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Brett Seacat Trial
Aired June 5, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Brett Seacat bombshell, a secret kept for a decade revealed! Was he married to two women at the same time? We have an exclusive with the victim`s best friend who exposes the truth.
Plus, could Jodi Arias escape death? One of her jurors is here with a message for the people who will decide.
And, Nancy Grace goes behind bars. It`s a raw, it`s real.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening, everybody.
Co-host this week, Michelle Ward.
Coming up, I will be speaking to a Jodi Arias juror with a message for the jury that will ultimately decide Jodi`s fate and we will speak to Vashti Seacat`s very close friend.
But, first, was Brett Seacat so in love with his wife, Vashti, that he murdered her just days after she filed for divorce. Or as he claimed, she killed himself.
Take a look at this.
BRETT SEACAT, SUSPECT: Is there a motive?
POLICE: Hell yes. There`s motive, hands-down.
SEACAT: What is it again?
POLICE: The motive?>
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His attorneys told jurors Vashti was depressed and suicidal because Brett threatened to expose an affair she was having with a co-worker.
SEACAT: I wanted her out. I would`ve divorced, just grant her the divorce.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Brett, I can`t do this. I can`t fight this out. Take care of our boys. Be sweet to Brendan, talk to Branson, hold them both and tell them mommy loves them every night. I`m taking care of the house.
POLICE: The problem is Brett, you`re in love. You`re still in love with her.
SEACAT: Yes, I am.
POLICE: And she was going to leave you. There was no doubt about that.
SEACAT: That`s not why you kill people.
POLICE: Well, some people do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All of this irregular bright white objects are fragments of bullet and jacket. There was an additional gun shot of the trunk. The chest in the abdomen, the left hip and thigh, and then a gunshot wound of the left thigh.
PINSKY: CNN`s Ted Rowlands is following the trial.
Ted, I want to play some dramatic video of Brett Seacat in action. And you`re going to tell us about it. Take a look at this.
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Yes, Drew, this is Brett Seacat in 2006, when he was a sheriff`s deputy. You can see along with partner, he`s aggressively detaining a defendant unruly in the courtroom. Now, at the time, he was actually awarded a medal because of his actions. And the department took very quick action.
Now, in retrospect looking at this, it`s something that you think that maybe the prosecution would want to show in court because he was so aggressive. Obviously, it`s not coming into the murder trial. It would be way too prejudicial. However, it is eye-opening go after this defendant and ironic because he is the guy sitting in the defendant`s chair.
PINSKY: Anything new in court today?
ROWLANDS: Well, 13 witnesses from the defense. They flew through a bunch of them. Basically the key defense witnesses were the experts in handwriting that they came up to help dispute the prosecution`s claim that suicide note was forged. Their defense witness said, no, this was a real suicide note, in her opinion.
Then we heard from an alternative medical expert who gave Vashti that hormone we talked last night, the HCG diet hormone. And that was good for the defense because it does throw out the possibility of why maybe this woman would kill herself. It just doesn`t make sense. They`re trying to make jurors believe that is what caused her to pressure and ultimately caused her death.
PINSKY: That`s the medicine we are looking at. I have not seen that cause significant depressions particularly in somebody who has no antecedent issue of depressions. Thank you, Ted.
Joining Michelle and myself, Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at speaktomark.com, former prosecutor Monica Lindstrom, attorney and Sirius XM host Jenny Hutt, and very own human lie detector and author of "You Can`t Lie to Me," Janine Driver.
Janine, you saw a good deal of Brett Seacat in the interrogation video. We`ll play some of it. Do we have something to play for her right now, are we going to comment on what she`s seen already?
Hang on. Here we go. I`m going to play a clip from the interrogation video and I want you then, Janine, since I have not heard from you yet what you see here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POLICE: You`re -- you`re someone I know.
No use getting mad at me because I`m being very nice.
SEACAT: I know you are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Janine, anything in that little brief tape.
JANINE DRIVER, AUTHOR: Well, it`s interesting, he`s doing what I call eye blocking or body blocking. We see him collapsing and he stops giving that eye contact. We saw that with Casey Anthony did a lot of this blocking when she would be talking.
So, this here is a hot spot. Typically with Seacat, he`s very aggressive. As you know, I call it a "convince not conveyor". These convince not conveyors, they are the toughest liars to typically spot. They are the bullies.
But here without a doubt, there`s more of the story here. We see that facial blocking going on.
