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Guilty Verdict In Jodi Arias Trial

Aired May 8, 2013 - 16:00   ET


ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good afternoon. I'm Jake Tapper. This is THE LEAD.

You're looking at a live picture right now of the Maricopa County Courthouse in Phoenix, Arizona. Jurors have reached a verdict in the Jodi Arias murder case. We are expecting that verdict to be read at 4:30 p.m. Eastern, 1:30 Pacific. And you will see it live right here on CNN.

We already know that Jodi Arias killed her on-again/off-again boyfriend Travis Alexander back in 2008. That is not in dispute. What we're waiting to hear a half-hour from here is what the jury will or will not convict her on.

Jurors began weighing the case against Arias on Friday. On the table are charges of first degree murder, second degree murder, and manslaughter. If convicted of first degree murder Arias could get the death penalty, but she could also get life in prison without parole or life in prison with the eligibility of parole after 25 years.

Of course, she could also be found not guilty. Prosecutors painted Arias as a serial liar and scorned ex-lover who killed Travis Alexander in a jealous rage, while the defense portrayed Alexander as an abusive, controlling, sexual deviant who pushed Arias to the edge.

Arias says she killed her ex in self-defense. At least that is her story now. She initially offered police several different versions of what happened the night Alexander was killed. First, she denied having been there. Then she blamed the attack on home invaders. Eventually, she said she and Alexander had been in the middle of a kinky encounter in the shower when she dropped his shower, and he launched into a violent rage and she says that is when she shot Alexander in the face and stabbed him nearly 30 times.

Again, at 4:30 p.m. Eastern, you will hear the verdict in the Jodi Arias trial read live right here on CNN.

Let's get to "CNN NEWSROOM" anchor Ashleigh Banfield outside the courthouse.

Ashleigh, you have been covering the story from the very beginning. For those of us who have not, walk us through this case. It seemed like this trial was going to go on forever. What made it last so long? ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It may have seemed like it was going on forever, but it was about four months, about four-and-a- half months of trial testimony, Jake.

And, listen, this is a death penalty case. They don't get more serious than this. And there was a great deal of evidence for this prosecution to lay out. They also were responding to about 19 days of trial testimony on the stand from Jodi Arias, herself, in all of this. And so there was a great deal of cross-examination and redirect examination and re-cross and re-direct.

It seemed to go on forever, but, again, there was so much evidence and when you're talking about the death penalty, you should leave no stone unturned, and that may be the reason that it seemed fairly lengthy. When it comes to the deliberation times in this particular case, we're talking about 15 hours and five minutes by the deliberation clock.

By many accounts, that is not, not a lengthy deliberation in a four-and-a-half month long case. What we do know now though is that after four days of deliberations, this panel, a jury of her peers, eight men and four women, have finally reached a conclusion on what they think about Jodi Arias's version of events in that courtroom.

Here is what has been so fascinating. The number of people across this country and the number of people in Phoenix, Arizona, at the Maricopa County Superior Courthouse has been overwhelming in terms of the level of interest. Much like the Casey Anthony case, this has become a dramatic saga.

And, today, upon the announcement that a verdict had been reached, hundreds of people have descended upon this courthouse. My colleague Ted Rowlands is standing by amongst many of those who come down to await this verdict, many you can see behind him, in fact many he has been able to speak with. It is remarkable, but at the same time they have followed it for a long time.

They likely want to be part of the final resolution, Ted.

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And they're hooked. There's no doubt about it, Ashleigh.

And you take a look out here and you can see all of the people here. Yes, there are a lot of cameras here as well because of the interest in this case. It has been televised live throughout. People have watched it at home, on their computers, at work.

One of the people that has been here pretty much the entire time in the courtroom is Michael Enchi (ph).

You broke down and started crying. Why are you so emotional?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, it's been a long -- I have been here for four months.

And I just want to see it over for the family. If this isn't a first degree verdict, like I said, I'm leaving this country. I'm done.

ROWLANDS: This isn't your family. Why are you so attached to this case? What is it about it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, I came here. I didn't realize that it was, you know, the so-called Jodi Arias trial. I had no idea.

And I came here out of curiosity. And I have been able to meet the family and sit and talk with them. And they're such sweet, sweet people. And to realize what this woman did to this man is unbelievable.

