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Penalty Phase: Jodi Arias on Trial
Aired May 16, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Jodi Arias, the penalty phase.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The nature of my brother`s murder has had a major impact on me.
PINSKY: Travis Alexander`s family shares their pain and anguish.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have nightmares have somebody coming after me with a knife and then going after my wife and daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We could give anything to have him back. Anything.
PINSKY: And Jodi`s team puts up their best fight.
KIRK NURMI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You`ve heard mitigating circumstances about Ms. Arias` artistic talent. One of you could find that to be mitigating.
PINSKY: Our behavior bureau and Travis` friends join us to weigh in on an emotional day.
Let`s get started.
PINSKY: Good evening. Thank you for joining us.
And my co-host, attorney and Sirius XM radio host, Jenny Hutt.
Coming up, we also have a couple of close friends of Travis Alexander who once invited Jodi Arias to live with him. That`s right. This man was close enough to Jodi to think it was a good idea to bring her into his house. And he`ll have a chilling thought or two about that.
But first, on the program last night, we showed you clips of Jodi`s reactions as for extreme cruelty described to the jury. Tonight, we are not starting with Jodi, because when Travis` brother and sister spoke, it was not about Jodi. It was about the anguish she created for their family.
Take a look.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t want to have to see my brother`s murderer anymore. I thought my brother was bulletproof. He was unbreakable. He was in two motorcycle crashes and walked away unharmed. He wrecked several cars, and nothing happened to him. He rolled a snowmobile, and, again, not a scratch.
TRAVIS ALEXANDER, VICTIM: Did a barrel roll like Top Gun, dude, like Maverick style. Thing fell, landed on me, didn`t break a thing because I`m unbreakable like Bruce Willis.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Travis wasn`t anything but a loving brother, son, grandson and friend. And he motivated us with topics he will never be allowed to live out. I called my grandma`s house and my sister answered the phone.
She screamed at me. She said, Samantha, Travis is dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much did he suffer? How much did he scream?
PINSKY: Very emotional day. HLN correspondent Jean Casarez is outside the court house.
Jean, can you give us an update now?
JEAN CASAREZ, HLN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the morning was so emotional. I think many of us had never seen anything like it even though we`d been around victim impact statements for so long. And then the lunch hour came, and then it was time for the defense because they`ve got the burden in this part of the penalty phase.
And so, I saw the defense mitigation witnesses. I saw Daryl Brewer (ph) in the courtroom. I saw who I believe was Patty Womack who was the good childhood friend.
But then all of a sudden nothing happened in that courtroom. And then I see the family members of Travis Alexander go through the door toward the judge`s chamber. And that`s what this means, because of victim`s Bill of Rights, they can be present at any legal proceeding that`s taking place with the court reporter, so something was being put on the record.
Then, we are all told we have to leave the courtroom. And we`re out there and we`re out there, and nothing happened.
And Jodi`s family, her mother was standing out there. And I do want to say, her mother came it me to say something, Dr. Drew. And I want to get this out, because she is a mother and she cares.
And she told me, and I heard it myself on another show last night, a court watcher, someone of the public was sitting behind her and said that when the verdict was delivered saying that Jodi cruelly killed Travis that Jodi`s mother said this is the beginning of the end. She told me, Jean, I didn`t say that. She said I would not say that about my daughter in that courtroom when that verdict came out. And she wanted that message --
PINSKY: How did she seem to you, Jean? Was she shaken? Was she forthright? What was your sort of reaction and take on the mom?
CASAREZ: She`s trying to be really strong, because her husband is not here. She is the mother. And she is trying desperately to maintain her strength.
PINSKY: It`s more of Jodi`s collateral damage.
Thank you very much, Jean. Appreciate that report.
Welcome in our panel. Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at speaktomark.com, Lisa Bloom, attorney and legal analyst at avo.com, and Janine Driver, our human lie detector and author of "You Can`t Lie to Me".
Today was all about the family, Travis and his family.
Janine, I want to go to you. It was moving. I mean, it`s just -- I`ve got a lot to say about it.
Let`s start with Janine, because I want to know -- Janine, with your lie detector eye, did you see anything real from Jodi today?
JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: Oh, you know, it`s interesting. There was genuine sadness, believe it or not, on Jodi`s face, but it`s so interesting. From my perspective, I`m not a psychologist, but when I`m looking at Jodi, I`m thinking she`s thinking in her head, I wish I had people that would cry over me. I wish I had people that cared about me to a level where they are in pain.
We see the brother showing rage. His teeth are literally gritting leak an angry dog. We see his micro expression of disgust when he talks about what`s happening.
