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Jodi`s Trial Coverage
Aired April 23, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Thank you, Nancy.
And good evening, everyone.
My co-host, psychologist Michelle Ward, host of "Stalked" on Discovery ID.
Now, tonight, we have some never-before-seen video of Travis, and it is really interesting. We will dig into it deep.
And this scalping seats to the trial. Selling seats. Someone who wanted to see the trial paid a courtroom observer today. I think we`re going to speak to her. We`ll tell you how much was offered. It`s getting ridiculous.
But first up, one of Travis` friends was on the stand today. He might look familiar to you from this program. Take a look.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Spell your last name for me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Raise your right hand.
WITNESS: The first time I saw Jodi, I got a really, really creepy vibe her. I said, you got to stay away from her. You know, she`s bad news.
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: Did you have a chance to observe the interaction between the defendant and Mr. Alexander?
MARTINEZ: And were they affectionate with each other, yes or no?
MARTINEZ: Did you see that on more than one occasion or not?
MARTINEZ: How often would you see they were affectionate?
WITNESS: Just about every time they were together.
MARTINEZ: Who is this individual to the upper left hand corner that seems to be doing most of the talking?
WITNESS: Travis Alexander.
MARTINEZ: And there appears to be something blondish or white on his lap. Who is that?
WITNESS: Jodi Arias.
MARTINEZ: In this video, what does the defendant do? Do you know whether or not she keeps her head down there or not?
WITNESS: No. Eventually, she looks like she gets bored and she lifts his arm off of her and sits up.
MARTINEZ: Let`s take a lock at exhibit 633. She`s wearing what? What is this?
WITNESS: It`s a robe from the Hyatt.
MARTINEZ: Is that where you were staying?
MARTINEZ: And who is this individual here?
WITNESS: Travis Alexander.
KIRK NURMI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You said you saw Travis and Jodi as a couple for the first time in January of 2007, correct?
WITNESS: I didn`t say that.
NURMI: OK. You said you met her for the first time in 2007, right?
WITNESS: I didn`t say that either.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We had arguments or disagreements just like any normal couple.
MARTINEZ: Did he ever strike you or physically advance on you or inflict any physical violence on you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. Never.
MARTINEZ: Do you know whether or not he had a pet?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. He has a dog named "Napoleon".
MARTINEZ: And who has that dog now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have that dog.
NURMI: Have you read this e-mail prior to today?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I have not.
NURMI: There is comment from Mr. Alexander that he did something.
Joining Dr. Michelle Ward and myself, attorney and Sirius XM Radio host, Jenny Hutt, attorney Mark Eiglarsh from speaktomark.com, and prosecutor Loni Coombs, author of "You`re Perfect and Other Lies Parents Tell."
Also, "In Session" correspondent Beth Karas. She`s been covering the trial.
Beth, tell us about the ex on the stand today.
BETH KARAS, IN SESSION CORRESPONDENT: Deanna Reed was a great witness. She met Travis Alexander in 1998. They became good friends. Within a couple years, they were boyfriend and girlfriend. But she went on a mission to Costa Rica. They`re both members of LDS.
And she was gone for a year and a half between 2000 and 2001. And he actually broke up with her. He wanted to date other people.
So she came back. And they weren`t dating any more, but by 2002, they did resume their relationship. And they were together for three more years. And then she wanted to get married, and he wasn`t ready. So they broke up again.
And they had met in California, Riverside, California. But they had both moved here because her job relocated her here. And that`s how Travis Alexander got to Mesa. He bought a home here, following her.
KARAS: And so, they stayed friends, and she stayed friends with him right up until she left this area, back to California, in May 2008. He was killed just a few weeks later. So she was friends with him throughout. And she described a very different Travis Alexander from the person the defense is portraying.
He was very kind and gentle with her. They did have a sexual relationship with her, though, but they repented and told their bishop about it, and never did it again. But they had a sexual relationship for a year.
PINSKY: And she never sort of reveal that he wasn`t a virgin and let people continue to joke with him about having been a virgin and that sort of stood, and no violence from him toward her, correct?
KARAS: No, not at all. He was always a gentleman with her. They had fights, but he never called her names. Nothing.
Oh, and the defense had this whole litany of questions about all these things reminding us of the things that Travis Alexander said to Jodi Arias. You`re a whore, a slut, a three-hole wonder. And, I mean, the fantasy of tying her to a tree and what he wanted to her and did he ever say those thing to you? The defense attorney, Mr. Nurmi was asking to her and she said, no, no. And some of the things were offensive, I imagine to Deanna Reed, because her face certainly portrayed that/
PINSKY: Thank you, Beth. Appreciate that report.
Michelle, this is what we`ve been saying all along, is that alchemy of the two of them, Jodi and Travis, that created this combustible relationship. It wasn`t that he was predisposed to being that way.
