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Penalty Phase: Jodi Arias on Trial

Aired May 17, 2013 - 21:00   ET



NARRATOR: Tonight, Jodi Arias for dummies. How did we get here? And what happens next?

We`ll clear away the fog.

Plus, more of our exclusive, never before seen video, inside Travis Alexander`s memorial service.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know that I will see Travis one day.

NARRATOR: And the mystery surrounding the shooting death of a Florida man.

CARYN KELLEY: And it went off. I`m like, oh, my God, I didn`t ever mean to do that.

NARRATOR: Is his girlfriend the new Jodi Arias?

DR. DREW ON CALL starts now.


DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Good evening.

My co-host this evening, Sirius XM radio host, Jenny Hutt.

Now, lots of stuff tonight. Got a bunch to get through, a witness in the trial speaks out more on juror number eight. And some never before seen photos that were not used in court for the family testimonial, but one particularly apparently was designed to be there in the courtroom, and you will see it here.

But first, get ready for the Jodi Arias show act two. Take a look at this.


JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: To use your standard, ma`am, of how you stopped because it stung, can you imagine how much it must have hurt Mr. Alexander when you stuck that knife right into his chest? That really must have hurt, right?

KIRK NURMI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Argumentative and Ms. Arias will have the opportunity to talk to you in a different way. Not about what happened, but about who he is.

MARTINEZ: There`s no connection, if you will, between her age and the fact that she took a knife and stuck into Mr. Alexander`s chest.

The same can be said for her being a good friend. A good friend to whom? And how is that important to what happened on June 4th of 2008?

She talks about suffering abuse and neglect as a child and as an adult. Again, where`s the connection?

You`ve also been told on the witness stand that she`s a photographer. Yes, I guess in a way she is a talented artist because she can take photographs of Mr. Alexander in the shower that look like a Calvin Klein commercial. That she`s so talented that she can take that camera and delete the images, that negative --


MARTINEZ: To indicate to you that the defendant has no criminal history. Really? Did you -- were you present when she was testifying? Do you remember her testifying? Do you remember her testimony that she was untruthful to you? That she took an oath to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

When somebody takes the stand and they are not being truthful, that is a crime.


PINSKY: Well, Juan Martinez gives us a lot, Jenny, to think about in that clip. But people I think still have questions about how this thing is working and what Arizona does, and why there`s these trials and it gets confusing, right? So -- go ahead, Jenny.

JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Yes. I mean, what`s confusing to me is why Jodi might be speaking on Monday, because what`s she going to say? Like that`s -- when they say like she`s not going to say what happened, Dr. Drew. It`s not what happened. It`s what she did.

PINSKY: And right, is he going to be a witness for her mitigation or give a testimonial? It`s all -- we`ve got a lot of question. So we`ve come up with a segment called Jodi Arias for dummies.

That`s going to be --


PINSKY: So, you and I, Jenny, can understand this and hopefully anybody else who has questions.

First, HLN legal correspondent Beth Karas.

HUTT: Are you just calling me a dummy?

PINSKY: I`m calling us a dummy, be fair.

Beth, our HLN camera crews got exclusive video of Jodi`s lawyer, Kirk Nurmi, today. What was going on there?

BETH KARAS, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, he visited Jodi. Clearly, he was there for about an hour. We don`t know obviously what was said. Those are privileged communications.

But Fridays are visiting days for lawyers only. Just legal visits. No family and friends. Every other day of the week, family and friends. Saturday through Thursday, can`t visit from 8:00 in the morning to 8:00 at night. But Fridays are for lawyers.

So maybe he was talking strategy with her. Who knows? Maybe he wanted to say something to her that couldn`t be told to her on the phone. He just needed a private conversation.

PINSKY: Jenny, go ahead.

HUTT: It`s weird that he`s not in a suit. He looks like just a guy.

PINSKY: Hold on a second. You mean, Mark Nurmi`s a human being? Shocking. News at 10:00.

Hang on now. We`re going to be joined by now, Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at, attorney Darren Kavinoky, host of "Deadly Sins" on Investigation Discovery, and clinical psychologist Cheryl Arutt.

So, Beth, I`m going to stay with you for a second. Our for dummies question number one is, what are we likely to get from Jodi next week, and how does that fit into this whole Arizona legal structure?

KARAS: Well, she would probably be the last person to address the jury before closing arguments and they wrap it up and start deliberating. Now, she can testify or she can make a statement. Probably, if she wants to, she`ll opt to make a statement where she`ll stand before the jury the way Travis Alexander`s siblings stood yesterday and simply address them. Maybe, she`ll express remorse for killing Travis Alexander, something she hasn`t done before.

