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PIERS MORGAN LIVE
Missing Girls Escaped from House of Horror; Ariel Castro Charged with Kidnapping and Rape; Joyous Family Reunion; Jody Arias Found Guilty
Aired May 8, 2013 - 23:59 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PIERS MORGAN, CNN SHOW ANCHOR: This is "Piers Morgan Live"." Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. It is midnight on the East Coast. It is 9:00 p.m. on the West Coast.
Tonight, two huge stories are dominating America. Ariel Castro charged with kidnapping and raping Amanda Berry, Gina Dejesus and Michelle Knight. His brothers, O'Neil and Pedro, will face no charges of the case. Listen to this dramatic police dispatch recording of the moment of the rescue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POLICEMAN: This might be for real. We found them. We found them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: And, in Phoenix, sex, lies, and murder. Jodi Arias guilty. Police say she is on suicide watch. And, tonight, she said she would rather get a death penalty than life in prison. Listen to what she told the Fox affiliate in Phoenix.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED FOR FIRST-DEGREE MURDER: I said years ago that I'd rather get death than life and that still is true today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: I will talk to a friend of Jodi Arias and the man that she killed. Meanwhile, in Cleveland, joyous family reunion as two of the victims, Michelle Knight's mother still hasn't seen her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARBARA KNIGHT, MICHELLE KNIGHT'S MOTHER: I'm just hoping that my daughter let me see her because I love her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Police state that the three young women left the house of horror only twice in a decade, and watched their parents on T.V. at vigils. They say when Amanda Berry escaped on Monday, the other two victims chose not to run. And, that Ariel Castro, seen here in custody, would test them by pretending to leave, and then beating them if they made a move to escape.
They also called a case against Ariel Castro a "Slam Dunk." Let's go now to CNN's Poppy Harlow, is live for us in Cleveland. Poppy, a lot of more dramatic details emerging all through the day and night on this case and what can you tell me about the latest?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPPY HARLOW, CNN NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Some very disturbing details, Piers, coming out just in the last hours. So, CNN being told by a police source, it is familiar with this investigation that Amanda Berry, one of those three captive girls had the baby that is now her 6-year-old child in the home of Arial Castro; but, that baby was delivered by Michelle Knight.
That is what these police source says. That source says the Castro grabbed Michelle Knight and told her to deliver the baby -- to deliver Amanda's baby. We are also told that that baby was born, Piers, in a plastic tub to contain the amniotic fluids of the pregnancy. Just pinning a picture here of what a disturbing scene.
We are also told that when the baby was born -- when Amanda's baby was born the baby stopped breathing, that everyone around started screaming. And, Castro said if that baby dies, I am going to kill you. Also an important thing that I want to tell you here, Piers, is that that source tells us, quote, "What is most incredible here is that this girl who knew nothing about childbirth was able to deliver a baby that is now a healthy 6-year-old girl." So, this paints a chaotic and panicked and very, very, picture, Piers.
MORGAN: Absolutely extraordinary details. Ariel Castro has obviously been charged with rape and kidnap charges. He is due to appear in court tomorrow, but his two brothers have not had any child charges filed against them. Innocence belief now from the investigating authorities that they are completely innocent. How can we read into this from the information today?
HARLOW: That is absolutely the case, Piers. Innocent police believe the brothers are in terms of these crimes of alleged rape and kidnapping. The police say they found, quote, "No facts to link O'Neil and Pedro Castro to the kidnappings. However, both brothers will appear in municipal court in Cleveland tomorrow.
We are told on misdemeanour charges and other related incidents. But, this is very important because, you know, the photos of these two men -- the two brothers have been up along side Arial's, you know, this whole time the police have arrested them thinking that they had enough probable cause to arrest them related to these charges against Ariel Castro. And, now they are saying they have no facts to link them to each other.
What I also think is very important here that we are told is that the police believe that the brothers were in the dark about this. And, this shows us just how --how private this all was. The fact that the brothers of Castro, the police are now saying had no idea that this was going on. It shows just how separated Castro in his entire life that he is alleged to have had was from even his own family members.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Poppy Harlow, live in Cleveland tonight. Thank you very much, indeed. Those three young women were missing for nearly a decade, but their families never gave up hope. Listen to Amanda Berry's cousin today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TASHEENA MITCHELL, AMANDA BERRY'S COUSIN: Horrible. I mean you always want to keep hope, but after so many years goes by, you lose a little bit but in the back of your mind, you still keep it. I mean like Jaycee Dugard, I think is her name, I mean went -- was missing for 18 years, and they found her. And, you know -- so, when you hear stories like that, that keeps your hope alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: I want to bring in now Karen McHenry who is a program manager for Homeless Youth Programs in Bellefaire, Cleveland. Karen, so many people are horrified by the details of this case, cannot believe that three young women can be kidnapped and then held in this kind of dungeon for ten years without anybody knowing anything about them, or even if they are alive. What is your explanation if you like for how this could have happen and how nobody could have even had a clue that they were there?
