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Jodi Arias Murder Case

Aired April 29, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Jodi Arias` postcard from prison, with greetings for me.

Then, exclusive, Travis Alexander`s friend is here. Why did he fear for his children around Jodi?

Plus, we will reveal the juror who was sent packing. Who was he? Why was he dismissed? Should he have been?

And the medical examiner and our "CSI" guy battle it out -- two experts, two different opinions, one great debate.

Let`s get started.


PINSKY: Good evening.

My co-host this week, Jenny Hutt, attorney and Sirius XM Radio host.

And coming up, I have an exclusive with Travis Alexander`s best friend and some rarely seen pictures of Jodi Arias. An amazing interview. I can`t wait to speak to this gentleman.

But, first, a quick look to where this trial all began.


JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: This is not a case of whodunit. The person who dunnit, the person who committed this killing sits in court. And person that she dunnit to is an individual by the name of Travis Victor Alexander, a former boyfriend of hers, an individual that she was in love with. She rewarded that love for Travis Victor Alexander by sticking a knife in his chest.

JENNIFER WILLMOTT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Now, Travis and Jodi took many trips together during the time that they knew each other. They -- well, Jodi is a wonderful photographer. I mean, outside, looking in, it really appeared like they were involved in a very loving and healthy relationship. Behind the smiles in these photographs, there was a whole another reality, because in reality, Jodi was Travis` dirty little secret.


PINSKY: Jenny, that`s where we started this journey. Has your view changed from where these attorneys painted their picture to start with?

JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Yes, no. I really think that Jodi is just a horrible person, Dr. Drew. I think that this blaming the victim thing that the defense keeps trying to do again and again is just unfortunate and upsetting.

Jodi committed this crime. She murdered Travis. I`ve aid before, I`ll say it again, I think she was jealous and planned this because she was jealous and couldn`t have him forever. And it`s just disgusting and tragic.

PINSKY: And the interesting thing that we`ve been trying to slog through is what`s the difference between Jenny Hutt who gets jealous once in a while perhaps --

HUTT: Right.

PINSKY: Or anybody else out there versus Jodi Arias who kills the object of her desire.

Joining us to discuss: attorney Mark Eiglarsh from, our human lie detector, Janine Driver, author of "You Can`t Lie to Me," and attorney Mark Geragos, author of "Mistrial: How the Criminal Justice System Works and Sometimes Doesn`t".

Mark, that`s something you ought to explain to me someday because it seems like it doesn`t a lot of the time. I`m just saying.

MARK GERAGOS, ATTORNEY: For various reasons, Drew. For various reasons.

PINSKY: We`ll have to read your book to see.

Jodi`s friend Gayla Lynch was on our show in February. And when Gala first met Jodi, she thought Jodi was a lovely little virgin. Take a listen.


GAYLA LYNCH, JODI`S FRIEND (via telephone): She was so wholesome. And, you know, she didn`t wear makeup. She didn`t dress like a slut. I saw the pictures of the crime scene, and I think it was horrible. I`m just saying that the Jodi that I knew, I would have never imagined that she was capable of doing that.


PINSKY: And yet, that`s exactly what she had done. She`s not just capable of it. She did it. She`s admitted to that part of the story.

Now look closely at a postcard. It appears to be sent from Jodi to Gayla. It was postmarked February 28. And it says, "Dear Gayla, I heard about the nice comments you made on -- was it Dr. Drew? Thank you for speaking for me. You were very brave to go on that show. I hope they were nice to you."

Mark, I believe you were there with me on that day. Were you nice to her?

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: I was nice to her. But I pointed out the logic in what she was saying. She hadn`t seen Jodi in like, if I remember correctly, like more than a decade. I was like what relevance does this have? It was nice to hear from her, but it really didn`t shed any light on the person that she is today.

PINSKY: And, Mark Geragos, we haven`t had you participate in these panels much throughout this journey we`ve been on. I really appreciate you being here.

What is your -- do you have an overall take on what`s going down here? Because my thing about this case is that it`s built on lies and no evidence. Has the defense been able to build a case in spite of that?

GERAGOS: Well, yes, and I think the prosecutor -- my take on this, the prosecution has taken the defense bait and I think, frankly, overtried this case. And, obviously, we`ll see when the jurors come back. But ultimately, I don`t know, and specifically today, why the prosecution wanted to go play in the defense sandbox of whether or not this was a borderline personality disorder or anything else.

I think if I`m the prosecutor in this case, I just keep hammering one theme. She killed him. She killed him. She lied. She lied. Why are you going to believe anything she says now?

As opposed to what has happened now is now, there`s arguments about her mental state, and there`s arguments about whether or not she`s got this disorder or that disorder. And, frankly, that only, I think, can help the defense. It certainly doesn`t hurt the defense.

