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Deciding: Life or Death?
Aired May 22, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Thank you, Nancy.
And, good evening everybody.
Co-host this week, psychotherapist, Robi Ludwig, author of "Till Death Do Us Part."
Coming up, we have a man who once dated Jodi Arias.
And we have Travis Alexander`s friend, Chris Hughes. He will join us. Chris will tell us how the Alexander family is holding up as this death phase, the penalty phase drags on and on.
Now, as Nancy said, the jury has left for the night. They told the judge earlier that they cannot reach a unanimous agreement on life versus death. The judge told them to keep at it. So, they will be back at it again.
And as we just heard Nancy`s guests say, seven hours not a long time, Robi, for them to be deliberating on something as serious as a death penalty decision. While --
ROBI LUDWIG, CO-HOST: Yes, I could --
PINSKY: Go ahead.
LUDWIG: I could see that. I mean, this is -- it just shows that the jury is taking this job very, very seriously as they should and they need to.
PINSKY: That`s right. As we heard from juror 8, was it last night or night before, he was telling us, yes, he took this very seriously and he felt as though his fellow jurors did, as well. Some of them felt they were representing the Alexander family, and their wishes, it`s clear they want the death penalty, versus those that seem to have difficulty coming up even with the first degree murder verdict. There were some crying, we heard, we reported, having to put pen to paper for that. I think those are the ones having trouble with the death penalty phase.
Jodi has granted a number of interviews last night. Look at this from ABC15.com. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED MURDERER: That`s me attempting to dress myself. This is my niece when she was a bit younger, playing the piano, or attempting to play the piano.
REPORTER: Are you enjoying the attention, for the record?
ARIAS: No, not this kind of attention.
REPORTER: What were the last words Travis said to you?
ARIAS: I don`t remember the -- it was just idle chitchat. Pictures, you know, no, that one is good. We`ll get that one, we`ll delete that one. OK, you know, just common stuff.
REPORTER: Is that what all the recording was about? Were you documenting at that point?
ARIAS: That`s just something we did. I`ve never done that with any guy before and he wanted to do.
REPORTER: Were you just so frustrated with him and so angry with him?
ARIAS: No, I never felt like I was ever angry with Travis.
REPORTER: You were never a scorned, bitter woman jealous by these other women?
ARIAS: I have no knowledge of it. I assumed there were other women, because that was his modus operandi.
REPORTER: You have nightmares?
ARIAS: I have been told that I scream and cry in my sleep, and several times I woke myself up screaming.
REPORTER: Why didn`t they do an insanity plea?
ARIAS: I don`t know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: You can go to ABC15.com to see more of the interview with Jodi Arias.
HLN correspondent Beth Karas has been covering the trial.
Beth, help me out with this. The way we`re thinking about this today is there have been several trials presented to this jury -- the verdict, the mitigating (INAUDIBLE), guilty versus not, several trials. And now, there might be a new jury for the trial, right?
BETH KARAS, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, indeed. However, I think it`s a little premature. In fact, it was hard to believe that this jury was actually saying they were deadlocked after only two hours of deliberations.
So one has to wonder if they were really just asking for some guidance, what do we do if? I don`t know, it is not the way the judge wrote the note but hard to believe they were actually deadlocked. So, I still predict a verdict in this case.
But if they can`t reach a unanimous decision on life or death, then there would be a mistrial on this phase only and a new jury would be impaneled. And that jury would have to accept the guilty verdict, except the proven aggravating factor of especially cruel and only decide life or death.
So they would hear some evidence, a couple of week`s worth of evidence, maybe, and then they`ll make the only decision only whether or not Jodi should die. And if the state gets a hung jury again, then it is life. They get two shots to give her death.
PINSKY: Interesting. Thank you, Beth Karas.
Joining us now, attorney and Sirius XM radio host Jenny Hutt, attorney Mark Eiglarsh from speaktomark.com, and attorney Areva Martin.
Now, Jodi carefully orchestrated several media interviews yesterday.
Anyone looking at this trial may start to think this whole thing has become circus. And my question to my attorney panel is, has it?
Doesn`t hear us. Mark, what say you?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: A circus, I would say that is a fair metaphor to describe what`s going on. Inside the courtroom, one would argue that the judge is bending over backwards to protect her rights. One concerns me the most is here is a gal who now has affected with jurors with the stuff that`s flowing from her lips. In other words, there are some I believe who bought onto this Mother Teresa of murderer`s routine that she tried to sell them.
EIGLARSH: And yes. there are others like myself who believe that she is as phony as Milli Vanilli`s singing.
PINSKY: But listen, I`m beginning to think -- Robi, old school, too soon, Mark.
Robi, I`m beginning to think the borderline process, one thing people to understand, when they start spinning, they spin out of the control all over the place.
