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Jodi: Countdown to Death?
Aired May 29, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Jodi Arias round two. Mark your calendar. It all starts again in just weeks.
Your number 6 is back with more on what went on inside the jury room.
And if ever a case falls in the bureau, it is Amanda Bynes fall apart before our very eyes.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening, everybody.
My co-host is Sirius XM radio host and attorney, Jenny Hutt.
And just in, the Arizona Supreme Court has ruled that the death penalty stays on the table in the Jodi Arias case.
And in just a bit juror number 6, Diane Schwartz, is back with us. She`s worried -- get this, Jenny -- about some of her fellow jurors. I`ll tell you what I mean about that.
What do you think?
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: I`m -- she feels bad that they might be struggling after the fact?
PINSKY: You`ll have to stay with us to find out -- as she, too, is struggling and Tara we talked to yesterday is struggling.
In the meantime, I`m struggling about Amanda Bynes, the former child star. She`s actually my daughter`s favorite actress growing up. She loved "The Amanda Show". And poor Amanda seems to be unraveling right now as we speak.
But before we go on to Amanda, we`re going to talk about Jodi and the juries. Watch this.
DIANE SCHWARTZ, ARIAS JUROR: Really, the abuse I think was the biggest, the potential that there was abuse.
JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED MURDERER: I didn`t want people to know the level of violence that our relationship had reached. He reached his right hand over to hit me.
SCHWARTZ: The text messages.
KIRK NURMI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Was he assertive an aggressive with you in these e-mails, in these text messages?
ARIAS: Very much.
TARA KELLEY, ARIAS JUROR: The most disturbing thing to me personally was when she was saying, gosh, Jodi, you should have put on your makeup at least.
ARIAS: You should have at least done your makeup, Jodi. Gosh.
SCHWARTZ: Those parents videos are very telling.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jodi has mental problems. Did she just snap or what? I don`t know. And then how could she come back here and be normal.
KELLEY: So, I would stare at her and all of a sudden she`d write something down.
PINSKY: The jurors were thinking many of the same thing we were all thinking. We have the advantage, though, of looking at some of the tapes like the interrogation tapes and having the behavior bureau when you discuss this and she wanted, they were by their lonesome trying to figure this Jodi character out.
Joining us, Shanna Hogan. She is a reporter and author of upcoming book about the Jodi Arias case, it is called, "Picture Perfect."
Shanna, what`s going on now with Jodi?
SHANNA HOGAN, AUTHOR (via telephone): Yes. So, today, the Arizona Supreme Court basically ruled that the death penalty is still on the table. And this was based on the detective Flores` original assumption that Travis was shot before he was stabbed. And so, the Arizona Supreme Court ruled that it was not perjury.
PINSKY: Excellent. Shanna, thank you for keeping us apprised of what`s going on and I assume Jodi is still on 23-hour lockdown by the sheriff?
HOGAN: Absolutely. The sheriff is being very tough on her right now.
PINSKY: Thank you, Hogan. Joining us on the panel, Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at speaktomark.com, Samantha Schacher, social commentator and host of "Pop Trigger" on Young Turks Network, and Loni Coombs, author of "Your Perfect and Other Lies Parents Tell".
All right. Mark, what would the legal team look like in round two? Are we going to see Nurmi and gang back again? Or is it going to be somebody else?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Well, I hope the legal team looks exactly like Nurmi and Willmott, not because I admire their physiques but because you bringing anybody else on and they look different because they are, we`re going to be waiting six months. This isn`t a simple possession of marijuana case. Anybody can just jump in and try. Anyone that comes on is very there to try to save her life and will then have to look up at the judge and say, I can`t go in a couple of weeks.
So, for everyone`s interest, especially Travis`s family, let`s hope as much as you don`t want to see the slow cross-examination or speech of Nurmi, it`d be better to have the same faces there.
PINSKY: Let`s not forget, guys, Jodi told us all and the jury she has plans to start a recycling program and a book club. Remember the t-shirts?
Loni, we just heard that`s not exactly the life she`s leading and probably won`t ever leave.
LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: Right, probably excited to see the grand plans come about, hold your breath a little bit longer. The women`s prison she is going to actually already has a recycling program and several book clubs. They don`t need --
PINSKY: Good to know!
COOMBS: She is maximum security now. So, she doesn`t get out. She doesn`t get to interact with the other inmates. It`s very limited and the sheriff saying it`s several years before she can even start to earn the right to have less restrictions.
PINSKY: And, by the way, guys, the rest of the panel listen carefully. Jenny, listen to this, Loni is spreading a rumor that Jodi is pregnant, right?
PINSKY: How can she be pregnant if she`s on lockdown?