Maybe she`ll just talk about how she can continue to make a contribution to society even if she just shares her experience with others who are getting jammed up in the law, or juvenile, so they don`t take a wrong turn in their lives and end up in prison for life.

Or maybe the wildcard, will she get up there and say, I don`t want to live in a box for the rest of my life. I`d rather die. That`s what show said to the reporter right after her verdict. Maybe she`ll say it to the jury, but I doubt it.

PINSKY: Beth, that one got caught in my clue a little bit.

Mark, Jodi Arias advising other people how to live a better life, can you imagine?

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Really, is that like Hitler telling people how to be tolerant?

HUTT: Mark!


PINSKY: Cheryl, when Jodi gets up there what would you tell her.

CHERYL ARUTT, PSYCHOLOGIST: I think that this entire thing is going to turn on whether she`s able to take responsibility. I think this whole thing hangs on whether she`s able to say I did this. I am sorry for what I did. Not what happened, not the fun went off, not that I was a victim, but to be able to really own it and claim it and be humble.

And if she can`t do that, she`s in big trouble.

PINSKY: Darren, you can -- go ahead.

HUTT: I was going to say, if I were a betting woman -- and I`m not -- I would bet that she`s not going to do that. There`s no way she`s going to do a 180 and all of a sudden, be contrite and admit all her wrongdoings and act like a reasonable individual. She doesn`t have that in her.

ARUTT: Jenny, I agree. I don`t think she`ll do it either.

PINSKY: And, Jenny --

DARREN KAVINOKY, ATTORNEY: It would actually create a lot of appellate problems for her if she did. I mean, she`s really on the horns of a dilemma where the only way she could gain some credulity and possibly have her life spared is to be authentic and truthful and really own it. And, of course, that would take the wind out of the sails of whatever appellate issues may live on in that transcript.

PINSKY: And, Jenny, still reacting to you not being the betting type. This evening, you seem to be doing your best version of the little mermaid. I just imagine you at a craps table. I don`t think it would work. It doesn`t work for me.

You`re right. I don`t see that.

Mark, another for dummies question. We`ve been at so many stages of mini trials and so many verdicts. How does that all work?

EIGLARSH: Well, it`s called due process. And it`s guaranteed in the Constitution.

The Supreme Court has said very specifically on these death eligible cases that death is different, which means just because someone`s convicted of first degree murder, they don`t necessarily get death. It`s reserved for the worst of the worse.

And so, there are processes in place to make sure that due process takes place. Now, I know a lot of people would like to go out and take her out back and hanger like the, quote, "good old days."

But let me just tell you this -- the worst thing that can happen would be, if we have to try this thing again so this judge has to take her time, dot every I, cross every T, so it doesn`t come back on reversal.

PINSKY: There you go.

Next up, more from juror number eight. Was he fairly judged by you all? And my behavior bureau renders their verdict.

And later, exclusive video of Travis Alexander`s memorial service that you have not yet seen and will not see anywhere else when we come back.



DAN GIBB, JUROR #8 (via telephone): She spent too much time on the stand. And probably the defense` strategy was for us to get to know Jodi personally, and in order to be that much difficult to find her guilty and to potentially put her to death.

But I think it lost some of its effect over time. So I do think she spent too much time up on the stand. And as time went on, you know, it became apparent that more and more of what she was saying was just, was just too far out there, was just too unbelievable.

I tried my best to keep an open mind as long as I could. And I feel that I did that.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt.

Jenny, I feel as though juror number eight as we`ll refer to him, was a very conscientious juror. Do you agree?

HUTT: A hundred percent. And I thought he was quite conscientious when he spoke to us. He was fair. He was balanced. I believed him.

PINSKY: And yet you and I both got a bunch of Twitter nonsense, people angry at him. We`re not sure why he was kicked off of the court. He had some legal problems himself.

I`m going to ask the question of our behavior bureau and for our legal experts. Are juries only for angels? Only for people that never have in their lives anywhere?

HUTT: Well, Dr. Drew, that`s what I found most remarkable in terms of this case and certainly with juror number eight. Everyone is so quick to judge another person`s behavior. I understand what people are saying, but what they`re saying happened and I`m not none of it, though could have had bad consequences, it didn`t have bad consequences.

And frankly, we`re a society of sanctimonious freaks. And everything is doing something different behind closed doors. But the minute someone is outed for some type of behavior, some of the time, they are crucified and I`m tired of it. I think it`s gross.

PINSKY: You`ve been in the crosshairs in recent years.

