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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Jodi Arias Found Guilty; Authorities Investigate Alleged Cleveland Kidnappings
Aired May 8, 2013 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. It's 10:00 here on the East Coast.
We have got a lot of breaking developments here in Cleveland tonight. There's a lot to report here in the story that has stunned the people who live along this street, Seymour Avenue.
There's also of course a verdict tonight in the Jodi Arias trial. She was found guilty, as you probably know, of first degree murder. She is speaking out as her lawyers prepare to fight for her life. Arias says she would rather die than serve a life sentence. You will from her tonight.
We begin though with all the breaking news here in Cleveland. Authorities have released the dispatch call that sent police to the house behind me over there at 2207 Seymour Avenue on Monday after that 911 call from Amanda Berry. This is the dispatch between police officers. Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a call-tick on the phone with a female who says her name is Amanda Berry and that she had been kidnapped 10 years ago. She is at this location now. It's a code one. The code is 0149, 0149.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Copy. Is she still on the line or she hung up?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She still is on the phone right now. She is saying that the male is Ariel Castro, 52-year-old Hispanic male that lives at 2207 Seymour and that he has been holding her here for 10 years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Others in the house?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Georgina DeJesus might be in this house also.
We found them. We found them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Send us EMS here. We have got a female conscious and breathing. She has got a young child with her. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Make it two. We also have a Michelle Knight in the house. I don't know if you want to look that up in the radio -- the system, 32 years old.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: You can hear some of the cries in the background in some of that audio.
Also tonight, new video just released that was shot today at the Cleveland Justice Center. It's of Ariel Castro, the owner of the house, who was charged today with four counts of kidnapping, three counts of rape. Police said they will not charge his brothers in the case. There are also a lot of new details tonight about what life was like for Amanda Berry, Gina DeJesus, and Michelle Knight inside that house for the last 10 years.
CNN's Pamela Brown joins me now.
What have you been hearing from sources?
PAMELA BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, we're hearing that Ariel Castro would test the girls, that over the span of that decade, that he would pretend to leave the house, but stick around and see if they attempt to flee.
And they did even attempt to escape, he would discipline them. We don't know the extent of how he disciplined them, but we know that he definitely did that to instill fear. On Monday, we're hearing from sources that Amanda Berry hit her breaking point, that somehow she knew Castro had left the house and she used that opening to escape.
COOPER: Is it known where they were kept in the house all this time?
BROWN: We know that they were kept in separate areas in the basement and that most of the time they weren't together, but that they still at times were able to rely on each other -- as one source said, that they were able to rely on each other for survival and that they were taken to the garage on a couple of occasions at least.
COOPER: Also, just anything about their psychological condition or what they went through?
BROWN: Well, it's interesting to note here, Anderson, as we heard the audio there, that Amanda Berry ran out of the house on Monday, but the other two women actually stayed in the house.
We don't know -- we don't know why, but it's safe to assume talking to experts here that they were fearful and that you have to think about it. This is a decade that they have been trapped in this house.
BROWN: All of a sudden, the door is open. You never know how you're going to react in that situation.
COOPER: And we're going to talk do some experts and one woman who has been through similar circumstances, held captive for a long period of time, about the psychological impact this can have and how quickly one can start to feel dependent on one's captor.
COOPER: Appreciate all the reporting from that, Pamela Brown.
Today also had some much needed joy too it, a lot of joy, as a matter of fact. Two of the rescued women, Gina DeJesus and Amanda Berry, actually went home. Late this morning, Amanda Berry arrived at her sister's home, escorted by authorities in a van that pulled up behind the house. Well-wishers from the neighborhood cheered from the street.
Berry was obviously missing for a decade. She gave birth, we now know, to a child while inside the house that was her prison. That child, a daughter, is now 6 years old. A few hours later, Gina DeJesus was greeted by a large and enthusiastic crowd outside the home that she has not been in since 2004. She gave a little thumbs up and was whisked inside the house.
Gina DeJesus was just 14 years old. She vanished. Now she's 23. Imagine what it was like stepping inside that door.
William Burgos is a friend of the DeJesus family. He was at their house when Gina came home today. Very pleased that he joins me now.
Thank you so much for being with us.
WILLIAM BURGOS, DEJESUS FAMILY FRIEND: Yes. How you doing?
COOPER: What was it like to be inside that house?
BURGOS: It was joy, happiness. Everybody was smiling. And it was like a normal life that she...
COOPER: Did you imagine this day would ever come?
BURGOS: Oh, my God. I didn't know it was going to be this far.
BURGOS: I was out there searching for her.
COOPER: You took part in the search and the vigils? BURGOS: I took part of the search, hang up fliers, helping Felix out. Felix is like my dad. I call him poppy. My God, I never -- it was like an angel that came out from the sky and brung her down.