COOMBS: There are no conjugal visits in Arizona either. So, I`m just saying that.
PINSKY: That`s a lie? Just a rumor?
COOMBS: It`s a rumor. Made up.
PINSKY: Jenny bought all the way in. Jenny wants it to happen.
HUTT: By the way, it`s possible. She could get some prison guard, I suppose.
HUTT: It`s possible.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: That`s what I said.
COOMBS: Didn`t want to go there.
PINSKY: As always, my panel`s taking it to some place my mind can`t go. Thank you ladies for doing that.
Jodi`s story is being made into a Lifetime movie. It is called "Dirty Little Secret." Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How about when you cut his throat?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t remember.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Samantha, you are a pop culture expert here on the panel. How is this movie going to play? What do you think?
SCHACHER: Well, I think people will be receptive to it. I mean, Hollywood loves to turn these high profile murder cases into dramas. We saw it with Casey Anthony. We saw it with Andrew Peterson and people tuned in.
Now, what I think is disturbing is how soon it is. I mean, the premier date is, what, June 22nd? That`s way too soon and I think for the Alexander family, they need to catch a break. They need to have a little bit of breathing room here.
PINSKY: I appreciate your sensitivity, Amanda. Mark "too soon" Eiglarsh, is shaking his head no.
SCHACHER: What do you mean no?
EIGLARSH: Here`s the major issue. Hold on. Here`s major issue. The major issue is you`ve got to pick a jury.
EIGLARSH: This movie is going to come out before you pick a new jury? This is already a problem.
SCHACHER: Maybe they want a sequel.
PINSKY: One at a time.
SCHACHER: Yes. Maybe they want a sequel. They know how much people love to watch this Jodi Arias show. I mean, it`s incredible to me. You see it on social media. People are 100 percent drawn in to this case. Whether they`re sympathetic to seeing justice for Travis Alexander or because they`re in it for the entertainment value.
PINSKY: Loni, you have something to say there?
COOMBS: Well, for two or three people who didn`t actually watch this trial the first time, they`ll watch the movie and think that`s what the real evidence is and take it to in to the jury room unfortunately.
HUTT: But in all fairness, I happen to have a chance to speak to the director of the movie and he said they took some liberties and it`s mostly about how they perceive the relationship and it ends before the verdict is delivered.
PINSKY: Oh, that`s interesting.
SCHACHER: Dr. Drew, it is the same people that were the -- same producers involved in the Casey Anthony drama, as well as the Andrew Peterson.
COOMBS: But it is the relationship. That`s the part that the jurors don`t really know. That`s what they`re trying to figure out from the evidence and if they see the movie that fills in stuff that maybe didn`t really happen.
PINSKY: Interesting. You know, tonight, later in the show, we`re going to hear -- I`ve asked for calls through the social media and I`m asking for it now at 855-3737395, for people that support Jodi. We want to hear from those people tonight.
Now, you`re stepping on the lines a little bit, whoever does call in. But we want to give you a chance to have your day here to speak whatever it is you have to say.
PINSKY: Yes, Mark? Yes.
EIGLARSH: Do you know how much crap you`re taking on social media for having the people heard?
PINSKY: No, I do.
EIGLARSH: I want you to address that.
PINSKY: Well, I do --
EIGLARSH: People have said they`re not tuning in because you will have the people on.
PINSKY: Well, I hope you will back me up that they have a First Amendment right to speak. I`m not necessarily giving them a forum to run out of control, but certainly be interesting to hear what they have to say.
This panel, obviously, is going to disagree with them. But let`s hear what they`ve got to say. I`m interested who that group is. It`s going to be intriguing.
Guys, good job.
Next up, juror number 6 is back with us tonight to talk what we call Arias anxiety. It`s the behavior bureau and their diagnosis and their syndrome, they now call Arias anxiety.
And as I said, if you`re an Arias supporter, give us a call right now, 855-DRDREW5, or 3737395.
And later, we`re going to look at a shocking murder, allegations of an affair and a woman on trial for a murder, possibly the next Jodi Arias. There she is.
Back in a moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: In spite of it being difficult to come to terms with giving the death penalty, you are the juror that mouthed the words "I`m sorry" to Travis`s family. Tell me where that came from and what you were meaning there?
SCHWARTZ: It came out of my heart. We were very invested in this. We had spent five months together. We heard a lot of information, taken a lot of notes.
And to not be able to come to a consensus and actually issue a unanimous verdict in the penalty phase was just -- I took it very personally. I was so distraught over not being able to reach a unanimous verdict and as I walked out, it just was heartfelt. It was something that I couldn`t stop.