PINSKY: Now, another detail has emerged about Mr. Seacat`s past. This is going to surprise a lot of people. Apparently had a common law wife prior to and I think even during his marriage to Vashti.
After Vashti was killed, the other wife filed for divorce for the following reasons. You have follow it, it`s crazy. A, Seacat had re- married; B, he was charged with murdering his wife; and C, the marriage, quote, "was causing significant psychological and emotional trauma," unquote.
Jenny Hutt, my head is exploding. What -- how does that work?
JENNY HUTT, RADIO HOST: Rough week for that guy, Dr. Drew. How does that work? Clearly, there`s something up with this guy. I mean, I think he did it, going off what Janine said, he doesn`t strike me as an honest stand-up guy.
I don`t think she was suicidal. I understand what they were talking about with a pregnancy hormone. When a girl is given some sort of weight loss medication that starts to work, she`s going to be happy, not suicidal. I`m not buying it.
Well, it`s one thing if it were a true. This is not stimulus. This is HCG. This is a placenta hormone.
And, by the way, women -- not something that typically causes depression.
Monica, help me with this common law wife and being married and unmarried. How do you put it together?
MONICA LINDSTROM, FORMER PROSECUTOR: It`s really surprising because you don`t typically hear of common-law marriages anymore. It`s usually when a couple has been together for many years, sometimes seven years. What surprises me, Dr. Drew, why did she wait this long to get a divorce. It took him to be married, have kids and then be accused of murder and then she wants a divorce.
That`s what I find really surprising, not any fact there was a common- law marriage before but just the fact that she waited so long to get a divorce.
PINSKY: Michelle, do you read anything on this? Anything going on here, anything -- I mean --
MICHELLE WARD, CO-HOST: I want to get my hands on her. I think she would be a gold mine of information. I mean, obviously, the real wife has died. I mean, she knows probably more about this guy than any else walking the planet.
PINSKY: Mark, can you help me make sense of this.
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: No. Because, to me, really? It doesn`t matter all that much. It really doesn`t. Dr. Big Knife laid it out perfectly last night in about two minutes.
Physically, what the defendant is alleging makes no sense. There would have been soot inside of her lungs if she was caught in the fire. That`s it.
Now, you add to that there`s no motive for the marriage counselor to lie and say that he admitted that he did it. Add to that that a mother doesn`t take herself out the manner in which he`s alleging --
PINSKY: Hey, Mark --
EIGLARSH: Plus, when she has two loving kids in the other room.
PINSKY: Mark --
PINSKY: Now, we`re hearing, I just saw in the tape before we had you guys up here. There were three other gunshot wounds. You shoot yourself in the leg, you shoot yourself in the stomach and then you shot yourself behind the neck. How does that work?
Anyway -- show of hands. Anybody seen a suicide that goes down like that?
EIGLARSH: Doesn`t make any sense. Him being married to this one that one, doesn`t matter to me -- not with that evidence.
DRIVER: After she shoots herself in the back of the neck and throw out her whole entire body, then she burns the house down.
You know what Casey Anthony said when asked about the smell in the trunk of her car, remember her mother called, said there`s smell in the car, it smells like a dead body. Casey Anthony said, dead squirrels climbed inside my trunk and died. So, a dead squirrel climbed, got in the trunk and then re-died. You can`t kill yourself with a gun and then light the house on fire.
PINSKY: Monica, you have the last here.
HUTT: But you also --
HUTT: I don`t think that`s --
LINDSTROM: It doesn`t make sense at all, Dr. Drew. Nothing that the defense has said so far makes sense. I don`t think anybody is believing it. We know that the court of public opinion clearly believes that he is guilty and she did not commit suicide.
HUTT: It would be really interesting to see what the local court of public opinion is, too. People who actually knew these people.
Next up, we actually have an exclusive with Vashti Seacat`s very close friend. She is here to tell us about the woman she knew whom she misses. The behavior bureau will weigh in.
And later, we`re going to go behind bars with Nancy Grace. She is here to tell us what she learned during her special in Jodi Arias` jailhouse.
Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POLICE: I think you need to take some deep breaths right now. You`re getting really mad.
SEACAT: Yes, I am.
I`m thinking real hard about not saying things. I`m smart enough that if I wanted to kill my wife, it would have been a lot -- I could have come up with something better than this. This is (EXPLETIVE DELETED) insane. This is what a crazy person does.
