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Revelations from the Jury Room
Aired May 28, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, inside the Jodi Arias jury room.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is this your true verdict, so say you one and all?
PINSKY: Why was the jury that convicted Jodi of murder unable to put her to death? Two jurors with answers are here tonight.
Plus, what do we know about Trayvon Martin that the jury will never hear.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening, everyone.
That`s right. We have two jurors from the Jodi Arias case joining us tonight.
And with me, my co-host, Sirius XM radio host and attorney, Jenny Hutt.
And as I said, two jurors break their silence. Jenny, I know you`ve got a ton of questions. I know I do as well.
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Yes. Of course, I mean, it`s a big deal. These are the actual juror whose decided her fate.
PINSKY: Well, one is an alternate, but she`s got a ton of thoughts and a ton of insight. So, you`ve got to be with us to hear these ladies. They`ve got a lot to share.
But first, the Jodi Arias trial is far from over, everybody. A new death penalty is right around the corner. And just when you`ve heard everything, Jodi comes out with a few new gems about herself and her future. Take a look at this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The defendant should be sentenced no unanimous - - no unanimous agreements.
REPORTER: You killed someone. How hard is that going to be? And how hard is it for you to deal with that?
JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED MURDERER: It`s very -- it makes me feel very ugly inside. And I know that that was just one day, but I feel like, even though it shouldn`t, it`s going to define the rest of my life.
JUAN MARTINEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: His family, Travis Alexander will be 30 year, 30 years old for the rest of his life of.
REPORTER: Do you think Juan Martinez crossed the line between doing a good job, doing what he`s supposed to do for the state of Arizona and being abusive?
ARIAS: I couldn`t say that he wasn`t?
REPORTER: You`re a good girl gone bad. But when you cut everything away, is that your story?
ARIAS: I think I was and still am a good person, and I don`t think that Travis was a bad person either. We just made really awful choices.
ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI: So she`s got baby pictures. She grew into a woman that almost chopped a guy`s head off.
REPORTER: Did you ever think you`d find yourself as the focus of a murder trial?
ARIAS: No. This is the kind of thing that you hear about other people going through. I really want to help other people. I have some ideas also of books that I`d like to write, not regarding my case.
JUDGE: I declare a mistrial as to the penalty phase.
PINSKY: HLN legal correspondent Jean Casarez -- Jenny, I know you`re jumping to the screen, I saw you jump around while Jodi was talking. You`ll chime in just a second. I want to talk to Jean Casarez about Jodi`s day to day life now in jail.
I heard the sheriff cracking down on what she can and can`t do. I don`t see where she`s going to be writing any books or spending any time helping other people.
JEAN CASAREZ, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): No, I don`t think so. She remains at the Maricopa County jail tonight. She continues to be in what is called closed custody.
She is in her cell by herself. She`s in there 23 hours a day. One hour a day, she`s allowed out. And that can be anything from a shower to a phone call to a little bit of exercise. But even her meals are delivered to her alone in her cell.
PINSKY: Thank you, Jean. As you know, we`ve got jurors coming up. I`m sure you`d love to talk to them, but my panel will be the ones speaking to them.
We`re going to talk to you, Jean, a little later in the show. Joining us right now, attorney Mark Eiglarsh from speaktomark.com, defense attorney Anahita Sedaghatfar, and Michelle Ward, psychologist and host of "Stalked" on Investigation Discovery.
HUTT: OK. So, I get it. A mistake shouldn`t always define one mistake, one day shouldn`t always define someone`s life. But, Dr. Drew, that`s in the case of the mistake like oops, I ran a red light, or oops, I had sex with someone who wasn`t my boyfriend. Not oops, I murdered someone.
Come on, Dr. Drew. It`s unreasonable.
PINSKY: Mark, Jenny almost flew through the screen. She`s in New York. I`m in Los Angeles. I felt her fury coming to the screen.
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Right. I am not going to let Jodi somehow dictate my happiness any further. Jenny can continue to let her do that, I am simply waiting for the next penalty phase. The jurors will decide. And then her fate will be decided, and she`ll either be isolated or unfortunately, live in the general population. We`ll let it be.
PINSKY: And Jodi says she`s a good person. She`s a good person. I just had a bad day. One bad day. Can`t let that one day define somebody.
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Dr. Drew, there`s something seriously wrong with her. I don`t think anyone can dispute that. I mean, I`m quite frankly very perplexed as to why the defense did not embrace the prosecution`s expert diagnosis of borderline personality disorder.
