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DNA Shows Castro Fathered Berry's Child; Who is Ariel Castro?

Aired May 10, 2013 - 21:00   ET


ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.


Tonight, breaking news out of Cleveland where three women were held for a decade. This is, of course, the case that's shocking America. Tonight, the DNA results are back, and it shows that Ariel Castro is the father of Amanda Berry's 6-year-old daughter.

Are there other children, though? What about the other victims? Authorities are not comparing his DNA with several national databases.

Plus, late developments in the case against Castro, and the cell he was now being held in.

And did he play favorites?

We'll get to that in a moment.

Also, a homecoming 10 years in the making. Michelle Knight is finally out of hospital released today. Along with Amanda Berry, and Gina DeJesus, she is free after years of unspeakable crimes allegedly committed by Castro.

All of that as we focus tonight on a man that many considered a monster. Who is he? How could he or anyone do this? You'll hear from friends, neighbors and his former band leader, and how his constant rejection from women may have played a key part in his sinister report.

A lot to get to this evening. We'll begin with newest details from Cleveland, WOIO reporters Ed Gallek and Scott Taylor, who have been covering this extraordinary case from the beginning. They join me now with the latest.

Welcome to you guys.

Let me start with you, if I may, Scott.

I'm fascinated by this letter. I first knew about this because you tweeted about it. I want you to bring me up to speed with what is in this letter and how significant it may turn out to be in understanding the kind of person Ariel Castro is?

SCOTT TAYLOR, WOIO REPORTER: I think when investigators get through with this letter, they're going to have a good idea of who this guy is, if he indeed wrote this letter in 2004. And remember, that -- I believe that investigators believe that he wrote the letter after he had all the three women tied up and gagged in his basement. He basically says, admits that he is a sexual predator. He talks about that he is sick, he needs help, that he has a problem with his head.

Now, he also talks about what it seems to be one of his favorites, that would be Amanda, and also that would be Gina. He talked about a closeness, believe it or not, between Gina and her parents. We're talking about Nancy, and we're talking about Felix.

He wrote that he did not realize that Gina was 14 years old, thought that she was a lot older. He even said that he didn't realize -- now he knew Nancy, he knew the DeJesus family, knew Felix, but didn't realize Gina was his daughter. And he also didn't know that he didn't know, wasn't his daughter, and also didn't know that Felix was a classmate of him until seeing what's going on TV, obviously.

And then we reached out to Felix today, just to make sure if that was true or not. And Felix DeJesus said, yes, I did go to Lincoln West High School in Cleveland with him briefly, but we were not best buddies.

MORGAN: OK. Let's go to Ed __.

You've got new information about the questioning of Ariel Castro today. Tell me about that and where he's being held and what kind of condition he's in mentally about all this.

ED GALLEK, WOIO REPORTER: Here's what I'm hearing about the interrogation. Ariel Castro never fully confessed but yet he never really denied anything either. He tried to justify or explain what happened, even pass off some of the sex as consensual.

Now, Castro also spent four to five hours with investigators in questioning one day, and then another time he spent an hour or two with the investigators.

So, you wonder why he would spend that much time with the investigators and never fully coming clean unless he's trying to talk his way out of it.

Right now, he is sitting in jail. He's in a solo cell by himself. It's a very small cell with just a small bed, really a piece of metal with a slight mat on it, a toilet, and a place to look out a window, and that's a glass block window. So you can't really see out of that. And a tiny little window about this big that looks out into the cell.

If he looks out into the cell, he's going to see a guard watching him because he's under security suicide precaution, as they call it, basically, a suicide watch. There's a guard watching him, another guard watching other cells in the pod.

The other prisoners in that pod will have time for TV time. They'll also have time for exercise time. Not Castro, at least not yet.

MORGAN: He's had DNA tests done very quickly. What we know is that he's been ruled out of any connection to any links to Ohio cases of a similar nature. They know that.

He's now maybe moving to a more federal database check. Is that right?

