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Jodi Arias Murder Case

Aired May 3, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the life of Jodi Arias is now in the hands of the jury.

KIRK NURMI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Fear, love, sex, lies, and dirty little secrets. We really have things that don`t make sense.

His back is to her. He wouldn`t have seen it coming. She could have just shot him right there if that was her plan.

He`s so scared of her, he`s taking naked pictures of her in his bed. That is a new level of being scared.

Under this theory of premeditation, none of this makes any sense whatsoever.

PINSKY: Was Kirk Nurmi effective enough, convincing enough, believable enough?

Let`s get started.


PINSKY: Good evening, everybody.

Jenny Hutt, attorney and host on Sirius XM radio is my co-host. And she has been all week.

And later tonight, I have Chris Hughes back who has so much to say about the closing arguments. He has got a head of steam built up. We asked him to come back.

But first, Kirk Nurmi, in vigorous defense of his client, took shots at the state and the victim again and again. It didn`t always go as planned though. Take a look at this.


NURMI: What happened in the minutes in time between -- I think it`s important to talk about what this case is not about. It`s not about Snow White. It`s not even about any of the seven dwarfs. It`s not even about whether you like Jodi Arias.

Nine days out of 10, I don`t even like Jodi Arias.

What next doesn`t make sense? Well, the state tells you she got the car -- when did she get the car? She got the car in June, right? As she was getting ready to go on this trip.

She returns the car on June 9th. Travis Alexander says that`s so hot. Your orgasm is like a 12 year old girl having her first orgasm. Who says that?

JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: Who does that? Who comes to him and stands there?

NURMI: But not as concerned about things that happened on June 4th. I`m there to --


PINSKY: All the gaffes in court today.

Jenny, did she actually laugh when they were talking about who does that? Who says that? Did you see that today? She sort of laughed and lurched. So inappropriate.

JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Yes, the whole thing was inappropriate, the burying Travis and saying things like the whole 12-year-old having an orgasm thing, to make it like Travis was a pedophile because maybe he had a schoolgirl fantasy.

I mean, Dr. Drew, how often have you heard of school girl fantasies? How often did you hear about adult women wearing pigtails and then having sex?

PINSKY: Well, I think you told me, in fact, when we were both in makeup, you said who hasn`t? I said, it`s not my thing. But you reveal something about yourself. But I`m just saying. Does that mean that every guy that has a schoolgirl fantasy is a pedophile? No.


PINSKY: Joining us to discuss: Janine Driver, the human lie detector and author of "You Can`t Lie to Me", Mark Eiglarsh from, prosecutor Marcia Clark, author of "Guilt by Degrees," and the man who once dated Jodi, Abe Abdelhadi, who figured deeply into the closing arguments today.

But, first, I`m going to go out to Beth Karas. Beth, the jury has the case. Eight men, four women, and another juror made a surprise visit in court today. Tell me about that. Tell me what you saw today.

BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: Yes, dismissed juror number eight, who was arrested on a DUI a couple weekends ago showed up today, with a woman, I assume his wife. He did not talk to anyone. I did not have an opportunity to talk to him. He sat in the same seat in the courtroom where juror number five sat after she was removed. She showed up a couple days later and spent the afternoon. But he spent all day.

Some people take it as he showed up for Kirk Nurmi`s closing argument. Maybe he has a defense bent and was leaning towards the defense, but that`s not necessarily the case.

Anyway, he sat up against the wall on the public gallery side of the courtroom throughout the day. Not really sure beyond that. Maybe he just wanted to see his fellow jurors from afar and hear the end of the case.

PINSKY: Or, after having the habit of going in and feeling so deeply invested in this thing, how to you let go of it all of a sudden? Jenny, don`t you agree?

HUTT: Yes. I kind of feel bad for him. I think he was completely invested. He was devoted to this case. I feel for him.

I`d want to be there. I`d want to see it through.

PINSKY: Yes, you`re probably right. You`d want to see it through. Thanks a lot, Beth. I appreciate that report.

KARAS: Sure.

PINSKY: Now, I want to bring in my panel here. Here we go. Let`s bring them in.

We`ve got Abe.

Now, Abe, you came up a bunch during Nurmi`s closing arguments. I want you to listen to this. And I want you to tell me your thoughts.


NURMI: You heard Mr. Alexander talking about Mr. Abe. Mr. Alexander says that he intimidated him in the bathroom. He was a jealous guy.

I`m going to whip his (EXPLETIVE DELETED) because he kissed my girlfriend. Jodi says he wasn`t the girlfriend at the time. I don`t care.