WARD: Right. You really get to see that in this situation. He was kind of wholesome if you look at the nature of the relationship. And she didn`t paint a perfect picture of them, said they had fights, said that they had sex. But it seemed like a reasonable relationship.
PINSKY: I think she said, in fact, we were just humans.
Jenny, you wanted to weigh in about this ex-girlfriend`s testimony.
JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: Well, I happen to agree with everything you said. They`re just human. And once again, the sex thing comes into play. It`s as if the defense is painting this picture of Travis, the fact that he had that sort of crazy sex with Jodi was almost -- gave her the right to kill him in a way. And, look, different relationships, we have different sex depending on who we`re with.
Again, I don`t think that the differences between the two relationships make it like he was sinister with Jodi. That`s just -- some people talk dirty. He did not talk dirty with Deanna. I thought Deanna was a great witness. She was just normal. They just a great relationship.
And, by the way, I think he and Jodi just had a little bit more dirty, naughty, crazy-type relationship.
WARD: I think personally the reason why the defense went down that road is to have another opportunity to show what Travis said to Jodi. And I think that their goal was to get to the jury again. I`m sure they had multiple goals but they certainly got to read those texts to the jury.
PINSKY: Loni, you agree with that?
LONI COOMBS, AUTHOR: Absolutely. I think they misread the jury, because I think the jury is so sick and tired of hearing those words over and over again. And with this witness in particular. When you watched her face, she`s so normal, so rational and mature.
And this was a really nice relationship that they had. And when you see how she reacted to every one of those phrases, it was so awkward and it turned my stomach, honestly when he was digging into the sexual details of her relationship with Travis. It was so misplaced. I think anything the defense thought they were going to get out of that, they didn`t at all.
PINSKY: Loni, you`re -- if you don`t mind me, you`re a Mormon also.
PINSKY: Do you think that the fact that they talked to the bishop and sort of made their peace with it, was sufficient, this is like the way it`s handled in that community?
COOMBS: That`s exactly. It`s a repentance process and you go and talk to the bishop, you know? And it kind of show that look, this isn`t a big horrible thing that Travis couldn`t get over. It`s a normal part of life. And there is a repentance process that you go through in the church and move on.
And while we look at the pictures from the Facebook of Travis` ex- girlfriend, testified on court today, I`m going to play that while we talk to Jenny. You have something you`re dying to say here.
HUTT: I just have to say this. Everyone`s talk about the words that were used, the terrible words that Travis supposedly said to Jodi, or heard on the sex tape.
Frankly, in consenting relationships between adults, sometimes words like that are employed. And they`re OK. They might sound weird to us because we`re not in those relationships. But plenty of nice girls like to talk dirty and be talked dirty too.
PINSKY: Again, it`s always revealing on this show. We learn about people. Anyway, Mark --
COOMBS: I have to say, as the other female on here, I agree with Jenny. You know, people kept calling Travis a sexual pervert? I was like, really?
PINSKY: OK, Mark is the other male on the panel. I`m going to go to you. But I`m going to tell you, tomorrow, we`re going to bring in a group of men and talk about whether men believe what those (INAUDBILE) something off the track a little bit.
Mark, go ahead. What are your thoughts?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Drew, I don`t want to talk. I want Loni and Jenny keep talking about their sex lives, very hot tonight.
EIGLARSH: I`m enjoying this.
Let`s talk about the cross examination for a moment, if we could shift for one second.
PINSKY: Yes, sir.
EIGLARSH: You know, in Twitterville, Nurmi`s taking a beating. I mean, everybody thought it was grossly inappropriate. I, too, personally had a problem with what he did.
I think on paper, it was a good theory. Let`s go ahead and try to boost our defense by using those questions with this witness, but this witness seemed so pure and so mature and so over this that it came across as offensive. So I will, however, defend his right to zealously defend her, but what he did with this witness is problematic.
One other thing, his pace, I`m not saying he`s slow, but I swear to you, I think between one of his questions, I took a full nap.
PINSKY: Funny, I read a book.
EIGLARSH: I think I did.
PINSKY: All right, guys, next up, we`ve got new video of Travis. This is really interesting. No one wants to miss this. This is a brand new, never-before-seen video. There`s a little piece of it. I`ll tell you what happened and why he`s there. And what had just happened and why he`s given this video. It might change your opinion of him. We`ll dig into it.
And later, the behavior bureau is going to tackle this. Who is responsible for the Jodi/Travis break up? How did that go down and why were they attracted to each other? We`re going to get into it, but we`re back after this.
JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: You know, I wasn`t really any initial magnetic attraction. At the time I shook his hand, he said, "Hi, I`m Travis." I said, "Hi, I`m Jodi." But he called me the next day. He`s a good conversationalist. He just got me engaged in a conversation constantly and he wanted to know about me. And people like to talk about themselves. So, you know, it was one thing led into another.
TRAVIS ALEXANDER, VICTIM: We got into this quicker that I thought we would.