Robi, when we deal with borderlines, we contain, contain, contain, right? If the judge, Mark just triggered something in my mind, if the judge is bending over backwards to make sure there is not a mistrial by allowing anything sort of to go on, borderlines will go berserk. They`ll spin out of control with that kind of thing.
Robi, you understand what I`m talking about?
LUDWIG: Well, right. And Jodi, it does feel like the Jodi Arias show. I mean, it really does. And I think the fact that she was even allowed to give interviews was -- I don`t understand how any judge would allow that.
PINSKY: Forget the judge, the sheriff allowed it.
LUDWIG: Whoever allowed it.
I don`t know who allowed it. But it was very disturbing to see Jodi in action.
EIGLARSH: It`s Constitution.
LUDWIG: It really was, because she was so disconnected. And she seemed to be having a good time. So the question is where is the justice here? Where is the justice for Travis`s family? Because Jodi seems to be having a good time saying whatever she is saying and getting attention for it.
And, Jenny, I know you want to ring in here, but I want to read a tweet from the sheriff, hang on. This is from Sheriff Joe Arpaio. Blah, blah, you`re mad about the interviews, please understand we can`t step on her First Amendment rights. We allowed them, and now no more.
JENNY HUTT, RADIO HOST: OK, God, there are so many things I want to say.
Number one, don`t be such a hater, taking her words. Did you see that interview? That was directly from Jodi`s interview.
Listen, part of the problem that the jury is having is that when we saw her speak in court, she has this affect like an excited teenager. It does a mind trick to us, she almost seems like she was stunted at age 18. It`s really bizarre.
PINSKY: That is someone with a borderline process is. They do appear kind of immature in many different ways, like not a well teenager.
But go ahead, Jenny.
HUTT: Right, and then you go to the interviews, and it`s maddening, because, again, I see it is clearly she`s got mental deficiencies, great mental deficiencies.
But what stops me from being really sympathetic, Dr. Drew, and tell me if you agree with me, she does know the difference between right and wrong. She knows it because she lies to protect herself.
PINSKY: Yes, that`s the part. That`s part. Areva, that`s the part that drives us all to distraction, which is this goal-directed and this sort of deceitful quality, where she is making phone calls to the guy`s phone after she killed him. She`s sending flowers to the grandmother. She is doing these really disgusting, sort of, attempts to cover her path.
Go ahead, Areva.
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: I just think this whole dramatic, you know, Jodi Arias reality show, which is what this has become, this is her, you know, moment in the sun. And she is just shining.
And I know that she has a First Amendment right and has a right to a fair trial. But enough is enough. She`s had it. And I just wish this judge would take control of this trial and get us to closure.
How many more months, how many more millions of dollars must the state spend to prosecute somebody who has so blatantly, you know, admitted to killing Travis? And now, we`ve got to see her paraded on television like she`s some kind of a star? It`s really getting pretty strange.
HUTT: With hair and makeup.
PINSKY: Hair and makeup provided by the media.
MARTIN: Like she`s going to an Oscar party --
PINSKY: H again, she is speaking on a clip for the "Today" show. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Was it guilt? Was it remorse? Is that why you wanted to - -
ARIAS: That was certainly an element. Guilt, remorse, just, I have completely F`d up my life.
REPORTER: If it was self defense, did Travis deserve to die? What do you deserve?
ARIAS: I can`t really comment on that. What I receive will be what I deserve.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So evasive, unsatisfying, and another interview -- hang on -- with another reporter --
MARTIN: I don`t want to die.
PINSKY: I know, it`s unsatisfying. Jodi said later to another reporter or a different interview, she felt betrayed by the jury. Now she says she is OK with whatever they decide.
Areva, that`s what`s driving you go -- Mark, what do you want to say, Mark?
EIGLARSH: Well, doesn`t everyone understand? I`m past the anger stage, I`m almost to acceptance. Everybody understands what she says, she says it is as cold and as calculated as how she`s slaughtered Travis. This was all planned out.
This is all to manipulate to benefit her, and also then angers us. It is --
EIGLARSH: It is with us to not allow her actions to affect us the way that they are. It will continue on for decades.
MARTIN: And it is having an impact because we have this jury now that can`t decide that she deserves the death penalty. So her act is working to some extent.
LUDWIG: She is so smug, though, very smug. That is what bothers them.
PINSKY: It is bothersome.
HUTT: It could -- it could just be that some of them are on the fence about the death penalty.
MARTIN: Whatever it is, they haven`t said she deserves to die, which is what is clearly the case here, based on the evidence.
PINSKY: Not only that, I feel some may be sympathetic to Jennifer Willmott. I think that her plea for mercy might have gotten through, not for Jodi -- but on behalf -- I just had a feeling she got through to somebody with that.