POLICE: No, not necessarily.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Michelle Ward and our behavior bureau, including Jenny Hutt, Janine Driver, clinical psychologist Cheryl Arutt joining us, as well as criminal investigator Danine Manette, author of "Ultimate Betrayal."
Before I introduce our special guest, Janine, I want to get another read from you. Do you this business, it seems very effective to put your hands up like this. And then sort of -- that was a strange move he made. You make anything of that?
DRIVER: Right. Well, those are pacifiers, a pacifier, any time a piece of our body touches another piece of our body. Baby uses a pacifier to comfort themselves. As adults, we touch our bodies.
Even more importantly here, Dr. Drew, he says, if I wanted to kill my wife -- we know, thanks to statement analysis, we say what we mean, so let`s take out the word if and what did he just tell us? I wanted to kill my wife. Major hot spot here.
Now, let me introduce a very special guest. Her name is Lisa Flaming. She`s Vashti Seacat`s very close friend and she is speaking only with us this evening.
Lisa, thank you for being here. I know this is a touchy and difficult topic. Thank you for flushing the story and making story, making Vashti, your friend, a personal friend for us.
When did you fist meet her?
LISA FLAMING, VASHTI`S BEST FRIEND (via telephone): I met Vashti when I was taking classes (INAUDIBLE) University in the fall semester of 1977. I went to the center, which is a local fitness rec center on the campus. I went to work out and Vashti was employed there and so, we met on the weight room. We thought when she`d seen each other that we`d met before. We thought we both looked familiar.
When she introduced herself to me as Vashti, I knew I`d never met before. That`s a very unique name. And then, in that same week or shortly after, I was in a bible study group through a local church here in Wichita, and she walked in the door and the rest is history. Our friendship just kind of took off after that.
PINSKY: And describe her to us. What kind of friend was she?
FLAMING: She was -- I like to describe her as the true picture of the love of God. She was very outgoing and friendly. She had a lot of friends. She was very kind, very compassionate, very aware of other people. Didn`t want to hurt anyone`s feelings ever, always smiling, fun loving, very uplifting, very encouraging.
PINSKY: Bright mood, bright affect generally, yes?
FLAMING: I`m sorry?
PINSKY: A bright mood, a bright affect, not a depressed person?
FLAMING: Absolutely. Very much so.
PINSKY: And did she ever talk to you about -- did she seem like she was troubled by anything or whenever you guys were dealing together it was always an upbeat friendship?
PINSKY: Yes, let me ask you just straight up: do you believe -- is she the kind of person in your mind that could commit suicide? Do you believe this death was a suicide?
FLAMING: Absolutely not.
PINSKY: Thank you very much, Lisa. I do appreciate you bringing your friend alive for us.
We`re going to bring in the behavior bureau.
Cheryl, Janine, I want to ask you guys -- start with you, Cheryl, not suicide by everyone that knew this woman. What are we supposed to conclude? We have this aggressive guy, pupils are blown, seems to be telling crazy stories?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it certainly looks suspicious. As we know, Dr. Drew, that when a woman is murdered, very often, the first person that the police want to look at is her husband or male significant other. He is the number one suspect who needs to be ruled out. It`s unfortunate but very often when women are murdered, they are murdered by someone they know and are close to. Whereas a man may be murdered by a stranger more often than someone he`s close to.
She seemed like a really happy, upbeat person. She loved her children, looking forward to a life after getting out from behind whatever she was entangled in with this man. It certainly doesn`t look good for Brett.
PINSKY: Listen, I want to play -- I want to put up a Twitter here for you guys and, Michelle, I have you comment. I`ll comment, too.
This is, @DrDrew, Seacat`s appearance looks like steroids, eyes blown, buffed up, angry and impulsive. Has anyone considered this? Maybe HGC -- or human growth hormone maybe they`re saying there.
POINSKY: But I`ll tell you what? HGC does not make people agitated nor depressed. We talked, Michelle, about steroids yesterday, yet, physically doesn`t look like steroids. He does that have stare meaning you have white above the iris. He also has the blown pupils when he has a bright light in his face.
To me, those are not physiological states. That`s hyperthyroidism, that`s mania, that`s methamphetamine. Do you agree?
WARD: Yes. I think it`s the second person that brought up the roid rage. I mean, I don`t know enough about it but doesn`t look like the person we`re seeing in these other photos. He is aggressive. I mean, we have seen tape on him, we`ve had people reporting about his behavior, and it looks like he`s involved in a nasty murder.