ROWLANDS: We're waiting, Jake, for the family to arrive here at the courthouse. They -- we expect that they will be coming up right along here.

This is Lisa. She came scurrying down as soon as you had -- you heard that there was a verdict.

You had the day off. You work for the city of Mesa.


ROWLANDS: It's Chandler?

Why are you here at the courthouse? What is it about this case that has attracted you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, I really think that it's because it's a local event or a local trial, and I'm just -- I want to see justice for Travis. That's the bottom line. I just want to see justice for Travis.

ROWLANDS: David is a prison guard.

You are around folks that are incarcerated on a daily basis, and you're off. You have a day off and you come down here. You are hooked to this trial as well. And you have got your family hooked. Your sister in Minneapolis is hooked on it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Yes. My mom is here from Minneapolis. She wanted to come down and actually experience it in firsthand and in person.

ROWLANDS: Why? What is it about this?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, it's just...

ROWLANDS: Like you should have better things to do, huh?


It's just something that's just been from day one, everybody has -- all the lies, the stories, how it unraveled and all the stories, everything that just comes about it, we all wanted to see how this whole story and movie has turned out at the very end, how it wraps up. ROWLANDS: A movie.

And, Jake, and that's it, that there are people who are absolutely obsessed with this trial. They have been from the beginning. And this is the crescendo that they have been waiting for. And we will find out in less than a half-hour what this jury decides.

TAPPER: All right, Ted.

Thank you so much.

I want to ask Ashleigh Banfield a question about Jodi Arias specifically.

If you're just tuning in, we're waiting for a verdict to be read in the Jodi Arias murder trial. We are expecting that verdict to be read in roughly 24 minutes at the Maricopa County Courthouse, at the Maricopa County Courthouse in Phoenix, Arizona.

Ashleigh Banfield, who has been covering this from the very beginning, there is something very 21st century about Jodi Arias, very meta. She from the very beginning has seemed very aware of her -- the interest that there might be in her, in how she is being perceived in the presence of a camera.

And, Ashleigh -- and I believe that is Jeff Toobin next to you.

BANFIELD: It is indeed.

TAPPER: I would love for you guys to talk about that a little bit.

BANFIELD: Yes. All right. So, there's a couple of things.

And Jeff and I have had these discussions regularly about this.

The demeanor of Jodi Arias. And, look, you can say what you will about why this case has drawn the attention that it has, but for a lot of people, the fact pattern in this case has been sensational. But the behavior of the defendant has been sensational in itself, in that she has had a -- as some have described, a particular smugness and that she has lied. That is never a good thing for a jury.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: She has lied so extravagantly and so many different ways and at so many different times, that is almost as much a part of this case as the underlying murder.

There's also the issue of her physical transformation. You look at the photographs of her during her relationship with the victim in this case, and she had blonde hair. She would dress provocatively. She now has this very mousy brown hair. She has the world's most librarian-like pair of glasses that she wears in court.

You know, she has presented herself to the jury in a very particular way that we will start to learn today whether the jury buys or it doesn't buy.

BANFIELD: And I'll tell you something else. Look, she also has had a particular demeanor where she's had an answer for everything. Oftentimes, you will see a defendant answer a question to the attorney who is delivering the question.

In Jodi Arias's case, call it coaching or call it being savvy, she has taken that question and she has turned her attention to the jury and she has addressed the jury with every one of her questions. Sometimes, that works, and sometimes it seems too calculating and too methodical and too strategic.

And I am not sure what this jury is going to decide in this particular case, but she has had an answer for everything and she has had a lot to answer for.

Jeff, oftentimes, you have to explain away coincidences. Not often do you have to explain away a string of coincidences like this.

TOOBIN: Right.

Well, one of her answers that has sort of served as kind of an all-purpose answer in various different ways to the answer of why did you lie, the answer is, I was so traumatized by the whole situation.


TOOBIN: She has said that in various different ways.

The problem with that is that in addition to being traumatized, there is a lot of evidence in this case that suggests a great deal of calculation, even planning. There is the question of -- you know, what my sort of favorite odd fact about this case is why did she buy gasoline in canisters and bring it in her car, suggesting that -- suggesting that she didn't want to buy gasoline here in Arizona because she didn't want a record that she was here.