GALLEK: Right. The attorney general for Ohio looked at Ohio crimes and found no match. Then that DNA has been sent to the FBI to do a national database search. And that will check the surrounding states all over the country really.

And consider Ohio maybe an hour or so to the east, and you'll be in the Pennsylvania border, and maybe two to three hours, and you'll be in West Virginia, Indiana.

So if this guy traveled, he wouldn't have had to go very far to do something else if he wanted to, and that's one of the things they'll certainly be checking.

Important to note, though, those databases only show crimes investigators know about where evidence was gathered. It won't show a crime that hasn't been discovered yet. So it's possible that it will not tell us all of the secrets.

MORGAN: Right.

One good bit of news today, Michelle Knight has been discharged finally from hospital. She posted on Facebook she's in good spirits, extremely grateful for the flowers and gifts she received, and very grateful for the support of the Cleveland Courage Fund. That is excellent news.

Thank you to Scott Taylor and to Ed Gallek, thank you very much indeed.

Tonight so much we don't know about Ariel Castro, but new information about the life he had in public and the one he kept secret from the world.

CNN's Martin Savidge is in Cleveland. We asked him to give us the portrait of a man accused of doing monstrous things.


REPORTER: Why are you covering your face? What do you have to say to those women? How could you do that? What kind of monster does this?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is the question that haunts everyone -- victims, police, an entire city. How did 52-year-old Ariel Castro become the monster that's horrified America? I found some of the answers on the back shelves of a corner grocery with inside of the so-called house of horrors.

Here, Ariel's uncle tells me the Castro family story.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was a sweet person.

SAVIDGE: Castro was born in a small rural town in Puerto Rico. His family came to Cleveland when he was 6.

He grew up on the city's near west side, a working class neighborhood where work was getting harder and harder to find. Relatives say Ariel was raised by his mother and didn't get along with his father. He dropped out of school in the tenth grade.

Ariel taught himself to play bass, and he joined a band, playing salsa and meringue in clubs around town. He was popular with band mates and their families. That's where Bianca Cruz met him as a child.

BIANCA CRUZ, KNOWS ARIEL CASTRO: Well, I actually remember a lot of things. I remember always going to concerts and spending time with the band backstage.

SAVIDGE: Friends say they saw two very different Ariel Castros, the one who came alive on stage, and the other, shy and caring offstage.

CRUZ: It was always him playing with hi hair, him being super nice to me. You just wouldn't picture -- you wouldn't imagine he'd do something like this.

SAVIDGE: But he could be incredibly violent, say court documents. In 2005, Castro was accused of savagely beating his wife, breaking her ribs, her nose, dislocating her shoulders, and triggering a blood clot on the brain, all the while threatening to kill her and her daughter.

And shocking to many now, Castro was also a school bus driver, but eventually lost that job after officials say he left a child on a bus, and another time used the bus to go grocery shopping.

But those problems gave no hint of the horrors going on behind closed doors to the kidnapping, rape, and 10 years of torture Castro is accused of carrying out on Amanda Berry, Gina DeJesus, and Michelle Knight.

Neighbors wonder how they missed it -- and now, so does Ariel Castro's daughter, forever haunted by the missed clues hidden in the locked up house and her father's bizarre behavior.

ANGIE GREGG, ARIEL CASTRO'S DAUGHTER: He would disappear for an hour or so and then come back, and there would be no explanation where he went. Everything is making sense now. It's all adding up, and I'm disgusted. I'm horrified.

SAVIDGE: Back in the grocery, Ariel's uncle says he has the answer to the question we started with. Ariel, he says, are two people in one body: the monster and our sweet nephew.


SAVIDGE: It would be obvious to ask the question of the family, Piers, how is it that you could not know this was going on? And the family points out that, look, there were neighbors just a few feet away from him for over 10 years in all of this horror, and they didn't know either.

So, right now, many people are just dumbfounded -- Piers.