PINSKY: That`s interesting. It`s interesting from our perspective here at this program.

And speaking of jurors, Mark, I know juror number eight, a man by the name of Daniel Gibb (ph) was kicked off the trial last week. But it just so happened that prior to his getting the boot, he was arrested for something that they call in Arizona, get this guys, extreme DUI. It was hard for me to understand what that was. But apparently, his blood alcohol levels was extraordinarily high.

Now, Gibb was known for being a copious note-taker.

Janine, I believe you saw him on the juror panel there. What`s been lost by that guy having been particular kicked off the panel?

JANINE DRIVER, AUTHOR: I don`t know. It`s very interesting. From what I understand, is Jose Baez, I don`t think was a real good fan of his. But --

PINSKY: Martinez. Martinez.

DRIVER: Oh my gosh, I`m going to a wrong case. I`m on Casey Anthony. I`m six and a half months pregnant here. I`m doing the best that I can. So, Juan Martinez --

PINSKY: You`re going to pass?

DRIVER: Juan Martinez, I don`t think was a crazy fan from what I understand. However, people that are constantly coming into the courtroom, the locals that are there, they told me they thought he would be the foreman of the jury. That he was on the prosecution`s side.

I will say I sought right behind Jodi Arias` sisters, the brother-in- law. They hugged me. So I was within six feet of this juror that was like a -- I saw him taking unbelievable notes. And I saw people looking towards him. The other men that were on the jury would gather around him. I saw them making eye contact to one another.

So, only -- you know, no one knows. Maybe he`ll write a book or have an interview some day. He could have gone either way.

I thought based on his questions that I saw him put into the box, that he was probably more for the prosecutor than the defense.

PINSKY: I think he maybe (INAUDIBLE) -- Jenny, go ahead.

HUTT: Yes. Well, this is my question for Mark Geragos. I read that he told the arresting officer that he was on the trial for the Jodi Arias case. So, is that -- could that be the reason why he was tossed off the jury? Or is it the DUI?

GERAGOS: I can`t believe that it would be the DUI, unless somebody said he was going to be prosecuted by the same office for the DUI that`s prosecuting her. Then I could see where a judge would say, OK, we`re going to toss you off. That`s going to be a problem, especially if the defense asks for it.

If he was talking about the case while he was under the influence, or purportedly under the influence, that`s a separate and distinct grounds and, sure, most judges would say, look, I gave you an admonition, and the admonition doesn`t evaporate just because you`re at a 0.20 or something. So, therefore, that could be another ground as well.

PINSKY: Mark Eiglarsh, I --

GERAGOS: Just one other --

PINSKY: Go ahead, Mark.

GERAGOS: I was going to say one other thing. The copious note taking may be good -- I mean, that cuts both ways. I`ve had cases where people tend to think that that`s helpful for the prosecution. In a case like this where there is just an overwhelming amount of evidence, you -- if you`re a defense lawyer, you may want somebody who`s taking copious notes who`s going to methodically go through the evidence and weigh all of this expert testimony, because you really want their case to be decided on a battle of the experts if you`re the defense.

PINSKY: And Jodi, or perhaps her friend Donovan has been tweeting away again. We came across a few interesting tweets. Here`s one, Mark Eiglarsh, I`m going to have you respond to it. Ready?

Quote, "I`m working on a little project that is going to help support domestic violence shelters. I`m hoping it will be off the ground this coming week." Hmm.

EIGLARSH: How do you not get nauseated by that? Really?

HUTT: I`m nauseated. But --

EIGLARSH: Let me explain this: people ask me if I would defend her. I have defended people like her who have done acts that are abhorrent. But to trash Travis, I don`t know if I would feel comfortable doing it. And then to adopt this B.S., I am an abused woman thing, it`s just an insult to those who have really been abused.

PINSKY: Right. And that was -- when this case started, the thing that really jumped out of me, it was so surprising, that you would think people might really around this woman, put people who are actually victims saw through this immediately and were offended.

EIGLARSH: It`s not real. It`s a just not real. It`s manufactured. It`s obviously manufactured.


PINSKY: Janine, go. Finish off.

DRIVER: I was just going to say -- you know I shared my story that happened when I was 24 years old. Since that day that I shared that story, I have received over 2,000 personal e-mails where every person has the same exact response. They were battered. They were almost killed.

And the first thing they wanted to do was get out of the house, get to safety. They had access to knives, access to weapons. They could have killed the person that was victimizing them, but they didn`t do it.

PINSKY: They didn`t.

