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Interview with Fawaz Gerges; Suspect in London Knifing in Court Today; Peru, the Next Big Thing; Bourdain Goes to Peru; Getting Into The Olympics

Aired May 30, 2013 - 12:30   ET


MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: Is the damage done, the sectarian divides so deep now and so bitter that even if the fighting stopped tomorrow. it'd be too late for a cohesive nation with a central government?

What do you think?

FAWAZ GERGES, DIRECTOR, MIDDLE EAST CENTRE, LONDON SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS: You know, Michael, this is really, I mean, the real danger.

The real danger is not just -- it's not longer President Assad, whether he stays or go. I think it's a matter of time. 2014, I believe he will go. That's what Russia and the United States are working on, the end of his term.

The danger is multiple fault lines have emerged in Syria, sectarian, ideological. Syria is being destroyed systemically. Hundreds of thousands have been killed. The social fabric, it's a very diverse society.

Not only Syria itself, the conflict has spread into neighboring Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Turkey.

And the reason why the Obama administration is reluctant to intervene militarily, the United States and Russia now are concerned about a region-wide conflict, and that's why they have intensified their diplomacy to rescue Syria from really all-out destruction and also rescue the entire region from a region-wide conflict where American and international peace and security are really at stake.

HOLMES: Always great to get your thoughts, Fawaz, thanks so much. Fawaz Gerges there at the London School of Economics, and very good points that he raises.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN ANCHOR: Yeah, it's going to be fascinating whether or not really that peace talk, that summit that they're hoping to hold in the months to come, will even come to fruition in light of everything that's taking place.

HOLMES: A lot of people think it won't because now the opposition's saying they won't go if Assad's even involved in any way. And the Russians saying, well, if you say that, then it's not going to work.

It's a little bit -- and the whole arming issue is becoming a real talking point, too. Once you send those arms in, as we said, arming one side of a conflict can have consequences way down the line, way down the line.

We armed the Taliban, remember, when they were fighting the Russians.

MALVEAUX: And there is no control. There is no control over who gets those arms. We've seen different factions of those rebels even turning on civilians themselves.

HOLMES: Exactly.

MALVEAUX: Yeah, atrocities on both sides.


MALVEAUX: Wrestling was removed from the Olympic games.

HOLMES: Ridiculous, wasn't it? It was.

MALVEAUX: Wait a minute. It's got a fighting chance to come back in 2020. We're going to tell you why.

HOLMES: Also, it is said to make the best chocolate in the world. The only thing is, it is very rare.

Coming up, we're going to talk to that man there. Anthony Bourdain is back to talk about his search for wild coca in Peru. Stick around.


MALVEAUX: In London today, one of the men who police say killed a British soldier in broad daylight made his first court appearance.

HOLMES: Yeah, he's the guy you've probably seen on video, the one holding a knife, not the guy with the hatchet, near the body of the soldier that he and another man allegedly killed.

This Michael Adebowale who arrived at the Westminster's magistrate court earlier today. He's in that van there, full police escort, formally charged with several charges, but of course the main one, murder.

MALVEAUX: No cameras were allowed inside the courtroom, so we've got, of course, courtroom sketches.

A CNN producer was there, says the suspect was handcuffed and spoke only to confirm his name, where he lived and had that he was aware of the charges.

Want to go live to London, our Frederik Pleitgen here. Fred, murder just one of the charges against this man. What are the others?


Yeah, murder is of course the main charge against this man, the murder of the soldier, Lee Rigby. The other is illegal possession of a firearm because, when he and the other suspect were arrested at the scene of the crime, he was carrying a Dutch-made revolver. So that's also part of the charges that were levied against him today.

And you're absolutely right. This isn't the man who spoke on the video that we've seen so many times. It is the other one, the younger of the two suspects, the 22-year-old.

And it really was quite significant as well that he was handcuffed because that's not something that's usually done in courts in England unless the suspect is considered a security risk, and that clearly was the case in this particular one.

One of the interesting things about the man as well is, when he went into the courtroom, he truly had trouble moving. So we have to keep in mind as well that, when the two suspects were arrested, they were shot by police.

And he was just released from hospital a couple of days ago. That's when the police began to question him, and the investigation is also still ongoing.