I mean, she`s nuts. There`s something wrong with her. And I`ve said over and over, she is the defense attorney`s worst nightmare. Those interviews were given while she was sitting, waiting to see whether or not those jurors were going to kill her.
I mean, that`s just terrible. And I think the only reason those four jurors decided to spare her life was because of the job her attorneys. And in spite of Jodi Arias, not because of her.
PINSKY: And, Michelle, not only borderline. But we think a little sprinkling of psychopathy, too.
MICHELLE WARD, PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely. And when is she going to learn that the interviews do nothing but hurt her. She`s just making potential jurors more angry, I think. And I agree with Anahita. I think that the defense should have embraced her diseased mind and then maybe we could have gotten second degree, because I mean, look, she`s obviously very sick. Denying it didn`t help.
PINSKY: And I want you guys watch this. The jury foreman spoke to ABC`s "Good Morning America". Now, not only we`re going to get a clip of this, I`m going to ask the jurors themselves what they felt about this little interview. Here`s a little piece of it right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JURY FOREMAN: No, I think 18 days hurt her. I think she was not a good witness. She was on the stand for so long, there were so many contradicting stories.
I think the way the prosecutor was with her, he`s known for an aggressive style. And I don`t think it did her any good, no. That length of time? No, I don`t think it did her any good at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Mark, do you think we`ll see her again in round two?
EIGLARSH: You think you`re going to be wearing glasses tomorrow? Of course. Of course, she`s going to testify.
This is her -- she loves the limelight. She will make sure that she makes sure her hair looks the way she wants, whatever outfit or suit he wears that day will be carefully selected. She can`t not be in the spotlight.
PINSKY: Anahita, what if you had this woman as your client, what would you do?
SEDAGHATFAR: Dr. Drew, I am pulling my hair out watching her speak. I mean, she is a defense attorney`s worst nightmare. And clearly, she was running the show. No wonder her attorneys tried and begged and pleaded to get off the case.
I mean, I seriously feel sorry for them. And I actually feel bad that they were getting such hate tweets and a lot of people attacking the defense attorneys. I think they did the best job they could possibly do with a client that they simply could not control. Jodi Arias is Jodi Arias` worst enemy, and I think the result -- the murder one conviction I think couldn`t have said it any better, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Now, Michelle, in addition to being an expert in psychopathy and certain kinds of criminal behavior. You`re a jury consultants. Do you think these post-conviction interviews are going to hurt her in round two? Or will that jury be exposed to these?
WARD: Well, how could they not be? They don`t know who they are, so he don`t know not to watch. I think it`s going to hurt her.
But again, if she`s on the stand, it is hard to put to death somebody who`s sitting right in front of you. So -- and talking to you. So, I mean, I think she is trying to reach them. I don`t know if they`ll see them or not, but it might be a moot point because she`s going to be across from them eventually.
PINSKY: And, Jenny, just quickly, was that a nod, a nod saying that you still could convict her or that`s where the trouble is?
HUTT: No, no, no. I think the foreman in another interview had said something to that point, that she was so slight, her affect, knowing her, she was pretty and little, it was hard for him to choose death.
PINSKY: So, Jenny, basically, could you go kill somebody if you wanted to. You`d be fine.
HUTT: Would I be fine?
PINSKY: You`d be fine. You`re small, you`re slight. You`re all set up. That`s all you need now to get through a murder conviction now I guess, right?
HUTT: No. Not if you`re me and conflicted. That`s just me about the death penalty. Why do we have to go there again, so I can get slammed again, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Sorry, sorry, I don`t want to go there.
Next up, the jury did, in fact, convict Jodi of murder, with premeditation. The question everyone is asking is why could they not sentence her to death? What went on in that jury room?
I have jurors here exclusively who are going to tell you what happened in the jury room. They are fascinating. They have quite a story, two different stories to tell, but really very insightful. They took this job extremely seriously.
And later, what we know about Trayvon Martin that that jury will not hear.
Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAN GIBB, JUROR #8: We all filled out that questionnaire at the beginning. We answered it honestly, could we impose the death penalty. But when it comes down to it, you never really know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt and Mark Eiglarsh.
And joining us: Diane Schwartz, also known as juror number six in the Jodi Arias murder trial. This is her first prime time interview.
And Tara Kelley was juror number 17. Is it Tara or Tera? I want to get that right.