COOPER: Right. I don't want to do anything that invades her privacy or the family's privacy, so use your judgment in what you want to say, but how did she seem?
BURGOS: She seemed happiness, happy.
COOPER: Happy to be home?
BURGOS: Happy to be home, ate ice cream. It's just people was all happy. Everybody was in shock.
COOPER: It's got to be just a reminder of how important it is to keep hope alive when -- in those dark days, when other people were giving up hope, you and other family members, you were out there.
BURGOS: I was out there hustling on the railroad tracks nine years, 10 years. I have been with Felix, keeping up, push, push, until the finish line.
COOPER: And he's a great guy.
COOPER: He kept this family together.
BURGOS: He kept the family together. And he's a fighter.
BURGOS: And Gina's a big girl. She's a lady. She's an angel.
BURGOS: And she's a fighter. She's stronger than you, and stronger than me.
COOPER: Yes. I don't doubt that to get through...
BURGOS: And I'm going to tell you one thing.
BURGOS: It's up to God. God is number one. It's Jesus Christ. Like, I go to church every day on Sundays and I pray for these people every day.
COOPER: Well, I know it's a family of strong faith as well. And that's really what helped them get through this. William, I appreciate you joining us. Thank you so much.
COOPER: ... best to everybody. Thank you.
BURGOS: Thank you.
COOPER: William Burgos.
Just ahead, we have new video of Ariel Castro from 2008. He was actually grilled by police. He was pulled over on a traffic stop. We will show you happened during the encounter. And would that have made a difference, had he actually been arrested, which could have been in that time?
Also ahead, just hours after she was found guilty of first degree murder, Jodi Arias is making some maybe surprising statement, what she is saying after lawyers are preparing to fight for her life. The question is, is she kind of playing a game with what she is saying? We will show it to you ahead.
COOPER: Welcome back.
The search of the home behind me over there is finished for now. The story, though, unfolding here broke open in West Cleveland on Monday, when Amanda Berry decided to try to break free with her daughter, screamed for help from the front porch of that house, of the house that had been her prison.
One of the men who heard and helped her escape was Charles Ramsey, a neighbor. Now, I talked to Charles Ramsey last night. He made it clear that he wasn't the first person to actually hear Berry's cries for help. He talked about another neighbor who he saw running across the street. That's what helped get his attention. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLES RAMSEY, NEIGHBOR: Heard that girl scream and saw him run across the street, and I went outside and wondered what he was doing. And Amanda say, I'm stuck in here. Help get me out.
So he's either don't know English that well or panicked. He just looked at me and was like, it's a girl. And that's all he did. So here I come with my half-eaten Big Mac. And I looked and I say, well, what's up?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, that other man was Angel Cordero, we now know. Here's what he has to say about what happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANGEL CORDERO, HELPED RESCUE AMANDA BERRY (through translator): I looked towards the front door of the house where the kidnapping was.
I saw that woman screaming, asking for help. She couldn't open the I walked over. I crossed the street and I went to ask her if the house was on fire. She told me, no, that I have been kidnapped for 10 years.
And so I pulled the door, but it was locked with a chain. And so I tried to open the door, but I couldn't. So I had to give it a few kicks. If you see, the house has two doors. She opened the inside door, but the glass door, the one on the outside, that's the one that had the chain and so when I tried to open the door, it had the chain and so I couldn't open it and I kicked it.
Several kicks underneath, and she managed to escape from underneath the door, and when she managed to escape from underneath the door, she remembered the little girl and she went back inside the house. She took the girl and came out. When she came out with the girl, I said let's get out of here, because if that guy arrives, he's going to kill us.
If he finds me here, he's going to kill me. He will kill you. She crossed the street and came to this lady's house and she used the phone.
If that woman didn't manage to come out to the front door, that kidnapping would have continued for years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, that was Angel Cordero. And you heard from Charles Ramsey, two neighbors who helped end the nightmare taking place in the house behind me.
Tonight, we're hearing for the first time Charles Ramsey's 911 call on Monday night. Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Cleveland 911. police, ambulance or fire?
RAMSEY: Yes. Hey, bro. I'm at 2207 Seymour, West 25th.
Hey, check this out. I just came from McDonald's, right? So, I'm on my porch eating my little food, right?
This broad is trying to break out the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) house next door to me. So, there's a bunch of people on the street right now and (EXPLETIVE DELETED). So, we're like, well, what's wrong, what's the problem? She's like, this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) kidnapped me and my daughter. And we in this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) She said her name was Linda Berry or some (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I don't know who the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) that is. I just move over here, bro.
911 OPERATOR: Sir, sir, sir, you have to calm down and slow down.
Is she still in the street?
RAMSEY: Seymour Avenue.
911 OPERATOR: Is she still in the street? Or where did she go?
RAMSEY: Yes, I'm looking at her. She right now -- she's calling you all. She's on the other phone.
