition tonight, but at this point we know that he is alive. This is how it should be done, isn't it?
JEFF BEATTY, COUNTERRORISM EXPERT: Well, you're absolutely right, you know. And when people do the look back, the after action, not to steal Julie's word, but the after action report on this and we look at what do we need to improve upon and what do we need to sustain, this will certainly be talked about, today's activities by the police department and all those involved, it'll certainly be talked about as an excellent example of how to get this done.
You know, they were deliberate, and yet when they needed to move with speed and dispatch, they moved with speed and dispatch. And then when they finally had the individual kind of in a known location, they decided to hold up, no rush. He wasn't going anywhere. And they let the proper specialized units and equipment get in place so they could have their choice of whether are we going to finish this in darkness, and make everything dark, are we going to use lights, and they did the smart thing. They talked him out.
Now we have an opportunity to learn more and help prevent the next incident, very well done.
BURNETT: And I can confirm now, we have just learned that the suspect, Dzhokar, is in serious condition right now. Obviously, that is short of critical condition, so he is serious condition now.
Across Boston, also, there is a memorial going on tonight. And these are the -- right near the finish line, just a few blocks away from the finish line of the Boston marathon where three people lost their lives, three people who were there that day are still right now in critical condition, 58 people that day of the nearly 200 injured tonight are still in the hospital. There's an impromptu memorial happening just a few blocks from that finish line.
And that is what we've seen around broader Boston. Here in Watertown, celebration, people -- people feeling euphoric. There's really no other word for it. And it feels like a sense of camaraderie and togetherness, something I've really never experienced before and was honored to be part of when I came out here.
Mike Sullivan also joins us now, the former acting director of the ATF. Jeff Beatty was just talking about this operation went down today, that it is seems as if it was -- it was executed perfectly, even down to the point that they were able to apprehend the suspect almost -- it was a little after, but really in one day.
MIKE SULLIVAN, FRM. DIR. ATF: Sure. Obviously you have to give them a great deal of credit for the tremendous work that they did in a very short period of time.
I know everybody was anxious about it, everybody was nervous about the fact that he was out and not apprehended. But law enforcement did exactly what they were supposed to do. And that's obviously to capture him. And they captured him alive.
BURNETT: And what about the technology? Susan Candiotti has been reported on the fact that they had a helicopter with thermal imaging ability. So they were able to -- once they got the tip -- this never would have happened without somebody here in Watertown calling it. That's the most important thing, a regular person made it happen.
But then they had the helicopter that was able to determine that there was someone in there.
SULLIVAN: Right. And they've trained for this. They've trained in terms of search, they've trained in terms of rescue, they've trained it in terms of going after a fugitive. I'm sure law enforcement realized that he was likely injured during the shoot-out the night before and that there might be evidence out there that actually could help lead them to him. And obviously blood evidence appeared to be one of the tips that, you know, one of the civilian witnesses saw.
BURNETT: That's right. And they said of course -- our understanding is right now that the injuries that you saw were inflicted last evening, that's our latest understanding. Again, we have a lot of questions still tonight.
I want to add Fran Townsend into the conversation with Jeff and Mike. And Fran, what is your feel about how this happened? You know, with the entire world watching and the United States facing something that it has not -- something like it that's been successful, as you look at since 9/11, and everything came together the way it needed to.
FRAN TOWNSEND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, Erin, I think I can summarize it best by saying to you I was sitting in the studio when the capture happened. And I got a text message from a friend and former colleague in Saudi Arabia saying, "congratulations, our hearts are with you."
The whole world watched us and watched how we reacted. This of the law enforcement at its finest. It was the teamwork -- Mayor Menino tweeted "teamwork" when he shook hands with Governor Deval Patrick. And that's what the world saw.
We were not cowed. We were not crumbled by it. There was a sadness and a memorial as you mentioned and shown the pictures and names of the victims. But they only inspired us. And it's the best of what really is the United States.
BURNETT: It seems that way.
