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First Degree Murder: Aggravation Phase

Aired May 13, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the Jodi Arias saga continues. More of what Jodi said after the verdict.

Plus, new video you will not see anywhere else.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Travis was also an awesome writer. He loved to write. He had a passion for it.

PINSKY: Was Travis writing a book? And what details were in it? His friends are here to explain.

And the latest on the Ohio kidnappings. The brothers of the suspect speak for the first time. What did they know about the victims?

Let`s get started.


PINSKY: Good evening.

My co-host this week, Sirius XM radio host and attorney Jenny Hutt.

Jenny, we`ve got a lot of information tonight. Jodi is back up, everybody. Good news. But no new tweets yet. We`ll keep checking and keep you posted throughout the night.

Sorry to disappoint you, you better go quickly follow her to make sure you can keep track of her.

JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: I tried. She blocked me, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Well, you know, it`s funny -- myself and all of our staff tried to follow her as well. And we couldn`t. So it`s a funny -- I don`t know if it`s all of us or the whole thing is set up that you can`t follow - - I don`t know.

HUTT: I don`t know.

PINSKY: We`ll find out.

Also coming up, we have never before seen video taken after Travis` death. Very interesting.

Plus, a renowned psychiatrist, a friend of our show, says Jodi not mentally ill. He and I are going to get into that.

But first something that comes up repeatedly on this show, Jodi`s eyes. What is up with Jodi`s eyes? Watch this.


PINSKY: Some of your friends actually had concerns about just the look in her eye and they didn`t want their kids around her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had an opportunity to connect eyes with Jodi. And if looks could kill, she was dead on the spot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And there`s Jodi Arias with the most frightening, evil -- I mean, I`ve never seen anything like it before or since.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She had that look in her eye, like yes, what else are you going to say?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you look in her eyes, it`s empty. It`s just like there`s no soul behind there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Look at her eyes. She`s deviant.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I feel like everybody keeps saying the same thing. There was this look in her eye. That`s weird, empty eyes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She stares. The other family members, and smiles at them.


PINSKY: So, Jenny, there you go. I mean, we`ve heard that over and over again and people -- go ahead.

HUTT: She has crazy eyes. That`s what the layman`s term is, Dr. Drew. She has empty, soulless, crazy eyes.

PINSKY: Well, Jenny, I`ll leave it at that for right now.

We have got HLN legal correspondent Beth Karas standing by. She`s covering all the latest development.

Beth, where is Jodi right now?

BETH KARAS, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, she is back at Estrella jail, Dr. Drew. She left the psych ward about 1:00 local time today, 4:00 Eastern Time. In fact, her mother, Sandy Arias, had gone to the psych ward to visit her and was turned away, saying Jodi`s moving back to Estrella.

So I don`t have confirmation that she went over there to visit her. She needs to be process and brought up and she was en route apparently when she went to visit her.

So, she`s there and it was something we thought might happen, once she got evaluated and found she was no longer a danger to herself if she ever was.

So, now, we`re just waiting for Wednesday, 1:00 Eastern, 10:00 local, the aggravation phase should begin.

PINSKY: Very good. Thank you, Beth.

Tonight on our panel, Loni Coombs, attorney and author of "You`re Perfect and Other Lies Parents Tell", Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at, becoming a meteorologist and cloud and fog specialist, and psychologist Robi Ludwig, author of "Till Death Do Us Part".

All right. Now, there`s even more from that post-verdict interview we`ve all been arguing about that she gave immediately after the verdict to station KASZ.

I`ll remind you all, Mark, she spent four days in a psychiatric hospital. It takes 72 hours on a hold. You can`t even hold somebody past that for an evaluation. So it was beyond just evaluative.

Now --

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: What`s your point?

PINSKY: We`ll just leave that out in the vapors for a second. Let`s listen to what she says about her upcoming defense about the death penalty.


JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED MURDERER: I`ve been told that I doesn`t have any mitigating factors.


ARIAS: My attorney.

REPORTER: Kirk Nurmi said to you there are no mitigating factors for you in terms of arguing against the death penalty?

ARIAS: Nothing that is what you typically see in a case like this, such as a childhood where there was drugs, alcoholism, molestation, things like that. None of those things occurred in my family. I guess we would sort of joke that my mom didn`t beat me hard enough.


PINSKY: Mark, ha, ha, ha, she`s a comedian. That`s disgusting, no?

EIGLARSH: Well, disgusting? Listen, everything about her just makes me sick. You know, playing the victim. It`s all about the victim.

