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Jodi Arias Verdict Watch
Aired May 7, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: But when he goes down, there is a direct strike to his neck.
JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: At this point, I didn`t even know that -- if he had been shot.
MARTINEZ: ... because she stabbed him in the heart.
ARIAS: I began to tell him things that I thought would...
MARTINEZ: ... because she slashed his throat.
ARIAS: ... comport with what the forensics would show.
MARTINEZ: She couldn`t let him go. Even from Yreka, she couldn`t let him go.
And because she shot him in the face and because she premeditated it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have your blood at the scene.
ARIAS: He always told me repeatedly that not -- it had to have been more than one person.
MARTINEZ: Jodi Arias caused or killed Travis Alexander.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Jodi Arias slashes and shoots her lover to death, leaving Travis Alexander dead in a wet shower stall, his neck sliced ear to ear.
Bombshell tonight. We are in a verdict watch here at HLN. We are live, camped out here at the Phoenix courthouse just behind me, the jury clock ticking, jury deliberations now going on 14 hours.
With her lover, Travis Alexander, slaughtered and buried and she herself on trial facing a possible death sentence, Jodi Arias chooses to take to Twitter, attacking both the state, the prosecutor, Juan Martinez, and me.
At nearly 14 hours of jury deliberations and going, is the Arias jury set to acquit Jodi Arias?
We are live and taking your calls. As the moments, the hours, continue to pass, it is now becoming a harsh reality that this jury may very well return an acquittal or a hung jury, either of those disastrous to the state, disastrous for crime victims all across our country.
Take a look at what has happened in the past. When you don`t know a horse, take a look at the track record. Look at what has happened in cases like this before.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The state of Florida versus Casey Marie Anthony. As to case number 2008 DF (ph) 15606-0, as to the charge of first degree murder, verdict as to count one, we the jury find the defendant not guilty. So say we all, dated at Orlando, Orange County, Florida.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury in the above-entitled action find the defendant, Orenthal James Simpson, not guilty of the crime of murder in violation of penal code section 187A, a felony upon Nicole Brown Simpson.
We the jury in the above-entitled action find the defendant, Orenthal James Simpson, not guilty of the crime of murder in violation of penal code section 187A, a felony upon Ronald Lyle Goldman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The people of the state of California plaintiff versus Michael Joe Jackson, defendant, count one, verdict. We the jury in the above-entitled case find the defendant not guilty.
Count two, verdict. Count three, verdict. Count four, verdict. Count five, verdict. Count six, verdict. Count seven, verdict. Count eight, verdict. Count nine, verdict. Count ten, verdict. Not guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People of the state of California versus Robert Blake. We the jury in the above-entitled action find the defendant, Robert Blake, not guilty of the crime of first degree murder of Bonnie Lee Bakley.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: No one will ever forget Orenthal James Simpson peddling, "I want to Tell You," his video and book that he made money off after his acquittal. We will never forget that scene of tot mom, Casey Anthony, if it was her, running across a tarmac to a private plane and taking off for parts unknown.
There she is. We think that`s her, or was it a trick on us? Was that tot mom? She`s now set to write a book, a TV movie, a paid interview, maybe on a European television station.
Is that what is waiting for Jodi Arias? Those are the questions that are being asked right now. Joining me here at the courthouse, of course, Jean Casarez and Beth Karas.
Jean, you saw the jury, several of them, on several occasions leaving in groups to go get a soda, to go to the bathroom. Number one, I assume they had a bailiff or a sheriff with them. And what exactly did you observe?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": You know, I looked so closely, Nancy. First of all, the jury is hardly coming out for air as they now deliberate. But I looked at their demeanors when they went out in those groups. And the male jurors that I saw today were pretty much business as usual. It was the same demeanor that I feel I saw in the courtroom.
But the female jurors -- and I saw two female jurors that came out. They came out together, and they came back with nothing. So maybe it was a smoke break. But one juror who looks just like Jodi Arias`s mother was just walking like this. She was defiant. She was strong. She was tough. The other female juror looked focused and strong.
And right before she turned that corner to go into the hallway that led to the jury deliberation room, I saw her just go like this. And then she went in. They`re strong. They`re firm. I think there`s dissension.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Jason Lamm, here at the Phoenix courthouse. Also with us, veteran lawyer Darryl Cohen, former felony prosecutor, now defense attorney. Gentlemen, thank you.