PINSKY: All right, Abe. The defense was using you to make Travis sound like a bad guy. How do you feel about that?

ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI: Well, I think it`s classic of this defense to do that. Quite honestly, I didn`t have a problem with Travis physically. And to buy into the stuff that she told him -- it was nobody`s fault -- what can I say?

He`s dead. I don`t have a grudge against somebody who`s --

PINSKY: Abe, what you`re saying is the fact that she made him angry by lying to him about you, you put this all at her feet, right?

ABDELHADI: Absolutely. Well, see, and this is what`s so frustrating, is you think you have a face value relationship with somebody. You`re just friends with him or whatever. And little do you know that these lies are being spun to spin this guy. And quite honestly, I`m the only one that she could prove. I`m the only one in writing or in text or whatever.

She lied about him. She lied to him about a bunch of guys. And if the defense was going to bring that up, then it will make her look like a whore. And that would be bad, right?

So, that`s where --

PINSKY: Well, I think the prosecution repeatedly brought up her lies. So I think he did a pretty good job of sort of breaking that part down.

I want to slow you more of Nurmi`s closing argument. Take a look.


NURMI: We heard Ms. Arias being thrown down and held down and not being allowed to leave her room. Actually, and that`s unlawful imprisonment, aside from an assault. Double bonus for Mr. Alexander, assault and unlawful imprisonment. Aggravated assault, kicking her, breaking her finger.

Under the state`s theory, that woman was never hit, because it wasn`t in a police report. That woman, she didn`t report it. She wasn`t hit.

Come on. That is repulsive. He had a punching bag. And you saw the exhibits. He had a punching bag in the hallway outside his office. Maybe he needed that for when Jodi Arias wasn`t around.


PINSKY: Yes, I think, Marcia, everyone that has a punching bag is guilty of domestic violence. I think I myself might have to go from the punching bag to my wife.


PINSKY: Clearly, that`s going to happen.

What about the gamble of using of "this blame the victim" strategy, Marcia?

CLARK: Blaming the victim is the classic defense. Classic defense. Everything the defendant did is because the victim made them do it. And it`s always when you have an abuse situation there`s a claim like this one that she acted out, and she`s trying to put herself in the battered woman`s syndrome category. And it`s not working in my opinion.

But when you do that, you have to frame-up the victim as the aggressor. And that`s been their whole tactic all along. I don`t think it`s been a successful one, but that`s what they`re doing.

PINSKY: Now, Mark, I`m sure you had a head of steam. You and I had dinner the other night. You were expecting a lot from Martinez. Did you get what you wanted from him? And Nurmi, how about him?

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: OK. First of all, the chicken was fabulous. Thank you for sharing with Me, Drew.


PINSKY: Jenny was there, too. To be fair.


All right. Let`s start with the prosecution, OK? I still admire his passion. I think that his closing argument was a lot more effective than his cross examination. What I didn`t get were visual aids to tie everything in.

Sixty-five percent of people are visual learners. There is no reason why you wouldn`t have that in your presentation, particularly when the list from one to 35 at least of examples of premeditation could haven about spilled out for the jurors. There`s a lot more, but apparently, they have to wrap. So, no problem.

PINSKY: You seem less upset than I expected you to be. How about Nurmi? How do you feel he did?

EIGLARSH: I think he did the best that he could. I don`t blame him. He`s got a tough client, a tough situation.

I don`t think he believes this self-defense theory at all. And I can explain with more time, but I feel like we have to wrap.

PINSKY: OK. Janine --

HUTT: I agree. I don`t think he believes it either.

ABDELHADI: He doesn`t buy that for one second.

PINSKY: Janine, what about Jodi`s behavior, body language today versus yesterday.

JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: She`s laughing in court, which you already called out a couple different times. So, completely disrespectful.

But only is Jodi -- and she laughs when Nurmi says, I barely like her. You know, what was it, nine out of 10 days, I don`t like Jodi Arias. But here`s what --

PINSKY: That`s what, that`s the smile we`re seeing when he said that. It`s unbelievable. She smiled at that.

DRIVER: Nurmi does this to the jury. He points a gun with his left hand as he talks to the jury.

This right here is hand gun people, this is killing the jury dead. This nonverbal signal may have just killed his case by doing this. You don`t do this to a jury.

PINSKY: Thank you, guys.

Next up, the behavior bureau is here. We will try to answer the question, did Jodi-what was her language like today, and did she say B.S. in court today?