So, joining us today on the behavior bureau, clinical psychologist Cheryl Arutt, psychotherapist Robi Ludwig, author of "Till Death Do Us Part", and psychologist Wendy Walsh, author of "The 30-Day Love Detox."

Let me ask you, Cheryl, first. Do certain types of people make better jurors?

ARUTT: Well, Dr. Drew, it`s supposed to be a jury of our peers. So, who are our peers, really? And if we`re imperfect, so are they.

But I think that jurors are people who are able to really listen and keep an open mind and hear both sides and are detail oriented to show up and pay attention and not sleep and do other things as sometimes has happened. It`s a hardship. There are many peep listening to this right now can think of times they`ve tried very hard to get out of jury duty.

PINSKY: Hear, hear, hear.

ARUTT: You know? So, let`s own up.


ARUTT: There you go. So, you know, this is a tough thing. And this is traumatic.

These people have been looking at horrific pictures and listening to really painful, awful stuff. And this is traumatic. So I think it`s a tough job.

PINSKY: Wendy, I`m going to give you a chance to react to what juror number eight told us. It sounded to me like he was being very conscientious, very thoughtful, representing the family in terms of their quest for justice.

How did you react to it?

WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, I think he was very conscientious. And he was a human being. And he was kicked off because he was bragging supposedly, to police officers about being on the trial.

Now, the problem with that is you`re supposed to be completely confidential. So that was probably what disturbed the judge.

But I should say it`s hard to keep that in when you`re sitting there looking at all that crime, and drama and tragedy all day long. I do agree with him that she stayed on the stand too long.

You know what`s interesting, Dr. Drew? And I`ve got to ask you about this? I think she`s smart. I think she has good strategy.

Why was nobody advising her to use the strategy of at least pretending remorse?

PINSKY: Yes, that`s a good question. They may have. Remember, this woman`s calling all the shots and seems to be running rogue on her attorneys. I wonder -- go ahead, Jenny. I wonder if she knows what remorse looks leak.

HUTT: Well, A, I don`t think she feels remorseful. And B, what you said, Dr. Drew, is hunch for saying, correct, isn`t it true that Nurmi requested to be removed from the case?

PINSKY: Yes. Robi, if she is -- does have some type of psychopathy, again, not a (INAUDIBLE) ideal ever, frankly.

But what I`m told is, people that specialize in this, they behave in the way that they believe people would want them to behave. And we don`t see her able to muster remorse.

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOLOGIST: Right. It`s a little bit like fake acting. And you can kind of sense it because it`s like bad acting, I should say. But the emotions almost seem shallow, because they don`t have those real emotions to pull on. So they mimic emotion that they think look like the emotions they`re supposed to have.

As far as Jodi is concerned in terms of faking remorse, I think, Jodi -- this is Jodi`s problem. Jodi doesn`t listen to anybody else. And she really is her own adviser, and it creates her own demise.

She doesn`t advise herself well, for whatever reason. She`s very self destructive.

PINSKY: Yes. And, Robi, in that, her point of view begs no alternative, which her view of the world begs no alternative, her view of Travis begs no alternative, her view of how this trial should be conducted begs no alternative.

I asked juror number eight if there was anything he wanted to say to Travis Alexander`s family, take a look.


GIBB: I feel really bad for Travis` family, that the defense dragged him through the mud like they did. I can`t even begin to imagine what they`ve gone through. And, you know, this isn`t by any means going to be the end of this.

This is going to continue for them. And I feel real bad for them. And I feel, I feel like, you know, I kind of let them down.

PINSKY: Dan, maybe you`re triggering my co-dependency, but I have to stop and say, my friend, you did a great service.

HUTT: You did a great job.

PINSKY: You did it very seriously. Speaking to you has been a pleasure. You`ve restored my faith a little bit in the jury system.


PINSKY: A little bit of a bromance with juror number eight, in fact.

But, Wendy, my point was, as I said earlier, is that we all have -- none of us are perfect. And some of those may be more elaborated during a stint on a jury. That doesn`t make somebody incapable of being a good juror.

WALSH: Absolutely, you`re so correct. But you know what we just saw there and what we just heard there? Real remorse, Dr. Drew. He actually had it. That`s what it feels like.

PINSKY: Yes, Robi -- follow up with that, Robi, because I think Wendy`s absolutely right. I mean, that`s what we all responded to was his remorse.

LUDWIG: Right. And I think we also saw him being a self-attacker. This was a person who was very, very hard on himself which may be contributed to some of the problems that he had.

