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New Jodi Hearing & Trial Coming Soon
Aired June 3, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Jodi`s jury watches video of her for the first time. Would this have changed their minds about her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My wife, she`s got a sixth sense about things. And she says oh, my gosh. She`s out there.
PINSKY: What if they`d seen it during the trial?
Then, a wife is dead just days after she files for divorce.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s a fire. And my wife is, she shot herself, but she`s in the fire. There`s smoke everywhere.
PINSKY: The husband called 911. So why is he on trial for murder?
The behavior bureau has something to say about that.
Plus, America behind bars. I speak to teen mom Amber Portwood in jail.
And, was Michael Douglas` cancer caused by oral sex?
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening.
My co-host this week is Michelle Ward, clinical psychologist and host of "Stalked" on Investigation Discovery.
And coming up, everybody, we have Tara and Diane. The jurors, the Jodi Arias jurors are back with us. They will react to video that they have never seen and stories they`ve never heard and we`ll ask them if this would have changed their position or swayed the jury in their opinion.
But first up, with Jodi`s second death penalty trial just weeks away, what enough information will factor in?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED MURDERER: Samantha said Travis was the glue to their family. Travis called me. He was really upset. He said his grandmother was ill and frail and that he didn`t know she was going to make, because she was the glue to their family.
In many ways, my family has also suffered.
I missed high family. I moved away shortly after high school. And I`d come back to visit. And I realized over the years, Id missed out on a lot of things, my little brother and sister.
Their pain is fresh because they only learn about it two weeks ago, the moment the verdict was read.
My dad who`s here today was in California. Awaiting anxiously in front of the TV.
When I was 11 years old (INAUDIBLE) I apologize. When I was 11 years old, my little sister Angela was born.
I won`t be at my sister`s wedding, when she ties the knot next year. My brother, the boy I grew up with became a family man.
I can`t in good conscience ask you to sentence me to death because of them.
JENNIFER WILLMOTT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You don`t have any evidence of recurrent physical fights, do you?
WITNESS: No, just not recurrent physical fights, just the time that she had kicked her mom.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
PINSKY: Michelle, you`re an expert in psychopathy. And here is somebody we speculated as a psychopath, acting -- presenting the story that she would think would make somebody sympathetic, not how she was actually feeling, right?
MICHELLE WARD, CO-HOST: I feel like she was presenting it for somebody else, like he was reading the script for somebody else, but her affect -- the way she presented herself, it didn`t look like her emotions matched what she was saying. It`s so disconcerting to watch because here she is fighting for her life, and she`s just it`s -- like she`s totally disconnected.
PINSKY: But she`s talking about a thing -- she`s learned enough to know that people are emotional about their family.
WARD: She knows it`s supposed to work.
PINSKY: Supposed to work. There we go.
Joining us now is investigative journalist and author of the forthcoming Jodi Arias book, "Picture Perfect", Shanna Hogan.
Shanna, what are the sources telling you about Travis` family and the next round?
SHANNA HOGAN, AUTHOR (via telephone): Yes. Thank you so much, Dr. Drew.
In Arizona, as you may know, as well as many other states, the family gets a say in the matters, including whether or not to settle or take a plea, and the family in this case, according to my sources, definitely wants to go ahead and trying to get the death penalty. They feel like they`ve run this mess on, they`ve gone this far and they want to see it through. They want justice for their brother.
PINSKY: Thank you, Shanna.
Joining us to discuss, attorney and Sirius XM radio host, Jenny Hutt, Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at speaktomark.com, and Loni Coombs, attorney and author of "You`re Perfect and Other Lies Parents Tell".
Mark, if Jodi were to get life in prison, let`s say she doesn`t get the death penalty, even though the family wants to go after that, is there a chance she could still be paroled?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Well, under the current law, the answer unfortunately, is yes. However, the judge would decide, assuming she gets life, either life without parole or life with the possibility of parole after 25 years.
The chances in my opinion of this judge giving her the chance of getting parole is so low, so remote, it approaches almost no real value. Under a new law, which does not apply to Jodi unfortunately, called life means life, that would change. You`d have to do natural life if you`re convicted of premeditated first degree murder.
PINSKY: But she -- does not ally to her, right?
EIGLARSH: Does not, no.
PINSKY: Got it.
Now, Jodi`s Twitter account has been active again. There`s a new tweet that says, "I will be sorry for the rest of my life, probably longer." She signs it me and cites her May 21st statement to the jury.
Jenny, I know this drives you insane.
JENNY HUTT, RADIO HOST: Insane, it drives me bonkers, Dr. Drew. I mean, is she really not just quoting herself but quoting herself? Does she really tag it like that? I mean, I don`t get it.