So this was the first day in court. And on that first day, it was referred to a different court, the central criminal court here in London where the proceedings are then going to go on, Suzanne.

HOLMES: All right. Fred, thanks so much. Frederik Pleitgen there, covering court proceedings for us out of London.

Of course, the video we showed was the other guy.

MALVEAUX: The other guy, not the guy who ...

HOLMES: Yeah, the guy who's in court today. He was the one the cub scout leader was talking to.


We're also following this story. He was a friend of one of the Boston bombing suspects. He was shot dead by an FBI agent. That happened just last week.

Well, now his father is demanding that the FBI actually face trial over his death.

HOLMES: Yeah, there's been developments, and this is it, a news conference in Moscow, and that's where Ibragim Todashev's father demanded justice for his son.

Now his plea follows reports that Todashev was unarmed when he was shot. The Chechen immigrant was linked to the accused Boston bomber, Tamerlan Tsarnaev.

Now listen to what his father told reporters today, and he had photographs with him, too.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ABDULBAKI TODASHEV, SON SHOT BY FBI AGENT (via translator): I have 16 photos here. I would like to say in advance -- I think you can see it from the pictures.

It's like in the movies. I only saw things like that in the movies when they shoot a person and then make a final shot in the head. There were six shots into the body and one shot in the head.


HOLMES: He claims he was shot six times and he wants an investigation into that.

All right. We're going to take a short break. We'll be right back.



ANTHONY BOURDAIN, HOST, "ANTHONY BOURDAIN PARTS UNKNOWN": The one thing you need to know about Peru is it's big, that there's ocean and mountains, Amazon.

Peru, you think Machu Picchu, and don't they eat hamsters there?

For a long time now we've been hearing in the States that Peruvian cuisine was going to be the next big thing.

Chocolate, going to say that chocolate is the perfect stocking stuffer, Mother's Day gift, Valentine's Day gift and, before chocolate hit Europe, this is what the Aztec kings would drink.

It's always fun to travel with Eric.


BOURDAIN: You know, the best thing about this whole trip was that Eric was identified as me in the newspaper. Could prove useful.


I was fascinated by the display of pre-Colombian erotica at the museum.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, I should have known that.

BOURDAIN: I guess there really is nothing new under the sun. Think you invented something and, nope, Peru still manages to amaze.


MALVEAUX: All right. There he is, our favorite traveler, Anthony Bourdain, fresh from his trip in Peru where he shot this weekend's "Parts Unknown."

So, great to see you, Anthony. Want to get to the guinea pig question here. Did you or did you not eat what I guess the call cui in Peru?

BOURDAIN: Cui, yeah.


BOURDAIN: And, yeah, it's like a small -- tastes like pork only smaller.

HOLMES: At least you didn't say taste like chicken.

MALVEAUX: What was that like?

BOURDAIN: You know, once you get over the fact that it's small and kind of cute, it's like any other kind of meat, and in fact a possible, you know -- it could help the world hunger situation.

They breed like crazy, you can keep them everywhere and they are quite delicious.

HOLMES: Yeah, a good point actually.

OK, why Peru? We always ask you why you went. What attracted you here?

BOURDAIN: Well, there's -- you don't need a good reason to go to Peru. It's an emerging cutting-edge culinary destination filled with all sorts of ingredients and flavors and techniques that are largely unfamiliar to much of the rest of the world.

Chefs have been familiar with it for a long time, but I went back for my second time because I recently got into the high-end chocolate business a while back with my friend, Eric Ripert, and I wanted to find out, where does chocolate come from? Why is it so expensive?

We all love it. We claim we feel guilty eating it. It's an important part of our lives, but I didn't know really who gets paid and how much do they get paid out of each chocolate bar sold, how is it produced, where is it produced, who produces it? What is this chocolate stuff? Let's find out.

HOLMES: Yeah, that whole fair trade issue.

MALVEAUX: Yeah, we love the trek for chocolate, of course. But also want to talk a little bit about you went deep into the Andes and I believe you had this cleansing, if you will.

How is your aura after this shaman cleanse of yours?

BOURDAIN: Well, I'm not a spiritual guy, to say the least, but Eric definitely believes in a higher power.

