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Suspect is Father of Victim`s 6-year-old Daughter; Is Jodi Suicidal?

Aired May 10, 2013 - 19:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, coming to you from the Lower Buckeye Jail here in Phoenix, Arizona. Somewhere in this vast jail facility, perhaps behind the barbed wire over there, Jodi Arias sits in the psych ward on suicide watch. Major developments in the Jodi Arias case. We`re going to tell you all about it.

But first, we`ve got to go out to Cleveland, because there is major breaking news out of the case involving that so-called Cleveland house of horrors.


AMANDA BERRY, KIDNAPPING SURVIVOR (via phone): I`ve been kidnapped. I`ve been missing for ten years and I`m here. I`m free now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Amanda Berry, Gina DeJesus and Michelle Knight have been found and are alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ariel Castro, charged with kidnapping and rape.

CHARLES RAMSEY, NEIGHBOR: She said, "Help me get out. I`ve been in here a long time."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (via phone): As soon as we get a car open.

BERRY: No, I need them now before he gets back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) this horrifying ordeal for more than a decade.

ANGIE GREGG, ARIEL CASTRO`S DAUGHTER: Everything is making sense now. It`s all adding up. And I`m -- I`m disgusted. I`m horrified.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I went to ask her if the house was on fire. She told me no, that "I`ve been kidnapped for ten years."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My first reaction, I saw my daughter. The only thing did I was grab her and hug her. I didn`t want to let go.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: This story is something out of a ghoulish horror movie. Cops say 52-year-old Ariel Castro, a musician and former school bus driver, if you can believe that, abducted three young women in three consecutive years from the very same block. We`re talking 2002, 2003, 2004.

Cops say he kept them captive, these three women, in his modest Cleveland home for about a decade, where cops believe they were essentially tortured. He is charged with multiple counts of rape.

And most tragically, perhaps, there is a 6-year-old girl named Jocelyn who appears to have been born in captivity.

For the very latest on these breaking developments, let`s go to Jennifer Lindgren, reporter, WKYC. What do you know? We`re learning more about this precious 6-year-old girl, who appears to have been born in captivity?

JENNIFER LINDGREN, REPORTER, WKYC: That`s right, Jane. And the latest we`ve learned on that is from the Ohio attorney general who says a DNA test confirmed that this 6-year-old girl, Amanda Berry`s daughter, was fathered by Ariel Castro. There were many people who suspected that, but DNA tests have confirmed that that is true.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, all of this erupted on Monday when a woman screams, alerted a couple of neighbors that something very wrong was going on in this house in Cleveland. Two neighbors, it`s been reported, helped a woman get out. And here is the extraordinary 911 call where this woman says, "Oh, my gosh, I`m free, help me." Listen.


BERRY (via phone): I`ve been kidnapped, and I`ve been missing for ten years and I`m here. I`m free now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. What`s your address?

BERRY: 2207 Seymour Avenue.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 2207 Seymour. It looks like you`re calling from 2210.

BERRY: I can`t hear you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It looks like you were calling me from 2210 Seymour.

BERRY: I`m across the street. I`m using their phone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Stay there with those neighbors.

BERRY: Please help me. OK.



VELEZ-MITCHELL: Such a gut-wrenching 911 call. "America`s Most Wanted" and major news organizations covered the abductions of these three women. They were big missing women cases in Cleveland and around the nation.

And so what`s extraordinary is, Lisa Bloom, you`ve covered so many of these cases. You`re an attorney who has seen it all. I thought I had seen it all until I saw this case. Three women kept in captivity in one 1,400- square-foot home by this guy. And his daughter says she didn`t know. Friends, neighbors, everybody saying they had no idea.

LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: It is shocking, Jane. We`re hearing the three women were kept mostly separate. Occasionally, they could interact with each other. But it`s like they were in solitary confinement, imprisoned in this man`s home. You know, raped, beaten. I think we have to say the words for what happened to them, because if they had to endure it, the least we can do is call it what it is.