That's calculation, if the jury believes that's why she did it. It is certainly a very odd thing to buy canisters of gasoline in California and bring them to Arizona.

BANFIELD: And I just want to reset what we're doing here, Jeff Toobin.

As you see on the right-hand side of your television screen, there are hundreds of people who have turned out at the Maricopa County Superior Courthouse here in Phoenix, downtown Phoenix, Arizona. You can probably hear the helicopters overhead as well. They showed up about 15 minutes ago as we await in 20 minutes the live reading of the verdict in the Jodi Arias murder case.

Jeff Toobin has made a very compelling synopsis of what some of the most damaging evidence is for the defense in this case. And then I think one of the other issues that is so critical is the defense has had very little corroboration. It has strictly been on the word of Jodi Arias, her version of what happened, her version that she is a battered woman, her version that she almost conveniently cannot remember why she did certain things after the killing of Travis Alexander.

The problem is you have an admitted liar, a not once, twice, but thrice admitted liar who now is relying entirely on her own testimony to save her from the most serious of charges.

I want to just quickly bring in Sunny Hostin, who is watching as well. She's been watching this case. She's a former federal prosecutor, like Jeffrey Toobin is as well. She is in Philadelphia live.

You and I have talked at length about the weight of the evidence for both the defense and the prosecution, and I expect as a prosecutor it cannot be lost on you, Sunny Hostin, that the defense is relying on the good faith that the jury might put in the word of Jodi Arias.


We did hear some expert testimony about post-traumatic stress disorder and about Jodi Arias's state of mind. And I think that in some respects juries do like that expert testimony. But the problem is all of the experts are also dependent on Jodi Arias's version of events here. And they are asking, the defense is asking this jury to believe her.

And I think that is a difficult thing, especially considering that she lied not once, not twice, but several times to legal authorities, to law enforcement authorities.

And one other thing that I want to mention, Ashleigh, that I find really fascinating about this case is that jurors were allowed to ask these questions. And they asked hundreds of questions to Jodi Arias. And while she was able to answer many of them, what I found very compelling for the prosecution was that Jodi Arias basically said, I don't remember anything that happened from the time when I started killing Travis Alexander, although she could remember almost everything else.

And I don't know how the jury sort of gets past that.

BANFIELD: It is without question what they call a big hurdle sometimes. That is a difficult case.

But, listen, we have seen cases, all of us together. Sunny and Jeff and I have covered cases together where it may have seemed like an open-and-shut case, only to have a completely different verdict delivered by a jury.

TOOBIN: We have perhaps not even talked about the key fact in this case, which is the incredible violence of the murder (AUDIO GAP) stab wounds, a slit throat, and gunshot.

That is very hard to square with self-defense. Now, it is possible (AUDIO GAP) it is even harder to square with self-defense when you have the defendant, herself, saying, well, I don't remember anything about it, other than it was self-defense.

That is a lot of wounds. That is a lot of an attack for self- defense.

BANFIELD: The amount of time that you have spent in a courtroom compared to the amount of time that you have seen analysis on television, it is so critical to lay out for our viewers the difference.

If you are a jury panel and you are sitting through the hours upon hours of live testimony, the boring part, the sidebars, all of that, you could create a formula for how different it is for a juror to sit through a trial than for someone who watches it on television. And maybe that's what leads to our surprise sometimes when we see a verdict that perhaps we don't agree with in TV land.

TOOBIN: That's true. There is no substitute for seeing every single minute of testimony as the jury does, of course.

And there is a scenario here where the defense has presented a story of a battered woman, of someone who snapped in reaction to bad treatment from her -- from her boyfriend. If the jury believes that, that is a recipe for perhaps manslaughter.

Frankly, I don't see how there is any recipe for a flat-out acquittal, but this case has fundamentally for the defense been about saving Jodi Arias' life. Anything short of the death penalty will be viewed by the defense here as a success. And I think acquittal vs. guilt, that is not really what it's about at this point.

The death penalty is really what this case is about.

TAPPER: So, Jeff, Jake Tapper here in Washington.