911 OPERATOR: Is she black, white or Hispanic?
RAMSEY: She's white, but the baby look Hispanic.
911 OPERATOR: OK. What is she wearing?
RAMSEY: White tank top, light blue sweatpants, like a wife- beater.
911 OPERATOR: Do you know the address next door that she said she was in?
RAMSEY: Yes, 2207. I'm looking at it.
911 OPERATOR: OK. I thought that was your address. So, that house is...
RAMSEY: No, no. I'm smarter than that, bro.
I'm telling you where the crime was, not my house.
911 OPERATOR: OK, sir, we can't talk at the same time. Do you want to leave your name and your number?
RAMSEY: Charles Ramsey, R-A-M-S-E-Y.
911 OPERATOR: Are the people she said that did this, do you know if they are still in the house?
RAMSEY: I don't have a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) clue, bro. Like I said, I from McDonald's.
911 OPERATOR: Can you ask her if she needs an ambulance?
RAMSEY: You need an ambulance or what?
She need everything. She's in a panic, bro. I think she's been kidnapped. So, put yourself in her shoes.
911 OPERATOR: We will send the police out. (END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, today, Cleveland's police chief said Charles Ramsey deserves a reward. Again, a lot of people, a lot of good people here helping out.
Local leaders are praising them for their efforts, as they should be.
Earlier, I spoke to Cleveland's City Councilman Brian Cummins about what he's been hearing about what happened inside the -- that house.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: What else have you heard about the investigation? What can you say?
BRIAN CUMMINS, CLEVELAND CITY COUNCIL: Well, I just actually found out an hour ago that apparently a report of the incident has been leaked.
I have not been able to read the report. I don't have a copy of it. But from what I gather from talking to the source, there's some things that have been clarified in that report that we have actually been hearing from confidential sources within I guess I would call it the official -- some of the official employees in that that have dealt with the victims, particularly once they were saved and then in transport to the hospital.
So I think a lot of it deals with, you know, the conditions. I know the miscarriages have come up in the rumors and that it has apparently been confirmed that there were multiple miscarriages, that the physical duress that they were put under actually caused the abortion of children. It's pretty gruesome and pretty savage.
COOPER: Local media had been reporting that based on sources, local law enforcement sources they had yesterday. Are you -- where is that information coming from that you have now?
CUMMINS: I have been told by a source that I have that actually has a copy of the report...
CUMMINS: ... that some of this type of information, in fact, is contained within the report, very graphic and detailed information.
COOPER: I believe earlier in the day you had also said something about the birth of Amanda Berry's child, the circumstances of it.
CUMMINS: Well, we know -- we know from several sources that Michelle Knight was forced to assist with that birth, that it ostensibly occurred within a small pool of some sort, and that Ms. Knight was actually threatened with her life relative to the success of that birth.
COOPER: That if Amanda Berry's child was not born success -- born alive...
CUMMINS: That's what I understand, yes.
COOPER: ... that Michelle Knight would suffer?
CUMMINS: Yes, yes. So it's -- we -- this is our worst fears, you know, 24, 36 hours ago, relative to only imagining the horrors and the savagery of the mental and physical duress that they must have been put under.
COOPER: There has been -- you talk to people in the neighborhood and there is some criticism of what they say maybe have been missed opportunities. Do you find that or do you find that to be...
CUMMINS: No, I really question it.
We all question why it's taken this long to find them and for them to escape, et cetera. A few things I could point out on the physical aspects of this layout here, these two properties that are before that crime scene, they have been vacant for a long time.
COOPER: Right. And they're boarded up as well.
COOPER: So, actually, because when you first hear that this guy's windows were boarded up on the ground floor, it sounds very unusual, but when you see the two houses next to it are also boarded up, it sort of...
CUMMINS: Well, in terms of the complaints, we have a very robust police dispatch system.
When calls come in, they're logged in. Could there be human error? Sure. I'm confident in the police's abilities when they confirm that there has only been two or three calls from or about that address.
CUMMINS: The problem with that is, people may have called. If they didn't give the address, if they didn't give proper information, it would have been logged correctly. So we run into this all of the time when residents call about issues, but if they're not using commonsense protocol and communications, it won't get recorded.
COOPER: Councilman, I appreciate your time. Thank you very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Well, the Cleveland police chief said today that Ariel Castro waived his Miranda rights and has been talking with investigators, sharing details.
Here again is the new video of Ariel Castro today at the Cleveland Justice Center. He's facing four counts of kidnapping, three counts of rain. And it's important to reiterate his two brothers will not be charged in the case.
Ariel Castro has been stopped by the police in the past.
CNN's Martin Savidge has obtained video of him being grilled by an officer in 2008.
Martin joins me now.
It's fascinating to see this tape.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is pretty fascinating, of course, given in light of what we know now.