We see the sister completely devastated, again with those inner eyebrows. Watching it your heart breaks. I was talking to my friend Terry and Amy, and I was saying, look it, we were all emotionally crying -- and angry at the same time.
But Jodi Arias, there was genuine sadness there. We just don`t know why it was there.
PINSKY: Jenny, you have a question?
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Yes, well, that`s -- Janine, I think the sadness, clearly wasn`t about her feeling contrition. I think it was about feeling like, you`re right, like A, she`s caught, B, why don`t they love her.
And is that why you think she wants to speak now? To get her attention back? To get the spotlight back on her?
DRIVER: You know, from my perspective, Jenny and Dr. Drew, we make big mistake when we call ourselves a body language expert. And we say we see this and it`s there because of this.
You always have to get a baseline. And we look for a hot spot. I saw genuine sadness on Jodi`s face. I don`t know what the catalyst is.
I have a hunch it`s not remorse because we haven`t seen that. So, I agree with you, Jenny.
PINSKY: It`s something disturbing.
DRIVER: I don`t have those kind of friends. I wish I had that.
Now, speaking of Jodi getting the spotlight, Jenny, apparently the most recent tweet from her, from the account Jodi Ann Arias. That`s her account again. The quotation is from a current leader in the Mormon Church.
Get this quote, "God`s love is so great that he loves even the proud, the selfish, the arrogant and the wicked."
Jenny, but I think anybody reading that would think, oh, maybe she`s getting contrite, she`s looking for forgiveness.
PINSKY: Hang on a second, guys. Who said no? Was that Jenny?
Mark, I want to get it from you, though. Do you see any hint of a spiritual awakening here? Or is it as I suspect -- she`s actually pointing that at us and the jury and saying, God will forgive you for doing what you`ve done?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: It could be that, but it`s also, we say how do you live with yourself after you`ve done something like that. And she`s trying to rationalize. She has to find self preservation, some way to live with herself for what she has done.
And I don`t believe that those tears in any way were the same type of tears that we would drop under these circumstances. I believe the part of that is that my God, I am now going to spend the rest of my life potentially on death row. That is where I don`t want to be.
So I know that my game plan calls for showing the effect that will increases my chances of getting to that other place where I can live as the queen of sumunda (ph).
PINSKY: Queen of sumunda.
EIGLARSH: Where he brought tears, that`s it.
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: And there`s a but though.
PINSKY: Well, what`s the but?
EIGLARSH: The movie is coming to America.
BLOOM: OK. Yes, of course, the Christian religion does bestow forgiveness. And a lot of people behind bars latch onto religion as some kind of forgiveness. But you have to ask for forgiveness.
PINSKY: Right. Lisa --
BLOOM: You have to show remorse. She has not done that. And I don`t think it`s going to happen on Monday.
PINSKY: That`s what I want to ask you. You don`t think it`s going to happen on Monday. And has she gone completely rogue, guys, my attorneys? Is she calling all the shots and making the attorneys completely crazy?
BLOOM: It is her case. She has the right to call the shots.
PINSKY: Well, to a point. I mean, not falling, to the point where the case is being destroyed in the eyes of her attorneys, I can`t -- people want off the case, it`s like a sinking vessel and everyone is trying to get off.
EIGLARSH: I want to address something.
PINSKY: All right. Go. You.
EIGLARSH: Everybody`s very concerned now this is some type of maneuver to win her appeal when she ultimately files an O.J., which is pointing at your lawyer and saying they didn`t give you effective assistance of counsel. It`s not a question of will she -- she definitely will.
But what we`ve seen, in spite of Nurmi not standing here, in spite of Nurmi being frustrated, she`s getting in a way of him doing his job, he is giving effective assistance of counsel. He`s getting up there and doing his job to the level that is required for the appellate court to say that`s enough. You got good enough counsel.
PINSKY: We have a new legal terminology. So, Nurmi`s not doing an O.J. -- excellent.
Next up, I`m going to share with the behavior bureau on Travis` sisters emotional impact statement.
And later, why would Travis` close friend invite Jodi to live with him. He will share that story with us.
Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am a police officer, and some of these photos are more gruesome than I have ever seen in my 11 years in law enforcement. Our minds are permanently stained with the images of our poor brother`s throat, slit from ear to ear. Our minds are stained with the images of Travis` body slumped dead in the shower.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Very powerful.
Back to discuss with my behavior bureau and my co-host Jenny Hutt, and the human lie detector, Janine Driver.
Joining us all, clinical psychologist Cheryl Arutt, psychologist Robi Ludwig, author of "Till Death Do Us Part", and psychologist Wendy Walsh, author of "The 30-Day Love Detox".