She`s a monster, Dr. Drew. I`ve had it. Had it.
PINSKY: Loni, what do you think is going to go down in this follow-up round two? Do you think we`re going to have a long, drawn out trial again where Jodi gets back up on the stand?
LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: Well, I do. I think if it goes, it`s going to take a long time and Jodi`s going to take her time, just like she always is. She`s not going to change. I don`t know if she knows how to change.
But I still think, even though the victim`s family is saying that they want to go forward with the death penalty, I still think there`s a chance between now and July when the case starts again that they might decide, look, we have finally pulled back, we are back in our families and our lives, and maybe if we know for sure it`s life without the possibility of parole but real life we might consider it.
And honestly, I think if Jodi would agree as part of that plea deal to just shut up, no more tweeting, no more videos, no more interviews, no more manifestos, I think that might go a long way to actually bringing the family some comfort --
EIGLARSH: Loni --
COOMBS: -- because honestly, she`s not allowing Travis to rest in peace. She`s still going after him.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Mark.
EIGLARSH: You know, if -- but telling Jodi to somehow stop speaking and stop torturing the victim`s family, it`s like with my dog, you get a temporary reprieve, like place, and then you walk away and then he jumps right up to bark again, you know? You don`t get what you want out of her.
COOMBS: Right. That`s absolutely right. I agree with you. I don`t know if it`s in her. But I think if there was some way that someone could talk her into it -- that would go a long way with the victim`s family.
PINSKY: I think it would, but I don`t think it`s likely to happen.
Thank you, guys.
Next up, juror #6 and juror #17 are back with us for a primetime exclusive. We will show them evidence they saw during the trial. There they are.
And later, did divorce papers drive an ex-cop to murder his wife and burn their house down? We have a behavior bureau on this guy. I`ve got a lot of thoughts on this one.
Stay with us.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Michelle Ward.
And just a reminder, I know you`ve been watching on Nancy and Jane. The Seacat murder trial, we`re going to get to that in just a second. As I said, we`ve got a behavior bureau standing by to ring in on what is going on there.
Joining the two of us are two of Jodi`s jurors, Diane Schwartz, who voted for the death penalty for Jodi, and Tara Kelley, an alternate who would have voted for the death penalty. They are going to react to some video that the jury did not see during the trial to see if it would have persuaded some of their cohorts to perhaps consider more along the way they were thinking.
But, first, here`s a clip from an interview I did with Travis` good friend Chris Hughes. He`s telling a story about how creepy Jodi`s behavior was. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS HUGHES, SAYS JODI WAS EAVESDROPING ON THEM: My wife, you know, she`s got a sixth sense about things, and she says oh, my gosh. She`s out there.
And then there`s a knock at the door, and this is Jodi. Now, this is in the late hours of the night. She`s supposed to be asleep in another bedroom. We continue our conversation, maybe another 45 minutes to an hour goes by, and my wife gets this feeling again, and she goes she`s out there again.
So, Travis jumps off the bed, jerks the door open, and there`s Jodi arias with the most frightening, evil -- I mean, I`ve never seen anything like it before.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Tara, we heard a lot of people reporting things like that here on this program, and other programs were reporting the same thing. I don`t think you guys heard anything like that in the courtroom. Do you think that would have persuaded any of your peers?
TARA KELLEY, JUROR #17 IN JODI ARIAS TRIAL: You know, the stalking evidence, I don`t know that that was really as big of an issue, you know? I think the four that voted for life, you know, they did so because more of the abuse aspect of it than the stalking aspect of it.
PINSKY: Diane, how about you?
DIANE SCHWARTZ, JUROR #6 IN JODI ARIAS TRIAL: I tend to agree with Tara. I think that there was a real concern on the verbal abuse. But having said that, I think you could also look a little bit towards her behaviors and start to see that maybe he indeed was fearful or she was problematic, a little bit more to her personality.
PINSKY: Yes. See, that`s where we got listening to the friends and family and everyone talk about what went down was that -- I know Mark Eiglarsh is standing by, I`m going to have him ring in here in a second. But that we kind of understand that that verbal abuse was a flurry at the end out of frustration from her behavior -- Mark.
EIGLARSH: Yes, Diane. I`m dying to ask you this question.
So, you go back and you`re deliberating whether she should live or die. Four people say we think it`s abuse. I`m imagining the others are saying abuse? You mean harsh words for a psycho ex?
What was said to that person or persons and what was their response in trying to articulate, no, we really think it was abuse as opposed to just harsh words for someone?
SCHWARTZ: We didn`t have any violence in the jury room at all. But that abuse issue was one of an emotional and verbal. And for those people, they felt very strongly that it had been ongoing for some period of time.