All right, panel, next up, Jodi speaks, and the behavior bureau reacts.
And later, Travis`s friend, Chris Hughes is back. He says he is holding his breath with the craziness, he will reveal why.
Back after this.
PINSKY: Time for the behavior bureau. I am back with my co-host, Robi Ludwig.
Now, Jodi gave a bunch of interviews last night. We will look at some outtakes of what she told the interviewers and the behavior bureau will react.
Joining us, Janine Driver. She, of course, wrote the book, she`s what we call the human lie detector, wrote the book, "You Can`t Lie to Me," clinical and forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt, and criminal investigator and author of "Ultimate Betrayal," Danine Manette.
First, let`s take a look from ABC "Good Morning America". Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: So you really are never going to tell the truth about what went down in that bathroom?
ARIAS: I don`t know what you mean by that, because I have told the truth.
ARIAS: I didn`t know that you were a hater when you came to interview me.
REPORTER: Was going from blonde bomb shell to sort of the mousey church, librarian look in court, was that a defense strategy?
ARIAS: No, they don`t sell Clairol hair dye in jail.
REPORTER: Overall, the demeanor is very different than the person that you were before this crime happened.
ARIAS: This is a court of lie, not a place to go and act crazy. Or I shouldn`t use that term.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Janine, strange smile, no?
JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: It was a strange smile. And as a matter of fact, we saw genuine happiness throughout that interview, including when asked about the pain that Travis Alexander`s family is still going through. Literally genuine happiness, genuine happiness.
And we saw that little head tilt, like this is like attitude. Like I expected the snap to come like oh, no, you didn`t, with that little head tilt she does to her left-hand side. Massive attitude.
Not only that, Dr. Drew, we saw lip pursing. We saw lip pursing, I don`t remember if you remember when Kobe Bryant was charged with rape and did press interviews. He was sitting next to his wife. And in the interviews we saw lip pursing, which is like this, like blowing a kiss.
And this is mental resistant. This sends a message of distress and distaste, so we see that lip pursing throughout the interview, which is very interesting to me as a body language and behavioral expert is to spot this. This is like her saying, you know what, you people are so lucky to have me.
PINSKY: Could it be just like I don`t like this? This is unpleasant. Here we are -- I didn`t know you were such a hater, which is bizarre.
DRIVER: We have mental resistance combined with genuine happiness, that`s where the problem is, Dr. Drew.
Danine, do you have a reaction to this, Danine?
MANETTE: You know the questioning that he was directing towards her, I found it be provocative. And I don`t know if he was doing that on purpose. I know when she said I didn`t know you were a hater, that was probably more in line with I thought this would be more of an objective interview.
But what it did was it brought out that side of her. She was not able to contain that mousey, good girl side anymore. You could start to see the spark of attitude that I think she`s tried really hard to suppress during the trial. But we could see it.
And it was kind of telling in my opinion to, you know, who Jodi really is.
PINSKY: Cheryl, I want you to take a look at the next tape, her sorry from ABC`s "Good Morning America" and then we`ll comment on it. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Why didn`t you apologize to them?
ARIAS: I did apologize to them.
REPORTER: You never said "I`m sorry".
ARIAS: I said that I`m sorry, that I`ll never be able to make up for what I did.
REPORTER: You didn`t use the word "I`m sorry."
ARIAS: Well, I`m sorry I didn`t say that because certainly I am sorry. The words "I`m sorry" just seemed meaningless, especially since nobody believes what I`m saying anyway.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Cheryl, that is a little interesting clip there, isn`t it? Nobody believes what I`m saying because I`m a liar, not any -- again, no responsibility for being the liar that no one can believe. But then feelings are meaningless, she really means that. Feelings are meaningless.
CHERLY ARUTT, PSYCHOLOGIST: Whatever she does seems meaningless. It seems not connected to the actual situation. That was a dodge. There is no question about that. But the stakes just don`t get any higher than this.
Yesterday, with her statement and giving these interviews, which was a really questionable choice there, but she really demonstrated what it is like for a person not to be oriented to the situation.
Dr. Drew, you know, this is one of the things we look for when we evaluate people. She seemed completely oblivious to the fact that she was talking to people who had the power to grant life or death, and she was asking for mercy. She had an opportunity to repair with the Alexander family in some way.
And the interviewer gave her another opportunity to do that. She wasn`t able to do it. Her personality disorder is so rigid and it blocks her. Her pathology has never been on display the way that it was, I think, yesterday.
PINSKY: Yes, Robi, you`re nodding your head, put a little coda about this issue of her seeming immature, too, which I think people see that. Go ahead.
LUDWIG: Right, I think Jodi really feels she is smarter than everybody else. And that was so bothersome and enraging. She`s manipulating the situation, so she feels she can handle any question that comes her way.