And Mike, one other thing to emphasize here. You know, there's been talk even from the father of the suspects who, you know, didn't believe in their guilt and was not confident, didn't believe in the U.S. justice system, that they managed to take the suspect alive. And that means they're going to get incalculably important information from him. But it also sends a signal to the rest of the world of what justice in America is. You are you innocent until proven guilty and he will stand before the law.
SULLIVAN: Right. And obviously that's an important message. You know, capturing him alive is going to help from the law enforcement perspective, you know, to determine whether or not there -- anybody sells like-minded that could pose some great risk or harm. If he died in terms of the capture, they would still find out a lot of information, as well. but having him alive becomes very important.
I want to go Chris Lawrence now, because as you all know, just a moment ago I mentioned that we've learned about the suspect's condition. He's at Beth Israel Hospital in Boston. And Chris, what do you know?
CHRIS LAWRENCE: That's right, Erin. We're standing right outside Beth Israel Hospital. He was brought here a short time ago. When we first got on the scene, we saw an ambulance pulling up near Beth Israel flanked by about ten motorcycle officers. Almost a caravan escort bringing that ambulance in here.
If you remember, this is the same hospital basically where his older brother was brought earlier on Friday morning and he died. When he came here and when -- we try to think of injuries he may have sustained, we're hearing that his injuries were probably sustained in that gunfight, in that altercation that happened very early on Friday morning. If that's the case, you can look at some of the injuries that his brother had received when he was brought here. He was in cardiac arrest. The chief of emergency medicine here said his brother had suffered multiple gunshot wound as well as what appeared to be an -- injuries from an explosion or a blast.
Now we don't know if the younger brother has suffered those same injuries, but his condition is being described as serious, not critical but serious.
And we're also hearing that any updates on his medical condition will come from the FBI, not from the hospital itself. That is a break from normal protocol. Normally it would be the hospital that would be updating a patient's medical condition -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right.
And Chris, please don't go away. Let me go back to Jeff Beatty and say what do you think the significance is of that, that the FBI is going to be giving updates. Our understanding is at this moment that they are treating him as the high-value detainee designation group is going to be questioning him in the hospital. They're using the public safety exception to question him without giving him Miranda Rights.
BEATTY: Well, I think that the FBI taking this particular position -- certainly it is unusual. However, I wouldn't be surprised if after a day or so that it slacked off. I think that for the moment the FBI is probably taking that lead role because they want to be able to sensitized the normal public affairs personnel in the hospital to the sensitivity of this case and make sure that something is not accidentally said. But I don't see it as a role that the FBI intends to play out for very long.
BURNETT: All right.
We're going to -- thank you very much to all of you, we appreciate it, Fran, Jeff, Mike, our Chris Lawrence. We're going to be checking back in with him. And we're going to be following up here in a moment talking about the FBI, the fact that they had questioned the older suspect two years ago.
What happened? Why didn't they pick up anything then? Should they have? And then what happens here legally for suspect number two, who is in the hospital in serious condition tonight. All of that, plus the president of the United States speaks tonight after the suspect is apprehended. We're going to take a very brief break, and we'll be back with that.
BURNETT: The eyes of the world were watching the United States, watching Boston, watching Watertown, where U.S. law enforcement officials took suspect number two into custody tonight. He is in the hospital in serious condition.
The president of the United States weighed in about an hour ago with a speech to the country. And I want you to hear exactly what he said. Here's President Obama.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES; Good evening, everybody.
Tonight our nation is in debt to the people of Boston and the people of Massachusetts. After a vicious attack on their city, Bostonians responded with resolve and determination. They did their part as citizens and partners in this investigation. Boston police and state police and local police across the Commonwealth of Massachusetts responded with professionalism and bravery over five long days. And tonight because of their determined effort, we've closed an important chapter in this tragedy.
I've been briefed earlier this evening by FBI Director Mueller. After the attacks on Monday, I directed the full resources of the federal government to be made available to help state and local authorities in the investigation and to increase security as needed. Over the past week, close coordination among federal, state, and local officials sharing information, moving swiftly to track down leads has been critical to this effort.
They all worked as they should, as a team. And we are extremely grateful for that. We owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to all our outstanding law enforcement professionals.
