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PIERS MORGAN LIVE
Three Missing Women Found Alive; Kidnap Victim Amanda Berry Has Confirmed That She Has Six Year Old Baby
Aired May 7, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: This is PIERS MORGAN LIVE. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. Tonight, live, late-breaking news from Cleveland's house of horrors. We're asking all the big questions, what did the FBI find today, where are the Castro brothers right now and what about Amanda Berry, Gina DeJesus and Michele Knight, and a 6-year-old found in the house? Were there more children?
Plus the most important question of all. How could all this have happened in plain sight? Tonight, what the neighbors saw and what the people who knew the suspects think now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TITO DEJESUS, ACQUAINTANCE OF ARIEL CASTRO: This has come to a shock to me, to hear that, you know, he's involved in all this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: I'll talk to Tito DeJesus in a moment. We've learned that the three Castro brothers, Ariel, Pedro and Onil, will be interviewed tomorrow and could be charged by Thursday. And as the investigation moved forward, a Jeep Cherokee and a red pickup truck have been towed from the home on Seymour Avenue.
And now we go live to the crime scene where Kevin Freeman of FOX 8 News in Cleveland has been covering this case since the young women first disappeared.
Kevin, thank you for joining me. Obviously, for anyone like you who's covered this for so many years, it's a quite extraordinary end to three concurrent investigations, I guess. What is the latest and let's start with the three young women. My understanding is that two of them are heading home and they're OK, but the one is not in great shape. What can you tell me?
KEVIN FREEMAN, REPORTER, FOX 8 CLEVELAND: Now officially, all the FBI will tell us is that they are in the custody of FBI victim specialists. There was talk -- we did learn that two of them have been released from the hospital yesterday, but at this point, they won't tell us exactly where they are and investigators right now aren't even speaking with them in very much detail. They just want their mental state and their physical state, they want to focus on that before they start delving into more details. But right now, they're protecting them pretty closely.
MORGAN: But we think, though, that maybe Michele Knight, who is the oldest of the three women, that she is the one that's been having most difficulties, is that right?
FREEMAN: Well, that's what we've heard. Again, nothing official. Police and FBI won't tell us exactly who may be still in the hospital, if one still is, but that yes, that is what we have been hearing, what people have been saying.
MORGAN: Now in terms of the three brothers, they are still in custody. They have to -- I believe under Cleveland law, they have to be charged within 36 hours, and we are expecting them to all be charged. Looking at pictures of them now.
Do you know what the charges may be? We're hearing that they may all be charged with kidnap and rape of these women, but have you heard any more?
FREEMAN: Well, that would be a start, certainly, and as you mentioned, 36 hours, they must charge them within 36 hours. It's been over 24 hours at this point, so you would imagine that there would probably be charges tomorrow, maybe Thursday, but they haven't said exactly what they would be charged with, but certainly the charges that you mentioned would most definitely be a start and probably many, many more.
MORGAN: And, Kevin, how do you feel as a reporter that's covered this story almost from the start, so for a decade, really, how do you feel personally about the way this has all turned out? Because it is quite extraordinary.
FREEMAN: You know, it's very extraordinary and actually, I'd say it's a little personal, too, because I started 10 years ago when these women went missing, at least Gina DeJesus and Amanda Berry. We didn't do a lot on Michele because we didn't know a lot about her. But their families held vigils every single year.
Their families made sure that people always remembered them, that their names and faces stayed on the news, that they stayed on poles and, you know, for me to see the ending of this, an ending that a lot of people didn't expect, you know, I just wasn't sure what had happened to them.
But yesterday was a pretty emotional day for the entire city, and definitely for me, but the entire city. I mean, we had people, hundreds and hundreds of people coming out here just to be on this scene.
MORGAN: And, Kevin, we're going to show a map now which I think shows really quite how remarkable this is, the story, because it will show where these women were all taken and of course, where they ended up and really, you're talking about an area of all within three miles.
As somebody who knows that area well, are you staggered as most people seem to be that all this could have happened in such a close area where almost all the people in that area would have known these girls or known their family? Are you as amazed as the rest of us that they have been found right in the heart of the area where they were taken?