DRIVER: And it`s disgusting. I`ve received Twitter e-mails, threatening me, threatening me, saying I`m going to be sued because I come on your show and share my honest opinion. And I don`t respond them but I haven`t gotten a postcard from Jodi Arias. I`m waiting so I can sell it on eBay.

HUTT: Well, that, yes. And, Dr. Drew, I`m just amazed at how many followers she has on Twitter.

PINSKY: I know, Jenny was actually envious. She has 35,000 followers. What does she have to do to get 35,000 followers? Mark, finish this up, please?

HUTT: What do I have to do?

PINSKY: You ought to kill, Jenny.


GERAGOS: Well, I`m just going to tell you something. I`ve defended women, presented on multiple times for murder in battered women`s syndrome. There is no one set reaction. All of the experts, including the experts that have been called repeatedly in those cases by the prosecution, will testify to that.

And I have cases where the women have knifed, stabbed or killed obviously in the murder case, the batterer --


PINSKY: Mark, I got to close it off. But, Mark, I bet there was evidence of the domestic violence. I bet there was at least some.

GERAGOS: I`ll tell you, Drew, I`ll tell you, Drew. A lot of times what happens behind closed doors remains behind closed doors.

PINSKY: OK. Fair enough.

I have to stop. I got to stop. Next up, what Jodi said and did when she thought the cameras were not rolling. The behavior bureau is here to take a look at that.

And later, an exclusive interview with Travis` best friend. He took the stand during the trial. He was -- I thought his composure was great. He`s an interesting man. We`ll get his interview and tell us why he kicked Jodi out of his house, after this.


PINSKY: It is time for the behavior bureau. I`m back with my co- host, Jenny Hutt.

Now, Jodi gave a number of prior to the trial, on-camera interviews, but it`s what she said when she thought cameras weren`t rolling that we want to look at tonight. Take a look at this tape.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn`t get a chance to introduce myself when everybody`s like --

JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: What network are you with?


ARIAS: I`m already speaking with CBS. Oh, you`re the one --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I`m the one you were supposed to be speaking with.

ARIAS: OK. So you`re flying to Vegas.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, it`s actually a producer that does freelance out there. She`s the one that you were talking to and I`m helping her out. So, kind of confusing.

ARIAS: Yes. Sounds exciting either way.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, I already wiped it.

ARIAS: Oh, you did? OK, I guess that`s really all I need, sorry. Don`t roll the tape yet.


PINSKY: Don`t roll the tape yet.

HUTT: I can`t --

PINSKY: Joining us to discuss, forensic and clinical psychologist -- Jenny`s in shock. Jenny, you want to react before I introduce the guests?

HUTT: Yes, I can`t even believe it. I can`t believe that she was powdering her nose. That she was -- oh, that sounds exciting. She`s -- wow. It`s like narcissism to a whole another level. Is she deranged?

PINSKY: Well, she`s all of those things, my dear.

To discuss: Cheryl Arutt, she`s here with me. Also, psychologist Robi Ludwig, author of "Till Death Do Us Part". Human lie detector stays with us as well, Janine Driver. And the man who once dated Jodi, Abe Abdelhadi, on the phone.

Janine, first, you`re looking at that video. I hope you got to see the body language. What came to mind for you?

DRIVER: Well, it`s interesting. You know, she`s trying to build rapport. She`s asking this open-ended question. I love how you did the little bubbles. We used to see that on the show, "Blind Date." You know, she`s like, what, is she the reporter now?

And it`s very interesting. One of the skills I teach at the Body Language Institute, to sell someone, if you`re in the business of sales is to get them talking, ask open ended questions. And Jodi is in the business of sales.

I say for 16 years, I sold a one bedroom suite in a gated community. I call it jail. So, I sold jail by getting people to talk. She`s getting the reporters to talk, why? In hopes that they like her. Fascinating.

PINSKY: For me, Robi, it sort of feels some familiar like when she was asking to see the pictures of the crime scene, felt that same kind of manipulative quality, didn`t it?

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOLOGIST: Right. Well, I think what was so striking for me is how genuinely likeable Jodi can be. She can come off as very sweet, very seductive, very curious.

And these kinds of people, now, we`re looking from the outside. It`s very easy to demonize her or diagnose her, but when you`re actually in a room with someone like a Jodi Arias, it`s very easy to get sucked in. So, I think she was showing her likability, but on the other hand, we`re seeing she`s interested in coming off the vanity there in wanting there in terms of wanting to make sure she looks good.

PINSKY: Yes, Cheryl, Robi brings up a great point. It`s maybe why like LaViolette got sucked in with her and Samuels get sucked in. She`s like a good sociopath does, men that are sociopaths, very entertaining and compelling.