These men and women get up every day. They put on that uniform. They risk their lives to keep us safe. And as this week showed, they don't always know what to expect. So our thoughts are with those who were wounded in pursuit of the suspects and we pray for their full recovery.
We also send our prayers to the Collier family who grieved the loss of their son and brother, Sean. He was born to be a police officer, said his chief at MIT. He was just 26 years old. And as his family has said, he died bravely, in the line of duty, doing what he committed his life to doing: serving and protecting others. So we're grateful to him.
Obviously tonight there are still many unanswered questions. Among them, why did young men who grew up and studied here as part of our communities and our country resort to such violence. How did they plan and carry out these attacks? And did they receive any help?
The families of those killed so senselessly deserve answers. The wounded, some of whom now have to learn how to stand and walk and live again, deserve answers. And so I've instructed the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security and our intelligence community to continue to deploy all the necessary resources to support the investigation, to collect intelligence, and to protect our citizens.
We will determine what happened. We will investigate any associations that these terrorists may have had. And we'll continue to do whatever we have to do to keep our people safe.
One thing we do know is that whatever heavy agenda drove these men to such heinous acts will not, cannot prevail. Whatever they thought they could ultimately achieve, they've already failed. They failed because the people of Boston refused to be intimidated. They failed because as Americans, we refuse to be terrorized. They failed because we will not waiver from the character and the compassion and the values that define us as a country, nor will we break the bonds that hold us together as Americans.
That American spirit includes staying true to the unity and diversity that makes us strong like no other nation in the world. In this age of instant reporting, tweets, and blogs, there's a temptation to latch on to any bit of information, sometimes to jump to conclusions. But when a tragedy like this happens with public safety at risk and the stakes so high, it's important that we do this right, that's why we have investigations, that's why we relentlessly gather the facts, that's why we have courts, that's why we take care not to rush to judgment not about the motivations of these individuals, certainly about entire groups of people.
After all, one of the things that makes America the greatest nation on Earth, but also one of the things that makes Boston such a great city is that we welcome people from all around the world, people from every faith, every ethnicity, from every corner of the globe.
So, as we continue to learn more about why and how this tragedy happened, let's make sure that we sustain that spirit.
Tonight we think of all the wounded still struggling to recover. Certainly we think of Krystle Campbell, we think of Lingzi Lu, we think of little Martin Richard. Their lives reflected all the diversity and beauty of our country and they were sharing a great American experience together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: And the president remembering the victims, which was something the governor of Massachusetts, Deval Patrick, also did, remembering the victims and thanking law enforcement.
I just want to play you a very brief clip of what the governor said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DEVAL PATRICK, GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS: On behalf of Krystle and Martin and Lingzi, on behalf of the MIT officer who was lost last night and the transit police officer who was injured, on behalf of the hundreds of people who were hurt by the explosions at the marathon, I want to say how grateful I am to the colonel, to the special agent in charge, Rick Deslauriers, to all of law enforcement who worked so well and so hard together, together to bring us to tonight's conclusion.
It was a very, very complicated case, a very challenging case, and there are still some questions remaining to be answered. But as the colonel said, because of that extraordinary collaboration and cooperation by all of the law enforcement resources and assets and, more to the point, people, professionals, who brought their A-game, we have a suspect in custody tonight.
I want to thank all the members of the public for their extraordinary patience, their participation in this investigation by reviewing photographs of their own and others that were up through the media, and we thank you for that. And helping us narrow in on these -- on these suspects. They were helpful and patient, and we are grateful for that, as well.
It's a night where I think we're all going to rest easy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: A lot of people are resting easy. And people -- people feeling a sense of relief and celebration, but of course with that horrible sorrow of all the people who are injured and who lost their lives with this terrible tragedy this week.
John Lawn joins me now, the state representative here in Watertown. John, when I was learning about Watertown today, I thought it was amazing that the motto is in the Foundation of Peace. And I thought it was so appropriate given how this has now ended.
You know a lot of the law enforcement, a lot of the police here who were involved in today's ending.