KAREN MCHENRY, PROGRAM MANAGER FOR HOMELESS YOUTH PROGRAM: You know, I really don't know how they couldn't have a clue that they were there, but we know that when victims -- we work at Bellefaire with victims of sexual trafficking and abuse and neglect, and when they are under the control of someone that is so aggressive and abusing them physically and sexually, they develop a learned helplessness, and a learned helplessness.
And, this is because of their abuse. So, because they were living in ultimate fear, many of the victims we worked with every day at Bellefaire are living in fear, have a very unpredictable lives and never sure when they are going to get fed or taken care of and nurture.
MORGAN: I mean what is clearly emerging now about this man Ariel Castro is that he ruled with utter fear that he would even do tests, where he would pretend to leave the house, and if these girls tried to escape, he would beat them up.
Appalling details of multiple pregnancies involving one of the girls Michelle Knight and of course, this moment when Amanda Berry gave birth in a tub and they were all warned if the baby died, they would all die. I mean utterly appalling. And is this the kind of thing that the sex traffickers in your experience do to these young women to ensure they stay in captivity?
MCHENRY: Yes, they do a great deal of manipulating and they really mess with -- they really -- with their minds -- they make them very un-empowered and they put a great deal of fear over them, whether they are going to hurt themselves or hurt their family members or hurt somebody else.
So, it is crucial for these victims. And -- I mean I guess the one thing that we would like to celebrate here in Cleveland is that with this horror that these women have survived, and we just are all marvelled that they have survived. And, it is just that their spirits are so resilient, and that is really what we want to focus on is that they are survivors.
MORGAN: Absolutely. Karen McHenry, thank you very much indeed for joining me. Now, I want to bring in Juan Perez. He is a neighbor of Ariel Castro. He lived just two doors down from the house where these three young women were held captive. Thank you for joining me, Mr. Perez.
You were for the last 22 years, a neighbour of Ariel Castro, living just two doors down, but you knew nothing about this appalling other life he was apparently leading. What is your reaction to this discovery?
JUAN PEREZ, ARIEL CASTRO'S NEIGHBOR: I was very just -- I didn't know how I felt. I was very excited, you know, that the girls, you know -- I was very excited that the girls were found, but at the same time I felt guilt.
MORGAN: I mean, you knew Ariel Castro very well. You helped refurbish his front porch a few summers ago. What kind of man is he?
PEREZ: I mean I knew him for 22 years since I was 5 years old. He seemed like a great man. He is very helpful. You know, he helped me changed my tire, you know, once when I was 7 years old. He would ask how school was. When I was a teenager, he asked about relationships.
He just seemed like a really nice guy in the neighborhood. Always, you know, talking to people of their outside. If we are having a get together, he was a part of it. Always said hi, even if he was on the corner and he saw you. He had a great mask. Everyone thought he was a nice guy.
MORGAN: Juan, it does seem extraordinary but even somebody living as closely as you did to him for that long and knowing him so well, didn't have even an inkling of what was going on there given how depraved we now know it was. Did you have any concerns over the last ten years that something may not be entirely right about this man's house?
PEREZ: Well, Mr. Morgan to be honest, I thought the house is vacant the last couple of years. I thought maybe he had another property and you know he just came by time to time to check up on it a few times a week. He would only be here for what I saw ten minutes to an hour at a time.
I just thought he was checking on the property. He has not sold it yet. Next door -- the next two houses next door are vacant, boarded up. I saw that his house had the windows covered up. I just thought -- I thought it was vacant. I never saw him stay -- I mean no, I never saw anything to be honest, nothing.
MORGAN: Absolutely extraordinary. Juan Perez, it must be a huge shock to you. I appreciate your joining me, thank you very much.
PEREZ: Thank you.
MORGAN: The other big story tonight Jodi Arias verdict. The jury found her guilty of first-degree murder in the death of her ex- boyfriend and now she will decide -- they decide if she should get death penalty. Now, CNN's Casey Wian is in Phoenix for the very latest. Casey, no great surprise, I don't think that she was found guilty. The big question now, will she get the death penalty, and that may be decided tomorrow.