MORGAN: Yes. It's extraordinary, and that package is extraordinary because it confirms what we've heard all week, which is that literally nobody else in the world appears to have a clue that this depravity was happening right under their noses.

What I was struck by was the interviews with the two daughters, and the second with CNN yesterday. Very nice, normal, intelligent, well-spoken, thoughtful young women, who believed their father until five days ago was this very loving, normal dad and grandfather. It just is extraordinary, isn't it?

SAVIDGE: Yes, it is. It is. It's like a mask was suddenly ripped off, and the man that you knew, the father you knew, the brother you knew is exposed as -- well, as the uncle referred to him, as the devil. And it's a horrific shock if what they say is true.

And it's astounding to everyone in the family that they realize life had been a lie for them, which is why it's very easy for many of them to say we cut him off. We -- because he's not -- he's not the brother we knew. He's not the person we knew.

It's almost as if they can accept a death even though he's very much alive.

MORGAN: Yes, absolutely extraordinary. Martin, thank you very much indeed for that excellent report.

Tito DeJesus has known Ariel Castro for 20 years. They played music together, and he's been at the Castro house many times. And Tito DeJesus joins me now.

Tito, I spoke to you earlier in the week. You give a fascinating insight into Ariel Castro, also saying, as everyone else has done, you never had a clue really about the kind of man he was. But what I think is interesting about you tonight, you've had time to think about this -- you've read and heard about what he did, and you remembered something about him in terms of his behavior around women.

And I want you to talk to me about that first.

TITO DEJESUS, FRIEND OF ARIEL CASTRO: When we used to go performing, he was alone all the time. He wanted to always see if he could go out and dance with women, strangers.

So he would go pick out somebody and say, want to dance? And many, many times, they would say no. He would come back to me upset. And I would tell him, stop doing that. You're just going to embarrass yourself. He said, I'm going to try again. I'm like, don't do it. A lot of women don't like to dance with strangers.

But he kept going, I want to dance. I want to dance. And mostly every time, he would come back very mad because they didn't want to dance with him.

And many times I would joke around with him and say, you shouldn't do that. You're going to embarrass yourself.

MORGAN: And do you feel, Tito, that that kind of persistent rejection with women may have played a part in all this behavioral deficiency that developed inside him?

DEJESUS: At first I never thought anything of it until I started hearing all the news, stuff about him, and thinking about it now, I'm like it could be, maybe he resented these women who they didn't want to dance with him for whatever the reasons were. It worked in my mind, maybe he started hating women. I don't know. But it could be part of it.

I mean, I used to do, when I first started performing, you want to go dance? They say no to you, you're in front of a crowded room of people, and they're seeing you trying to take a woman to dance, and they say no. That's very humiliating, very embarrassing.

So I learned after a couple times, to stop doing that. Obviously, he didn't.

MORGAN: I mean, Tito, you knew Ariel Castro for 20 years. He was a bass player. You are a pianist. You've played together for a long, long time. You lived on Seymour Street when you were a child. You've been to that house to unload instruments and so on as early as two years ago.

You thought he lived alone. When you think back, though, were there any clues, any noises, strange things happening, stuff you heard? When you think about it now with hindsight, it makes more sense?

DEJESUS: When I went to his house two years ago, like I say, I sold him some appliances. I thought we were going to take it to the basement, down to the garage, and he told me, just leave the appliances in the driveway, and you can help me with the small stuff and put it in the living room. I didn't think much about it at the time.

And while in the house living room, I helped him with his stuff in the living room. I saw his instruments and everything. I really didn't look around the house because I wasn't looking for clues. But now that I think of it, why did he want me to leave the washer and dryer in the driveway, he will get it later?

So, as I'm thinking now, like possibly he didn't want me to go in the basement or in his garage for whatever the reasons were. I mean, all these things coming out right now is making me think a lot.

MORGAN: And, finally, quickly, Tito, if you don't mind. You've obviously spoken to lots of your friends and fellow band mates and so on in the last few days. Can anyone quite believe that Ariel Castro, this apparently nice, normal guy, has turned out to be allegedly this horrific monster?