It was not something that I felt. And I said even if it was just a short period of time or it was a few text messages in a group of text messages, I don`t think we`ve seen a full picture. But, remember, it was their own personal decision.
PINSKY: Michelle, one of the things we didn`t hear from on the stand was anybody testifying about psychopathy. Do you think that was a missed opportunity, people could have understood that goal-directed behavior she was involved in?
WARD: I don`t know. I think it`s kind of a catch-22 because we also say those people are deficient, they`re incapable of understanding right from wrong. They`re incapable of feeling these proper emotions. So, then, are we kind of giving her pass? I mean, can we convict her of a crime if she doesn`t understand the difference between right and wrong, per se?
So, I don`t know. I think that`s a slippery slope.
But I want to ask these lovely ladies something. We were frustrated watching all this stalking stuff and all this creepy behavior by Jodi. We got to watch it. You guys didn`t get to see it, but did it come across? Did her nastiness telegraph to you?
PINSKY: Tara, you first.
KELLEY: I think so. To me, I thought that there was enough proof between some of the witnesses who were briefly able to say something about Jodi stalking Travis, and I do feel that even some of the text messages came across that you know it is possible he was fearful of Jodi.
SCHWARTZ: I definitely feel that her demeanor and mannerisms came through and that people felt that. You know, kind of going back onto that verbal abuse, remember that some of the other factors that they looked at were that her age and no criminal history. And those were important to them.
So, even though we or I saw it and Tara saw it, many times, other people don`t see those things.
PINSKY: Let me -- I`m going to show you guys now a tape of the police speaking to Jodi`s dad. Now, I know you didn`t see any of the interrogation tapes, but you`ve seen some of the mother`s tapes since the trial. You`ve not seen this particular tape of the dad. So, let`s listen to what he says.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
INTERROGATOR: The only thing I don`t have is why. Why she committed this --
JODI ARIAS` DAD: I know, man. She was getting along with him so good. That day I called her and she couldn`t even talk, and I go, "What`s going on?" She goes, "Travis was murdered."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Michelle, flush it out to the jurors to what we saw, which is the sort of relating to the daughter having a really serious deficit and then him seeming to be kind of cold also. What did you see there?
WARD: Right. Well, you see that kind of callous, lack of emotion at the very minimum. I`m looking at that thinking, well, your daughter`s a little psychopathic and doesn`t have great emotional connection and maybe he doesn`t either. He doesn`t seem to be in disbelief over this. He seems like, wow, yes, gosh, looks like somebody was murdered, maybe Jodi did it. That to me is so telling.
PINSKY: Diane, do you have reaction to that tape?
SCHWARTZ: I could definitely see that no remorse there. And, and that did hit me. And it`s of concern to me. Maybe that`s a part of her family. I don`t know.
PINSKY: Yes, psychopathy has a genetic basis to it.
Jenny, do you have a question?
HUTT: I did. Mark`s question is what I was thinking about, but to take it one step farther regarding the abuse that the four jurors thought happened that I definitely don`t think happened. Was any of it tied to the sexual stuff and sexual content of the texting and the recorded voice mails and conversation?
PINSKY: Either of you?
SCHWARTZ: I think the majority of it was tied to the texts, some of the e-mails, some of the -- just the barbs that went back and forth. Also her description about how Travis essentially forced her to have sex but yet she said she liked to have sex. And they only heard part of it, and that`s what they heard. That was the most important element and their perception and their feelings of her.
And I guess you have to respect that. I don`t understand that, not at all.
PINSKY: Tara, your thoughts?
KELLEY: Yes, I agree. As far as going back to her dad`s video, yes. You can definitely see no remorse. And if you compare her mom`s video to her dad`s video, it`s totally opposite. Her mom was -- didn`t seem really that surprised I don`t think, but she seemed a lot more emotional than her dad did. Her dad didn`t seem like he was really surprised at all.
PINSKY: OK. We`re going to take a quick break. We`ll be back with more.
And a reminder, we`re going to get to that trial that`s gone going, the Seacat case, where the guy -- well, we got a behavior panel set up, ready to go. Melted gas can, a suicide note, looks like forgery, it all adds up to murder we think.
Back after this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can`t really go any where in prison other than death.
PINSKY: You were headed to one or the other.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. And I didn`t care which one I was going to either, at that time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a girl. There you go. Leah.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A few weeks ago, to try to kill myself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m glad you didn`t succeed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You think you`re depressed?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They arrested her yesterday.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did a plea bargain. My plea bargain is two years probation, 30 to 60 days in rehab.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Amber had a drug screen by having something in her system that wasn`t supposed to be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Michelle Ward.