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It could be decided as early as tomorrow, Piers, but more likely what I am hearing it may take a couple of day days. The prosecution has to prove that there were aggravating circumstances. That is called the aggravation phase that is going to begin at 1:00 local time in the afternoon.
And, what that means is that they have to prove, persuade all of the jurors that this murder was committed with extreme cruelty. If they are able to persuade the jury, get unanimous vote on that, then it moves to the actual death penalty phase of the trial. And, that is where the defense attorneys will present mitigating factors, mitigating evidence as to why Jodi Arias' life should be spared.
If the jury does not find that there was extreme cruelty in this case, then what happens is it goes directly to the judge, she has two options. She can either sentence Jodi Arias to 25 years to life or life without the possibility of release at any future time, Piers.
MORGAN: Casey, this is amazing interview that she gave afterwards when she said she would prefer to have the death penalty, something she did say before. But, now that she knows she is being found guilty, she would rather die than face life imprisonment. What is your make of that?
WIAN: A lot of people are scratching their heads. A lot of attorneys are scratching their heads, wondering why she gave this interview. Why authorities here allowed the interview to take place. She did say that she preferred death as opposed to a life sentence in prison.
She also sent out a tweet through a friend who has been tweeting on Jodi Arias's behalf throughout the trial a couple of days ago saying that she had considered suicide. That is something that she has also mentioned in interviews previously.
So, as a result of that, the Maricopa County Sheriff's office has put her on a suicide watch. They say they are not going to be allowing anymore interviews as long as that suicide watch is in effect. Piers.
MORGAN: Casey Wian, thank you very much indeed. Coming up next, much more on the two big breaking stories of the Arias Verdict and the kidnapping and rape charges for Ariel Castro, accused of keeping three young women prisoner for ten years. And, later, John Walsh, who was thanked personally by one of the families today. That is after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: State of Arizona versus Jodi Anne Arias, Verdict Count 1: "We the jury dully empanelled and sworn in the above entitled action upon our oaths do find the defendant as to count 1, first-degree murder guilty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Jodi Arias found guilty of first-degree murder. She said she would prefer to die sooner than later. Should she get the death penalty or not? With me now is Elisha Schabel. She is Travis's friend and former roommate, and Gus Searcy, who worked with both Jodi Arias and Travis. Welcome to you both. Let me start with you Gus Searcy. What is your reaction to the verdict today?
GUS SEARCY, WORKED WITH JODI AND TRAVIS: Well, I mean there was no question that she had done it. So, the fact that they found her guilty isn't such a surprise. What I would be disappointed on is if they did actually do the death penalty, because there was culpability involved here, even though he didn't deserve to die, he was partially responsible for her snapping the way she did.
MORGAN: But, when you say partly responsible, I mean, no one surely is responsible for somebody shooting and stabbing them repeatedly and murdering them in that brutal fashion. Why do you say that?
SEARCY: I agree with that part. But, again, she was being abused by him. We know that. We know it from the e-mails back and forth between other parties that have shown up in court. We know it from my own personal experience, which I testified to.
So, there was a culpability involved of driving her -- you know go away, come here, all of that kind of thing. Again, I'm not saying she deserved to die or he deserved to die. But, I can see why it happened. And, once the murder start -- once the fight started, again, I think she just snapped and lost it, like they say she did. So --
MORGAN: Let me bring in Elisha. Because, I can see you are shaking your head, Elisha. You clearly don't agree with this. What is your reaction to what happened?
ELISHA SCHABEL, TRAVIS'S FRIEND AND ROOMMATE: Yes, yes, yes. I do not agree with what Gus has to say. I don't appreciate his comments at all. He did not abuse Jodi Arias. And, I want that to be clear. He did not abuse anyone. He was the kindest man that you will ever meet. And, it is a tragedy that he is gone.
MORGAN: And, Elisha, do you think that she should get the death penalty?
SCHABEL: You know, I have forgiven her a long time ago. And, you know, whether I -- think she deserves the death penalty or not, isn't up to me. I think solitary confinement actually would be worse for her because she likes the spotlight. And, you know, either way, she did it. She murdered my friend.
We can't bring him back. And it is a true tragedy, because he did not deserve to die in the manner in which he did. Even if he did abuse Jodi, which he didn't, no man on this earth deserves to die the way that he did.
MORGAN: And I've got to say, I mean as anyone who watched the case -- sorry. Elisha, finish what you wanted to say.
SCHABEL: Go ahead. Go ahead. I'm done, go ahead.