CHERYL ARUTT, PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely, Dr. Drew. She`s very, very charming here because she`s in her element. She`s greeting her public. She`s glowing. She`s fielding different reporters. And she seems to be basking in the glow of the attention.

She`s someone who -- when she`s good, she`s very, very good. And when she`s bad -- when someone crosses her and she`s not happy, watch out. Princess Jodi.


Abe, did you catch those comments my panel was just saying about her? That she could be very lovely and sort of alluring and manipulative. And then cross her and watch out.

ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI (via telephone): Yes. And this is why I think it depends on the level of intelligence of who she`s, quote-unquote, "charming". I think she preys on weaker personalities.

If you look at Detective Flores and the interviews that he did with her on those initial interrogations, he wasn`t getting bought, he wasn`t buying into none of it. And I thought it was wildly impressive how she would brake down and cry and sob hysterically and he would just sit here like Mr. Rogers and calmly say, yes, I thought we`re going to do the right thing today, but I guess not. And he`d just get up and walk out of the room.

It is possible, and I think if anybody`s got their wits about them and know they`re being played, especially now, I don`t know how she could charm anybody now, after the fact, but that`s just me.

PINSKY: Well, when people go in from the helping profession, I could see how they can get suck in, it`s why you shouldn`t treat people like this alone. You need to have someone there with an objective ear pulling you out.

Now, the phone sex audio which was just shocking for many, many reasons, we found another reason. Take a look at this.


ARIAS: Did you look at my profile picture?

TRAVIS ALEXANDER, VICTIM: Oh, I totally forgot.

ARIAS: It`s kind of an average picture. But I`m kind of hungry pictures.

ALEXANDER: You`ve got great pictures. I don`t know why you say that. You`re, like, very photogenic.

Seriously, hon, like, I`ve never seen you look bad in my life.

ARIAS: Yes, you have. When I have --


ARIAS: -- puffy eyes and have cried off all my makeup.

ALEXANDER: You don`t look bad then, you just look miserable.


PINSKY: Janine, think how manipulative that is. She`s trying to make him feel bad for making her cry, and talking about how she doesn`t look good on pictures, trying to manipulate compliments. And all the while knowing the whole thing is being taped.

DRIVER: Hey, listen, I have a 7-year-old son. He does this same exact tools on me all the time. Just coming here tonight, my son goes, well, I guess you don`t love me. If you loved me you wouldn`t leave me to go do that murder show tonight.


DRIVER: You know, that`s what she`s doing. My son is looking for what, validation, and you`re the doctor, Dr. Drew. You tell me. I think my son`s wanting me to say, I love you, you`re important to me. We`re going to do something special. I`m taking him to school tomorrow.

So, that`s his way of wanting me to validate him. And Jodi`s doing the same thing. Wouldn`t you agree, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Like a child. Yes, Jenny, you agree?

DRIVER: Like a child.

HUTT: I do. I do agree. But what I would also say, Dr. Drew, is earlier, you said, what separates Jodi Arias from the rest of us, like me. And just hearing that conversation about pictures, I could have a conversation like that with my husband -- I can`t find a good profile pic. I need to find another selfie. It`s what we tend to do.

The difference is, I don`t use it as a tool for manipulation. I use as a tool to help me because I`m insecure.

PINSKY: Right. Robi, did you hear anything different?

LUDWIG: Well, you know, my feeling about Jodi actually taping these conversations has to do with her disorder, that it`s not only manipulative, but that she would replay it. My fantasy is that she would play it over and over again so that she would know that she exists with Travis, that when she what was no longer in Travis` presence, playing these tapes made it real for her. That they did have a real relationship.


LUDWIG: So, I think that`s how sick she is. That when she wasn`t with her, she couldn`t feel like they had a real relationship.

PINSKY: As usually, this panel takes it to weird, scary places. But, Cheryl, that is consistent with the borderline quality, the severe borderline quality that we`ve been describing and we know what`s documented by the psychologists.

ARUTT: It absolutely is. I think that that is -- it`s fascinating and it`s true that that was a way that she could try to hold onto a piece of him and evidence that she could keep revisiting that she mattered. But there was also the plan B, that if she needed it, she also had this as a backup.

PINSKY: Wow, always the plan B, but that`s the psychopathic part that normal brains don`t usually think about, Cheryl. I`m just saying. But, again, that`s your job to figure it out.

Thank you, ladies.

Next up, two different experts with two different opinions about how Travis Alexander was killed. They will duke it out.

And, later, my exclusive interview with Travis Alexander`s best friend. He has pictures that have not seen publicly until now.

Stay with us.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A friend of ours is dead in his bedroom. His roommate just went in there and said there`s lots of blood.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s dead. He`s in his bedroom, in the shower.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said there`s blood. So, is it coming from his head?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s all over the place.