DEJESUS: No, everybody's been shocked, shocked to the point where they really don't want to talk about it. They're surprised that I'm talking about it, and they would tell me you shouldn't talk about it. You'll be associated with this guy.

I'm like, I have no choice. It wasn't my fault that this person fooled everybody. How could we have had a clue that he was a monster inside? I mean, he had everybody fooled.

And right now say, hey, this man fooled me, and, yes, I've known him 20 years, performed with him for 20 years, and he just fooled me.

And, really, I'm hurt. I'm really hurt to learn all these horrible things about him, but I have to talk about it. I have to. I think that's part of the healing process.

MORGAN: Absolutely. Tito DeJesus, thank you very much indeed again for joining me.

DEJESUS: Thank you.

MORGAN: Also following another breaking story on the Boston bombing investigation. Wall Street journalists are reporting that U.S. officials believe Russia withheld vital information about Tamerlan Tsarnaev, the terrorist who died after the Boston attack, Russia alerted the FBI and CIA about Tamerlan's possible extremist ties and views, but U.S. officials say Russia never told him about crucial text messages between Tamerlan's mother and a relative in Russia which revealed that Tamerlan may have been trying to join terrorist groups in Russia but didn't mention any specific terrorism plot. U.S. officials say it's not clear whether content of those messages would have changed the 2011 investigation into Tamerlan. We must stress that U.S. officials are acknowledging they would have withheld info too because of the fear of giving up sources.

Stay with CNN for more on this story tonight.

Next, how a neighborhood is running around rescued women in Cleveland.

And later, the man who helped catch the BTK killer talks about Castro and if there are more victims.


MORGAN: The fallout from the shocking case spreading like wildfire, especially for the tight-knit community where this is unfolding.

Joining me now is Maria Santana. She's a correspondent for CNN En Espanol. It's a bit of a mouthful.

Sorry, Maria. How are you?

MARIA SANTANA, CNN EN ESPANOL CORRESPONDENT: Very good, Piers. Thank you for having me on the show tonight.

MORGAN: It's my great honor. You've been down there all week. It's been an extraordinary case. It's gripped America.

But in Cleveland, in particular, it must be the only thing anyone is talking about. How would you describe the reaction of people there?

Is there a sense of, yes, great joy these women have been found, but also a sense of collective guilt that the community and the police and everyone working together were unable to find any of them in ten years?

SANTANA: That's definitely true, Piers. You know, there is this feeling where some people are feeling a little bit of guilt, where they're saying, maybe I should have noticed the signs. Maybe I should have seen something. Maybe I should have said something.

But I just want to tell you what I have seen in the past four days that I have been here. This is a very tight-knit Hispanic community, largely Puerto Rican, where people know each other. Everybody knows each other. Everybody cares about each other.

You know, there's a special interconnectedness between families that spans generations. You know, people are in each other's business, you know? Sometimes even too much, as somebody who grew up in a community very similar to this one can attest to.

And just to put this in perspective, you can walk to the corner right now and say to anybody, where can I find papol (ph)? If you grew up in a Latino family, you know that everybody has a papol. Sometimes two or three. Oh, yes, papol, the one that owns the restaurant up here.

So, I think that Ariel Castro was so good at fooling everybody because of the double life he led, but because people are trusting because people genuinely care about each other here, Piers.

MORGAN: We've got some new video, from the archives. This is from 2004, and it's Gina DeJesus' parents talking about her disappearance. Watch this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She knows, if she sees anybody approach, she is to turn and run or scream.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To avoid any person that she does not know that is walking towards her or anything. I've also taught her, if her car stops and questions her to ask for directions, to say she doesn't know and continue walking or start running.


MORGAN: Obviously, very prescient, as it turned out. She had been lured into the car by Ariel Castro.

