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Did Jodi Have a Meltdown?
Aired May 9, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Jodi Arias in chains. Murderer Jodi moved to a new prison and into a psychiatric ward. Court canceled for the day.
Is this a ploy? Is the mistress of manipulation still playing around? We have unearthed new, never before seen tape of her during questioning and the behavior bureau will answer this question: should Jodi live or die?
Plus, the daughter of the suspect in the Ohio abduction speaks. Is her own father a monster? Anderson Cooper is here with us for the latest.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening, everyone.
My co-host is HLN`s Christi Paul.
And tonight, we`ve got a lot to get through. There is breaking news. As Nancy was saying, the family had arrived moments ago to go visit Jodi Arias in the psychiatric ward.
And apparently they came just now right back out again. I don`t know if there`s some issue with visitation. Maybe Jodi rejected them. Maybe she`s too ill psychiatrically. I don`t know.
I disagree, Christi, with Nancy very strongly. If somebody`s in a psychiatric ward, if a clinician takes that responsibility, she has to meet criteria to be there. That`s just no some manipulation. On top of that, Christi, I would say if I were the warden, and I had somebody doing a news interview where she just said, "I want to die," boom, that person goes into a locked facility, wouldn`t you say?
CHRISTI PAUL, HLN ANCHOR: Well, yes. And I`m wondering, I want to get your opinion on this. Jodi Arias has been living this life that she`s lived that nobody can believe anything she says for so many years, but is it possible, Dr. Drew, for people like her to suddenly have a moment where everything stops like it did yesterday and she knows she`s caught and she can`t go anywhere and could reality be setting in with her at all?
PINSKY: They do. Well, they can collapse. Yes, they can collapse into shame and suicidality. We`re going to talk about all of that tonight.
And I didn`t see that, though, with her. I saw her deflecting a lot of stuff, but talking about dying, the guess what? The warden of that institution is responsible for her safety, even though she`s a murder one, having been convicted.
They still have to make sure she doesn`t kill herself. They put her in a locked ward. That`s it, man. Don`t have any conversations about it.
And also, court was suddenly called off today. We have new information about that.
Plus, we know how Travis died. But how will Jodi die if she gets the death penalty. And just about everybody`s saying something`s wrong with Jodi.
Even Jodi herself in these videos, a clip from KASZ. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JODI ARIAS, KIDNAP VICTIM: A psychologist once explained to me that society has this need to persecute people. They get some sort of gratification from it. So there might be something going on there.
WITNESS: I diagnose her on axis 2 as borderline personality disorder. It`s about instability. There`s unstable interpersonal relationships, unstable emotions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s been an a little crazy for a year. It`s been longer than that, now that I think about it.
ARIAS: It`s not that I`m not remorseful that he died. I didn`t kill him. I didn`t take his life.
INVESTIGATOR: Did you have anything to do with it?
ARIAS: I had nothing to do with his death at all, at all. The reason I hesitate is because maybe this is something that`s wrong with me psychologically, is I think of the butterfly effect. And it`s like you could say that the guy pumping gas station -- pumping gas down at the gas station could have potentially because you see all these movies, these funky movies, where it`s like this affected this which affected this.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
PINSKY: She needed to stop with the something wrong with me psychologically, not get to the chaos theory. Come on now.
Tonight my panel, Mark Eiglarsh from speaktomark.com, Loni Coombs, attorney and author of "You`re Perfect and Other Lies Parents Tell", and psychologist Robi Ludwig, author of "Till Do Us Part".
Now, we`re now learning that the defense has requested the victim impact statements be made on video. Not in person. That is to say they`re worried.
I think the defense is worried that somebody`s going to have an emotional outburst on the stand and that might sway the jury. Mark, do you understand what they`re up to here?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: A hundred percent. The word that you can hear from judge is denied.
They can do all they want and again defense attorneys define winning, I guess good ones do anything, as doing everything they can to get the best possible outcome. In this case, they`ve got to do everything. And that is filing a motion. I don`t think it has any merit, to prevent any emotional outburst.
Well, that`s part of an emotional statement. It`s going to happen. And there is case law that gives the judge the discretion. But I do not believe that she`s going to grant that request.
PINSKY: Loni, let`s revisit what I was just saying. Nancy, this is not, I mean, critical of Nancy. I just disagree with Nancy in the strongest terms how this woman, Jodi, ends up in a psych ward.
LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: Yes. You know, I was so frustrated yesterday because when that verdict came down, that was the moment that should have been for the victim`s family. Everyone who had been holding their breath since the moment they found out that Travis died, just hoping that the right thing happen, they heard it, they should have had at least a few hours, one night to exhale and say you know what, Travis, we did it. We got justice for you. We`re going to take a breath before we go back into court and see what happens next.