MORGAN: Gus Searcy, friends of Travis' do feel very strongly that he didn't abuse Jodi Arias. But even if he did, as I said earlier, nothing justifies what she did. And, what people were put off by was her almost psychopathic lying and misleading and strange behavior generally throughout the trial, particularly when she gave evidence. You didn't get an impression of somebody even remotely normal. What do you think of her mental state?
SEARCY: Well, here's what you've got to look at. Obviously, she did something horrific, no question. I think at some point she realizes, "Oh, my god. I have done something horrific. What do I do now?"
If you go back in her past history, you know, she was a nice girl. She lived with a guy, took care of his son. There were no past criminal records, nothing. All of a sudden she meets Travis and everything goes south for both parties. There's no winner in this. It's completely tragic.
He did not deserve to die. I agree with that. But, I also understand the things that he did. He wasn't this pure virginous guy that tried portrayed him to be, and the combination of the two together --
SCHABEL: That doesn't matter.
SEARCY: Became a star-cross problem. Again, not a reason for him to die. I have said that, OK? But, I don't think she deserves to die either. I think she is -- should be found guilty. She was. But, I don't believe she should be getting the death penalty. The problem is --
MORGAN: Well, the irony -- if I may jump in. Well, the irony, of course, is that she has now come out herself after the conviction and said she would prefer the death penalty, which, as Elisha said, may just be her way of avoiding a lifetime in prison, which would be the last thing she would want.
But, Elisha and Gus, thank you both very much indeed. I want to bring in now, Vinnie Politan. He is a host of "In Session," and HLN's "Making It In America." Vinnie, we have reached the crashing point of this extraordinary case. What is your reaction to what happened in court today. VINNIE POLITAN, CNN ANCHOR: First, I want to react to what Gus Searcy just said, completely mischaracterizing the evidence and the verdict that was rendered by eight men and four women today in Maricopa County.
They dismissed this allegation that she snapped. Premeditated murder, a plan that was hatched in Yreka, California, days beforehand, weeks beforehand, in the way she got the gun, got the gas cans and then made her way to Mesa in the middle of the night and then covered it up and forged an alibi.
So, there was no snapping here, Piers. That's the first thing. I don't want any of your viewers to be misled by what Gus Searcy just said on your air because it was incorrect, wrong, and the jury said so.
MORGAN: OK. Well, let me just go straight to Gus who has been listening to that. We kept him on to see what you said. Gus, what is your reaction to what Vinnie just said?
SEARCY: Well, based on what the jury saw and heard, this is what they have done. But, one of the things I have contended all along is there is a lot of truth here that never made it to the jury. There is a lot of people that never came forward with information that may have changed some of that opinion. But, you know, it is what it is. He still didn't deserve to die. I agree with that. But, again, there was --
POLITAN: She brought the gun. She brought the knife. She killed him!
SEARCY: Then why not shoot him more than once? She had more one bullet in the gun. She could have shot him lots of time.
POLITAN: Why not? Well, because it's Jodi Arias. Because she is obsessed with him. She wanted to be his last sexual partner. That's what's going on in this mind of herself.
SEARCY: There is no evidence of that whatsoever. If you're going to say some sexual things like that, I can --
POLITAN: Did you see the photos, Gus? --
SEARCY: I can make that stuff too.
POLITAN: Gus, did you see the photos? Did you see the photographs?
SEARCY: I've seen the photos and I've listened to you.
POLITAN: Did you see what they did beforehand? Did you see the photos after what she did?
SEARCY: Yes, she could have shot him in his sleep. If she was trying to kill him, she would have shot him in his sleep. She wouldn't have got in a fight with him. No one answer that. POLITAN: She didn't -- No, this isn't a fight. A fight is when two people were going after each other. This was an attack, Gus, a premeditated attack. And, the jury said so.
SEARCY: Why not shoot him in his sleep? If it is premeditated, shoot him and shoot him several times. That didn't happen.
POLITAN: We could do a lot of why not do this, why not do that.
SEARCY: That's right.
POLITAN: She had a plan. It's not your plan, Gus. It was her plan. She was --
SEARCY: It's not my plan.
POLITAN: It's not your plan. Right. It was her plan. She is the one fatally attracted and obsessed with this man. Whatever is going on in her mind, it resulted to death of --
SEARCY: And he was fatally attracted to her too.
POLITAN: Oh, come on.
SEARCY: He called her.
POLITAN: Come on.
SEARCY: Oh, come on.
MORGAN: Well, let me jump in.