ARIAS: A .25 auto was used to kill Travis?

INVESTIGATOR: Mmm hmm. Yes, along with multiple stab wounds. You left palm print, at the scene, in blood.

ARIAS: I`m not a murderer, but I guess if I were to do that, I would wear gloves.

INVESTIGATOR: I know you tried to wash him off, tried to get some of the blood off, clean tried to clean him up a little bit.


PINSKY: So bizarre.

Welcome back.

Jenny, yes, go, my co-host.

HUTT: I mean, her level of calm in the interrogation, are you kidding me?


HUTT: She`s just -- who stole the cookie from the cookie jar? It wasn`t me. I wouldn`t eat a cookie. I would wear gloves. I`d brush-off the crumbs. I mean, really, come on.

Dr. Drew, she really is sick.

PINSKY: Cold-blooded. Cold-blooded.

HUTT: Yes. Exactly.

PINSKY: Now, Jenny, the last evidence the jury saw was the graphic autopsy photos of Travis Alexander. They presented a picture of how he was killed. And we want to get into that now. And a reminder to viewers at home, we`re going to get into some difficult material. We`re talking about a killing here.

There may be photographs, if you have young children you may not want to have them around the television right now.

Joining me now, two men who disagree on the sequence of events that evening.

First of all, pathologist, Dr. Bill Lloyd, and forensic crime scene expert, Randolph Beasley, attorney Mark Eiglarsh is with me to step in the middle just in case things get out of control.

And, Mark, I want you to load your guns and ask them some tough questions as well.

All right. Now, the police and prosecutors believe Jodi tried to wash Travis` body. You heard the interrogator asking her about -- telling her that he knew that`s what she had done.

Dr. Lloyd, let`s talk about that bizarre behavior. Does anything come to mind when you picture her doing that? What was she doing?

DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST: Yes, here we are at the end of another month, and we`re still talking about these injuries. The body normally gets washed after the remains are delivered to the medical examiner. That`s one reason why Dr. Horn (ph) speculated about the cause of death, speaking to the policeman at the crime scene, when he, in fact, hadn`t performed the autopsy and hadn`t washed down the body.

But here`s Jodi now, again, this woman who`s a victim of domestic abuse, after she slaughters the dude, she washes the sheets, she mops the floor, she washes the wall, and then gets rid of the camera. It`s all wrong, Drew.

PINSKY: Yes, it really -- it sounds -- all of this is this cold- blooded quality that Jenny was pointing out in the interrogation tapes. Let`s talk about Jodi putting Travis` body in the shower.

When the jury asked Jodi about this, she said she didn`t remember and didn`t want to speculate about that. Maybe, Randolph, you want to speculate?

RANDOLPH BEASLEY, FORENSIC CRIME SCENE EXPERT: Absolutely, Dr. Drew, that was one of the things when I watched the program with my wife and no one addressed this that I heard, and to my, it was obvious that she dragged the body back into the shower because she saw her own blood dripping onto his body. So, she knew enough to get rid of the DNA, and it was so much DNA because she cut herself in the process that that`s what she did. And then she cleaned up. I`ve seen this before in homicide cases. She did very, very well, but they never get it all. And that`s the good thing.

PINSKY: Mark Eiglarsh, you want to bring -- Mark`s got a comment, here. Go.

EIGLARSH: We`ve got to address, to me, the single significant issue here. Either a bullet to the brain, the brain as it was described by the medical examiner does render you immediately incapacitated, or it doesn`t. It`s pure science. Dr. Big Knife, help me out here.


DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST: Let me just make one important point. Where`s the blood? Had he been shot first, shot first, then there would have been massive bleeding. Have you ever cut yourself shaving? Have you ever picked a pimple? You bleed like stink. By the time he was shot, he was done bleeding because his heart had stopped beating. Now, Mark, when I turned for you, if Randolph was a friend of Travis, how can he remain objective in talking about these gruesome deaths --

PINSKY: Randolph, go, you tell us that. Go ahead and give us your --

RANDOLPH BEASLEY, FORENSIC CRIME SCENE EXPERT: I purposely avoided this until I saw the potential that the jury may miss this, because premeditation is gunshot first. When you look at the injuries, there was a bone injury, not a brain injury. Now, the testimony is fine. You can say probably gunshot last means maybe gunshot first. And that -- everything else.

JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: Guys, I think regardless of gunshot, knife, who slit what, where, when, she murdered the guy. So, I understand why --


PINSKY: Mark, go ahead.