STATE REP. JOHN LAWN, WATERTOWN, MASSACHUSETTES: I do. And we're very grateful for the Watertown police department and all the officers who were engaged in this firefight last night with these criminals. And last night, two of our officers, I think Jeff Pugolis (ph), Timmy Menten (ph), Joe Reynolds (ph), a couple guys who were on their way home and heard the call come in on their radios and showed up in their personal cars...
BURNETT: This was when that first shoot-out happened last night when they went by the convenience store.
LAWN: The first shoot-out. And officer John McClellan's (ph) is another -- all good people who serve our community who we're very proud of for all their service and who risked their own lives last night for all of us. And we're very proud of them.
And it's certainly -- the community at large, today I spent the day at the incident command center. And you know, the governor, and Mayor Menino, all -- Ed Davis, who were all there. And it was an amazing -- from all of New England, law enforcement showed up all day from all over New England to lend a hand to capture these criminals. And we're just very proud of all of them.
BURNETT: And you also know the person who lives next door, the person who actually is -- had the boat with...
LAWN: Actually both.
BURNET: So, what do you know about this? I mean, did they have any idea -- we know that a tip came from someone who was walking by.
LAWN: No. Sure.
And -- what we heard is after the press conference that the governor gave around 6:00, 6:30 when they called things off, a friend -- Dave Haniberry (ph), who belonged to a yacht club with, went out to his yard, saw blood coming from a boat that's still in his yard. And he did call. And that's when we ended up finding the criminal.
BURNETT: From that call?
LAWN: From that call.
So the citizens of Watertown, the whole greater area of be Belmont, Waltham, Newton, Cambridge, they really greater Boston (ph) who really listened to the governor and listened to the people that this was a serious incident, stayed off the streets, and really all deserve an enormous amount of credit.
BURNETT: I mean, an incredible amount of credit.
I mean, the world was watching. And there are so many people who want and need and deserve justice who are now going to have it thanks to how law enforcement handled this. They were able to take the suspect and take him alive.
And you know, I was at the marathon on Monday. My sister-in-law ran it. We were all there. It was an emotional day for everybody who ran. The people who went to the marathon. And it's so nice for the families that have been affected that the services that will go on without this black cloud hovering over, that these people have been caught and they've been apprehended.
So I think it's a big relief to everybody, not only here in Watertown, Massachusetts, but across the country and across the world.
BURNETT: All right.
Well, John, thank you very much.
LAWN: Thank you.
BURNETT: We appreciate it.
LAWN: Thank you.
BURNETT: And we're very, very happy for you.
All right. Well, what happens next? That is the big question. What happens here?
Suspect number two, Dzhokhar is in the hospital tonight in serious condition. And he's being questioned right now. What happens? Is he going to have Miranda rights? That's a crucial question right now what the FBI will choose to do.
I want to bring in Paul Callan. I want to bring in Jeff Toobin. And I want to bring Mike Sullivan back, of course the acting director of the ATF. Thanks to all of you.
So, can you explain, Jeff, what's happening here? I want to get the exact phrasing right of my understanding is, that the high value designation group is the group that is now going to be able to question the suspect under the public safety exception to the Miranda rights. So they don't have to read the Miranda rights.
Can you just explain that to me, what that means?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: OK. Well, let's just start by addressing the question of is he in any physical condition to answer questions under any circumstances? His health is obviously in grave peril. So this all may be moot because he may not be capable of answering any questions with or without Miranda.
But assuming he is in don answer questions, the federal government has established a policy that says in certain very limited circumstances, for certain brief periods of time, there is a public safety exception to the usual requirement that suspects have to get Miranda warnings. This arises in the so called ticking bomb circumstance, when there is such an important public safety reason to protect the public that we don't give a Miranda warning before we start questioning.
Now, that apparently is what the -- has been invoked in the circumstance. Even in those circumstances doesn't mean he has to answer questions. He can simply say with or without Miranda, I'm not answering the questions. So we don't know whether he will answer questions.