POLITAN: There's only one person --
MORGAN: Gentlemen. Let me jump in. Let me ask you, Vinnie. Should she get, Jodi Arias, the death penalty that she now says that she wants?
POLITAN: Well, she wants it. She said it before the trial. She now -- that's the first thing she utters after the trial. So, why won't the eight men and four women of Maricopa County give her what she wants?
MORGAN: Vinnie Politan and Gus Searcy --
SEARCY: The answer is they shouldn't be knowing about it.
MORGAN: Well, they find out tomorrow, obviously.
MORGAN: Gentlemen, it's an emotive subject. I understand why you both feel the way you do. I have to leave it there. Thank you both very much for joining me. Coming up, extraordinary video of Ariel Castro in an early brush with the law. I'll ask John Walsh from "America's Most Wanted" what he thinks of it. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDRA RUIZ, GINA DEJESUS' AUNT: We would like to thank everyone, especially the missing and exploiting children, John Walsh from "America's Most Wanted."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: That's the aunt of Gina Dejesus thanking John Walsh for helping families find missing children. The former host of "America's Most Wanted." John, I want you to take a look at this before we start, a video of Ariel Castro in an early brush with the law in June, 2008. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POLICE OFFICER: Let me see your driver's license.
ARIEL CASTRO, CHARGED FOR KIDNAPPING AND RAPE: Excuse me?
POLICE OFFICER: Let me see your driver's license, please.
CASTRO: What's wrong?
POLICE OFFICER: First off, your plate is improperly displayed. It has to be displayed left to right, not upside down or sideways.
CASTRO: Oh, OK. I thought they told me the plate forward.
POLICE OFFICER: The law says they have to be able to read them from behind.
CASTRO: I just got -- I just it out, so --
POLICE OFFICER: Let me see your motorcycle endorsement.
CASTRO: That I don't have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: I suppose what struck me watching that, John, was how remarkably calm he is, given that one false move there, and the whole pack of cards falls down. The police could get to his house, and everything would be uncovered. What was your take of it?
JOHN WALSH, HOST OF "AMERICAS MOST WANTED": Because he's a sociopath. It appears he has no. He is not afraid of doing these things. But this begs a bigger question. In 2005, he beat his wife, who is now dead. He beat her so badly, dislocated both her shoulders, broke her nose, knocked a tooth out of her mouth, and she had swelling of the brain and a blood clot. And, because her lawyer didn't show up in court, the police didn't arrest him. He had those women in the house. How the hell are you not arrested for beating your wife so badly like that? Piers -- MORGAN: It is --
WALSH: It is mind boggling.
MORGAN: It is mind-boggling. And, what is also remarkable about your probing into all this is back in 2005, you appeared on my predecessor, "Larry King" show, and you cited them. You believe that there was a direct link between Amanda and Gina's disappearances. Let's watch this clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, TV TALK SHOW HOST/COMEDIAN: Who are we looking for here?
WALSH: No. We don't know. She still hasn't been found, this little girl.
KING: OK. This is a missing girl.
WALSH: Yes. Missing 14-year-old girl.
KING: Do you presume? What do you do with stuff like this?
WALSH: Well, there's another little girl, you know, missing in that six blocks from Gina DeJesus. So, the cops say they are not related. I say they are related. I mean, come on. You've got one 14-year-old girl and then another girl down the street six blocks away. They haven't found either girl. And, they have no suspects.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: I mean, you put all this together, John. What you were saying there very publicly on CNN, that the beatings that he had had administered to his wife, which was well documented, other incidents we're aware of, other claims by neighbors that they had notified authorities of suspicious activity, which have been denied by the police. But, they still insist that they're correct. You put it all together, and you've got a bit of a mess by the Cleveland police, to put it mildly, haven't you?
WALSH: You know, Piers, I am the biggest supporter of law enforcement. This morning at our National Center for missing and exploited congressional breakfast, we gave out awards to cops who had saved children, broke child pornography rings that were torturing 6- month-old babies, videoing it and sending it around the world.
Cops do a great job. But, I had my problems back then saying that these are absolutely related, and now my theory was that they got grabbed the same way. And, now they're finding out that little Gina, her best friend was Arlene Castro.
And, the day that this creep allegedly got her, Arlene and Gina were together. And, Arlene needed to borrow $0.50 cents from Gina to call her parent to see if she could stay over at their house. And, so Gina had $0.50 cents, gives it to her friend, Arlene Castro, calls her parents and asks if she can stay overnight with Gina, and her parents say, "No."