SAVIDGE: And let me give you a bit of background on it before we roll the tape.
And that is this, that this is dash-cam video. It's taken from what is supposed to be a routine traffic stop, would have been a routine traffic stop, except the person stopped is Ariel Castro. And then, of course, we know, at least according to authorities, at the time, he has got three women supposedly prisoner in his home.
OK. Take a look at the video. It's rolling video that comes from this police car. It's now June 12, 2008. It's about 8:30 in the evening, officer Jim Simone rolling along. He notices that a motorcycle whizzes past. You see it real quickly.
But what he notices and you don't in the video is that the motorcycle had a license plate that looked suspicious. So, he pulls into the gas station and pulls the man over.
And here's where it gets interesting, the conversation, how polite Castro seems to be, how nervous he seems to be. Well, there may be very good reason for that. Listen to the interaction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me see your driver's license. Let me see your driver's license, please.
ARIEL CASTRO, SUSPECT: What's wrong?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First off, your plate is improperly displayed. It has to be displayed left to right, not upside down or sideways. And the other question is, why are you riding it then? You don't have a helmet on. You don't have a license to operate it. You're subject to being arrested. Is that what you want?
CASTRO: No, sir, I don't.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SAVIDGE: Yes, he doesn't want that to happen because he's a school bus driver, which he will bring up and tell the officer because he's in a lot of trouble.
The officer could have arrested him, didn't, wrote him two tickets, and let him go. The last the officer saw of him was of Castro pushing his bike the mile to come home here to Seymour, where we know, at least according to authorities, the women were being held.
COOPER: And had he been arrested, unclear what would have happened to the women inside.
SAVIDGE: That's -- right. That's the haunting question for the officer today.
And I asked him about that. But he says, you know what, he's glad he let him go, for this reason, because had he taken Castro and locked him up, then what he thinks is that those women and now a newborn child at that time would have been in that home without food, without water, and no one knew that they were there.
You grew up in this area. You spent a lot of time there. You know the impact that the disappearance of these women had on this area.
SAVIDGE: Yes. I did.
I come back and forth, and I knew and followed this story, that the whole community was wrapped up. That police officer, Jim Simone there, he had many times gone out on searches for these women and here he was talking to the man who had them.
It was personally felt. It was deeply felt. It went on for years.
COOPER: It's also extraordinary, the connections between the Castro family and the DeJesus family, that Ariel -- excuse me -- Gina DeJesus was very best friends or very close friends with Ariel Castro's daughter.
SAVIDGE: And this brings up what everyone talks about, the missed opportunities. Were there missed opportunities?
They talked about law enforcement. Did law enforcement miss the connections there? Did families missed connections? Did a neighborhood somehow not quite see things... (CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Ariel Castro's daughter was on "America's Most Wanted" talking about the disappearance of her friend. She said she was the last one to actually see her before she disappeared.
SAVIDGE: And the uncle says that he was out there canvassing the streets trying to find the girls when his nephew apparently was...
COOPER: Yes. And the son wrote an article about the disappearance and interviewed Gina's mother. It's such a close-knit community in many, many ways.
Martin, appreciate the reporting.
Coming up, there's still so much we don't know about what these three women went through and won't know until they want to start to tell their stories. We wanted to take a close look, though, at the psychology behind the relationship that often develops between kidnappers and victims. We have all heard of DeJesus. We are going to hear from a forensic psychologist about how victims can actually end up bonding with their captors and how fast that can actually happen.
And we will talk to a woman who survived a hellish situation.
Also, Jodi Arias guilty on first degree murder charges, she spoke on camera right after the verdict. We will have that for you next.
COOPER: Some interesting statements tonight from Jodi Arias just moments after a jury found her guilty of first degree murder in the death of her ex-boyfriend, Travis Alexander.
Ted Rowlands has report.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you find the defendant as to count one, first degree murder, guilty?
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Jodi Arias had very little reaction in the courtroom to the guilty verdict. But minutes later, she did an interview with Phoenix television KSAZ. Arias says she understands why the jury didn't believe her because of the lies she originally told investigators. But she maintains that she didn't plan the murder of her ex-boyfriend, Travis Alexander.
JODI ARIAS, DEFENDANT: There was no premeditation on my part. I can see how things look that way. But I didn't expect the premeditation. I could see maybe the felony murder because of how the law is written, but I didn't -- the whole time, I was fairly confident I wouldn't get premeditation, because there was no premeditation. ROWLANDS: She also said she hopes the family of Travis Alexander will be able to find peace. In the courtroom, when the verdict was read, Alexander's sisters broke down with emotion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're happy. We'd rather have Travis back, but we can't have Travis back, so, with that said, this is a good day.
ROWLANDS: The guilty verdict means Jodi Arias is eligible for the death penalty. And Arias says she hopes that's exactly what her sentence will be.