Now, all week long, HLN is going behind bars, taking a look at what life is like for those who are in fact locked up. Jane`s behind bars, Nancy`s going behind bars, and last year, I went behind bars.
Amber Portwood, former reality star of MTV show "Teen Mom" actually chose a 5-year prison sentence over rehab. That was eight months ago. I went behind bars to see her.
Take a look at what we found out.
PINSKY: What were the crimes that got you here?
AMBER PORTWOOD, FORMER REALITY STAR: Well, the original one that I went to jail for the first time was the domestic violence with Gary.
PORTWOOD: From that, that led to being on probation and then getting possession of pills, which led to jail and then drug court. Then I opted out of drug court, and I came here.
PINSKY: What made you say, I`m not taking treatment, take me to prison?
PORTWOOD: I just felt like when I was in treatment I wasn`t getting anything out of it. I was still doing drugs. I started to move to kind of harder drugs.
PINSKY: Like what?
PORTWOOD: Fentanyl patches. It`s a patch that you stick on you.
PINSKY: The plastic patch.
PORTWOOD: Yes, a little patch.
PINSKY: With a gel on it.
PINSKY: That`s meant to go through your skin.
PORTWOOD: Yes, not in your mouth.
PINSKY: I just want to point out to people that chewing on a Fentanyl patch, any pain patch, could easily lead to overdose and death. Did you understand you were in that kind of danger at the time?
PORTWOOD: I kind of did. I just didn`t care. I would do it in the mornings, to go pee to screen. I would be chewing on a patch as I was screening. That`s when I knew I just didn`t give a EXPLETIVE DELETED).
PINSKY: Even Leah didn`t matter to you?
PORTWOOD: Yes, nothing mattered to me.
PINSKY: Can you help people understand that , what that is, when drug addiction gets so far that you don`t care about anything, even your own child?
PORTWOOD: And it`s not that you don`t love your child? You`re a very selfish person when you`re an addict. All I wanted was to find drugs so I didn`t have to withdraw. I didn`t care about who was in my way. You just always think about when am I going to get my next pills?
I just have a feeling that with this I will come out a different person, and I will be not a different person but I`ll be a better person when I get out, and a better mom.
PINSKY: You said that to me before. I`ve asked that question before. How is this -- how are you going to convince people that this time is different?
PORTWOOD: I`m ready. I wasn`t ready before. I don`t even remember what I said, probably.
PINSKY: So, inside these walls they`ve heard of teen mom.
PORTWOOD: Oh, yes.
PINSKY: They`ve heard of Amber before?
PINSKY: Would you do the TV teen mom show again?
PORTWOOD: Definitely. I`m going to be able to help more people. And to me, that makes me happy.
PINSKY: Joining us to discuss, Shelly Sprague, chemical dependency expert. And Samantha Schacher, social commentator and host of "Pop Trigger" on Young Turks Network.
Samantha, my question is to you first.
Thank you guys for joining me.
Do you think that -- we know the teen mom show has had a dramatic impact on the pregnancy in this country. The data is unmistakable. Pregnancy is going down. It`s at the lowest rate since the 1940s.
Young people are smart. They see these struggling lives these young girls have and they know not to go there. They see it.
Now, my question, though, is: are they getting the same message about drugs and alcohol and how hard it is to say sober from what Amber has done? Elected to go to prison to a three-year drug treatment program?
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I sure hope so. I mean, what I do like about Amber, she is in prison right now. And she is trying to be productive. She`s trying to advocate change. She`s in there teaching anger management courses.
And I think why not better have somebody like her had to learn the hard ways, who`s able to actually give advice to people and talk to them about anger issues. And as far as the teens out there, listen, I do think that teen mom did a great job of accurately portraying the obstacles of teen pregnancy.
However, what I have a problem with and where I think some of the viewers is the glamorizing of these cast members. You see these cast members become famous, you see them acquire wealth, you see them in magazines, you see them getting plastic surgery, and then we have Jenelle Evans today, Dr. Drew. She was in court for -- she`s facing two years for the heroin possession. So, I`m hoping that they`re learning from the teen mom pregnancy.
PINSKY: Well, just ask the data. The data`s unmistakable. If the data were saying different I wouldn`t be able to sit here and tell you. The slope is dramatically negative.
SCHACHER: It is.
PINSKY: And it turned more negative the quarter the show went on television. So, it`s not a debatable point. It just happened.
PINSKY: The glamorizing is one thing. But thank God it`s continued to have its desired effect. But the real question here is about drugs and alcohol. Jenelle is another case in point. Hopefully she`ll end up in a program like that.