But Jodi had to grab that spotlight right back. She cannot stand to be in the shadows. She can`t stand to have the spotlight on anybody else but her, immediately went and gave the most, craziest statement, that just grabbed headline, every statement from everyone was about Jodi`s statement. I mean, the verdict was almost a sideline compared to going through every single thing that Jodi said.
And, you know, she talked about yes, the best thing that should happen is I just want to end my life. She was very careful not to say I`m suicidal. I think she was playing that game like she always does.
And the warden, like you said, who has liabilities on the line, he`s responsible for the safety of every inmate in there, just decided, hey, sweetie, if you`re going to throw that word around like somebody throws out the word "bomb" in an airport, that means something here when you`re in jail. You could say that when you`re on the inside, when you`re, that means you go right to the psych ward.
PINSKY: You go to the locked ward. That`s right. You go to the suicide status.
Robi, help people understand, as a clinician, there are certain criteria someone has to meet to make access to that ward, and it`s not the criteria of manipulation. If there`s real reason to believe that person`s safety is at issue, they go.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOLOGIST: And I`m also sure that Jodi has a history of suicidality. So I imagine in her psych history, this isn`t the first time that she`s threatened suicide and that she`s probably even tried to take her life. And I think there`s a misconception that when people are suicidal that they are convinced that they want to die. There`s always ambivalence there.
And so, what they want to do is end the pain. Do I think that Jodi was upstaging and trying to manipulate the jury? Yes. Having said that, I think that there is a bit of truth to her going to an extreme. So, she said, listen, the jury will never convict her. But once that happened, she went to the other extreme. Now that the jury`s convicted me, now I want death so I don`t have to feel pain, and I want freedom.
PINSKY: But, Robi --
LUDWIG: I do think there is an aspect in Jodi`s psyche that believes that.
PINSKY: Yes, I agree with you, but I -- she use, the reason we all react so strongly to this nonsense from Jodi is she also has a strategy she uses, which is as follows -- I have murderous rage. You all know that now. I`ve been -- you`ve seen my murderous rage, you`ve seen the consequences of it.
Now I`m disavowing that murderous rage. I want to die and I want you to kill me, or if I kill myself, it`s all on you guys. You`re the actual murderers. You`ve caused this.
I`m taking my murderous rage. I`m putting it on you.
HLN`s Jean Casarez is live outside the jail with all the latest on a family and the jail.
What`s happening there, Jean? I understand you spoke to the family and they walked in and came right back out and spoke to you.
JEAN CASAREZ, HLN CORRESPONDENT: Jodi`s mother just left the jail. She had gone in about maybe 10 minutes ago. She just came out right now.
I asked her how is Jodi, and she said I was not able to see her because they told me she is, quote, "under watch".
So although I was told ahead of time by the Maricopa Sheriff`s Department she would be able to have her mother as a visitor, they turned her mother away just minutes ago saying that Jodi is under watch and we do know that there`s round the clock supervision of Jodi Arias by doctors and nurses in this psych facility. And this is the only psych ward in Maricopa County, and that`s why she was moved to lower buckeye jail.
PINSKY: Robi, I want to bring you this conversation real quick. You and I have both worked in psychiatric hospitals and know that somebody who really starts to cave, starts to collapse, can get pretty wild. I wonder if this is sort of, really, a complete collapse that`s going on here and she`s sort of falling apart.
LUDWIG: Yes. And sometimes when people are at their most suicidal is when it`s when they want to take control of a situation that they feel is completely out of control. So their idea, their disturbed idea is if I kill myself then I won`t be in pain anymore. So she could be really at this place right now.
PINSKY: But when they can`t do that, either, though, I`ve seen similar personality issues, get wild, I mean wild. And, Jean, that may be why they`re not allowing mom in there. She may be really unstable. Do you have any hints to that effect?
CASAREZ: We don`t know. But it is strangely curious. It is coincidental, right?
And last night, when I was at the Estrella jail, her mother came, along with her grandmother. They were in there for about 23 minutes to see Jodi. And so I was really surprised when she went in and within 10 minutes was out and told me just minutes ago that she was denied a visit because of Jodi under watch tonight at the Buckhead County jail.
PINSKY: Or, Christi, I know you have a question for Jean, I`ll let you at her in just a second, or she`s being so medicated that they don`t want her -- they don`t want the family to see her in that condition. Christi, what do you say?
PAUL: Actually, my question was for you. Because you just said they can get so wild at that point.
PAUL: What do you mean? I mean, what might she do?