It was just -- I hadn`t thought about it. I just did it.
PINSKY: Time now for our behavior bureau. Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt.
Diane Schwartz was juror number 6 -- you just heard her speaking there -- number 6 in the Jodi Arias murder trial and she is on the phone with us now.
Diane, thank you so much for coming back and also thank you for having joined us yesterday.
SCHWARTZ: Well, thank you for having me.
PINSKY: How are you doing now?
SCHWARTZ: I`m doing much better today. Much better.
PINSKY: Good. All right. We`ll talk about all that.
Joining us is Samantha Schacher, as well as psychologist Cheryl Arutt and psychotherapist Robi Ludwig, author of "Till Do Us Part".
All right. Now, Diane, it`s been nearly a week since the judge sent you home and tell us how it`s gone for you. We sort of -- I think our bureau has labeled this syndrome, the Arias anxiety syndrome. It`s sort of a huge letdown, anxiety, there`s a lot of things we want to get in to about what this thing is, how people are feeling and how you as jurors particularly are feeling.
SCHWARTZ: Well, there`s definitely a letdown and one of them was, first of all, when the trial was over, it was the time that Judge Stevens spent with us. She spent about an hour and a half with us after she released the jury and court was adjourned.
And she really showed the professional caring but as well a personal caring and gave us a sense that it was OK to have your own individual decision. And just the humor and the discussions and the explanations of what was going to happen in the future helped I think everyone immensely.
PINSKY: Cheryl, I`m going to go out to you and maybe you can ask questions of Diane, as well. But my question would be to you is, it must be very tough for these guys that formed a family unit there, they felt very -- although they weren`t talking about the case, this was a very cohesive, close group of people that spent months together invested emotionally and intellectually and very intense experience that they all shared. It was under the scrutiny of worldwide media and, all of a sudden, it`s over.
What do you think she`s experiencing and what questions do you have for her?
CHERYL ARUTT, PYSCHOLOGIST: Well, Dr. Drew, nothing bonds people together like going through some kind of really intense experience that only you and these other people have been through, and especially when there`s this kind of pressure and intensity.
And I don`t think anybody can really know what it was like except for that particular group of people.
Diane, I have to tell you that you and Tara Kelley was so impressive yesterday. I was absolutely blown away by how -- how much respect you had for one another and how seriously you took this very, very difficult job.
And I`m just wondering, how are you doing now that you`re in that, you know, it`s over. You had this intense scrutiny. You had to make a very, very difficult decision and now, you`re hearing from people you didn`t even know were watching and everybody`s got an opinion.
How are you coping with that?
SCHWARTZ: You know, it`s interesting, especially with my friends. Those opinions are, Diane, you did a remarkable job. I`m so impressed. We`re proud to be an American -- I`ve heard that numerous times today. We`re proud of our criminal justice system.
Those positive comments are so rewarding to me personally. I think you`re exactly right. The jury talked about this. This is experience that nobody else will ever, ever, ever understand. And it`s one that we are bonded together.
And that cohesiveness that you saw with Tara and I was really that way with all of the jurors. We had a real bond and we really did work very well together. So, going back in to it, it`s slowly -- meeting with friends, slowly. And that`s exactly what I have done.
I have -- I have had some things that I had to do to get my life back in order, i.e., laundry and those types of things, but then also to be able to go out socially now and be able to talk to people.
PINSKY: Jenny, you had a comment?
HUTT: Yes, I do. If after being insulated in this trial and not a part of all this hoopla that we have been a part of and watched, how`s the sensory overload aspect of it? How are you managing the onslaught of information given to you now?
SCHWARTZ: Sometimes I`d just turn it all off. Other times, I turn it on, and I really get a dose of it.
So I think it`s just a variation of where I am that day and other things that I have to do and do I really want to listen to this or, i.e., the Jodi Arias story and saga, or do I want to go on and do something differently? It`s been a balance.
Today, I`ve spent my day working on a work project I needed to do.
PINSKY: Cheryl, quickly go to Robi first and say that I imagining what she`s talking about Diane`s doing, in addition to getting back to the structure of her daily life, to sort of her normal routine, as opposed to the routine structure she was in before. It seems like she`s saying something that we can all learn and take a page from which is talking, sharing emotions with other people.
That`s all we`ll get through this post-Arias letdown.
SCHWARTZ: You know, it`s very interesting that you say that, Dr. Drew, because we went and had breakfast on Sunday morning and we were with a group of -- there were just six of us and, of course, all of the people around the table wanted to talk about the breakfast or wanted the talk about Arias at breakfast. But also, people walking by that knew that I had been on the trial and finally my husband just sits back and he says, I`ve just got to let her talk. She`s got to get it out of her system.