Shelly, I`ll ask you the same thing. Amber is in a three-year intensive program. You know, we heard Samantha say that she`s using -- treating in an anger management class. It`s not like she`s, people hearing that are going to go oh, right -- listen, she had to work her way through that for a year to be -- to put herself in a position where she became the peer leader of an anger management class which tells you how well she`s doing in this program because she chose to separate herself from her drugs by going to prison.
I think it`s a model program and more states ought to pick that up. Shelly?
SHELLY SPRAGUE, PASADENA RECOVERY CENTER: Yes, I would agree. And, you know, she`s obviously gaining some level of self-esteem. She`s obviously gaining some coping skills.
She`s gaining information so that she can leave there and definitely be more productive person, a better mother and all of those things.
But I have to say that her aftercare plan is going to be crucial to maintain this, because she`s separated from the chemicals, but the chemicals are still out there for her.
PINSKY: But, listen. You and I said, Shelly, if we could put somebody in a lockdown for three years and work on them we could get a lot done.
SPRAGUE: Oh, absolutely.
PINSKY: You know, that`s what`s happening here. This is a model program. But I agree with you. Once she gets out, it`s got to be a dosed down program. She has to go from prison to a sober living or something like that, to some sort of independent living process.
Michelle, you look a little confused. Do you know what we`re talking about?
WARD: I`m not confused, but I look at this girl and she`s a little girl making a lot of big kid`s decisions, big girl decisions. And it`s being a mom is a trigger. It`s a trigger for me. And I`m nowhere near 16.
And, you know, she`s faced with coming out of this program, with a child, I don`t know if she had access to the child, but either way it`s a trigger. Plus, all of her friends and all of it around her.
I mean, it`s going to be a struggle no matter what. But I think you`re right maybe having been there for so long, having that length of time, where she`s away from the drugs, would be a step ahead, give her a step ahead I think.
PINSKY: I think we`re all missing the point here. It`s not just that she`s separated from the drug. She`s in an intensive treatment program, 12, 14 hours a day. They are holding her accountable to everything. This is something I`d love for all of my patients.
Shelly, it`s a dream come true, right?
SPRAGUE: Behavior modification for three years. It`s a dream come true, absolutely. Absolutely.
SCHACHER: Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Yes, Samantha?
SCHACHER: I have a question for you: what -- do you think that it`s a good decision for her to do "Teen Mom" again once she comes out, will that help her recovery?
PINSKY: No, that`s not something you put in a treatment plan, nor do I think she`ll be doing it. It was just a question about regrets at that point I was asking her. Does she fit?
Because drug addicts are drug addicts, and, you know, being on a reality show or not doesn`t make people become more of a drug addict. You know, that`s -- Shelly, you and I said over and over again, it`s just like when people look at celebrities and go, oh, it`s because they`re celebrities, they are drug addict. No. They`re just addicts and they happen to be celebrities.
SPRAGUE: Yes. There just -- more public.
SPRAGUE: There`s, you know, all kinds of drug addicts everywhere doing the same exact thing. They`re just not caught doing it as often.
PINSKY: There you go. Now, I want to remind everybody, watch "America Behind Bars" all this week on HLN. Tomorrow, we will speak to a former New Jersey governor, Jim McGreevey, about his work on behalf of drug addicts in jail. I think these programs are modeled programs if we can just get more of them around the country. A lot of states don`t have the money to do this sort of thing.
I was stunned at what was going on in Indiana. And Wednesday night, 8:00 p.m. Nancy Grace takes us inside the prison that Jodi Arias called home.
Next up, did a former Kansas cop murder his wife and burn the house down? The behavior bureau is going to look at this man and his behavior after this.
PINSKY (voice-over): What went wrong with this seemingly happy couple?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you murder her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you pull the trigger?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you kill her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
PINSKY: Brett Seacat is on trial for killing his wife, Vashti, and burning their house down. Vashti Seacat had filed for divorce from the law enforcement instructor 16 days earlier. Listen to his 911 call the night she died.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s a fire. My wife is -- she shot herself, but she`s in the fire. There`s smoke everywhere.
PINSKY: He escaped with their two young children. A melted gas can was found near her body. A handwriting expert testified that a suicide note from her was forged. There are allegations of domestic abuse which Seacat denies. Then there`s this from the co-worker.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said, "do you think Brett would burn the house down with me in it?" And I was taken aback by that. I said, "not with the kids at home."
PINSKY (on-camera): Back with my co-host, Michelle Ward and the behavior bureau has a lot to say about this case. If Brett Seacat did, what is the motive? And if Vashti Seacat killed herself, why would she have done that? What`s going on with this guy? Michelle, before I bring in the bureau, would you feel like playing Nancy in unleashing the attorneys.