EIGLARSH: This is a very important point. Not only does it completely discredit what she`s saying, you know, they have to kind of have an order to these things. And, if somehow there are defensive wounds on his hands, yet the other -- the other acts that she committed would have rendered him immediately incapacitated then there has to be some type of order to this thing. It`s pure science. And you know what --


HUTT: But it`s not pure science, because we can`t come up with what the actual answer is.

PINSKY: Well, hold on. Hold on.

EIGLARSH: I think we have.

PINSKY: Dr. Lloyd says --


PINSKY: But I think what you`ll hear from Randolph is that the bone injury was the issue and it redirected the bullet out of the nose before it ever really got to the brain and they couldn`t evaluate the brain because it decomposed so much. Dr. Lloyd, address that.

LLOYD: Taking a shot like that, if he fell unconscious, he never would have been around to receive those defensive wounds. He never would have put his hands up and say, no, don`t stab then cover his face and get cut on the back of the hands and then the webbing of the hands. The cuts are there. The facts are there. He was stabbed first, throat slashed, and then dragged to the bathroom where he was shot in the head.

PINSKY: Randolph, last word.

BEASLEY: OK. Last word. Everything else, all the other pieces of this puzzle don`t fit that. And since there is a chance that horn admitted a chance that he was not incapacitated, that fits everything else. He gets shot in the shower, he crawls, he coughs out blood in three areas of the bathroom, stagger to the hallway, and --

LLOYD: Blood, blood, blood, blood, blood, blood, where`s the blood? Where`s the blood.

BEASLEY: The legal issue, though -- Drew, the bottom line is, regardless of the order, the gas cans, all the other premeditation, I think is there, and it doesn`t really matter if this isn`t resolved. It`s still --

PINSKY: But, I think the point is, it`s the cruelty with which she went after him maybe after a gunshot wound.


PINSKY: -- spitting out blood on the sink and then she does away with him in the hallway, there`s all that tremendous amount of blood. I don`t know, guys. I don`t think we`re going to solve this tonight. Thank you.

Next up, Travis Alexander`s best friend, he will tell us and only us, how Jodi almost ruined the friendship between Travis and this young man and he`ll tell us why he did not want Jodi anywhere near his children. Back after this.

VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up at the top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," our the boldest accusation yet. The ultimate issue here. Here it is, Jodi committed first degree murder. We`ve got 12 jurors here in studio. You, our online jury at home, by the end of the program, we`ll render a verdict of guilty or not guilty to the ultimate issue, the one that takes us to the death penalty phase of the trial. Jodi committed first degree murder.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you were called to testify in Ms. Arias` behalf, would you be happy about that?



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because she murdered my friend in cold blood.


PINSKY: That was one of the highlights of the trial for me. I`m back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Cheryl Arutt and Mark Eiglarsh are still with me. And joining us as well, the man who took the stand to the Jodi Arias trial, Chris Hughes. Chris, we so deeply appreciate you being here. Chris is here exclusively. He has brought us new photos of Travis and himself.

But first, Chris, we just heard just now how very clear, one of the clearest, most honest moments on the stand was you, about how it felt to be a defense witness for somebody who had slaughtered your friend, and yet, there you were. What was that experience like for you?

CHRIS HUGHES, TRAVIS ALEXANDER`S BEST FRIEND: Well, I can tell you this. I`m glad he asked, you know? And I`m glad I was able to put that out there. But, you know, this whole experience has been so surreal. And it`s unbelievable that something like this would happen in anybody`s life. But yes, that`s the bottom line.

You know, this whole trial, you know, it`s not about the sexcapades and all of that. This is about what I said on the stand, she murdered my friend in cold blood, and it was premeditated. That`s at the heart of the matter.

PINSKY: Right. And the evidence -- the evidence for the defense is none or built on lies.


PINSKY: Chris -- yes, so Chris, first of all, I want to mention that you`ve brought some never before seen photos of Travis. We`re going to look at them as we go along here. Now, the pictures show you two as very, very deeply connected friends. I assume that`s true. And, you know, you`ve got a bunch of fans of Travis` on the panel tonight. Mark, you especially. Do you want to ask Chris anything?

EIGLARSH: Yes, Chris. My understanding is, when you heard about this tragic demise, immediately, you said, you thought Jodi. There was no one else that came to your mind. Take us back to that thought process. Why it is that you thought without question it was her?

HUGHES: Well, because of everything that we had observed up to that point. But yes, I get a phone call. I`m in Cancun. And Travis was supposed to meet us in Cancun. And I hadn`t heard from him. And I was nervous. And I kept calling him. And finally, his voicemail was full, and I said to my wife, I said, we`ve got to call the cops. You know, this is not like Travis.