PINSKY: You know, they get violent and aggressive. And all that range age and chaos comes out in strange ways. I -- you know, I`m not saying it`s necessarily happening, but I have seen, I`ve been surprised sometimes when people have nothing else.
Mark, you have a comment?
EIGLARSH: Yes, I disagree with you, my friend.
EIGLARSH: I think this is not about someone with a psychiatric problem. I think this is someone with a defect in character.
PINSKY: Mark, how do you get in a psych ward without a psychiatric problem, damn it.
EIGLARSH: No, I disagree with you.
PINSKY: That`s not possible. You have to get the licensing checked out at the facility.
EIGLARSH: She is an actress.
PINSKY: But, Mark, we have professionals at that facility admitting her.
EIGLARSH: Listen to me.
PINSKY: I`m listening.
EIGLARSH: She finally realized that the rest of her life, there are only two options. She`s going to spend the rest of her life in prison or the state`s going to kill her, which ironically they put her on suicide watch.
PINSKY: It doesn`t feel good.
EIGLARSH: She has two options. You`re right, so she`s acting --
EIGLARSH: -- like she has some psychiatric problem.
But it is just somebody who is pissed that the jury condemned her.
PINSKY: Loni says yes. Robi, help me here.
COOMBS: Look, Mark and I have been in the trenches as attorneys. We know what defendants do. We know the games they play. We know what happens when they come -- you know, the warden has to be very, very careful in making sure that there is safety in the jail, and in an abundance of caution --
PINSKY: I get that.
COOMBS: -- if there`s any red flag they`re going to put them.
PINSKY: I get it. You guys are though, attacking the professional conduct of my peers by saying they`re getting sucked into this. Robi, help me out there. If they`re going to medicate somebody, they better be damn sure that she has a problem or they`ve got a licensing problem.
LUDWIG: Remember, here, Jodi would not be in the circumstances she`s in if she didn`t have a psych problem. Let`s not forget that. And I will bet you anything that this is a woman who has had suicidality in her history. Now --
PINSKY: We know that for sure, Robi, for sure.
LUDWIG: Having said that, maybe she`s not really a danger to herself. Yes, absolutely. And she could be a danger to other.
And just because somebody kills other people doesn`t mean they can`t kill themselves and vice versa.
PINSKY: Or that they don`t have medical and psychiatric problems. And the medical can`t function on their behalf.
LUDWIG: That`s right.
PINSKY: Guys, I`ve got to stop right there.
Wait until you hear -- but I do think Jodi is manipulative and terrible. Don`t get me wrong. She`s now blaming the victim still, from jail.
And later, new and disturbing details are emerging in the Ohio kidnapping case. That`s real monster. You want to see monster, this guy defines that.
Anderson Cooper as been out there and will join me later. Back after this.
PINSKY: Back with my behavior bureau and my co-host, Christi Paul. I want to thank Jean Casarez for that report. She is standing by. If there`s anything further with the family, she will get back with us.
Christi, also joining you and I tonight is clinical psychologist Cheryl Arutt, and Wendy Walsh, psychologist and author of "The 30-Day Love Detox." I think -- who else is in panel here? Robi you`re still with me, fantastic.
OK. Now, in Jodi`s first post-verdict interview that`s caused all this action and almost caused Mark to, I don`t know, inflict bodily harm on me, is that --
PAUL: Blow a gasket?
PINSKY: Whatever he went to.
The interview with KSAZ and she was asked about her mother. She -- I want you to watch it this very carefully. I had almost a physical response to it. After 22 seconds of silence and saying she couldn`t talk. She finally did. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I can`t talk right now.
REPORTER: Is that the hardest part, thinking about your mom?
ARIAS: Yes. My mom and my whole family, yes, it`s difficult. As far as my mom, I feel like I don`t deserve her. She`s been a saint. And I`ve not treated her very well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: OK, guys. Now I had a very strong and unpleasant reaction watching that. But I had an even stronger reaction watching you three watched the video. And I know each of you had a different reaction, which I find fascinating.
Cheryl, let me start with you. I think you had a very powerful reaction to that. What did you feel? Cheryl didn`t hear me?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSYCHOLOGIST: I was looking for whether the -- can you hear me, Drew?
PINSKY: Go ahead.
ARUTT: Hi, OK, good. I was looking to see if I felt any authenticity there, because the tears really seemed to be for herself and the overwhelming ending that was happening. And then I felt like she kind of made a turn and made it about her mom.
But the silence was sort of like, what do I do with this?
PINSKY: That`s right.
ARUTT: And how to I play this? And I don`t want to be seen as a person who -- that kind of feeling.
I want to say one other thing, Dr. Drew.