This is such a one-sided case. I`m really curious to see what the defense is going to pull out other than depression because it`s not holding a lot of water.
PINSKY: Jenny, go ahead.
HUTT: What you said before of the three gunshot wounds, I don`t think I ever heard of someone killing him or herself with three gunshots. After three shots, you miss you don`t do the full thing, aren`t you in pain? How do you do that? How is that possible?
PINSKY: The legs and the trunk? Danine, help me understand. I`m going to shot myself down there, a couple of times, then I`m going to -- by the way, people do this and this. They go here, they go here. They don`t go here. It`s a very strange thing for somebody to do, would you agree?
DANINE MANETTE: The whole thing is crazy. And what this really shows me is you have no idea what`s going on within somebody`s home. You have no idea what`s going on with their marriage, whether it`s domestic violence, whether it`s infidelity.
I run a support group for infidelity survivors in San Francisco. Everyone in my group say that everyone around them, family and co-workers say no one has any idea what`s going on in their home because they appear to have this perfect relationship. She was very fun loving and happy and out-going and you just have no idea of the hell she may have been going through at home. Nobody knows.
PINSKY: It`s a great point.
Let`s talk to a caller, Johnny in Texas. A lot of head nodding in my group here. Johnny, go ahead.
JOHNNY, CALLER FROM TEXAS: Dr. Drew, yes, just because this guy was an ex-cop, does that mean he can commit the perfect murder? I think there`s a lot more than meets the eye in this case. I think very questionable circumstances in my opinion.
PINSKY: Well, I think we`re all agreeing with that.
Jenny, do you have something to say?
DRIVER: Well, I have something, Dr. Drew, this is Janine.
PINSKY: Oh, Janine, go ahead.
DRIVER: I have something to say -- well, first of all, no, Drew Peterson, who is a cop, he`s in jail for murdering one of his wives, his last wife, Stacy Peterson, is still missing. He`s in jail. So, just because you`re a cop doesn`t mean you`re not going to be found guilty of murder.
But what`s very interesting is that look, that rage look you`re talking about, I remember being at a dinner party 15 years ago, and I saw that look in a woman`s boyfriend`s eye. We`re playing this little game, you put a name in a hat, question in the hat, like truth or dear kind of trivia. I saw that look on the question if she`s ever kissed a bad kisser and she said, no.
And her boyfriend just lost it. I told that girl`s mother, if he is not hitting her, he will hit her. I`ve seen that look myself before I had a boyfriend beat the living daylights out of me and I know what that looks. And that is that look.
And lo and behold that woman was a battered woman survivor. He ended up being arrested for attempted murder when he tried to kill her and her little daughter while they were in the car. And that happened within six months of me telling that woman`s mother if he hasn`t hit her yet, he will hit her.
PINSKY: Thank you, guys.
Next up, another exclusive, with a woman who says Brett Seacat, she worked with this kids, was arrogant and rude -- something we`ve all sort of seen here and pick up on, in addition to this sort of aggressive, manic quality.
And later, Jodi Arias news with a juror from her trial with a message to future jurors.
Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEACAT: If I wanted her out I would have divorced, just granted the divorce.
DETECTIVE: But you`d have lost contact with the boys like you have them now. That`s the whole key to this.
SEACAT: Oh, no.
Those boys loved their mom. I wouldn`t do that to them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Michelle Ward.
Joining us: Mark Eiglarsh, Jenny Hutt and now, Mandy Kupper. Mandy is Vashti`s friend. She`s the director of her children`s daycare center. She`s here exclusively with us.
Mandy, you actually saw Vashti one day before she died. Can you describe her demeanor? Does she seem like somebody who would be suicidal?
MANDY KUPPER, VASHTI`S FRIEND: When Vashti came in that morning on Friday, she came in about 7:15 to drop off the boys. And she was the same as she always is. She said good morning to me and I told her to have a nice day and nice weekend at work. So, she was the same as always.
PINSKY: And I understand that your relationship with her husband, the boy`s father, was less -- less affectionate, less cordial.
KUPPER: Yes. In the times that the boys were at tree house, I only saw him a hand full of times, when they came in and tour and at the Christmas program and that was it.
PINSKY: And, Mandy, I understand Brett called you on the Monday after Vashti`s death. What was that meeting like? Why was he there?