And later, several Travis Alexander`s friends are here exclusively with their thoughts. They got ahead of steam. The Jodi Arias case is nearing a dramatic end.

We`ll be right back.



NURMI: Fear, love, sex, lies, and dirty little secrets. These aspects of the human condition may not be universal. But they were, and each one of these aspects of the human condition played a prominent role in the relationship that Jodi Arias shared with Travis Alexander. The relationship that began in the fall of 2006 when Mr. Alexander met Jodi Arias at a prepaid legal convention in Las Vegas, and the relationship that ended tragically on June 4th, 2008.

And because these aspects of the human condition played such a prominent role in this relationship, it makes sense that the evidence that you`ve heard, starting on January 2nd, is a tale of fear, love, sex, lies, and dirty little secrets.


PINSKY: Time for the behavior bureau.

Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt.

Dirty little secrets.

Back with us: Janine Driver, joining us as well, Cheryl Arutt, forensic and clinical psychologist, and psychotherapist Eris Huemer, and psychologist Wendy Walsh, author of "The 30 Day Love Detox."

Wendy, Nurmi, again, trying to paint Travis as a bad guy. Will you please help me put this pedophile business to rest?

WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: OK. We have absolutely no evidence at all. And just because people fantasize about something sexually, it has nothing to do necessarily with their behavior, their sexual behavior.

And we don`t even really know that he did fantasize about it, just because he said, oh, you reminded me of a little girl or you sound like a little girl. That doesn`t mean he`s getting aroused by that exact thing. It`s just that the tone of her voice is bringing up a reference for him.

PINSKY: And, Eris, what about, Jenny`s ringing in yes on this. She brought this up in the last segment. So, therefore, if this defense is correct, every male with a schoolgirl fantasy is a pedophile. No?


PINSKY: Thank you.

HUTT: I was also -- Dr. Drew?

PINSKY: Please. Go.

HUTT: Yes, what I was thinking also was that Nurmi tried to allege that just because there were no other people who came forward who said that Travis was an abuser that that didn`t mean that in this relationship he wasn`t, that the sex of this relationship was what turned him into an abuser. I mean, come on.

PINSKY: That`s all ridiculous.

Eris, do you want to ring in on that? He is not a pedophile. You agree, Eris?

HUEMER: He is not. This is a crime of passion. And Jodi Arias is a pathological liar. And she creates fantasies in her mind.

So this entire thing was a fantasy played out that she`s actually writing her own manifesto book on. That she`s all made up in her mind. And I don`t know what she`s going to call it, maybe liar, liar, pants on fire.

But the thing is with pathological liars is --

PINSKY: Yes, go ahead.

HUEMER: -- the thing with path logical liars is that they think that lying is OK. It`s it completely justified in her mind that all of these lies were correct in her own mind.

PINSKY: Right. Right.

Cheryl, let`s follow along with that. Right. He had it coming. I was just defending myself. And, oh, by the way, I have this magical way of thinking and everything comes true and I`ll tell you all in a magical manifesto called liar, liar, pants on fire.

Go ahead, Cheryl.

CHERYL ARUTT, PYSCHOLOGIST: Good title, Eris. I like that.

I just want to speak to this whole idea about calling accusing him of being a pedophile.

Pedophiles are attracted to prepubescent bodies. Not developed bodies. If Travis had been a real pedophile, he would have absolutely hated Jodi Arias` breast implants.

PINSKY: Interesting.

ARUTT: I just want to go on record and say that.

PINSKY: Interesting. Right.

And, by the way, the pedophilia thing is not a part time thing. It`s not oh, a magazine fell open I happen to be aroused by it. Give me a break.

Now, Juan Martinez`s rebuttal, addressing Travis as an abuser, Jodi seemed to mouth something. I want to show this tape.

Janine, does this -- come on play the tape, guys. I want Janine to look at it.

Janine, do you need your body language power, your intuitive powers to figure out what she`s feeling -- ooh, look at that. What is she saying there? I believe it`s the word "bullshit". There it is. There it is. Right there.

Janine, go ahead. What do you make of all that?

DRIVER: Well, first of all, I agree. It does look like that, especially you slow it down in slow motion. But here`s the deal, think about it -- if you are a battered woman and he`s saying that you`re not and he`s going there. What should you feel?

There should be sadness. There should be emotion. There should be anything other than this snarky little B.S. comment.

And I got to tell you. Anyone who`s at home who`s ever been battered or been in an abusive relationship verbally or nonverbally, when you see Jodi Arias mouth that, that is not congruent.