But, you know, I was very impressed with this juror. I thought he was just so thoughtful, so empathic. And it probably was a real loss that he wasn`t there for the time decision, but I was so glad to get some insight from him during our interview. It helped me really respect the whole process that much more.

PINSKY: Robi, me too.

Jenny, do you want to say something?

HUTT: Yes. I just wanted to say that when he was saying about what the defense did to Travis, to try to make Travis out to be some sort of deviant is again the same thing I was talking about earlier, that we`re the society that thinks that he`s the only one doing the things that he was doing? Come on.

PINSKY: Right, right.

HUTT: It`s like yet again, it`s the same sort of sanctimonious ridiculousness.

PINSKY: And, Cheryl, let`s take this home. So, my reaction to him wasn`t just co-dependency? You all felt the same thing?

ARUTT: This was compassion and this was resonating with deep, real human emotion. He felt guilty. He felt responsible, but he cared. It was real.

PINSKY: There you go. Next up, we`ll more from the Behavior Bureau and more on juror number eight as well. And the witness he found as un -- well, unbelievable as maybe Jodi.

And later, the photo that the Alexander family selected for their impact statements but did not get seen in court. You will see it here and only here. We`ll be back after this.



PINSKY: How about the witnesses? Were there any witnesses -- what was your least favorite witness that the defense put on?

GIBB: Well, I wasn`t really impressed with Dr. Samuels. I know the gentleman`s got a lot of years of experience. And all that, but he was just kind of all over the place.

PINSKY: He spent an awful lot of time on the fog and the PTSD, didn`t he?

GIBB: Yes. You know, the PTSD thing I think it seemed like it was -- I don`t know, it seemed like it was just to sidetrack us.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt and our behavior bureau. Not only do jurors have to dissect the facts, they have to know -- they have to assess the professionals that are on the stand.

I have a couple of questions for the behavior bureau. I guess the first one would be, let`s start with you, Cheryl, how do we get lay people to be able to evaluate professional opinions on the stand that are paid? You know what I mean? I as a professional have trouble sometimes sussing out who`s a hired gun and someone`s honest appraisal.

ARUTT: That`s a great question, Dr. Drew. I think it`s really tricky because people who are experts have kind of a specialized knowledge about something. So, if it`s outside of yours, you hope they know what they`re talking about. But I think people are pretty good at sensing when somebody is amping it up to say what they think their side wants to hear and when they can back it up. Like Dr. DeMarte did.

Dr. DeMarte did a really good job of just saying it like it was. And she knew her stuff.

PINSKY: Yes, Robi, just staying with the facts, right?

LUDWIG: Yes. I think sticking with the facts, and also, maybe because I know about post-traumatic stress, but Jodi didn`t have all the symptoms of post-traumatic stress and it seemed like creative writing. So, I imagine when the jury sitting there, if something doesn`t sound right or feel right, they sense it on some level.

And then if they can get the bare fact does compare that gut feeling to, I would imagine that would help them navigate through that process.

PINSKY: Jenny, you want to say something?

HUTT: Well, yes, I was also going to say, isn`t there also sort of that gut feeling, if it seems like the expert has character, seems like he has credibility, someone like LaViolette to me had zero credibility. Whereas someone like DeMarte had total credibility.

PINSKY: Right, she seemed matter of fact while LaViolette seemed too involved and invested in things from a particular perspective, rather than just the facts.

Wendy, go ahead.

WALSH: Yes. I wanted to say, Robi is right. She may not have known enough symptoms of PTSD, but even this idea that she had PTSD might be able to be dismissed by the jurors because they went -- well, of course, she committed a murder. Of cost she has post-traumatic stress disorder. I would too, if I murdered someone.

PINSKY: And, by the way, why would he go with PTSD, which is a real specific category of illness that comes long after a traumatic event and he tries to associate it with an immediate.

Cheryl, are you waving?

ARUTT: I know, I know, but this is why he went with PTSD, because he did the transient global amnesia, she said that Travis intercoursed her brains out. And that didn`t work, and then they had to abandon that.


PINSKY: This is what made me so upset, I`ll tell you, Jenny, I`ll tell you what she`s talking about. What Samuels went for --

HUTT: But that`s why he did it, Dr. Drew. He said PTSD, because people like me know that is. Transient global brain activity, fog, we don`t know what that is.

PINSKY: And believe me, he doesn`t either. He`s never seen it. I guarantee you, that`s a neurological disorder, it`s not a psychological disorder.

Wendy, three of you on the behavior panel, anybody have you ever seen bona fide TGA? No.