KUPPER: He had called me at about 8:00 in the morning and said, I know that you`ve probably heard what has gone on and I want to come in and tell you what really happened before you start hearing rumors.
PINSKY: And what was he like in that meeting? Yes.
KUPPER: At 11:00, when he came to that meeting, he -- the only time he showed emotion was when he was talking about the boys. He just told us what had happened and told us other information.
PINSKY: Mark, do you have a question for our guest?
EIGLARSH: Yes, Mandy. Obviously, she wasn`t suicidal. I think that`s clear. A whole other level what they`re alleging, is that she would kill herself, set the house on fire with her two children in the house. Did she ever say anything other than loving remarks about her own children?
KUPPER: No. She put those boys before everything. She -- you could tell they were her world.
She truly loved them. She was involved with our school. She was involved with the kids in the classrooms. She knew the kids that were in the classroom with her boys. She would not do anything to hurt them, in my opinion.
PINSKY: Jenny, go ahead.
EIGLARSH: How are the boys doing is the other question?
PINSKY: Do we know?
KUPPER: I haven`t seen the boys for about a year and a half now.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Jenny.
HUTT: So, on the day that Brett Seacat came in to tell you in fact what really had happened, what was his affect like? What was his demeanor like? Did he seem calculated or was he nervous?
PINSKY: Did he scare you?
KUPPER: I was taken aback by it because I would never have expected him to come in and tell me about it. He was very sullen, kind of emotionless, other than when he would talk about the boys.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Michelle.
WARD: I have a question. When he came in to explain what his version of what happened, did he mention this alleged affair? I mean, was he placing any blame on her or talking about her in any sort of disingenuous way?
KUPPER: And the only thing that he said was that she was deeply depressed. He never mentioned anything about affair or anything like that.
PINSKY: When he told you that she was deeply depressed, did you question that? Because that`s not how you experienced her at all.
KUPPER: I didn`t question it because he was just on a roll and he was just going.
PINSKY: All right. Well, thank you, Mandy.
Jenny, you want to ask something first before I say good-bye.
HUTT: Yes. Well, so he was believable to you in that moment?
KUPPER: No. No. It wasn`t believable to me just because I didn`t think that -- I didn`t feel like she would do that to herself or her children. That`s why -- that`s why I called and made a report to the police.
PINSKY: OK, excellent.
Mandy, thank you so much. Again, we`re trying to put the pieces together. We do appreciate you sharing. I know this is a tough, tough thing for everybody there.
WARD: Wait, can I ask one last question?
WARD: Did you think he did it when he came to confess to you what really happened?
KUPPER: I really didn`t know. I knew that she -- I know that -- didn`t feel like she would have done that to herself, though.
PINSKY: Thank you, guys. A reminder, please watch HLN tomorrow at 9:00 a.m. Eastern Time. There`s a very important hearing in the George Zimmerman case. HLN will be on top of that, again, at 9:00 a.m. Eastern Time. At issue is the voice identification of the critical 911 calls and whether or not expert testimony will be admissible.
Check out hlntv.com to check out evidence before the jury does.
Coming up, I`ve got some thoughts about Paris Jackson and what you might have heard headlines about her recently and reports that she called a suicide hotline.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Several of her boyfriends, they all described her having very quick shifting emotions, going from happy to mad to sad very quickly. And interestingly, I saw that myself within her journal entries within the same day. I could see a person who is very happy to shifting to be very upset.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Michelle Ward. And before we get more into Jodi, and by the way, that was a great description of somebody with a borderline personality disorder. I have a Twitter here I want to share with you that maybe explains a little something something.
This is from @LKON819 -- that`s maybe an I @DrDrew, "The extra gunshots resulted from the gun being burned, the bullets cooked off and then fired into Vashti." Michelle, does that make sense to you?
MICHELLE WARD, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: You know, I don`t know. I mean, I`m certain that they would have some sort of ballistic expert to come explain that, but that seems a little precise for that -- but maybe it`s a possibility.
PINSKY: We`ll check more into that, maybe from Ted, maybe tomorrow.
Also, back with us, Mark, Jenny, and Janine, and joining the panel, Marilou Allen-Coogan, she was juror number 16 of Jodi Arias trial. Last night, we reported that the defense is using Jodi`s mental illness diagnosis by the prosecution, right, to keep her off death row. Marilou, what do you make of that?