The families are coming to terms with having the women back. How is it going? It seems to be going better for Gina and Amanda than for Michelle, who seems to have suffered possibly the worst of the three.

SANTANA: That's right. I mean, we know very little about Michelle, where she is. We know that perhaps she hasn't even spoken to her mother just yet. I've been very closely attached to the Dejesus family during this.

You know, I can tell you the families, the friends, they have been very protective of these women and rightly so. They've gone through so much. They don't want to expose them to a lot right away.

But, you know, we have learned little tidbits from the families about Gina DeJesus' return home. She came in and was eating ice cream with her whole family. You know, she went and checked out her old room the family has changed a bit throughout the years. One of the first things she said, according to a very close friend of the family, to her mother was that she wanted to get a manicure, believe it or not.

And, you know, this is just her probably maybe wanting to feel normal again and also her family just wanting to establish a sense of normalcy for her after all of this, Piers.

MORGAN: Absolutely. Maria, thank you very much indeed.

Joining me now is Papo Ruiz, who is the leader of the band that Ariel Castro played in. He's also friends with Castro and the DeJesus family.

Welcome to you, Mr. Ruiz. You actually were the leader of one of two bands he played in, not the same one that Tito who I spoke to earlier.

Tell me your recollections of Ariel Castro and how you feel about the revelations about him this week.

IVAN "PAPO" RUIZ, ARIEL CASTRO PLAYED IN HIS BAND: Yes, good evening, first of all. Our relationship together, it was just musical. I know him over 20 years, and we always played together for almost, maybe 14 or 15 years.

He was a good guy. He was a good guy and a musical type and all that. But personally, it was a different guy, totally different.

MORGAN: You believe that he was a bit of a manipulator, is that right?

RUIZ: Yes, yes. One of the musicians that was always strange because he would tell everybody, all the musicians, the attire for that gig that night, and he would be the different one. He always had to put different clothing.

And then when you go up to him and tell him, you don't have your attire, your dress code for the night, he would take that like violently. You know, he would not like what I would say, and I said, you know, I'm sorry. I'm the director of the band, and you have to do what I tell you in the band.

But until it got to the time that I actually fired him last year, sometime in November.

MORGAN: Why was that?

RUIZ: Oh, now -- excuse me?

MORGAN: Why did you fire him?

RUIZ: Well, with stuff like that. He was like different. He was a different musician to everybody. He would act different, like you would tell something, and he would take it back as always on the defensive side. He was always -- he didn't like what you tell him when he was doing stuff wrong.

MORGAN: When did you last hear from him? When did you last hear from him?

RUIZ: I actually heard -- March 13, I got some texts from him, of this year, that he really wanted to come back with the band. I told him, you know, we'll keep you in mind, but I knew in my mind that I was never going to call him again, I mean, the way his actions and stuff like that.

But I would tell him, you know, on a text, that I will keep you in my mind, if anything, if I need you, because, you know, musically, he was awesome. He would do the job. And -- but other than that, personally, he was different to everybody else.

MORGAN: How do you feel --

RUIZ: Different is the word (ph) --

MORGAN: Right.

RUIZ: How do you feel about the revelations about him this week?

RUIZ: Totally shocked. I didn't think he would be a person that would do stuff like that, but I knew he was strange. I knew something about him that being a director of the band, I had to call every musician for rehearsal, for the gig, for the attire, for so-so, you know. And when I called him, he always gave me like excuses and, I feel shocked. I feel totally shocked he would do something like that.

His family is totally a wonderful family, and believing that just one person do stuff like this is -- but I always knew he had strange -- I don't know. He was strange. He was strange. MORGAN: Yes. Papo Ruiz, thank you very much indeed for joining me.

Coming up next, the monster next door. I'll talk to two of the suspect's neighbors coming up.

And later, the man who helped nab the real "Silence of the Lambs" killer to talk about the Castro case.


MORGAN: With each new hour, we're learning new details about Ariel Castro. And a lot of the details are coming from his neighbors. Two of them join me now, Juan Perez and Storm Pusztay. Welcome to you both, gentlemen.