ARUTT: Which is the criteria, well, it was empty, but it`s about the thing that went on with you and Mark in the last block, which is just that are the criteria really the same to be locked up if you`re going from a locked prison to a locked psych ward, because I think what you said is true if it`s someone who`s out there in the world to meet criteria. But I don`t know that it`s as hard to get moved from a prison.
PINSKY: I understand that. I`m sure it`s different. But the point is, it`s run by medical professionals with -- it`s a medical facility run by medical professionals who have criteria for admission.
I`m sure they`re different than the outside world. But let`s not attack the professionals that work there. They know what they`re doing.
Wendy, your reaction?
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, my reaction was that bid for silence. That need for silence was a need for her to think this out. What is the right thing to say right here.
Interestingly enough, I, like, just did a turn as well. Because then when she said I don`t deserve my mother, we`re realizing at this stage, she may have a personality disorder. She`s still human. She knows there`s a good chance she`s going to die or maybe not see her family for a very, very long time.
So, she`s still going to experience feelings of loss and abandonment, even if they are deserved by our -- you know, in the jury`s eyes.
PINSKY: That`s right.
And now, Robi, you.
LUDWIG: I mean, I actually think on some level she understands that her mother loves her. And she was not a good daughter. And she feels badly for her mother for having a daughter like her. I think on some level, even though she may not be the most empathic person, I think that there was some truth there.
PINSKY: But I think she was disconnected from it. I think she didn`t want to touch it. She didn`t want to go near it. Again, everything is Teflon with Jodi, it slides off her, even an important feeling that she understands intellectually but can`t quite feel.
I`m going to share with you a tweet that I got last night. And it highlights a concept that I want to try to explain to patients -- excuse me, to the viewers -- and it has something about why we react so strongly to Jodi.
This is a clinician who tweeted me the following, "My borderline patients use suicidality as a covert cover for murderous rage. Quote, `You are the killer if I kill myself.` It`s a projection. It`s blame."
I want you each to respond to that. Wendy, you`re shaking your head. Go.
WALSH: Absolutely. I`m nodding my head. I absolutely agree. I think that they sort of play the victim, if you will. They blame the outside world. They externalize everything they possibly can and suicidality is the best way to get back at the whole world. Look what you made me do.
I`m sure she thinks, Travis, look what you`ve made me do. Look where you`ve put me now in this courtroom.
PINSKY: That`s right. And, Christi, does this make sense to you? Because this is where the rubber hits the road. I want to make sure the average person understand this.
It`s -- hey, I`m going to kill myself or I`m going to get you to kill me because I`m disavowing my murderous rage. It`s actually yours. I can`t tell the difference. I put it on you.
PAUL: It`s a deflection, because she won`t take responsibility for anything. It`s always got to be somebody else`s fault.
But what I find interesting is, it`s kind of the same pattern in that she was supposedly telling Travis that she was going to commit suicide. And then she went into this murderous range.
So, if she`s doing it again now, I`m wondering, you know, saying she wants to commit suicide -- what is the risk that she could go into another rage like she did that night when she killed Travis? Because this is as serious as it gets.
PINSKY: Christi, when I said I`ve seen people go wild, you really hit the nail on the head. That`s what I`ve seen happen in locked rooms when people can`t kill themselves and get in touch with that rage. They start - - they become rageful at people and the environment, but the rage becomes absolutely uncontainable.
Robi, your comment?
LUDWIG: Well, suicide is a murderous rage. It`s a murderous rage directed at the self.
And in some cases, it`s done to say, see, you should feel guilty. You didn`t love me enough, you didn`t treat me well enough, and as a result, I had to end my life. You live with that now for the rest of your life.
It`s a way to punish somebody. That`s not true in all cases. But it is true in some cases.
PINSKY: I think people would understand that, Cheryl, if a teenager acted like that, because that`s kind of the crazy, magical way teenagers think, and also the way people act who have personality disorders -- Cheryl.
ARUTT: Yes, it`s age appropriate if you`re a teenager. I love the way you talked about how people kind of split-off feelings that they don`t want to claim and they put it in the other person.
I talk with my patients about a hot potato kind of feeling, that, you know, it`s not my rage. I don`t hate you, you hate me. I`m not angry, you`re mad at me. And people kind of fling it to somebody else and experience it as coming at them.
PINSKY: I wish all four of us were on camera when you were saying that, Cheryl, because all of us were shaking our head vigorously, like yes, we`ve all dealt with that. It`s a common thing.
Christi, did we make sense of this? Did the bureau do it justice? Do you get it now?
PAUL: I think so, for the average person.