Gina does not have the bus money to take the bus home and walks 30 blocks and guess who grabs her. I believe Ariel knew that she was walking home, just like he grabbed Amanda, just like he grabbed Michelle Knight, and he grabbed little Gina DeJesus, because he knew her. His daughter was her best friend. He was obsessed --
MORGAN: Right. I was going to say, just to clarify, that Arlene Castro is Ariel Castro's daughter.
MORGAN: And, so the families were inextricably linked in this way.
MORGAN: Again, again, you have to say, where were the police? You know, they would have been surely tracking any friends of the family and then tracking for any domestic violence incidents that may be on record. It doesn't seem to me a very complex trail if the police were doing their job correctly.
And, I'm with you. I'm a huge supporter of the police. But, when you put together also all of the appalling errors in the Cleveland strangler investigation, none of this looks good for Cleveland police generally, does it?
WALSH: Well, let me say this too, Piers. Why I went on "Larry King," because I was so upset that they weren't linking the two girls, and Amanda Berry's mother reached out to me and said, "She has been listed as a run-away. I know, Mr. Walsh, that 'America's Most Wanted' will help me. I know that she wasn't a run-away. I can't convince police this."
And, you know, I worked for three years to get the amber alert passed through congress before they made it a national mandated policy that you issue an amber alert when a child goes missing. Gina DeJesus was never issued as an amber alert. She should have been. She was 14. She disappeared walking home.
So, you know, I am the father of a murdered child and it took me 27 years to get the Hollywood police to open my son's case and let me bring in outside investigator named, Joe Matthews, and a D.A., Kelly Hancock, who solved 300 murder cases and had an impeccable track record.
And in one month, they solved Adam's case. And, said, this is his tool that killed Adam. I love cops, but, boy, when they make mistakes, they need to man up and admit them and do a better job. Maybe that's the lesson we learn out of this horrible, horrible thing.
And this guy, it was not -- he's not just a predator. He's not just a child abuser or sexual abuser. He beat these women so badly that Michelle Knight was pregnant five times, and he didn't buy her birth control pills when he had her captive there. He didn't give her pregnancy devices. She got pregnant five times, and he beat her and kicked her so badly she aborted. She miscarried. This is a horrible guy. This is a really, really bad guy.
MORGAN: John, final question, and briefly, if you don't mind. Ashley Summers. I spoke to her family last night who were understandably, extremely concerned about what may have happened to her. She was snatched in a similar part of that town around 2007. What do you think may have happened to her? Do you believe from everything you have seen that she may be in some way linked to Ariel Castro too?
WALSH: I don't know, Piers. But, I do know that there are thousands of parents out there, just like Ashley Summers, whose kids have disappeared and police have said, "We're not getting involved. We believe she is a run-away."
She was listed as a run-away. They definitively said this girl probably ran and look at the three women that were in that house. Look at those women. For ten years they were in a house of hell and nobody looked for them, really. And, I know the Cleveland police have done a great job since then.
There was probably cops that were involved way back ten years ago. But, I will tell you what. I think there is a great lesson to be learned. It' is a wonderful thing these women are back, Piers. But there's big questions about what went down in the beginning of these cases.
MORGAN: Certainly are. John Walsh, as always, Thank you very much indeed.
WALSH: Thank you, Piers. Great day that they are back alive.
MORGAN: It certainly is. Coming up next, a case against Ariel Castro and the Jodi Arias verdict. I'll talk to Alan Dershowitz, Gloria Allred and Linda Fairstein. That is coming up next.
SANDRA RUIZ, GEORGIA DEJESUS' AUNT: There are not enough words to say or express the joy that we feel for the return of our family member, Gina. And, now, Amanda Berry, the daughter, and Michelle Knight, who is our family also.
MORGAN: Pastor Angel Arroyo is a close friend of the family of Gina DeJesus. He spent a day with her at her home today. Pastor, thank you for joining me. How is Gina today, would you say?
PASTO ANGEL ARROYO, FAMILY FRIEND OF DEJESUS: I can just say that in the few seconds that I have seen her that she is very quiet, but very happy and very grateful to be home with her friends and family.
MORGAN: Obviously, some very joyous scenes there for obvious reasons. And -- But do you think the family are concerned about her mental state, her physical condition? How would you describe that?
PASTOR ARROYO: I really have no comment personally for that question, I'm sorry. MORGAN: OK. In terms of the family, maybe talking about their reaction. They must be absolutely overjoyed, aren't they, to have their girl back?
PASTOR ARROYO: The family is totally, totally, totally overwhelmed and grateful and happy. It is so much emotions that they have been expressing, just happy, crying. Just nine years, from the beginning, we always said, "Yes, we know that Gina is alive. We're going to find her, every single rally, every single vigil.