ARIAS: Well, the worst outcome for me would be natural life. I would much rather die sooner than later. Longevity runs in my family. I'm pretty healthy. I don't smoke, and I would probably live a long time. So that's not something I'm looking forward to.
I said years ago that I would rather get death than life. And that still is true today. I believe death is the ultimate freedom. So I would rather just have my freedom as soon as I can get it.
COOPER: Well, Ted Rowlands joins me now live from Phoenix.
The same jury now immediately tomorrow starts to begin this next phase, correct, Ted?
ROWLANDS: Yes, Anderson, a two-pronged penalty phase.
First, they will have to decide whether in their mind the state of Arizona can move forward with the death penalty. If they say yes to that, then it will be up to these eight men and four women whether or not Jodi Arias will be sentenced to death.
COOPER: And, Ted, we don't know if Jodi Arias was trying to manipulate the jury by kind of using reverse psychology in her statements on that local TV report, but it seems like prison officials are at least taking them seriously.
ROWLANDS: Yes, after that interview was completed, Sheriff Joe Arpaio here in Maricopa County put her on suicide watch because of that last sound bite that you heard where she said she would rather get the death penalty than live her life in jail. So, for at least now, she's on suicide watch in the Maricopa County jail.
COOPER: All right, Ted Rowlands, appreciate the reporting.
Joining me now live, criminal defense attorney Mark Geragos, who is co-author of the book "Mistrial: An Inside Look at How the Criminal Justice System Works, and Sometimes Doesn't," also, former L.A. Deputy district attorney Marcia Clark, author of "Guilt By Degrees."
So, Mark, your reaction to this verdict. You have been saying all along the defense was focused on making sure Jodi Arias isn't given the death penalty. What happens now? MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think clearly all they were doing all along was trying to get the jury to not give her death.
And this is not unexpected. In fact, it's interesting. They had on the verdict form the ability to say premeditation, felony murder, or felony murder and premeditation. And they split seven to five on that.
I think that they're leaning right now towards not giving her death. But, frankly, I understand what she's saying. I mean, if you're in her position, you would rather have death. You -- what's the point of getting life without? You don't get all of the automatic appeals. You don't get any of the death penalty apparatus. It makes sense to me, but, ultimately, I think the verdict was completely expected.
COOPER: But Mark, you know, some are saying she was using reverse psychology, that she really wants life in prison. And so she thinks maybe the jury is going to try to punish her as harshly as possible, so they're going to give her what they think she doesn't want?
GERAGOS: Yes, well, I mean, you could have a -- kind of a double reverse psychology. I don't understand why she would want life without. She loses all kinds of benefits by -- by not being a death penalty -- sentenced to the death penalty.
Frankly, I've had these cases, and clients have always told me, "I'd rather have the death penalty than life without parole" for a variety of reasons. You get a lot more resources when you are sentenced to death.
It's part of the reason that the death penalty mind of apparatus or machinery is broken in America, and why this case was such an exaggerated form and kind of a hyperbolic example of the death penalty machinery being broken.
COOPER: Marcia, this next phase starts tomorrow. For the defense, is it all about just trying to find one juror who does not want to give her the death penalty?
CLARK: Well, at the very least, that, Anderson. They're going to go -- now they're moving into the aggravation phase where they're going to show the proof of cruelty, and that's what will justify a death penalty verdict.
Whether or not they can persuade 12 people, this will be the -- their crucible now. And of course, it does have to be unanimous. If they don't have a unanimous verdict, a unanimous jury saying that it was cruel, then they're not going to even wind up in the penalty phase. They will have to declare a mistrial and convene a new jury that will simply vote only on the penalty and whether the aggravating factor of cruelty has been shown.
COOPER: So Mark, how do you go about that as a defense attorney? How do you -- I mean, do you try to track down her third-grade teacher who says she did nice things back then?
GERAGOS: Yes, you put the family on and things like that. But they've already front-loaded this. This entire, you know, guilt phase of this case, I -- you know, watching from the outside, was designed to save her from the death penalty, in my opinion.
Putting her on the stand for that period of time. I mean, 30 years I've been doing this, I don't know if Marcia's seen something like this -- I've never seen a defendant in a death penalty case be on the stand for 17 or 18 days. It's just unheard of from my perspective.
So they -- I think they were always looking towards the penalty phase of this case. And, you know, I think they probably will prevail on that. If she does get the death penalty, there is kind of a perverse logic to it for her. Because from her standpoint, she gets kept under much better circumstances if she's sentenced to death than if she gets life without.
COOPER: Marcia, do you think she'll go back on the stand during this phase?
CLARK: You know, she can, Anderson. I would -- if I was her lawyer, I don't think I'd let her back up. Seventeen days. Mark is right about that. That's unprecedented. I've never heard of a defendant being on the stand for that length of time in a case like this.