Darryl, let`s all take off our respective hats, me as a crime victim and prosecutor and you two as defense attorneys, and let`s get down to what`s really happening right now.
I don`t care what anybody says, all these on-air pundits that have never tried a case. Darryl, you have been in the prosecution`s shoes. The longer it goes, typically, by my estimation, that`s bad for the state, Darryl.
DARRYL COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, normally, I would agree with you. But in this instance, because we have three different charges against her, I think we`re looking at a compromised verdict. I think the prosecution overcharged with the death penalty. Second degree murder I think is going to likely be what exactly the jury`s going to do.
GRACE: OK, first of all, let me just -- let me just correct you. She is not charged with the death penalty. She is charged with murder one.
GRACE: And the state laid out days and days of evidence showing that she planned this crime. All right, now, I don`t know why...
GRACE: ... you would call that overcharging, but let`s get back to the facts. I`m not asking you to give a closing argument. I`m asking you about what these prolonged deliberations mean.
COHEN: Normally, Nancy, I think...
GRACE: Darryl, second try. Take two.
COHEN: All right, take two. I think that, normally, a long deliberation is very good for the defense. In this instance, because there are several verdicts that could happen, because of the length of the trial, because of the way her defense lawyers presented it and because of the way the prosecution was, they`re having a problem.
And I think what they`re going to do is ultimately -- ultimately, they`re going to reach some sort of conclusion that will be between those who want her convicted of murder one and those who want her convicted of manslaughter and perhaps those who want her acquitted. I think we`re looking at murder -- at murder two.
GRACE: All right, what about this, Jason? What about, they are arguing. Somebody is not going along with murder one. That`s very obvious. What they could do -- what they could be hung up on, Jason, is, OK, we know this is a death penalty case. They know that from jury selection because they were "Witherspooned." In other words, everybody, there`s a U.S. Supreme Court case called U.S. v. Witherspoon which says a certain type of juror will be disallowed on death penalty cases. So they all know this is a death penalty case.
So Jason, what if they`re hung up on, If I give her murder one, do I have to give her the death penalty? I think that`s a legitimate question that could be going through their heads right now.
JASON LAMM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It is, Nancy. And you`re right. But the jury`s instructed that right now, they`re only considering guilt or innocence.
But I wouldn`t go losing your mind just yet. That white smoke isn`t billowing out from the courthouse rooftop. They`ve got 654 exhibits, 57 days of trial and 38 witnesses. It`s a lot to consider.
But at the end of the day, if they can`t unanimously agree on murder one, they go down to murder two. They`re not considering penalty at this point. They are instructed that they cannot do it. There`s just a lot on the table right now.
Don`t go biting off your manicure...
GRACE: All right...
LAMM: ... but I do agree with Darryl. The longer this takes, the better it is for the defense.
GRACE: Excuse me!
LAMM: Just that simple.
GRACE: I am a working mother of 5-year-old twins. I`ve been camped out at this courthouse since before daylight today. I don`t have time for a manicure. So don`t stereotype women now or ever. This isn`t the time...
LAMM: Well, Nancy, you know what? I`m a working father...
GRACE: ... for that kind of
LAMM: ... father of 3-year-old twins...
GRACE: Let`s get back...
LAMM: ... and I`ve been here for four months.
GRACE: You can cut his mike now. Let`s get down to business. I want to go to Marc Klaas, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation.
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, yes, Nancy, I mean...
GRACE: All of you, please recall that Marc Klaas is a victim of crime. His daughter, Polly, was kidnapped and murdered.
And my question to you, Marc, is if this jury does not come back with a murder one, what does that say to crime victims and murder victims` families all over this country?
KLAAS: Well, certainly, it would be a blow to all of us, and it would just be another indication that the American justice system is so broken that a jury can`t even come in with a reasonable expect -- that a trial can`t even happen without the reasonable expectation of the correct sentence being offered or the correct verdict being brought forward, is what it means to me.
And like you said at the top of the show, it`s happened time and time and time again, particularly in cases where there`s a physical attraction that`s obvious in the defendant themselves.
GRACE: Well, I`ve got to tell you something, Marc. I don`t know if you`re immune to this, but after having been, like you, a tangential victim of murder, when I see the justice system apparently failing, it is so upsetting. It is extremely upsetting because, you know, much like you, after my fiance`s murder, I became a felony prosecutor. You became a victims` rights advocate. And I poured my life and my heart and my soul and still do into what I believe is justice in our system.