That`s right. Because it`s a medical thing.


PINSKY: No, it`s a medical thing. It`s caused by strokes, and medication, and not a psychological problem. He`s never seen it either.

Jenny, I want to make sure you do understand PTSD is, and Travis` brother has PTSD. Him yesterday at the podium, he was expressing the range of symptoms and the time course of post-traumatic stress disorder.

And by the way, people with PTSD often have earlier traumas. Remember, we all know that Travis had rather traumatic childhood, same environment that his brother grew up in. So he really makes sense. You guys agree with me?

The panel, show of hands. Steven has PTSD, yes?

ARUTT: Absolutely, and it`s treatable.

PINKSY: Yes, it`s treatable. That`s right.

Now, I believe attorney Mark Eiglarsh had a question for juror number eight about keeping away from media. Take a look at this.


EIGLARSH: How when people are watching media reports did they not say things to you. How were you not influenced?

GIBB: Well, I mean people would approach me, for instance a couple of occasions at work. And I would just tell them, hey, I`m not allowed to talk about it. I can`t talk about it. If something did come on TV, I would turn the channel, walk out of the room.

PINSKY: I`m proud that we have a system where somebody like Dan can represent --


PINSKY: Robi, do you think someone can really avoid all the public consternation and media and discussion about a case like this?

LUDWIG: I think it`s really hard. Someone can try and make a real effort to not let outside information influence them in any, you know, unfair way. But I think it`s very difficult. But if somebody is really trying to be fair -- and I think if jurors really want to do a good job and be conscientious about it, then they will make every effort to just consider the information that is being presented in the courtroom.

PINSKY: And I think, again, the way I experience him, I believe him when he says he did that. But I don`t know that all jurors were like juror number eight. And he`s the one we lost from the jury.

HUTT: Exactly. I don`t know that I could have done that. It also depends on your support system.

But I sort of liken it if you`re on a diet, you`re not supposed to have French fries. But if you have French fries put in front in that time, Dr. Drew, I`m going to eat them.

PINSKY: Wendy, you`re nodding your head, yes?

WALSH: Yes. I think, especially in today`s media age where so many families have media on in every room, whether it`s radio, television, Internet, iPodcasts, et cetera, it`s really hard to be media free. And pretty much Jodi Arias has been the darling story on every media outlet for the past 10 weeks.

PINSKY: You know, maybe we ought to do a behavior bureau on our relation to Jodi. You know what I mean? How we all -- why we all go to her, why there`s such mob, mentally around her? Why when Jenny, Jenny made some gentle comment about feeling compassionate for human suffering named Jodi Arias, even though she thought she was getting what she deserved, Jenny gets attacked with the pitchforks and the mob.

It`s very interesting. We may do it on future behavior bureau.

Thank you, guys, tonight.

If you have a questions for the bureau behavior, you also can tweet me @DrDrewHLN #behaviorbureau and maybe your questions will get right in here, like some of the questions I`ll have.

Next up, she was a trial witness, one of Travis` closest friends, Sky Hughes back with us again and exclusively tonight.

And later, a dead boyfriend, a beautiful blonde woman, conflicting stories, a gun, they reached for the gun, is it the new Jodi Arias?

Back in a moment.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have big shoes to fill. My brother was a fabulous speaker, and I`m not. Anyways, as I stand here, I`m wondering what you guys are all thinking about when you`re looking at me. And you`re probably thinking that I look a lot like Travis. I get -- I got this a lot, like, throughout my life. People would just come up to me, just, I was like anywhere, like at the mall or wherever. Doesn`t matter.

And people would come up to me, like, you`re Travis Alexander`s sister, huh? And I`m like yes. So, as I thought about that, I was like, is this a compliment or not? You know? I`m like, do I look like a man? I hope not. I like to think that since Travis was such a stud as a guy, that means that I must be a hottie as a girl. I don`t know. That`s what I hope to think.


PINSKY: That is Travis` sister at his memorial service. Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Still with us, Mark Eiglarsh and Robi Ludwig. And again, that was exclusive video of Hillary Wilcock`s (ph), Travis Alexander`s sister speaking at the memorial service in Mesa, Arizona a few days after he was murdered.

Joining us now is a friend, Skye Hughes, who herself was a very close friend of Travis Alexander and the Alexander Family. Sky, while you today, to me, look a little more relieved and at ease as this thing sort of winds down, the family seemed as raw today as they did in that video from the memorial service five years ago. How are they doing?