TERRA: It`s Tara.
PINSKY: Tara, I got it right.
She has not publicly spoken about the trial until now. And I want to encourage viewers to go ahead and call in. We are live. Call in at 855- 3737395 is our number. And you, too, can ask questions of the jurors.
We have a million, I know Jenny, and Mark, you have a million as well. Let`s have at it.
Ladies, be open, be honest. That`s what we`re about here.
Diana, I start with you. You actually voted for death.
DIANA SCHWARTZ, JUROR #6: Yes, I did.
PINSKY: How hard was that?
SCHWARTZ: I can`t begin how hard it was. This is something I`ve believed in my whole life. If you do the crime, you need to do the time. You need to be held accountable for your actions. I felt that all the way through.
And the day that it was turned over to us, for the penalty phase, I went home and spent the whole night assessing how I could do it, if I could actually say she should be put to death. And I got to that answer.
PINSKY: Was there something particular that tilted you towards it?
SCHWARTZ: Probably -- well, I shouldn`t even say probably. It was definitely looking at all of the aggravating factors that were part of that crime, i.e., the brutality of it, the cover-up, the lack of remorse, the untruthfulness of it all the way through. And it was just a matter of -- when I looked at the mitigating factors, those mitigating factors being was she abused? Her age, her criminal history, those just did not weigh enough in my mind to look at what she had done.
PINSKY: Mark, you have a question for Diane?
EIGLARSH: Yes. Diane, put us there with words. You`re deliberating now in the penalty phase. Obviously, those eight in favor of death made their positions clear. What about the other four? What did they say as to the reasons why they couldn`t impose death? Was it generically because they just couldn`t do it or did they feel there were mitigators?
SCHWARTZ: They all felt there were mitigators. And the way --
EIGLARSH: What do they say?
SCHWARTZ: The way the jury instructions are given to you is you look at the eight mitigators that were presented before in the penalty phase. And to be very honest, I cannot remember all eight of them. But some of them were the things that Jodi could accomplish if she were to live. It was the fact she was 27, no criminal history.
And then there was a big factor on she had been abused, that as a child and in her relationship with Travis. And that was key to many of the people. Those were some of the mitigating factors.
And then, remember, that all of the evidence was presented before us in the actual criminal case. That evidence could be used as mitigating factors. And so some of those people looked at text messages and voice mails, et cetera, that had been left, and felt there was some abuse there.
And that was their personal decision. And it was up to each person to assess that and weigh it how much it meant to them.
EIGLARSH: And, Tara, let me turn to you. You are an alternate. My question is, A, after having spent all those months dedicated to really putting your time in evaluating this case, suddenly, you find out you`re on the outs. What was that like?
And, secondly, had you been in, would you have voted for death?
TARA KELLEY, JUROR #17: It was very, very devastating. When I heard my number called. I was kind of in shock.
As soon as we left the courtroom to go into the jury room I started crying. I was fully invested. I asked a lot of questions.
And to hear your number called and know that you`re not going to be able to make that decision, it`s very, very difficult. Had I been in the jury room, I thought that Jodi deserved death as well.
PINSKY: Tara, you were the one that asked some of those snarky questions. Tell us about that.
KELLEY: I have no idea what you`re talking about.
KELLEY: No, I think one of the most important questions that I asked -- and I asked it because I really wanted to know what she was going to say was after all the lies you told, why should we believe you now? Because, you know, a lot, you know, I know personally, I did not believe her, you know, halfway through, all the stories and all the lies that she was telling.
So I wanted to see what kind of answer she would really give us.
PINSKY: And, Mark, I know you have a question. She`s the one that was asking the questions we were so grateful for during the trial.
EIGLARSH: Yes. Tara, apparently we`re Twitter friends. And I followed some of your tweets. And one of the things that you wrote was, "Jodi is psycho." What did you mean by that? What did you really mean by that?
KELLEY: Well, I meant the fact that she, she did all of this stuff, and she can literally sit there with a straight face and say I didn`t do it, as far as the real reason that she probably did it, saying that, you know, the abuse and the pedophilia, and she just sat there with a straight face. I don`t understand how she would be able to do that if she was a normal human being.
PINSKY: Jenny, you know she wasn`t.
HUTT: She`s not a normal human being, but first of all, I want to thank you for coming out and talk to everybody.
PINSKY: Yes, indeed.
HUTT: Like that`s brave to show your faces and go through this.