FREEMAN: Well, yes, I am amazed at that. The fact that they probably have been here in this home for the entire 10 years, and as you mentioned, it's not far from where each one disappeared. They each disappeared a year apart. They each disappeared within blocks apart and what boggles my mind is that at least the two of them, Gina DeJesus and Amanda Berry, they were snatched in broad daylight.
Amanda was coming home from her job at Burger King. Gina DeJesus was walking home from school so it was daytime and Lorain Avenue, which is where they were, that's not a -- that's a very heavily traveled thoroughfare so, yes, that -- that's certainly amazing.
MORGAN: And, Kevin, finally, the house of horrors, as it's now being known, is behind you. More and more details are coming out, not being completely confirmed yet, but we're hearing about chains and dungeons under the house. We're hearing about, you know, all sorts of despicable things, names apparently scrawled across walls and so on, plus this suggestion that the women between them may have had a series of pregnancies which may have been deliberately terminated by these brothers, or at least one or two of them, with severe beatings.
Do we know anything about this in a factual sense? Are we still waiting for confirmation?
FREEMAN: Yes. Well, from a source, from another reporter who has worked on this story, a source, a very good source says that the words -- the letters RIP, rest in peace, are scrawled on the wall in the basement and there's a woman's name which would lead you to believe that another woman was in there at some time.
They also say that one of the girls told investigators that that woman was with them for awhile and then one day, she woke up and the girl was no longer there. The other thing I can say is that this FBI investigation that's going on as well, they have, in the search warrant, they say that they are looking for evidence of a birth -- a birth or births, plural, which would lead you to -- which would lead you to believe that possibly they are looking possibly for bodies of fetuses or possibly just evidence that there had been children, more children there.
We know that Amanda Berry has a 6-year-old daughter that was rescued at the time she and the other girls were.
MORGAN: Kevin Freeman, thank you very much indeed.
I now want to bring in three neighbors who noticed some strange doings at the house on Seymour Avenue but never guessed the horrible truth.
Joining me now is Annita Lugo, also her daughters, Faliceonna Lopez and Nina Samoylicz.
Welcome to all three of you. Obviously, an enormous shock, first of all. Let me start with you, Anita, as you're the mother of these girls. To find out that this utter horror story has been going on for 10 years right on your doorstep. How does that make you feel?
ANNITA LUGO, NEIGHBOR OF ARIEL CASTRO: It's very -- I have a lot of mixed emotions. Very mixed emotions. I feel like I wish I could have did something, you know. But really didn't know. Witnessed a few little things -- well, I didn't witness, you know, I witnessed a situation, my daughters witnessed another situation. It was all weird to me, but I really never called the police or nothing.
MORGAN: Faliceonna, you are I believe 16 years old, is that right?
FALICEONNA LOPEZ, DAUGHTER OF ANNITA LUGO: Yes.
MORGAN: Now you witnessed two years ago Ariel Castro, one of the three brothers who is being held, the man that owns that house, you witnessed something extraordinary in his backyard. Tell me about that.
LOPEZ: Well, me and my sister Nina, we were across the street atop of a neighbor's porch and we were all just hanging out having fun and I hear my sister say, look, and we look across the street and it's Ariel, and he has a woman, she's naked, and she's just in the backyard, and my sister said something or he heard us, and like he like told her get down, get down, get in the house, and she like -- she was naked and he had like a mattress up, and he was like trying to disguise but he didn't know that we could still see over it.
And he made her crawl on her hands and knees to get into the back and he took her to the back like of the door and that's the last time we seen her. She was just like -- she was naked and it was hard, and we didn't really think nothing of it at first, and then we just thought it was weird so we like waited and just went home and we told our mom, and that's just what happened from there.
MORGAN: And Annita, when they came back and told you this story, clearly it's more than weird now, given what we now know. But at the time, did you take any action?
LUGO: No, I didn't, but I was kind of hurt that they didn't tell me as soon as they saw it, you know. They have cell phones for a reason, you know. You see awkward stuff like that, because I definitely would have called then but it was hours later and I really -- I really didn't -- you know, I was just stuck. I was dumbfounded, didn't know how to take it, you know?
MORGAN: And let me turn to you, Nina. In terms of Ariel Castro, you guys knew him quite well. What was he like?