PINSKY: Yes, that`s the idea. It`s far more, it`s do not assume everyone`s brains and minds work like yours do. There are people like Jodi out there who cannot feel and think that things that they`re feeling about you, which are in fact their feelings, are yours.
PAUL: And I think that`s why it`s so hard for people to try to figure Jodi out.
PINSKY: That`s why it`s so upsetting to deal with her. It`s worse than that. She can`t feel anything. She puts it all on us.
Wendy, finish it up.
WALSH: Well, besides, people like Jodi with a full on personality disorder here. There are other people in America who just play the victim a lot. You know, I see this all the time. It`s like somehow the world`s wrong and they`re right. And the world is down against them.
PINSKY: That`s a little different though. That`s different than this.
WALSH: It`s a lot different, but it is growing in America. And it`s a big problem, trust me.
PINSKY: I agree. And people confuse these things. And that`s why I like to tease this out at the behavior bureau.
Thank you, ladies.
Next up, our forensic experts are here with their thoughts on the verdict. And there they are -- oh, yes, can`t wait to talk to those guys.
And later, the daughter of the suspect in the Ohio abduction speaks out. Her own father, the monster that perpetrated all this. Be back in a moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: In terms of this particular gunshot wound, what organ did it strike, and what effect would it have had on Mr. Alexander if it had been the first injury to his body?
DR. KEVIN HORN, MEDICAL EXAMINER: It passed through the front of the right side of his skull and would have injured the right frontal lobe of his brain, and would have been very rapidly incapacitating.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, HLN`s Christi Paul. She`s the author of "Love isn`t Supposed to Hurt."
Christi, that is the medical examiner whom I don`t think is available until next Wednesday which is why court has been postponed until then. However, we don`t know why court was canceled today. However, if somebody can`t even have visitation from their mother, I imagine they`re not going to be in very good shape to go to court, wouldn`t you agree?
PAUL: Yes, I have to think that somebody happened with Jodi and her attorneys. I mean, we know that the judge met with the defense team and with Jodi alone prior to canceling. So clearly something happened in that exchange that they said, we can`t do this. And we know the prosecution said, yes, Dr. Horn isn`t available until next Wednesday.
But I just wonder -- we know that that testimony he`s going to give is going to be so brutal yet again.
Well, speaking of brutal, Mark Eiglarsh is back. I`ve brought in the knife doctor with you, but I`ve separated you by the friend of Travis Alexander. He is a CSI expert, Randolph Beasley, and as I said, pathologist, Dr. Bill Lloyd is here.
Bill, do you have your knife with you tonight, Dr. Lloyd?
DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST: Of course I do.
PINSKY: OK. Of course, just make sure Mr. Eiglarsh doesn`t reach across and grab that. I might be some mortal danger here. Randolph, I`m going to start with you. Does your theory regarding the order of stabbing matter in the upcoming hearing?
RANDOLPH BEASLEY, KNEW TRAVIS, KNOWS JODI: Probably not, Dr. Drew. In other words, there`s cruelty involved no matter what, whether the gunshot was first which in case, think, it is of course or the stabbing is first. The bottom line is Travis suffered tremendously. It was a brutal killing. And, I think the jury would find absolutely no doubt that they need to go to the death penalty.
PINSKY: And so, Dr. Lloyd, whether or not he was shot and we`re seeing blood spattered out of his mouth because it went from his ethmoid bone, the bullet came out his nose, or because he was stabbed in his vena cava, and it got through to his esophagus or his thorax and he`s spitting up blood, in either case, he`s standing at the mirror, watching Jodi kill him, knowing he`s dying.
DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST: Absolutely. And if you open up the dictionary to the word overkill, you`re going to see a picture of Jodi Arias. She didn`t stop once by simply stabbing him in the chest and nailing vital structures. No. She went on and slit his throat as well and then dragged him back to the bathroom and finally took out the gun and shot him in the head. Three times. Who kills a person three times? Only a savage person.
PINSKY: And Mark, I, to me -- now, the jury has to find that Jodi acted in a heinous, cruel, let`s see what the other issues are, depraved. Those are all the ways she has to have behaved. Juan Martinez has to prove that. For me, either way, whether she shot him and then as he tries to run away, she knew she had to finish the job and does that horrible neck wound or if she stabs him in the chest and incidentally does the neck wound, it`s all disgusting and depraved, wouldn`t you say?
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: Yes, but I do have to correct you about that. Juan attempted three different aggravators, and the only one left is the cruelty. The depraved and the other one that you mentioned were not proven by probable cause. So, the sole issue is cruelty. And I think that everyone, including Nurmi and the other lawyer would agree, what their client is accused of and now convicted of is just cruel.