One of them was forced to have five miscarriages after she got pregnant from the rapes by this man. He would starve her for two weeks at a time, according to the police report, and then punch her stomach until -- until she miscarried. That could be aggravated murder, fetal homicide in the state of Ohio. It could lead to the death penalty. So I`m looking for more charges from this prosecutor.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And what`s extraordinary is that cops believe this 6- year-old girl, Jocelyn, was born into this hellish world in captivity. Let`s listen to, I believe it`s the daughter of the suspect, talk about the fact that she had absolutely no idea but thought it was a little strange, the way her dad kept talking about this mysterious child. Listen to this.


GREGG: He showed me a picture that was in his cell phone randomly. And he said, "Look at this cute little girl." It was a face shot.

And I said, "She`s cute. Who is that?" You know?

And he said, "This is my girlfriend`s child."

And I said, "Dad, that girl looks like Emily." Emily is my younger sister.

And he said, "No, that`s -- that`s not my child. That`s my girlfriend`s child by somebody else."

And I said, "Dad, that looks like Emily."

You know, he denied it again.

I said, "Dad, look at the nose. That looks just like Emily."

And he said -- he started getting vague. He said, "Well, it could be, we`ve been together for a long time. I mean, I just don`t know," and then the subject changed.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: There were so many missed opportunities, apparently, to catch this monster. In 2008, there is dash cam video of him being questioned by a police officer. Something about his vehicle. His motorcycle. But he drives away.

Wendy Walsh, psychologist, neighbors saw at one point a woman naked in his backyard. Other people said, oh, he would go to McDonald`s every day and come back with all this food. But he was the only one living there. Things didn`t add up, but nobody put the pieces together.

WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Nobody was able to put the pieces together, because we`re living in an increasing -- increasingly isolated condition, Jane. The average American only has two friends nowadays. Forty years ago this would not have happened. We would have had friends and family and neighbors. A guy didn`t live alone for that period of time with nobody entering his house.

We`re becoming more dissociated from society, just connected to our televisions and our computers. And for those who have, you know, mental problems or criminal behavior, it allows them to have this privacy; to have this awful torturous private life.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let`s listen to more of that extraordinary 911 call where Amanda Berry, who is the mother of the 6-year-old girl who cops say was born in captivity, makes it out of the house thanks to a couple of neighbors and calls 911. Listen to this, because you`ll fall off your chair.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Talk to the police when they get there.

BERRY (via phone): OK. Hello?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Talk to the police when they get there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Are they on their way right now?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`ll get them as soon as we get a car open.

BERRY: No, I need them now, before he gets back.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re sending them. OK?

BERRY: OK, I mean like right now!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who`s the guy -- you`re trying -- who`s the guy who went out?

BERRY: His name is Ariel Castro.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. How old is he?

BERRY: He`s like 52.


BERRY: And I`m Amanda Berry. I`ve been in the news for the last ten years.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: We see video now of Amanda Berry. These women, I mean, at times they were starved, according to authorities. This is a nightmare.

I want to go back to Jennifer Lindgren, reporter WKYC out of Cleveland. I understand, though, the good news is that Michelle Knight, one of them, has just been released from the hospital. What is their condition? Where are these women now?

LINDGREN: Well, first of all, we know that Michelle was released this afternoon from the hospital. The hospital, because of privacy laws, wouldn`t comment on why she was admitted to begin with. Or what kind of conditions she is.

But we know that she was in good health when she went in. We`re just not sure what kind of complications they had to check out at the hospital.

She`s been released back into the community, essentially. We know that her immediate family has not had any luck making contact with her. She has asked for some privacy, even from her family members, at this time.