ARIAS: Yes. I wonder how that happened.
ALEXANDER: You are right though. In the bath, that`s hot.
ARIAS: Oh, when we took a bath together?
ARIAS: Traveling with Travis was kind of like traveling with your own personal comedian or serenader or philosopher.
ALEXANDER: You`re meeting God right now. Are you sufficiently prepared? You know? They say that your life flashes before your eyes.
REPORTER: Were you in love with Travis?
ARIAS: I think that being in love and loving someone are two different things. And there was a point in time where we were in love, but it was short-lived.
REPORTER: But you guys managed to keep dating.
ARIAS: We didn`t date per se, we just hung out. We had an enthusiasm for life that, you know, we always wanted to see what was around the next corner.
PINSKY: And we`re back with my co-host, psychologist Michelle Ward. We`re about to look at some never before seen video of Travis. He is being interviewed by a friend -- get this -- after being involved in a snow mobile accident, a wreck. He probably rolls this thing. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened, dude?
ALEXANDER: So I`m driving, yes. And I`m hauling up this hill and crap. And I said to myself, "Self, you`re a man. You can go up this crap, too."
I`m going like 80, 90 miles an hour, one leg up like that. And hit this little ridge, just rolled like four times, then it rolled down the hill and so I grabbed it with one hand, pulled it back up, landed flat on the tracks, but now it`s flooded and won`t start.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s incredible, dude.
ALEXANDER: That`s how I roll. That`s how I do crap.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That`s how I roll.
Joining me now, Travis` good friend Clancy Talbot.
Now, Clancy, you were actually there when this was shot. I want you to tell me what you think when you see this video. And also tell us about the fund that you have for Travis Alexander`s family.
CLANCY TALBOT, TRAVIS ALEXANDER`S FRIEND: Yes, this fun was set up by some good friends, Chris Hughes and Taylor Cyril (ph). And it`s just to support the family while they`re out there, travisalexanderfund.com.
The family didn`t ask to have this fund set up. They didn`t ask to have it set up, but they`re very, very appreciative. So, just want to make sure that people are aware of that. There`s a lot of request on how they can help the family out. So, I just want to make sure that they know it`s travisalexanderfund.com, so that they can go there and donate, and that would be greatly appreciated by us.
PINSKY: Thank you for that. Now looking at this video in retrospect, what kind of feelings do you have?
TALBOT: It makes me laugh. And I can hear myself laughing in the background of the film and makes me sad. But that, that film does describe Travis to a T, I mean, he just -- and it makes me also think of how Jodi`s saying that Travis got so upset because she dropped his new camera.
And Travis just flipped his snowmobile and that`s how Travis handled everything, you know. It was just -- he made light of everything. And he was such a light.
I mean, he, he was funny. He was just -- he was an amazing person. And it`s mixed feelings, because I laugh because that`s Travis and his true self. And I am sad because he`s gone.
PINSKY: Clancy, I want to make that point again, because you`re making really kind of a legal point here. You`re saying that Jodi accuses him of having a very short fuse and when she drops a camera he literally attacks her. And here we are looking at him after he has been in a life threatening situation, where he rolled a snowmobile, he should be angry and upset, and he`s very even.
And you`re saying that`s how he dealt with everything.
TALBOT: Yes. Exactly. Exactly.
PINSKY: Anybody have any questions for Clancy? Michelle, you have a thing for her?
WARD: Well, I`m just curious. Was there any situation in which Travis did lose his temper, I mean ever?
TALBOT: I`ve seen Travis upset, and it was actually on a trip when Jodi just kept calling and calling and texting and texting, and he was frustrated and irritated. And, you know, the way he dealt with it was through humor. I mean, he just -- everything, you know, with Travis, he would make a joke. He would break out in song.
He would -- that`s just how I handled things when he did lose his temper. I mean, it wasn`t that he was, you know, violent or abusive in any way. He would just make light of it and laugh. That was Travis.
PINSKY: Jenny, for Clancy?
HUTT: Yes. So the defense tries to paint this picture of how awful his upbringing was and so like his self-esteem would be shattered. But he seems like a guy who`s got great self-esteem like he`s completely secure. Was he that secure like he rates (ph)?
TALBOT: Oh, yes. And Travis` -- one of his big goals in life was to make him shelf a better person. He did a lot of personal development. He read books.
I mean, that was what he did with his life was improving himself. And he just had this magnetic personality where you just wanted to be around him and he`d light up a room, and he was amazing that way and always wanted to work on himself. So, that was the true Travis. That video explains him completely to a T.
PINSKY: Mark, how about you?
EIGLARSH: Clancy, you know, I get the sense that one person who realized what his wonderful qualities were other than myself -- I`ve grown to really love this guy -- was Jodi himself. And I think part of the reason she snapped is because she grew to love him so much and when he said no, you are not part of my future, then she snapped.
What are your thoughts?