Let me start with you, Juan Perez, if I may. We talked briefly earlier in the week. You lived two doors away from Ariel Castro. You even helped him refurbish his front porch a few summers ago. Looking back on the time you spent with him, particularly at the house, was there anything that happened in all that time that when you look at it now, you think, OK, now I get what may have been going on?

JUAN PEREZ, NEIGHBOR OF ARIEL CASTRO: Honestly, Mr. Morgan, I didn't. I looked at it as just one of his properties. I saw the windows, you know, closed up, taped up, but just like that house, the two houses next door to him. I just thought no one was living there. You know, I never saw anything -- any kind of activity that made me really think that something was going on out of the ordinary. I cannot lie.

MORGAN: And in terms of the people I've been speaking to the last few days, most of them saying, look, he's a perfectly normal, friendly guy, good father, good grandfather, good friend, and so on. But tonight speaking to one of his former band leaders, just a sign, actually, from two people that played music with him -- but one was a band leader saying he had another side to him. He could be difficult. He could be individualistic to the expense of others. Violent was a phrase he used.

I think he meant more about his verbal violence when he didn't like something. But certainly a picture of a man perhaps with two characters. Did you see any of that?

PEREZ: No, I only saw the very social, happy go lucky guy on the block. I never saw any kind of negative that I could speak of. He was just a very nice guy, very helpful. Helped me fix my tire, like I said before. He was just the good guy in the neighborhood that everyone knew.

MORGAN: I mean, that's what everyone thought. Of course, he's turned out to be the absolute --

PEREZ: a monster.

MORGAN: -- worst possible guy any neighborhood could possibly have. What is the reaction of people around you, other neighbors? You must be talking to each other. Other than shock, what are you all thinking?

PEREZ: He was -- we don't know. I feel -- we feel lied to. And we're ashamed because we couldn't help earlier.

MORGAN: Do you feel guilty, Juan, that you were so close to these girls and you weren't able to help them, even though you knew nothing about what was happening?



MORGAN: It's obviously not your fault, Juan, and everyone knows that. But I can see the feeling in you, and it must be one that many people in that area share, which is this appalling atrocity was happening right under your noses. And there's this man that you all think is this incredibly nice guy, and actually it turns out he's a monster.

PEREZ: Yeah, just to think that all the times that we shared laughing outside and joking around and having people over, and to know that just two doors down was women there that, you know, were being taken from their families and were living in a house of horrors, as I've heard -- just to think that, what could have happened to one of my nephews or niece, what could have happened maybe to my mother when I wasn't home or -- I just -- I just can't really put it all together still.

I'm very happy -- let me get that out. I'm very happy and excited for the girls and for the blessing of that six-year-old girl, that beautiful six-year-old girl. But as a member of the neighborhood, as a neighbor, that's just how I feel.

MORGAN: I completely understand how you feel, and your emotions are absolutely understandable. It must be an awful feeling to know that this devil was lurking right in the middle of you all. And my heart goes out to all of you. It must be a shocking discovery.

Storm, let me come to you. Between 2011 and 2012, you say you saw Ariel Castro regularly in his backyard and garage, sometimes with a young girl, a young girl that we believe was almost certainly the girl that he fathered with Amanda Berry. Tell me about that.

STORM PUSZTAY, NEIGHBOR OF ARIEL CASTRO: Like I said, when I was back there, he just the creep factor of it all, if I was in my backyard, he could be right on top of you, staring at you. And you look and you see him, and you go about your business, and he's still looking at you.

But as for the little girl, yes, I saw her on a few occasions before he would put up that barricade. I'm sorry. I just really -- it's really upsetting, man, because he was so close.

MORGAN: No, I completely understand. For all the neighbors, all of you, it must be an appalling thing to discover. And also, as Juan just said, the thought that this could have been your daughters, your mothers, your aunts. Any woman in that locality was at serious risk here.