And when you see what you perceive as the system failing, it`s like a kick in the teeth! It really is.
KLAAS: You know, we find ourselves, in these situations, wondering if the jury was sitting in on the same trial that we sat in. But I can tell you from my experience in our trial, when it was completely obvious what had gone on, it still took the jury four days to come in first with the guilty verdict and then ultimately to come in with the death penalty.
A trial that I attended recently for murder victim Michelle Le (ph), exactly the same thing happened. It seemed as the days went on that the jury was weakening, that they would come back with some kind of a lesser verdict. But in the end, they came back with the correct verdict. They found this woman guilty of first degree murder, and she will now spend years and years behind bars.
So hopefully, we won`t get too far ahead of ourselves and can still have faith in this system.
GRACE: Well, I`m still believing, everyone. And this is not about, Will she get the death penalty? Will she be put to death? That`s not what I`m talking about. I`m talking about a verdict that speaks the truth. I am talking about justice, that the jury does the right thing!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You took pictures of him in the shower just before he died.
ARIAS: I don`t think he would allow that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the camera actually took a couple of photos by accident around the time he was being killed.
ARIAS: Really? I wasn`t there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Be honest with me, Jodi.
ARIAS: I was not at Travis`s house. I was not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You left a palm print at the scene, in blood. What`s going on there?
ARIAS: Couldn`t my palm print have already been there, and then I touched it?
I didn`t hurt Travis. If I hurt Travis, if I killed Travis, I would beg for the death penalty!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live, camped out on the courthouse steps, bringing you the latest in the Jodi Arias murder one trial. Believe it or not, in nearly 14 hours, the jury still has not rendered a murder one verdict. They`re not even close, from what we understand.
Jean Casarez and Beth Karas with me right now. We heard from Jean -- her description was chilling -- that two of the women -- one looked extremely exhausted going back into deliberations, wiped her face and went back into the ring, the other looking defiant and angry as they left for a break.
Out to you, Beth Karas. What, if anything, have you observed?
BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION": You know, I did not see what Jean saw because I was outside when she was inside. And we switch off. So one of us is always up there. So...
GRACE: What did you see?
KARAS: But I did see them leave at the end of the day. And I did hear talking and what sounded like maybe laughter, at least light banter. Initially when they were leaving the jury room, two deputies are walking them out. They walked out in single file.
But as they got out into the hallway where all the media were, then they got more sober. And they just had -- they`re stone-faced and they walked to the elevator and left.
GRACE: So to paraphrase that, you heard jurors being jocular, laughing at some point, but as they walked by the cameras, they stopped all that, became sober, and were no longer communicating. That`s wise because they don`t want the outside world to, you know, even hear them being friendly because anything they may say could be miscommunicated or misinterpreted.
You know, that`s interesting. You know, Jean, I`m sure some of them have formed alliances, but I want to hear, again, in a nutshell, what you observed with those two women jurors.
CASAREZ: Sure. And first of all, let`s not assume they`re laughing with each other because the deputies hold the door open, I think, and let them go out. So someone could have been laughing at the deputy...
GRACE: Right. What did you observe?
CASAREZ: ... or something as they were leaving.
GRACE: That`s my question. What exactly did you observe?
CASAREZ: I understand that`s your question. And the focus is when I saw first two jurors leave with a deputy, they came back, I`d say, in 10 minutes, men. I saw no demeanor change from what I saw in the courtroom. That`s what I`m basing all of this on. They came back with Coke, Diet Coke and apples, went back in.
Twenty minutes later, three jurors come out, one being the female that looks like Jodi Arias`s mother. She was walking with that gait that was just strong, totally different demeanor from what I saw in the courtroom. And that is significant to me.
And then, finally, at the very end, five jurors went out for, like, a break, came back in, two females, Jodi`s mother -- looks like her -- and then a blond lady, and that`s when I saw once again the focus, the strength, the defiance, and then the other juror that`s sort of blondish, wipe her face just, like, I`m going in again. And then they were gone.
GRACE: OK. You know, a lot of people say you can`t judge from demeanor, but I tell you what. That`s a bunch of hogwash. You can tell what people are thinking, or their feelings, at least, from their demeanor, Jean. You absolutely can. All three of us have seen it a million times.
We`re taking your calls. Let`s go out to Letty in California. Hi, Letty. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I just had a quick comment also that I love your hair up, and good job growing the bangs out. And then number two is, if the jury comes up with a lesser, can the judge go back in and kick it back up to first degree?