If he does answer questions, it is not clear whether those statements can be used against him. They can be used for leads to identify other threats to public safety, There's no question about that. The legally ambiguous situation is whether any statements he makes without Miranda could be used against him if and when he goes to trial.
BURNETT: And Paul, I guess the question off of what Jeff is saying seems to be that right now that they are not sure. They had other people they were questioning today. They're not sure if there was anyone else who possibly could have been involved directly or tangentially. Therefore, that's why they would use the public safety exception.
And then once they could ascertain that that was not the case, then they would go ahead and do this through Miranda rights, right?
PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: yeah. And I also wanted to touch on what I think is the biggest public misconception about the Miranda case that's caused by television. When I counsel my own clients -- as a matter of fact, one was asking me the same question they always ask. Do you know what it is? Hey, they didn't give me my Miranda rights, is the charge going to be dismissed? A lot of people think you don't give Miranda right, you have to dismiss the charges. That is not at all true. All the Miranda decision says is that you have to be advised of your right to have a lawyer, and if you confess after that, that confession cannot be used if they didn't advise of your rights, but you can be convicted on other evidence. And there's a ton of other evidence in this case.
So, I don't think the Miranda thing is going to play out as being particularly important in the end. They'll convict him if he lives. And if they don't give him Miranda warnings, maybe they'll get useful intelligence and we'll find out whether there are other individuals involved in this conspiracy.
BURNETT: And, Mike, do you think that's part of it, the other individuals involved? As someone who's been in the situations before, how big a concern is that, of the decisions tonight?
SULLIVAN: Sure. It's not about getting additional evidence against him. The public safety exception is to find out whether or not there is explosive devices out there that would cause some harm to the public...
BURNETT: Which they're worried about. They don't know where all those pipe bombs went.
SULLIVAN: Sure. So, it's an absolute right to use the public safety exception in these circumstances. Or is there an act of conspiracy beyond him and his brother, that's critically important for law enforcement to get to the heart of that as quickly as possible.
BURNETT: That's an important point, Jeff. I mean, we've been talking about, you know, they thought during the day that he could have some of those pipe bombs with him that he and his brother were using last night to throw out the car window. They weren't on him. So I don't know if they have found all of them. They were doing controlled detonations this afternoon, but it's unclear.
What sentence, if convicted, what's the sentence? When you look at the state versus the federal, what would -- would this be life, would this be death. What would it be?
TOOBIN: Well, this is a very interesting legal issue that has not been settled. One is the federal government can clearly prosecute him for this acted of terrorism which can -- this act of terrorism which can carry the death penalty in federal court. The Massachusetts law, Massachusetts does not have the death penalty. An issue that has never been settled is can the federal government obtain a death penalty and enforce the death penalty in a state that doesn't have the death penalty. That's -- that's a legal issue that may be -- may be raised by this case if federal government decides to proceed with a capital case.
CALLAN: And you know, Erin, there's a certain irony in this case on the death penalty also, and that is the last imposition of the death penalty by the federal government in the United States was to Timothy McVeigh in the Oklahoma City bombing.
CALLAN: So the last really major American terrorist who was tried in an American court and convicted, Timothy McVeigh, got the death penalty.
So it's very rarely given in the United States, even by the feds.
BURNETT: And a final word, mike, you would say...
SULLIVAN: Well, the federal government can clearly pursue the death penalty. They pursued the death penalty in Massachusetts when I was serving as United States attorney and they secured a death penalty sentence. So they can, and they should be pursuing the death penalty against him.
BURNETT; Mike, Jeff, Paul, thank you very much, appreciate all of your taking the time.
We're live here in Watertown tonight. Yes, it has calmed down, but there are a couple of people here who are just blocks away from what happened today who were searched, who were with the police. They're going to tell you what happened in those crucial hours before suspect number two was taken into custody. We're going to take a brief break and be back live from Watertown with that.
BURNETT; All right, I am back live from Watertown, Massachusetts where suspect number two is apprehended right now at Beth Israel Hospital in serious condition. Our Chris Lawrence is there and has some new video and understanding of what's happening -- Chris.