NINA SAMOYLICZ, NEIGHBOR OF ARIEL CASTRO: He was -- he was fun. We all thought he was very nice. He hung around with us. He'd let us ride his (INAUDIBLE). He gave us a ride on his bike like around the block and he was just a cool guy.
MORGAN: And he had children of his own. Did you ever see them?
SAMOYLICZ: No. I haven't seen his children.
MORGAN: Did you ever see -- sorry, yes, Annita?
LUGO: Yes. His children, I really haven't noticed them there since him and his wife, you know, separated many, many years ago. That was the last time I have ever even seen a woman over there or kids, other than when I seen that little girl in his window last fall.
MORGAN: And what we're being told by various people is that he had a pattern of turning up during the day in some kind of van or truck, and he would deliver, it would appear now, a large amount of McDonald's food, which clearly we would suspect now was intended for these women.
Did you ever see that? Did people ever talk about that? Because clearly if he's living on his own, that would be a strange thing to be doing.
LUGO: Yes. Yes. I definitely witnessed that and what brought that to my attention is that my daughter at the time was taking the school bus and it would pick her up in front of the house, and I would get upset, there was a couple of times in the winter where his bus was parked almost in front of our house or in that field right next to our house, if you notice. You know, the field next to it.
So he'd be -- he was blocking the driveway a lot and I had an understanding, so I started watching his movements and sure enough, every morning he had a bag of McDonald's. He'd park his bus there, leave it running for at least 45 minutes to an hour at a time, and he went in the house and came back out. Clockwork.
MORGAN: Faliceonna, in terms of the house itself, were you ever allowed inside it? Did you ever get into the house or the garden?
LOPEZ: We -- the closest I ever came to his house was to the door, and he had it cracked open and he gave us popsicles. It was like a couple of summers ago but that was it. He never let us go in his backyard. I think we attended his backyard once to help him put his little dogs away. But it wasn't even over his gate. It was like to his gate and that was it.
MORGAN: How do you feel, Nina, finally, about the revelation that he may be this absolute monster along with his brothers, and there were three young women not entirely dissimilar ages to you when they were taken, who have been kept in this dungeon, no other way to describe it, for so long?
SAMOYLICZ: Yes. It's sad to know that he lived so close and he was a friend to all of us, but then it's like -- we really feel we got like another bad guy off the street.
MORGAN: Well, listen, it's obviously been a huge shock to all of you. I'm very sorry that you've had to go through this. There can't be many things worse than discovering somebody you thought you knew so well, a neighbor, has turned allegedly to be a complete monster. But I thank you all for joining me.
LOPEZ: Thank you.
LUGO: Thank you.
MORGAN: Three young women held captive for nearly 10 years in what looked like an ordinary house. How could that happen?
Joining me now is Tito DeJesus, he's a friend of suspect Ariel Castro, who also knew the family of Gina DeJesus.
Welcome to you, Tito. Just to clarify for viewers, you have the same name as Gina DeJesus but you're not related at all, right?
DEJESUS: That I know of, no. I've been told that we might be very distant cousins, but I have never done a family tree to actually find that out. But I've known the family since I was a child, and basically my father knew the family since before I was born.
MORGAN: You have also known Ariel Castro for a long time. You've played in a band with him for a long time. You must be shocked by this. Was there anything -- well, tell me first of all about how you feel about the fact that he's been arrested.
DEJESUS: It was a shock to me. When I found out last night, I was actually watching, you know, live streaming on the Internet and it kept, you know, saying, Seymour Avenue and it was a Latino and when they finally said it was a school bus driver, and I knew who lived there and they panned the camera to his house, it was like I turned white.
My wife told me what's wrong, are you OK? I was like -- I was -- I was dumbfounded. I was -- I was in shock, I couldn't talk. My heart started beating really, really fast. I just couldn't believe it.
MORGAN: Did he never give any clue at all that things weren't quite right? That he may have been leading some strange other life you weren't privy to?
DEJUSUS: No. Never. He seemed like a normal guy to me. I've known him for like 20 years and we shared the stage many, many times. Many, many bands. He's been to my house many times to rehearse and we have spoken on the phone, and chit-chat about music and everything.
And that's one thing, we never spoke about his personal life. Some guys just don't like to mix their personal life with business, and pretty much I respect that. But he seemed like a normal guy. Never gave it any bad vibes about, you know, the stuff he was doing with these three women. Never.