TALBOT: Absolutely. Absolutely. That`s exactly what I think happened. She just was not going to have the fact that she was not going to be his wife. She just was not going to have it. And if she couldn`t have him nobody else could.
And I think she ended things exactly the way she wanted to. She was the last person, and, you know, exactly. I think you hit it right on.
PINSKY: Jenny, you want to follow up with something?
HUTT: Yes, every time I see a video of him, I just feel so sad because he seems like such an appealing guy. Clancy, were the girls always after him? Was there always a girl in your group with a crush on him?
TALBOT: I think Travis was looking for a wife, so they all were, you know, trying to put themselves out there for that, because he was very well-respected and everyone loved him. But, you know, he, he had some high standards too.
So how Jodi fit into that picture, I`m still not really sure.
PINSKY: It`s hard to say. But I think is what I would like, and Michelle and I maybe can step in here. The kind of history he had growing up made him vulnerable to this kind of relationship.
We`re going to talk in the next segment that people with the kind of trauma that he had and with the personality structure I probably had, tend to be very attracted to the borderlines and the borderlines to them. It`s almost like, in spite of themselves, they get sucked into those relationships.
Would you agree with that, Michelle?
WARD: Absolutely. What you have here is the situation with somebody who has borderline personality disorder, which really just means they have really volatile interrelationships, they tend to idolize their boyfriend or girlfriend, and then demonize them, villainize them.
WARD: So a person like Jodi is looking for someone to idolize.
PINSKY: She found him.
WARD: She found him.
WARD: He is very self confident.
PINSKY: He wants to be -- he would like to --
WARD: He wants a fan club.
PINSKY: Who doesn`t, right? Yes.
WARD: You can tell the way he`s a public speaker. He tries to bring in people to make them better.
WARD: It`s a dangerous combination. We see this with borderlines hooking up sometimes with people with these overconfident personalities.
WARD: I mean, it doesn`t make them not a wonderful person.
PINSKY: And what we see, what we`re going to say, is that they glue together. In fact, in treatment centers, just going to sound peculiar to people, but we see somebody with a personality style that say Jodi has and someone that Travis has, we actually have to keep them separated. We have to be very, very cautious because they go together and to their detriment. And so you really have to educate them about why that could be such a volatile combination.
Thank you, guys.
Clancy, thank you so much for sharing that video with us. We are deeply appreciative.
Next up, more of this video in fact. Does it explain -- we will get into explaining why these two were so attracted and why they couldn`t get out once they were in.
And later, one of my jurors were offered big money for -- well, get this -- for a seat in court today. Did she take it? Who offered to pay for it?
Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEXANDER: And this little ridge, did a barrel roll like top gun, dude, like maverick style. Thing fell, landed on me. Didn`t break a thing, because I`m unbreakable like Bruce Willis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was Travis Alexander after a snowmobile accident as we just heard from his friend Clancy, for here, gave an example of how ridiculous Jodi is with her claims that I would be angry about dropping a camera would result in him having some sort of violent flare.
Well, here we are with him having near-death experience rolling a snowmobile at 80 miles, he`s like, he`s cool.
PINSKY: All right. Of course, this is Michelle Ward. She`s with me.
Also joining us, Mark Eiglarsh and Jenny Hutt, as well as psychologist Cheryl Arutt.
So, Cheryl, you heard Jenny -- Michelle and I were talking about the attraction between certain personalities. I think this is going to be difficult to get it across to the viewers. I`m going to see if we can get across to Mark and Jenny, in fact.
Jenny, it seems like this is first time you`ve been exposed though to that kind of thing.
Cheryl, you take it.
CHERYL ARUTT, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, the attraction between Travis, I think, and Jodi, was that Travis was traveling in a pretty conservative kind of environment and Jodi was kind of saying hey, you want to play? He`s certainly had a streak of wanting to get wild. She said, come over here and play with me.
PINSKY: But that`s her strategy. But the fact that -- and this is what I want to tell viewers is that I ran a drug treatment center for a couple decades. And whenever somebody came in with a borderline personality disorder -- which is very common, it`s a common condition -- we would have to keep her away from certain males because they would find each other like glue, it`s like magnets.
And the borderlines to these males -- to both of their detriment, they would both get into things, where they ended up using together and having sex together, not going to treatment with that intention at all. But it`s a terrible alchemy, borderlines with certain other personalities.
WARD: Yes. That`s absolutely. And when it falls apart it`s because these people with the borderline personality disorders, we talked about the interpersonal relationship, this fear of being abandoned.
PINSKY: Right. So, somebody`s threaten abandonment, sometimes it`s as simple as leaving the room.
PINSKY: Let`s say Travis with Jodi, we`re looking at a picture of Travis and Jodi. Jodi is curled up inside his lap. She`s got to be fused inside his body to feel OK.
Let`s say Travis got up and went to the bathroom, what could happen in her mind?