We just watched a clip of Travis` sister Samantha. She`s a police officer. She said she`s never seen such a horrific thing as the autopsy photos of her brother. This is a law enforcement officer.
I got a bunch of feelings about Samantha. We`re watching there. I`m really wondering if you guys are all having the same experience I`m having.
I want to go around the horn. What is you guys reaction to both the brother and the sister?
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I mean it`s just so powerful. And that`s why the victim`s impact statement is so important. We really see the impact this loss has had on the family.
And I think when you hear the sister talk, I really was seeing the imagery of her looking at her brother in this gruesome state. And I think everybody can identify oh, my goodness, if this was my family member, how horrible would this be? It`s very traumatic. I think we feel her trauma.
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think she`s such a credible person to be able to speak to this because in fact she is a police officer. And when she made that statement, Dr. Drew, about, you know, I`m a police officer and I`ve seen gruesome photos nothing as bad as this, my heart went into my throat. This is her brother she`s talking about.
That`s powerful for the jury.
PINSKY: Yes, I`m sure the jury had just -- I heard the jury had trouble looking at them. I`m not surprised. It`s too intense.
Janine, I saw also particularly with the sister, particularly, the eyebrow maneuvers that you`ve been asking us to look for in Jodi that we haven`t been seeing.
DRIVER: Right. Not only did we see that, but when we talk about his throat slit one end of the other. Her arms across, Dr. Drew, and you her left hand has crossed over here at one side, while the right hand is relaxed, and her left hand in the light fist. And when she talks about her brother being slit, you see literally her threat bulges out and she implodes a little bit, she pulls in. When we implode we become a smaller target.
So it`s as if she`s reliving what her brother went through, trying to become that smaller target and that moment. And just watching Samantha again, that could be displayed, I am brought to tears and emotional.
And she`s likeable. She`s pretty and likeable.
PINSKY: Well, Janine, that`s the point.
I want to talk to Cheryl about this. I think she`s immobilizing something in me, Cheryl, and it`s my co-dependency. I want to go save her and rescue her and make her feel better and say -- but I think it -- it feels, I`ve instructed my procedures to call her my Samantha, because I feel some damn bad for this woman. I feel so protective.
Here`s a law enforcement officer. She would not give me a break if I sped through Carlsbad on the 405. Trust me. She would -- I expect her to do her job.
But in this role as sister and as an advocate for her brother, it`s just so moving. And I`m wondering if everyone else is having that same reaction -- Cheryl.
ARUTT CHERYL, PSYCHOLOGIST: Dr. Drew, I know you`re thinking of it as your pathology or your co-dependency, but what about, what if it`s just empathy and compassion? These people have been through such a devastating loss. And their pain is so palpable.
We have these mirror neurons inside that respond to what we see in somebody else. And I really think as much as you see and you notice that powerful reaction that you`d normally check if you were treating somebody.
ARUTT: I think when we see this in this family going through this, it`s just human.
PINSKY: Yes, just so powerful.
Jenny, did you have as much -- I didn`t have -- I felt terrible for the brother, but I had such a powerful reaction to Samantha. You?
HUTT: I understand why you had such a powerful reaction to Amanda, and I think what makes you feel so terrific that you do feel that level of compassion and empathy for somebody else.
Look, she`s incredibly strong and I think watching someone who`s so strong and able to stand up and deliver the message she had to deliver to that room and to that jury, how wonderful Travis was, how devastated they all were by his loss, how brutal a killing it was -- I think the way that she was able to deliver that, that strength with that sadness just went right through.
HUTT: I think that`s why we`re gripped. It`s a dichotomy.
WALSH: Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Well, go ahead, Wendy. I just want to make sure everyone is having to experience.
PINSKY: Wendy first and then Janine.
WALSH: Dr. Drew, do you think there`s a gender piece here in that women tend to be more emotional. They tend to be more verbal and they`re more expressive and that`s why she got us more.
PINSKY: Yes. I think -- well, I wonder if it was my gender thing too that was playing out here. The fact that you`re women and you reacted also I think is very powerful as well.
DRIVER: Samantha is the staple, right? So, we`ve seen Samantha and Tenisha (ph) throughout the whole entire trial.
You know, she has a job. They don`t live up the street from here. She`s a staple in this trial we`ve seen the whole time.
That gasp that we heard when it came out as first degree was I believe her.
PINSKY: I agree.
DRIVER: We see her in a white, she leans down, she gasps.
So, to hear her speak, I think we`ve been dying to hear her voice and to hear that just that sadness that comes pouring out of this strong woman who is such a strong staple just pulls at us so quickly.