MORGAN: Tito, I'm going to have to end it there. We're going to go live actually to a situation in Washington, where Jaycee Dugard, who was of course herself abducted -- she's appearing at an event with John Walsh, who I interviewed last night at length. It's the annual hope awards of the National Center For Misisng And Exploited Children in Washington. We'll just go live to this. This could be very interesting.
(BEGIN LIVE COVERAGE OF SPEECH)
JAYCEE DUGARD, KIDNAPPING VICTIM: Thank you. Thank you. That story is me. Just thank you for tonight. I want to say what an amazing time to be talking about hope, with everything that's happening. I want to thank the family advocate division team, especially (INAUDIBLE) and Marcia.
DUGARD: They have been amazing and wonderful, and I can't thank them enough. I feel like I have come full circle, and we are all finally together, celebrating the wonderful hope that you at NCMEC keep alive every day. I am so thankful for the team of people that have supported me throughout these last few years. I am so grateful to all of you. I can't say that it's been easy, but anything in worth life -- life worth doing is sometimes hard, like speaking.
DUGARD: I want to thank my mom for the hope she has always had for me, even when I was far away. To my sister, Shana, who - excuse me. To my sister, Shana, I want to say that although I wish she could be here tonight, I want to say how proud I am of her today and every day. I want to thank all my family members for their patience and unconditional love and support. And last of all, I would like all of us to remember to just ask yourself to care.
(END LIVE COVERAGE OF SPEECH)
MORGAN: Jaycee Dugard speaking live there Washington, receiving the Hope Award. And never has there been a more poignant day really for her to be doing that, given the discovery of three other young women who had been through exactly what she had been through.
Next, a fourth missing girl who vanished from the same area in Cleveland. Her fate remains a mystery. I'll talk to the family of Ashley Summers. Hoping this case could mean some news for them, too.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDRA RUIZ, GINA DEJESUS' AUNT: Got to give them space. We're overbearing. Give them space, guys. We will communicate with you guys. I promise. I promise that we will communicate with all of you guys. Okay?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Sandra Ruiz speaking just a few moments ago. She's the aunt of Gina DeJesus. CNN's Poppy Harlow is outside the DeJesus family home tonight where the guardian angels are patrolling. Poppy, what is the mood there? Obviously one of great joy that she's back, but also I would imagine a lot of concern about her wellbeing and what she's been through.
POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Piers. You're right, and that's exactly what this family is focused on. You just heard some of what Sandra Ruiz, she's the aunt of Gina DeJesus, Gina's mother's sister, what she had to say to us, the press, here. We heard from her earlier today, and she spoke with us again tonight. She said be patient. She said you will hear from Gina. She said you will hear from all of the girls when the time is right. But right now, we need to focus on Gina.
It has been, you know, 24 hours since they discovered that she is still alive and with them. They need to focus on that. She said interestingly, Piers, you will hear from her in one large space, and you will all be there. So that makes you wonder are they going to hold a press conference at some point in time.
I was with the family and at this house all day since early this morning. It was a place of a lot of happiness, joy, surprise, a bit of shock that they have found Gina now. They last saw her when she was 14 years old. Now she is 23 years old, Piers. So the scene here is -- the focus needs to be on this young woman now, 23-year-old Gina. But at the same time, they are all ecstatic. And they've had family, friends over here all day long.
MORGAN: Poppy, you spoke, I think, to Gina's older sister, Myra, who obviously has been talking to Gina. Did she give any indication of how Gina is?
HARLOW: She did, a very positive report. She was with Gina at the hospital all night last night. She was with her pretty much all day today until this evening. She said that Gina is in good spirits. Myra is nine years older than Gina, and it's interesting, I said well, she's a young woman now, right. And she said well, she still looks like my young sister that I knew nine years ago. So she doesn't look much different, frankly, Myra said, than she did when she last saw her.
I asked if they talked about the ordeal at all, did they discuss that last night. She said no. We're not focusing on that. The family is focusing on being with her sister, the parents with their daughter that they haven't seen in nine years. But she did report that she is in good spirits, and that they're focusing on being together as a family right now.
MORGAN: Poppy Harlow, thank you very much indeed.