PINSKY: Robi, do you agree with that?
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOLOGIST: Oh, absolutely. And I`m wondering, Diane, if you see yourself continuing to have a relationship with the jurors on the trial, almost like a support group meeting during certain holidays or anniversary -- Jodi Arias anniversaries -- as a way to support one another or to continue to process what you have all experienced.
SCHWARTZ: Oh, definitely. Definitely. There`s been several times already that one e-mail has come just from person to person, checking in with you. Are you OK today? Are you doing all right?
So, those things, our network is out there and we will forever have that bond. We will always continue to talk and that includes alternates, those jurors that were dismissed.
We`re all starting to reach out to one another and have conversations going on. We do plan at some point in time to get together.
We haven`t scheduled any get together at this point.
PINSKY: A reminder, Tara was here last night and the jurors. She was juror number 17. Tara Kelley and she shared her emotions. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLEY: The impact statements were definitely probably one of the top emotional days of my life. Like Diane said, to hear what all they`ve been through and to see that Jodi did so much more than kill Travis. She`s affected so many more lives out there and to actually hear that it was devastating.
You know? I didn`t know the verdict when we walked in. And when the verdict was read, I lost it. I could not control my emotions. I just -- like Diane, I just -- you know, I personally felt like the family was let down because you could tell by the statements and everything that they wanted Jodi to get the death penalty.
PINSKY: Samantha, you wanted to make a comment here?
SCHACHER: For one, I just want to thank Diane for being here, for talking to us. You did an incredible job and all of you jurors for taking your job so seriously and for providing a voice for Travis Alexander. I commend you. I can`t imagine being in your shoes.
But I`m curious and I know we have talked about it a little bit, but how aware were you and the other jurors throughout the trial of the media circus? Were you guys aware at all? Did you know that you would be coming in to this after you guys were dismissed?
SCHWARTZ: Not really, no. We knew that there would be some type of exposure. We could tell when we would go in to court the amount of cameras that were around the courthouse, that that was for the Arias trial.
You couldn`t put that out of your mind. But for the most part, we were very, very sheltered from the amount of media that was there. And that was a lot of the scrutiny that we received from the court of had we been exposed to things, had we seen people filming? Had we watched TV?
So those things, we knew that they were there, but we just didn`t worry about them. It was something that we didn`t know.
PINSKY: Diane, thank you so much. We will stay in touch with you.
And next up, a new trial is just weeks away. Jodi supporters are preparing for battle and who are these folks? We`ll find out.
Later, what is going on with Amanda Bynes? "Showbiz Tonight`s" A.J. Hammer will be here with the latest on her bizarre behavior.
Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONAVAN BERING, JODI ARIAS FAMILY FRIEND: Jodi`s a very intelligent, very artistic, very compassionate. I mean, she`s got so many dreams and compassionate and it all involves helping people. That she has so much to offer. And that if she could have a chance I think she would just do amazing things.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Well, there`s a Jodi supporter and before Jenny, my co-host - - of course, she`s back with me, Jenny Hutt.
And before I go on to talk about Donavan, I want to share a Twitter with the audience. It`s from I guess this is a viewer. His name is @markeiglarsh. It`s a retweet from Fanny Crosby, are you sick? You sound stuff. Drew, fix him up please?
And then Mark goes on to say, I spent the entire weekend in bed and or in a tissue.
It couldn`t be my Mark Eiglarsh, because my Mark Eiglarsh is on live television. Are you OK, Mark?
EIGLARSH: Ay yi yi.
I`m wonderful. The show must go on. Let`s talk about Donavan.
PINSKY: We appreciate you being here.
So, Donavan bearing is the manager of Jodi`s Twitter account. She`s the woman you saw on that footage look at. She is also on probation and now, there`s an investigation whether she had violated that probation by having had contact with a convicted felon, namely, Jodi.
Donavan strongly denied she`s done anything wrong. My question, though, I`ll start with Robi -- no. I`m going to start with Cheryl. I`m sorry. Cheryl, you were trying to talk in the last segment and I couldn`t get to you.
ARUTT: It`s OK.
PINSKY: What kind of person are we going to hear from tonight? What kind of person gets attracted to a murderer?
ARUTT: Somebody who is looking for attention by association. There is -- there is a personality that wants to kind of piggyback on somebody else`s either fame or notoriety. Fame is a really funny kind of thing. People get drawn to it. We want to build it up and then smash it down again. And this is the kind of person I think who really feels like she can be the special one who can get close to this very famous notorious person.
She can be the one who`s confided in, the one who gives access, the one who gives voice. And there`s this wish, I think, this idealization -- I mean, when we`re listening, don`t you kind of think, are we talking about the same person here? I mean, what? Is this Mother Teresa, or is this Arias we`re talking about?