MARILOU ALLEN-COOGAN, JODI ARIAS JUROR: I think that the defense had five years to prove and use the mental illness defense. In my opinion, right now, they`re doing whatever they can. They`re using mental illness because their domestic violence and abuse defense didn`t work.
PINSKY: Marilou, you`re an emergency room nurse. And my understanding is, obviously, the autopsy photos were disturbing for everybody. I`m sure they were even tough for you working in the ER. But some of the jurors were deeply affected by them, were they not?
ALLEN-COOGAN: They were indeed. They were very graphic.
PINSKY: Are people doing OK? Do they need -- are they getting treatment for having been through this process?
ALLEN-COOGAN: Yes. The court did provide us with some counseling services. And, I know at least a couple have taken advantage of that.
PINSKY: And, I guess you had some objective advice for any future jury members?
ALLEN-COOGAN: Yes. Just do whatever you need to do to maintain your objectivity. For me, what worked, among other things, I purposely did not look at the gallery in the courtroom. My husband could have been there and I wouldn`t have known who was out there.
PINSKY: You didn`t see Travis` family or their reactions to what was going on in the courtroom?
ALLEN-COOGAN: I saw his family when I was going into and leaving the courtroom, but I purposely kept the emotional part out of it. That emotion was so raw out there.
PINSKY: Janine, you had a question for Marylou.
JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: Well, I`m interested for just that reason. Why would you not look at them? Because a lot of times we decide on the death penalty based on who`s surviving on either side of the fence. Why did you not look at the people that are surviving, especially before you came up with a verdict one way or the other?
ALLEN-COOGAN: My understanding of the instructions we had was that I was supposed to use what was presented as evidence and the testimony. And while I definitely know there was emotion out there, that was not supposed to play in my decision.
PINSKY: Michelle, you have a question?
WARD: Yes, I commend you for that, because when it comes to verdict, you`re absolutely not supposed to let emotion drive any of it. Of course, when it comes down to the penalty phase, it`s a little bit different. But, during verdict, that`s great. I`m glad you did that.
I have a question for you, though. Had the defense embraced the mental illness and said, yes, she`s kind of a sick woman, would you have voted differently?
ALLEN-COOGAN: Probably not. Something that people need to remember, just because a person is diagnosed with a mental illness doesn`t mean they`re not responsible for what they choose to do.
PINSKY: Right. I agree with you, Marilou. It`s almost -- whenever we talk about her having had a borderline disorder and connecting it to her behavior, I feel badly for anyone with the borderline diagnosis because they don`t behave like that. We, here in the behavior panel, will always speculate that she had psychopathy on top of the borderline.
And it`s those types that really don`t - Michelle, you back me up on this, understand the consequences of their action or don`t care.
WARD: I mean, most borderline people, they hurt themselves, but they very rarely hurt anybody else.
PINSKY: Mark, you have a question?
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: Yes, Marilou, million dollar question. The family is going to go through hell to go through this all over again. There`s going to be a huge expense to try to secure the death penalty. Four people were so entrenched in their position that nothing could change their mind.
With knowing what you know about what took place in that jury room, do you think that you`re going to find 12 people who could unanimously vote for death?
ALLEN-COOGAN: That`s hoping (ph) for. Absolutely. I don`t think that people just aren`t able to follow the instructions just because of all the notoriety of the case.
PINSKY: Wow. Jenny, last question, I have less than a minute.
EIGLARSH Are you saying the four didn`t follow the instructions.
ALLEN-COOGAN: No. That`s not what I`m saying.
PINSKY: Jenny, I`ve got to go to you. Quick.
JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: Yes. OK. Well, kudos to you for following the instructions. But, what I want to know is, do you feel as bonded to the other jurors as some of the other jurors who`ve been on this show have talked about the sort of united feelings having gone through this process together?
ALLEN-COOGAN: Absolutely. We e-mail back and forth. Several of us have gotten together. There is a bond here that nothing, nothing will be able to destroy. We`ve been through something together that will forever bond us.
PINSKY: And Marilou, my understanding is, you stand up with those that did not vote with the majority, that they were within their rights to do so, and you have no negative feelings about them?
PINSKY: Right. In fact, you would protect their rights. You feel upset when people attack them?
ALLEN-COOGAN: Yes. Absolutely.
PINSKY: Thank you, guys. Next up -- thank you so much, Marilou.