And she said, well, call a friend. I called a friend. I said hey, go check on him. And that was at the same time that another group of friends were checking on him. And at four in the morning, yes, I get a phone call, said, hey, I`ve got bad news, Travis is dead. And immediately, I said Jodi did this. No question at all whatsoever.

EIGLARSH: Why? Tell me. I want to know why. In other words, what specific things did you know about her and his relationship together that caused you to say there is no question it`s her.

HUGHES: Well, first of all, we`re going to have to do an eight-hour show to get all that out.


HUGHES: But really, but let me answer your question in short. Travis -- I want to make this as concise as I can. We had Travis come to our room one night just to talk to him about some of these things that you`re asking about that we had observed in Jodi and her behavior. And it`s a long list, a way longer than we have time for tonight.

And Jodi was there, but she was downstairs in a different bedroom and sleeping. And we`re talking for a couple hours. And all of a sudden my wife, she`s got a sixth sense about things, and she says oh, my gosh. She`s out there. You know, she`s whispering this. And we`re all like looking at her, like, who, Jodi? And she said yes, she`s out there. She`s listening. And so, we`re all kind of freaked out and we change the subject for about 30 seconds.

And then, there`s a knock at the door and it`s Jodi. Now, this is (ph) in the late hours of the night. She`s supposed to be asleep in another bedroom. You know, she says, hey, is everything OK? And we`re like everything`s fine. Travis is like fine, I`ll come down to say goodnight a little bit later.

Well, then, we continue our conversation, maybe another 45 minutes to an hour goes by, and my wife gets this feeling again, and she goes she`s out there again. She`s listening. She`s whispering this, of course. And so, Travis jumps off the bed, jerks the door open, and there`s Jodi Arias with the most frightening, evil, I mean, I`ve never seen anything like it before or since, and I`ve seen a lot of things in my 40 years, nothing like what we saw that night.

And we knew -- it was just a feeling that we had that downloaded everything into our minds what this woman was capable of. We knew it in that moment. And as a matter of fact, we told Travis, you go downstairs and you handle that. We`re going to bed. We were so freaked out. And we laid there in bed, my wife and I wondering, like, are our children safe?

You know? Like do we need to go get our kids? How did we get to this place in our life where someone like this is in our house? We saw it. We felt it. We knew it then.

PINSKY: Chris, that is a profound, profound story. And I got -- we all have a ton more questions for you. So, please stay with us. We`re going to take a quick break. We`re going to come back with more with Chris. And a reminder, his wife, Skye, who also took the stand in the trial will be with us exclusively tomorrow, but we`ve got a lot more with Chris after this.



ALYCE LAVIOLETTE, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE EXPERT: Chris and Skye Hughes were very important to Mr. Alexander. He had a close relationship with them. They had a five-year friendship. Ms. Arias also liked them quite a bit. And they seemed to reciprocate in that regard as well.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What did the Hughes advice Ms. Arias to do?

LAVIOLETTE: They advised her to move on from the relationship, that Mr. Alexander has been abusive to women. There was information about Mr. Alexander calling Ms. Arias a skank and then acting like it was a joke. There was information about the way he ignored her in public places and would not allow her to put pictures of them up in places where other people could see them. Just basic ways that he treated her or they felt he mistreated her.


PINSKY: Welcome back. I`m with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, and our panel and Chris Hughes. Chris was Travis` best friend. His wife, Skye, will join us tomorrow. Chris, first, set the record straight -- well, before we set the record straight on that e-mail issue that LaViolette was mentioning, I want to read you a Twitter here.

It is from Mama Bear Jones. She says, "That story from Chris Hughes was mesmerizing and scary. Jodi is a dangerous, pathological person." My understanding, Chris, is your wife had some interesting nickname for her as well, is that correct?

HUGHES: Yes. She -- after that night, the next day, Skye kicked her out of our house, you know, went down in stairs and just said, look, you`re out. We don`t want you ever to come back. We don`t want to have anything to do with you. And from that day forward, she`s called her, you know, Peyton, from "Hand that Rocks the Cradle" --

HUTT: Yes.


HUGHES: Yes. And those are her nicknames from that day forward.

PINSKY: How long was that before she actually killed Travis?

HUGHES: That was April 2007. April-ish. It was around April 2007. So, it was a full year later that she killed Travis.

PINSKY: Now, set the record straight on that e-mail. Go.

HUGHES: Well, I`ll tell you this. I love that Ms. LaViolette did all the speaking for Chris and Skye Hughes. It`s just totally bogus, you know? And I`m so glad that I have this opportunity to set the record straight. Here`s the truth of the matter.

Jodi comes to our house unannounced, unannounced and is whining and complaining about Travis and, you know, lying about Travis and all of these things and we`re saying look, move on. If you`re not getting what you want, get out, you know?