PINSKY: Yes. You know what? It`s interesting.
HUTT: But I have to say --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Jenny.
HUTT: I just wanted to say that I thought the brother --
PINSKY: Let me explain to the viewers. We have these delays that make it jerky for us.
Jenny, you go.
HUTT: OK. I think the brother was also quite powerful, hearing how his life has fallen apart in the aftermath was unbelievably sad. It`s beyond just that he lost his brother. I mean, his brother, it`s beyond that, he lost his whole world. So I --
PINSKY: Well, Jenny, he has post-traumatic stress disorder, too. He`s waking up in the middle of the night with night terrors. He can`t concentrate. He`s taking medication.
And, by the way, he seemed surprised that the medication wasn`t working. It`s too powerful. We`re going to talk about that in the next block as well.
I want to take a quick call from one of our viewers. It is James in Alabama.
You`ve got a question for the behavior bureau? James?
Maybe he doesn`t.
ARUTT: Dr. Drew, can I ask you something?
PINSKY: Please do, Cheryl.
ARUTT: Do you think that maybe your reaction to your own reaction might have something to do with the fact that you were watching authentic feelings and we`ve been spending so many weeks watching fabricated feelings?
PINSKY: Yes, I do. And to me, this woman in the blue, Samantha, the police officer has been the human being in the mix that I`ve been able to look at for real feelings, all through this whole thing.
WALSH: Dr. Drew, Samantha did one other thing for us, too. She took us out of that crazy place that Jodi put us in where we think, could he be a pedophile? He`s really sexually kinky -- all of a sudden, we were reminded he was a brother. He was somebody`s son. He was the beacon of light in a family.
PINSKY: You know what else? She was probably the glue for that family. And I feel, Cheryl, to use the term that you accused me and Mark of a couple days ago was splitting, which we were both getting into, she`s the glue -- she`s the glue that brings that split back together, doesn`t she?
ARUTT: She does and she attributed that to her brother.
PINSKY: Well, Robi, what`s that?
LUDWIG: I was just going to say that I think also Samantha looks a lot like Travis.
LUDWIG: So when I think, when I hear her talk, I see, we see that familial connection in a visual way, too. So we not only see her powerful emotion, but we see the visual connection to her brother as well.
PINSKY: That`s very interesting, guys.
HUTT: And also, Dr. Drew, you just said she`s the glue or she`s the glue there.
See, that`s what she says about Travis.
PINSKY: Yes. I know and I think she has adopted that role. I think she has stepped into that role now which makes it even more powerful because she really represents him for that family and for you all of us.
More with the bureau behavior, next up.
And later, would Travis want Jodi to die? We have a close friend who`s going to comment on that and more, after this.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt.
Now, jurors were given, Jenny, two sharply contrasting lists. One sheet of Jodi`s so-called mitigating factors.
HUTT: I`m in.
PINSKY: And then a truckload of Travis` attributes. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NURMI: Now, listed before you are eight mitigating factors. The defendant was 27 at the time of the offense. And she had no prior criminal history.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Volunteering to help the homeless by driving around in his Toyota Prius.
NURMI: She was a good friend.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He genuinely cared about making those and him feel good.
NURMI: Trying to make the best of her life, trying to improve her life in her work as an artist.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was so excited to let me read the intro to the book he was writing, a motivational book.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with the behavior bureau. Jenny, were you reacting to that list?
HUTT: Yes. I mean, come on. There are no mitigating factors, it seems, with when it comes to Jodi.
PINSKY: Well, Jenny, welcome to your intervention. I put this behavior bureau together tonight to talk to you about something you said last night that I know you`ve been taking endless abuse about on Twitter.
So, let`s get that record straight right now.
HUTT: OK. First of all --
PINSKY: Jenny said, let me get straight what she said. She said, I love Jodi, and I hate Travis --
HUTT: What? Hold on. No. Never.
By the way, that`s what Twitter is saying. What I said was I wasn`t sure I wanted her to die.
Please understand, I think she`s horrendous and vile. And should she be put to death, it will be just. I`m just weird and ooky about the death penalty. And the idea of like, ding dong, the witch is dead, rejoicing, when somebody dies, just seem barbaric and icky.
Does she, if anybody deserves to die? Sure, she`s a horror and disgusting. But beyond that, I wasn`t saying I`m sorry for Jodi. I`m not sorry for Jodi. She`s a monster.
PINSKY: OK. Let`s get the behavior bureau in on this because this is what this whole trial has done to people. It`s made them lose their minds a little bit.