Nancy Grace is going to join me here. She tells us how a prison inmate brought her to tears. We will preview her behind bars special after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST, HLN`S NANCY GRACE: You have five children.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. My kids are grown and I have the five- year-old baby.
GRACE: Who has the baby?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My baby, the five-year-old is with my 20-year- old.
GRACE: How do you stand being away from your children?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This time around, I abandoned. So -- and I`m the one who used to be abandoned and I abandoned my family this time, so I feel really horrible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Michelle Ward. And before we get in to Nancy, I just want to say thank you to Marilou, the juror, from Jodi Arias case. Every juror we have spoken to and the alternates have been so thoughtful and so committed to their civic duty. It really kind of gives you faith in this little system we have, this jury system. But I just want to say thank you to her and the other jurors we`ve spoken to.
Now, HLN is spotlighting America behind bars this week. Nancy Grace went inside Estrella jail, home to about a thousand inmates including Jodi Arias. I talked to Nancy about the experience. Take a look at this.
GRACE: Thank you for inviting me on, but I will say that it was eye opening. You know, Dr. Drew, as a crime victim of violent crime and then a prosecutor for so many years in inner city, Atlanta, I`ve been behind bars plenty. I would say about 20 percent of my legal career has been spent behind bars, trying to find informants, rats, talk to witnesses, find out information.
But I could always leave whenever I felt like it, and that wasn`t the case in Estrella. But sitting there in Estrella jail for days on end, going all through the jail, hearing the doors slam behind me, then you go to another door, and it would slam and another and another until we were deep, deep down far into the jail with the deadliest women in Arizona, hearing their stories was very, very enlightening.
PINSKY: Let me ask you this. You know, it`s so fascinating the way you frame that, because my job is to empathize with somebody I`m sitting with no matter what awful things they may have done. That person is still a person. They still have sort of things that came to bear that resulted - -
GRACE: Oh, I absolutely agree with you that they`re still a person, but that was not my job as a prosecutor.
PINSKY: Now, I understand you spoke to another inmate who was a mother of twins and whose parental rights were cut off. I`m imagining given what I understand about the inmate population these days this was probably a drug-related incident. What kind of feelings did you have as a mom of twins interacting with a woman who`s been through something like that?
GRACE: I think I projected on to her how I feel about my twins, because if anything or anybody got between me and them, I would tear them to shreds, so God help me. But when you say it was a drug case, it was not her first, second or third drug case. So, I understand why she had to be behind bars.
On a first or even a second drug use, I advocate rehab and treatment. They are addicts. It was more important to her to commit a drug offense than to stay out from behind bars. She`s going to have a baby. One day, that baby will have to say to the question, where were you born? Is going to have to say, I was born in a maximum security facility, Estrella jail for women.
That`s where I was born. That is such a burden to put on a child. And you know what, Drew? Nothing matters more to me than my children growing up to be healthy and happy.
PINSKY: Well, it`s what makes it so hard for a non-addict to understand addiction. Here`s what my patient explains to me. They`ll say, I`ve never known -- I love my kids, but I never loved anything as much as drugs and alcohol. They`ll even say I can`t kill myself because killing myself would separate me from the thing I love the most, my drugs.
That`s how powerful that is. And you can`t get your head around that. It must be really hard for you.
GRACE: It is. It is very hard for me to think. Now, before I had my children, I might have been able to understand that, but now that I have them, no, I can`t -- there`s nothing more powerful for me than the love I have for them.
PINSKY: Here`s the thing, Nancy, for all of us to learn is these women were abandoned as children by their dads, by their moms. We don`t do that to our kids. You don`t do that to your kids. We all double down, commit ourselves to our families so we don`t create another generation of people that act out.
GRACE: The point is that the next generation that we raise has got to be strong enough to withstand temptations and addictions. I mean, it`s all around you on the TV, on the radio. You name it. Children are faced with it everywhere. And somehow, we have to make them stronger than the addictions.
PINSKY: A reminder, part two of Nancy`s special is tomorrow. Part two, tomorrow. Michelle, I think this will change Nancy a little bit. She still wants to tear anybody apart that got near her twins which I found interesting.
WARD: Good for her.
PINSKY: But it was good for her. I thought it gave her a little prospective.
WARD: She`s so prosecution-oriented. To see that these are actual real people which is exactly what your guest, Jim McGreevey said last night, former governor, that these are humans in there.