Listen, I`m looking -- when you say you`re sad, you say you`re fearful, and you say you were in self-defense, and someone doesn`t believe you, I`m looking for those emotions. I`m looking for sadness. I`m looking for fear.

PINSKY: Go ahead, Jenny.

HUTT: She seemed arrogant in that moment, Dr. Drew. Irritated and arrogant.

PINSKY: You guys, I think that`s what we`ve seen all those days.

Eris, go ahead. Eris, first.

HUEMER: All of her empathy -- she has no empathy at all. She was smirking when Nurmi said I don`t like her nine out of ten days. And it`s just funny to her. It`s comical.

And back when she was prosecuted she said that Travis was such a great guy. That he really cared about her. All of that has now completely gone out the window, that Travis is the bad guy.

PINSKY: And, Wendy, I`ll let you comment, but what we saw on her face with the comment that she is talking about when Nurmi says I don`t like her nine days out of ten days, she didn`t just laugh and it wasn`t comical to her, she showed glee. She seems satisfied with that.

WALSH: She definitely has this arrogance about her that she`s believing a different kind of narrative that`s actually -- from the one that`s happening in her head.

But I just want to go back for a minute and say that, you know, a woman who`s been abused -- and I`m not saying she was. I don`t think she was. Might not exhibit feelings of fear and sadness that you would expect. They might actually have defensive anger, because, you know, after years and years of being battered it makes you a different person. It makes you a hard person. It really makes you very angry.

DRIVER: Here`s the difference.

PINSKY: Go ahead. Go.

DRIVER: If it`s genuine -- you know, if she`s really P.O.`ed, then the brow should come down. We lose that top lip and our head tucks in like a bull. We don`t see that. It`s just her cavalier, saying B.S.

PINSKY: And, Janine, you know, you yourself have shared your story here, that this is not the story of abuse.

Cheryl, this woman was not caught in an abusive cycle where she couldn`t get out. She had financial entanglements, kids. She`s living with him. She was living 800 miles away and went back and stalked him. Totally different situation. Would you agree?


ARUTT: I would totally agree. And Dr. Drew, battered women don`t drive 800 miles to be with their batterer when they had extricated themselves.

I`m going to have to call for the American Sign Language group. This is the American Sign Language. You know what that is? These are the horns and this is the action.

PINSKY: Fair enough. I`m speechless.

ARUTT: It`s what she said in court.

PINSKY: It`s what she said in court. Thank you for sharing that.

Thank you to panel. Goo job, guys.

Next up, Kirk Nurmi`s got some explaining to do.

We have a CSI expert who knew Travis Alexander. And he`s going to take us through the scene as it played out and compare what he believes happened in what was alleged to be the closing arguments today.

And later, people who took this videotape are back. They can`t wait to sound off on what they saw in court today. Chris Hughes also back after this.



MARTINEZ: Unfortunately for Mr. Alexander, one of the knife wounds is to the heart. Doesn`t mean he`s going to die immediately. It just means he`s going to die. Cut his throat from ear to ear.

He`s trying to get away, went to the sink. As he`s standing there, a mirror is reflective of what`s going on behind him. His eyes, his eyes are still open at that point. He can see. He can see the defendant deliver the strikes to his back.

But she`s not done with him yet. It looks like there`s been a wildebeest migration near his head. Look at that. She was over him, hovering.

How many times was she stampings around, stomping around there? She delivers this shot to him. Somebody that`s already dead.


PINSKY: Oh, my goodness.

Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. It`s just -- you look at the faces on the audience there. It`s just stunning, the brutality of this.

I got to tell you, you`ve got to look at HLN TV online to see these pictures. They`re just gruesome. But it give you a sense of who this woman is.

HUTT: Sad and gruesome.


OK. Now, I`m also joined by Mark Eiglarsh and Marcia Clark. And amongst us, joining us CSI expert who also happened to have been a friend of Travis Alexander. He`s been a great source of information for us, Randolph Beasley.

All right. Randolph, you`re going to take us through the scene. Does the blood spatter evidence support Juan`s theory of Jodi stabbing Travis in the back as he stood over the sink with a chest wound?

RANDOLPH BEASLEY, CSI EXPERT: No, it does not, Dr. Drew. Absolutely not. It defies the laws of nature as he said. And it is an unfortunate stance that he is taking. because when Travis was actually standing over the sink, what he was doing was probably looking at the gunshot wound to his head, and he was in more pain.

There was no castoff stains, no impact stains of blood on the wall or ceiling at that area of the bathroom, and no stipling at the gunshot wound that would be the coup de grace shot. So it doesn`t fit.