Despite the joy of finding three kidnap victims alive, there's a fourth case that's still unsolved. Ashley Summers was 14 when she vanished in the same neighborhood in 2007. Joining me now, Ashley's sister Vicky and her aunts, Tina and Debbie. Another sister Janet Summers and best friend Erica Bennett are also here.
Welcome to you all. Let me start if I could with you, Tina. Obviously for your family, this must come as a huge shock and it must I guess give you some hope that you may be possibly able to find out what happened to Ashley. How do you feel? TINA SUMMERS, ASHLEY'S AUNT: Oh, I feel like I hope she does come back, and I hope that they do find her.
MORGAN: Do you feel that in some way, her disappearance is connected to the disappearance of these other three young women?
TINA SUMMERS: It seems like it would, you know. All the same neighborhood and you know, no sign of any of them.
MORGAN: Victoria, you're 16 now. You're Ashley's sister. So you would have been 10, I guess, when she disappeared. Have you ever given up hope as a family that she would be alive out there somewhere?
VICTORIA SUMMERS: I have never gave up hope. Got to keep pushing, regardless of what, like everything that happens. I mean, Amanda Berry and them came home safe. So, makes you push and hope more that she will come home one day, too.
MORGAN: What kind of person was your sister?
VICTORIA SUMMERS: She was outgoing, had a lot of friends. A different - you know, bringing a lot of friends home. She was known in school, everybody.
MORGAN: Let me turn to you, Debbie. You're Ashley's aunt. Clearly this is a huge news story, not just in Cleveland but in America. If anybody's out there who may have any information, I assume you would like them to go straight to the authorities.
DEBBIE SUMMERS, ASHLEY'S AUNT: Yes.
MORGAN: Do you feel, Debbie, that in your gut, that this is all connected, that the timing of when Ashley was taken, the age that she was, the area that she was taken, do you just feel collectively as a family this has to be connected?
DEBBIE SUMMERS: Yes, I do feel it's connected. They're all, like, the same area. So it has to be.
MORGAN: Tina -- yes, I mean, Tina, on the day that Ashley disappeared, was she in any trouble, any distress? Had you as a family been able to work out if there could have been any other reason why she would disappear?
TINA SUMMERS: No. She loved her family. She was a very friendly person. She would never, never run away. Without calling nobody. It's not her.
MORGAN: And have you had any leads at all in the last few years as to what may have happened to her?
TINA SUMMERS: We had a couple false ones. Beside that, no real ones.
MORGAN: Have you been contacted at all by the police since the discovery of these three other women yesterday?
TINA SUMMERS: No. My sister was, not me.
MORGAN: So your sister has been contacted. So the police have made contact with you as a family.
TINA SUMMERS: Yes.
MORGAN: So that would be Ashley's mother they rang, was it?
TINA SUMMERS: Um-hum.
MORGAN: And did the police give any suggestion that they believe that there may be a link here?
TINA SUMMERS: Not really. No.
MORGAN: Well, it must an incredibly shocking new development for you after the appalling disappearance of Ashley. Thank you so much, all of you, for sparing the time to come on the show and talk about it. And we just have to hope and pray that she, too, turns up, and that you as a family get Ashley back. I'm sure you would like nothing better than that, and we all wish you all the very best with that. Thank you for joining me.
TINA SUMMERS: Thank you.
MORGAN: Coming up, what happens next for these three young women? I will ask a doctor who knows the case very well.
MORGAN: The three young women who lost almost a decade of their lives in captivity clearly have a long and difficult road to recovery. My next guest knows something about that. She specializes in treating childhood trauma and rape. Dr. Lolita McDavid is a medical director of university at Rainbow Babies and Children's Hospital in Cleveland.
Before we start this, Doctor McDavid, I just want to play again the 911 tape that Amanda Berry made yesterday, which basically brought this drama to an end. I want to get your idea of her state of mind here and what you can detect from this. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BERRY: OK. Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Talk to the police when they get there.
BERRY: OK. Are they on their way right now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As soon as we get a car open.
BERRY: No, I need them now, before he gets back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're sending them, OK? Who's the guy you're -- who's the guy who went out?
BERRY: His name is Ariel Castro.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. How old is he?
BERRY: He's like 52.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.