WARD: She reads into it. He`s sick of me. He doesn`t want to be with me. She fears abandon. And then she goes from idolizing him to demonizing him.
PINSKY: Cheryl, again, Jenny, I`m going to go to you in a second. I know you`re sitting there with that incredulous look on your face.
HUTT: Because -- yes.
PINSKY: Hold on.
So, Cheryl, what they do is then they go, I hate him. He`s awful. Why did I ever love this guy? I want to destroy him.
They can actually go to that extent, can`t they?
ARUTT: They can. They can flip 180 degrees in a second, because if they feel abandon or left or treated badly, the feeling is I am bad. There`s no core there. There`s no self there.
They get a feeling of self by attaching to somebody who seems to have a really big, impressive selves.
PINSKY: Somebody they`re going to like.
So, Jenny, there you go. Could you understand what we`re talking about? Does it make sense?
PINSKY: It`s not a defense. It`s just a way of understanding this two, how they ended up together.
HUTT: Yes, I totally -- but I think they ended up together for several reasons. One of which is Travis -- he had some mad swagger going on. I mean, we can see it in the video. He`s like, got it. And he feels it.
And then we have Jodi. And she`s sexy, and she`s working him. And he doesn`t really get that he`s the borderline at the start. It`s caveat (INAUDIBLE). It`s fire beware. He doesn`t know.
HUTT: And it ends up being that she is who she is.
PINSKY: Yes, but listen, it`s not like, Jenny, people come to my treatment centers. They don`t come in with these placards on them with the name of their personality disorders on them. It`s how -- it`s how people fit together. Their pathologies go together.
Mark, you want to say something?
EIGLARSH: Yes. It`s all very deep. Jen brings it back home.
I`m thinking back to my 20s and especially with this guy who is inexperienced with the ways of love. And here she was willing to give every portion of her body to him. It really is very simple and, quite frankly, it`s very scary, because the wrong gal can lead someone down this path.
PINSKY: Well, first of all, it`s hard for me to imagine that Mark was ever unskilled in the ways of love. It`s hard for me to imagine. I`m trying to think back to that time (INAUDIBLE).
HUTT: I want details, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: But your point is well taken. She used sex as the manipulative element that got him sucked into her web. And that`s what we`ve been saying all along.
PINSKY: We`re trying to look at this thing from different angles. Listen, we`ve established what a great guy Travis was. Like each of us, he had certain personality elements. We know he went through lots of trauma and stuff that she could then come and take advantage of.
And yes, sex was one of those things.
Cheryl, you want to ring in on this?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I just think that she got Travis to stop thinking with, you know, the upper part of his body. And I think that was a very powerful technique.
PINSKY: We`re about to hear one of our Cherylisms as well.
ARUTT: That one was implied.
PINSKY: I wonder -- do we have any calls coming in from viewers if they`d like to ring in? And we`ll get one in just a second. They can ask -- Michelle, go ahead.
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: Drew, I wanted to add one thing.
EIGLARSH: Can I add one thing?
EIGLARSH: You know, we`re talking about Travis, and I think it`s great because it`s a tribute to him to some extent, but nowhere in the jury instructions will there be anything about the victim`s character, you understand? It doesn`t matter what his character was, although, I think his character was wonderful. It`s all about, did she kill him and was she legally justified in doing so which she was not.
EIGLARSH: But we can continue talk about his character, but I think - -
PINSKY: -- people when we use a word like character, it really sounds like we`re be being pejorative. I`m not talking about that. I`m talking about how people get attracted to one another. Yes. And Michelle, you want to --
MICHELLE WARD, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: I disagree with Mark. I think it does matter, not in jury instructions. And you`re looking at it very legally, and I think that`s important, but jurors are people. And they -- the strategy works to bring down the victim. I know it`s horrible, but the reason they do it is because it works. And the more what you talk about in the case is exactly what the jurors are going to talk about in the deliberation room. I think that`s the strategy.
PINSKY: And listen, we are all clear what Jodi is all about and how she lies, she lies, she lies. She killed somebody. We are, in no way -- we`re just chewing on some of this material to help understand it a little better. I think you`re right, Mark. The fact is that the things we talk about have no bearing on the legal aspects of this case. So, I appreciate you saying that.
In fact, next, we`re going to look at how Jodi turned on the waterworks today. I`m going to tell you, Michelle is going to tell you what we think those tears were all about. My jurors also have something to say about that. They observed these tears very close at hand, and they had some very strong responses to it.