So poor Jenny says I`m not sure I`m clear about the death penalty, but if anybody deserves it she does. But I hate to see human suffer. And she does seem to be suffering a little bit.
Let`s start with Wendy and go right across the panel. Wendy, what`s going on here?
WALSH: Well, I think this trial has made many, many Americans start to reassess or assess for the first time their belief in the death penalty or not. I personally went and read a lot of literature on it because I really wanted to be sure where I stood, because I`ve always been anti-death penalty. And then I met Jodi. So all of a sudden I had to really evaluate.
But, you know, the data is very clear, that in death penalty states where it`s supposed to be a deterrent, there are far more murders. As far as the money saving argument, it actually costs more money to put someone to death.
And finally, here we are in a society that`s supposed to be teaching love and ethics and compassion, and we`re doing essentially revenge killing ourselves. So revenge isn`t an emotion but I will allow myself to feel.
PINSKY: And, Robi, I`m no expert in justice, but this whole situation of people not being able to -- they see -- I mean, they really want the person taken down, and the person becomes not human to them. And poor Jenny becomes not human just because she says she`s uncomfortable.
LUDWIG: Right. And I`ve gotten that Twitter backlash as well.
Listen, you know, people feel very angry with Jodi. They feel for Travis, and so they want to punish Jodi. That is very human. We like the idea of revenge.
And I think everybody feels that Jodi deserves to be punished for her crime. And ultimately, we need to respect what the jury decides, because that is what is most important. The jury was in there during the trial. They are death penalty qualified to make that decision.
And I, for one, will respect whatever decision they decide to make.
PINSKY: Janine, you wanted to ring in here on this.
DRIVER: I did want to ring in, because when she was found guilty of premeditated murder, I came home and talked to my husband about it and my little kids hear everything. And my 7-year-old Angus must have heard me talking to my husband. And he said, mom, did that murder girl with the dark hair finally run out of tricks?
And I put that on Facebook. You know, did this girl run out of tricks? And a grandmother wrote, she said her five year old grandson said, grand mom, let`s lock that woman in a jail cell with a bear and let`s see who wins.
And I like the way the kids are thinking. I am for the death penalty with Jodi Arias.
PINSKY: Cheryl, you`re shaking your head.
ARUTT: You know what? You know what? I just -- call me crazy, but I just don`t think that we teach people that killing is wrong by killing people. I just don`t believe that.
And the idea, this is very polarizing and people have very strong feeling. I`m braised OIK on Twitter for people to give me the hate tweets, but this does not mean that what I think Jodi did was OK. I think she needs to be taken out of society for the rest of her life.
And I will respect what the jury does. But these are our options that we either want her dead or we think she`s awesome --
PINSKY: I still think what the family wants has to be highly representative. And having talked with juror number eight, I think that`s what`s going to go down with this jury. I think if the family wants a certain outcome, they made it kind of clear today, Jenny, don`t you agree?
ARUTT: But people overestimate how good they`re going to feel if the death penalty happens when a perpetrator has been put to death. People don`t feel that great weight lifted that they think they will usually. I want that for them, but it doesn`t really happen usually.
WALSH: Dr. Drew --
WALSH: We are supposed to be taking the high road here. We`re supposed to be the good people. As we sit here on television, sort of somewhat moralizing up on our high horse (ph), having all these opinions, people here are actually talking how we should become murderers? It doesn`t make sense.
PINSKY: That`s a topic bigger than me. I try to look at what`s healthy and what`s not healthy. That`s sort of where I keep my conversation. And the death penalty is a bigger problem than myself. But I think it`s going to happen in this case, based on what --
WALSH: I do, too.
PINSKY: Yes. Based on what the -- what the family said today, based on how I responded to the family. I can imagine the jury`s going to be responding in a similar way. You all responded to them.
WALSH: And I don`t think we`ll be a better country. I don`t think we`ll be a better people.
PINSKY: That`s a different network and a different conversation. But I was interested on Twitter, by the way, during the break. I was seeing that there were a lot of women interestingly having the same response to Steven where they wanted to hold them and protect them and make things good for him. I think these people have mobilized in all of us an intense desire to make this right for them. And I think that`s what the jury is going through now.
So, as this thing moves along, we`re going to see some pretty intense consequences. Next up, Travis` close friend is here to discuss the impact of the family`s statement. Thank you to the behavior bureau.
And later, my jury on why court was cut short today and what they observed?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The nature of my brother`s murder has had a major impact on me. It`s even invaded my dreams. I have nightmares about somebody coming at me with a knife and then going after my wife and my daughter. When I wake up, I cannot establish what is real, what is a dream. I`ve even gone through the house, searching through rooms, shaking my family to wake them up to make sure that they are alive.