PINSKY: Do you have a sense about this guy? In fact, I want to show you a picture before I ask you this. Can you show me those pictures, the before and after pictures we have of this gentleman? I asked for these pictures, because he looked quite different to me. Can we pull those up? Anybody? OK here they come.
And Michelle, I want you to see if you see -- no. That`s not the pictures I was looking four. That`s more recently. There`s a screen where there`s a before and an after on the same page.
MICHELLE WARD, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: But I think I know what you`re talking about.
PINSKY: There`s the one. There they are right there.
WARD: Oh, yes.
PINSKY: That`s him on the left before or now it`s on the right. Look at him on the left now. I mean, that is fairly dramatic change in appearance. And to my gut, it tells me something is going on of a biological or psychiatric nature. Do you read that on there?
WARD: Absolutely. There`s something there physically, but to me, it screams drugs.
PINSKY: Well, it says that methamphetamine could easily but also mania. Mania can do that, right?
WARD: Absolutely. And he seems a little manic in that interview room. I mean, who screams at the interrogator like that?
PINSKY: Exactly right. So, bring in our attorney and Sirius XM radio host, Jenny Hutt, Samantha Schacher, social commentator and host of Pop Trigger on The Young Turks, network and criminal investigator, Danine Manette, author of "Ultimate Betrayal."
OK. First, I want to go on out to CNN`s Ted Rowlands who`s covering the story. Ted, can you give us a brief sense of what`s happened today?
VOICE OF TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Drew, the most dramatic part of today`s testimony was when a co-worker came in and basically said that Vashti was worried because Brett had threatened her with this exact bizarre scenario.
According to this co-worker, Vashti walked up to her and another co- worker, a tax (ph) communications where they work, and said that she was fearful of Brett because he threatened her by saying I`m going to kill you. I`m going to burn the house down, and I`m going to make it look like a suicide.
When she laid that out for the jury, it was one of those moments where everybody just looked straight over at Brett and kind of thought, well, how are you going to get out of this one, dude? Because this woman was obviously not lying. Very compelling testimony.
PINSKY: Ted, thank you for that update. It`s interesting. I was looking around the behavior bureau. I want to go around the horn with each of you, guys, before we go on, because you had a combination of nodding and shaking. You all were vigorously responding. I`ll start with Jenny. You go ahead.
JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: OK. So, first of all, before like everyone on Twitter and everywhere else gets mad at me, I`m not making light of suicide. I know it`s a terrible thing and tragic when it happened. In this case, from first glance, I don`t think that`s what happened, because the wife that just got out that filed for divorce that is no longer stuck is not the one who`s killing herself, Dr. Drew. She`s out. She`s free.
PINSKY: But where she was killed, she was killed from behind in the neck. I mean, Nancy went over this in great detail during her show. This is not how people kill themselves, particularly not women. Women take pills. They do things -- they don`t resort to the gun violence that males do. But let`s keep going. Samantha, you have a comment here?
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. Well, off of Jenny`s point, I mean, people that want to commit suicide, they don`t go telling their friends that they`re happy and that they`re hopeful for the future. She had plans. She had a concert set in stone. She had plans to do girls` night. She was looking forward to her future.
Also, watching that tape really quickly gives me chills because she clearly had suspicions to ask such a question, and it just reminds us that if we have suspicions, we need to -- and I know it`s easier said than done. We need to trust our inner voice. We need to trust our gut.
PINSKY: Well, Michelle, I`m going to flip on over to you because you`re the stalking expert where you`re always advising people to take action with people that escalate.
WARD: It`s so crazy. Sometimes, you are sleeping with the enemy. And it sounds like she kind of knew she was, but this is what`s kinds of -- and I know this is going to be unpopular, but he should have done a better job. He`s a cop. If he was going to kill his wife, he should have been able to pull it off a little bit neater than he did and not -- I`m sorry, I know again, no one`s going to like this, but I`m wondering, maybe there is more to this than what we`re seeing.
PINSKY: Oh, Michelle, how about that he was manic or on drugs, and so, he was, you know, not of his normal mind. Danine, what do you think?
DANINE MANETTE, AUTHOR, "ULTIMATE BETRAYAL": Dr. Drew, I once heard a statistic that 90 percent of women are killed by someone who claims to love them. And, here we have a case where you`re always going to look at the person that`s closest to you, but this guy is not only being jilted, but he also is a police officer. So, therefore, we have both a motive and a method. You know, I think that in this situation, it`s kind of spot on.
PINSKY: And I read some data today that, unfortunately, listen, I`m a big supporter of police and the incredibly stressful life they have to live, but they`re about two to four times more likely to be involved in a domestic violence circumstance than the average family. But Michelle, again, you were kind of a profiler -- what about what Danine saying here?