I believe this post-conviction interview is all about the realization of this borderline who had controlled so many things and so many people in their life finally could not control the outcome of the rest of her life, death or life. Two horrible options existed.

And the only thing I can relate to is when you go into a restaurant and they say your dessert is free and I get all excited, and they say it`s either jell-o or rice pudding. That sucks.

HUTT: I like rice pudding.

PINSKY: Jenny, usually, I get flan or jell-o.

But, Loni, you want to ring in on this?

LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: I think the main thing that we should all get from this interview is if anybody has any doubt that Jodi does not premeditate every single thing in her life, look, this interview didn`t just happen. She planned this interview weeks in advance. She had it lined up with this reporter. She had it lined up with the jail.

You can`t just walk in and sit down and say I want to have an interview. She had all of this set up ready to go as soon as that verdict happened. She is always planning for everything that happens in her life.

PINSKY: And her mom didn`t beat her enough. Hmm, interesting.

Here`s another clip before we go. Another clip of that same interview. Take a look.


REPORTER: Does Kirk like you?

ARIAS: I think nine days out of ten. I mean --

REPORTER: Nine days out of ten.

ARIAS: One day out of nine, one day out of 10.

REPORTER: Why didn`t you get along?

ARIAS: Actually, we got along for a long time and we just have had clashes. Ultimately, he`s the boss.

REPORTER: Are you happy with your defense?

ARIAS: I`m grateful for my defense.

REPORTER: That`s not happy though.

ARIAS: Not 100 percent.


PINSKY: Mark, she must have been a handful for Nurmi.

EIGLARSH: Oh, I feel for him. I`ve had clients. I`ve had clients like this. I -- here`s what I know for sure, OK? I haven`t spoken to him.

But I know, number one, he knows that she`s guilty as heck and yet was forced to stay on this case having to deal with her. She was a difficult client, and Ms. Know-it-all, those are the worst kind, completely not appreciative. And now, nothing but a -- well, I wasn`t satisfied. I know the type. Too bad.

PINSKY: Robi, I`m going to go back to you. Let`s dial it back to what I was saying at the beginning of this segment about her having spent four days in a psychiatric hospital. People don`t just stay four days in a psych hospital unless there`s something really going on or that facility needs to be shut down.

I`m just saying. I want Robi`s opinion on that.

ROBI LUDWIG, AUTHOR: I can certainly see -- listen, it`s very hard to keep anybody on a psychiatric hospital. If anything, they`re trying to get you out really quickly.

Having said that, Jodi has a history of suicidality. She is a person who has crossed over the line. I`m sure the hospital wanted to make very, very sure that Jodi was not a danger to herself.

And she was acting out. This is a woman who is dangerous.

So I think they made the right decision here. Is she manipulative? Yes.


LUDWIG: But that doesn`t mean that you`re a danger to yourself.

PINSKY: That`s right. Mark, maybe this is a way to look at this. This is somebody we know who is homicidal who is now suicidal. It doesn`t get more dangerous than that it from a mental health standpoint. Do you get that?

EIGLARSH: I agree. I agree that that`s one part of it, yes.

And I also believe that she said those things that needed to be said, not out of a mental illness, but out of somebody who`s calculated, cold and manipulative to get to where she needed to be. And he got into there and they kept her there because of the things that she said.

PINSKY: OK. But, Mark, keeping her here, Jenny, I`m going to let you ring in here, we know she has this psychopathic part that`s goal-directed, that`s lying, that`s calculating. None of us disagree with that. I don`t like to second guess my professional colleagues. They know that too.

Jenny, go.

HUTT: Didn`t Dr. Cheryl Arutt say this the other day to you two boys, didn`t you listen? It`s the duality. It`s the two things, the sociopath person --

PINSKY: No, no, no.

HUTT: She`s catering to both.

PINSKY: No. She said the splitting. Splitting is what borderlines do. You`re either all good or all bad. It`s like mommy or daddy. It`s like this one or that one.

HUTT: She`s pushing both of your buttons.

PINSKY: Absolutely.


PINSKY: Mark, hang on a second. Let`s talk about this because I love Mark Eiglarsh and he and I are fighting. Imagine what she does at the jail to Kirk Nurmi and her defense team.

COOMBS: I have to stand up for mark here.

EIGLARSH: And I love you, too, Drew, but there`s no DNA test that they take at the jail. And if there`s a checklist that they say certain things you`re going in. That`s it. It`s that simple.

PINSKY: Loni, go. Finish this up.

COOMBS: The reality is -

EIGLARSH: Loni`s got my back. Go, Loni.

COOMBS: Exactly. We know what goes on in the trenches. This was a precautionary move by the warden.