But they could put her back on, if they think that she could do herself some good, show some remorse, show something that the jury has not seen. I don't think she can, and that's why I wouldn't put her on the stand. I don't want the jury sitting there and examining the fact that she can't show remorse, she seems cold-blooded.
And she may even pop out with something like, you know, "You guys didn't believe me, but I really didn't premeditate," which will only make the jury angry.
Well, I think it's a dicey move, but the family, I think that's a good move. Put the mother on; put the sister on. If they can present well, that usually helps to humanize the defendant.
GERAGOS: And I'll tell you, Anderson, I think the fact that she gave this interview to the local station tonight, I think that's calculated on her part. I think when she says, "I want death. I don't want to live. You know, I've got longevity in my genetic history, so to speak," I think that's calculated on her part.
CLARK: It certainly didn't seem to be something, though, that the lawyers wanted her to do.
CLARK: Yes, I think the lawyers...
COOPER: Have you seen that often, that giving -- giving an interview immediately after giving a conviction, have you seen that before, Marcia?
CLARK: Never. I have never heard of it, and I have to say -- right, Mark -- zero times.
CLARK: I'm surprised the sheriff's let her do it. That was what shocked me. What are you doing? What is going on? You remember the show "Chicago," guys? This is feeling like "Chicago" all over again. And now she's going to be famous and...
GERAGOS: Well, remember -- and Marcia, remember who the sheriff is in this county, who is -- you know, in my opinion a complete clown. So, you know, that's a whole different issue.
CLARK: We can go on that one for hours.
COOPER: Yes, let's do that another time. Mark Geragos, Marcia Clark, thank you for being on.
Up next, as we reported -- as we reported the top of the program, we have new details about two of the women held captive not fleeing when they had a chance. The question is the question that people always ask in this situation, is why didn't they run? If there were opportunities why not?
he reaction was not unusual. We have learned so much in recent years about what happens to people in captivity. You've all heard about Stockholm Syndrome. We'll talk about it. More details ahead.
COOPER: As crowds gathered outside the DeJesus family home this afternoon, waiting for Gina to return, they warmly greeted her with cheers and balloons. It was a day many had prayed for, obviously, and worked hard for. No doubt it was a day some thought they might never see. Gina's father, however, never, ever gave up hope.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm the one that kept this family together. I'm the one that had the heart and soul to fight to see this day. Because I knew my daughter was out there alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: As it often happens, a lot of people kind of wonder, you know, why couldn't the women try to leave, try to escape earlier?
We reported at the top of the program we learned today from a law-enforcement source with first-hand knowledge of the investigation that, when Amanda Berry made her getaway on Monday, Gina DeJesus and Michelle Knight could have run out with her but chose not to.
The decision to stay, according to this law-enforcement source, reflected their state of mind. Sources say they were brainwashed in a sense, fearful from their years in captivity. That reaction was not unusual. It even has a name. We're learning more and more about what can happen and how quickly it can happen. Relationships between a captor and captive.
Here's Randi Kaye.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Kidnapper and victim, a relationship that can be one of the strangest and strongest in human psychology. And it may be just what the three girls kidnapped in Ohio relied on to survive.
KRIS MOHANDIE, FORMER LAPD PSYCHOLOGIST: It's a very primitive, almost child-like attachment that develops. They come to know that their very survival is dependent upon keeping this person happy and satisfied.
KAYE: Forensic psychologist Kris Mohandie has studied cases involving what's called Stockholm Syndrome. He says kidnapping victims like those in Ohio bond with their captors in a matter of days.
Stockholm Syndrome got its name during this bank heist in Stockholm, Sweden, back in 1973. When the hostages were freed, they kissed and hugged their captors. Two refused to testify against them.
Perhaps the most famous case involving Stockholm Syndrome is Patty Hearst. The newspaper heiress was 19 when she was kidnapped in 1974. She was imprisoned and then sexually assaulted but later robbed a bank with her captors and remained on the run with them for more than a year.
PATTY HEARST, KIDNAPPING SURVIVOR: You come to a point where you believe any lie that your abductors have told you.
KAYE (on camera): Often in cases like these, people ask, why didn't they leave, why didn't they escape? They must have had the chance.
Our expert says the victim is usually so overwhelmed by the situation, they're unable to strategize. They feel powerless and fear if they anger their captor it could mean death.
(voice-over): For 18 years, Jaycee Dugard was held captive by a convicted sex offender, locked away in a secret back yard shed. He forced her to have two children with him.
MOHANDIE: It's a fake little family, but it's a necessary illusion that she has to have in order to live day to day.
KAYE: Dugard spoke about it with Diane Sawyer on ABC.
JAYCEE DUGARD, KIDNAPPING SURVIVOR: The mind manipulation. Plus the physical abuse I suffered in the beginning. There was no leaving.