GRACE: Sadly, the judge cannot interfere with the jury verdict. I think if I were prosecuting this case right now, I`d rather have a mistrial than a murder two or manslaughter because at least I could start over with a brand-new jury.
We are live at the courthouse in a verdict watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: Yes, she could go out and buy a gun. (INAUDIBLE)
There is no other explanation than that she`s the one that stole that .25 caliber gun, this (INAUDIBLE) gun that, according to her looks like a toy, this small gun. And on May 28th, at a time when she`s living there...
ARIAS: I can remember three specific times, one when I discovered it, another time when I was cleaning that area again and then on June 4th.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know, I don`t know what it takes to get a murder one verdict anymore. I`m not sure what it takes.
You know, out to you, Matt Zarrell. We heard about the planning. We heard about days, literally days of preparation to murder Travis Alexander. We heard how he was slaughtered, defenseless, naked in a shower, didn`t see it coming. We heard about the cleanup, the lies.
What is going on with the jury, Matt? What could possibly be the holdup?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, I think it`s part of -- part of this is figuring out murder two or murder one, the intent, that Martinez went out of his way to show that Arias intended to kill Travis, that it was a covert mission.
But I have to say that Kirk Nurmi did an excellent job in his closing argument showing that some of Arias`s actions, including saving receipts and some of her movement with her debit card shows that she was -- she would have been detected on her travels. It`s not so much a covert mission as the state is trying to claim.
GRACE: Well, you know, the comeback to that, Matt Zarrell, is that no criminal enterprise is perfect. So what she did was simply slip up and make mistakes and was left with no alternative but to use her ATM card.
Everyone, we are taking your calls. We are in a verdict watch here at HLN.
I want to remind you, American Amanda Knox tried for the murder of her 21-year-old British roommate. Chris Cuomo interviews Knox -- "Amanda Knox: The Unanswered Questions" tonight, 10:30 Eastern, CNN.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Ask me if I killed somebody, the answer is, No, I didn`t do it. I didn`t do it. I didn`t do it. Not, You can`t prove it. Not, You can`t place me at the scene. Do you understand how, You can`t place me at the scene, sounds cagey?
AMANDA KNOX, TRIED FOR MURDER: Yes. I mean, I have professed from the very beginning that I didn`t do it, and no one believed me. I was screaming it to the prosecutor when they were screaming at me during my interrogation, telling me that I had amnesia, telling me that I had to know. And I told them I didn`t know and I didn`t do it and I wasn`t there. And no one listened to me. It`s like I`m having to prove my innocence instead of just saying it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: Did you ever see any indication that he had, for example, photographs of little boys?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
ARIAS: I walked in, and Travis was on the bed masturbating with a picture of a little boy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... be all over him and hugging on him and have her arms around him (INAUDIBLE)
MARTINEZ: Did he ever curse at you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, never.
ARIAS: He looked at me. He said [EXPLETIVE DELETED].
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jodi had told a lot of lies. The Travis that I knew was kind and loving, and he never abused me.
MARTINEZ: Did he inflict any physical violence on you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, never.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live camped out here at the courthouse. We are in a verdict watch here at HLN, hoping the jury hands down a verdict that speaks the truth. We are taking your calls. But first, let me go out to a special guest joining us, David Cook. A critical component of the O.J. Simpson civil trial.
David, you represented the Goldmans, the father of murder victim Ron Goldman, may he rest in peace. David Cook, is Arias set to make millions? Like O.J. Simpson did?
DAVID COOK, ATTORNEY: Yes, she`s set to make a lot of money. She has a compelling story. We`ve seen her 18 days on the witness stand and telling tales of sex and violence, and that stuff sells. She`s going to put out a -- if she`s acquitted, I`ll bet you the title of the book would be "Gore Porn: Desert Gothic Horror," and she`ll sell millions. Just millions. And O.J. would have made millions --
GRACE: You know, David Cook?
GRACE: I`m sorry, I thought you were through right then. But what I`m getting at is all of this seemed so infeasible before, the fact that Jodi Arias, who slaughtered an unarmed person, who walked away without a bruise contrary to her claim of self-defense, slaughtered a guy because he was no longer interested in her. That`s what it boils down to, David.