And that`s when she gives snide answers, because she is angry. She`s angry. She wanted to be perceived a certain way.
And as far as her personality, many feel with borderline personality, it`s an under developed personality. And we see the danger when somebody is really unable to have any empathy to evaluate that they`re wrong in any situation and just focuses on the self. That is a prescription for very dangerous behavior and I think that`s what we see with Jodi.
PINSKY: She also flip-flopped on the death penalty.
Here is what she told ABC`s "Good Morning America".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Why do you keep talking?
ARIAS: Because just because I lied before, doesn`t mean I am a liar by definition.
REPORTER: You know they want you dead, so why don`t you give them that closure?
ARIAS: Well, what do you mean by that? By asking for death I`m only going to cause more pain.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Janine, you`re the lying expert, what is she talking about? I lie a lot, I`m not a liar. What is she talking about?
DRIVER: I am jotting this down. I wish I had this right now to teach my class. I am here in Atlantic City, I wish I had this.
She said I`m not a liar by definition. In statement analysis, which you`ve talked about quite a bit here, we know that people literally say what they mean. Like if I said to you I`m never going to -- I know you think I`m cheating on you. That person just said I`m cheating on you, versus I`m not cheating on you.
So, here she says, you know, it doesn`t mean I`m a liar by definition, she is literally saying that. We heard it a second ago, similar, she said, if I said I`m sorry, that`s meaningless. She is really revealing with her words, O.J. Simpson after he was arrested, that whole drama, following him in the bronco.
He said, for those of you who believe in my guilt, taking ownership of guilt. Honest people don`t take ownership of guilt. So, statement analysis is really fascinating.
Here, Jodi, she also said something in an ABC interview I have to share with you. The local interview, she said I expected to hang out with Travis that last night. That`s not what I was expecting at all to happen, which is the murder.
Who says -- that`s not what I expected to happen. Who talks like that when you slaughter someone?
PINSKY: But you guys I`m having an emotional reaction. I, yesterday was feeling -- I need the behavior bureau to analyze me, I actually felt sympathetic. A human being`s life was on the line, she was in distress, she was suffering, maybe deserved it. I get all that.
But today, I`m infuriated, I`m beside myself I`m so angry with this woman. I feel like everybody else does now, she flips us into this. What`s happening to me? Cheryl?
ARUTT: You know, I think that my view, as you know, there is a sociopath/psychopath component, and a borderline component. When we`re in touch with the borderline piece of her, we feel compassion, especially you and I, Dr. Drew, because we`re tuned into that. But when the psychopath/sociopath part kicks in, and that disconnect happened, that`s when I think it grabs us.
PINSKY: Yes, yes. Danine, do you understand what Cheryl is saying? There`s a part of us that we worked with sick people, we feel bad for them. But the psychopath part when it`s goal-directed and cold-blooded, I got none of that. I get angry only.
MANETTE: I mean, that`s why she`s good at what she does. She`s good at drawing people. She did it during that entire police interview where she`s kind of coy and she kind of plays on her soft and meek side. And she just pulls you in and draws you in.
And I think that that was what you were experiencing yesterday. And I really was a little bit worried. But I`m glad you`re back on board now.
PINSKY: Thank you, Danine. Thank you.
MANETTE: So, thank you.
PINSKY: But, Robi, you get what Cheryl is talking about.
LUDWIG: I do.
PINSKY: You can feel compassion for a borderline, who feels chaotic and out of control and has horrible relationships. But this cold-blooded smug, holier-than-thou, begs the alternative --
PINSKY: -- I`m not sorry could be I don`t have feelings, I get that. But I`m not sorry because I`m not sorry, that bugs me.
LUDWIG: I think she would say it as a chyron, I`m not sorry, and don`t you think I`m pretty. And I`m like the J.Lo of the prison system, and maybe I`ll have a perfume called double woman. Do you want it?
PINSKY: I need a bath. I need a shower.
Janine, you want to finish and take us home?
DRIVER: Yes, it just drives me crazy. I got to tell you, I did an event today. Fifty percent of the people in the room have been following the case and I came back, and on a break twice, I spoke twice. And when I came back, I told them the jury came back and didn`t have a decision.
Every -- the whole crowd of 2,000 people were all like this big like ahhhh, and Travis Alexander`s family that we are falling in love with more and more every day and our hearts break for them.
PINSKY: Yes, I want to talk more about the family on the next behavior bureau. We`re going to talk more with the panel and get more reaction from more tape.
And later on, Travis` friend, Chris Hughes, on not one, not two, but three big mistake he says Jodi made.
Back after this.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Robi Ludwig, and the behavior bureau.