And later, scalping seats in the courtroom. Who paid money to see Jodi close up? My jurors have that scoop.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did there come a time when you met somebody by the name of Jodi Arias?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Sitting right there, wearing a blue shirt, glasses. First time I met her was in San Bernardino, California at a Hilton hotel.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did they continue to be affectionate towards each other such that you could see or the public could see?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you know an individual by the name of Travis Alexander?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I did. If he did not want to get married, then I was going to need to move on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At any time, did he ever physically touch you in anyway inappropriately, for example, striking you or anything?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you and Mr. Alexander have a sexual relationship?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, we did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Time for our trial report card. Back with my co-host, Michelle Ward. Jodi Arias was face-to-face with several witnesses today, including whom we just saw there an ex-witness -- an ex-girlfriend of Travis Alexander. So, we`re going to grade how she handled all of this. Her so called performance in the courtroom today, how much of it was a performance, Michelle? How much of it was actually genuine emotion?
Something I`m not sure she`s capable of. Mark Eiglarsh, Jenny Hutt, Loni Coombs, and Katie Wick who was in court today, you all need to hold your grades until the end. I`m going to go to Mark first. What did you make of the tears?
EIGLARSH: Well, I mean, she`ll never convince me that any of that is genuine, but I analyze this as a trial lawyer thinking to myself I have clients, sometimes, who fall asleep in court, who can`t pay attention to the evidence. So, I`m thinking to myself, I looked over and she was my client, God forbid, would I be OK with her affect?
And the answer is, yes, I would be pleased that at least water is running down from her face at the appropriate times and that she`s looking like she`s really into this. And if there`s maybe one juror addicted to gullible who might be buying this, then I`m in good shape.
JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: Yes. I don`t know that she`s crying because she`s remorseful, Dr. Drew. Rather, I think she might be crying because she`s nostalgic. She doesn`t like that she`s in jail and probably going to stay there or maybe end up being put to death. I think it`s the tears -- I`m not sure what they`re for.
Whether it`s displaced emotion over something else or really about Travis. But I agree with Mark, that looking at her, there might be somebody who feels a little bit of compassion. Not me.
PINSKY: Jenny, I think you`re right. Not about Travis. I think, Michelle, you agree with it as well. That`s a very good estimation. Loni, what do you say?
LONI COOMBS, AUTHOR, "YOU`RE PERFECT": I`ll tell you, the keyword here is performance. And this is why I call her the Daniel Day-Lewis of defendants. She is always performing. And what she`s doing with these tears is she is connecting to that jury. She is bringing the attention back to herself and telling them, look at me, I`m communicating with you. I`m connecting with you. And you know, we even have the cameraman now.
They`re doing split screens. So, whatever the witness is doing, we get to watch Jodi`s every response, whether it`s a tear, whether it`s a smug smile, whether it`s -- whatever it is, we want to see her response to everything. She is playing that courtroom and playing those jurors and staying connected with them, whether she`s on the witness stand or sitting over there at counsel table.
PINSKY: And Michelle, you would say that`s it exactly. She`s acting as if, right?
WARD: Exactly. I agree with all of you. I mean, I think that`s exactly that`s a performance, but at least now, she`s learned when she`s supposed to cry and when she`s not supposed to smile.
WARD: But here`s the thing, you can kind of like read through it. When the ex-girlfriend was on the stand, I felt like I could read Jodi`s mind and thinking, well, that`s because he didn`t really love you, he really loved me.
COOMBS: Yes. Did you see the smug smile she got --
PINSKY: Wow, you guys, that`s crazy. That`s really naughty (ph).
WARD: And I thought Shy was angry.
PINSKY: Well, yes. She`s angry a lot of the time. She shows contempt often. That`s a feeling we do get from her.
COOMBS: Yes, especially that it`s young woman that she feels like she can`t control.
PINSKY: Yes. All right. Katie, you were sitting right there. Are we on to something here?
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": I think so, but let me say this, that video, I think, was really great for the state. It really humanized Travis. It showed what Jodi said isn`t happening which -- when they were dating, they were together. But I want to say this, the whole waterworks and all of that, Dr. Drew, somebody said that it was playing the jury. She absolutely is playing the jury.
Those tears, if there are any, which I haven`t been able to really see if there are any tears, she`s playing that jury. I think it`s more she`s looking at that video thinking, darn, I wish there were a hair salon in prison because I sure miss being a blonde.
WICK: I don`t think that --
WICK: I don`t think that for Travis.
EIGLARSH: Katie is not buying it.
HUTT: I think she got her hair done. I think she got her hair dark in prison.
PINSKY: Around the horn starting with Mark. Mark, your grade?
EIGLARSH: Yes. I liked what Loni said. She`s communicating with the jury. What she she`s saying, if you find me guilty and you don`t buy the foggy fog, you`re not going to kill me because, look, I have tears. I`m giving her a B.
PINSKY: All right. And Jenny, your grade.
HUTT: Yes. I just gave her a C, because again, I think maybe there`s one that`s going to buy it, but I still don`t like her.
PINSKY: Loni, your grade?
COOMBS: I don`t think anybody plays Jodi Arias better than Jodi arias. I give her an A.
PINSKY: I think she`s on to something to too. Katie, your grade.