And at one point, we were talking about a made-for-TV movie, selling a book, she wrote a manifesto, she is selling her art online. Even her underwear were sold on eBay. She sent out tweets, which I`ll get to in a moment, laughing at the quote, "sucker" that bought her underwear. It`s -- my stomach is just churning. How do you perceive, David -- this is your expertise -- how could Jodi Arias make millions? How could she do it?
COOK: America has an insatiable interest in this type of what amounts to be pornography, and it is terrible and it is awful and it is dreadful. But it sells. And that`s just the reality of the American marketplace.
And yes, she`s a horrible person, and hopefully the jury will come in with a conviction of first-degree murder, and she`ll meet her sentence. But if she is acquitted, this is just the reality of the American public. And we have -- one doesn`t have to like it. But one has to realize this is what she`s going to do.
GRACE: David, you were so very closely with Fred Goldman, the father of one of O.J. Simpson`s murder victims, Ron Goldman. Do you think that family has ever gotten over the not guilty verdict in the O.J. Simpson case?
COOK: When I started that case, I was told early on never use the word closure. That was the first thing that was told to me, never. There is never, ever closure. A crime like this is like throwing a rock in a pond, and, you know, the circle, you know, the waves get bigger and bigger. And a crime like this just moves from generation to generation to generation. Nobody will ever forget it. It`s horrific.
GRACE: You know, David Cook -- when I went through that with my fiance`s murderer going to trial, it wasn`t sensationalized. You know, he was convicted. But you know what? Those effects never leave you. They never leave you. It completely changed who I was. It was nearly 30 years before I could even consider marriage or start -- really starting over from that day that he was murdered. And I`ve talked to Kim Goldman. I`ve talked to other members of the family. And I don`t think you can ever get over a jury turning its back on a crime victim.
Question to you. What do you think about the Goldman family and how they have been kept away from all the millions that Simpson has made?
COOK: Fred has done everything he can over now 12 years. You know, since the civil -- to grab everything he can through my efforts and the efforts of others. And we have been frustrated through the protection of law, Simpson`s pension, and other legal devices and not-so-legal devices. But the answer is, it has been frustrating for Fred. And if Miss Arias is acquitted --
GRACE: You know what? Hold on just a moment, David. Liz and Justin, take down Simpson`s face. I don`t even want to look at it. I don`t even want to look at him while I`ve got Goldman`s lawyer on the phone. It is just so upsetting that apparently this is where the Arias case is headed, according to many court watchers.
I have not given up on this jury yet that they will return a murder one verdict.
I want to talk about, while everyone else is concerned about justice, Jodi Arias tweeting from behind bars, attacking the state, attacking her lack of a commissary order, attacking me. We`re taking your calls. Everybody, the family album is back with your photos tonight. Here are our North Carolina friends. The Gofers (ph). They love their cats, music and family night together. Share your photos at hlntv.com/nancygrace. Just click on Nancy`s family album.
GRACE: Welcome back. We are in a verdict watch here at HLN, and we are taking your calls. But first, out to Jean Casarez and Beth Karas. Jean, they came in at a different time today, and they also worked straight through their lunch break, didn`t they?
CASAREZ: They did. They did. I mean, those small groups came out and came back tomorrow morning, back again 10:00, the later hour.
But Nancy, for the majority of this trial, they started around 10:30 or so. And maybe they`d just like to start a little later.
GRACE: And a question, Beth, if they wanted to deliberate into the night, are they restricted from deliberating longer than they do or starting earlier?
GRACE: Are there any restraints on them?
GRACE: What have they been told, if anything?
KARAS: The judge has told them they can set their hours. They can set their hours, but they`re encouraged to work within general court hours, only because of the financial cost of keeping the courthouse open and having security worked, you know, burning the midnight oil. So they`re not encouraged to work -- we saw O.J. Simpson`s Las Vegas verdict come in at 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning Eastern time. They`re not going to do that in this courthouse. They`re not going to keep it open that late.
GRACE: Where do all the lawyers wait? Where are they situated during verdict watch?
KARAS: Well, Juan Martinez is in his office, which is in a building adjacent to the courthouse. And the defense attorneys, I believe, are in their offices, so they`re not at the courthouse, although Jennifer Willmott (ph) did make an appearance with a mitigation specialist first thing this morning, and then she left. We did not see Kirk Nurmi. Juan Martinez made an appearance. He was seen in the hallway, and he left also. So it seems like parties assembled first thing maybe just to make sure everything was copacetic, and then they left and no sightings, at least in the afternoon.