So as a means of blessing our crop and having a productive year of what is a very limited, very rare, wild form of cacao, we thought it best to see a traditional shaman and get our auras in order.

HOLMES: Very briefly, favorite dish? BOURDAIN: Favorite dish in Peru?


BOURDAIN: Anticuchos, it's street meat on a stick. Can't beat it.

HOLMES: All right. Well, we know now.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN ANCHOR: All right, looking forward to it.

HOLMES: It is our favorite show, isn't it?

MALVEAUX: I love it.

HOLMES: We love it, yes.

MALVEAUX: All right.

BOURDAIN: Thank you.

HOLMES: Yes, it's good (INAUDIBLE).

MALVEAUX: Good to see you.

HOLMES: Good to see you, Anthony. We'll talk to you next week.


MALVEAUX: "Parts Unknown: Peru" airing on CNN Sunday at 9:00 p.m. Eastern.

HOLMES: Really, don't miss it. It's terrific.

All right, well, wrestling, as you know I objected to this, removed from the Olympic games. I don't even love wrestling, but it's an original sport.

MALVEAUX: All right, but it's still, Michael -


MALVEAUX: It's got a fighting chance. 2020, it might come back. You might see that here. We're going to explain after the break.


MALVEAUX: All right, well, we've all been waiting for it. The short list is in. Olympic officials narrowing down the list. This is from eight to three. These are sports that might get into the Olympics. This is in 2020.

HOLMES: Yes. It's always interesting when they do this. Wrestling, baseball, softball and squash are all one step closer. Dave Zirin from "The Nation Magazine" and is here to break it down for us.


HOLMES: You know, wrestling emerged as the sort of hands down winner in yesterday's vote. Some on the Olympic committee don't think wrestling is a sport that can make money. But isn't it more than about whether it's a sport that can make money? This is the thing I've been driving Suzanne nuts with. I mean, how did it ever disappear? It was an original sport. Are you hearing us?

MALVEAUX: Oh, he can't hear us. We're going to have to go back to him.

HOLMES: Oh, no. Well, that was a long question that got us nowhere, wasn't it? Well --

MALVEAUX: We'll go back. We'll go back. We'll get him back.

HOLMES: David Zirin there. We'll toss to break and come back.

MALVEAUX: All right. Take a quick break.


HOLMES: OK. Welcome back now for our weekly look at education around the world. Now, in some countries, a lack of transportation makes it hard to get to school.

MALVEAUX: That is true in the mountains of Peru as well. But one girl wants an education so badly that she is rising up to the challenge. Watch.


EULALIA (through translator): My name is Eulalia. I have six brothers and sisters. Where I live, there are no schools. Every Monday we ride a motorcycle to go to my school. When my dad is not home, I walk to school. It takes two hours.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I want to help Eulalia go to school because I want her to have a better education than mine.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I like math, especially multiplying. During the week, I sleep in the school dorms. For me, it's difficult to be far from my parents. When I'm with my classmates, they make me smile. On Saturday and Sunday, when I'm at home, I do my homework with my mother.

MARUJA, EULALIA'S MOTHER: She teaches me addition, subtraction, things like that. I can't read very well either, so she shows me how to read.

EULALIA: I want to be a teacher.



MALVEAUX: Short list, it's in.

HOLMES: Yes. Returning to that.

MALVEAUX: Yes. So we're going to get back to our reporter on that. Olympic officials say they have now narrowed down this list from eight to three for sports that might get into the Olympics, this is for 2020.

HOLMES: Yes, we're talking wrestling, baseball/softball, that's one together, and squash, all one step closer. Dave Zirin from "The Nation Magazine" and

We put a quarter in the machine and you can hear us now, which is good. You reckon wrestling's going to get back in. A lot of people say it's not the economic sort of powerhouse sport, but it is tradition.

DAVE ZIRIN, THE NATION MAGAZINE: Yes, it will get back in. You're talking about a sport that's been part of the Olympics since over 700 B.C. In the last Olympics, 71 countries participated, winning 29 medals. Other than running, it is by far the most inclusive sport, something that unites countries, both in the global north and global south, wealthy, poor, Islamic, Christian, what have you, all countries participate. And that's what's created this very interesting alliance where you have Iran, the United States and Russia all teaming up to make a case to the International Olympic Committee to save wrestling at the Olympics.