KAYE: Elizabeth Smart, kidnapped from her Utah bedroom in 2002, never tried to run either. She was found after nine months.
Shawn Hornbeck, who vanished in 2002 in Missouri, stayed with his captor, too, for more than four years. Even though police say he was free to play outside, even sleep at a friend's house.
For all of these victims, escaping the monsters who took them isn't nearly as easy as it may seem.
Randi Kaye, CNN, Atlanta.
COOPER: Yes. Not easy at all.
Laura Cowan counsels victims of this type of violence. She knows what -- the experience first-hand. She was a victim herself, held captive for four years by a controlling, polygamist husband. She was beaten, tortured, mentally traumatized until she finally managed to escape.
She was held in a garage at one point for six months. I spoke to her earlier.
COOPER: Joining me now is Laura Cowan. She counsels victims of this type of violence. She knows first-hand what they've experienced; she was a victim herself, held captive for four years, by a controlling polygamist husband. Beaten, tortured, mentally traumatized until she managed to escape. She was put in a garage for six months.
Can you explain what makes somebody stay? Because that's the question so many people don't sometimes understand.
LAURA COWAN, WORKS WITH KIDNAPPING SURVIVORS: I know. So many people ask, why do women stay? And it's so many different reasons. It's not just one. I mean, its threats. I'm quite sure the women were threatened; I was threatened. He probably threatened them, the child. Even probably threatened family members if they left.
COOPER: Law-enforcement source says there were beatings he would do trial runs where he would leave, pretend to leave, if it looked like he tried to get out, he would surprise them and beat them?
COWAN: Exactly. And that happened to me several times where I was like, oh, yes, definitely. And you know, with victims like that, they go through a survivor mode. You know what I mean? I think it's called Stockholm Syndrome, where they kind of relate to the captor, you know, and try to please them. But really they're just trying to stay alive.
COOPER: It happens pretty quickly from what I understand. People sort of accept their new circumstances.
COWAN: Now, that's a psychological trauma. They do. And they see there's no hope. And they really go into a depressed mode. And posttraumatic stress disorder. So, you know, I'm surprised and I'm glad the girls made it out alive, but you know, a lot of women do not make it out of situations like this.
COOPER: Right. You finally, in the end, you started writing letters, writing letters, keeping really close notes about all the abuse that was happening to you. You finally slipped a note to -- the guy who was keeping you took you to the post office. You slipped a note to a postal worker.
COWAN: Exactly. I started writing those notes because I had a bad feeling, too, that I wasn't going to make it through. At least if someone found me they would find the notes on my body.
And yes, when he took me to the post office I was able to slip it to her. And she made eye contact with me, eye contact. I made eye contact with her. She knew something was wrong.
COOPER: And that's really critical for people who -- you know, as these stories emerge, we often hear people had suspicions. With Shawn Hornbeck, somebody even asked him, "Are you Shawn Hornbeck?" And he said no. And they didn't think anything further. If people have a suspicion, they should pick up a phone.
COWAN: People need to get involved. And thank God for Mr. Ramsey. He got involved; he helped them girls get out. He could have turned an ear, shut the door. They would have still been in there.
COOPER: And Amanda, that's the first one that ran across the street. So that's really critical. And getting -- you built a new life.
COOPER: Do you -- that process has got to take a long time.
COWAN: It's going to take a lot, even with the girls. Because we went through intense therapy, almost eight years of therapy, with me and my children. It took a long time before I could use my voice and come out and talk to other women. And once I did, I started helping and I started volunteering with different organizations. So that kind of was sort of a healing process for me.
COOPER: It's great to see you again.
COWAN: Thank you so much.
COOPER: Thank you. Laurie Cowan, amazing story.
Shawn Hornbeck, as I say, was abducted when he was 11 years old, held captive for four -- four and a half years before he was rescued. I'll speak with him about how he was able to put his life back together after his ordeal. Next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: There aren't many people who can grasp what the three rescued women in Cleveland are facing as they try to move forward with their lives after their ordeal. One of those people who can is Shawn Hornbeck. He was kidnapped in Missouri in 2002. He was 11 years old and was held captive for four years by a man who's now serving 74 life sentences in prison.
In 2007 Hornbeck was found in an apartment along with another abducted boy who had been missing for four days. And after they were found, the parents of Gina DeJesus were interviewed by a local television station. At the time, Gina had been missing for three years. Take a look what they said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a miracle that they found these two young boys. I cried almost all night.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That gives us -- all of the parents now -- more hope to stand up stronger and never give up that hope. Never, because you never know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, they never gave up hope. And today Gina is home with their family. I spoke to Shawn Hornbeck earlier, and before we talked I agreed not ask to him what he went through while he was in captivity out of respect for his privacy and respect for his recovery. I also talked with parents Pam and Greg Akers.
