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First Degree Murder: Aggravation Phase; Love Turned Deadly; Angelina`s Surprise Decision
Aired May 14, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Jodi Arias, regrets, desires, and fears.
Plus, creative ways Jodi is trying to make money.
More of our exclusive look inside Travis Alexander`s memorial service. We know Jodi was there, but why?
And my thoughts on Angelina Jolie`s decision to tell the world she carries a gene that puts her at risk for breast cancer and to have a double mastectomy.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening, everybody.
My co-host this week is Sirius XM radio host and attorney Jenny Hutt.
And, Jenny, we`ve got a lot to get into tonight, including the Jodi Arias case. Guess what? It`s not over. We here at HLN, HLNTV.com, are not letting this one go. They were back in court today. More on that in just a second.
But first, Jodi`s regrets. Apparently she had regrets, Jenny. You might be surprised to know.
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Yes.
PINSKY: Go ahead. Not, I wouldn`t call them, what`s the word, contrition. She didn`t feel bad. She had regrets.
Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED MURDERER: There`s a lot of regret because I was really hoping to get a plea.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you scared when you think about that day?
ARIAS: It`s the very negative experience, and I wish I`d handled it differently. Sometimes I regret not making a record of these things.
REPORTER: Do you regret how you went about doing things after Travis was killed? After you killed Travis?
ARIAS: Yes. I think that I was just freaked out. I think that if I`d been honest from the beginning, I`d be in a different place. And so would everyone else.
I was very confident that no jury would convict me, because I planned to be dead. Probably the most bitter words I`ll ever eat.
REPORTER: If you had to do this all over again, you`re in the desert, you notice that you have blood on your hands, how do you handle it?
ARIAS: I would turn around and drive to the Mesa Police Department.
I would never harm him physically. I may have hurt him emotionally, and I`ll always regret that.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
PINSKY: Jenny, I have yet to hear her once say I regret killing Travis Alexander. I regret -- go ahead.
HUTT: She said she freaked out after the killing. Where`s the fog, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Well, I guess when you`re in a fog, it`s a little freaky. It`s a little freaky.
And she regrets hurting him emotionally. I regret not managing my case better. I regret not being better at lying or maybe regret not going right to the police and lying. It`s all bizarre.
HLN legal correspondent Beth Karas has the latest on a secret hearing today. It involved Jodi.
Beth, tell us about that.
BETH KARS, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we learned about it only because we started to see people arrive at the courthouse, Dr. Drew. In fact, Travis Alexander`s sister and brother, Steven and Samantha, went into the courthouse. The mitigation specialist caring clothes on the hanger. So, all signs that there was a hearing.
But they kept the courtroom doors locked. So, I waited patiently outside and peeked through the crack in the door to see the judge on the bench.
But we really don`t know the details about what went on except the sheriff`s office did issue a media advisory afterwards, saying that following the hearing, the judge ordered the sheriff`s office not to allow any more media interviews with Jodi Arias. So people have been lining up and putting in request to interview following the FOX 10`s Troy Hayden interview after the verdict.
And now, no one can get an interview until the judge lifts that order.
PINSKY: Very interesting. Thank you, Beth.
We`ve got our panel tonight. Attorney Mark Eiglarsh from speaktomark.com, Loni Coombs, author, attorney also, but author of "You`re Perfect, and Other Lies Parents Tell", and psychologist Wendy Walsh, author of the bestselling "The 30-Day Love Detox".
Now, Mark, I want to go to you. The judge is saying no more interviews. Do you think this hearing was called by Nurmi to try to get somehow gain control over his client?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Wow. The direct answer is I don`t know. It could have been called for a lot of reasons. It could have been Nurmi saying judge, now I`m telling you we have a conflict. I cannot deal with her any more. I can`t render effective assistance of counsel.
That could be one thing. I know that issue doesn`t go away.
The other thing is, there could be an issue that she`s trying to influence the jurors. That she planned this. That she`s doing everything she can to undermine what the judge is trying to do and that`s to give her a fair proceeding. So that probably is what came up.
PINSKY: Wow. Loni Coombs, I see you gently nodding your head. You agree?
LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: I do agree. You know, honestly, the judge probably would have put that order in place before this. If anyone anticipated that Jodi would walk rate out of the courtroom after that verdict and give an interview. It is, like Mark said, for the judge and the defense attorney, and actually the prosecutor, to everyone wants this trial to go through as cleanly as possible so that the verdict will stand in the end and not be reversed.
PINSKY: Now, last night, we told you that Jodi`s Twitter account was back up, but there were no tweets last night. Well, now she got a bunch of followers, bunch of tweets and she`s fund-raising. Here`s something from her -- yes. Jenny, sorry to nauseate you so late in the day.