PUSZTAY: Like I said, I had three daughters. So I had -- you know, they were living at the address at the time with me. But it's like he was very more worried with me because I was more stand-offish to him. He was complaining about my grill when I cooked back there by his garage. And I was nowhere near his garage.

MORGAN: He would, I gather, play loud music with the speakers positioned so the music would project outwards towards all the neighbors' homes, including yours.


MORGAN: Do you think now he was using -- not yours, but some of the others, right?

PUSZTAY: Right. Like I said, he had the speakers pointed out towards the front, but the back, you could still hear.

MORGAN: But do you think his intention, Storm, in doing this was to hide out any possible noises from his -- the women that he captured?

PUSZTAY: He had dogs in that yard. And he also had tarps put up. And the way his yard is cut, he has like these trees going in between the fence that he never cut, but they blocked out the other --

MORGAN: Right, everything designed to hide the truth. Storm Pusztay and Juan Perez, I know what a shock this is to all the neighborhood. I do appreciate you coming on and being so honest with me. Juan, I just want to reiterate to you, given how emotional you've been tonight, that no one is ever going to blame you for this. It's something that no one can be to blame for apart from Ariel Castro.

And I understand how you feel, and my heart goes out to all of you. Thank you for joining me.

PEREZ: Thank you. God bless.

MORGAN: Coming next, inside the mind of Ariel Castro. I will talk to the former chief of the FBI's behavioral science unit, the man who was the model for Jack Crawford in "The Silence of The Lambs."



LILLIAN RODRIGUEZ, ARIEL CASTRO'S MOTHER (through translator): I have a sick son who's done something serious. I am suffering very much. I ask for forgiveness from those mothers. May those girls forgive me. I suffer the pain they suffered. I am suffering for my son's pain. My son is sick, and I have nothing to do with what my son did. (END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: Through an interpreter, the anguish of Ariel Castro's mother, talking about her son who stands accused of unspeakable crimes. My guest is a no stranger to cases like this. John Douglas is the former chief of the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit. The Jack Crawford character in "Silence of The Lambs" was based on him. Welcome to you, Mr. Douglas. It's is a truly, truly horrendous case this, isn't it?

You've met and interviewed and investigated some of the worst monsters in modern American history. Where does this man, Ariel Castro, assuming he gets convicted of all the crimes we believe he's done -- where does he rank in your eyes?

JOHN DOUGLAS, FORMER CHIEF, FBI'S BEHAVIORAL SCIENCE UNIT: He's up there. I've seen others that have been even more sadistic. I think he's being portrayed a little differently. We're throwing around the term sexual predator. It may -- your viewers and listeners may think that there's a sexual component, and that's the primary motivation of the offender. And it really isn't.

Sex is a component but really a small component. It's all about power. It's all about control. It's all about basically playing God, being in a position where you can control the destiny of your victims. The things that surprise me about this particular offender -- first it was three. That's unusual. I've had mostly two. Two, and more times than not, it's just been one offender.

Then when they eliminated the brothers, that was more like it, because now it fits some other cases that I did. But I've had some bad cases. You mentioned the "The Silence of the Lambs," where I helped the prosecution convict Gary Heidnick, who kept his victims down in a cellar. Only difference between in the movie and in real life, it was even worse. He would put them in a hole he built into his basement, filled it up with water, this pit. And then he would get electric wire and then torture and killed two of his victims.

He had as many as six victims down there at the time. But it's really about power and control. It's a sadistic type of crime. Generally, you don't start perpetrating crimes like this -- OK, he's 51, 52 now. He would have committed the crimes when he was about 42. Generally, there's a history of other violent crime in their background. I know he's been -- he had trouble with domestic violence about 2005 or so. These cases began around 2004.

You're looking for a precipitating stressor or event that finally pushes the guy out the door. He finally goes out the door and he starts looking for potential victims. But he's got the preplanning. You know they're going to use insanity as one of the potential defenses, but he's got the preplanning involved in this. He's not going to just abduct someone off the street without having everything all set to go back home.