PINSKY: How come no one did any sort of physical analysis of the crime scene to figure out what all that blood was about? To me, it looks like somebody spitting blood, coming out of the face and mouth.


BEASLEY: He coughed out blood there.

PINSKY: Absolutely. Whenever I`ve seen -- I have patients cough up brood all the time. And that`s -- right there, that`s what it looks like when somebody coughs it up, not when it`s pouring of a vena cava wound. I`m really kind of bothered by all of that. And nobody seemed to make anything of that.

I want to ask you also this. Randolph, why the white coat?

HUTT: Yes. Why the white coat?

BEASLEY: This is the coat I wear, Dr. Drew, when I testify in court as a forensic consultant. I actually take blood, spatter it. I do cast off, and I create on paper, in front of the jury, so they understand it. They get it. And so that helps the case.

This case, they`re missing. And it`s going to hurt Travis` case potentially.

EIGLARSH: No. No. No. No. No. No. It`s not.


PINSKY: Mark first. Go, Mark.

EIGLARSH: Let`s get perspective here. We may never know exactly which came first, how it all happened. But the bigger picture is the jurors are going back to the jury room, and within seconds, they`re just going to -- someone`s going to say, fog and they`re going to start laughing. And they are going to go, they want us to believe that she can remember everything, but was it in a fog as she, wherever she did it, stabbed him in the back and did all those other things. It`s just not believable.

The rest, the rest, we can read about it in some book as everybody speculates later on after the guilty verdict.

PINSKY: Marcia, fog so convenient.

CLARK: Mark is so right about that, Drew. Yes. Mark is so right, because -- you know what? You never know exactly how a crime occurs. There is -- there`s the details this way and that way. And this first shot and the second blow and where the knife wounds were inflicted.

At the end of the day, the jury goes back and says who do we believe? And yes. The fog. She remembers conveniently.


CLARK: Exactly.

EIGLARSH: Wouldn`t you have made a bigger deal about the fog? It`s just so silly.

CLARK: The fog, my favorite part, Mark. We`re going to go with the fog again. I would have been up there laughing at the jury, the fog? Really?


PINSKY: Marcia has a genuine, comedic reaction to the fog. Marcia, you really think it`s funny. She cleans up the crime scene. And the best that she`s got is fog. It`s laughable.


PINSKY: I`m getting a little foggy myself.

MARCIA CLARK, AUTHOR, "GUILTY BY ASSOCIATION": It`s hard to resist, Drew. I mean, yes, it would be hard for me resist to reenact the cross examination. So, Jodi, so, you remember how you got to the house, you remember what you did, what you said, how you dressed, how you undressed, et cetera, et cetera. That`s all cool, right? But then, Jodi, what happened when you picked up the knife, the fog, the fog comes.

I would be standing in front of that jury laughing. I`m sorry. It`s so ridiculous. It`s so absurd. I would apologize to them and say, look, this is a murder and it`s very sad, but this, defense is a joke. How can you resist it?


PINSKY: I can`t resist talking about the scene. It is no joke. So Randolph, walk us through it. You think there was a shot first over the sink and then what happened?

RANDOLPH BEASLEY, KNEW TRAVIS, KNOWS JODI: No. The gunshot, Dr. Drew, was he was sitting in the shower. The gun jammed. Travis crawled, coughing blood at two areas of the bathroom on the wall, then stood up, looked at the mirror, most likely at the gunshot wound. And then coughed blood, made his way to the hallway, which is where she butchered him in the hallway.


BEASLEY: It fits. The only thing that messed it up was the medical examiner having this theory that he couldn`t have lasted 22 seconds instead of two seconds. It`s ridiculous.

PINSKY: Listen, I`ve had patients that have had gunshot wounds to the frontal lobe of the brain and walked out of the hospital. We used to call it (INAUDIBLE). The people were involved in the criminal action, they got shot -- the criminals were the ones that walked out with the bullet in their head and the innocent by standers are the one that got a random bullet and didn`t make it out. Nurmi says Jodi wasn`t tried to clean up the scene to cover her track. She was just throwing some water down in some sort of panic. What the hell happened kind of reaction? Randolph, do you buy that?

BEASLEY: No. It`s obviously a clean-up. There are so many bloodstains that are missing, and the whole blood trail, cleaned her blood off of his body? You know, she did, Drew, a lot, a lot with that, but it didn`t work.


EIGLARSH: That would explain how I know now how Nurmi does not believe his own client. Let me just make clear something.

HUTT: Definitely not.