Here`s what she says here, quote, "Any donations to me are made only at -- and then she names her support Web site -- and goes on to say, quote, "Any other source asking for donations is fraudulent. Thank you." Thank you and good night.
PINSKY: Now, Jodi was reportedly telling her friend Donovan. We`re going to show -- there`s Donovan. He`s the guy -- she is sitting next to grandma. Donovan sounds like a man`s name to me. She`s sitting next to grandma. And Jodi`s instructing her what to tweet.
Jenny, you want to respond? She has more than 60,000 followers now. Is that more than you`re getting?
HUTT: Seriously? Yes, it`s more than me, Dr. Drew. Thanks. Thanks, Dr. Drew.
Do I want to respond? Don`t give this woman any money. Seriously?
This is so disgusting. This is so vile. It`s got to end. It has to end.
PINSKY: Hang on, though. Hang on.
Mark, if she gets money, can`t the Travis Alexander family go after that, and wouldn`t we ultimately be giving it to them?
EIGLARSH: Yes. The answer is yes, if there is any money, but that money will be spent before the family ever sees a nickel.
The bigger issue is she`s a convicted murderer tweeting. So, the only thing that allows her to do that is this little document called the Constitution. I`m certain if our forefathers were here they`d say listen, did you do what you did so she could tweet? You`re not.
PINSKY: It`s not somewhere in the First Amendment about Twitter?
EIGLARSH: No. Nowhere. Not in there.
PINSKY: Jodi is out of the psych ward, guys. So we can stop fighting about that. She`s back in the regular jail.
But because of her conviction, her behavior, perhaps, presumably her suicidal threats, she`s in a cell alone, 23 hours a day. Strangely, she`s in the Maricopa County jail called the Star, only for stars like Jodi. Guards check on her every 15 minutes. And when she`s out, that one hour a day, she`s in leg and belly chains.
Wendy, has her suicidal talk painted her into a corner now?
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it literally has, hasn`t it? Literally and figuratively, she`s in a corner cell.
In a weird way, though, I`m sure it still feels good to her. Because, remember, she wants to be looked at. Now she`s being looked in on every 15 minutes.
So she is feeling like the star patient. Or she was the star patient. Now she`s the star prisoner in there.
But I think that what we were talking about earlier with this regret thing is what we`re all hoping to see, and this is why we`re looking so closely, Dr. Drew, is we want to see remorse. We want to see contrition. We want to see her hit rock bottom.
And all she`s doing is planning her next move, whether she`s using Twitter, whether she`s using press conferences. But this woman is still fighting to the last moment.
PINSKY: Yes. You know what? And mark and I, mark is actually on my podcast today. You can get that at DrDrew.com. It`s not up yet, but it will be soon.
We were talking about the fact of her rotting in jail and that this woman would not rot in jail, would she, Mark?
EIGLARSH: No. People don`t rot in jail, sorry to let you all know that. She, again, is the queen in jail, because she`s -- I don`t know -- revered by these people who think that maybe she was actually a victim of domestic violence. She`s high profile. She`s decent-looking to the other ones in there.
So she`s not rotting in jail, which is why I don`t know, many people are thinking alone on death row? Maybe.
PINSKY: And, Jenny, she`s not developing any contrition or regret or, you know --
PINSKY: That`s not going to happen.
WALSH: She has her supporters.
PINSKY: That`s right. That`s not going to happen. Got to break.
More of our explosive video from inside Travis Alexander`s memorial service. You see a little bit of that last night. That is his sister up there. A lot of you really reacted to these emotional eulogies.
We have these exclusively here on DR. DREW ON CALL. We`re going to get to more of it. It was deeply moving. Again, to me, between this video and the autopsy photos, you have what you need to know to get angry at Jodi Arias.
And later, how did Jodi do her post-verdict interview. And my, how did she do on that interview. And then at that time my panel will be handing out grades.
Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And she, she went, flew down to Arizona for, they had a memorial service at the Mormon church for him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did not meet Jodi Arias. She went to a memorial for Travis in Arizona and my other sister seen her there. And she wouldn`t look at them in the eye. They`d look at her, because we had already had the feeling that she had something to do with it, and she would look away.
ARIAS: I thought that if I didn`t show up, it would look suspicious because Travis and I were close. And a lot of people knew that.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
PINSKY: Time for the behavior bureau. Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt.
All right. Jodi, at the memorial. Jenny, your thoughts on that.
HUTT: Unconscionable, yet, again, Dr. Drew. And it`s bizarre to me that I keep being so freaked out by her behavior when she murdered somebody. So how I`m still freaked out by all that she does after and continues to do is beyond me. It just keeps coming at me.
PINSKY: Yes, it is interesting. She is a murderer. Let`s not forget, and yet we can`t look away from the craziness that followed, the lies, the manipulation, the showing up at inappropriate places, the flowers to the -- horrible stuff.