My wife has woken me up out of nightmares because I was screaming in my sleep. It may sound childish, but I cannot sleep alone in the dark any more. I`ve had dreams of my brother all curled up in the shower, thrown in there, left to rot for days.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. And Jenny, the one thing, one of the many things I react to when I hear poor Steven`s testimony is the transgenerational nature of trauma. Jodi Arias not just took the life of one family member of one generation.
We have now a family that fell apart and then a little girl whose father is traumatized and his trauma and nightmares and the disruption of his relationship of his wife is affecting the little girl. This will go on for a couple of generations. Think about that.
HUTT: So, what do they do? What do they do?
PINSKY: Well, I hope, they -- he`s obviously getting help. He has posttraumatic stress disorder probably. Again, I don`t know him, but he`s describing those kinds of symptoms. Forget what you heard about Jodi with PTSD. Steven has PTSD, and he needs help. And he says he`s taking medicine. He`s getting help. And thankfully, it sounds like and this is the thing that I feel had sort of greatest sense of gratitude for today.
It sounds like his wife is hanging in. She needs to really hang with poor Steven to, you know, let him get work his way through this. Let`s get our panel in here, Jenny. Attorney Lisa Bloom, Avo,com, Mark Eiglarsh, speaktomark.com, psychotherapist, Robi Ludwig, all still with us.
And joining us now is Michael Hughes. He was a good friend of Travis`. He knew Jodi, knows Jodi. And Michael, you have the eerie distinction of having once invited Jodi Arias to come live with you. Do you get -- do you just -- do you creep out when you think about that?
MICHAEL HUGHES, ONCE INVITED JODI TO LIVE WITH FAMILY: Yes. No. Yes, totally. I`ve got to clarify something though, because on my Twitter account, I got a little bit hammered when that got out. Let me clarify real quick.
When I invited her to move into our basement apartment, I didn`t know about all the psychopathic, you know, rabid boiler behavior that my brother, Chris, and Sky had witnessed in their home. So for me, that`s -- I didn`t have that experience, you know? She does very well at --
HUGHES: Best foot forward and making -- yes. Manipulating situation. This is two months before the murder. So, I was just simply saying, hey, listen. You know, she was confused. She didn`t know what she was going to do. They were breaking up. Maybe I`ll move back home. So -- but yes, you know, that definitely creeps me out to think about that. But you know, that`s nothing compared to what the Alexander Family are going through.
PINSKY: That`s right.
HUGHES: You know, they have been tormented. And it`s terrible.
PINSKY: Do you have any contact with them? Can you tell us how they`re feeling now? How things are going for them?
HUGHES: I haven`t had contact since the verdict. But, you know, here, I can`t imagine what they`re going to do during the mitigation phase, you know? They did an absolute beautiful job today in what they relayed to the juries. And I love it for the first time the jurors got to hear the truth about the character and the quality of person that Travis Alexander was.
I was so happy about that. And, you know, I don`t think that -- I can`t imagine what the defense side is going to say in their mitigation phase.
HUGHES: I mean -- oh, she`s a great artist, you know? You should see how well that she can take a pencil and copy a photograph.
PINSKY: She worked out (ph) on that murderous rage.
HUGHES: Yes. I want -- I know --
PINSKY: I`m sorry. Again, we have this delay thing. We were all seem to be stepping on each other. I apologize for that, but I have a panel. I want to bring the panel in to ask you questions, and I know, Mark, you probably feel very much the way my guest does. Do you have a question for him?
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: Well, I just, first of all, want you to know that I didn`t know Travis before this thing started. And I thought that after the verdict, at that point, I kind of had a sense following this whole trial that I kind of knew who Travis was and the sense of loss, but I learned today that I didn`t. I didn`t realize the impact, not only to the family -- that was unbelievable -- but I`m thinking bigger.
This is a guy who I learned was dedicated to community service, to helping others, who understood that to live a happy, joyous, and free life, that it`s all about serving others. So, the impact is enormous. It goes way beyond this family. Not much of a question, but it`s just a statement.
PINSKY: Yes. I think you`re right. Lisa, you have a question for Mr. Hughes.
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: Wow. So, Michael, you knew Jodi Arias before all of this, and I`m fascinated that you asked her to move in with you. What was it about her? Was it that you were just taking pity on her or were you attracted to her? What was going on there?
PINSKY: Or she was just so manipulative that you were just sort of, you know, trying to help somebody and there you go?