But my question is, with this outcome not being exactly what you wanted it to be, do you believe that justice has been served? Do you believe in the system?
SCHWARTZ: I think we have to believe in the system. That`s what we work under. Do I like it? No.
But it was an individual choice. And it`s a hard choice to make. It`s a hard decision to make. It`s the hardest one I`ve ever faced in my life. This has been the hardest five months of anything that I`ve gone through in my life experience.
So, it is part of our system and we have to abide by it and work with it.
PINSKY: And, Diana, in spite of it being so difficult for you to come to terms with giving the death penalty, you`re the juror who mouthed the words "I`m sorry" to Travis` family. Tell me where that came from and you were meaning there.
SCHWARTZ: It came right out of my heart. I -- like Tara said, we were very invested in this. We spent five months together. We had heard a lot of information, taken a lot of notes, and then been through a month of deliberations, and time off, et cetera, it was almost a month, period.
There was a lot of emotion there. And I was so committed to making sure that we could work together. We had done so well as a cohesive work group to get the conviction on premeditated murder, and also to show that aggravation had, it was proved to us that aggravation had occurred, or it was aggravated.
And to not be able to come to a consensus and, and actually issue a unanimous verdict in the penalty phase was just, I took it very personally, because I wanted to see it a unanimous decision. Either way, I wanted to really see it a unanimous, but there was just no way we could get there. Tara, do you think had you been on that jury could you have made a difference?
KELLEY: Well, obviously, I only have one vote, but if I were able to give my perspective and my theory on how I thought things happened, you know, maybe it could have swayed a couple more people, but those people chose their answer for a reason. And it`s not going to do any good I guess to speculate on what --
PINSKY: What could have been. Yes.
Now, Diane --
EIGLARSH: Drew --
PINSKY: Hang on a second, quick question, Mark.
Diane, you told us back in the green room that when Steven, and I guess Samantha, too, was giving their testimonial, you were maybe a few feet away from them. What was that like?
SCHWARTZ: That was absolutely -- when they call them an impact statement, let me tell you, it had an impact that was unreal. Steven and Samantha were probably about five feet directly in front of me. I wanted to reach out and hold them. I saw how angry and upset Steven was, but so emotionally distraught.
I think that that -- you know, we never knew what their family was really all about until that day. Because I did not know that there were eight siblings in that family. None of that history was given to us in court. And so we kind of surmised that that was the family as we walked out, but we really didn`t know until they stood before us that day.
And I think that`s what precipitated me to say I`m sorry. I was so distraught over not being able to reach a unanimous verdict. And as I walked out, it just, it was heartfelt.
It was something that I couldn`t, I couldn`t stop. It was just, I hadn`t thought about it. I just did it.
PINSKY: And, Tara, how about you? How did it affect you?
KELLEY: Well, the impact statements were probably one of the top emotional days of my life. Like Diane said to hear what all they went through and that Jodi did so much more than just kill Travis. She has affected so many more lives out there. And to actually hear that, it was devastating.
You know, I didn`t know the verdict when we walked in. And when the verdict was read, I lost it. I could not control my emotions.
I just, like Diane, I personally felt like the family was let down, because you could tell, by the statements and everything, that they wanted Jodi to get the death penalty.
PINSKY: Yes, very clearly. OK, guys, thank you so much. And stay with us.
We`ve got more with Jodi`s jury. They`re going to reveal what went on behind closed doors.
And later, self-defense or second degree murder. What the jury in the Trayvon Martin case will not hear.
Back in a moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAS: You should have at least done your makeup, Jodi. Gosh.
This is a really trivial question, and it`s going to reveal how shallow I am, but before they book me, can I clean myself up a little bit?
COP: You`re going to be taken the way you are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hut, and Mark Eiglarsh. Still with us, Diane Schwartz, she is juror number six in the Jodi Arias murder trial. Tara Kelley, juror number 17.
Now, Tara, you were -- were you aware of these tapes? And if you were, since you`ve become aware of them, what`s your reaction to Jodi`s behavior now?
KELLEY: Yes, I`ve had a lot of sleepless nights since the verdict was reached. So I`ve had a lot of time to catch up on different clips, and I did see the interrogation videos, and I have to say the most disturbing thing to me, personally was when she was saying, gosh, Jodi, you should have put on your makeup at least, or however she said that.
To me, it was very disturbing. It showed a lot that she didn`t have any kind of remorse for anything that happened. She was worried about what she was going to look like when she had her picture taken.