WARD: Well, you know, when we call it behind the badge, I mean, there`s a couple of things that kind of jump out at me as one is he`s used to being an intimidator. I mean, he`s an officer. He`s always in control. So, I kind of think when you`re being left, now taking the devil`s advocacy out of it, when you`re being left and you have the situation where you`re losing control, absolutely somebody can snap.
And he has access. He has guns. And it seems like he might have had a plan. The next thing I want to talk about is you are most likely to be victimized by somebody you know, primarily, a lover, stalked, killed, all of the above. So, naturally, he`s going to be the first place they go as a suspect. I`d like to know more about him. Is he impulsive? Is he a drug addict?
PINSKY: Well, but Michelle, I want you to all look at this video. This is of him being interrogated. He was interrogated for seven hours. And both you and I brought up how impulsive and manic he seems in the interrogation chamber. Take a look.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you murder her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you pull the trigger?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you kill her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She told a friend a week and a half prior to this incident that you threatened to kill her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You started to burn the house down. You threatened to make it look like she did it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That is, that is bull (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
PINSKY: Michelle, I get -- see what we`re talking about there? And I want to know more about his background and if he`s had previous drug use or mental illness? I also want to know about here. What got her attracted to this guy? Is there something in her past that, you know, we could look at, and go, oh, yes, she -- kind of narcissistic guy she was attracted to, but, we`re going to have to take a break to discuss all that because we`re not finished. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said, "do you think Brett would burn the house down with me in it?" And I looked at her and I said, "what?" And she said, do you think Brett would burn the house down with me in it? And I was taken aback by that. And I said, "not with the kids at home."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Michelle Ward and the behavior bureau. Jenny, I saw you reacting. Go ahead.
HUTT: Well, I was going to react to the interrogation room video that you showed just before the break.
HUTT: Everyone`s saying it`s weird that he says no! No! But what`s the guy supposed to do? He`s in the box. He`s a cop. He`s been there before on the other side of it. And so, he knows he`s got to defend himself right then and there and say he didn`t do it. No, I didn`t do it! Of course not! What are you talking about? If he had been wishy-washy, Dr. Drew, we would have another issue. That said, I still don`t think she killed herself.
PINSKY: Danine, what do you say to that?
MANETTE: I say that that`s absolutely correct. He`s always in the interrogation room. He knows how to react. He knows what they`re looking for. It`s just like, you know, a bank robber, an inside job is a person who works at the bank. So, it`s just easy when you`ve seen the other side. I know from my personal experience working in criminal defense that prosecutors make the best defense attorneys a lot of times because you know the other side.
I think he`s in there and he`s completely, you know, within his own territory. He knows what they`re looking for, and he`s going to respond accordingly.
PINSKY: And Michelle, let me go back to you. I think not only did he do a bad job in the crime scene, he`s doing a bad job in the interrogation room, too, because I see somebody anxious and manicky and impulsive. And do you think he`d be much more like, hey, guys, come on -- this is confusing to me.
PINSKY: But I see somebody who looks -- I mean, just add it up. Let`s add up the score, Michelle. You`ve got a guy that does this crazy job at the crime scene with the gas on him, shoots the woman from behind the way you would do execution style, lights the house on fire, has a disingenuine 911 tape and a weird interrogation, and a weird picture where his pupils are blown. He looks manic. He looks something. It all adds up to me to being something really wrong with this guy.
WARD: Right. And I think Jenny and Danine have a good point that we`d probably tear it apart no matter what he said in the interrogation room, but, wouldn`t -- not if he said something like look, I know you guys have to question me, I totally get it, but I absolutely did not do this.
PINSKY: Samantha, I just got a few seconds. Go ahead.
SCHACHER: I agree with you, Dr. Drew. I would think you can say no in a confident manner, but he comes off so aggressive and defensive. And to me, he just looks guilty just right there in that interrogation room.
PINSKY: We will have more on this story and the reaction to actor, Michael Douglas, and his comments about oral sex and cancer, which by the way, I commend him for being an advocate. I don`t care whether it`s because of that or not, we`ll talk about it. You`ll see what I mean.
PINSKY: Back with our co-host, Michelle Ward, and my behavior bureau. We`ve been talking about a sensational story out of Kansas, the Brett Seacat trial. He`s a former law enforcement instructor on trial for murder and the death of his wife. I have a tweet on this I get during the break. It said, it is from @twtr_ROAD, "@DrDrew, "To me, the before and after pictures shout steroids."
And it`s interesting he said that, because, well, you guys are scoffing a little bit. But actually, when you see that jaw line increasing, I kind of thought that too, but then he actually has some pictures in the police headquarters where he got his shirt off, and it didn`t scream steroids. And I wonder if that`s just him grinding his teeth which says other drugs to me, but I just got to wonder.