HUGHES: Listen. Listen, she`s sitting there talking about this pity party she has about what she`s going to do. And she`s so sad about this, you know, Travis breaking up with her. And let me clarify. She`s not moving in with me. It is a clearly separate place. I`ve got five little girls. They`re beautiful as can be. It`s scary enough raising those beautiful little girls, but bringing in somebody now knowing what she`s done, freaks me out.
PINSKY: Must give you absolutely chills. Robi, you have a question? Robi first.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSY.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes. Yes. Michael, why do you think Jodi killed Travis? You must have some inside information --
HUGHES: Listen, I think that she did it because she wanted to make sure that nobody else could have Travis. You know, when she -- you know, there`s a lot I could say about that, but you know, I think it really just comes down to she wanted Travis, and Travis didn`t want her. And that`s what it came down to. She made a last ditch effort to try to rebuild that relationship.
PINSKY: And I think the jury kind of saw it that way, again, based on what I heard from juror number eight yesterday. Jenny, your question.
HUTT: Yes. I just wanted to first say that you shouldn`t feel bad about the fact that you asked her to move in with you. You got bamboozled like everybody else has been bamboozled by this Jodi except for --
PINSKY: Even Jenny who loves Jodi and hates Travis.
HUTT: Except for this jury who it took a brutal murder being shown to them the details, the evidence day to day for them to not be bamboozled. So, you`re in good company, my friend. And I`m just so sorry for what you went through.
PINSKY: Of course. I mean, people like this are very, very dangerous. That`s why we take them out. Go ahead, Michael.
HUGHES: Yes, I was just going to say, Chris and Sky gave me an earful, because they knew way more than I did. They saw this toxic relationship evolve right in front of their eyes. So, I didn`t have that experience.
PINSKY: Yes. But listen, I appreciate you coming here. I appreciate you giving us a sense of what this was like insight, and it`s interesting just to imagine Jodi navigating through Travis and all his friends. And you know, we`ve talked to Abe, we talk to Michael, and we hear how, first of all, how she had her way with everybody and manipulating everybody, and how angry everyone is now. Everyone is angry and feels lucky. Go ahead, Michael, finish this up.
HUGHES: I`ll just tell you just real quick. I don`t know what they`re going to say about her. You know, tomorrow or Monday, whenever they start talking about this mitigation phase. She`s a great artist. She can copy somebody else`s photos, but the thing is is that, you know, she may be really -- you know, they may talk about how good she is with a pencil and how good she is with a knife and what she can do with that.
I don`t know what they`re going to say or what can you possibly say about this girl? You know, I think -- the family doesn`t want to hear anything from her. And she probably will speak any way. I think the only thing the family wants to hear from Jodi is ouch, that needle really hurts.
PINSKY: There you go, guys. I got to go to break. Thank you, Michael. Thank you to the panel. Next up, my jury was inside the courtroom today. We`re going to hear their theory on why court was cut short today. Back in a moment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our childhood made us strong and able to conquer anything. This was the last time I saw Travis. He talked me into taking this picture, even though I was in PJs. It makes me cry every time I look at it. I`m so glad he talked me into taking this picture. I will cherish it for the rest of my life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It`s time for Dr. Drew`s jurors. I just get a pain in my chest, a sadness when I see, Jenny, when I see Samantha talk. It`s just --
PINSKY: For me, she has been the -- again, the emotional story of this trial. I look to her and her feelings to tell me where this story is going. And today, it was just overwhelming. I also want to read some Twitter stuff @cu928 (ph) "@Dr. Drew, missing the point, death penalty because she will," meaning Jodi, "will kill again in the general population in prison."
So, people seem to think that if Jodi goes to the general population, she will become a killer in the prison population. I think we`re going to do a behavior bureau on this, because --
HUTT: First of all -- yes.
PINSKY: They`re different kind of killer, Jodi is. I don`t think she`s, you know, going to join a gang and start shaking down the general population. I don`t see that happening.
HUTT: No. But I do -- I understand why people are concerned about her being in the general jail population. Because she`s such a weasel, she`ll make friends.
PINSKY: She will have a good life.
HUTT: People will feel bad for her, and they`ll be nice to her.
PINSKY: She`ll manipulate, she`ll create chaos, but she may have a life that we just don`t want her to have given what she has done. Joining me now from my jury is Katie Wick and Stacey Fairrington. Stacy, you have a theory about why court was postponed today. What do you got?
STACEY FAIRRINGTON, DR. DREW "JUROR": Oh, my theory, well, I probably could come up with a whole bunch of theories and they`d probably all be right. You know, we were sitting in there and there was a lot of commotion going on. We saw the two people that we think are going to, I guess, be witnesses for Jodi, Daryl Brewer (ph) and then her friend, Patty. And they kind of kept going in and out.