PINSKY: Please move on, yes.

HUGHES: Yes. Move on. I mean, but she`s telling us, oh, I had a vision. I had a vision.

PINSKY: Oh, boy.

HUGHES: And I`m supposed to marry Travis.

PINSKY: Oh, boy.

HUGHES: Oh, yes. Yes. And she just couldn`t let it go. And we`re like, look, he`s not committing to you. Move on, you know? And then, my wife says to her --

PINSKY: Chris?


PINSKY: Yes. I just want to interrupt you. I know Cheryl has got a question for you. We have such limited time with you. And again, I appreciate you being here. And Cheryl, that kind of vision and the secret and magical thinking is something that has bothered us about her from the beginning.

CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., @DRCHERYLARUTT: That`s right, Dr. Drew. That is so scary. Chris, I just want to say, I`m so sorry for the loss of your friend. And when you were -- when you heard the defense make so much of this e-mail that you and were your wife wrote to really try to, it seems kind of handle Jodi, to get Jodi to maybe stay away from your friend, what was that like for you to hear it misused in that way to kind of framed as - - to try to to look like an abuser?

HUGHES: It was outrageous, you know? And if the truth be told, if we could get those e-mails and read them, I retracted in that e-mail feed, I retracted the word abusive, because I said, you know what? That`s over the top. You know, we would say rough around the edges. He was the T-dog. That`s what we called him, you know?

And I -- it`s just crazy that they were able to take this one little sentence out of a long string of sentences, several e-mails back and forth and manipulate my words. And you know, we didn`t get called in to talk about that. You know, anyway, it`s just --

PINSKY: I`m sorry to interrupt. I`ve got to make another break. I cannot let you go. Please, stay here. Jenny, you have got questions, and Mark, you`ve got questions. I`ve got another question about the way Travis being painted as a bad Mormon. We got a lot of stuff. Please don`t go. I`ll be right back with Chris.


PINSKY: Back with my guests, an exclusive interview with Chris Hughes. He was Travis Alexander`s best friend. And as you`ve heard from him, he had a profound insight, as did his wife Skye, who we will speak to tomorrow, into who and what Jodi was all about. And Chris, before we go on, I know you want to see Travis` legacy live on. Please share the plans with us.

HUGHES: Well, Travis -- Travis` life got better because of good books, you know, reading the right books and getting the right education. And so, one of the things that he was passionate about was going into inner city schools and inner city kids and giving them access to this information.

And so, we`re working on that right now. We`ve got a board assembled. We`re working on making it a non-profit. And we`re very, very excited to keep the legacy of Travis Alexander alive.

PINSKY: Is there someplace people can go to be a part of it?

HUGHES: Yes. Well, right now, we`re still accepting donations for the Alexander Family, and anything that`s left over from that will be donated to the Travis Alexander legacy fund. And they can go to -- they can donate at And I hope I got that right. Yes.

PINSKY: Fair enough. OK. Chris, tell me about your feelings about how they`ve been painting Travis as a bad Mormon. I mean, all religions tend to advocate celibacy or monogamy.

HUGHES: Thank you.

PINSKY: Let us go at that. Please.

HUGHES: Well, yes -- Mormons did not make this stuff up, right? I mean, you know, Islam, Jews, Christianity, and just about everybody else, you know? So, it`s like they`re painting him -- making him out to be this monster, right? And that just aggravates me. And they say, you know, he`s got this secret life. He didn`t have a secret life. He`s not living a double life.

He has a sex life, right? And most people have them. And they`re private. And I would say sacred, you know? So, to paint him out -- look, my wife and I knew he was having a relationship with Jodi Arias. We knew that they were intimate. We couldn`t paint you a picture of it. We didn`t know what it looked like. We didn`t know what they did behind closed doors. We didn`t ask and they didn`t say. There`s --


PINSKY: He was striding to struggle with these human issues that a lot of people struggle with. Jenny, last question.

HUTT: Yes. I just wanted -- do you think that Travis ever loved Jodi?

HUGHES: I can`t, I can`t use the L word in this scenario, but I do know that he cared about her. I`d like to say that he was just, you know, his night friend, but he really -- he really did care about her. So, that`s all I can tell you.

PINSKY: -- because he was a good guy. Chris, thank you so much.

HUGHES: He was a great guy.

PINSKY: We look forward speaking with your wife tomorrow. Right. Back with last call after this.


PINSKY: Thank you to Jenny Hutt for being my co-host today. Thank you to all my guests, and a special thanks to Chris Hughes. Excellent job. Interesting program. Thank you all for watching. I`ll see you next time. And a reminder, we`ve got "HLN After Dark" coming up next.