SKY HUGHES, CLOSE FRIEND OF TRAVIS ALEXANDER: You know, it`s tough, Dr. Drew, because they are very raw, because, you know, Jodi hasn`t quit. She hasn`t let up. She`s continued to slaughter Travis. You know, she`s continued to slaughter his good name and say horrible things about him. So, this is a very hard time for them.

PINSKY: Are they feeling better after having had that opportunity to express themselves to the jury yesterday? You know, the -- everybody that watched that was deeply moved and in different ways. It`s funny. We all had different responses to each of them. I, particularly, Samantha tore my heart out.

Sky, I told my producers yesterday, they had to refer to her as my Samantha from now on, because I felt deep need to want to protect her and this poor woman who`s a law enforcement officer and couldn`t protect her brother. She must have so many mixed feelings.

HUGHES: Oh, she does. You know, It`s been really hard on her. She was really close to Travis. You know, he was the rock of their family. And they always looked to Travis for everything. For advice, for wisdom, for -- you know, when they were upset, that`s who they called. And speaking of Samantha, you know, she`s -- I mean, she is a strong -- she`s an mazing person.

She really is. She -- just while this trial has been going on, I mean, you know their grandma passed away just two weeks before it started. And then, Samantha`s lost three people just since the trial started that were very close to her. She`s lost a woman who was a huge inspiration in her life. She`s lost a best friend to cancer. And then, just yesterday morning, at about 9:30, she lost one of her good friends` sons was killed in an auto accident.

JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: Oh gosh. Oh, God. Too much.

PINSKY: Yes, too much. Too much. Now, I know why it was so --

HUGHES: I don`t know how she does it.

PINSKY: And to me, to my eyes, she has become the glue of that family, too, now. Am I right on that? That`s she --


PINSKY: -- she`s sort of stepped into the void that Travis left behind.

HUGHES: Yes. I mean, she`s been amazing. She`s been incredible through this whole thing. They all have. You know, Tunisha (ph), Hillary, Steven, Greg, Gary, Alley, you know, they just all have just been incredible, you know? They`ve been strong. They`ve been -- they`ve been classy, you know? They`ve just -- they`ve been a great example to all of us. A very -- just watching them is so inspirational.

PINSKY: But it sounds like, particularly, Samantha -- Steven talked about all his symptoms and his PTSD and sounds like he was getting treatment, but Samantha, you guys got to support her. So, you know, let`s all say our prayers for Samantha. She`s the one standing in the middle of all this. Now, one of the photos that was supposed to be shown yesterday during the family`s impact statement was this one, apparently, of Travis` grave site.

We have also received other photos from Travis` friends. Some of those -- there is the grave site, memorial plaque. Sky, what are we looking at here? We`re seeing a picture of him with a caricature. He`s holding -- he looks like a younger kid there. This is him. Quite bit younger now, we`re looking at teens. Can you see those pictures?

HUGHES: I can`t.

PINSKY: OK. We`re looking --


PINSKY: It`s a picture -- it looks like these -- he looks like an almost --

HUTT: He looks like an adorable 16-year-old boy.

PINSKY: Yes, like a teenager. Absolutely. Mark, do you have any questions for Sky? I know she`s somebody you`ve enjoyed talking to. Anything for her?

MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: Yes, no. I love Sky. My concern, Sky, was when I heard the devastation caused by this trial and the whole death of Travis on the family, that it went beyond what I ever thought was imaginable, that their health has been in jeopardy, their mental and physical health.

My concern is whether the family is getting the necessary treatment either through counseling or whatever they need. And if not, I`d like you to pass along to them that myself and I know Dr. Drew would be willing to assist in any way we can.

PINSKY: Oh. Whatever. Whatever we can do to be of help.

HUGHES: Oh, wow. Wow. I`m sure they would appreciate that. You know, I`m not positive, but I don`t think that they have. I think they`ve been consumed by this for the last five years. And I really don`t think that they`ve focused or thought about or done anything for themselves as far as that goes.

PINSKY: And Robi, that`s going to be --

EIGLARSH: Sky, Sky, my --

PINSKY: Go ahead, Mark.

EIGLARSH: My concern is it`s not going to her psychological warfare, her torture doesn`t end whether she`s given life or death. She still has Twitter. She still has media. She still has ways to continue to do what she does to press their buttons.


EIGLARSH: And I`m concerned about the future for them.

PINSKY: Not only that, but Robi, you would agree with me that on the other side of this, once the letdown after the trial, that`s -- people can get a lot of symptoms if they don`t take care of themselves.


PINSKY: And I also said something yesterday, too, which I want to re- emphasize is that this can affect multiple generations. I mean, Steven talked about how his family was -- marriage was affected. His kid was affected. That child may have --

LUDWIG: Absolutely.