EIGLARSH: I have had clients just like this. And I have actually told jurors, yes, I don`t like this person nine out of ten or whatever he said, OK? If somehow she was really an abused victim, a domestic violence victim who was forced to be victimized by having to kill someone and then go through this trial four years of her life being spent in jail for a crime that she`s not guilty of, there would be compassion there.

My clients, as annoying as they are, I would have compassion for them if I felt they were innocent. The fact that he offered to have her plead to second-degree murder and he gave her up at the very end by suggesting manslaughter at worse shows me that he doesn`t believe anything. And that shows that he`s a reasonable person.


PINSKY: Well, I don`t know about contempt. But he doesn`t like her and he doesn`t believe her. It`s both. Mark was saying he should -- should have some empathy for the situation there -- abuse survivor. I agree with that. And he did not.

Next up -- thanks guys, by the way. Really good panel -- the videotape you`re watching right there, the couple behind that camera is here again. Will their nightmare ever end no matter what the jury decides.

And later, also, similar nightmare for Chris Hughes. He returns to talk more about some of Jodi`s antics, some of which the jurors never, ever heard. Be right back.


PINSKY: Welcome back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. We are joined by Hollie and Jacob Mefford. They`re back with us tonight. This is Jacob`s first interview since he was on the stand in the courtroom. And of course, the Meffords were the ones that provided us with this tape of Jodi if you want to take a look where you played that, her head is in Travis` lap. It`s where I coined the term castrating kitten, I think is how we described her after that.

Jacob, I also want to show part of your testimony on the stand, so people can get a sense of what you went through, and I`ll be wondering or asking you what more you would have liked to have said. Let`s see if we can switch now to the tape of Jacob on the stand, testifying.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to show you exhibit no. 632. Sir, who is this individual to the upper left hand corner that seems to be doing most of the talking?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And there appears to be something blondish or white on his lap. Who is that?

JACOB MEFFORD: Jodi arias.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At some point in this video, what is the defendant do? Do you know whether or not she keeps her head down there or not?

JACOB MEFFORD: No, eventually, she looks like she gets bored, and she lifts his arm off of her and sits up.


PINSKY: Jacob and Holly, thank you again for joining us. We really do appreciate it, and again, hopefully this nightmare will be over soon. What more did you want to say on the stand?

JACOB MEFFORD: I would have liked to have been able to exonerate Travis on the fact that he wasn`t a woman beater. You know, of course, they wanted me to validate the fact that Travis did not hide Jodi, that he had no problem, you know, with public display of affection which of course discredits her case.

I would have loved to been able to just maybe state a few more words about the fact that, you know, we never saw any behavior of him being abusive or anything like that. But of course, you know, the prosecution had their angle. And I felt like Juan Martinez did a good job with it.

PINSKY: And holly, you were, of all the people I`ve interviewed about Travis, I think you probably became more emotional than anybody. You confronted Jodi. You got what was going on here. Where you at now? What are your thoughts?

HOLLIE MEFFORD, KNEW TRAVIS, KNOWS JODI: You know, last night, I had a nightmare that the jury came back with a not guilty verdict. And I woke up this morning, you know, worried. And then I realized, if those jurors don`t convict her, they`re as crazy as she is. So, at this point, you know, I think they`ll see right through her, especially the way that she was in court today. If your life is on the line, you`re not laughing about it.

PINSKY: Yes. It really was sort of glee and insolence and strange emotions we saw with Jodi. Mark, you`re still here with us, aren`t you? Would you like to ask Jacob or Hollie any questions?

EIGLARSH: Yes. I just want to kind of an emotional level -- well, first, let me just say, your wall color is fabulous. I don`t know what it is, but I love it.


EIGLARSH: Sorry. I digress.


PINSKY: It looks very Miami. I`m sure you would like it.

EIGLARSH: Let me ask you this. You know, I didn`t know Travis. I`ve come to know him to some extent by what we see. My stomach`s in knots, personally, not professionally. I get what the defense is doing. I separate the doer from the D. He has a job to do, Nurmi, and he`s just doing his job. I get it. Zealously defending the client.

But personally, I`m offended. I`m bothered. I`m wondering how you guys are coping with it and what you do when you hear your friend being trashed every minute, just I mean, every minute they`re saying something about him and it`s just not true.

JACOB MEFFORD: Well, I tell you what, my experience, of course, being on the stand and having to actually deal with Nurmi basically on a one-on- one situation in pre-trial interviews, I get that he`s professional, but you know what, someone they could try to tell to me that it`s just a job, you know, so is selling crack to kids. I don`t know how he sleeps at night, to be honest.