I think she just kind of wants to feel like she can have this special knowledge and makes her then special by being close to her.
PINSKY: Robi, Cheryl used the word special about a dozen times and I agree with her. It is seeing something special in that notorious person so you can bask in the narcissistic glow we call it. Yes?
LUDWIG: Well, I`m in agreement with Cheryl. I also wonder if Donavan is attracted romantically to Jodi and looking at her, and that also contributes to this idealized version of how she sees Jodi Arias as the next Mother Teresa.
And also, I wonder if Donavan sees herself as an outsider like Jodi Arias. And so, she`s bonded. We`re really the same. We`re misunderstood by the public which is victimizing victims.
PINSKY: Oh boy.
LUDWIG: And then the other piece is, you know, some people like being around murderers because it`s cathartic. They would never murder themselves, but they like -- it almost gives expression to their own murderous impulses.
PINSKY: Jenny, I see you`re jumping out of your skin. But, listen, Robi and Cheryl gave a very nice frame. I think they`re absolutely right on the money here. Go ahead.
HUTT: Yes. I wanted to just add to what Robi was saying. I don`t know that for sure it`s a romantic attraction but I feel like she`s enchanted by Jodi and I think my issue is, if Donavan would just say I`m enchanted by Jodi and therefore I like her, I`d be much more comfortable with that, rather than hearing her say she`s a do-gooder. She wants to help. You guys are making it. She`s super compassionate.
Call it what she is. She drank her Kool-Aid in theory.
PINSKY: Mark --
LUDWIG: She is not aware of it. She is not aware of it, though, Jenny, I think.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Robi.
LUDWIG: Yes. No. I was just going to say, yes, these people are kind of odd and I`m aware of myself an my attraction and maybe that`s altering how I see Jodi. They`re not that insightful.
ARUTT: Robi is right. It`s not conscious.
PINSKY: Now, Mark, you are here to protect me during this episode, both from the callers and from the social media that reins in to make sure I don`t misstep. So, I know you`re sick, but I appreciate you being here, OK?
EIGLARSH: Yes. This is something we should have worked out before the show. I`m supposed to defend you on this. Really?
PINSKY: I`m just saying.
Let`s go to calls. Here are now is Michelle in Arizona.
MICHELLE, CALLER FROM ARIZONA: Hi, Dr. Drew. I`m just calling because I think that Jodi deserves an appeal. I think that the comments that I have read from the jurors have really shocked me. There`s been a lot of Twitter comments, Facebook comments and it just seemed like they were biased from the beginning.
I read some comments about them saying that they thought she was guilty after opening arguments. And to me that just really makes me feel uncomfortable. And I`m for justice.
PINSKY: OK. Fair enough. So this is -- there`s somebody with an intellectual sort of cognitive with the way the system functioned.
Jamie in Texas, Jamie?
JAIMIE, TEXAS: Hi, Dr. Drew. I support Jodi because I feel that I am Jodi Arias in a sense. I didn`t kill anyone due to my fear of getting the death penalty or life in prison, but I was with a loser for ten years who did what Travis did and more and worse. And, I feel that Travis should have took the responsibility to step back seeing (ph) that Jodi was more attracted to him than what he was willing to put in.
He should have (INAUDIBLE) regardless of what he`s looking for, let me stead back and break it off. So, he led her on in a way.
PINSKY: OK. Robi, there`s that sort of identification you were talking about, right?
ROBI LUDWIG, PSY.D., PSYCHOTHERAPIST: That`s right. And also, just in Travis` defense, he did try to get rid of her.
PINSKY: Yes, he did.
LUDWIG: But it didn`t work. But yes, we`re seeing these women who identify with Jodi as being victimized or rejected and feeling that men are bad or men are deserving of this because they behave badly. Not that they would act this way themselves, but they like seeing it played out when somebody else does it.
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: And Drew --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Mark.
EIGLARSH: And every one of these people who call in that I cannot relate to, I can`t understand their thoughts, but every one of them has the ability to serve on any potential jury for which they`re called. And when you wonder how come there`s no slam dunks in the justice system, it`s because everyone is randomly called and can have their own as crazy as they want thought processes that can guide their verdicts.
PINSKY: Cheryl, would you screen these people out of a jury box?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., @CHERYLARUTT: Well, in the process where you ask, and voir dire, you really -- you have only so many preemptory challenges, right, Mark? You can only kind of get people out of there for no reason.