And as for Gina and Amanda, we know that those two women were welcomed home by the community, by their immediate families. And both of them just trying to rest and rehabilitate and just get a grip on this shocking but wonderful improvement to their lives.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, yes, thank God they were found alive. We`ve covered so many stories on this show. I`ve covered so many stories over the years where women are never found. Their families never get closure.

Unfortunately, one of the mothers of one of these girls did die before she found out that her loved one, her beautiful daughter, had been found. That is a horror story, and it`s a tragedy.

We`ve got more on the other side including controversy. Were there many missed opportunities to catch this sicko? And why wasn`t he caught?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Amanda, you hang in there, honey. You be strong. I`m praying for you, and I love you.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He talks about killing himself. He says that he`s a sexual predator. In the note, he says he`s sick. He isn`t sure what is wrong in his head, that he needs help. He also, as I mentioned, talks about killing himself and then, when he`s dead, taking all the money that he saved and giving it to his victims. He says, "My victims."


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That is a local reporter from WOIO. We`re going back to Jennifer Lindgren, also there in Cleveland.

What do we know about this so-called confession note? A note, a diary. We`re hearing a lot about that.

LINDGREN: There`s a report that Ariel Castro wrote a suicide note back in 2004 also telling authorities he did not have an exit plan to get out of this. He called himself a cold-blooded individual. From what I understand, that note was recovered after authorities went into the house.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me ask you this question, Jennifer. I want to jump in and ask you this question.

In 2005, according to published reports, he was accused of domestic violence by his common law wife. And there was all sorts of legal issues about a protection order that was put against him and then set aside. How is it possible that he`s involved in that tumult in 2005 with a common-law wife when he`s got three women in the basement of his house at the time?

LINDGREN: Yes, that`s a very good question. We`ve heard that he had -- no charges were pressed against him in that particular case.

And everybody that we`ve spoken to in the community who has been in that house before even recently says it is a little odd inside. You know, he made excuses about living like a bachelor, but people say they never were able to get past seeing just his living-room area. And that the five locks he had on his door were just his excuses for maintaining his own personal safety.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is it possible, Jennifer -- Jennifer, is it possible he had a common-law wife at the same time that he`s brutalizing, cops say, these three women over a period of years? There`s an overlap there. It doesn`t make any sense.

LINDGREN: Yes, I agree with you. You know, I don`t know a lot about the common-law wife in this particular case.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It doesn`t -- it doesn`t make sense. It does -- none of it makes sense that -- that nobody could have noticed something was really, really strange.

Now his daughter is speaking out saying, "Please don`t judge his family. We are not monster blood" Listen to what she has to say. She said, "He is dead to me." Check this out.


GREGG: I can`t forgive him. Like, there`s no way. And you know, the main emotion that I have, besides gratitude that these girls are home, is disgust. You know, when I really sit down and start thinking about him, I -- I literally want to vomit.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brian Silber, attorney, this happens every time. Remember the Jaycee Dugard case? All the time, we get these incredible stories that are horror shows and then we find out that, oh, in retrospect, yes, it is really odd that he would walk around with a 6-year-old girl saying, "Hi, this is my girlfriend`s daughter." Then go back into the house, and then leave alone when he`s a bachelor. So who`s taking care of the 6-year-old daughter? Nobody put together the pieces.

BRIAN SILBER, ATTORNEY: Well, that`s because a common thread we see with these types of cases is that the offenders are living a dual life. They have their life that they, you know, portray to the public and the people that know them. And then they have this weird, secret, crazy life that they keep in their basement.

And that`s very common with these type of psychopaths. You know, they have that public personality. And then that bizarre, crazy criminal personality. And that`s why I think it explains this type of behavior.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, psychologist Wendy Walsh, as we look at video of this man, I mean, to me, supposedly the bass player in a band. He was fired or stopped being a school bus driver a couple of years ago.

I mean, the bizarre part is that people said he seemed affable. They would often talk to him out on the street. He wasn`t a recluse. Usually people who are doing things like this are really reclusive. This guy was kind of brazen, out and about in the neighborhood.