Joining in the behavior bureau, clinical psychologist Cheryl Arutt, Janine Driver, our human lie detector and author of "You Can`t Lie to Me", I beg your pardon, Janine is the author of "You Can`t Lie to Me". And Wendy Walsh is back, author of "The 30-Day Love Detox".
Wendy, Jodi said she went to the memorial because she didn`t want to appear suspicious.
WALSH: Well, I think that might be part of it, because she was very busy with her very busy brain trying to mop up any clues that maybe she was associated.
But, you know, there`s another piece of Jodi, and we all know her. That`s the drama queen. That`s the one that wants to insert herself so that she can get attention.
It`s almost like she`s watching the movie of her life, a movie of Travis` life. And the idea to play the role of grieving widow was too exciting for her.
PINSKY: Oh, my God. Janine, do you see anything here?
JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: Well, you know, first of all, I`m not surprised, when I was looking for behavioral patterns. We saw something similar with who? Casey Anthony.
Casey Anthony no longer worked at Universal Studios, but she took the police all the way to Universal Studios, passed security, down the hall, until she finally couldn`t get into the door where she literally worked. We see this type of behavior is indicative that this type of a murderer, this type of a murderer.
We saw it with Drew Peterson. He`s in jail for murdering his third wife. Stacey Peterson, fourth wife still missing.
What did he do? He kept going on "The Today" show. Stacy, come forward. The kids miss you. Please. One interview after another. This ego.
I`m not surprised that she showed up at the funeral.
PINSKY: Cheryl, help us understand. I see you nodding your head also. This is the psychopathic piece. It`s easy to forget what Casey did when she took four investigators on a mad ghost chase at Universal to see where she worked, where she didn`t ever been.
CHERYL ARUTT, PSYCHIATRIST: Exactly. Who does this? I mean, we look at Jenny going, I can`t believe it, I`m so floored that she did this behavior.
We expect most people to behave within certain parameters that we would or wouldn`t do. When you have somebody who is a sociopath and they have absolutely no sense of shame, embarrassment, conscience, they will go to these lengths and be completely unflustered. And to go to this memorial service and then to also send his treasured grandmother, flowers, lilies, you know, to take all of these decisions, it`s not unlike calling him and inviting him to if out to the theater the week after she killed him, or sending him emails. This is all calculated stuff that makes us go what?
PINSKY: How is that possible?
WALSH: I will remind you that O.J. Simpson attended Nicole Brown Simpson`s funeral, and it is a very common practice of murderers, because they hook at the statistical probability. I mean, some murderers get off. And I think that Jodi really felt that her brain was powerful enough.
PINSKY: She also felt justified. I mean, that`s the thing (INAUDIBLE) her point of view begged no alternative. He had it coming. That`s her point of view, therefore she was entitled to cover this all up and put her behind her.
I want you guys to -- there`s all the pictures of them in better days. It`s interesting, though, I talked to Dr. Archer, Dale Archer last night. And he was saying from his point of view as a psychiatrist, and he`s a fine psychiatrist, that she didn`t meet criteria for borderline or sociopath per se, which I find interesting. And I`m still chewing on it to this day.
Jenny, you want to react to that?
HUTT: Yes. I think whether she`s diagnosed as borderline or sociopath or psychopath before, clearly there`s something not right with that woman.
PINSKY: Well, that`s what I will say. Thank you, Jenny. Thank you for always taking it right back to the basics.
Anybody ever show of hands -- everybody agree with Jenny? Bottom line.
All right. Fair enough. We`re all in agreement.
Now, we have something here that we only have on this program. I really want to share with our viewers. We shared it yesterday. You guys responded very powerfully to it. And it is powerful video.
It`s never before seen video this time of Travis` sister at the memorial talking about Travis. Again, you can only see this footage here. I want to give you guys a chance to look at it. Here it goes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Besides our siblings, my brother was really close to our grandma, Norma. We called her mum mum (ph). Mum mum raised Travis since he was very young. And he was like a mother to her, and actually to most of us.
When Travis baptized me, my sister, Samantha, and my little brother Steven, I`m especially grateful that he was such a good example to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And if I remember right, mum mum is the one to whom Travis gave his, everything, his belongings, other than the dog in his will.
Janine, I`ll get your reaction to Travis` sister there. I mea, it`s pretty clear to everyone what she`s experiencing. Do you see anything that maybe some of us don`t?
DRIVER: I didn`t meet this sister. I met Tenisha (ph), I met a couple of the other family members when I was in court the last day Jodi was on the stand.
But I will say about this sister, she, the day that the verdict came out, Dr. Drew. Just seconds before the verdict came out, she was the one that was holding back and leaking the most sadness. And her whole jaw was just holding back, massive sadness.