LAWRENCE: Yeah, Erin. When we got here a good while ago, this is what we saw -- you can take a look at this video, basically it was an ambulance streaming down the street right in front of Beth Israel. We saw it turn into the hospital. It was basically being led down the street by about ten motorcycles.
Now we cannot say with certainty that the suspect was inside that ambulance. But we do know that he was taken here to Beth Israel as his brother was earlier on Friday morning after that shoot-out. And when we think about his injuries, we think about what the Boston police chief said earlier tonight when he said that the injuries were likely received during that initial gunfight on early Friday morning. When they found him, he was covered in blood. And if you compare, if you think about how his brother was injured, when his brother was brought here, he was in cardiac arrest. He had multiple gunshot wounds, probably some injuries from a blast or explosion.
Now seems that his younger brother's injuries may be not be quite obviously as severe as that. But again, if he was injured in that gunfight, that means he had about 24 hours of being on the run with those injuries before being brought here to the hospital, Erin.
BURNETT: That's right. Very unclear what will happen.
But as Chris says, a big difference between being in serious and being in critical condition. And the suspect number two is in serious condition.
I'm joined now by two people who were here today in Watertown, the scene that the world was watching. You were eyewitnesses to much of what happened last night and today. Cass Sapir joins me along with Hicham Daboussi. And thanks to both of you. I know it has been a long day.
And it began, Cass, last night. You and your wife were dead asleep. Right before 1:00 in the morning, you heard the shots?
CASS SAPIR, WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 12:50, we heard five very loud noises, rapid successions, followed by "come out or" and then five more rapid succession shots. We figured at that point it was automatic handgun fire.
BURNETT: And did you think at this point this is related to the Boston Marathon, or were you not sure to make the connection?
SAPIR: It was absolutely in the back of our mind. I mean, we got on the floor in the bedroom and tried to strategize what to do next.
BURNETT: You did.
All right. And I want to talk about what happened today. Hicham, first let me ask you, you were just two blocks away, right, from everything that happened.
HICHAM DABOUSSI, WITNESS: Yes, I was.
And so basically I heard three loud explosions basically and then gunshots after that. It was obvious from the police presence that it was more than just, you know, something of -- something routine. So it was obviously it was related to the Boston Marathon, I think. And they were everywhere.
BURNETT: And then today, talk to me about what happened. You saw the tactical teams, your house was searched. DABOUSSI: Yes. My house was searched twice: once in the morning, once in the afternoon.
BURNETT: And how did they search it? I mean, sorry to interrupt you, I'm just curious, what did they do when they came in?
BURNETT: So, when they came in, basically it was a whole tactical team. They came in together. They ask you to stand somewhere, and basically they just go through the whole thing. They're very methodical. They went through my house room by room, they went through the basement, they went through everything.
So they're very professional about it. And I was glad that they were as good as they were.
BURNETT: And they came twice?
DABOUSSI: They came twice.
BURNETT: All right.
And then what happened? There were people you knew who were actually in handcuffs at one point?
DABOUSSI: So, basically two houses down from me, you know, when the tactical team went there, they ended up handcuffing everybody that was in that house. That was kind of scary because we thought they found something. So, they took three men and two women basically out handcuffed. And they questioned them outside and let them go after that.
So that was a pretty tense moment. And, you know, they handled it well, I think.
BURNETT: Extremely tense, I can imagine.
I mean, Cass, what was it like today as you were not allowed -- you're not allowed to leave your house, They're going door to door through this entire town..
SAPIR: The best way I can characterize it, it was very long periods of silence followed by sudden periods of, you know, many cops, all different stripes, all different -- you know, badges coming through the neighborhood and then leaving and another period of silence.
So it was very strange, very eerie. But we're very thankful it turned out the right way.
And Hicham, so what were the tactical teams like? I mean, how many people were in them? When they came in -- you know, everyone wants to have an understanding of this, you know, how were they armed, how organized were they, how many people in each group?
DABOUSSI: They were very well organized. So the number of people who came in to my house, actually it was six people.
BURNETT: Six people.