PINSKY: Four days.

COOMBS: Trying to get the psychiatrist in there. It takes time to get them in there to do the evaluation. This is over the weekend. Everybody gets back on Monday. Everything`s clear, OK, you`re going back to the regular jail. That`s the way things happen.

PINSKY: Maybe. Mark?

EIGLARSH: She kept saying those things. She kept saying those things that got her in there to begin with.


EIGLARSH: Are you done? Are you done? Yes.

PINSKY: The crazy thing is none of us disagree with one another. It`s just her craziness that has us all spinning.

And, Jenny, that`s what you`re talking about, and I completely agree with you.

EIGLARSH: Next up, thank you, panel. A well-known psychiatrist, he`s going to come in here to say there`s nothing wrong with Jodi. And he will make that case in the behavior bureau.

And later, we have new video of Travis` memorial that you will not see anywhere else. It`s very touching footage with his family. And again, we continue to think with them and our positive thoughts stay with them. That will be up after the break.



ARIAS: Had I told them the reason no jury would convict me at that time, I would have been thrown into a padded cell and stripped-down, and that would have been my life for a while until I stabilized.

I believe death is the ultimate freedom, so I`d rather just have my freedom as soon as I can get it.

I had nothing to do with his death at all. At all.

The reason I hesitate is because, maybe this is something that`s wrong with me psychologically.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I diagnosed her on axis two as borderline personality disorder.

HUTT: She is two scoops of crazy with crazy on top.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s two scoops of crazy on steroids.

PINSKY: What if she`s punching herself in the face and hitting her head on the wall, which is what I suspect is happening in there.


PINSKY: And it`s time for the behavior bureau. My co-host is Jenny Hutt.

Jenny, I want to make sure I got this concept of splitting across to you real quick, because you thought splitting was her psychopathic self and her borderline self. Splitting is something borderlines do and we would see it in the hospital all the time.

For instance, if I would come to the hospital and interact with a borderline, the first thing a borderline would say is you`re the most wonderful, best doctor in the world. Dr. Smith, he`s awful, he`s terrible, he`s a bad person.

Now, when she`d talk to Dr. Smith, she`d say that Dr. Drew, he`s an awful guy. He`s terrible. Dr. Smith, you`re the greatest.

That`s splitting. You`re either all good or all bad.

HUTT: That`s two hands against the middle. OK.

PINSKY: Yes. Splitting. Splitting.

All right. Let`s introduce our panel . Joining us, Danine Manette, criminal investigator and author of "Ultimate Betrayal", Samantha Schacher, social commentator and host of "Hot Trigger" on the Young Turks Network, and psychologist Robi Ludwig stays with me.

But, first, I want to get into this -- a recent article in psychology today caught our eye here. And in the article it states, quote, by the author, "As much as we want to put Jodi in a nice psychiatric diagnostic box with a bow on top, it doesn`t work. Arias was a spoiled, selfish brat unable to handle Travis Alexander`s rejection."

That author, Dr. Dale Archer, joins us now.

So, Dale, interesting. I can`t wait to hear your point of view.

I want you to lay it out for us why you don`t think she has psychiatric problem. But more importantly, this has been my thing with Mark Eiglarsh. I don`t like it when attorneys take aim at our colleagues. And the attorneys were saying, the psychiatric unit doesn`t know what they`re doing. They`re falling victims in this manipulative perpetrator.

And they kept her for four days. You know, it`s hard to keep a patient in a psychiatric unit for four days unless there`s a serious psychiatric problem. If there isn`t, that unit, it seems to me, needs to look at from the state licensing board. What are your thoughts?

DR. DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: Well, now I disagree. In the real world, if a patient comes to me and says, I`m going to harm myself, and they don`t want to go in the hospital I can slap a commitment on them and put them in for three days off the bat. If a colleague agrees me, they`re in for two weeks.

So, we want to take our time to make sure they`re not really going to harm themselves. In prison, it`s even easier. When I was a prison psychiatrist, we would face this very, very often. Really you have more time to be sure.

The last thing you want to do is take a chance. You throw them on a psych ward, you take your time, you do the evaluation.

So this doesn`t surprise me at all. And, Drew, I got to tell you that we`re talking about two different things here when we talk about her being thrown onto the psych ward. That was for an adjustment disorder after the stress, the acute stress of being slapped with a murder one conviction.

PINSKY: Fair enough.

ARCHER: That says nothing about her behavior before, nothing whatsoever.

HUTT: OK. Wait.

PINSKY: Jenny, go ahead, Jenny.

HUTT: What are you guys talking about?