So, for me, the emotional side of it, yes, I`m very irritated at the fact that, you know, there`s no way in his right mind you could possibly believe this crap. I mean, there`s no way. And so, for him to be able to go through this. Yes, I`m like, I guess the 250 bucks an hour is pretty easy to coach him through it. But other than that, yes, on emotional level, it definitely -- it makes me very angry.

PINSKY: Well, let`s remember, he tried to get out of this case, and the judge wouldn`t let him out. Jenny, you have a question? Is that you?

HUTT: I do.

PINSKY: Go ahead.

HUTT: Jacob, when you were on the stand, first of all, that must have been so hard for you. And second of all, how did you feel when you saw Jodi crying? What was that like?

JACOB MEFFORD: I tell you what. You know, for me, the professional side, I just wanted the case to, you know, to go the way that it needed to be. So, I had an opportunity to connect eye, you know, to connect eyes with Jodi. And of course, she had that smirk on her face like she did. And if looks could kill, she was dead on the spot and we wouldn`t be here right now.

But shortly after that, to see her, there`s actually a monitor. And of course, she had her attorney there. And when I -- when I looked back over to try to see her again, she had hidden behind that monitor.

She wouldn`t look at me anymore, and of course, the video went up and she starts crying because once again she`s so busted because it`s one thing to, you know, have some pictures, but to have a video like that to clearly show that Travis was, you know, affectionate, I just -- you know, I thought to myself, you`re not crying for Travis or the case. You`re crying because you`re busted once again.


PINSKY: What`s that Hollie?

HOLLIE MEFFORD: I was so mad at her. I was at home watching on my iPad and when she made that face, I was so mad at her. I was yelling at the iPad.

PINSKY: Well, Hollie, first of all, thank you guys for coming back. And Hollie, I feel confident the nightmare will have been just a nightmare. But, we`ll follow up with you and make sure that you feel good about how things play out. Thank you, guys.

Next up, Travis Alexander`s best friend, Chris Hughes, back with us. He is angry, and he will tell you why.

And a reminder, a special two-hour edition of "HLN After Dark" follows our show. Ryan Smith is standing by. Ryan, tell us what you`ve got.

RYAN SMITH, HLN ANCHOR: Let`s make it three hours. We`re going to go all the way after midnight on the East Coast with our in-studio jury. We`ve got a jury in Phoenix. Vinnie Politan is going to be here. a panel of experts. We`ve got judges, investigators, everybody who`s been all over this trial. And now, we`re in verdict watch. So, now is the time, Drew, now is the time that everybody is concerned about.

The jurors are home, but we are going to be here with our two juries debating everything that happened. That`s "After Dark" coming up.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After this orgasm is heard, after Ms. Arias articulates this, Travis Alexander says that`s so hot. Your orgasm is like a 12-year-old girl having her first orgasm. Who said that? Let`s hope, ladies and gentlemen, that he doesn`t know what that sounds like. You don`t say that, unless, you have that interest.


PINSKY: Wow. Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Also standing by attorneys, Marcia Clark and Mark Eiglarsh. Joining us, Chris Hughes. Chris, you were Travis` best friend. You knew Jodi well. You were in the courtroom today. First of all, I want to apologize for even replaying that tape. I know seeing him say that must be extremely disturbing. And I heard you`re angry and that`s why you`re here, so have at it.

CHRIS HUGHES, TRAVIS ALEXANDER`S BEST FRIEND: It`s OK, because that`s actually a good place to start, but you know, two of the legs that the defense rested their case on today, we heard about the pedophilia and we heard about this abuse, this terrible, physical abuse. Let`s look at the pedophilia, first of all. There are so many -- that story has changed so many times over the years.

So, let`s look at -- you know, they`ve come at this from several different directions. Does he like -- you know, is it prepubescent boys, which we heard that story. Or is it prepubescent girls, which we heard that non-sensical (ph) story or is it full grown adult women who`ve been surgically enhanced. Which is it? OK. That`s number one.

Number two, the abuse. My wife said it so good on your show the other night. They`ve had five years to find one woman or a man or a child that Travis has allegedly abused. And they came up empty handed. So, they`ve got people like LaViolette, you know, on there reading people`s minds and looking into the future and into the past. So, yes, I`ve got a few more points to make as well.

PINSKY: Yes. I`m sure. And by the way, not only not a person, not a computer website, not a magazine page, not an evidence of anything like that. And then, the stuff that they do hammer away, LaViolette, you mentioned her name, is from something you guys wrote to get Jodi away from Travis.