Now, this is not the sister that let out that screech when it came out that it was first degree murder. But right at, just before that conviction came in, we saw massive sadness on her face. We see it here in this clip on the left of the screen. Genuine sadness. Your heart breaks for her.
And that`s the difference between her and Jodi Arias when she`s crying. When it`s genuine sadness, those inner eyebrows are pulled up, our heart breaks, we cry with them when we watch them and we just don`t have it with Jodi. But we have it with the family.
PINSKY: Janine, I want to ask you one another thing too. Last night, "AFTER DARK" had the temerity to have a body language specialist on who was not you. And she was talking about the same thing with the eyebrows, coming in and coming up or whatnot.
We know Jodi is so preoccupied with her looks. How do we know she hasn`t had Botox. Maybe that`s why Jodi`s forehead doesn`t move.
DRIVER: Well, it`s very interesting. Botox doesn`t last that long if she`s in jail.
PINSKY: If you have it enough times. She may have had it who knows how many times before all this happened.
DRIVER: It could be. But I`ll tell you what, Dr. Drew? If you have Botox, do you know what? Your heart will not beat fast enough to go into fight or flight into fear. So that would ruin the whole scenario of her having these memory gaps and fog.
Why? I come with a knife, you have Botox, because your eyebrows can`t go into a micro expression of fear, up and straight across, your heart literally cannot beat fast enough to go into fight or flight, go into that fear mode. Instead, you think, huh, they`re coming at me with a knife. I`m in danger.
So if it`s because she had Botox, then that rules out her whole --
PINSKY: All right. We can argue that. It`s an arguable point. I`ve got to take a break. Thank you, ladies.
How did Jodi do in her post verdict interview? The infamous interview, now that I guess there shall be no more of its kind because the judge has ordered it, thankfully. I have a panel handing out report cards about this interview.
And later, my thoughts on Angelina Jolie.
PINSKY: It`s time for our trial report card. I am back with my co- host Jenny Hutt.
Jenny, I have some really interesting news. I don`t think you this. We just got this during the break. We have here on this program, juror number eight tomorrow. We will have a chance --
PINSKY: Yes, we will be interviewing juror number eight. He is the juror who was kicked off the panel several weeks ago. And it will be fascinating to hear what he think -- first of all, what his perceptions were from the jury box and what he thinks his peers are think, what they`re likely going to do going forward. It should be interesting, do you agree?
HUTT: Oh, my God, so cool. I wish Jodi could tweet to her 40 kabillion followers that he`s going to be here.
PINSKY: Good. Maybe she could just give you some of her followers and you can tweet to them.
Now, there`s we`re going to now. We are going to grade how Jodi Arias did in her post verdict interview with the station KASZ, a television station. And we all know what I`m talking about. It`s the interview that caused so much consternation. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: I think I just went blank. I just feel overwhelmed. It was unexpected for me, yes, because there was no premeditation on my part. I hope now that a verdict has been rendered that they`re able to find peace, some sort of peace. I don`t think they`ll ever find the peace that they would like. But maybe they`ll be able to have greater peace.
I said years ago that I`d rather get death than life, and that still is true today. I believe death is the ultimate freedom. So I`d rather just have my freedom as soon as I can get it.
REPORTER: So you`d prefer having the death penalty than being in prison for life?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Janine, you first here. Did she accomplish anything at all for herself? Certainly she gave us all a lot to think about and react to. But did this backfire on her? She accomplished with.
DRIVER: I thought when we were working on the case together here, Dr. Drew, I thought it was Travis Alexander that was the comedian. I didn`t know that Jodi dabbled in comedy.
This was ridiculous. We saw three hotspots. I do not think it accomplished what she may have wanted to accomplish. Unless what she wanted to accomplish is just to be heard again. I think she`s been dying since day 18 on the stand to get back in front of the public eye.
But here are the three hotspots. She says it was not premeditated and nods her head, yes. Then she says the word premeditated again. This time she was not premeditated. Her tone and pitch goes down, Dr. Drew and Jenny. This is a sign of deception. Eighty-five percent of us, when we lie, we have a change in tone of pitch of voice. She`s almost inaudible.
We saw that with Scott Peterson. We saw that with Joran Vander Sloot, most like he killed Natalee Holloway. That decrease in tone and pitch. We heard that there.
And last and not the least, when Jodi says, I pray for every single juror every single day. I prayed for those jurors, she sticks out her tongue. And I`ve said this in the past, I`m going to say it again, when newborn babies, Dr. Drew and Jenny, don`t like food, they push out the food with their tongue. When an adult does not like the taste of something in their mouth, they push it out with a tongue protrusion.
PINSKY: It`s sort of a disgust move. I`m disgusted by you all. All right.