WALSH: That`s the misunderstanding. The thought that, if somebody is a sociopath or a psychopath, that it permeates every single part of their life. In fact, they can have this duality. They can compartmentalize.

You know, even in our own private or close intimate relationships, we know that we have public and private personalities. I often say that, in healthy relationships even, we save the most sadistic parts of our personality for those we love the most.

But in this case this guy really was a sadist, right? And this really was criminal behavior.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is one of the sickest cases. But unlike so many other cases, where we`re left with this gut-wrenching feeling that just the horror never ends, at least the horror has ended for these three women. At least they`re out and this beautiful 6-year-old girl has a chance to live her life.

On the other side, more of the so-called confession note diary. We don`t know exactly what it is, but this is the other side of this monster. We`ll show it to you.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why are you covering your face? What do you say to those women? How could you do that? What kind of monster does this?




GREGG: We don`t have monster in our blood.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You look at your dad. You would call him a monster?

GREGG: Yes. Yes. There will be no visits. There will be no phone calls. He`s dead to me.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s the suspect, Ariel Castro`s, daughter saying, "Our dad is dead to us." She, another victim, in a sense, of this horror.

There is supposedly some sort of note. A confession note, a diary. But Scott Taylor, a reporter with WOIO, had obtained information on this note by the suspect. Let`s check it out.


SCOTT TAYLOR, REPORTER, WOIO: He says that he only did bad things to three women. Just a total of three women. He also says that he has no feeling, no feeling for the bad things that he`s done.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, there you heard it. Lisa Bloom. Here`s a guy who says, "I`ve only hurt three women." I mean, that right there says everything you need to know about this individual.

BLOOM: You know, there really aren`t words for this man. He`s a narcissist; he`s a monster. His own family knows it. You know, he raped and beat and brutalized and held captive three women for ten years.

And this little 6-year-old girl and his own daughter he held in captivity. Never able to go to a doctor or a dentist. Never able to see the light of day, to have friends, to go to school. I mean, this man needs to be locked up for the rest of his life.

I`m sure he is a sociopath and frankly, you know, he`s right when he says he has no feelings. Like, I think that`s who he is.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you know what strikes me, these three women are reportedly all abducted from the same block. So after the first one is abducted from that block, then the next year, the second one. You think they would set up cameras to monitor whether or not this is a pattern. Because had they done so, they would have caught him abducting, say cops, the third woman in 2004. So a lesson there.

Now I will tell you this. We`ve got a lot going on in the Jodi Arias case. In the jail facility behind me, Jodi Arias sits right now in the psych ward on suicide watch. That is up next.


JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED OF MURDER: I wanted to go home and act as normal as I could for the time being. I didn`t know what to think. I just wanted to die.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Count one, first-degree murder guilty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her mother came here. Her mother was turned away, because Jodi was under watch.

ARIAS: Listen, if I`m found guilty, I don`t have a life.

I sat there and I couldn`t bring myself to do it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had just said, "I want to die." Boom, that person goes in a locked facility.

ARIAS: I just want it to be done. I want it to be done.

If I hurt Travis, if I killed Travis, I would beg for the death penalty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jodi under watch tonight.

(END VIDEO CLIP) VELEZ-MITCHELL: Will Jodi live? Will Jodi die? Should Jodi Arias live? Should Jodi Arias die? Those are some of the big questions being asked here in Phoenix, Arizona.

Tonight, I am outside the Lower Buckeye Jail. And this is where Jodi Arias has been transferred to now that she is on suicide watch. So take a look. It`s a vast facility. Vast. And somewhere out there, barbed wire. And somewhere in this facility behind the barbed wire is Jodi Arias. On suicide watch. In the psych ward.

And that was triggered by the extraordinary interview that she gave to a local TV station, KSAZ, about 20 minutes after she was convicted of murder one in the vicious willing of Travis Alexander. And in that extraordinary interview, she broke down sobbing. Check it out.