PINSKY: This goes for many generations, Robi.

LUDWIG: Yes. Yes, Dr. Drew. I thought that was a really brilliant and insightful point. And there are unique challenges to grieving when you have such a public trial, because this family is not only grieving privately, but then, they also have to answer to people who feel they intimately involved with Travis, that perhaps, you know, don`t know the family and come up and ask questions and offer opinions or every time there`s a news story, all of these feelings can come up for them again.

So, I certainly hope that they`re working with trained professionals that can help prepare them, but the one question that I have is, do you have a sense from the family, Sky, what their position is as far as what they would like to see happen to Jodi? Because I know families feel differently about, you know, death penalty. And I`m just wondering if you have any insight into how Travis` family feels.

HUGHES: Yes. This family is very united on this. All the siblings, all seven of them, their spouses, their aunts, their uncles, everyone wants the death penalty. That`s what they`re looking for.

PINSKY: I think they were pretty clear about that in their testimonials yesterday. Without saying it, I think it came across loud and clear.

HUTT: I have to say something, Dr. Drew, that after the show last night, Janine Driver and I were talking. She`s on the behavior bureau all the time, and what she said to was really, really interesting. And I hadn`t thought about this, that the thing about the death penalty is it will stop Jodi when it happens, from doing things like tweeting or continuing the psychological warfare. This family won`t get a night`s sleep probably until she`s gone. That kind of thing.

PINSKY: It puts a stop to any further conversation, that`s for sure. Sky, thanks so much for joining us. And please, send from all of us the best back to the family t and please be sure they`re taking care of themselves, OK?

HUGHES: I will.

PINSKY: Next up, we are switching gears --

HUGHES: Thank you for your support.

PINSKY: You bet. The mystery surrounding the shooting death of a Florida man. Is this woman a new Jodi Arias? We`ll investigate after this.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my god. The gun went off! My boyfriend just died! He needs an ambulance, 911. "Philip, you know I have a weapon." Don`t do this. I was like, "hey, don`t come here with me." And he was like, "don`t, you`re not. He put it to his head, "you`re going to shoot me. Going to shoot me?" And it went off. I`m like, "oh, my God. I didn`t ever mean to do that."


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. This woman, Caryn Kelly is accused of killing her boyfriend. And just like Jodi Arias, she has told several different stories of what happened that night. Is she a liar like Jodi? Is she a killer like Jodi? Or was this just some sort of horrible accident? Jury selection -- well, we`ll see. Jury selection for this trial has started. The trial actually starts, itself, on Monday, but I want you guys to listen to this 911 call before we begin our conversation.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Exactly what happened?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just get somebody here quick! He was shot in the head with a gun!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Listen to me. Did he shoot himself? Yes or no?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, no. It was like --


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was an accident. It was an accident.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you have the gun?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did, but it was an accident.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. I understand it`s an accident. Where`s the gun now?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the floor, in my bedroom. Come on, baby! Come on, baby! Stay with me. Come on, honey. Oh, my God! He put a gun to his head. Just let me do it. He was joking, but boom, it went off.


PINSKY: Back with us to discuss, Mark Eiglarsh and Robi Ludwig. Joining us now is Darren Kavinoky, attorney and host of "Deadly Sins" in Investigation Discovery and Steve Kardian former New York City police detective. Mark, what do you think? Is this another Jodi Arias?

EIGLARSH: Well, there`s a lot of similarities, many differences. The first difference, first of all, is she has a terrific attorney, Diana Tennis was on your show the other night. Great lawyer. But, she doesn`t make the facts. And the facts come to her where her client is blitzed. I mean, you watch the video, you listen to the 911 call. She`s wasted.

She`s the last one who we can rely upon to deliver credible facts about what happened that night. I think this comes down to the forensics. If the forensics don`t match whatever final story she says, she`s got a problem.

PINSKY: Well, I`m glad you brought up forensics, because I have Steve Kardian to let us hear some thoughts on the forensics in this case and your gut, too, Steve. What does your gut tell you?

STEVE KARDIAN, FORMER POLICE DETECTIVE: Well, Dr. Drew, we have to look at a couple things. That loud pitched scream that we hear on the 911 tape, it`s called a hot spot by deception experts. And as a result, there`s a high incidence that during that time when they have that high- pitched sound, it is an indication of deception. Now, during the interview, where the police officer was taping her on the cell phone, we see no emotion.