BERRY: I'm Amanda Berry. I've been on the news for the last 10 years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. I got that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Dr. McDavid, obviously she was desperate, desperate to get out of that situation, hardly surprising now we know what it was. Did you read anything else into her voice, into her demeanor in that call?
DR. LOLITA MCDAVID, UNIVERSITY/RAINBOW BABIES AND CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL: Well, no, I think she was very frightened and I think she had a very small time window that she was working at. From what we understand, he left -- she had him leave to pick up some food for the child. And she knew she had a very small window of time that she could work with. And she was clearly very afraid.
The other thing that we know is that these girls had access -- or we think they had access to a TV, so they knew every year when their families were looking for them and celebrating the loss. They knew that this was going on.
MORGAN: You've had lots of experience of issues relating to this kind of situation, but nothing quite like this, I shouldn't imagine. One thing people keep asking today is, as these women got older -- they were there for 10 years -- could they not have collectively tried to get out? Would there have been some psychological hold that the owner of the house or the three brothers collectively had on them, either physically or mentally, that would have prevented them from doing that?
MCDAVID: Well, I think that's obvious that that's what happened. That happens. People are victimized and they do not feel that they have the ability. We don't know what they were told. We don't know if they were told if you leave, something's going to happen to your family. If you leave, we will track you down. We don't know. We know that with children, which is who I deal with, that people will say to them things like I'll kill your puppy or I'll hurt your mother or nobody will believe you; they'll think you ran away to be with me.
So we understand that they are victims. But they are very strong survivors. And one of the things that I'm concerned about is that in all of the therapy that they're going to need -- and they're going to need a lot of therapy -- that perhaps in the beginning they can start working on their therapy as a group, because they're really family to each other. If you think about it, they've been together eight, nine, 10 years, and they are all that they know. They are the family that this child knows. And so we have to approach it like that. Families would like for them to come back. And really I think what the families would like, and I can understand this, is they would like that 14-year-old girl who left for school that day to be the person who is going to walk through the door. But that's not what's going to happen.
MORGAN: No, of course it isn't. In terms of the little girl, we believe she's six years old, and clearly has been born into this hell and knows nothing else. She would require, I would imagine, pretty different treatment to the others because of her age?
MCDAVID: Well, very different, yes. And what we do with children, though, is not going to be a lot different than what we do with the adults. They are going to take their time. They will probably only have one or two interviews, what are called forensic interviews with them, because you don't want to retraumatize people. You don't want them to keep having to tell their story over and over again. So they will bring in someone who is very skilled at getting the initial story. And then from there, they are going to work on healing them.
Now, with children, we do a lot of play therapy and we allow them to act out how they feel. And therapists are very good at this. I'm a pediatrician. I'm not a psychiatrist. But therapists are very good with this. With the adults, they are going to have to wait and let them decide how much they want to divulge and deal with right now and what's for the future. But we know, and we've done some really good work in this country with people in the military, with PTSD -- we know that the trauma is going to be there for a long time.
MORGAN: Dr. McDavid, thank you very much indeed.
MCDAVID: Thank you.
MORGAN: Coming up, I'll ask my legal eagles what happens next to the Castro Brothers and how authorities will try to make their case. And did the police drop the ball in the investigation?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICARDO DEJESUS, GINA DEJESUS' BROTHER: It was disbelief. We were crying. We were shaking. We were just happy. I was very excited. I'm glad I'm able to see her. It was nine years. Nine long years. I'm just happy I was able to hug her and say you're finally home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAMSEY: Could I have -- bro, this is Cleveland. Since they haven't found that girl and I guess stopped looking for that girl, we figured that girl met her demise. So Berry didn't register with me until I was on the phone like, wait a minute, I thought this girl was dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP) MORGAN: Charles Ramsey, Cleveland's hometown hero, talking to Anderson Cooper earlier today. The three suspects in the case, Ariel, Pedro and Onil Castro, remain behind bars awaiting charges. What happens next? Joining me now, legal analyst Lisa Bloom of AVVO.com, also Ernie Allen, presidents and CEO of the International Center for Missing and Exploited Children, and attorney Mark Geragos, co-author of "Mistrial." Welcome to you all.