So he has the shackles. He has the means of boarding up the house, so no one can hear the yells and screams, just like Gary Heidnick. He would turn the radio on loud. He boarded up the windows. He put cinder blocks in the basement so they couldn't hear the screams and yells. And he too tested them, like Ariel. So if any of them tried to escape, he would then punish them.

But to do the interview, that's the thing. They wear this mask of sanity. You sit across from them, and you look into their eyes. When you look in their eyes, they look normal. Then you try to kind of go back, what that person looked like when he was looking into the eyes of the victim and how his personality was totally different.

So they can -- and what's amazing is that they can live these two different lives. They can compartmentalize. They can be the husband and father of children in some cases, like the BTK Strangler, who I interviewed in Wichita, Kansas, and worked the case. Meanwhile, he has a job in the community. He wears a badge. Another job he had was with ADT Security. So he had access to the alarm systems that he would later go back and cut the alarms.

But they can wear this. That's what I think fools the public. They think it's going to be some type of ghoulish looking type of character that will stand out in the crowd. No, they look like you and I.

MORGAN: John, this is fascinating stuff. Let's take a break and come back and talk more about this. I really want to ask you as well whether you believe that we have seen the end of Ariel Castro's crimes, or whether you think he has committed others before this, which is what some people suspect.


MORGAN: Back now with John Douglas, the former chief of the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit. John, the big question, I guess, is could there be other serious crimes that Ariel Castro has committed, given that this period only starts, really, in his 40s?

DOUGLAS: When you get an offender at this age, in his 40s like this, usually, it begins -- OK, let's give you a this is your life kind of thing with violent offenders. It usually is spotted early childhood. Teachers generally recognize some of the signs, fire setting. And the big one really is animal cruelty.

They get involved with relationships with other women and then what you usually see is there's domestic violence associated with that. Often times when they have -- and I know he was brutal to his wife. You know, unfortunately, she's no longer with us. She passed away. Sometimes what they do -- it's all excuse abuse. They never accept responsibility. They're always projecting the blame onto someone else.

So if they're having trouble at home with the wife, they'll go out. They may not be perpetrating a murder, but they'll go out and commit another violent crime. It could be a child molestation crime. It could be a rape case. Generally the nature of the beast is to perpetrate crimes in a comfort zone. The comfort zone is an area just like what he has there. The crime were perpetrated within a few blocks of where he resided.

Usually, it's either where they reside or where they work, in this particular area. So this guy, wherever he's lived before, I would just start -- generally they surface somewhere in the late 20s. I would start in the mid and late 20s and go back and kind of do a this is your life, look at the types of crimes that he perpetrated.

He's not copping out now. Who knows? It could even be a homicide here. It's very fortunate that these three women now are out of his control. Because what happens, eventually, they get tired of some of the victims. Sometimes there's a preferential victim, a certain look, a certain age that they're after. And then once this victim changes in appearance -- she may get older -- They don't want her -- don't want them anymore. So they get rid of this victim. They go out looking for another.

MORGAN: Do you think, John, that if Amanda Berry hasn't shown the courage she did to escape at the start of this week, that her own daughter that she had with this man could have come into his target- range, in terms of being a sexual tool for him?

DOUGLAS: Very definitely. That's exactly right, Piers. And you know, he had favorites. Usually, they have favorites. He had three women, a child. He could have discarded one of these women at some point. Could have even been the mother. Could have replaced the mother with that child. I've seen this in other types of, you know, cases as well.

MORGAN: It's a really disturbing case. John Douglas, a fascinating insight there from someone who has obviously investigated many cases of this kind of depravity. You must come back soon, please. Really enjoyed that conversation for the insight you gave us to this kind of crime. Really hideous.

Thank you very much, John Douglas.

DOUGLAS: Thanks, Piers.

MORGAN: And we'll be right back.



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