When we have gone to different places, when I've gone with Felix, her father, when we have gone to Detroit, to Toledo, to Akron. When we spoke in high schools and gave the presentations in the streets and the rallies, it has always been that "Gina is alive and we are going to find her one day. And, until that day comes, I will not rest."
And, that has always been the attitude with that family and it has been committed since, and they are totally grateful and happy. And, I can't express any other way besides that they are just rejoicing right now.
MORGAN: Pastor Arroyo, it is great to hear that and do pass on our very best wishes to Gina and to the whole family. Thank you for joining us.
PASTOR ARROYO: Thank you.
MORGAN: Lots of questions tonight about why it took so long to find Amanda Berry, Gina DeJesus and Michelle Knight. Let's talk about all that with my legal eagles with me tonight is Attorney Alan Dershowitz; Civil Rights Attorney, Gloria Allred, and for sex crime prosecutor, Linda Fairstein. Welcome to you all. Alan Dershowitz, let me start with you. Should we be going hard on the Cleveland police head? Do you believe they drop the ball?
ALAN DERSHOWITZ, AMERICAN LAWYER: Well, we won't know until more evidence is uncovered and as to how effective he was in keeping what he was doing secret. I mean we don't want to adopt the Boston plan as a kind of model.
Close down a city, search every single house. They could have found them, probably, if they had engaged in that kind of total investment. Probably they could have done more. But, we always have to balance the desire to solve crime with need to maintain some degree of privacy and some concern for civil liberty.
So, the question of whether the police struck the right balance will become clear over time. If there were leads that they didn't follow, if there were opportunities they could have had to do this sooner, obviously, they should have done it. But, to Monday morning quarterback police action is always a kind of dangerous thing.
MORGAN: Gloria Allred, I mean would you agree with that? There is a lot of people getting quite angry about the fact that all these young women was snatched, one age 14, one 16, one 20. All from a very similar part of town. All in a few miles and all being held in a house a few miles from where they were caught. What do you make of that? Do you think that the police really have made serious errors here to as some belief?
GLORIA ALLRED, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well, I agree with Alan that we have to appear as wait for all of the facts to be known before we reach conclusions. But, certainly a review of what they could have done, what they did do, what they should do in same or similar circumstances, and unfortunately, there will be same or similar circumstances. I hope not as horrific as this. It is in order, but we will have to wait and see.
MORGAN: Let's take a short break. I want to talk to you Linda, when we come back about how these young women will be adapting to their new lives now out of captivity. And, also get to all of you about Jodi Arias. Should she get the death penalty?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: The State of Arizona versus Jodi Anne Arias, Verdict Count 1: "We the jury dully empanelled and sworn in the above entitled action upon our oaths do find the defendant as to count 1, first-degree murder guilty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Jodi Arias, guilty of first-degree murder, but should she be executed for murdering her ex-boyfriend? Back now with Alan Dershowitz, Gloria Allred, and Linda Fairstein. Linda, let's start with you about Clevelan first. Let's just get your reaction to this, the full scale of what this man, Ariel Castro is accused of doing. It does seem particularly heinous. You have covered many sex crimes over the last few decades. What do you think of what we're learning?
LINDA FAIRSTEIN, SEX CRIME PROSECUTOR: It is incredibly heinous. I mean we have seen very few of these cases that are abductions, which the kids, the young women survived for all of the years of their torture and capture. And, what is amazing, I think always to police to prosecutors, to John Walsh is the resilience of the human spirit.
The fact that you would expect these young women to come out, completely unable to cope. And, yet it is their coping skills that helps them to survive what this torture was, chains, ropes, tied to walls, pregnancies, miscarriages and yet they come out in this case supported really lovingly, and that helps enormously by their families, supported by the public, and there will be a resilient. You have seen it with Elizabeth Smart. You have seen it with Jaycee Dugard to be able to cooperate and to help prevent their attacker never walk the streets again.
MORGAN: Right. I mean I do wish them all the very best for their recovery, obviously. Let's turn to Jodi Arias. Alan Dershowitz, no real surprise starting out from that she was found guilty of first- degree murder, given all the evidence. The big debate now is about whether she should get the death penalty, because she has come out with this interview, saying she would prefer that to life imprisonment. What do you think of that?
DERSHOWITZ: Well, that sometimes is a tactic. Sometimes, jury want to impose the harshest penalty and they think may be that id they impose life imprisonment, it will be a harsher penalty than death penalty. It will certainly be a lot less expensive to the state to execute somebody cause millions of dollars with repeated appeal.