PINSKY: Wait, Mark, that sounded confusing to me. Tell us a little more what that -- because it also looks depraved and it looks whatever else. I mean, you can add a bunch of adjectives here.
EIGLARSH: Well --
PINSKY: Some legal --
EIGLARSH: Don`t --
PINSKY: Yes, go ahead.
EIGLARSH: Yes. It is some legal stuff. And don`t kill the messenger, but at some point, Juan Martinez, the prosecutor, said judge, we have three legal aggravators, and only one of the three the judge found probable cause. So, the only one he`s arguing is that this was extremely or especially cruel. And my point is that everyone, including defense lawyers would agree that it is cruel.
PINSKY: And Randolph, do you believe that Jodi`s mother, although, she doesn`t know if she`s going to participate, could be an important part of these proceedings?
BEASLEY: Oh, you bet. I mean, to avoid the death penalty, they have to have the sympathy factor in there. And so, to have her own mother, to be there to testify on her behalf and to cry and to touch there -- pull on their heartstrings to somehow spare her life, it would be a big mistake, in my opinion, not to do that.
PINSKY: And now, we`re learning that the defense has actually requested that the statements, the so-called victim impact statements, that, I guess, the mom could make or other supporters might make, that they be made on video, not in person, worrying that these emotional outbursts in court could unfairly sway the jury. Dr. Lloyd, you`re shaking your head no. Tell me.
LLOYD: Yes. That`s the price she had to pay for killing Travis. She`s going to have to sit there in the courtroom and hear those comments from all of those victims. I have a quick question for Mark. Will they be empanelling a brand new jury for this phase of the trial? And if so, do we have to tell the whole story all over again?
EIGLARSH: The answer is no. If they find that this was especially cruel, they do go to the next phase, the penalty phase. They will empower new jury if they then in the penalty phase don`t all unanimously agree, all 12 of them, either for death or for life. That concerns me because capital punishment generically is very controversial.
And certainly, as it applies to her, 12 people all agreeing? If not, we go through this all over again, just at least the penalty phase.
PINSKY: Wow. Thank you, gentlemen. Speaking of empanelling a new jury, I`ve got a jury that`s coming back right now to tell us what they know about what went on in court today.
And later, prosecutors are telling us the Ohio kidnap -- suspect made -- this is another list of legal terms that I think apply, premeditated, deliberate, and depraved decisions when he snatched three young women. Anderson Cooper is with us from Ohio. Back after this.
PINSKY: It is time for Dr. Drew`s jurors. Back with my co-host, HLN`s Christi Paul. The verdict is in, but the trial is far from over. And reminder, you will not miss one minute of it here on HLN. Joining us from our jury, Katie Wick and Stacey Farrington. Katie, why do you think the judge canceled court today? What`s the scuttled (ph) about (INAUDIBLE) there?
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": Well, we believe, we were saying that maybe, perhaps, it had something to do with her defense attorneys, because there were I don`t like to really report rumors, Dr. Drew, but the rumor has it that there were some loud discussions, some volatile words that were happening yesterday after the verdict was read, perhaps, between Jodi and her attorneys. So, we thought maybe, perhaps, she gave them the boot. So, that`s the talk around here.
PINSKY: Oh, interesting. Christi, you`ve got a question for my jury?
CHRISTI PAUL, HLN ANCHOR: Well, Stacey, I was just wondering, you know, how the family seemed, because it sounded to me like everybody was in the courtroom and they were ready to go. And then, all of a sudden, the judge meets with the defense and Arias and they`re gone.
PINSKY: More excruciating time spent for this poor family. Go ahead, Stacey.
STACEY FAIRRINGTON, DR. DREW "JUROR": You know, seeing them today, they just had a glow to them. You could tell there was so much relief on their faces for the first time in how many years have we been here with this trial? I mean, they were elated and happy and content and really ready to kind of -- I think they had really geared themself up for what was going to be a really difficult day today.
And, they were really just ready for it. And I think, you know, with this cancellation again, I think it`s, you know, something that nobody is completely shocked by. And you know, we`ll just have to pick up again next week.
WICK: But I don`t think it`s as bad, Dr. Drew, as it were before, because we -- at least, now we have a verdict. We`re halfway there.
PINSKY: Right. At least there`s (ph) that relief. But I can just imagine this poor family. They`re going to have -- they know they`re going to have to go through something very unpleasant. And they want to get back to their lives, I imagine. Their lives have been completely turned upside down. So, again, our thoughts and prayers are with the family. Please communicate our support if we can, ladies. Thank you, guys.
Next up, Anderson Cooper live from Cleveland with emerging details from just a horrific kidnapping story.