DABOUSSI: They were very well organized. There were multiple tactically teams outside. They were in their special vehicles. And they were very professional, very methodical. And they were not taking any chances. The house across the street from me is a house where a Watertown police officer lives. They went through the that house the same way they went through every other house.
so, they were very professional, very methodical. They were not taking any chances. And it gave me a whole new appreciation of what being a police officer means.
BURNETT: Right. Yes, a whole new appreciation of what this is like.
And were they also questioning people and asking questions, too?
They were asking questions and making sure people were okay, making sure that no one was being held hostage. You know, they did a great job.
BURNETT: And Cass, you were saying how it feels tonight. You both are out here. And I mean, it's a little quieter now although there are still people, as our viewers can see, going by, beeping, hollering. people were out dancing. And they were actually -- with the cordoned off area tape, you know, the yellow tape, were waving it around and celebrating. Is this the first time you've ever felt this tightness as a community? That you're all out here sharing this thing that will be an unforgettable part of your lives?
SAPIR: Absolutely. I think everyone can say it is a very tight community, it's a sleepy community, it's a quiet community. So, it's funny to see it here.
But yes, I mean, it's a tremendous sense of euphoria and relief new it's over. And again, I think at the beginning, there was serious gunfight happening and a lot bravery on the part of the officers.
So we are thankful for that, especially in this community.
BURNETT: You must have so shocked, both of you, last night -- first of all, when you heard the shots. But when you actually realized, confirmed that this is your town and that they believe this guy is here, what went through your head at that time, Hicham?
DABOUSSI: What went through my head actually was, you know, does he have accomplices, or is he by himself?
BURNETT: You were afraid.
DABOUSSI: I was afraid. And I was more afraid because there were police officers outside going through the different driveways with flashlights and with their guns drawn. And then, so it was just very unsettling.
But I felt much better today, to be honest, because I saw all of the tactical teams, I saw how professional they were. And...
BURNETT: It felt under control.
DABOUSSI: And it felt like it was under control. I mean, they were just -- they were amazing. I'm very impressed.
Well, Hicham and Cass, thank you so much for taking the time, for staying up late, and for sharing your story and your town with the world tonight. So, thanks very much to both of you.
SAPIR: Thank you.
DABOUSSI: Thank you.
BURNETT: And get some rest. You deserve it. Real, uninterrupted rest.
SAPIR: Thank you.
BURNETT: Well, one of the big questions out there is -- is what the FBI knew and when they knew it. And I want to bring Colonel Leighton in to discuss this. I also want to bring in Seth Jones, a terror expert and author of a book on al Qaeda on hunting al Qaeda.
So, thanks so much to both of you.
Colonel Leighton, what is your take on that? The FBI has said, look, yes we did question the older brother, Tamerlan, suspect number one who was killed last night, we questioned him two years ago at the request of a foreign government who thought that he had links to extremism and determined at the time that there was nothing derogatory, their word, about him and so therefore they moved on.
When you hear that and you think about what happened now, we've also of course reported that that young man went to Russia, spent six months there, came back after that time and was -- was spending more time on extremist web sites, are you concerned? Is this something that we should have picked up before or not?
COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON, U.S. AIR FORCE (RET.): I do think it is something, Erin, that we should have picked up before because it's always a missed opportunity when you get something like this, you have an opportunity to question somebody of this type, like Tamerlan, and you don't follow up on it.
Now, it is possible that he didn't have these ideological views or at least they weren't as fully developed at the thyme he was questioned. And if that's the case, then you're not going to find anything. But that -- that is the big question, you know, why wasn't it picked up by the FBI? And perhaps they didn't take the foreign government's request as seriously as they should have, but that's something we'll have to figure out and find out from further investigations.
BURNETT: And Seth, what's your understanding -- I know you've been looking into what happened in between the time the FBI first questioned Tamerlan and now. And there was, at least according to your understanding, a real shift in his interests or that he expressed in jihadist-type activity?
SETH JONES, AUTHOR: Yeah. He certainly started listening to a range of radical preachers including Shaikh Fais Muhammad, an Australian of Lebanese descent, who preaches Salafism.