There's obviously a lot of unique factors dealing with this trial. First of all, Arizona is a state that allows cameras in the courtroom. And if you're just tuning in we're expecting a jury verdict to be read in about 15 minutes in the case against Jodi Arias -- accused of killing, murdering her boyfriend back in 2008.

Jeff, the cameras in the courtroom make this case interesting. The fact that in Arizona, as Sunny pointed out, jurors can ask questions. That makes it interesting.

But put this in a broader context for us. What is the significance of the Jodi Arias trial in either in the legal world or in the media world?

TOOBIN: I think it's really about the death penalty. I think this case is about what it takes to get executed in this country. The trial has been very sensational.

And, look, we haven't mentioned it yet, but there was no point in pretending otherwise. There's been a lot in this trial about Jodi Arias' sex life with the victim in this case. There have been tapes of phone sex between them. Obviously that played a big part. But, you know, the death penalty is in a weird moment in the United States right now. It is legal but it is declining. You know, there have only been 34 executions in Arizona since 1976 when the death penalty came back in. There are only 127 people on death row in Arizona. There are only three women on death row in Arizona.

It is unusual for someone like Jodi Arias even to face the death penalty. And I think that's what really catapulted this case into the public consciousness, which was could someone who looks like Jodi Arias actually be executed in the United States? We'll soon know whether that is even a possibility.

BANFIELD: I think there was an execution in Texas within the last 24 hours in fact and there have been several executions in 2013 of those in Texas and not one of them so far has been a woman.

Jake, this is a woman facing the death penalty. We don't see these cases very often. There are a lot of death penalty cases across this country and usually, I hate to say this, they seem somewhat garden variety. They're bad guys with drug histories or robberies and other kinds of felonies that are included as well. They never really seemed to be the Jodi Arias type.

So, when you have a mysterious set of circumstances and facts, it does, you know, it does bring about this national interest. And I think that Casey Anthony wasn't different. That was a death penalty case as well. A young and beautiful girl who you just otherwise couldn't imagine could perpetrate the kinds of crimes that she was accused of.

TAPPER: All right. Ashleigh, I want to go right now to Ted Rowlands who's in front of the Maricopa County courthouse talking to some of the hundreds of spectators, some of them Arizonans, some of them tourists, who have flocked to the courthouse with the news that in roughly 12 minutes there is going to be a verdict read in the Jodi Arias murder trial.

Ted, walk us through why some of the people there are there.

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, as you can imagine it's because they're hooked. They are hooked on this story and they have been for months. It's gone on so long as you were just talking to Ashleigh about.

Here's a great example. This is Don from Miami. He is a prosecutor on vacation, been watching this trial. You said it's one for the books.

You're on vacation. What are you doing here at a courthouse? You work at a courthouse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes yeah. We work at a courthouse. I've been practicing law for about 30 years, prosecuting about 20 years. I've been following the trial from Miami.

It is just amazing. As a prosecutor I know that every time you go to trial you're rolling a dice even though you may think you have all the evidence. We saw what happened with Casey Anthony's trial.

But I said earlier, this is one for the books. Watching the news, they said they have a verdict, I'm going down there. I want to hear this when the verdict comes out.

ROWLANDS: Yes, Don is an example of a lot of folks from around the country on their vacations, during baseball spring training, a lot of people who are spending one day at the ballpark and one day here at the courthouse.

A couple things, Jake, we want to tell you about. Kirk Nurmi the defense attorney for Jodi Arias in the courthouse, he says he is, quote, "optimistic". Three of the -- or two of the three jurors that were removed from this case are also here. They've been brought in and they will be in the courtroom to hear this verdict as it is read.

TAPPER: Ted, walk us through why some of those jurors were removed from the case.

ROWLANDS: The first, juror number five, was removed because of what was told to us via sources of something incomplete on her juror questionnaire which came up during the trial. They had a conference with the judge in her chambers. This is a juror, and court watchers will tell you, I was in the courtroom for many days, I'll tell you, she took notes like nobody else. She was very dialed into it.

The feeling was she was pro-prosecution. When she was bounced, the Alexander family was visibly upset. They were in that hearing in the judge's chambers and when they came out two of the sisters were crying because they felt like this juror had been thrown off for the wrong reasons. We don't know specifically on the record why but that was a lot of drama in this case.