But first, let`s get a preview from "HLN After Dark." Vinnie Politan, Ryan Smith are standing by in Atlanta. Gentlemen, what do you got tonight?
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Thanks Dr. Drew. Coming up tonight on "HLN After Dark," it was -- this trial`s amazing, Ryan, because nothing happened in court, yet, it`s an amazing day. So many things transpired and so many mysteries out in Phoenix tonight.
RYAN SMITH, HLN ANCHOR: That`s right. It`s like with Jodi Arias, you always expect the unexpected. So, we`re going to dive into that. We`ve got so much to talk about. You`ve got a smoking gun that`s going to shock a lot of people.
POLITAN: Shock a lot of people. We got our jury here.
SMITH: And jury in Arizona, of course. A lot coming up tonight on " After Dark." Don`t sleep, we don`t.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLES RAMSEY, HELPED FREE MISSING WOMEN: And, man, this girl screamed like a car had hit a kid. So, here I come with my, you know, half eaten big mac. And I said what`s up. She`s like I`ve been trapped in here. He won`t let me out, it`s me and my baby. I say, well, here -- come on. I`m trying to get the door open and I can`t. It`s been tortured chain and some kind of way locked in that right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And I`m back with my co-host, Christi Paul and attorneys Mark Eiglarsh and Loni Coombs. Also joining us, "AC 360`s" Anderson Cooper. He interviewed Charles Ramsey, whom I love, him and his Big Mac. He`s been labeled America`s newest and unlikeliest hero.
All right. Anderson, I understand when you were interviewing him, one of the things that got to you was how many people would have looked the other way, and he did not.
ANDERSON COOPER, ANCHOR, CNN`S "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Yes. And I think that`s really something in this day and age. You talk to police, and that is an ongoing issue in a lot of communities throughout this country where people do look the other way. And we know of multiple cases where that`s happened or even people have witnessed crimes and then won`t talk to police about what -- you know, they don`t want to be labeled the snitch.
And this is a guy who, you know, could have very easily just kept on eating his Big Mac and ignore what was going on. But you know, there was another neighbor involved, Angel Cordero (ph), who run -- who was actually the one who first kind of got Charles Ramsey`s attention by running across the street.
So, you have two people here who again could very easily have turned the other way and decided -- actually just got involved and they help save this person`s life.
PINSKY: Now, Anderson, there`s something about this story that caught my attention that surprised me and it`s the way the press is reacting to an aspect of it that I find matter of fact. This alleged perpetrator, this monster that stowed these women away and abused them for years, he was apparently sexually abused himself.
He was a trauma survivor. He had self -- he had suicide reality (ph). That`s very typical for somebody that`s engaged in this kind of behavior. Why don`t -- why was that such a surprise to the press?
COOPER: I don`t know that it was a surprise. I mean, I don`t know that there`s been a lot of focus on that, because frankly, we don`t know the truth. I mean, that information is coming from his own writings. So, the details on what actually happened to him as a child, frankly, we don`t know. And, you know, I think there are a lot of people who would kind of bristle at the notion that that would be some sort of excuse or justification.
PINSKY: But it`s not. This is the point. Anderson, I got to interrupt, this is the point. There`s sort of two ways people become monsters like that. One is they`re sort of born and they have a psychopathic brain. And the other is they`re severely brutalized as kids. That`s how you get this kind of monster.
It`s not an excuse because he should have gotten help years ago before he ever hurt somebody, whether he got it because of genes or because of environment. It`s not an excuse, it`s not a justification. Loni and Mark, do you guys have any questions for Anderson?
EIGLARSH: I do. Anderson, I wanted to know after you`ve like looked through this, whether there was any one who could have prevented it along the way. If you found any law enforcement officer who failed to follow up on something or some type of child protective worker or anything?
COOPER: You know, Gary Tuchman actually was just interviewing two men who actually say that they witnessed the kidnapping of Gina Dejesus when she was 14 years old. And actually, they said they approached police and police didn`t really take them seriously. And obviously, that`s something that a lot of people here find, you know, deeply, deeply upsetting.
And there`s a lot of people in the neighborhood who feel like police could have done more. The police for their part say, look, we`ve gone through our records. People who said they called 911 when they saw a naked woman in the backyard. They say they don`t have a record of that. It`s possible the person didn`t kind of call 911 in the, you know, in an effective way and given the address and just kind of called it in a more general way. And so, therefore, it wasn`t logged in the right way. A lot of questions still remain, though, about were there missed opportunities.
PINSKY: All right. Next up, we have more with Anderson and his interview with Castro`s in-laws. He was the perpetrator. Be back right after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELIDA CARABALLO, FORMER SISTER-IN-LAW: He had pushed her down a flight of steps, broke her skull from the front of her head to the back of her head (INAUDIBLE).