COOPER: Shawn, when you hear the family of Gina DeJesus talk about your rescue, that it gave them hope to be stronger, to never give up hope, what went through your mind?
SHAWN HORNBECK, KIDNAPPING SURVIVOR: It just shows that, you know, people are watching and -- and it shows that my story has really touched some people in ways that we could hope that it did, and it just makes me feel happy.
COOPER: Pam, how important is it, and how difficult is it to keep hope alive while your child is missing?
PAM AKERS, MOTHER OF SHAWN: For me it wasn't all that difficult. I always felt like I still had that connection to Shawn. I always told myself that, if he had passed on or if something bad had happened to him, I would know it, I would feel it. And I just never got that.
And then also, too, when you're in a situation like we were in, you either decide that you're going to be on the dark side or you're going to be on the light side. And I just chose to make sure that we stayed on the light side.
COOPER: Shawn, I've heard some people talk about how, when someone goes through something like this, an abduction of this nature, of this kind of length, that -- that some people may never recover. You say you don't believe that. Talk to me about that.
HORNBECK: Well, it really depends on the individual and how much support they get. I mean, from day one, my family was there for me, to let me know that I was safe and that I was OK, and I had nothing to worry about no more. And to me, that's what helped me out the most, was knowing that I had their support and everything was going to be OK, and I didn't need to burden myself with it.
COOPER: Craig, I remember in interviews after Shawn returned that you were saying that it was important to kind of let him talk to you in his own time. Is that something you would recommend the parents of these young women, that the family members of these young members, that the peppering with questions is not the way to go about this?
CRAIG AKERS, FATHER OF SHAWN: No, absolutely not. Try to refrain from discussing anything related to the case. Our feeling is, that's just going to perhaps make them withdraw more, because if they're not ready to talk about it, they may not even want to be around you, because they're afraid that you're going to bring up something they're uncomfortable with.
When they reach the point where they're ready to talk about it, they're going to let you know. They're going to talk about it. You know, one day they're going to walk up to you and say, you know, "I'm sure you have some questions, and you know, if you want -- if you want to sit down and talk about it, we can." You know, that's one of the things that happened with us.
And you know, we really cautioned everyone -- friends, family, even the media -- not to throw out all those questions. We know everybody's curious and everybody wants answers, but now is not the time. Answers will come; there's no rush. It's been ten years. You know, we don't need to learn all these details tomorrow, maybe never. Only when they're comfortable talking about it should they come out with it.
COOPER: And how are things now, Shawn? How is your life now?
HORNBECK: My life now is actually pretty fantastic. And you know, I work a 40-hour-a-week job. You know, just your standard 21- year-old. Got my bills that I pay, and nothing real special.
P. AKERS: He says that he's nothing special. But, you know, in our eyes, and I'm sure in a million other people's eyes he is special. You know, I do -- I am very proud of what he has accomplished since he has been home. And you know, that's one reason why we're doing all these interviews, is to let other victims out there know that there is life after this. That you can go on. You can feel that love again. You can feel that trust.
And then for the families that are still out there of missing children. It gives them hope that their child may be gone for a year, two, four, ten, you just never know, but they can also, too, come home. COOPER: There is light at the end of the tunnel for some families out there. Pam, Shawn and Craig, I appreciate talking to you. Thank you so much for taking the time.
P. AKERS: Thank you.
C. AKERS: Thank you, Anderson.
COOPER: It's hard to imagine the mental torture that parents go through when their children are missing for years. In 2003, Shawn Hornbeck's parents went on "The Montel Williams Show" to try to get information from the self-professed psychic, Sylvia Brown. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SYLVIA BROWN, PSYCHIC: Here we go again with the wooded -- you know, the wooded areas. Southwest of you.
P. AKERS: Is there any landmarks around?
BROWN: Yes, strangely enough, there are two jagged boulders which look really misplaced, because everything is trees and then all of a sudden you've got these stupid boulders sitting there.
C. AKERS: And he can be found there?
BROWN: He's near the boulders.
P. AKERS: Is he still with us?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: She said he was dead. Years ago, Amanda Berry's mother also turned to Sylvia Brown on "The Montel Williams Show," desperate for any information about her daughter. And again, Brown told the mother that her missing child was dead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you don't think I'll ever see her again?
BROWN: Yes, in heaven.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, thankfully for both families, we know that Sylvia Brown was wrong. She released a statement today saying, "For more than 50 years as a spiritual psychic and guide, when called upon to help authorities with missing person cases, or to help families with questions about their loved ones, I have been more right than wrong. If ever there was a time to be grateful and relieved for being mistaken, this is that time."
She could have put out a statement saying, "I have no shame whatsoever."
We'll be right back.
COOPER: That does it for us. Thanks for watching.