Let me start with you, Lisa, if I may. The one sense we're getting today, very, very conflicting reports coming out of a lot of neighbors and locals, who all claim in various ways to have been concerned about stuff they had seen at this house, some claiming to have gone further and notified the authorities and police and so on. Is there anything, from everything you've seen, which should raise serious concern about the way the police have handled or mishandled this investigation?
LISA BLOOM, AVVO.COM: Well, listen, in the Jaycee Dugard case, we know there was an exhaustive review of law enforcement, and rightly so. And there were conclusions that you know, law enforcement missed the signs. That's what needs to happen here.
If we have girls screaming from a house and law enforcement comes, knocks on the door, nobody answers, and that's the end of their investigation, according to some reports today, if those are the facts, law enforcement clearly dropped the ball. Now, we have to hear all sides before we reach a conclusion like that. But we've got three women and a little child in a house, in a heavily populated area near other houses. It seems hard to understand how these girls were not found sooner.
MORGAN: Mark Geragos, would you agree with that?
MARK GERAGOS, AUTHOR, "MISTRIAL": Yeah, absolutely. I think that the Jaycee Dugard investigation revealed all kinds of missed opportunities. I think Lisa is being charitable when she talks about it. It was almost like a Keystone Cops situation. Here, you take a look at that neighborhood there, this is a densely populated, houses sitting on top of one another.
It's hard to believe that somebody could be there for a decade and, as Lisa says, screaming, if that's the case, and nobody does any kind of further investigation, especially given this kind of neighborhood, where apparently these guys are coming and going as well. The whole thing, I -- there's got to be much more to this story. Given my experience in handling criminal cases, I can't believe that we're not going to find in the days ahead or the weeks ahead much more that unravels about this that blows your mind.
MORGAN: Ernie Allen, in terms of the psychology of all this, quite unusual, I would think, but you can tell me this, that the chief suspect here, Ariel Castro, who may have been working with his brothers in this monstrous activity, he seems to have been a perfectly normal member of the local society. People talk about him in a very normal, friendly way. Nothing raised any alarm bells. He drank with them. He partied with them. Nothing out of the ordinary whatsoever. Is that normal? ERNIE ALLEN, CENTER FOR MISSING AND EXPLOITED CHILDREN: Well, unfortunately, it is not atypical. These offenders tend to hide in plain sight. They fit in. And as a result, people around them in the community don't consider them suspicious. What average citizens want to see is aberrant, bizarre behavior that points you out as somebody who would do something evil. Mr. Castro clearly didn't do that.
MORGAN: Lisa, in terms of the geography of where these girls were snatched and where they were all found, all within three miles of each other, again, is that a typical scenario for pedophile behavior or for sex offenders generally? They try to keep it in the locality if they can?
BLOOM: Well, sure. In fact, most molestation of children happens within their own family. I mean, that's about 80 to 90 percent. When it is by a stranger, it's usually by somebody who either has observed the person from a distance or even has some connection with them and really isn't a stranger. And that's what this is sounding like now.
And by the way, I think we all have to give a huge round of applause to Charles Ramsey, the neighbor who says he heard screaming and thought it was domestic violence. That's a very important detail. Because a lot of people, if they think it's domestic violence, they don't want to get involved. They run the other way. And he went in to help. Hats off to him.
It's like that New York City, if you see something, say something. We need more of that in this country, and more people can be saved.
MORGAN: Yeah. He's a hero and a great character, too. He really did do his civic duty.
GERAGOS: He's a phenomenal character. I think his interview's already gone viral. He's -- the prosecutor, I guarantee you, when and if they go get that indictment, they will put him in front of the grand jury. They will want him in front of the grand jury. He's going to make a spectacular witness for the prosecution.
MORGAN: Absolutely. Let's take a short break. When we come back, I want to talk about Stockholm Syndrome and what you all think Amanda Berry, did she show signs of that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Great to have you back. I thought you were gone.
BERRY: No, I'm here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Extraordinary moment. Amanda Berry on the phone with her grandmother for the first time in almost a decade. Back now with my legal experts, Lisa Bloom, Ernie Allen and Mark Geragos. Let me turn to you again, Ernie Allen, about the so-called Stockholm Syndrome, where people who get into these situations, who are captured, kidnapped and held captive, can often become irrationally attached, emotionally, to their captor. Do you see any sign at the moment that this may have happened here? Because I don't think I do.