DRIVER: She does not like the taste of what the jury just gave her.
PINSKY: Got it. Interesting. Everybody hold your grades in the end. Mark, you next.
EIGLARSH: Well, it didn`t surprise me that she hurt herself and hurt her case. And I really didn`t care about that.
What bothered me the most, and I think it was said by one of your guests previously to some extent. This was the day that the Alexander family and for the most part, all of us, were waiting for all these years, justice, this was the verdict that spoke the truth.
And she pulled a Kanye West. And she took away that moment for a period of time and we started to talk about her and this interview and I find that more abhorrent than anything.
PINSKY: Very interesting. Loni, you?
COOMBS: Yes, I think as far as Jodi`s concerned she`s probably pleased as punch which is what she wanted, to put herself in the spotlight rather than the victim`s family. It should have been their moment.
It reminded me of that movie, quote, "Nobody puts baby in the corner." That was her proclamation. I am here. Don`t think you`re going to put me aside just because you convicted my of first degree murder.
However, there were two unintended consequences that I think she did not expect. One was, she cannot ever take blame or fault or say I`m sorry.
PINSKY: That`s right.
COOMBS: That`s apparent in that interview. And I think that will come to haunt her if this gets to the penalty phase.
The second thing is, despite her very meticulous parsing and she`s very good at this, she tried to may the martyr, manipulator, by saying I don`t want the death penalty and play on the jurors, but what it did instead was it triggered the warden to throw her in the psych ward which I think is the last place she wants to be, because it`s a control freak, you go into the psych ward and everything is taken away from you. You have control over nothing. And for Jodi Arias, I think that`s true hell.
PINSKY: So, Loni, I think you agree with what I`ve been yelling about for the last two days, which is that they`re going to crash down consequences every time she steps out of line.
COOMBS: I do.
PINSKY: Including threatening sue identify.
COOMBS: I agree with that, how much, I don`t think she is suicidal. If you go back and listen to her words, she never says the word suicide. She`s talking about whether she gets the death penalty or life.
EIGLARSH: Let`s not start this debate again.
PINSKY: Mark, turn the fog on maybe you can escape that way.
I have a caller --
EIGLARSH: Don`t start that debate in this segment.
PINSKY: I have a caller who wants to give a grade, Brian. He`s in Alaska.
Brian, what`s your grade for Jodi on that interview?
BRIAN, CALLER FROM ALASKA: I give her a Z minus is there was one. Her comments were inappropriate. But then again, this is Jodi.
PINSKY: Yes, that`s the question, Brian, is the grade good if you`re from Jodi`s perspective, which is what drive us all nutty. Which is -- is this, was this some sort of weird manipulation by asking the jury to give her the death penalty?
Anybody have an opinion about that on the panel?
HUTT: Yes, yes.
PINSKY: Jenny, go.
EIGLARSH: I said it was reverse psychology.
PINSKY: Jenny, go.
EIGLARSH: I said it was reverse psychology.
PINSKY: Jenny, go.
HUTT: Yes. I agree with you, Dr. Drew. I think this was her intent was to sort of do what she does all along. You`ve said it before, Dr. Drew. She`s an emotional terrorist. And, once again, that`s what she was doing in this interview.
PINSKY: And again, I think --
COOMBS: And she does not want the death penalty. She does not want the death.
PINSKY: She wants not to be connected to her murderous rage. We know she has murderous rage because we`ve seen the consequences of it. She`d still in her. She`s disavowing it, putting it on the jury, and go, now ,you act out my murderous rage on me. It`s crazy. It`s crazy. It`s a manipulation I`ll grant you, but it`s not a logical or conscious manipulation, I don`t think.
OK. Let`s give grades, everybody. Loni, your grade, first up.
COOMBS: Well, because of the unintended consequences, I give her a D.
PINSKY: D. Jenny, your grade.
HUTT: I give her an A, because I think that her intent was to be back in the public eye and have all of us talking about her and she succeeded in that endeavor.
PINSKY: Wait a minute. Mark, before you give your grade. How about that?
EIGLARSH: What? An A? I wouldn`t give her an A for anything. Listen, your producer called me and my knee jerk was F and then I said hold on. Sometimes, we give our first thoughts and those aren`t correct. So, I stopped. I thought about it. I really analyzed it, and then F.
PINSKY: Thank you. Thank you. Fair enough. Janine, your grade.
JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: The only way I`d give that grade that Jenny just gave is just the word "hole" went after it.
PINSKY: Oh! Brutal.
EIGLARSH: Can you say that? Are you allowed to say that?
PINSKY: She did. It`s all good. She did. Now, what is the grade then, Janine?
DRIVER: It is an F, an F for funny, because I thought it was absolutely ridiculous. I don`t think it worked in her favor. An F. Funky (ph), failure, phony, but phony is a P.