ELIDE-MARIE CARABALLO, NIECE: She just stops and hold her head. She`s like Maria, I`m in so much pain. And he, that he did that to her. And I just couldn`t do nothing but hug her, you know?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was Ariel Castro, the man I like to call the monster, former sister-in-law and her daughter. They were addressing some alleged abuse suffered by Castro`s now deceased ex-wife. Back with Anderson Cooper, host of "AC 360." He joins us live from Cleveland where a kidnapping drama continues to unfold.
Christi, I know you have questions for Anderson. I want to let you have at a little bit.
PAUL: Yes. Anderson, you know, I was reading in "Time" magazine tonight that Ariel Castro actually gave these girls a special birthday, a special cake and a special dinner on the days that were the anniversaries of when they were abducted and that he even showed up at a fundraiser last year for Dejesus and comforted her mother. That is so semi-turning. I`m wondering what else you`re learning about this guy there?
COOPER: Well, that`s the extraordinary things, the connections between this man and the Dejesus family. You know, one of the daughters of Ariel Castro was the last person to be seen with Gina Dejesus and allegedly Castro actually kidnapped Gina Dejesus after watching her walk down the street from school with his own daughter.
And over the years, there were all these connections. A son of Ariel Castro actually wrote an article when he was studying journalism about the impact of the kidnapping in this neighborhood. He interviewed Gina Dejesus` mom. And so, the idea that family members were showing up at vigils, all the while not knowing that their own father allegedly was holding the young girl that they were at a vigil for. Just, it`s stunning the connections between these families.
PINSKY: Loni, we have less than a minute. Go ahead.
LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: Anderson, I`ve got a question. I understand that the child that he had allegedly with Amanda, he started to take around. He would actually take her out in public with him. Do you think that might have had something to do with why Amanda finally, at this point, decided she was going to escape?
COOPER: You know, we really don`t know, but it does seem like that he did bring her out, in fact, she was the only one really allowed to leave the house. Neighbors said that, one neighbor said that he introduced her as his girlfriend`s daughter.
That he would take her to the park but that the other women weren`t able to go outside the house at all in the last ten years except for two instances that they`ve, so far, recounted where they were brought to the garage just behind the house. I just can`t fathom the idea of being locked inside for ten years. It just boggles the mind.
PINSKY: These poor girls and this man truly defines a monster. Anderson, thank you so much for joining us. Tune in tonight at AC for "AC 360" at 10:00. p.m. Last call is next.
PINSKY: CNN spoke with Ariel Castro`s daughter, Angie. Let`s all take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then my husband among maybe 20 other people called and said hey, they have your dad`s house taped off. They have your dad`s picture and name on the news. It was like everything crashed down. Like, I just wanted to melt into the floor. Like, I just wanted to die.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: You can see the rest of that interview tonight on "AC 360." Christi, can you imagine how shattering that must have been for her?
PAUL: Well, I think what`s so unbelievable to people, too, is that this man was able to do this for ten years with virtually no family members or anyone knowing about it. And I wanted to ask Mark, you know, one of the things that surprised me today. I know that his bond was set at $8 million, but I`m surprised they set one at all.
PAUL: What do you make of that?
EIGLARSH: Well, it`s tantamount or equal to no bond. He`d have to come up with $800,000 plus have sufficient collateral to cover $8 million. It`s the same thing as no bond for a man who`s blaming the girls for the abduction.
PINSKY: Oh my God, I know. That`s part of the craziness of his ramblings. But Loni, also to you, he -- one of the mothers of one of these girls died, and to my estimation, it`s dying of the stress of what he caused. Why isn`t he be considered for murder for her as well as well as the fetuses that he aborted?
COOMBS: Well, let me tell you, I am so thrilled and kudos to Ohio, they`re one of the 23 states that actually have fetal homicide laws on the books which will allow the prosecutor in this case to actually file five aggravated murder charges for the five fetuses and the girls that he impregnated who he beat out of them and ended up killing those fetuses. So, the prosecutor is going to be able to file the murder charges and it will make him eligible for the death penalty.
PINSKY: I`m going to have to take a break, but how are they going to find evidence of those fetuses? Isn`t that just the girl`s report right now?
COOMBS: Well, so far. But that`s what the prosecutor is doing (ph) is going to gather the evidence so that he can be able to prove these charges, but the laws are on the book. So, they`ll be able to do it.
PINSKY: Got to go, guys. Thank you so much. Thank you to my co- host, Christi Paul. Thank you all for watching. I`ll see you next time. And, just a reminder, "HLN After Dark" begins right now.