PINSKY: Diane, I`m going to ask you the same question. And we`re also wondering what you thought when she got up there for her mitigation phase, where she was trying to persuade everybody she had so much to offer, and she hold up a t-shirt. What did you think?
SCHWARTZ: Well, first of all, the tapes, the one that was just played, I hadn`t seen those. So they are new to me. Those are the first - - well, I have seen a clip since the verdict was issued over the weekend.
But it`s all about Jodi, her feelings, and her way, and the way that she presents. Her statements in the penalty phase strictly, it`s the same thing. It`s all about Jodi -- very disingenuous, very disengaged, not being participating, or not accepting responsibility for what she`s done, again all about Jodi.
The family, the word sorry never, ever came out. It absolutely ate on me. I didn`t believe a thing I heard.
PINSKY: Oh, interesting.
Now she told a reporter from ABC News about how she reacted, how felt about the jury. Take a look at this and I`ll have you guys react.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: What do you think of this jury? It`s pretty clear they don`t think too much of you. I wonder what do you think of them.
ARIAS: I don`t know, I feel -- I feel a little betrayed by them. I don`t dislike them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Tara, she doesn`t dislike the jury. I understand you had a little reaction from her at one point, no?
KELLEY: I have no idea, again, what you`re talking about.
No, I think you`re referencing the -- the stare downs, as I call it, as far as, a lot of times, I would look at Jodi to see what she was doing.
You know, your life is on the line. You should be engaged in what`s going on. And it just so happened a lot of times I would look over at her, and she was staring at me. So I would stare at her.
And all of a sudden, she`d write something down. So, I don`t know if she was trying to figure out ways to get me kicked off. I`m not really sure, but yes, we did have quite a few times where we did stare at each other.
PINSKY: Interesting. Did you get a sense of who she was in those sort of -- you know, you got a, three weeks on the stand. You`re looking at her trying to figure her out. Did you get any where with that?
KELLEY: No, not really, I mean, again, it just showed me that she had no remorse. She wasn`t even interested in what was happening in her own trial.
PINSKY: Let`s take a call from Charles in Pennsylvania.
Charles, go ahead.
CHARLES, CALLER FROM PENNSYLVANIA: Yes, I`ve got a question for the jury, Dr. Drew. I want to know what they thought of Alyce LaViolette.
PINSKY: OK. Let`s go to Diane first.
SCHWARTZ: I believe that Alyce knew and understood her topic re well. I do not believe she was an expert witness in the terms of her ability to answer questions and to present her side. More of a supporter of Jodi and not necessarily giving us the facts about what had happened and what had occurred. And she was -- she got very confused with many of those facts.
PINSKY: I think she`s an excellent advocate but not a great expert witness.
PINSKY: I bet you threw a few good zinger questions at her. What did you ask her?
KELLEY: Well, you know, one of the questions I asked, but it didn`t get asked was just about, did PTSD and amnesia have anything to do with what happened to Travis? I just felt like we spent so much time on those topics. And it really had nothing to do with what was going on.
PINSKY: I`ve got a question from twitter. This is @hopsman24. It says @DrDrew, "Did the foreman influence others and sway them to life #jodiarias?" Diane, I`m asking you that question.
DIANE SCHWARTZ, JUROR #6: Absolutely not. The foreman`s duty is really to submit questions to the judge, sign the verdict form and make sure that we don`t kill one another in the jury room. That -- that was never an issue. We never had any disagreements or any point where it was contentious or that somebody quit talking or wouldn`t participate. The attitudes of life were strictly individual choices.
There was absolutely no swaying. I have to say, as deliberations occurred and what, what was discussed, that there was a lot to say, this is what I, myself, look at. These are how I weight the mitigating factors. Can you give me anything else that I`m missing that could change my mind and that just couldn`t be done.
So, there was a lot of discussion that way, but the foreman did not have any leverage or pushiness at all whatsoever with that group.
PINSKY: Go, Mark.
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: Diane, because it`s such a personal decision, such a personal choice, do you think that now that we take 12 people who are going to claim they can be fair and impartial, do you think that they`re somehow going to reach unanimous verdict? Do you ever envision that taking place?
SCHWARTZ: It`s going to be extremely hard, Mark. I agree with you. It is hard for 12 people to come to such a personal decision. But as you well know, that is how our law addresses the death penalty. And I guess that`s how we`re going to have to live by it. I`d love to debate that one forever, because I think a minority won on this if you were in the minority.