ALLEN: Well, I think certainly we see that Amanda Berry and Gina DeJesus and Michelle Knight are free because of Amanda Berry's actions, which is certainly not a sign of Stockholm Syndrome. What I think is most important to realize, people ask why don't these kids try to escape? Why don't they try to get away? Well, the human brain can only take so much trauma. These kids figure out how to survive. And that's what these young women did.
MORGAN: Mark Geragos, the three brothers, they have 36 hours, Cleveland police, to charge them. We're up to about 24 now. We are expecting charges to come, possibly of false imprisonment, kidnap and rape. We just don't know whether they will apply to all three brothers or one or two or whatever yet. But would you expect that to be the natural course of things tomorrow?
GERAGOS: Absolutely. They're not going to -- I don't think they've got time to get in front of a grand jury to indict. So they'll probably just file the charges tomorrow. My guess is that they will file more rather than less charges, because they're going to be seeking tantamount to no bail in a case like this. What they need to do, obviously, if you're the prosecution, is file as much as you can, basically a shotgun approach, and then you can sort it out later. You don't want any kind of a -- if you're the prosecutor, you don't want any kind of a bail on a case like this, or property to be put up or posted or anything of that nature.
MORGAN: Lisa Bloom, if it goes to trial, are these young women compelled to give evidence?
BLOOM: You know, I love that question, because I represent a lot of victims of sexual abuse. And yes, they do need to go in and testify. And they should go in and testify. You know why? Because these guys are going to get locked up for the rest of their lives. And this will be a very empowering experience.
I prepare young women like this to testify on a regular basis. And, yes, they're afraid. But it's such an empowering experience, ultimately, Piers, to go in there, to look him right in the eyes, to tell the jury what that piece of scum did to them. I'm sure that they were raped and beaten repeatedly. I know that they were tied up, allegedly, when they were rescued yesterday.
They should go in there and testify against them, get those guys locked up for the rest of their lives. And these women should walk out of the courtroom with their head held high, because they've done nothing wrong.
GERAGOS: Which is OK. But I think Piers' question was, are they compelled to? I don't know the answer in Ohio. I know in some jurisdictions, California being one, that you can't imprison a victim of sexual abuse if they refuse to testify. And I've had cases where the victims have just said I'm not going to do it, or the prosecutor has said I'm not going to put them through it.
BLOOM: But we should encourage them to testify. We should give them the emotional support that they need to go in and testify. We should make it easier for rape victims to testify.
GERAGOS: I understand all of that. But at the same time, there are some people who don't need to be retraumatized by going through that. And the law recognizes that by not incarcerating you, so to speak. If you go in there and subpoena somebody and they don't want to do it, and they're the victim, they shouldn't be retraumatized again by being thrown in jail.
BLOOM: I know. Of course not. But there's too many voices in our society that think that it's so traumatic for people to go in and testify. And I'm here to say that it's not. The only way to get rapists prosecuted and locked up and put away is for women like this to come forward and testify against them.
You know what, she sounded very strong to me on that 911 call, if I can jump to a conclusion based on a very short call. I think she's going to go in there and the other two are going to go in there and testify against them.
MORGAN: If I could just come back to you, Ernie, in a moment, I just want to play a little bit of new sound that we have from Amanda Berry that's just come into us. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The little girl is your baby?
BERRY: Yes, she's my daughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Just a short clip there of her confirming, apparently, to her grandmother that she has this daughter that was obviously born in captivity there. Ernie Allen, on that particular point, that is horribly complex issue, isn't it? Because it would assume -- you would have to assume that she has born this child out of brutal rape and beatings.
ALLEN: It is horribly complex. But this six-year-old is probably very important to her and is an integral part of her life. What has to happen from this point forward is she and the other victims need help. They need therapy. They basically proceed one day at a time. There is real resiliency in the human spirit and these kind of victims do get better. But it is something in which you can't restore those 10 lost years. You basically have to work toward achieving a kind of new normal.
MORGAN: Ernie Allen, thank you very much. Lisa Bloom, thank you very much. And Mark Geragos, thank you very much. That's all for us tonight. Anderson Cooper is now live in Cleveland and he goes next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)