So increasingly when he was on internet sites, we know that he was monitoring some of these individuals who were supporting the use of violence overseas for jihad.
So, this is stuff that I think if his web sites were monitored should have caused some concern.
And of course at this point we don't know what the motivation was to this. And we can only hope that we're going to get more information from his younger brother who appears to have been motivated by, inspired by, acting at the behest of his brother.
But Seth, this issue of the FBI, I mean, when you look at how many people that they're questioning and watching, is it impossible to expect them to identify a person who's actually going do this?
JONES: It's very difficult. The FBI has arrested a lot of people over the last several years that have links to groups like al Shabbab, al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, and a number of other organizations, Lashkar e-Taiba.
I mean, this does some similarities with the London bombings where Muhammad Sadikikhan had been identified by British intelligence beforehand. They had not gone back and rescrubbed data over the last year or two before the London attacks.
So when the attacks occurred, they went back and looked and they had actually him on the radar screen. They just hadn't continued to look at him as a potential suspect.
I wonder whether that was the case here, because clearly they -- they had looked at him at one point, they may just not have looked at him again.
BURNETT: And Colonel Leighton, a final word to you. What is your belief on how this has changed the game? Has this changed the game now that something like this has happened?
LEIGHTON: Well, I think it has awakened us, Erin, to the need to be ever vigilant. And we've preached this since 9/11, obviously, but now it has gotten home. It's -- you know, outside the Washington, New York area, it's another major city. It's another major event. But it really shows that we have to be very vigilant with people that have basically grown up in this country, at least part of the time. But there is always that question, what is the guy next door going do, and how do we understand what that person is doing?
These people acted very normally in many respects, and that really make it very difficult because they're hiding in plain sight. And that's difficult for anybody let alone a private citizen to actually figure out what people really are thinking in this case.
BURNETT: And Seth I know I'm asking you to speculate here, but I am curious as to your view on how it came together. Suspect number two in the hospital tonight came to this country when he was a few days or I believe days or weeks shy of his 9th birthday. But suspect number one who was killed last night, his older brother, seven years older, came when he was 20 years old.
So when you -- the president of the United States talks about how they were educated here and lived here, which they did. But one of them grew up here, and one of them didn't. And is that significant?
JONES: Not necessarily. I mean, it is possible that either or -- actually neither of them had gone overseas at one point even while they were here for training. I mean, we saw that with Faisal Shahzad and Najibullah Zazi, both went overseas for training while they were living in the United States.
So, when they came here is less the issue than did they go back at some point, did they keep in contact with anybody in any other locations.
BURNETT: All right.
Seth Jones and Colonel Cedric Leighton, we very much appreciate you taking the time to be with us tonight as we're just starting to ask some of these questions that are going to become so crucial and important in the coming hours, days, weeks, and month as this continues, this case continues.
I want to share with you a statement that we just have from the family of Martin Richard, the 8-year-old boy who passed away earlier this week. I want to read it to you in its entirety. And we'll take a break, and I'm going to do that. We're going to take a brief break. I'll come back with that in a moment.
BURNETT: And we are back. I wanted to share the statement from the family of Martin Richard, the youngest victim this week, the 8-year-old little boy who lost his life on Monday. His mother and his sister were in the hospital, his sister had lost a leg, and she wanted to be a dancer. A family hit by unspeakable tragedy.
They have put out a statement in response to tonight's events, thanking law enforcement agencies. And I wanted to read it in full.
"It worked. And tonight our community is once again safe from these two men. None of this will bring our beloved Martin back or reverse the injuries these men inflicted on our family and nearly 200 others. We continue to pray for healing and for comfort on the long road that lies ahead for every victim and their loved ones.
Tonight, our family applauds the entire law enforcement community for a job well done and trust that our justice system will now do its job."
A statement that is incredible to hear from a family that has suffered through so much and that is suffering through so much and that always will be suffering through so much. But a statement there at the end that we all can applaud which is that the American just system will now do its part.
Thank you very much for watching our live coverage from Watertown, Massachusetts. Our live coverage from Boston continues with "Piers Morgan Live" after this break.