PINSKY: Two Fs. Jenny, let`s add up the score and get the GPA. Two Fs, one D, and A. That is a 1.25. That is an -- oh 2.34, it says. I have 1.25. Wait a minute. I thought it`s a -- I thought it -- two Fs and a D, you are going to get -- you`re not going to get far out of the D zone with that. Here`s what we`ve learned today. My producers need to go back and take remedial arithmetic. That`s what we`ve learned, first and foremost.
DRIVER: And we all need to forgive Jenny for making --
EIGLARSH: AND jenny needs to work on her scoring.
HUTT: Guys, you`re wrong. You`re missing my point. She`s not likeable. She never will be likeable. She didn`t make us, all of a sudden, have compassion for her, but we`re talking and we`re watching and we`re paying attention and that`s what she thrives on.
PINSKY: From a standpoint --
PINSKY: Loni first. Janine, hold on. Loni, go. Loni.
COOMBS: I agree with Jenny. I think Jodi accomplished in her mind what she wanted to do which is bring the attention and the spotlight back to her. Make everybody talk. But I think she also had these unintended consequences along with it.
PINSKY: This is that crazy split we`re all experiencing around Jodi. From Jodi`s perspective, mission accomplished. From human perspective or sort of normal perspective, F.
DRIVER: And Mark and I are right tonight. Mark and I are finally right. We`re both on the right page.
PINSKY: Well, for the moment. Don`t hold your breath ladies and gentlemen.
Next up -- thank you, guys. Mystery surrounding the shooting death of a Florida man is this ooh, pretty blonde girl. A new Jodi Arias.
And later, Angelina Jolie underwent a double mastectomy to reduce her chances of getting breast cancer. She has a gene. We`re going to question whether or not that`s too radical. Should you (ph) have hysterectomy as well? We will talk to one of our own producers who had the same procedure for the same reason. Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Another boyfriend with a bullet to the head and conflicting stories from his girlfriend on how the fatal event unfolded. But this isn`t the Jodi Arias story. Caryn Kelly faces manslaughter charges, accused of the July 2011 shooting death of her boyfriend, Philip. Caryn claims innocence. The prosecutors say cell phone video recorded the day of the deadly shooting coupled with Caryn`s 911 call.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He shot himself.
PINSKY: Do nothing to save her case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. And just a reminder for everybody, we`ve just learned we will be interviewing juror number eight tomorrow. Again, this is the juror who was kicked off the jury a couple of weeks ago, I guess, several weeks ago. But, Jenny, you and I will dig into this and try to see what he has seen.
HUTT: I`m so excited.
PINSKY: Yes. How it looks from his perspective, what he thinks the other jurors are thinking, and what about this upcoming penalty phase, what he figures they`re going to do with that?
Joining us, Mark Eiglarsh, Loni Coombs, and Janine Driver. And joining the panel as well now is Diana Tennis. She is the defense attorney representing the woman you were just hearing about, Caryn Kelly. We will talk to Diana in just a moment. But first, let us listen to the 911 call her client placed during the early hours of July 27, 2011.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my god, my gun went off in the house. My boyfriend just died. He needs an ambulance, 911.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Listen to me. I`m going to transfer you to paramedics. They`re going to give you CPR instructions, OK? Don`t hang up. Don`t hang up, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need to know what to do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Listen to me. I`m going to transfer you. Don`t hang up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Exactly what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just get somebody here quick! He was shot in the head with a gun.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Listen to me. Did he shoot himself? Yes or no?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. It was like (INAUDIBLE) it was an accident. It was an accident.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you have the gun?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did, but it was an accident.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. I understand it`s an accident. Where`s the gun now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the floor in my bedroom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Where are you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In my bedroom with him. Come on baby. Come on baby. Stay with me. Come on honey. Come on. Oh, my God. He put a gun to his hid and he goes just let me do it. He was joking but boom, it went off.
PINSKY: OK. So, it`s confusing. She`s obviously very upset. Reasonably so. First, Caryn says her boyfriend did not shoot himself, then she tells the operator he had put the gun to the head, then she said it was accident -- very confusing. Diana, help us understand what happened.
DIANA TENNIS, ATTORNEY FOR CARYN KELLY: Well, it is very confusing, because Caryn Kelly did what innocent people do, and that is they pick up the phone immediately after a horrible accident in front of them. And they pray, pray, pray that the person who accidentally got shot survives. They certainly don`t sit around concoct a story, come up with a chronology that`s going to make the most sense to law enforcement.
Caryn Kelly told the 911 operator, he came in, he took the gun, he shot himself. She said the same thing out in the front yard a few minutes later. And she told the same thing to law enforcement. At this point, everybody essentially agrees she thought he left at about midnight. He came back for whatever reason at 4:30 a.m. She did not know who was in the house.