ARIAS: I can`t talk right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that the hardest part? Thinking about your mom?

ARIAS: Yes. My mom and my whole family. Yes. That`s difficult. And as far as my mom, I feel like I don`t deserve her. She`s been a saint, and I`ve not treated her very well.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: An extraordinarily emotional interview where Jodi Arias breaks down talking about her mother and her family. Meantime. her mother has tried to get in here to the Lower Buckeye Jail to see her daughter.

HLN legal correspondent Jean Casarez, you`ve been monitoring the situation outside the jail. What have you...

JEAN CASAREZ, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we believed that her mother was going to be able to go in and be a visitor to Jodi. Because when you`re on general suicide watch, your immediate family is allowed inside.

But Jodi`s mother came. She went through the visitor`s entrance just like anybody else, but came out about ten minutes later and told me she was not allowed to see her daughter because she was on watch.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now that must have been very emotional in the sense that she was shaky, obviously, after the verdict, where she listens as they pronounce her daughter guilty of murder one in the killing of Travis Alexander. And then she tries to visit her daughter here and is denied. What was her emotional state?

CASAREZ: Well, here`s what`s interesting. Right after her daughter was convicted of first degree murder at the Estrella jail, she was allowed in for 33 minutes, a visit. But when she was transferred right here to the psychiatric ward, that`s when she was denied access.

We`ve learned there are various levels of suicide watch. And on your very basic level, she would have been allowed as a visitor. So what level is Jodi on right now? And that determination is made by medical professionals.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And did something happen? In other words, did it get worse? Did something with her behavior get worse that first her mom can see her and then her mom can`t?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: It is unbelievable. Of course, the whole reason she`s put on suicide watch is because she said something that made the sheriff here, very well known sheriff Joe Arpaio, very concerned. She said she wanted death. She didn`t want life in prison. Listen to this.


JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED OF MURDER ONE: At the time I had plans to commit suicide. I was extremely confident that no jury would convict because I didn`t expect any of you to be here. I didn`t expect to be here.

Double bladed razors that you`re allowed to just keep with you and I took it apart one night with the intentions of slitting my wrists -- I didn`t know what to think. I just wanted to die. I was formulating plans to commit suicide on my return trip. But I did after that.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jean Casarez, what is life on suicide watch like?

CASAREZ: Well, here`s what we`ve learned. The whole point is that they don`t want someone to commit suicide so you want to make a lifestyle that does not promote that. What we`re learning is that there are no clothes except paper gowns. There`s only finger food. No utensils. We do know her meals are brought to the cell. Obviously no razors or dangerous items. Often they`re enclosed in clear plexiglass. Of course, that is depending upon the level you are and also we do know she is able to go to the day room where there is television.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And she is being evaluated by shrinks --

CASAREZ: By psychologists, psychiatrists and nurses. That`s a good point because she goes to the medical unit of that psychological ward when she is under evaluation.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Unbelievable. All right. Let`s debate it with our expert panel. It is time for a debate. Is Jodi Arias suicidal or is this another ploy for attention, for sympathy? Is she just playing the martyr card?

Let`s start with Lisa Bloom from What do you think? Is she suicidal?

LISA BLOOM, AVO.COM: You know, I can`t know the answer to that question. I understand all of the skeptics out there. She`s just been convicted of first-degree murder. She is staring down the death penalty. And so the jails have to do what they`re doing. They have to treat her as though she is suicidal because we are a civilized society and we don`t let people commit suicide behind bars.

BRIAN SILBER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Maybe because they`re about to stick a needle in her arm and kill her. That`s a good reason to be a little depressed. But what I find that`s funny about all of this is that Sheriff Arpaio of all people is the first person in law enforcement to believe something said by Jodi Arias.