However, if you supported the minority, you think that it was the death penalty reverse. So, you know, you could argue it forever.
PINSKY: Lisa, go right ahead, you`re in Utah.
LISA, UTAH: Yes, Dr. Drew. I have a question -- for the jurors. Have you learned anything that the public was privy to that you think would have made coming to a unanimous verdict easier?
PINSKY: Tara, I`ll ask you that first.
KELLEY: Well, I think one of the biggest things that I feel could have been a huge impact in the trial was the interrogation videos of her parents.
KELLEY: I felt like them basically saying that she had been troubled since early teenage years could have really, really helped the state`s case in the penalty phase.
PINSKY: How about you, Diane?
SCHWARTZ: I think so, too. I think that those parents` videos are very telling. And I`ve only had the opportunity to view them once, but, they are telling. And I also believe that there were -- and I don`t -- I don`t know specifics. You guys probably know this more, but I think there was some significant amount of information about stalking that was not entered into evidence.
But, you know, we had to base our decisions on the information that was presented before us in those four walls of the courtroom.
PINSKY: Of course. We actually have a stalking special coming up later this week where we look at Jodi Arias in relation to other kinds of stalking. So, please look forward to that. Diane -- Tara, I can`t (ph) ask this question I want to ask of Diane. So, you`ve been sitting in this courtroom for months. Now, you`re filed into a room where you guys can finally speak to one other about this case. What`s the first thing you guys talk about?
SCHWARTZ: We hugged one another. We all cried. It was really more a sharing of emotion and let down when we were all together and could, could talk about it. A few of us now have talked about some of the tapes we`ve seen, specifically, the interview right after the guilt phase. But that`s more -- and we`ve done a lot of what ifs, you know?
PINSKY: And what are they saying about those tapes?
SCHWARTZ: Can you believe it?
PINSKY: Right. Same thing we`re all saying.
SCHWARTZ: Yes. Exactly. It`s just another indication of the manipulation and the playing that was put upon us when we were in court.
PINSKY: Interesting. OK. Thank you, guys.
Coming up next, we`re going to bring in the behavior bureau. They have some questions of their own of our jurors and that is up after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to know if you enjoyed the tootsie pops and the pop rocks. I`m not asking you about his attention.
JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED MURDERER: I can`t say enjoy would be the right word.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There can`t be a middle ground. You either enjoyed it or you didn`t, right?
ARIAS: That`s not correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In your view, you can go through and act and not enjoy it but also enjoy it. What are you trying to say?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Time for the behavior bureau. Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, still with us. Arias` juror, Tara Kelley, who was juror number 17 and Diane Schwartz, juror number six. I want to go out to -- before I go to the panel, I want to go out to a Twitter question. It`s from @liberty_lover @DrDrew, "Ask again about what they thought about the survivor T-shirt because they never answered." Tara, that survivor T- shirt, how did you react to that?
KELLEY: I really didn`t understand the point that she was trying to make as far as she was already convicted that we didn`t believe that she was abused. So, I really didn`t understand the concept of the survivor T- shirt.
PINSKY: Did it offend you in any way?
KELLEY: It did a little, because obviously, we didn`t believe her the first time.
PINSKY: Interesting. Now the panel joining us, criminal psychologist, Michelle Ward, psychotherapist, Wendy Walsh, author of "The 30-Day Love Detox." And now, ladies, I want to give you guys a chance, from the bureau, to ask the jurors a question. Michelle, you`re a jury consultant. So, what`s your question for these guys.
MICHELLE WARD, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: How long`s the show? I have a million questions.
WARD: And I`m trying to distill it to, you know, something that hasn`t been asked. Great questions have been asked. But first of all, I want to thank them for their service.
WARD: It is such a tough job. Your life is on hold indefinitely, really. And so, thank you for that. And, then I want to ask, was there anything that did compel you from the defense? Maybe Jodi herself or one of their defenses about abuse or maybe one expert witness? Was there any moment where you were thinking, oh, well maybe this isn`t so cut and dry?
SCHWARTZ: You know, I think when Jodi first started, I felt a little bit of doubt in my mind as am I really believing or am I making an opinion? But after that, there really wasn`t too much that the defense could show to us. They had a hard job. They had a very difficult job.
PINSKY: And Tara, did you have any sense that the entire world was watching this trial? Or if you became aware of it, at what point were you aware? And then, how did you screen it out? How were you able to prevent that from, you know, affecting you as a juror?