She is cowering in her room with a gun, her gun, when he comes through the house, enters the room, and decides for whatever reason to take that gun from her. There`s a struggle and he shot.
PINSKY: I`m going to give my panel, I`m sorry to interrupt. I`m going to give Mark, I see you have a question for Diana. Go ahead.
EIGLARSH: Yes. First of all, interesting disclosure. Diana and I are not only friends, but we have a big case together here in Florida. She`s a terrific lawyer and this defendant is very lucky to have you. However, I`ve looked at the evidence and there are some challenges, Diana. I`m going to ask you about it. There is a video of her immediately upon her arrest in front of her house where she`s not impaired. This girl is wasted.
PINSKY: Mark, I`m going to show that evidence after the commercial break. OK? We`re going to actually air that, and then, you can continue with your question for Diana after that. How about that?
PINSKY: All right. Thank you, guys. Stay with us.
EIGLARSH: Fair enough.
PINSKY: Again, we will see -- Jenny, you have something to say before we go?
HUTT: I have a question --
PINSKY: OK. Good. All right. You`ll see the video. It was recorded by investigators after the shooting death of her boyfriend. Obviously, it`s very difficult material, so hang with me.
And, later, Angelina Jolie underwent a double mastectomy to reduce her risk of breast cancer. We will discuss that after this.
RYAN SMITH, HLN ANCHOR: "HLN AFTER DARK" tonight and the bold accusation, Jodi killed with cruelty. This is ultimately what Juan Martinez is trying to prove in that courtroom.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: He`s got to prove it if he wants to get to the next phase, which is the death penalty phase. We`ve got 12 jurors in studio tonight. We`re going to do -- I`m going to try to do what Juan Martinez has to do tomorrow tonight on "HLN After Dark."
SMITH: And the defense will argue the other side. We`ll see what they have. "HLN After Dark."
POLITAN: Good luck, defense.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He took my arm. He took the handle, and he put it to his head. Do you want to shoot me? Do you want to shoot me? I go don`t do this. It`s loaded. Don`t do this. It`s loaded.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, and my panel. That was the cell phone video of Caryn Kelly that Mark Eiglarsh was referring to. It was recorded by investigators following the shooting death of her boyfriend. Again, with our panel is Diana Tennis. She`s the attorney representing Caryn Kelly in her upcoming trial.
Let`s take a look, quickly, Mark, I`ll a let you follow up with some questions. We`re going to take a look quickly at some more of the video and then we`ll talk.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was talking about leaving, and I said "don`t leave." "Don`t drive drunk. You`re stupid if you leave," and he came back. And I go, "don`t drive drunk." And I said, "if you come back to the house, I mean, you know, I have a weapon, and, you know I`m going to use it if you`re coming in my house and I don`t know who it is." So, I went to bed. And all of a sudden, I wake up in the middle of the night and someone is in my house.
And I said, "Phillip, you know I have a weapon. Don`t do this." I was like, "hey, don`t come here with me." And he was like, "don`t, you`re not." He put it to his head, "you`re going to shoot me. Going to shoot me?" And it went off. I`m like "oh, my God." I didn`t ever mean to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right, Mark, go ahead, your question for Diana.
EIGLARSH: Diana`s a terrific attorney. I`m eager to know how she`s going to spin that video. You don`t have David Copperfield. And at best, you`re going to argue what her speech isn`t slurred? She was merely talking in cursive? What are you going to do with this?
TENNIS: Well, it really isn`t that much of a mystery, Mark. If law enforcement was that concerned about her alcohol having been a factor, they might have A, asked her to take a breath test, B, asked her to pee in a cup, or C, ask her if she had (inaudible) to drink, not the first question about anything related to alcohol or drugs or anything else.
But more importantly, Mark, is this, the evidence is clear. She`s in a nightgown. She`s sleeping alone in her bed. Her boyfriend who does not live with her, fully dressed, keys still in the garage door where he let himself into her house at 4:30, enters the house without permission, without notice, whether she still had alcohol in her system from five hours prior or not, she`s entitled to take again out in her own bedroom to protect herself.
PINSKY: All right.
TENNIS: He doesn`t have the right to come in, attack her physically, and take it from her. Accidents happen. That`s what happened.
PINSKY: Got it. Quickly, Janine, you said you believe her. Then we got to go to break.
DRIVER: I believe she`s telling the truth. She`s doing an illustrator. She`s demonstrating. I think it went off by mistake. She`s screaming, help me, please. Make it sweetie pie. Help -- this is indicative of someone who`s telling the truth. I don`t think the case is going to be as hard as some people might think.
PINSKY: And Jenny agrees. Just judging by your expressions there.
PINSKY: Thank you, guys.