GRACE: Everyone, also taking your calls, Jean Casarez and Beth Karas. It`s not a secret to anybody that Jodi Arias has been taking to Twitter at night when she goes home to jail. She`s attacking not only Martinez and the state, but me as well. Let`s see some of her tweets, Justin, if you could put those up. Obviously, she`s not concerned about the jury deliberations. Now, that`s one she sent a while back.
The ones that she sent last night are also very, very telling, if we could see them, that would be great. Jodi Arias tweeting -- I`ll go ahead and read those. OK. "Nancy Disgrace has set back the cause of all women who survived domestic violence. Her circus makes a mockery of something very serious." I guess that would be your murder trial, Jodi Arias, something serious.
Let`s just pause on that one and not go to the next tweet. I want to talk about that one for just a moment. I want to go out to domestic violence survivor, also the winner of "America`s Next Top Model," season 8, Jaslene Gonzalez. What do you make of that, Jaslene? You`re a domestic abuse survivor, and you`ve lived to tell about it, praise the Lord. Do you think all of us, myself being a crime victim, you as well, are making a mockery of the justice system?
JASLENE GONZALEZ, WINNER, AMERICA`S NEXT TOP MODEL: No, I don`t believe you are. If anything, you`re creating awareness here. I think that`s my whole objective is to create awareness and teach even young teens to recognize and how to deal with domestic violence.
You know, it comes in so many different forms. And, you know, this is one of them. And, you know, they need to understand that domestic violence is a crime.
GRACE: What do you make of Arias, who absolutely is not a domestic violence survivor, absolutely was not abused by Travis Alexander, and is using his dead body and his memory to try to get off on a murder one count, claiming that she`s a victim and that she`s selling survivor t-shirts?
GONZALEZ: I`m so upset at this, Nancy. I just feel like her justifications are a lie. And, you know, I believe that a survivor would have somehow would have placed a restraining order, would have somehow spoken about this. You know, some way, somehow, they would have mentioned this before. So it`s like you really didn`t go through anything to claim or, you know, there`s no proof that you went through anything to claim that you`re a survivor. And you know, to me, it`s also --
GRACE: What do you make of the fact that earlier you had told me, when we spoke before, that you believe Arias fits the profile of being an abuser herself? Why do you say that?
GONZALEZ: You know, for example, selling these t-shirts, that`s already a characteristic. She has the ability to actually deceive others. You know, even herself. You know, I think by selling these t-shirts, she`s actually controlling other people.
GRACE: Out to Dr. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist. Leslie, weigh in.
AUSTIN: I couldn`t agree more, Nancy. Those are classic traits of a sociopath. They believe their own lies, they`re charismatic, and they`ll do anything to get their own way. If anyone`s making a mockery of domestic abuse, it`s Jodi Arias, projecting it out onto you. It`s disgraceful because she has no evidence that she is the victim of domestic abuse. I simply can`t believe it based on what we heard.
GRACE: Also with us tonight, Clancy Talbot, a very dear friend of Travis Alexander. Clancy was actually confronted by Jodi Arias when Arias was in a jealous rage over Travis Alexander. I want to talk about what Travis Alexander`s family is going right now as the jury takes its time in delivering a verdict.
CLANCY TALBOT, FRIEND OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: Yes. Right now it`s just -- it`s very frustrating. There`s a lot of anxiety. There`s a lot of apprehension. It`s just so hard waiting. And the longer we wait, the more stressful it gets. And, you know, his family has been so strong through all of this that, you know, right now we just, you know, I`m praying for them, and, you know, there`s so much support out there worldwide praying for them. But it`s hard. It`s really hard.
GRACE: Justin, if you would roll through the rest of Arias`s tweets last night from behind bars. As we are all hoping for a verdict and feeling for Travis`s family, Jodi Arias takes to Twitter in her spare time. Clancy Talbot with us. What do you make of her tweets, Clancy?
TALBOT: They sound to me just like Jodi. Everything in there is oh, I tried to, you know, come up with -- I can`t remember what it`s called, but she tried to agree with the state on something, and it`s their fault that they didn`t take the deal, the plea deal.
GRACE: Oh, I know the one you`re talking about.
TABLOT: Which I think was murder two.
GRACE: We just showed it, Clance. It was that she had wanted to settle the case for murder two. Out to Jean and Beth. Actually, Jean, she wanted to plead guilty to murder two, where she could have gotten about ten years behind bars at a minimum. Isn`t that right? And the state turned it down?