Then, the other two, one juror was sick one day and they just had to move the case, move it forward, so they removed him. And then the third juror to be removed had a DUI and after that incident, he also was removed. But he is back along with the sick juror in the courtroom right now, so they will be watching with everybody else what their fellow jurors have decided.

TAPPER: All right. Ted, stand by. We'll be back with you in a second.

If you're just tuning in we expect a verdict in the Jodi Arias trial in about 10 minutes. I want to now go in Phoenix, Arizona, to Ashleigh Banfield and Jeffrey Toobin if their camera -- if their satellite system is up and running.

Ashleigh and Jeff, are you there? There you go. Jake, I want to --

BANFIELD: Yes. It's a little frenetic out here. Yes.

TAPPER: Yes, we're having some satellite issues but you're OK now. Obviously we know there are several different options in terms of what the jury could decide. In addition to not guilty, there are a whole bunch of other charges, first-degree murder and second-degree murder.

Explain to us, Jeffrey, if you would, start with you, what happens if they come with a second-degree murder guilty verdict? What is the significance of that? What would that mean in terms of potential jail time?

TOOBIN: Well, then the case is over. Then there is no more deliberations. That's just the end of the jury's responsibility.

She could get -- and, Ashleigh, you'll correct me if I'm wrong -- is if she could get life in prison for second-degree murder, she cannot get the death penalty for second-degree murder. So the real distinction here is between first-degree murder and everything else.


BANFIELD: Let me jump in for a moment. I have a statute. It is different in every state.


BANFIELD: So, sometimes you can have wide variances. Here in Arizona the statute allows in second-degree murder for a sentence of no less than ten years but no more than 22. I've been in jurisdictions where they do allow life imprisonment but not without parole.


BANFIELD: But second-degree murder could give her no less than 10, up to 22. And then one level down on the lesser included is manslaughter, no less than seven would be the sentence in that case and no more than 21 -- seven to 21 for manslaughter. Ten to 22 for second degree.

TAPPER: We're only minutes away from the verdict in the Jodi Arias trial which will come live here on CNN from the Maricopa County courthouse in Phoenix, Arizona. We expect that verdict to be read in seven or eight minutes.

As you know, Arizona is one of the few states in the nation that allows cameras in the courtroom. And the jurors reading the verdict is no exception in that process.

I am going to now go to Paul Callan who is a CNN legal analyst. I want to ask him what -- is Paul there?


TAPPER: What are you going to be looking for in seven minutes when the verdict is read? What most interests you?

CALLAN: Well, the first thing we look at is the expression on the jurors' faces as they enter the courtroom. Traditionally, they don't look directly at the defendant if they have convicted a defendant. That doesn't always happen. But that's kind of what I've seen in some -- a lot of murder cases that I've been involved with.

The second thing that I think about is when I look at this case, Jake, is this case has gone in so strong, it was such a relentless prosecution by Juan Martinez, the prosecutor, that it was like watching a woman get run over by a truck repeatedly.

The evidence against Jodi Arias is so strong. And her defense is such a -- really, a strange defense that the jury would have to accept.

So I think most people will be stunned if there is an acquittal in the case. And, frankly, on the issue of whether it's first degree or second-degree murder, the thing that I'm looking at carefully there is that a lot of people think first-degree murder requires a lot of advanced planning. You know, you got to sit down and plan it out and certainly there is evidence of that in this case.

But the law doesn't require a whole lot of time. You can commit first-degree murder and plan a murder even in the matter of a few minutes. You could be sitting in the living room and plan on going into the bathroom to kill somebody.

So the jury has a lot of range there if they want to come down with first-degree murder.

The second thing to remember is this. There's a lot of talk about first degree and the death penalty. She doesn't get the death penalty automatically if she is convicted of first-degree murder. There is a second part to this trial where the sentence will be determined.

So just because it's a first degree conviction will not automatically mean death penalty in the case.

TAPPER: All right, legal analyst Paul Callan.