ARUTT: Then you got to come up with a reason to get people out. You know, I think you need to look out for people who are going to over identify with a victim, but it is as Mark`s saying, it`s really, really hard to know how it`s going to go, and sometimes, people who seem to be one way get really turned around and are very suggestible as they go through the process of hearing the trial. So --
PINSKY: Let`s get another call. Linda in Texas -- Linda.
LINDA, TEXAS: Hi, Dr. Drew. I think Travis was a womanizer made out to be a saint. He hid behind his religion and treated Jodi like trash. They had a twisted, obsessive relationship, and Jodi is not the evil entity the media and shows have made her out to be. This whole trial has been nothing but a modern-day witch hunt.
PINSKY: And yet, Jenny, I see you wanted to ring in here, Jenny, but Jenny, the most of the women who actually were victims of domestic violence are very offended by Jodi.
JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: Right. Well, yes, of course, Dr. Drew. I mean, you and I have had this conversation off air about a guy being a guy and the guy being in it because he likes the sex and people have sex. I don`t think that Travis was twisted. I think that`s the wrong picture that was painted, in fact. That`s my opinion, respectfully.
PINSKY: Thank you, guys. Next up, a wife and a mother is charged with murder of her husband. Another Jodi Arias situation?
And later, something is wrong with poor Amanda Bynes. Behavior bureau tries to figure out what it is.
PINSKY (voice-over): A husband and father is shot and killed outside his children`s day care center in 2010. A man is arrested, tried, and convicted of the crime. He happens to be the wife`s boss and alleged lover. Now, that woman, the widow, is on trial for planning and plotting to get rid of the man who allegedly stood in the way of this illicit affair.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This case is also about one really bad woman.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I couldn`t believe it. It wasn`t even possible. I thought I was being stupid.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Andrea Sneiderman (ph), master manipulator.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whose boss kills someone else`s husband?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Andrea Sneiderman (ph) is playing each one of us for a damn fool.
PINSKY: Is Andrea Sneiderman (ph) the next Jodi Arias or just a mom who`s been for a murder?
PINSKY (on-camera): Andrea Sneiderman (ph) is charged with malicious murder and felony murder, I believe. Her trial is set to begin in Atlanta on July 29th. Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Stay with me, guys. This is an interesting case and difficult case to get our head around.
Attorney Mark Eiglarsh, psychotherapist Robi Ludwig, and Attorney Loni Coombs joins us to discuss this. Jenny, help the viewers lay this thing out. What do we have here?
HUTT: OK. What we have here is supposedly the wife was having an affair with a man, and she wanted to get her husband out of the picture. And so, instead of thinking, hey, maybe divorce, she thought, I`ll have him killed by my lover. Now, how this is a rational decision, Dr. Drew, I just don`t know.
PINSKY: Well -- but we don`t know that she part (ph) colluded in that, right, Mark?
HUTT: Oh, I think she did.
PINSKY: Well --
EIGLARSH: Well, Jenny`s not going to be on the jury, thank God, because she`s already made up her mind.
EIGLARSH: OK. We don`t know exactly what happened. We know that the lover, Hemi Newman (ph), was convicted and what he argued was, she didn`t tell me to kill the -- Rusty Sneiderman (ph), the victim. Barry White (ph) did. Olivia Newton-John (ph) saying that to me. He argued literally that.
He said mental illness caused him to do this, and prosecutors say no, no, no. You two were romantic. You were kissing, you were groping, you were dancing. We have evidence of all that in spite of her saying it was plutonic, working relationship.
PINSKY: Now, she testified in the trial of the boss who was actually convicted. Watch as the prosecutor tries to get a straight answer from her. This is where people have a problem with this woman. Watch how evasive she is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did rusty say?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said, someone was just on the side of the house and he was sort of not completely coherent but said someone was, like, sleeping on the side of the house and he called the police and he was -- oh, then he had to go really quickly to talk to the police and then he ended up calling me back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said that Rusty called you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And as soon as rusty ended that call or you ended the call, who did you call?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have no idea. I was at work so I was presumably doing work things.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any idea why you would call (ph) the defendant after talking to Rusty?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m sure it was -- no. I`m sure it was work related.
PINSKY: Loni, she lies, but what`s the problem with the defense, the boyfriend who says he was psychotic, was psychotic, and they also happened to be romantically involved?
LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: Yes. It`s very interesting strategy the prosecution did in this case. They didn`t charge them both at the same time. They tried the boyfriend first, then he came up with a mental illness defense which was interesting. Now, they`re charging her. And in his trial, she took the stand and she gave all these statements, they say, are perjury, essentially, denying any relationship with this guy. She also has some other evidence against her. They told her at the time that her husband was killed that was an accident.