HUGHES: Right. Right. Yes. And so -- I mean -- I wish we had more time, Dr. Drew, but yes, nothing on his computer. I personally talked to the guy who analyzed his computer a couple of years ago. And I asked him the question, was there anything, anything on there. He told me -- it`s probably the cleanest computer he`d ever seen. And I said this, yes, but you can wipe a computer clean, right? They`ve got that software that you can do that.

He goes, oh, yes, he could have done that. And he said like rings on a tree, I can tell how many times a hard drive has been wiped clean. He said this hard drive was pristine, like new condition. It has never been wiped. No evidence whatsoever.

PINSKY: Mark, go ahead.

EIGLARSH: Chris, listen, I also think this whole pedophilia thing is from her sick mind. And I think the jurors feel the same way. The only thing worse, though, than them alleging the pedophilia and the abuse is if the defense had actually been consistent. You seem to be frustrated that they can`t keep their story straight. That`s a good thing. The juries aren`t going to buy it then. You know?

The defense is doing what they got to do, but then, ultimately, the jurors aren`t going to buy it because it`s not a consistent --

PINSKY: And Marcia, I want to give Marcia chance to talk to Chris, too. You have not talked to Chris yet. Go ahead.

CLARK: Yes. Yes, you know, Chris, I have to say, your statement and your wife`s statement is so impressive to me. You guys have the whole -- the complete statement about Travis and about your view of him with Jodi. You`ve known him for ten years. If I was the prosecutor, the thing I`d do with you both on the stand, Chris, you`ve known him for ten years. Tell us, have you ever heard of a women complaining of sexually deviant behavior.

Have you ever heard of a woman complaining that he`s a pedophile? Have you ever heard of any child or any mother or father complaining of his behavior? Have you ever heard anything like that?

PINSKY: And the answer is never --

HUGHES: That`s right.

CLARK: That`s my question, Chris.

HUGHES: Never, nobody. Everybody -- I mean, this guy is one of the most beloved people I`ve ever known in my life. That`s the irony of this.

EIGLARSH: The jurors got that, you guys. I believe that they got that.

CLARK: There it is. There it is. You have somebody right there who`ve known him for this long. If there`s any kind of complaint like that, we certainly would have heard it and he`d know.

PINSKY: Yes. And Marcia, Chris has a way of cutting through all those -- BS that Jodi mouthed today in court. He also said on the stand when Nurmi asked him, would you be happy to testify for the defense, he said no. She slaughtered my friend. This is what it`s about. He`s a beloved guy. She slaughtered my friend.

Got to take a break. Reminder, go on over to for evidence, testimony, photos, and insight in this case. More with Chris Hughes when we come back.


PINSKY: Back with Travis Alexander`s best friend, Chris Hughes. Chris, before I go to you, though, Mark Eiglarsh, do you need to evacuate your studio? There seems to be fire alarm going off there.

EIGLARSH: You see what I do for you? I leave my family, I risk my life. There is literally a fire alarm going off --

PINSKY: Hats off to you, my friend. Chris, I want you to -- we have very limited time and please leave us with a story I understand you have for us about Travis as an antidote to the poison that was being spewed in court today.

HUGHES: Great. Travis Alexander`s driving down the street. He sees a homeless man. He pulls over, he talks to him, gets to know that he seems like a normal guy, just had some things happen in his life.

He says I`m going to help you out, brings him to his house, lets him get showered, gives him a change of clothes, his own clothing, takes him down to a local restaurant, talks to the manager, tells the guy`s story, asks if the manager if he`ll give this guy a job, gave him a job, and changed that guy`s life forever. And that`s the Travis Alexander that I know and love.

PINSKY: Yes. It`s very sad.

EIGLARSH: Thanks for sharing those stories, Chris, because we`re hearing such crap in court.


PINSKY: That`s right. Chris and Sky will both be back with us on Monday. We`ll allow our viewers to call in and talk to you guys. We really appreciate it. Mark, get out of there. Last call is next.


PINSKY: Time for the last call. Jenny, thanks for be being with me all week. You`ve been a great companion and a perfect companion for all that`s gone down. It`s very interesting, isn`t it?

HUTT: Thanks, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Really well done. Thank you for bringing the mermaid hair tonight, too. We all appreciate that.


PINSKY: Thank you all for watching.

HUTT: Anything I can do.

PINSKY: Thank you to all my guests tonight. I will see you next time. A reminder, a special three-hour, three-hour edition of "HLN After Dark." Stay with us here at HLN. It starts right now.