I want to know, to go back right now to Ashleigh Banfield who is in Phoenix, Arizona -- Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: So, Jake, let me give you a bit of a scene setter as to what is going on right now. We're only five minutes from the announcement of when this verdict is supposed to come down. Right now, I can tell you that the Arias family, Jodi's mother, and her friends and supporters, have been brought into the courtroom and also tell you that those on the other side of this case, Travis Alexander's family, has also been escorted to a witness room very close by.

And the prosecutor in this case, Juan Martinez, was seen going into that room presumably to talk to them a little bit about bracing them for whatever this decision could be. This is the time when these kinds of victims' families need an enormous amount of comfort and they need to be told as painful as it can be that decisions can go either ways. And they just need to hear that another time. And presumably that's what Juan Martinez is doing right now.

There is one person who is no stranger to what it is like just moments before a very serious verdict comes down and that's Mark Geragos, who has defended Scott Peterson and a number of high profile clients and sat through many of these very gut-wrenching moments that lead up to the reading of these verdicts.

Mark, I want you to weigh in if you could. As we stand in front of the Maricopa County superior courthouse awaiting this verdict what it is like for you and your client as you sit and wait for this decision.

MARK GERAGOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, there's absolutely nothing like it. I mean, it's -- as soon as you finished that closing argument, you realize you've let it go to the jurors. They have all the control. I think in a case like this, the fact that they were out for at least two days and part of a third is at least you have some hope.

But I think the defense really was -- ultimately, a win here for the defense would have been a hung jury and a hung jury not between an acquittal and guilt but between degrees, either a first and second or second and manslaughter. The fact that they came back or the jury has come back with a verdict I think portends a first or second degree. I don't think there is any way they're going to come back on a manslaughter. We'll know in a couple minutes and you can replay the tape if I'm wrong.

This battle was fought I think for the defense on setting the ground or setting the table so to speak for the penalty phase. If it's a first degree they're hoping that the jury is going to come back and give life and not death.

BANFIELD: So, I just want to alert for our viewers, Mark, if you'd give me a moment the image on the right-hand lower side of your screen is the live camera inside the courtroom and that is the great seal of the state of Arizona. It's right behind the bench where the judge takes her seat in this courtroom.

And typically the way this goes is the pool camera that are set to be live is asked to stay on the great seal until the proceedings get under way and then the cameras can widen out and show you the things I've been telling you are going on behind the purview of this lens. And that is that the players are taking their seats.

Jodi Arias, who has been in a holding cell for most of the day in the courthouse behind me, under guard which is not unusual, as you await a verdict, a defendant must be on hand in case there are any kinds of questions, in case there is anything that needs to be adjudicated in open court, anything that needs to be read out, questions asked, announcements made, the defendant has the right to be present and thus needs to be close by. She has been in a holding cell and at this point will likely be very close to coming out and being seated at defense table beside her attorney, once again in civilian clothing.

During trial, you do not see, in most jurisdiction, perhaps not all, I will bring Jeff Toobin in on this, he's much better at this than I am, you do not see them in their orange jump suit. You see them as civilians.

TOOBIN: Almost never.

BANFIELD: Almost never. Almost never.

TOOBIN: Unless there is some reason per the defendant is disruptive or something. It's considered so prejudicial in front of the jury that most judges insist the defendant wear street clothes.

BANFIELD: However, that changes dramatically upon the rendering of a guilty verdict. And then for proceedings afterwards and there are many that could follow this verdict as well. The myriad different ways this courtroom could actually proceed involve a series of mini trials. It is an odd situation.

Again, I think this will be a surprise to many of our viewers that in Arizona, there is an aggravation phase that first needs one decision by the jurors of a cruelty and then an aggravators versus mitigators phase. So, there will be other things this jury will face, likely Jodi Arias if she is involved in that phase, it would be in an orange jump suit or whatever the color of this jurisdiction.

But just setting the scene once again on the right-hand side of your screen, the people who have turned out for this verdict that is now set to be read only about a minute away, listen, they announce times but they're not always spot on.

TOOBIN: I would be very surprised if this starts right at 1:30. This trial like most trials works a little bit more improvisationally, and particularly for a moment like this. You're going to have a lot of people who want to be in the courtroom. You're going to have a lot of people who want to get settled. Everybody is, of course, incredibly nervous, tense, and it could take a while.