But somehow, she knew fairly quickly that he had been shot. So, how could she have known that? And also, people always like to know about the money. There were two life insurance policies worth $2 million where she was the beneficiary. So, these are some of the things that prosecutors really going to be hitting home in addition to some evidence that they said where she tried to delete or hide or cover up some texts and phone messages that she had with the killer.
PINSKY: Robi, this is why your grandmother tells you not to get stuck in weird entanglements and not to cheat on your boyfriend or your spouse because horrible things can happen. I don`t have a problem with the notion that the boyfriend was involved and became bipolar, became manic, became crazy and killed the husband to get him out of the way. That`s a bipolar maneuver.
LUDWIG: It`s very possible, but what we do know about many women who end up killing their husbands because of their physical size, it`s not uncommon for them to get somebody else, an accomplice, to kill on their behalf. So, she does fit into that profile, but you`re right. At this point, it`s a big question mark. She does appear bizarre.
It`s possible with -- if she did have an affair, she told this boyfriend she liked the idea of having a dead husband. And he acted on that, on his own. But at this point, we really don`t have all the information, so it`s a lot of guess work.
PINSKY: Jenny, it`s why you don`t get into crazy entanglements. Your life is crazy then.
HUTT: Yes, that`s the reason why, Dr. Drew. Yes. I mean, the whole -- these are crazy -- these are crazy people. I mean, I wouldn`t get involved because I`m choosing to stay in my marriage. But, people get involved all the time in extramarital -- extracurricular activities, but they don`t kill people because of it. That`s the part that`s so crazy.
PINSKY: Well, again, you said it right there. Robi and I were speculating that maybe the guy that killed was crazy and maybe she was just making bad choices.
Up next, should someone take away Amanda Bynes -- speaking of crazy -- take away her Twitter privileges after this? We`ll talk about it.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: All right. Coming up, top of the hour, "HLN After Dark." We are going to take a look at the evidence in the George Zimmerman-Trayvon Martin case. We`re going to show it to our jurors before the jury down in Seminole County, Florida, sees it and see what they think about it because what they think may be exactly what the jurors in the George Zimmerman case think about it. That`s coming up. Top of the hour. "HLN After Dark."
A.J. HAMMER, SHOWBIZ TONIGHT HOST: Ever been to jail?
AMANDA BYNES, ACTRESS: No. Not yet.
HAMMER: No rehab. Amanda Bynes, what kind of a starlet are you?
BYNES: I know. What`s wrong with me? I don`t know. It`s shocking how it`s become popular to go to rehab, right? It`s very odd.
HAMMER: You must deal with a lot of the same pressures that somebody like Lindsay Lohan does. And you two are the same age. Britney Spears has a lot of pressure as well and all these stars that we do see getting into trouble.
BYNES: I`m not interested in that. The club -- you know, the club scene and drinking doesn`t appeal to me. So, it`s actually easier for me not to do it. I have no problem. I`ve never even been offered drugs. Birds of a feather flock together and I definitely don`t fly with that crowd.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Troubled actress, Amanda Bynes, was arrested last week in a New York City -- when New York City police broke in after she apparently threw a bong out of her apartment window. She had a number of run-ins with the laws. She`s had DUI, she`s been acting strangely. People have been concerned.
Here`s Amanda in court earlier this week and compare what we see here, Jenny, with what A.J. had a few years ago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you live here in Manhattan?
BYNES: I do, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Planning on staying here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you get arrested again, if you commit new crimes, if you fail to come to court, even if you come to court late, bail is going to be set and it`s going to be high bail (INAUDIBLE). Is that completely clear?
PINSKY: So, what`s going on with her? Back with us to discuss, Samantha Schacher and Cheryl Arutt and joining us is A.J. Hammer, host of "Showbiz Tonight," seen here on HLN at 11:00 eastern and 8:00 pacific. A.J., you and I have discussed this on "Showbiz." What are your thoughts and what are the latest stories with Amanda?
HAMMER: Well, the latest with her right now, Dr. Drew, is that her California lawyer, the guy who`s trying to resolve her pending DUI case out there says she`s completely fine and normal. And as far as the charges against her in New York related to that bong that she allegedly threw out of her apartment window, he sculpted (ph) that. He said there`s no evidence there and a lot of people are actually betting that whole thing is going to get thrown out.
Meanwhile, Twitter has been like Amanda`s best friend. She`s on it all the time. She`s proclaiming her innocence on it. She had said that the NYPD, an officer from the NYPD had sexually assaulted her when she was recently arrested. She`s backed off of that. The NYPD has refuted that. They investigated it. There`s no evidence there.