KELLEY: We had no idea. They really did a great job as far as at the courthouse, keeping the media away from us. As far as we would go out different ways, we would avoid the front of the courthouse. And as far as at home, we had heard so much of it at the court. We didn`t want to go home and watch it, let alone we weren`t supposed to, you know?
And I was asked that question from the defense. And I told them, at my house, it`s lifetime, sports or nickelodeon. I don`t want to watch anything else that is in regards to the Jodi Arias trial.
PINSKY: From now on, she`s only watching HLN. Wendy, what do you have for the jurors? Go ahead, Wendy.
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., AUTHOR, "30-DAY LOVE DETOX": Well, my question is this. Assuming that all the people on the jury were asked the question ahead of time whether they could enforce the death penalty. And assuming they all could, we know we`ve heard that, of course, some members didn`t want to give her the death penalty.
What were the pieces of the trial or Jodi`s statements that made those people not want to enforce the death, do you think?
SCHWARTZ: I think from the perspective of not wanting to enforce, that`s looking at the mitigating circumstances. It was really the abuse, I think, was the biggest, the potential that there was abuse, the text messages. A lot of it was verbal and emotional. It was also her age.
WALSH: So, the perception was that these text messages clearly indicated to some jurors that she was abused?
SCHWARTZ: Some verbal abuse, not physical but some verbal and emotional.
PINSKY: And Wendy, they didn`t know the context that those were -- that was after he had been stalked, after he`d done everything to get rid of her, after all his friends had intervened and tried to get her off. This was his desperate anger to get this woman out of his life. Jenny, you have a question.
JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: I do, you guys. Is there anything about Jodi that let you to have any compassion for her? Was there anything about her that you saw during the mitigation part of the trial where you were like OK? Was there anything at all about her that was redeeming to you?
SCHWARTZ: Not to me, there wasn`t. At that point, we had had so much information submitted to us. And the lack of remorse, I did not feel that there was any remorse. And so, there just wasn`t a redeeming factor for me.
PINSKY: Stay put, panel. Stay put, viewers. We got a lot more ground to cover. Tara and Diane are staying with us. Stay right here. We`ll be right back after this.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt and our exclusive interview with the Jodi Arias jurors, and they will be remaining with us, the remainder of the hour, with the behavior bureau here as well. Michelle, it`s your turn again to go to the juror.
WARD: OK. So, I have a question. This case definitely went the way that I think the public had hoped it would go.
PINSKY: In terms of the first degree murder charge.
WARD: But we`ve seen recently other cases go another way, and those jurors had a lot of heat from the public. And I was wondering if these jurors were worried about how their friends and family might perceive them based on what they ultimately decided.
SCHWARTZ: That was never a discussion that came up in the jury room. I never had that feeling at all regarding the premeditated murder first degree. I tried to approach it very analytically, looking at aggravating factors versus the mitigating, and what had happened in that whole scenario. And so, there was never any discussion about what the public was going to think.
PINSKY: I`ve got another quick Twitter here. This from Suna Withers (ph) @SunaWithers says, "@DrDrew, question for the jury. What did you think of Juan Martinez? #jodiarias. Tara, what did you think of Juan?
KELLEY: Well, I have to tell you, jury selection, I was very scared of him. He was very, very tough. It almost felt like we were on trial. But when he got in his element, you could see his passion for Travis. He was Travis` boy. You could see his passion for the family and just his job in general.
I thought that he was very effective. I did feel sometimes he was a little bit too much, but for the most of it, I thought he was very, very good at his job.
PINSKY: Tara and Diane, I wonder, do you guys, either of you, have a question for the behavior bureau? I mean, here you are, left your own devices to try to figure out what this woman has done. You must have had a million questions about what`s going on. And we`ve spent months sort of analyzing it, looking at it. You`ve got a couple of experts here who can answer questions. Do you have any?
KELLEY: I have a quick question as far as, you know, Demarte had diagnosed her with borderline personality disorder which sounded pretty like a good explanation. Is that how you guys felt? Is that what --
PINSKY: We did. We did. We came up with borderline very early, but the fact that she went so far with the killing, and then Michelle talked about the goal directiveness after the killing, we started thinking she was borderline with psychopathy.