Before I go with this clip, guys, I was just thinking about this. How many of you all, teenage years or whatever, did a little stalking behavior, like you know hanging outside of somebody`s house, calling and hanging up, show of hands? Show of hands?
Janine, who else? Danine? Cheryl, come on, Cheryl, come on, a little bit. Robi, no?
LUDWIG: Maybe driving in a car by a house, that is not stalking, is it?
MANETTE: I stalked the prom to see who the guy I wanted to go with, was going with. Me and one of my friends, Monica.
PINSKY: It`s getting a little weird. OK, anyway, but my point is, there is a certain amount of that stuff that`s normal. A lot of people do that kind of thing.
And there is a certain part of Jodi that is kind of a sick, crazy girl. When did she become the person we hate? Because that`s what started happening to me now. I was sort of more emphatic for her yesterday. And all of a sudden, this other piece came up.
Is this psychopathic piece, Janine, that`s sort of been hidden, where she could have gone, if she hadn`t murdered Travis, she would just be another kind of difficult person?
DRIVER: I think what makes Mark and me and the team, all of us scream at the camera and the television set is, when she is in court and really snarky to the prosecuting attorney, with the lack of respect. You know, even today in one of the interviews we saw, she said I want to stop this from dragging on. And she has this genuine smile. She is lighting up.
Not only did she do that in the interviews from last night that we see airing today, but in court today she is laughing with the bailiff or the police officer on the side. She is cracking up laughing. She got off on all these interviews last night.
When we see that and see Travis Alexander`s family in pain, that`s what make us scream, and put our hands and fist and get really angry. These non-verbals are not matching her verbals.
PINSKY: That`s right. I wanted to give you another clip of Jodi`s interview with ABC15.com. Jodi was asked about the verdict. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Are you mentally, emotionally ready to meet your maker if that`s their decision?
ARIAS: Well, I`m ready to meet my maker, but if that time should come. But if that`s their decision, it would drag on for years and years. So -- it is not really contemporaneous, do you know what I mean?
REPORTER: Yes. You`re saying you have a lot more time, even if you get death, you still have years to live is what you`re saying?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Cheryl, there she is again, begging no alternative to her view of the world. She went on in the interview, I saw more of it. By the way, you can watch more on ABC15.com. She talks about religion, talks about heaven and hell.
And again, she understands those things. She knows heaven and hell. And the heaven she knows, the hell she knows where she is going, maybe nobody else understands but she has special understanding of it and she`s going to be fine.
Cheryl, her sense of the world begs no alternative.
ARUTT: I think, Dr. Drew, you`re responding to her arrogance and her narcissism there. Her sociopathy, I`ve had some very interesting people writing in on my Facebook page about this, about how, sadistically, she really is throwing in these things to torment the Alexander family. And even there, the clip you just showed -- oh, well, if this happens, it`s just going to drag on for a long time. And, you know, she`s really kind of milking all of this, and what some people who are experts in sociopaths are saying, is that sadism, that enjoying torturing and putting one over on somebody is something that most normal people can`t get their minds around.
The astonishment and the reaction that I think you`re having and other people are having is because we don`t think like she does. So, we keep getting astonished. Our jaw keeps dropping like, really, is this really happening?
PINSKY: Yes. I can`t get my head around psychopathy. I can`t do it. Danine, but I think I`m back, Danine.
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: You know, her whole demeanor is in total contrast to her whole defense. If she was actually, you know, fighting for her life against this naked guy, you know, who was attacking her and she really just was total self-defense, why would she even be expressing the desire to die? Why would she not be expressing the desire to fight on and show the truth if what she was saying was really true?
But this whole, you know, whatever happens, it`s going to take a while and whatever. I mean, is that a person who really believes their own defense, which was self-defense?
PINSKY: No, I agree with you wholeheartedly, Danine. And -- but it`s also a person who has magical thinking. I have the secret. I can magically make things happen. People drag on forever. I`ll get a new trial, well, whatever.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSY.D., PSYCHOTHERAPIST: But it`s so disturbed, because if any one of us were waiting to hear about our fate and a jury was deciding this, I can guarantee, we would not be saying make-up, please, and who should be interviewed by, because we`d be too nervous.
PINSKY: We can freak out. Yes.
LUDWIG: We`d would be like oh, my God! This is crazy. This is really happening, and it`s almost like reality -- right. She is not confronting reality. And I think that`s also matting (ph). And I think the reason, Dr. Drew, why you`re hating her a little bit more today is because we`re hearing more from her. So, we`re seeing how sick she really is.
PINSKY: I think you guys are on to something. Now, I want to address something else, too, before we let you guys go. I`ve said many times on the show how my heart goes out to the family, and I`ve sort of -- my own co-dependency got attached to Samantha. And you guys know I`m a severe co- dependent, and I started calling her my Samantha. But please, that`s just -- that`s all my stuff.