BLOOM: It`s a very serious subject. I don`t really like to joke about it. But people who really are, tend not to talk about it. They tend just to do it. But she`s come out and said she wants to be put to death. She would volunteer for the death penalty. That`s suicide for court. I say don`t just say that to the cameras, instruct your attorneys to volunteer for the death penalty.

It can be done. It has been done by women on death row in Arizona. You know, the proof is what she does in court.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendy Walsh, psychologist, what do you say? What do you say Wendy?

WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: I think that obviously talking about a plan for suicide is definitely one of the risk factors for suicide. However, this is a young woman who has continued to manipulate everybody in her world for many, many years.

So is she hoping some of this will leak to the jury and she is trying to manipulate them into thinking she wants the death penalty? Then we`re not going to have her -- we`re not going to give her what she wants. We`ll give her life in prison.

So she could be trying to manipulate the jury.


WALSH: On the other hand, I think they`re wise to put her under watch because it is a very clear risk factor when you talk about a plan for suicide.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I have to say when I watch that interview and when she broke down talking about her mother, I think the facade is shattering. I think she is finally starting to see this is real, that this is actually happening. I think that she was in such a state of denial and grandiosity.

Actually, listen, on Sunday before she is convicted, she leaves a voicemail with this reporter who got this interview with her. His name is Troy Hayden. She calls him on Sunday and says "Hey, Troy, if for some reason I happen to get murder one, I want to you come down. I want to talk to you. If for some reason -- listen to this. It is extraordinary.


ARIAS: Hi Troy, Jodi Arias. It is Sunday. I wanted to let you know, a deal is a deal so I regret saying that but I`m a person of my word so I`ll keep our deal. I also wanted to let you know if for some reason the jury come back with first degree, you come down to the jail. I`m not sure how it will go. I have an idea but I don`t want to wait. So I tend to get back from court around 6:00, 6:30. (inaudible) So that`s cool. We can go for it.

If it is second-degree or less I will wait until after sentencing but if it is first degree, come down right away. If it is second-degree or less wait until after -- that`s it. Take care. Bye.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Evan Bolick, you are an attorney.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: I have never seen or heard anything so extraordinary. Before she is convicted, she is trying to set up a TV interview in the event that she is convicted of the most serious charge.

BOLICK: You know, just the gall of Jodi Arias is shocking. And that`s why we`ve been captivated here for four months and, you know, even before that. I`ve never seen anything like it for someone looking to parlay first-degree murder conviction into an interview. It is something I hope not to face.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It is like being on TV is more important to her than whether she lives or dies. That`s crazy.

BOLICK: Right.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is Jodi Arias crazy? We`ll debate it on the other side. Stay right there.


KIRK NURMI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It is not even about whether or not you like Jodi Arias. Nine days out of ten, I don`t like Jodi Arias. But that doesn`t matter. Your liking her or not liking her does not objectively assess the evidence. It is about evidence. What happened?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: As the Jodi Arias trial reaches a dramatic conclusion, we`re gearing up for another unbelievable murder trial. This woman, Karen Kelly, is accused of murdering her boyfriend at her Florida home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Get somebody here quick. He was shot in the head with a gun.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Will this accused murderess blame the victim like Jodi blames Travis Alexander?

KAREN KELLY, ACCUSED OF KILLING BOYFRIEND: I didn`t shoot him. He took gun and shot himself.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`ll be all over it. You don`t want to miss it.



ARIAS: No jury is going to convict me.


ARIAS: Because I`m innocent. And you can mark my words on that one. No jury will convict me.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I am here outside the lower Buckeye jail. Somewhere in this vicinity, Jodi Arias is on suicide watch in a psych ward all because she said she wanted to die. Check this out and then we are going to debate, should Jodi Arias be put to death? Stay right there.


ARIAS: I said years ago that I would rather get death than life and that is still true today. I believe death is the ultimate freedom. So I would rather just have my freedom as soon as I can get it.