WARD: Yes, and that`s what was so interesting about her. I mean, she is a textbook borderline personality disordered suffer, but then, when she killed, she is textbook psychopath. I mean, she is one of the scariest people, I think, walking the planet because she`s so hidden. She`s cloaked this this little girl, and she`s a very dangerous person in my opinion.
PINSKY: Wendy, your thoughts?
WALSH: Yes, I would agree. And what`s interesting about the borderline personality disorder is, you know, they very, very rarely become murderers. So, this other component sort of helped that along. More often, borderlines hurt themselves. A full eight percent suicide rate, actually.
PINSKY: Right. Yes. So, we were not surprised at all when that border line disorder came up, and it was nice to see it confirmed with what`s called psych testing. Psychological question -- testing. I want to get to John in Ohio real quick. What`s the question, John? We`ll answer it after the break.
JOHN, OHIO: Hi, Drew. My question to both jurors, how do you feel knowing that a second jury has to come in and make the final decision on life or death?
PINSKY: Great question. Great question. We will answer that after the break. Be right back.
PINSKY: We were going to get into the Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin case tonight, but we`ve got too much going on with our jurors here. So, we will address that tomorrow night. John asked a question before the break. Let`s get an answer from Diane.
SCHWARTZ: I think what I think about how I feel, it`s hopeful. I don`t really know, and I don`t fully understand how they`re going to present all of the information for them to be able to make the decision. The premeditated murder stands. The fact that aggravated murder stands. And so, it`s a summary of that information presented to them.
So, I`m hopeful. I`m hopeful that people can take and be very objective and look at aggravating and mitigating and give us a verdict.
PINSKY: Tara, my understanding is you had some feelings about Jodi doodling all the time.
KELLEY: Yes. Again back to the whole your life is on the line here, you know? And I felt that she was so disengaged when it wasn`t her own lawyer speaking that she just wasn`t interested. She had no interest in what the state was saying or their witness were saying, and I felt that it was kind of a turnoff.
I know it`s a turnoff for me. I can`t speak for other jurors. But I just feel like, again, your life is on the line. You should really be paying attention and trying to sway the jury that you are remorseful.
PINSKY: Here`s another Twitter from @ETNGRL, "@DrDrew, do the jurors have an opinion of why Jodi killed Travis since they don`t believe it was self-defense" -- Diane.
SCHWARTZ: I believe that -- my personal belief is she was just obsessed with him. She couldn`t let him go. He didn`t want her there, and she couldn`t accept it.
PINSKY: Michelle, a perfect place for you to come in with questions, you, the psychopath expert.
WARD: Well, yes. And that plays into the whole stalking thing, and it plays into the borderline personality disorder. And, I mean, I would love to hear what you think happened from beginning to end. And I know it`s a short show and I know we don`t have that much time.
PINSKY: About 30 seconds. Except for that.
WARD: But I have a quick question, are you going to be disappointed if she doesn`t get the death penalty.
PINSKY: Both of you. First, Diane.
SCHWARTZ: No, I won`t be disappointed if she doesn`t get the death penalty. I think that we have to make sure that she`s treated within our criminal justice system fairly. Inside, my own personal, a little bit of disappointment, but I know that we`ve done our job as jurors.
KELLEY: Yes. Again, what Diane said, I would be disappointed, but I`m not going to be upset. And I feel that if it comes to the judge having to decide, I`m not worried about what she would decide either.
PINSKY: Thank you, guys, so much. Thanks to everyone. The last call is next.
PINSKY: Time for the last call. Jenny, there you go. Really interesting, right?
HUTT: Yes. Those jurors were incredible. And so kind to come and share this with us. And I heard from your producers that behind the scenes, they were just so gracious --
PINSKY: Oh, yes.
HUTT: -- and can`t believe the hoopla surrounding them.
PINSKY: They were fantastic. In fact, there`s a Twitter came in. I want to read to you. This just sort of summarize. It is from @helloLoko, "@DrDrew, Wow! I really feel that jurors in this trial, feel for them. The women speaking today are really brave and give a ton of insight."
And so, you and I have now spoken to three jurors. We had juror number eight who is off the jury, but three people who really did their civic duty and they`re so impressive and the seriousness with which they took this. One doesn`t feel great about the outcome, but at least, they got that first degree murder charge.
HUTT: Yes, but it kind of puts faith in the whole system, right, that people came and did what they were supposed to do.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes, it does. Jenny, thank you so much. Thank you to the jurors, of course. And thank you to my panels and our callers. I`ll see you next time. "HLN After Dark" begins right now.