It doesn`t mean that I have any less empathy or concern for instance, for Steven, who I know has PTSD. And I`m actually worried about him. And if we can help him, please, the family should reach out. There`s Steven and Hillary and Tanish and Ally and Greg and Gary. Listen, these are all my Alexanders. By the way, my entire team here thinks about them and talks about them all the time.
So, please, just because of my pathology which my co-dependency start going out to Samantha because I was seeing her cry all the time, I needed to make that staff doesn`t mean were thinking any less of the rest of the family. So, you guys understand what I`m talking about, my panel?
JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: I call you my Dr. drew.
PINSKY: Well, that`s good, Janine. Thank you for that. And Cheryl, I know I`ve unloaded my stuff on you many, many times, so thank you for being there for my nonsense.
ARUTT: Thank you. No. I`m always happy --
ARUTT: -- about all this, Dr. Drew. And I think your compassion is a big part of why people feel so connected when they watch you. And I think this will be a really good time just to also bring up. You know, I`m a big fan of EMDR, which is a very effective short-term evidence-based trauma therapy.
There are people all over the country who do it. You can go online to EMDRIA.org and find somebody. And the images that are in people`s minds, they really can, once this is over, get some help with that. I hope they do.
PINSKY: Great point. It`s something we would specifically get safer. Steven who is stuck with these swirling with these horrible ideas, and then, by the way, still going through excruciating, who knows what, how much longer, excruciating pain as this thing drags on. Thank you, Jodi.
Now, if anyone has a question or comment for the behavior bureau, tweet us at @DrDrewHLN #behavior bureau.
Thank you, panel. Next up, Chris Hughes doesn`t want to see Jodi die or get life in prison. He`s got his own sentence for his friend`s killer.
And later, Abe Abdelhadi returns with a few choice words for our friend, Jodi.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED MURDERER: I didn`t know that if I got life, there were many things I can do to effect positive change and contribute in meaningful ways. I`ll share with you examples that I thought -- my hair was past my waist, and I donated it to "Locks of Love." I designed a T- shirt. This is the T-shirt. Some people may not believe that I am a survivor of domestic violence. They`re entitled to their opinion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Robi Ludwig and Mark Eiglarsh and Jenny Hutt. Joining us all, Travis Alexander`s close friend, Chris Hughes. Now, Chris has something you want to say, I guess, about Jodi`s survivor team (ph), but before you do, here`s what Jodi told Fox 10 KSAZ in Phoenix last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The survivor T-shirt you had in court today, many people thought that was bad for you, that it wasn`t a great taste, and it may have worked against you, what do you think about that?
ARIAS: I don`t see how helping a cause is working against me. If it`s in bad taste, well, then, that`s their opinion and they`re entitled to that, but it`s a cause that I believe very strongly in. And if I didn`t, I wouldn`t have shown that T-shirt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Chris, I want to get your thoughts on what she said in court, on these interviews, and answer this, if you would mind, has the family had to be subjected to all these interviews?
CHRIS HUGHES, TRAVIS ALEXANDER`S BEST FRIEND: Well, first of all, on the family, yes, they`ve unfortunately seen them. I don`t know how -- if they`ve all seen all of them. But yes, and I spent some time with the family today, actually, prayed with them. And we were together most of the day. I talked to Greg and Gary who are just busted up that they can`t be here.
They jobs just won`t, you know, won`t allow that to happen. So -- but they are, you know, loving Travis and wishing they could be here as much as all the rest of them. But yes, on that, I think that Jodi showing that T- shirt is probably the third greatest mistake of her life. You know, first, being that she premeditated this murder, you know, and then tried to cover it up. And of course, she did it. So, that was number one.
Number two was -- was going on television and saying all that she said and changing her story and she just keeps doing it. And then, number three was holding that T-shirt up in front of the jury and in front of the world as though she doesn`t understand that she`s one of the most hated people on the planet right now.
And I really think that that`s going to work against her. There are some people on that jury who have just must be outraged having seen her do that.
PINSKY: I agree with you Chris. And I think -- Mark, I think you have a question for Chris. I`ll let you do that in just a second, but I think a lot of people on that jury must be thinking, really, you want us to give you a satisfying life of service? That`s what you`re asking for us. And by the way, you, service to other people? Mark, that`s not the woman I want out there helping others necessarily.
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: No, I think that her selling T-shirts on behalf of domestic violence victims is like Casey Anthony selling shirts on behalf of missing children.
EIGLARSH: It`s disturbing.
EIGLARSH: Chris, I want to ask you something. Chris, first of all, love you, brother. It`s nice to see you again. I`m very concerned about what the jurors may not decide. And I`m wondering, there`s going to be a conversation between Martinez and the family if they`re undecided, and it`s going to be, hey, are you guys OK with round two? Can you handle it?