PINSKY: Here`s the deal. He`s -- Dr. Archer is saying that maybe the stress of being potentially facing your death was enough to make you suicidal and depressed, at least warrant an evaluation. But that is separate from her chronic behavioral functions, all the stuff we`ve been talking about.

Now, Dr. Archer, how do we explain what the psychologist found on the site testing? Was that just a hired gun interpreting data the way she wanted to?

ARCHER: Well, the problem I have with psychiatric testing, and the problem I have with this whole evaluation, is it`s basically looking at Jodi as a snapshot after she met Travis Alexander.

And if it`s a diagnosis such as a borderline, antisocial and narcissistic personality disorder, this is a lifetime condition. We start seeing this when they`re kids and then it manifests fully when they`re teenagers. Not all of a sudden they meet somebody and boom, you slap a diagnosis on them.

We do not have the evidence in Jodi at all that she met this criteria throughout her life. Yes, she was mean to her mom. And yes, she lied a little bit, and yes, she had some tumultuous relationships. This does not give a psychiatric diagnosis. It`s not --

PINSKY: All right. Jenny, go ahead.

HUTT: Couldn`t it happen later in life?

PINSKY: Not personality disorder, no. He`s right about that. Personality disorders are lifelong patterns of behavior and emotional processing.

Let`s bring in the panel a little bit.

Robi, what do you say to what Dr. Archer is saying?

LUDWIG: Well, I mean, I have to say I disagree. I mean, maybe Jodi wasn`t diagnosed pre-this situation, but here`s a girl who was very, very intelligent who did not graduate high school. That indicates that there was a problem there, emotionally, because I don`t think the problem was intellectual.

She had a history of having difficulty with her family. Some families would say you`re a problem. You need to run, don`t walk, to the nearest shrink and get evaluated, but maybe her family didn`t operate that way.

So, I think to simply say that we didn`t know about a diagnosis until this, this situation --

PINSKY: Dr. Archer wants to respond. Go ahead.

LUDWIG: -- could be naive.

ARCHER: You`re not going to sit there and tell me pause she didn`t graduate from high school and she had a tumultuous teenage years that she meets the criteria for psychiatric diagnosis, that`s not even in the same universe. Come on.

PINSKY: Got it. Danine, go. What do you got?

DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: I agree with him. I think that this is just more drama for her. I think she is so convenient. I think that she`s so calculated. I have always felt that way.

Just like when people get in trouble, celebrities, all of a sudden they come up with some kind of condition they have, so they can get rehab and continue with their advertisements and their jobs or whatever.

But I think she`s just full of it. I think that she just knows what to do and what triggers and what buttons to push in order to give herself this allure of psychosis or whatever. I think she`s gaming everybody --


PINSKY: Samantha, go ahead. But, Samantha, Danine is pushing my button. The whole reason I did "Celebrity Rehab" is I was treating celebrities who were sick and people like Danine were saying, oh, they were just out of vacation, they`re doing it for publicity.

MANETTE: It`s just convenient.

PINSKY: That these people were sick and dying. We decided we needed to show how sick they are. Believe me, we don`t admit people to a drug dependency unit unless they meet criteria.

What do you say, Samantha?

SCHACHER: Of course, I agree with you. I think that Jodi Arias is a rarity.

I think Jodi is evil, 100 percent evil. We`ve seen zero remorse from Jodi Arias since 2008. And I was astonished to see her reaction when she was convicted with murder one. I didn`t see her go run and cry with her family. I didn`t see her go consult with her counsel.

No. She did an interview and used that opportunity to continue to trash Travis Alexander who`s six feet under from her hands. And I can`t even stomach to look at her anymore.

In fact, I wish I would have the opportunity to wipe that smug look right off her face.

PINSKY: I think most the panel agrees with that. But, Dale, I`m going to finish up with you. Hold on, Dale.

If we were to speculate there is a personality disorder here, there`s all that data that DeMarte put together that added up to borderline, do you have a suspicion that there`s something there, if you were pushed, faced to the mirror, if there was something there, would you think borderline or would you go down the sociopathic spectrum.

ARCHER: No, she doesn`t meet the criteria for sociopathic because those are the people that fill up the jails and go in and out of jail over and over and over. She`s not even close to that. I don`t think she`s borderline either.

If you were going to push me and say you`ve got to give her something, then I would be looking at narcissism. But I don`t think she meets the criteria for full pledge narcissism. Not with that disorder but she`s narcissistic.

PINSKY: How about narcissistic or borderline traits, right? We`re saying that, right?