WICK: Wow! OK. I gave her -- because I saw two things today. I saw, when the jury was walking in, she was talking. I thought that was very disrespectful to the jury. I gave her a C- because she didn`t draw as much in court today and didn`t go through as many lottery pencils. So, I say C-.
PINSKY: Interesting. Michelle, what do you say?
WARD: Well, I`m going to give you a very clinical reason, she made my mom so mad today that my mother called me and told me I couldn`t give her a good grade.
WARD: I give her a D.
PINSKY: All right. There we go. A, B, C, C-, and a D brings Jodi`s GPA to a 2.34. She`s got some work to do. I wonder if that`s equivalent with a death sentence. Thank you, panel.
Next up, Jodi guilt tripped by Travis? That`s what she told police. Behavior bureau will have something to say about that after this.
And later, what`s a seat worth at this trial?
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up at the top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," our boiled accusation. Jodi ditched the knife. We know she ditched the gun. But did she ditch the knife.
We`ve got 12 jurors in studio who will answer that question with a verdict at the end of the program as well as you, our online jury at home, will determine whether or not Jodi Arias is guilty or not guilty of ditching the knife. That`s "HLN After Dark" coming up top of the hour.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Most people would say no. Did you kill Travis?
JODI ARIAS, ACCUSED OF KILLING HER EX-BOYFRIEND: Well, I didn`t, and I didn`t have anything to do with it. Now, do I feel responsible? I`ve been carrying around guilt since I heard about it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why do you feel responsible? If you felt responsible, it means you know something else, because your actions led to his death.
ARIAS: Because he always guilted me. He`s always guilted me. One of the last times we spoke, he was guilting me about not coming to see him. And part of my heart still wanted to go see him and another part just wants to move on. And, there is a tinge of guilt, you know? And he would text me and he would say, hey, do you want to come over and make out, da, da, da. I didn`t respond one night. And I just stayed strong and I didn`t respond, and then, he called and called and called.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my behavior bureau and my co-host, Michelle Ward. Joining the two of us, Jenny Hutt, psychologist, Cheryl Arutt, and therapist, Tiffanie Davis Henry. Guys, listen, I had not seen that video until just now and I just had a very sort of strong reaction to it. It seems to me right in there we saw the defense that we saw in the courtroom, which is he made me.
He made me guilty. Whatever`s happening to me is because he made me that way. I don`t really feel guilty, but if he hadn`t guilted me, I wouldn`t feel guilty. Very confusing stuff. Cheryl, take me away with that.
ARUTT: Well, Dr. Drew, it`s all Travis` fault.
PINSKY: Right. All his fault.
ARUTT: If you ask Jodi, it`s all his fault. And this is a classic defense mechanism called projection. It`s like you have your own movie, and you are projecting it onto the other person and taking all of your feelings and putting them on the other person so it`s not I`m mad at you, it`s you`re mad at me. You`re making me do things. It`s your fault, and it`s all put on the other person and that`s something that I think she did a lie.
PINSKY: And borderlines do a lot of that. It`s called projective identification is where they take the bad feelings from themselves and put them on another person, don`t they, Michelle?
WARD: Well, I have two reactions to it. One was the borderline reaction, which is you made me do this to you, you horrible person.
PINSKY: Yes. You had it coming.
PINSKY: That`s her basic note (ph) is you had it coming.
WARD: And then, my other reaction is the psychopath which is, oh, I need to learn where I`m supposed to feel guilty, and I think it goes here.
PINSKY: Wow! Tiffanie, what say you?
PINSKY: Tiffanie, go ahead.
TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, PH.D., THERAPIST: She definitely is not moving on from this relationship. It`s a relationship where Travis has made it very clear or maybe he hasn`t made it too clear. For me, it feels as though Jodi is just kind of hovering, hanging around, and not really getting the message that Travis doesn`t want to be with her. When you try to cut off a relationship, you don`t call, you don`t text, you don`t sex, you don`t do video chats.
For someone with borderline personality disorder at least the features, you have to set severe boundaries with them and not give them any window in. And when he does that, when he does call, when he does text, when he says oh, yes, come on over, let`s have a little nooky, nooky time, it gives her too much of a window.
PINSKY: Well, that`s right.
HENRY: To say, OK, well, maybe he does like me, maybe I do have a way in, maybe there is a chance.
PINSKY: Yes. No, listen, that is exactly right. People do this very foolish thing, which they will have sexes with their exs, but you do that with a borderline, you`re going to end up in a very --
HENRY: You never getting rid of that.
PINSKY: -- very serious problem. Jenny, put this in lay term (ph) for me.
HUTT: OK. First of all, I think, once again, Jodi lies. I don`t believe that Travis was calling and calling and calling and she wasn`t answering. That phone rang, she was like hello.
HENRY: A lot of guys like the crazy girl. And I do believe that he was calling her because she`s probably --
HENRY: But he doesn`t want to be with her.
HENRY: And that`s what she didn`t understand.