CASAREZ: You`re exactly right, yes. She was willing to plead to intent to kill murder. And that tweet last night, Nancy, really confirms her belief of guilt.
GRACE: Yes. Because she`s saying, I wanted to enter a plea. And isn`t it true, Beth Karas, that if she had pled to that, she would have only gotten -- she could have gotten the minimum of 10 years behind bars. She never offered to plead to murder one.
KARAS: Right. It carries a minimum of ten years, but a presumptive sentence of 16, and it could be as high as 22. That`s the law at the time she was arrested. It`s now changed last year, maximum 25, but at the time, 2008, the law was 22. She couldn`t have gotten more than that. But she said in one of her tweets -- didn`t she say something like, I wanted -- the state forced me to go to trial? And I`m scratching my head saying, wait a second. You`re the one who killed Travis Alexander. You forced yourself to go to trial.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTINEZ: Jodi Ann Arias is the only person who indicates that there has been a sudden quarrel of passion. Nothing in the scene itself indicates that.
ARIAS: Wish that it was just a nightmare that I could wake up from and then just find out that everything was still the same way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Jodi Arias on her way back to her jail cell as she prepares for yet another day of jury deliberations. She apparently is not worried about a murder one conviction. I`m only wondering what she`s going to tweet tonight if anything. Last night, she sent out tweets attacking Juan Martinez and myself. Typically, her tweets are whining that her commissary order didn`t show up. She didn`t get her pickles or her pickle juice or her cinnamon rolls, or whatever it is she orders. Very interesting. Out to you, Matt Zarrell, how is she tweeting? How is it working from behind bars?
ZARRELL: Well, she has rights. Because she hasn`t been convicted of anything yet, she has the right to use the phone. So she`s calling her friend Donavan Bering, whom we`ve had on the show, and Bering is posting on Twitter for Arias on her behalf.
GRACE: OK. And we`re, do you believe that these are really her tweets? Out to you, Gina, Beth, Jean?
CASAREZ: Yes. No, definitely, Nancy. Your show had Donavan Bering on. And Donavan told me that she would either go to the jail at night and talk to Jodi and get the tweets, or she will call her, as Matt just said, and then post them. But they`re definitely from Jodi.
GRACE: You know, Beth Karas, they`re so self-absorbed. I mean, Travis Alexander`s family can hardly walk. They can hardly see. Their eyes are so swollen, red from crying. They can hardly get out of the courtroom, and she`s whining she didn`t get her pickles? It`s hard for me to take in.
KARAS: Right. And she does have a lot of money, you know. I did get a hold of some of the records. And the judge ordered that no records could be further disclosed after about April 10th. But until then, she had people depositing money in her commissary account from across the country, in person and then by mail. And online, calling an 800 number. And one guy from Long Island, New York, went to that kiosk at the jail, one time in March 1 and one time on March 12, in person, and he deposited $200 on one day and $800 the other day. So as of April 10th, she had $2,200. She had a lot of money that she could spend. That`s a lot for an inmate.
GRACE: I still want to find out who bought her underwear.
GRACE: We remember American hero, Army Corporal Deangelo Snow. 22, Saginaw, Michigan. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, mother Deloris (ph). Grandmother Jean (ph). Brother Damon, sister Miracle. Deangelo Snow, American hero.
And now back to our live coverage of the verdict watch in the Jodi Arias trial. Out to the lines, Steve, Ohio. Hi, Steve. What`s your question?
CALLER: Hi. Big fan from Cleveland. Nice to talk to you, Nancy.
GRACE: Thank you.
CALLER: OK. Basically, do you think that Jodi planned to stab Travis exclusively in the shower and that the gun was just insurance to make sure that he never left the shower? Basically planned but botched?
GRACE: Steve, you are right on the money. I`ve always thought she planned to murder him in the shower so she would be able to clean it up better. Because, you see, all those stains on the carpet, really, tell the tale themselves.
I think you`re exactly right. I think she meant to kill him in the shower, turn on the water so blood wouldn`t be everywhere. Which is a point that never really came out at trial.
Everybody, the jury has gone home for the day. We`re still in a jury verdict watch, however. Dr. Drew`s up next with an interview with Travis Alexander`s girlfriend, Deanna Reed. Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. We`ll all be right here tomorrow, camped out, hoping, praying for justice. And until then, good night, friend.