And the next jury, they`re not going to know the gory details. So, we`re going to have to let them in on that. it`s going to take a lot longer. Is the family up for it? I`m not up for it. Are they up for it?
HUGHES: Yes, I`m not up for it either. I talked to several of the family members today. And what they`re all unified in is they`re all unified in capital punishment in this case. Are they all up for doing this again, you know, the sentencing face? Some are, some aren`t. But it`s tough. My heart just breaks for them, you know? This is very, very difficult situation.
PINSKY: Let me ask a naive question of mine. It seems like a lot of what they`re suffering through is what they have to sit through in court. Can`t they just allow to go and just take a few days off to take for mental health care, take care of themselves?
HUGHES: Well, I wish they would, you know?
HUGHES: I mean, this is -- but they won`t, you know? I don`t think they will. I mean, they`re here to see this through.
PINSKY: No, I see that. I wish, please, convey to them that we want them to take care -- we need them to be OK. Jenny, do you have question for Chris?
JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: Yes, Chris, how invested in this outcome do you think the family is? Do you think they`ll be OK if the jury comes back with life in prison?
HUGHES: Well, I talked to Greg and Gary today, because, you know, we hear a lot about some of the other family members that are able to be here in court, and they both said the same thing, that they`re unified with the rest of the family, that they want the death penalty in this case. But that they`re going to respect the outcome of the court, you know?
Whatever the jury comes back with, you know, they`re OK with that. The one thing they don`t want, none of them want, any possibility of parole in any way shape or form, ever.
PINSKY: Excellent. And Chris, if I were to ask you, what sentence you would like to see her get, what would your response be?
HUGHES: Well, philosophically, you know, I`m not opposed to capital punishment. I believe in this case that she deserves it. I mean, let`s bring it back to brass tacks. She premeditated a murder. She stabbed him 29 times. She virtually decapitated him. She shot him in the head. She killed him three times. And if that weren`t enough, there`s all of these other stabbings. So, let`s just remember that.
And then, she`s lied and lied and lied again. And she`s tried to cover her tracks. So, I believe that that is fitting. Having said that, I`m not attached to the -- you know, to whether or not they actually put her down. I think what is really fitting for Jodi Arias is the life of a death row inmate. You know, 23 hours a day in a cage, in isolation. I think that -- and a long life in that environment.
PINSKY: Yes, I think everybody is fairly unified in that one. Thank you, Chris. We do appreciate you joining us as always and your thoughts. And please, the best out to the family from us all here at DR. DREW ON- CALL.
All right. We`re going to switch gears and talk about whether Jodi is the most hated woman in America. A man who once dated her has no problem with calling her that, and he has a few choice words of his own.
And later, my jury made a unanimous decision. We`ll talk to them after this.
PINSKY: Welcome back. My co-host this week, psychologist, Robi Ludwig. Joining us, Abe Abdelhadi. He is the man who once dated Jodi Arias. So, Abe, I`ve been saying that you have some choice words. I don`t know quite what they are. Should she get the death penalty? Let`s start with that?
ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI ARIAS: Absolutely. There`s no question in my mind that she should get the death penalty. I don`t want to see her get life, even natural life. I want to see her get the death penalty. I want to see her locked in a cage for 23 hours a day and how they treat death row inmates is how I want to see her treated.
It`s not about -- she wasn`t convicted on lying, she wasn`t convicted on, you know, being a martyr for society, she was convicted because she brutally murdered somebody who didn`t want her back. That`s the bottom line.
PINSKY: Now, Jodi was asked how she felt about being what we might call the most hated woman in America. She said she wasn`t aware of that and feels a lot of love and support. Abe, is some of that love and support coming from you?
ABDELHADI: Not at all. And in fact, this quote/unquote "love and support" from a couple of hundred postcards, I think, is evidence by the 50 people who like pro-Jodi pages versus the thousands of people, literally, who support Travis Alexander and his family. There are 50,000 people on one page, 5,000 people on another page.
You go to some like Jodi Page. It`s like 50 people, 40 people. So, it`s the same in reds (ph) recycling themselves, and they write her a postcards. So, she thinks she`s loved. It`s really kind of comical if it wasn`t so brutal.
LUDWIG: I don`t think she cares.
ABDELHADI: No. She can`t possibly care, because she`s out of her mind. She`s like that oblivious sitcom character who nobody likes, and she has no idea that nobody likes her.
LUDWIG: And tell me this, tell me if you think I`m right, that Jodi doesn`t care because any attention is good attention. She feels she`s known, she exists, people are recognizing her. Now, she`s getting the attention she`s always dreamed of and wants. And so, she feels, in some way, she is in a good place and she can still get out of this. And I think what`s so enraging is that she doesn`t take any responsibility for any of her behavior which is crazy-making (ph).