PINSKY: Jenny, finish it up. I`ve got to get out.
HUTT: OK. Anyway, so what I was going to say is that this is so maddening and so hard to comprehend, because we`re normal. We wouldn`t do what she did.
PINSKY: That`s right and nor would we lie, lie, lie, lie. I feel like I`m talking about Casey Anthony again.
Next up, someone paid to see Jodi cry in court today, offered $200 to someone including one of my jurors for her seat. We`ll talk to her after this.
PINSKY: Time for Dr. Drew`s jurors. We are back with my co-host, psychologist, Michelle Ward. Joining us, Katie Wick and Somer Hogan. Somer, you were the one who was offered $200 for a seat in the gallery. Is that right? You were approached?
SOMER HOGAN, INSIDE ARIAS COURTROOM: I was approached, yes. I think I might have been the first person that was approached. I can kind of understand. It was a woman who came in from out of town. This was her one chance to get into the courtroom. And, there were a lot of people, Dr. Drew, waiting to get into the gallery today.
And so, it didn`t look like she was going to get in and I think she just got super desperate. I`m not saying I agree with it. I think, you know, giving the money to the family probably would have been a better use --
PINSKY: Jodi Arias -- court seat market. Now, Somer, last time you were in Arizona, you were on a family vacation. You went to the trial.
PINSKY: But this time, my understanding is, you just left your family behind and went on out there. Is that true?
HOGAN: I did. I did. I have lots of family helpers that are taking care of my three boys so that I can get a couple more days here in at trial. Yes.
PINSKY: Katie, tell me about the tears today. We talked a little bit about that in a previous block. But I kind of feel like in the courtroom which the nonsense she was doing today probably looked even more problematic. Somer, you can ring on in this, too, but Katie, you first.
WICK: It was really awkward. She always cries at the most awkward moments. Why would she cry over that video? It wasn`t because she misses Travis, because we know that she asked Detective Flores to see the autopsy photos. It doesn`t make her cry when he`s not alive, so I don`t understand what the deal was.
I just -- what I did notice today, though, as I mentioned previously in the prior segment, Dr. Drew, is that she didn`t -- she was paying a lot of attention to Deanna today, and I notice that with all of Travis Alexander`s ex-girlfriends that have taken the stand, from Mimi Hall to Lisa, now to Deanna, she`s always very, very attentive to them.
And I thought that was really something to watch today, and then when Melinda took the stand, she went back to her drawing. But she`s always attentive when the ex-girlfriends are on the stand that I just wonder what`s going through her mind or not -- probably better not to know.
PINSKY: Somer, your opinion.
HOGAN: Yes, I agree with Katie. I mean, it`s certainly phony. You know, we`re drawing the Kleenex out. We`re making a big scene out of wiping our face, notice me, jurors, I`m crying. It`s making me feel upset. One of the things that we were talking about was she was probably upset looking at herself, you know, with her dyed blonde hair and her make-up on.
She was so much cuter then and she was kind of longing to go back to those days, you know, where she could put on her makeup and her hair dye as we know she`s --
PINSKY: There we go.
WICK: Well, and also, gosh, if they could have only heard the audio to that video, Dr. Drew, what he was talking about the gun, what an effect that would have had on the jury potentially.
PINSKY: Oh, yes. I completely agree with you. OK. Listen, we`ll take a quick break. Last call is next. I actually have a call. I want to -- I think it`s going to be for you, guys, perhaps, it`s a grade. We`ll take that call after this.
PINSKY: Time for the last call. Our jurors are still with Dr. Ward and myself. We`re going to go right out to a caller. It is Billy in Florida. Billy, go ahead.
BILLY, FLORIDA: Hi, Dr. Drew, I`ll make this quick. Don`t you believe that somewhere in Jodi`s teenage, stunted mind, that that moment she`s seen herself on video with Travis, something clicked in her, and she seen everything she used to have, everything she lost, everything she`ll never have, and she realized for the first moment that she`s going to die.
And this is for real. It ain`t a coloring page. It ain`t a picture book. It`s for real, and that brought it back to her, for the first time, seeing him alive next to her.
PINSKY: It`s possible a normal person would feel like that. Katie, you agree with me on this. Michelle, I think you`d agree. A normal person sort of feel like that, but she thinks she`s smarter than the rest of us, doesn`t she?
WARD: And that`s what we, as viewers, get so caught up in is because we think of what we would think, and unfortunately, she just doesn`t have a normal brain.
PINSKY: Katie, 10 seconds.
WICK: I think she definitely knows that time`s ticking and I think her defense team knows it as well. And I think that`s why she`s looking at us more in the gallery now, because she`s looking at us thinking, wow, all these people get to go home and I get to go back to a cell. I think it`s - -
PINSKY: Great, guys. Thank you so much. Thank you for our callers. Thank you to Michelle Ward. Thank you to my panelists. I`ll see you all next time. "HLN After Dark" starts --