ARCHER: She definitely has narcissistic traits without a doubt. And, you know, if you look at her history, just as she met Travis, she would meet the criteria for borderline. It`s just the lifetime history is not there.

PINSKY: Oh, man, now, I need another segment to mine that because that`s really interesting. But we don`t have it.

Thank you very much. Thank you, Dale.

Our behavior bureau will be back later to talk about the Ohio kidnapping, and, Danine, you can clarify what you said. It`s all good.

Next up, exclusive video you will not see anywhere else, inside Travis Alexander`s memorial service. Jodi, lurking about. We`ll get into that.

And later, was Travis actually working on a book before he died? And what was he writing about?

Back in a moment.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt.

Jenny, there we are.

Still with us, Mark Eiglarsh and Loni Coombs, and a reminder that days after Travis was murdered, a thousand people or so, including Jodi Arias, crowded into a Mormon church in Mesa, Arizona.

Hold on. Tonight, we have an exclusive look inside that service that you just will not see anywhere else. We`ve got some great footage. You`ll get to listen, coming up here, to how Travis Alexander` sister Hillary memorialized him. Take a look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have big shoes to fill. My brother Travis was a great speaker, and I`m not. He also liked to travel. Right now, he was reading a book called "A Thousand Places to See Before you Die". And he was working on those thousand. And I know he had a set goal this year to see 50 of those places.

Travis was also an awesome writer. He loved to write. He had a passion for it. And he was really good. Like we found tons of things in his house just like, you know, just a sketch, but it was really, really good.

Most of all, he loved making people laugh. He just loved to be with his family and his friends and just bring joy to everybody`s life. He truly loved life.

Travis was the type of person that he wanted to be close to everyone. And he would find the similarities and anybody could, that I came in contact with to, you know, feel really close to them. That`s how he was.

In our family, alone, all of us felt close to him. And personally, for me, I`m, I would say I was only close to a few of my siblings. And he truly was close to all of us. What I miss most about my brother is his smile. I loved his big smile and it`s so cheesy. I just loved it.


PINSKY: Oh, Jenny, I saw you rye act to this. It`s so heartbreaking, this poor family.

HUTT: It`s her brother. And the fact that Jodi was at that memorial. I just can`t. Dr. Drew, how are there people that walk the earth like that? Like who behaves like that?

She killed him -- I don`t get it.

PINSKY: And I`m trying to understand what she would hear, how she could not -- I don`t know.

OK. Let`s talk to our guests because they were at the memorial. Joining us, Tyler Farnsworth and Elisha Schabel, both were very good friends with Travis. And Elisha is on the phone.

You`re both at the service. I`m going to start with Elisha.

Am I pronouncing your name right? Is it Elisha or Alisha?

ELISHA SCHABEL, FRIEND OF TRAVIS (via telephone): It`s Alisha.

PINSKY: It`s Elisha. Thank you, Elisha, for joining us.

And you met Jodi for the first time at the service. What did you observe?

SCHABEL: Oh, my goodness, Dr. Drew. She came right up to me. And as you said, thousands of people were there. She came right up to me and lined right up to me in fact when I walked in. As you can imagine, I`m very somber.

This is, you know, one of my best friends. I`m there to mourn his loss. And she`s wanting to talk about working with me in the future with photography and I just couldn`t believe it.

PINSKY: Wow. And I also heard -- I guess, Tyler, I`ll go to you. Witnesses said that she was smiling. And she had a peculiar grin on her face. What did you notice, Tyler?

TYLER FARNSWORTH, FRIEND OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: She was. It was odd. She came in, you know, and like what she had just said, was shaking people`s hands, congratulating -- or not congratulating them, but sympathizing with them like a widow, like I guess a black widow.

You know, she`d come in and had that odd grin on her face. She would stare at the speakers as they were telling all these loving stories of his life.

PINSKY: Hold on. Tyler, while, that moving testimonial that we just heard from Hillary, she was smiling during that?

FARNSWORTH: She would just sit-up there and stare at them with those creepy eyes that now. We would sit there and stare at them, had a little grin on her face. It was so odd for us to see her there.

PINSKY: Did anybody start to think because of her behavior, make her -- did she seem even more suspicious because of that? Or did you think that?

FARNSWORTH: Yes. I mean, we thought it was odd that she even showed up. You know, we, a lot of us had suspicions of her from the very beginning. And so, to have her show up there was kind of a slap in the face to all of us. And we really didn`t understand why she would even come down to this. And now knowing what we know now is even that more infuriating.

PINSKY: Elisha, did you have a similar reaction?