Jenny, you`re an attorney. Do you think he will have to get up and testify like Jodi Arias did to try to have some sort of rapport with the jury?
HUTT: Well, first of all, he does not have to get up and testify. He`s a right to not self-incriminate. And so, I would hope that he won`t testify if what he`s going to say is going to go against keeping him out of jail. He`s got to be smart about it. And the defense team is got to be smart about. If he`s a cop and a good cop, he`ll know to listen to his defense team. And they`ll guide him. That`s what I think.
PINSKY: Danine, you agree with that? To me, it looked -- there`s so much piled up against him, again, we learned in Jodi Arias that people try to get a rapport for the defendant. No?
MANETTE: Well, you know, with him, he`s real smart. I mean, he knows what to do and what not to do. I`m kind of surprised that he made so many mistakes in the crime because it just seems like he actually should know a little bit more.
PINSKY: That`s why --
MANETTE: But maybe it`s better if he just kind of doesn`t, doesn`t say so much more. Maybe it`s better if he just allow his defense team to - -
PINSKY: Again, all that sloppiness means the brain isn`t working right. We`ll take a call. Barbara in Indiana. Barbara, what you got?
BARBARA, INDIANA: Hi, Dr. Drew. I have two, a son and a daughter who are Chicago police officers. They are trained to be professional and stoic at every moment. If they saw a kid with their heads cut off, they would call it in in a professional voice. They might break down later, but that`s not the point. This guy was so fake, so Hollywood, he sounded like a woman on the phone.
You know, it`s just so fake. My son would have called it in and maybe broke down. My daughter would have done the same. But this guy is just, unbelievable.
PINSKY: Disingenuine. I agree. That`s a great point, Barbara. Michelle -- excuse me, Michelle, you seemed to be nodding your head vigorously.
WARD: Well, I`m not going to disregard the rage (ph) quite yet, because you actually mentioned that, too, in the green room. And I think there could be something there. But yes, the tape where he`s delivering the information to 911 about the house being on fire, that seemed off to me as well.
PINSKY: Samantha, you want to say something?
SCHACHER: I agree. I don`t think anyone is buying it. I mean, listen, innocent until proven guilty, but no one is buying this act. And his eyes in that picture, Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Blown pupils.
SCHACHER: It looks -- yes, completely vacant.
PINSKY: Well, to me, it`s what we call a stare. You see that stare. You see the white above the iris a little bit? That usually is a biological problem. Mania, drugs, something.
OK, guys. Here`s the deal. We`re going to keep following this case. And tomorrow, we actually have a close friend of Brett Seacat`s wife will be here. Let me get that right. Seacat`s friend`s wife. The wife`s friend will be here. It`s going to be very interesting.
Next up, an Oscar-winning actor`s comments about oral sex and cancer made headlines. But, I say he having said that will have helped save lives. Back after this.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Michelle Ward, for the last call. Now, tonight, a wake-up call to many people, thanks to actor, Michael Douglas` comments linking oral sex and cancer. Here`s the deal. I`ve been yelling about this for two years, Michelle, on the radio and tele -- anywhere people listen. HPV causes cancer, anal cancer, oral cancer, cervical cancer, and we have a vaccine to prevent cancer.
Here are some facts. 37,000 people will develop oral cancer this year. Certain percentages will be related to HPV. In The U.S., only two percent of boys are vaccinated against HPV compared to 50 percent of girls. Boys are more likely to get head and neck cancer from HPV than girls. It is a problem that is rapidly increasing.
And I say hats off to Michael Douglas for making an issue of this. It is an important issue the young people need to be aware of. They need to understand that one of the potential transmissions of cancer is through sexual contact. Michelle, they told me you have a little question about this.
WARD: Well, I have never -- I`ve obviously heard of the link between HPV and cancer, but I`ve never heard of the link between oral sex and cancer.
PINSKY: The cancer to head and neck. When people -- their necks dissected and they get things in the tongue and the roof of the mouth, those are -- not all, they can be HPV related. Obviously, tobacco and alcohol are also risk factors.
WARD: And that`s what I understood.
PINSKY: Well, that`s true also, but the HPV related cancers are dramatically increasing. And they`re treated slightly different than the ones that are purely of non-HPV related. But again, other body parts get affected as well. Men get affected as well as women. Get your kids vaccinated.
If I said there was a vaccine against any other kind of cancer, you`d be airlifting your kids to get it. I don`t know why we have a problem with this particular form of cancer.
Michelle, thank you. Thank you for asking that question and thank you for co-hosting. Thank you all for watching. Thank you, of course, to my panelists tonight. Thank you to our callers. I will see you next time. "HLN After Dark" starts right now.