Whether she gets the death penalty will be a largely question of random luck and also some prejudicial fact factors. If she does not get the death penalty, it is because she is young, female and white. If she does get the death penalty, it is because the man she killed was white.
These are factors that play a greater role in whether or not a jury imposes the death penalty than any rational calculation of the heinousness of the offense. Generally, in domestic-type situation, the death penalty is not unanimously found by the jury.
But, when you have a situation like this where a woman lied repeatedly to the jury, insulted the intelligence of the jury, she may well have walked herself into the death chamber as a result of the tactic she and her lawyers employed at the trial.
MORGAN: Gloria Allred, there are apparently three women on death row in Arizona, which has the death penalty, obviously. Do you think that she deserves it for the crime that she is now being convicted of?
ALLRED: Well, I think it is for the jury to decide, and I don't want to invade the problems of the jury. But, having said that, I think the prosecutor has a very strong argument for extreme cruelty. After all, if the jury in fact believes and I do believe it that she took him and when he was in the most vulnerable state, she planned it, for him to be in the shower, to take that photo of him.
And, then when his back is turned to strike him, to knife him, to stab him 27 times, to almost decapitate him. It is really torture. It is really making him suffer and then ultimately dragging his body around and shooting him at some point in the head as though the suffering was not enough.
If the jury believes all of that, they are going to find extreme cruelty. They are going to weigh aggravating versus mitigating circumstances. And, the mitigation may be that she has no prior criminal history, but the aggravating circumstances may be such that they will find that they have to impose the death penalty.
And, her manipulation of the jury by saying I want to die, in other words, give me what I want and they supposedly that is reverse psychology so that they give her what she wants and give her a life. I don't think that is going to have an impact on them.
MORGAN: I agree. Linda, why are we so obsessed with this case, because America certainly is as it was with Casey Anthony. Is there something particularly fascinating about these two women that drives this kind of extraordinary interest, really, because there are many cases that are not dissimilar to this? FAIRSTEIN: I cannot understand for a minute why we are so obsessed with this case. I think it has taken way too long to try. There are many, many cases sadly in this country, where people who have had an intimate relationship, one has killed the other. I think the judge was controlled of this somewhere along the way. And, there is absolutely no reason why it should have had the kind of attention it had.
MORGAN: Alan Dershowitz --
MORGAN: Is it television --
MORGAN: I mean, in Britain for example, we don't have television in courtrooms, and so these kinds of cases don't get the kind of attention, perhaps they do in America where you can watch them almost like a soap opera.
DERSHOWITZ: Right. We have all gotten to know this woman. She has testified ad nauseam. You cannot turn on the television, not see her testifying. She has talked to us. She has insulted our intelligence. We are routing for outcomes in this case.
But, how attractive people are and how attractive their victims are plays an important role. I mean, the other case of course is Amanda Knox. She said in her own book that if she had not been perceived as a beautiful young woman, people would not have cared as much about her.
Unfortunately, how a person looks and how they behave on the witness stand is often times more relevant than whether they get any sympathy or hatred than what the actual underlying facts of the case are.
MORGAN: Gloria, very quickly. Are you a fan of television in the courtrooms -- Gloria, I'm sorry. We have lost you, apparently. So, let's go to Linda. Linda, are you a fan of television in courtrooms. Do you think that it aids the legal processes or perhaps gets in the way in and is a hindrance?
FAIRSTEIN: I don't think it aids at all. I think it -- when judges and participants begin to play to the television cameras when judges change in schedules to comport with, it is convenient for people. I think they saw it then sense in case when Ito actually was having birthday parties for reporters in his chambers, it is just -- It makes a circus have it all thing, or enables it to be a circus.
DERSHOWITZ: But on the other hand, the American public has the right to see their courts in action. So, you have to strike a balance. I think we have too much television in sensational cases. Too little Supreme Court arguments.
MORGAN: Yes. I think that is a good point, Alan Dershowitz, Gloria Allred, who we lost earlier, and Linda Fairstein, Thank you, all very much indeed.
DERSHOWITZ: Thank you.
MORGAN: We will be right back.
MORGAN: That is all for us now. Later tonight at 9:00 p.m. eastern, all the latest details on the missing women found alive in Cleveland. Plus, the penalty phase begins to Jodi Arias. Will she get the death penalty?
And, also actress, activist, and concern mother, Jada Pinkett Smith, on her mission to stop human trafficking. Anderson Cooper starts right now.