We see no act of empathy, of guilt. And we see that, really, with high degrees of intoxication. It amplifies that. So, those things are missing, coupled with the many lies that she stated. And in the video that was being played, she also said, when the dispatcher said did he shoot himself, she said no. And she said it was a self-defense thing and then an accident. And the nine or ten inconsistencies that she has, I`m not buying it.

PINSKY: So, Steve, I want to make sure I get what your gut`s telling us is that not only was the story changing and fluid, there was this high- pitched scream that`s a telltale sign for you. But what we`re watching here is footage of her not seemingly expressing any guilt or emotion at all which is made more acute by the fact that she`s severely intoxicated. Does that summarizs your position?

KARDIAN: The alcohol will amplify the emotion. So, the fact that she`s not showing, and I get the fact that everybody reacts differently.


KARDIAN: But the lack of emotion, especially being intoxicated to a high degree, it should have been amplified.

PINSKY: Hang on, guys. Darren, hold that thought. I`ll have to go to you right after the break. More on Caryn Kelly after this.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was like, "hey, don`t come near me." And he was like, "don`t, He put it to his head, "you`re going to shoot me. Going to shoot me?" And it went off. I`m like "oh, my God. I didn`t ever mean to do that.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host and my panel, and that`s what Steve was talking about there where in spite of being intoxicated, no emotion from Caryn Kelly who`s charged with second-degree murder of her boyfriend. And just like Jodi Arias, she has changed her story many times. Jury selection begins on Monday. Darren, go ahead.

DARREN KAVINOKY, HOST, "DEADLY SINS": Well, alcohol, really, is a wildcard in this case. And certainly, we see all kinds of reactions that people have when they`re under the influence. One of the investigative failings in this particular matter is that she was never tested for a particular alcohol level.

So, we can all look at her and draw some inferences about how, to use mark`s words, how blitzed she was or wasn`t. We know that alcohol is essential nervous system depressant, and in some folks can actually tamp down emotional reactions. I think the other really interesting thing in this case is how the prosecution has downgraded the charges over time where this started as a murder case, and now we`re into manslaughter.

PINSKY: Jenny, what do you mean?

HUTT: Yes. Like, this is a really bad night and a horrible, horrible tragedy. She was trashed. I think he was probably trashed. She had a gun in the house, and it went off. I think in the 911 call, you might have been talking, Steven, about a high-pitched voice, but what I hear is that guttural moan she makes as she`s trying to get him to be alive. "Please stay with me."

I got chills when I heard it. I`ve gotten chills every time I`ve heard it. I don`t think she meant to kill him. I think that it`s just a horrible, horrible tragedy. And I don`t think she`s going to be found guilty -- well, certainly, it`s now a manslaughter charge. I have a feeling, even if she gets convicted of manslaughter, that it`s going to be time served if she`s in jail now. I don`t think she`s going to be go away.

PINSKY: Robi, one last thought, though. These are two people using substances. We think maybe he was, too. Late at night, four in the morning, nothing ever good happens with my patients out of those circumstances.

LUDWIG: Well, that`s true. I think it`s really hard to tell anything from a 911 call. I`ve certainly heard panicked 911 calls where a person is guilty and a person is not guilty. But I would really like to know the history of the relationship here. I don`t know if we can tell from this slimmer (ph) after the murder happened.

PINSKY: Thank you.

LUDWIG: But what was their relationship like before? Was it violent? Was it loving? This is important information we need to know before a final determination can be made.

PINSKY: Was there domestic violence?

EIGLARSH: The victim was impaired, by the way.

PINSKY: He was or was not?

EIGLARSH: The victim was impaired. Double drunk.


PINSKY: So, were they --


PINSKY: Were they using buddies of alcohol and other things? Was there concerns about domestic violence or aggression in the relationship? Were people around them concerned about something happening between them? We`ll find out all that, I suppose, as this trial unfolds. Thank you to my panel very much. I appreciate you participating tonight. The last call is next.


PINSKY: Jenny, I want to give you the last call, but before I do, I want to thank you for a job well done this week. Excellent and really appreciate your thoughts.

HUTT: Thanks for having me.

PINSKY: And you just really were bringing it. So, go ahead.

HUTT: OK. So, here`s my question. What do you think we`re going to hear from Jodi, on Monday, in court?

PINSKY: Well, Jodi is, of course, unpredictable and never ceased (ph) to surprise, but I think she`s going to go for remorse. I think she`s going to make a shot at it, and I think it will be a colossal fail, because it will be so empty. It will be like a prat pole (ph). It will be uncomfortable and unsatisfying for everybody. And we`ll be there. We`ll be covering it. See you then next time.