MALVEAUX: All right. So, Dave, why didn't these sports make it? You have five of the eight that didn't get in. So you're talking about karate, rock climbing, wakeboarding, I'm not sure what wakeboarding is, roller sports and -

ZIRIN: Wushu.

MALVEAUX: Tell us - wushu. What's wushu?

ZIRIN: Wushu is a form of martial arts. There already is judo. I think that's why wushu and karate didn't make it.

Look, you're always going to have these kinds of exhibition sports. And let me tell you, it is very humbling for people in the wrestling community to have to compete against wushu, baseball, softball, squash for a place at the Olympics considering they've been part of every modern Olympics since 1896.

But the people I've been talking to in the international wrestling community actually are welcoming the fact that the International Olympic Committee gave them a slap on the wrist. There have been people for decades who have been talking about that wrestling needs to modernize, that it needs to become more television friendly, it needs to reward offense more. And they have been presenting to the IOC a list of reforms that they think will get it back into the Olympic driver's seat.

HOLMES: And there is the final vote is going to be in September for the sport that gets in. What sort of lobbying is going on now between now and then? ZIRIN: Well, some people you might have heard of are doing lobbying, like Vladimir Putin. I mean, we're talking about the big guns are coming out here to go to the IOC and say save wrestling. It's a sport that is not that popular in western Europe, which dominates the International Olympic Committee. But in Iran, to be a wrestler is like being a rock star. Our own wrestlers when they visit Iran say that they felt like Elvis in the 1950s. And so it's the kind of sport where they are going to bring the international fandom that does exist for wrestling right into the face of the IOC and say, please, do not eliminate this from competition.

HOLMES: Yes. Dave -


HOLMES: Yes, good to talk to you, Dave. Dave Zirin there from "The Nation Magazine" and Good to talk to you.

MALVEAUX: I've never seen wushu before.

HOLMES: I've never heard of it. It sounds delicious.

MALVEAUX: I'm a blue belt in taekwondo but I've never seen wushu.

HOLMES: That should be something that's on Anthony Bourdain's show. I - squash is another one. The thing with wrestling, it should never have gone. It should always be part of the Olympics. Squash has got a good -- that's a good world -- not here. It's not huge here.

MALVEAUX: I watch gymnastics. That's my thing. Yes, that will never go away.

HOLMES: Well, that's -- that will never go away.

MALVEAUX: No. (INAUDIBLE) my gymnastics.


MALVEAUX: All right, this is something that you don't see every day. Look closely. This is an ostrich running around the streets of China.

HOLMES: Yes, extraordinary stuff. Nobody even knows where this guy came from, but it appeared during rush hour. And you can see it knocks down a motorcycle. Two cars actually did hit it. But it gets up and it runs away.

MALVEAUX: Eventually, the ostrich was captured. Now in a zoo for its recovery.

HOLMES: See, it gets hit there, but then watch, it stands up -

MALVEAUX: Yes, he recovers well.

HOLMES: Yes, and off he goes and they've got him in a family zoo now so he --


HOLMES: Happy as an ostrich in China.

MALVEAUX: And we are also watching this. Spain's economy has been hit pretty hard. But Bon Jovi wants the Spanish to have a little faith.


BON JOVI, MUSICIAN (singing): Start a fire. It only takes a spark. You got to get behind the wheel if you're ever going to drive that car.


MALVEAUX: Hear that.

HOLMES: Yes, that is a great story because that there was a song from his new album. Bon Jovi holding a concert in Madrid next month. And what happened because of the economic crisis there, he wanted people to be able to afford to go.

MALVEAUX: So the band actually waived the performance fee, cutting it to help lower the ticket prices. So tickets for the sold out June 27th show actually cost about half of the usual price.

HOLMES: That was nice of them.

MALVEAUX: Yes, they were big in the '80s.


MALVEAUX: Like in the '80s.

HOLMES: Oh, they're huge. Yes, great stuff. Great stuff.

MALVEAUX: Good deal.

HOLMES: All right, thanks for watching AROUND THE WORLD. That will do it for me. I'll see you tomorrow.

MALVEAUX: All right. You got it.

HOLMES: You carry on.