ELISHA SCHABEL, FRIEND OF TRAVIS: Well, yes, actually. Something told me right before she actually approached me that she had done it. And, you know, I will never, ever forget that feeling. It`s the most darkest feeling you`ll ever feel. And so with that said, having that feeling, I continued to watch her like a hot (ph) kind of, you know, the rest of the night. And she had a lot of odd behaviors.

You know, she made a book of all the pictures and had all of his friends and families sign it. I have yet to know where that book surfaced, if the family does, in fact, have it. But, she specifically read over my shoulder, "oh, I love what you wrote there" and mentioned something about the fact of this isn`t goodbye Travis, it`s see you later, I love you.

And she`s like, "oh, I love what you wrote there. That`s so sweet." And just her, you know, her creepy grin. And I looked back at her, and I just couldn`t believe it. Are you for real right now? Like, this is my moment to mourn his loss. And she`s wanting to just, you know, constantly get in to everyone`s conversation. And privately, there was about a handful of us left at that table.

You know, we`re all sobbing. People are talking about who could do this to Travis, you know? And she`s like, and she`s going along with it like yes, who could do this?

PINSKY: She`s in that conversation?


PINSKY: She`s in that conversation as what kind of monster could have done something so vicious and slaughtered him like this.


PINSKY: Fantastic.

SCHABEL: Going along with it, completely trying to create tears of sorrow and just trying to -- you know, I just can`t believe it, looking back. I don`t know --

PINSKY: It`s nauseating.

SCHABEL: You know?

PINSKY: Nauseating. Let me give you a little more look inside the memorial for Travis Alexander. Here is Deanna Reid, our friend, who has been on this program before. She was a former girlfriend and then ended up being a very, very close friend of Travis. Take a look.


DEANNA REID, TRAVIS ALEXANDER`S "FIRST TRUE LOVE": Since I first met Travis, I always saw something special in him. At a time even when not very many people might have, when they might have just seen him as a young punk kid living in a house with a bunch of other guys in Riverside, California, driving around in his beat up Honda Civic, telling everyone that he was going to be rich, he was going to change the world.

Recently, I was on the phone with him. He had given me a call when he started writing his book. And he wanted to read to me some of what he had written. And, and when he -- when he was done reading what he had written for his book, he anxiously asked me, so what do you think? And I told him how well written it was, how amazing it was.

And I thought, I can`t -- like I`ve heard this story that he was telling me that he put in his book a couple of times already, but I had never heard it so eloquently put. And then, we just started reminiscing about old times and laughing, and then, there was a pause in the conversation. And I said, I love you, Travy. And I`m so proud of you. And he said, I love you, too. More than you know. Travis changed my life. He made me a better person.


PINSKY: These are all people we`ve come to know through this trial. And it hurts a lot to hear them in such pain. You just imagine.

All right. The panel and guests stay with me. We`ll have more of the memorial service video. You will only see it here.

And later on, we`re going to get into the Ohio kidnappings. The brothers of the suspect speak for the first time. What did they know about the victims? What did they know about what their brother was up to? We`ll get back and into that after this.


PINSKY: I`m back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, and my guests, Elisha Schabel and Tyler Farnsworth, both good friends of Travis Alexander. Our panel is still standing by, Mark Eiglarsh and Loni Coombs. We`re looking at more exclusive video inside the memorial service for Travis Alexander. Here is one more clip of Travis` sister. Take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He worked very hard at his job and he was very successful. He had a little black dog also named Napoleon, a pug. We also a.k.a. Nap for Napster. Travis enjoyed biking. He had this really decked out outfit that he`d wear. Really, really funny. I don`t know about cute. Really funny.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But he loved it, and I loved to strut his stuff in it. Travis also got me into genealogy. And every time we would talk about genealogy, we would sing this song, (SINGING) genealogy, I am doing it. And we just loved it, you know?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He also loved to travel. Right now, he was reading a book called "A Thousand Places To See Before You Die." And he was working on those thousand. And I know he had a set goal this year, I believe, to see 50 of those places.


PINSKY: Elisha, what is that like to hear that all now after the verdict?

SCHABEL: It`s gut-wrenching. And I`m glad I`m not on camera right now, Dr. Drew, because I`m tearing up. And it would not be pretty.

PINSKY: It`s sad. It`s terribly sad.

SCHABEL: It is very sad.

PINSKY: Yes. Tyler, your thoughts?

FARNSWORTH: Yes. I mean, the same thing. It`s sad because he`s not able -- he wasn`t able to accomplish all those things. Jodi took him from us. She kept him from accomplishing all those great things that he wanted to accomplish in his life.

PINSKY: And that family. That family they`ve lost something so vital. Mark, is all this going to come to bear in the final phases of this trial?

MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: You know, the Supreme Court has found that the death penalty is different. You should only give it in limited circumstances. And I think that when they hear from the victim`s family, especially, if they tell the jurors that this is what they want, that Travis also would want her to pay with the ultimate sanction, it`s going to be very difficult for them to turn their backs on the family and what they want after they`ve lost so much.

PINSKY: Loni, you agree?

LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: Yes, I do. And that`s a very effective part of the penalty phase is if they are able to say the family members and speaking for the victim, Travis, saying this is what we believe he would want. The jury really listens to that.

PINSKY: Well, Tyler, and Elisha, thank you so much for joining us. And really, we`ve all become very connected to the family and to the suffering. And I`m hoping this kind of wraps up and they can get on with their life a little bit. It`s just got to be excruciating. Thanks for joining us.

SCHABEL: Can I add --

PINSKY: Yes. Real quick.

SCHABEL: Can I add one thing?

PINSKY: Please.

SCHABEL: Travis was an amazing person. And his mess (ph) of a childhood became his message and he overcame that. He was stepping into his greatness (ph), and he was only just getting started. That`s why it was such a tragedy. And I would hope out of this trial and this tragedy, that we can all remember and believe in our own greatness and become better because we knew Travis.

PINSKY: There you go. Next up, we have an interview with the relatives.

FARNSWORTH: I ditto that.

PINSKY: Ditto, indeed.

We`ve got an interview with relatives. Changing topics here, that is -- what you`re seeing in that screen there is the Ohio kidnap -- brothers of the Ohio kidnapping suspect, the monster, the perpetrator, did some unbelievable things on three girls, actually, and a child. Hear what they knew about, the victims, and what they hope happens to their brother. Be right back.

RYAN SMITH, HLN ANCHOR: Jodi has talked other and over again about suicide. She`s written about it. She`s just brought it up a couple of days ago saying death is the ultimate freedom, Vinnie. But the big question is, does Jodi really want to live?

VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Yes, she does. I`ll prove it to our 12 in studio jurors. I`ll prove it to our online jury at home as well. While her voice may be saying she wants to die, her body is saying, yes, Ryan. And we`ll prove it tonight with my body language expert.

SMITH: All right. Come visit us, "Hln After Dark." We don`t sleep.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ariel Castro charged with kidnapping and rape on one charge, kidnapping and rape on the second, kidnapping and rape on the third, and kidnapping on the fourth.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. The arrest of kidnap suspect, Ariel Castro, last week ended a decade long nightmare for three young women. Another nightmare is beginning for Castro`s two brothers who were also arrested. We got an exclusive interview with them. Take a look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is your brother to you now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Monster, hateful. I hope he rots in that jail. I don`t even want them to take his life like that. I want him to suffer in that jail. To the last extent. I don`t care if they even feed him, what he has done to my life and my family`s.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel the same way.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To the both of you now, he no longer exists.





UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Almost as if he were dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The monster`s a goner.


PINSKY: Did he say a monster`s a goner? I like that. Behavior bureau is back with us. Now, we talk about -- I want to start -- I`ve got a million questions for the panel. I know Jenny you`ve got some, too. Samantha, I`m going to start with you. One of the things about this guy, this monster, is that he wrote in his journal that he had been sexually abused, and I would absolutely predict that would have been the case.

If somebody is going to be a perpetrator as an adult, the overwhelming probability is they were sexually abused. It`s not an excuse, it`s an explanation. People, if they were sexually abused and then they have urges towards children, they need to get help right away. They don`t let this happen.

My question now for Samantha is, why can`t the world kind of get up to speed with this reality? Why can`t we sort of talk about this in an intelligent way? People don`t want to hear it.

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, there`s a stigma for one. And unfortunately, even therapy is sometimes stigmatized. And what`s just horrific to me, I just have to address, watching that interview, is those poor brothers. They`re victims, too. And not only are they, like they said, essentially mourning the loss of their brother because he`s not the guy that they thought he was, but they`re also being presumed guilty by association.

They`re receiving death threats. People are vandalizing their homes. They have families, too. And I just can`t begin to grasp what they`re going through.

PINSKY: They`re part of the collateral damage of this monster. Again, their names are Pedro and Onil Castro. They all addressed in some footage, in this interview again, kidnapping a family friend, by the way, Gina Dejesus, and wondered how their brother could kidnap this girl and then comfort this girl`s mother and father. Take a look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Felix, I know him for a long time. And when I find out that Ariel had Gina, I just, I just broke -- I just broke down. And you got his daughter? And you go, you go around like it`s nothing? You even went to the vigils? You had posters? You give his mama a hug? And you got his daughter captive?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Yes. Who does that?