TROY HAYDEN, FOX 10 CORRESPONDENT: So you`re saying you actually prefer getting the death penalty to being in prison for life?



VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. And Jodi also smiling inappropriately quite often. Let`s debate it. Eventually we are going to get to the aggravation phase. Eventually the jurors will be faced with the question, should Jodi die? For the death penalty, pro death penalty attorney -- Evan Bolick; against the death penalty, anti-death penalty attorney for, Lisa Bloom. Starting with Evan Bolick.

BOLICK: Yes. She absolutely should get the death penalty. The death penalty is an extraordinary sentence but this is an extraordinary crime. She would have gotten first-degree murder if she had only just stabbed him or only just shot him or only slit his throat. Instead she planned it out. She mutilated him. And she took photos of her handy work. There needs to be a punishment greater than life when you`ve committed a crime that is that cruel and that heinous and death penalty is it.


BLOOM: You know, I`m opposed to the death penalty in all cases. I used to be for it, watching these horrible cases you get so angry at somebody like Jodi Arias. We`re one of the last developed countries on earth that still executes our own people. We know for a fact that innocent people have been put to death. We know that the system is administered by human beings and human beings are always going to make mistakes and I don`t think we can tolerate the possibility of a mistake when it is irreversible with a sentence of death.

We also know that the death penalty is racially biased in its administration. If there is a white victim, an African-American defendant, the odds are overwhelming that person is going to get the death penalty but not the case if it is reversed. So I`m opposed to the death penalty in all cases.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Rebuttal? Rebuttal by Evan Bolick.


BOLICK: Thank you, Jane. This case, none of those factors are really at play here. The innocence isn`t even really in doubt. Jodi knows she killed him and said she killed him. What we actually need to guard against is vigilantism. She is not the Punisher or Batman or some super hero. What she is, is a cold-blooded murder. And she needs to face the ultimate penalty of her willful actions that she took here against Travis and that`s the only way to get justice for Travis` family.


BLOOM: It is not the only way to get justice. Life in prison without the possibility of parole is also justice. You know the problem with the death penalty, it`s very expensive. It`s much more expensive than life without parole because we guarantee so many things which we have to do if we`re going to put somebody to death.


BOLICK: Right. But she is going to appeal even if she only got a life sentence.

BLOOM: You don`t get the same number of appeals automatically.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know what`s complicating all this is that she says she wants to be put to death. This is what is complicating it. It is a very clear cut debate and people have been having it for a long time whether they`re in favor of the death penalty or against it.

But complicating this issue is the fact that Jodi Arias, and you heard it right here on the show. It has been played many times now since she said this after the verdict. She said she wants to be put to death. So what are her defense attorneys going to do? Because eventually she is going to have to come out of the psych ward, eventually she`s going to have to face those jurors who convicted her. Eventually those jurors are going to have decide -- will we put Jodi to death or not?

We`re going to debate that on the other side.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight`s Pet of the Day is dedicated to Travis Alexander who loved animals, who had a dog named Napoleon who`s being cared for by a dear friend and who also was fighting for the rights of other animals. We`re going to talk about that on the other side with the Animal Defender`s League of Arizona about all the beautiful work being done for animals here in Arizona.



TRAVIS ALEXANDER, MURDER VICTIM: I`m going to tie you to a tree and (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

ARIAS: What`s that?

ALEXANDER: I`m going to tie you to a tree and put it in your (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

ARIAS: Oh my gosh, that is so debasing. I like it.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Who says something like that? At least a lot of people do ask this question but let`s debate it. Is Jodi Arias crazy? And one side we`ve got Simone Bienne, relationship expert; on the other side, psychologist Wendy Walsh. And I know you`re going to say psychologist Wendy Walsh, no that`s not a technical term. It`s not. So how would you like to put it? What is wrong with her -- how about that?