So, Amanda has gone on Twitter and said, well, I`m not going to be filing charges there, but I`m suing everybody is essentially what she`s been saying and she`s been tweeting vitriol at quite a few people, other celebrities, on Twitter. Her latest target, model, Chrissy Teigen, who was taking issue with Amanda`s behavior. And just to sort of paraphrase what Amanda tweeted to Chrissy.
She said, "You`re not a pretty model compared to me. I don`t look up to you beauty-wise." And Dr. Drew, I see that. And I look back at this interview that you just showed and I am astonished that this is even the same person.
PINSKY: Look at the pictures of her today versus the interview with you then and it`s obvious that the attorney does not understand there`s something terribly wrong. Samantha, you followed her closely. When do you think the problem started?
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I would have to say we recognized it. We`ve been reporting it on my show, "Pop Trigger," for about over a year. And it`s been this downward spiral since then. And it`s shocking. It`s shocking because like we saw in the interview with A.J., she has been known in Hollywood to have a reputation of being professional, talented, witty, grounded.
And now -- and also, going off of A.J.`s point, I do want to point out what he stated about Twitter. Yes, she has turned to her Twitter to talk to all of her supporters, and I do this because I want to use that term loosely, because clearly, these supporters don`t actually have her best interest at heart because these people, Dr. Drew, it`s unbelievable. They are absolutely going on, and they`re saying that they celebrate her, they commend her.
They think that she`s great. They think that she`s hilarious. It`s unbelievable to me when this is a sick human being. They`re either laughing at her or they`re laughing with her. And it`s such a shame. Such a shame.
PINSKY: Thank you, guys. We`re going to pull together as behavior bureau next and talk more about Amanda. Be right back.
PINSKY: The behavior bureau is back so as my co-host, Jenny Hutt. And by the way, I misspoke, "Showbiz Tonight" airs on HLN at 11:00 eastern and pacific time. We`re talking about troubled actress, Amanda Bynes. And I`ll start with you, Robi. What do you make of this? What do you think is going on and shouldn`t we all be deeply concerned about this young lady?
LUDWIG: Yes. I mean, I wonder if she`s decompensating and suffering from a mental illness. And I`ve heard reports and I can`t state whether they`re true or not that her parents have concerns, that she`s schizophrenic and that there are some reports that she`s behaving in ways that are in sync with people who might be suffering from schizophrenia.
So, I just wish her the best and hope she gets treatment if, in fact, she needs it. But it looks like a girl who`s really having trouble.
PINSKY: Yes. And Cheryl, I agree. It`s something where we really have to say our prayers for her and hope that she gets the help, the parents get a conservatorship over so they can get the help she needs. I don`t see substances here, Cheryl. Do you?
ARUTT: Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: So much.
ARUTT: I`m so worried about this girl. This level of acting out and the bizarre appearance and all of that, it could really be something very, very wrong. And Samantha made a point earlier about the entourages who love to kind of enable and tear down celebrity. I know you wrote a book about celebrity narcissism and you`re an expert in this.
What do you think happens when someone is in a position like this and they need someone to tell them what they need to hear rather than what they want to hear.
PINSKY: And this is the big problem with celebrities. It`s not that they get sicker than the rest of us. They run out of control to a much higher degree because they don`t have somebody to contain them. They reject their family. They have yes people around them, and now, Twitter is just another buffer of yes people. A.J., do you agree with that?
HAMMER: Oh, there`s no question about that, and she really should be laying low right now and getting all kinds of help, and you and I have reflected about Britney Spears and the path that she went on after the conservatorship over her was taken. It`s done nothing but good for her. Look at her now. But I know, Dr. Drew, how difficult a conservatorship is to put in motion if somebody`s not deemed a menace to themselves or society.
Do you think that it is even possible that that could happen and will that absolutely help her if it does?
PINSKY: Well, it will absolutely help her if it does. That`s for sure. Assuming what we`re speculating here on the panel is the case, but the fact is, now, she has an attorney saying that she`s fine. So, he`s going to prevent -- I`ve had this happen many times people die because of that nonsense. Listen, we got to pray that she gets the help she needs. Thank you to the panel. Thank you to everyone. Last call is up next.
PINSKY: Jenny, thank you so much for joining me this week. It is the last call. I appreciate all your help. You`ve done a great job. I want everyone to be sure to tune in tomorrow for a special, we`re calling, "Stalked," a DR. DREW ON CALL special. And Jenny, I know you`ll be tuned in. We`re going to bring Michelle Ward in here who`s an expert in stalking. It`s 9:00 eastern.
And we`re going to get deeply into the stalking phenomenon and how Jodi fits into the stalking spectrum. Thank you, everyone tonight. Thank you all for watching. "HLN After Dark" starts right now.