PINSKY: I`m glad they`re using the word "monster," Robi, do you agree?

ROBI LUDWIG, PSY.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I mean, listen, they know that their brother is very sick. Clearly, Ariel is a sexual sadist. And I think what people can do when they`re very sick is they compartmentalize. So, they cover for themselves. And part of the cover is to be super charming, super ingratiating, super loving in order to throw people off.

PINSKY: And --

LUDWIG: And very often it works. The person who`s sick is very likable.

PINSKY: Yes. Listen, and Robi -- and Jenny, listen to this, Jenny. He liked hanging around kids. He hung around kids all the time. My theory is this guy was a severe pedophile, and somehow, in his sick mind, he decided, well, I`m not going to act out on a bunch of kids, I`ll just take one in. He probably planned to kill her, I think, in reality. I`m going to work on this one. I`ll just destroy one as opposed to 50.


PINSKY: Unfortunately, hold that thought. We`ve got to go to break. We will be right back.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I couldn`t never think of doing anything like that. If I knew that my brother was doing this, I would not be, I would not, in a minute, I would call the cops, because that ain`t right. But, yes, it`s going to haunt me now, because people going to think Pedro got something to do with this and Pedro don`t have nothing to do with this. If I knew, I would have reported it, brother or no brother.


PINSKY: Back with the behavior bureau and my co-host, Jenny Hutt. I do believe Pedro. I do feel bad for him. I want to go first -- I know you`ve got a ton of questions, Jenny. First, go to Loni, I`m not used to dealing with these diabolical criminal types. What do you think of my theory that he`s crazed pedophile mind. He`s just going to do it on one and be OK. Just sacrifice one as opposed to God knows how many.

COOMBS: Yes. Yes. So, he can act out on this one, while he`s got thoughts, but all this actually has one and then two and three. Actually, they`re in his home. You know, I want to go back to what you said, Dr. Drew, about -- that he had some, you know, abuse in his past and why didn`t he get help. You know, I wrote this book, "You`re Perfect and Other Lies Parents Tell." It`s a parenting book from a criminal prosecutor`s point of view.

And I put a chapter in there that said could your child be a psychopath. And it talks about red flags for parents to look out when they`re kids have certain behaviors that make them wonder. And it was the one area of my book that the editors were nervous to back (ph) and saying, do you really want to go there?

There`s too much shame and secrecy around kids having issues, so parents don`t want to get help, and we need pinch (ph) out as a society so that parents can go out and say, my kid needs help. We need to get therapy. We need to get --

PINSKY: Lori, I agree. I agree. Danine, the scariest thing I ever hear parents say is not my kid. And by the way, the kids are very secretive about it. Sometimes, the parents don`t know. But really, if there`s anything that doesn`t seem right, get help.


COOMBS (ph): So, we heard it with Jodi.

PINSKY: Yes. Yes. Jodi and Casey. Listen, we`ve heard about with all these cases. Danine, go ahead.

DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: That`s something I brought up during the Jodi Arias trial was that, you know, her mother is talking about, her friends are calling her in the middle of the night, and she knew something was going on. Even though, you know, she was an adult when this happened, I`m sure that she started seeing signs of trouble well, you know, when she was a child.

And if my daughter`s -- I`m a parent. If my daughter`s friends are calling me telling me that this is -- she`s acting really strange and this is going on, me and my daughter are going to have to come to Jesus meeting. I mean, we are. We are going to sit down and we are going to try and figure out the strategy so that I can get her help. As a good parent, it`s not just about feeding and clothing, it`s dealing with their mental, emotional health needs.

PINSKY: If she had a fever, you take her in.


PINSKY: Jenny, you have a question?

JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: I do. So, I have a 14-year-old son and almost 13-year-old daughter. And this is all over the news. And we`ve been talking about it. My daughter is really scared now. She`s scared to walk any whereby herself. And frankly, I don`t blame her. How do you handle it with the kids?

PINSKY: I will have to answer that during the last call. It`s up next.


PINSKY: Jenny, I want to thank you for being my co-host this week. And to answer your question, I have a very limited time here, but A, you cannot make a child feel safe enough, reinforce safety. They`re going to be OK. B, perspective. They have a very grandiose perspective. These are very rare events. And C, this is an opportunity to teach. Keep the dialog going. There`s a lot to be learned by talking about people and their behavior in the media.

Thanks, Jenny. Thank you for watching. "HLN After Dark," I`ll see you there, it starts right now.