And we sat there, and then, finally, you know, they came and said that, you know, court was going to be cancelled. So, I can only imagine that it has to do something with, perhaps, Jodi and her witnesses, with their statements maybe, there was something going on with that.
PINSKY: Katie, describe the jury`s reaction to the statements today. You were looking at the jury while the family was talking. What did the jurors look like?
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": They -- I had a side shot of them, a couple of them had their head down, but it was when they left, Dr. Drew. I was literally about six feet away from them. And I saw about four or five of them walk out, and they looked like they were going to lose it. Their emotions were right here, one specifically, a gal, went like this. And, you could tell that they were extremely moved. How could one be human and have a heart and not be moved by what Samantha and Steven said today.
I just -- it was a rough day, and something that really touched me was you mentioned earlier, Dr. Drew, about the generations that this is going to affect. And from the very beginning of this, I always said to some people. I said, it`s amazing how one person can cause so much pain for so many. And as I sat there and I was sobbing my eyes out, and you can`t be audible when you do it. It`s really rough.
I looked at every single person in that room, and I thought, look over it Jodi, and I had this moment, I`m going to admit, I had a lot of hate for her, I do, and I thought, you hurt so many people in this room. And, you`re so right, Dr. Drew. The people that it`s going to affect forever.
PINSKY: And, and, no contrition, no real remorse. It`s so hard to watch that. That`s why everyone is exercised by this case.
Next up, more from inside the courtroom and some of your calls. Back after this.
PINSKY: Back with our jury and my co-host, Jenny Hutt, and we`re going to try to get some of your calls right now. Let`s go out to John in West Virginia -- John.
JOHN, WEST VIRGINIA: Hey, Dr. Drew.
JOHN: Today was the first time that I`ve seen any honest emotion in Jodi`s demeanor. Sadly enough, I still believe that emotion is only for Jodi.
PINSKY: Yes. That`s what we were all kind of thinking. I do think she was feeling bad for the family. But early in our behavior bureau, we were saying --
HUTT: No way.
PINSKY: Well, a little bit. She`s not inhuman. We`d like to make her that way. Again, I`m not defending her. I`m not saying she shouldn`t get the death penalty. I`m just saying there must be some human emotions in her. You can`t -- Stacey, you said a few minutes ago, how could anybody listen to what that family was saying and not have a reaction?
FAIRRINGTON: You couldn`t. I mean, I don`t think it`s human to not be able to feel that. However, I do feel like in this case, I think she has some thoughts of thinking I got put here. I think she`s still blaming everybody, including the Alexanders for why she --
PINSKY: And she`s crying about the fact that she doesn`t have somebody that loves her as much as that family. I agree. That`s all there. Don`t get me wrong. I`m with you guys.
HUTT: Dr. Drew, I have a question.
PINSKY: Jenny, quick. Yes.
HUTT: Dr. Drew, don`t you think if she really felt bad that she`d say she was sorry?
PINSKY: Yes. It will be so interesting to see if she can muster something like sorrow. I don`t think so, though. I don`t think she has that. Cassie in Texas, what do you got?
CASSIE, TEXAS: Hi. I was on a jury and we did give the person a death penalty, and that was 18 years ago, and I`ve never regretted it.
PINSKY: There you go. Was it tough?
CASSIE: No, it really was not when you consider what they did.
PINSKY: Interesting. Who was going to comment there, Stacey or Katie? Katie.
WICK: Dr. Drew, I was just going to say that I have no doubt in my mind as Jodi would say, mark my words, I really believe that this jury is going to give her the death penalty. I never would have said this a week ago. If I`m wrong, then I`m wrong, but right now, they look so together.
PINSKY: I think you`re right. Again, now having spoken to juror number eight, I`m sort of feeling that same way as well. Thank you, ladies. And last call is next. Stay with us.
PINSKY: Time for the last call. Jenny, I want to let you be the last call here. We`ve got about half a minute here to set the record straight again. I know, I`ve been making funny a little bit tonight, but obviously, there`s a huge difference between saying I don`t like to see humans suffer and I`m not unhappy that justice is being done.
HUTT: Correct. And I watched the tape back last night to see what I said after the backlash on Twitter. And really what I said was I just don`t know that I wanted to see her die, like, it`s about death penalty. I`m conflicted.
PINSKY: You`re uncomfortable.
HUTT: I hate her. Yes. I don`t like -- she`s a monster.
PINSKY: Got it. We`ll have to get back to it tomorrow night. Thank you, Jenny. Thanks for watching. See you next time. I`ll see you guys at "HLN After Dark" because it begins right now.