Walsh: Ok. Well, what we have to understand is crazy is not a technical term but we have to think of two definitions of crazy that we band around all the time, Jane. The first one, of course is, is she legally insane. And clearly she isn`t. She knew the consequences of her actions and she could withstand trial and understand what was going on.

But does she have a personality disorder? Absolutely. Is she a sociopath? Absolutely. And these are the people who gets --


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on. Hold on a second.

Simone Bienne, what say you?

SIMONE BIENNE, RELATIONSHIP EXPERT: Look, I feel sad for this situation. Not for Jodi Arias. I`m not saying what she did is anything other than a heinous crime except the fact -- I believe this story didn`t have to have the nightmare ending it has had to Travis. If there was some intervention early on, this is a woman who feels she has been a victim from her childhood up until her adulthood.

Yes she has a personality disorder. She`s clearly not a healthy woman. She`s tried to commit suicide before. We need to pay attention to this because there are plenty more Jodi Ariases everywhere around in the world. We need to do better, as a society, to prevent this.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree with you. Absolutely. Listen, when she was 14, according to her parents talking on the police interrogation tape she never told them the truth after she was 14. And Wendy Walsh, isn`t adolescence where mental illness starts often?

WALSH: Sometimes the symptomology can come out but I often say that it is the early years, the preverbal memories that get stored in the bones that can cause the most damage and that`s age zero to 3. But I will say, you know, it is true there are plenty of women out there suffering silently because our culture has told them to adopt a male model of sexuality that does not make sense with their biology, Jane.

Let me tell you this, the more sexual partners a young woman has had the more likely she is to be on an antidepressant. And the more young men are consuming pornography they are pressuring young girls to do things that they don`t feel comfortable with.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me say this. Here`s what I think. I think she suffers from disassociative personality disorder. I think -- and this is not to excuse her -- she is guilty and she did a premeditated crime in my book. But I think she views her life as a movie and doesn`t think it is real. And that`s why she does these outrageous things. It`s like she is a script writer writing her own story as she lives it out.

I think the moment that she cracked and actually started feeling that it was true was the moment that she ended up guilty murder one. That`s when the reality started hitting her, during the interview where she cried and she said oh, my God, my mother, my family. What have I done?

On the other side, here in Arizona, Travis Alexander was an animal lover. What animal lovers in Arizona are doing in honor of Travis?


NURMI: In that tape, you said that no jury would convict you. Do you remember saying that? Remember saying that?

ARIAS: Yes, I did say that.


ARIAS: At the time I had plans to commit suicide. I was extremely confident that no jury would convict me because I didn`t expect any of you to be here. I didn`t expect to be here.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was larger than life and this is not by chance that so many people are here to support him. I love you Travis. I`m wearing hearts and blue for you today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope that we did enough to explain who he was and maybe that will live on. Maybe people will realize who he really was.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Travis Alexander loved animals. His precious dog Napoleon is being cared for by a dear friend. Another dear friend Shawn Alexander told me that he and Travis watched the movie "Earthlings" which I would recommend to everyone which talks about animal suffering particularly the suffering of factory farm animals, 9 billion of them -- pigs unable to ever turn around.

And he was determined to do something about it. And he would be happy to know that here in Arizona there is so much being done to help animals, all animals. Here`s the Animal Defense League of Arizona. What`s being done to help animals?

KAREN MICHAEL, ANIMAL DEFENSE LEAGUE OF ARIZONA: Well, Arizona residents love animals. And this cuts across the political spectrum, the socio-economic spectrum. And Arizona voters have -- at the ballot box we banned trapping on public land. We banned cockfighting and we banned the cruel confinement of pregnant pigs and veal calves --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You actually -- you accomplished a lot of what Travis Alexander wanted to accomplish and has devoted his life to. Thank you so much, ladies.

I have to tell you, more than anything else people in Arizona come up to me say "Thank you for doing animal work, Jane. Keep doing it on your show."

Nancy, next.