Next up, Angelina Jolie underwent a double mastectomy to reduce her chance of developing breast cancer. Is that appropriate?
And later, remembering a TV pioneer who is also a psychologist. Back after this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Welcome back to CBS this morning. Angelina Jolie reveals she had a double mastectomy, even though she doesn`t have cancer. We`ll look at the genetic testing that drove her decision.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s get right to our today`s take three. Starting with Angelina Jolie. This has been an all over the place this morning. "New York Times" op-ed published 37-year-old Angelina Jolie revealing she had preventative double mastectomy which produced her chances of getting breast cancer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Breaking overnight, Angelina Jolie and her drastic decision to have a secret double mastectomy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And also, we have the latest on the big headline overnight from Angelina Jolie about a double mastectomy. How she kept the surgery secret? Why she says her mom inspired her? And the revelation that she did it all for her kids.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. And again, this is news that many people woke up to today that is that actress, Angelina Jolie, underwent a double bilateral mastectomy. It was done because of her having had the BRCA gene. Getting the mastectomy would reduce her chance of getting breast cancer from about 87 percent to less than half percent. Now, this is something we`ve talked about at this program.
Actress, Christina Applegate, and former "American Idol" host, Kara DioGuardi, also had similar procedures for same genetic reasons. Jenny, are you familiar with this procedure --
HUTT: Oh, I`m --
HUTT: Totally -- yes. I lost my mom to pancreatic cancer, and she had to be tested for the BRCA gene. And thankfully, she didn`t have it. So, my sister and I -- clear. I think neither of my parents have it. But, if I had had it, I would have gotten for sure a bilateral --
PINSKY: Right. Let`s explain that to people. This is a gene for certain populations. It`s certain kinds of -- again, it`s a little bit complicated, genetically, but it puts you at added risk for breast cancer and ovarian cancer. Maybe colon cancer as well. Joining us is one of producers, Wendy Brokaw, who also had had the preventative bilateral mastectomy more than seven years ago.
Wendy, when you heard about Angelina Jolie, what were your first thoughts?
WENDY BROKAW, DR. DREW PRODUCER WITH CANCER GENE: Well, if I had to give her a grade, please let me give her an A plus, plus, plus, plus. So, I couldn`t be more thrilled that someone that is, I mean, the world`s most famous woman is going to now share with the world something that is going to educate the world and potentially save so many lives. So, I was very happy to hear her come public with her news.
PINSKY: It`s funny. I was on "The View" last week with Kara DioGuardi who came public with the same thing. She`d already had hysterectomy and the ovaries taken out. She was going to go forward with the breast procedures, and a lot of people think, oh, this is so radical, but these days, these procedures, the breast procedures are extremely good, particularly, when you can plan ahead like this and do it without disfigurement.
Do you have any recommendations for people as it pertains to the availability of these sorts of procedures and encouraging them to get them rather them feeling as, oh, they`re going to be disfigured and harmed by it.
BROKAW: Yes. I feel like there are so many amazing options out there. We have the luxury right now knowing that if you have the gene, we can research it. We`re not one of these people that are finding out after the fact and have to make quick decisions. There are so many beautiful reconstructive options out there. You can ask my husband. He`s very happy with the results.
PINSKY: You know, I`m an internist by training, so this stuff is very big to me. Get your colonoscopies, everybody. People should not be died of colon cancer in this day and age. Get your BRCA testing done and get the procedures (ph). Take your vaccines that are necessary to prevent cancer like these things for HPV vaccine. Do these things because they can dramatically reduce your risk.
There`s no reason not to. And by the way, some people may elect for more aggressive sorts of screening procedures and monitoring. That`s fine as long as it`s really carefully thought about with your doctor for your particular care. Thank you, Wendy, for joining us.
Next up, I`m going to talk about Joyce Brothers. Back after this.
PINSKY: Just want to take a second to talk about Dr. Joyce Brothers. You see there. She died recently at the age of 85. And before there was Dr. Drew and Dr. Ruth and Dr. Oz and anyone else that had a professional training in medicine or in health care was on television, she was the one that paved the way for everyone else that followed.
She was on a multiplicity of television program. She was always exploring ways that she could deliver her messages. I actually worked with her back in the mid-1990s on the Lizzie Gibbon show (ph) when she had a show during the daytime. She was a lovely woman. She`ll be profoundly missed. And hats off to Joyce Brothers for having paved the way for the rest of us. Do appreciate it.
Reminder, we have juror number eight tomorrow. Thank you, Jenny Hutt. We`ll be at that juror, you and I. He`s the one that got kicked off several weeks ago. Thank you all for watching. Yes, you can`t wait. It`s very interesting.
HUTT: I can`t.
PINSKY: "HLN After Dark" starts right now.