ABDELHADI: On a bigger picture, she`s (INAUDIBLE). If you ever saw L.A. confidential, she`s the one who got away with it. And everyone in America or anyone in the world that`s been watching this, she`s the husband that cheated on the wife, she`s the boss that ripped you off and did not pay you. She`s that person that made you miserable and got away with it.
Now, people are venting onto her because she did this heinous thing on top of trying to get away with it in the most heinous way as possible, lying about a guy`s character, lying about his sexuality, lying about beating her, and then she has the only thing she can glom on that`s even decent, now she`s going to be is the paragon of battered women with their dopey T-shirts.
Pardon me, well, I`ll let (ph) the class just walked over me for the t-shirt thing. That drove me nuts when she pulled out the T-shirt, then she has a nerve to see an interview. Everyone is upset about the T-shirt. That`s not my problem. No, no, it is a problem, because you`re out of your mind. And if this was another network, there are some other choice words that I would be using right now, I promise you.
PINSKY: Mark, real quick, just couple of seconds.
EIGLARSH: Abe, first of all, thanks for your passion. You never hide your feelings, but very quickly, do you think it`s because of something Jodi said that the jurors are hung up or some other more generic reason?
ABDELHADI: Honestly, Mark, I`ll be candid with you. I honestly think it`s because she shared her baby pictures.
ABDELHADI: -- adorable as a five-year-old. He had a leader hose (ph) in and a cup and he`s little chubby cheeks. So what. He had baby pictures, so she got baby pictures. She grew into a woman that almost chopped a guy`s head off on top of everything else. Today was very frustrating that anybody could come back and doubt that you signed up for death penalty case, and now, you`ve got problems.
PINSKY: OK. Guys, thank you.
Next up, I got to go to my jurors. They have no problem with the verdict. Their decision after the break. But before we go to them, let`s go to Ryan Smith and Vinnie Politan for a preview of "HLN After Dark".
RYAN SMITH, HLN ANCHOR: Thanks, Drew. I`ll tell you what. It was frustrating for a lot of people. They expect it. Would we get a verdict today? But Vinnie, no dice. This jury is really struggling between life and death.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: They did send a note out, though. And the note was "hey, we can`t reach a decision." So, I`m wondering if our jurors tonight will be able to reach a decision. They look confident.
SMITH: They do. They`re confident, they`re ready, "After Dark" coming up.
PINSKY: Time for Dr. Drew`s jurors. Joining us, Katie Wick and Stacey Fairrington. Katie, no verdict. Do you think Jennifer Wilmot`s plea for mercy resonated with someone on that jury?
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": Not at all. I don`t think Jennifer had anything to do with it. I think there`s absolutely nothing Jennifer could have said that would override the brutality of this crime at all. I don`t think she played a part in this at all, Drew. And I have to say that I agree with this whole notion that there is not a deadlocked jury. I, too, read what this local journalist put out.
And if this note is, in fact, verbatim, what was asked -- they`re saying "if." It is a hypothetical, "if we cannot get past this stage, what do we do? How do we communicate with you, judge?" So, I felt more comfortable after I read that this afternoon.
PINSKY: So, you`re saying it`s more just that they want some communication, some guidance, not that they`re actually deadlock, correct?
WICK: Absolutely, yes.
PINSKY: OK. Stacey, what`s going on there in the courtroom? How`s the family doing? What`s the story? Is there tension now that we can`t really pick up on, watching through the cameras?
STACEY FAIRRINGTON, DR. DREW "JUROR": You know, I don`t think it`s tension. I think it`s just everybody is waiting. And I think, you know, we`ve been here for months and months on end. And I think, you know this is kind of the final thing that we`re waiting for. And, you know, I think the family is hopeful. I really do.
And I have really placed a lot of faith in this jury. I think they are going to get it right. I think they are going to bring back a death -- you know, I think they`re going to put her on death row.
PINSKY: Well, thank you for being unanimous in your position. And, you guys always bring me good information. So, I think we`ll sleep well tonight and we`ll see what the verdict is, hopefully, tomorrow. Thank you, ladies.
Last call is next.
PINSKY: Time for the last call, Robi. This thing has me spun emotionally. I go from compassion to anger. I imagine -- I think most people are just sort of in one camp or the other. I go back and forth.
LUDWIG: I know. I keep getting e-mails from my mother, she deserves death. But I guess the question is, will the law act as the rightful --
PINSKY: We will --
LUDWIG: -- for Travis Alexander`s family.
PINSKY: --hopefully find out tomorrow. Thank you all. Thank you, Robi.
LUDWIG: Thank you.
PINSKY: "HLN After Dark" begins right now.