PINSKY: And they mostly addicts. And addiction is a disease and it has a treatment and it takes these poor people down.
Next, I talk to Nancy about the jail`s most infamous and famous inmate, Jodi Arias, after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: She takes on the personality of what she thinks you want her to be like. And she said as much on the stand, that whatever the man in her life was, she would be like a chameleon and she would become like that. So, I`m just very interested in what she projects behind bars.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A woman just does not go to the man you love and just totally do some crazy --
GRACE: He was going to take another woman to Cancun (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, that`s nothing. I mean, who knows what really happened, though.
GRACE: Why do you have to stab him in the back nine times.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nobody knows the real story, though. Nobody does. Only God and her and that man that`s dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, neuroscientist, Michelle Ward. Nancy Grace spent time in jail, the same jail that Jodi Arias calls home. I asked her how inmates feel about Jodi Arias.
GRACE: They love her! They love her!
PINSKY: How did you react to that?
GRACE: Well, they loved her, but they also said, well, you know, she`s showing us what she wants us to see. How do I react? Of course, they loved her, so did Travis, so did Daryl, so Johnny or whoever -- there`s a long list of people that love -- what`s with you and LaViolette? It`s not love --
PINSKY: I don`t know why I`m thinking of her today.
GRACE: I called her Alyce LaViolette because it sounds so beautiful. It`s Alyce LaViolette. OK. You got to force yourself to say it that way.
GRACE: Yes. Yes. That`s it. The other sounds so much more French, right? Anyway, they love her behind bars. And when you think about it, everybody loved her, so did Richard Samuels. Everybody loves her. Why? Because she`s a chameleon. She is who you want her to be. Only when Martinez pulled that mask off did we see what was really there.
That`s who we saw, the real Jodi Arias. And right now, you know, I don`t know what she wants from these women behind bars. Maybe she wants their food. Maybe she wants whatever they have. Maybe she wants friendship, protection. I don`t know what she wants from them, but she`s playing them honey like a fiddle.
PINSKY: My understanding, one inmate also said that nobody knows -- not just that they don`t -- we don`t know the real Jodi, but we don`t know the real story. What do they mean by that?
GRACE: What they mean by that is Jodi Arias has told different stories to different women behind bars. Stories that she didn`t tell on the witness stand which further undermines her story she told the jury. She`s told so many stories. I`m sure Martinez knows this. She`s a liar!
PINSKY: Amen. That`s one thing we do know about the real Jodi. That`s the only thing we know for sure.
GRACE: You know what I think, Drew, you know what, since nobody asked. I think when you take it all away, when you pull down that facade and you really look, I don`t think there`s anything there. I think that she has the basic instincts of a prehistoric animal, the savagery of an animal.
I really do, because she is willing to kill. She is willing to use people. And there`s no emotion. I`m sure you`ve got some fancy name for it, I don`t know what it`s going to be. What would you call it?
PINSKY: Well, we think she -- we know she has a borderline personality disorder. That`s what --
GRACE: I knew that would have a lot of syllables in it.
PINSKY: But psychopathy is what we think you`re talking about. She had both. That goal directed, cold-hearted, you know, inability to really care about anything but her own goals, that`s that piece you`re talking about.
GRACE: I mean, think of it like this. Have you ever picked up a frog and looked at him? See that look in his eyes. That`s what`s there. It`s like nothing. Nothing.
GRACE: No recognition.
GRACE: Yes, reptilian. Exactly. Exactly. I think if we took that beautiful face of hers off, she`s very physically attractive to some people, not me, but to some people, I think there`d be a giant lizard under there. You hit it right -- you hit the nail on the head.
PINSKY: Now, you see why we love Nancy Grace. Giant lizard, Michelle. That`s the diagnosis. I`ve missed it. It was staring me right in the face. She`s a giant lizard.
WARD: It really gives reptiles and amphibians a bad name, though.
PINSKY: So interesting, though. Listen, Nancy special part 2, "Nancy Grace Behind Bars," it airs tonight, the first part, tomorrow night. Be there right here on HLN. Last call up with my thoughts on Paris Jackson.
PINSKY: It`s time for the last call. I think people are aware Paris Jackson was rushed to the hospital today. CNN reports that a source close to the Jackson Family says Michael Jackson`s daughter cut one wrist and called a suicide hotline. Michelle, not surprising a young could be depressed after the death of her father.
The key dose that she get, treatment. Depression, unipolar or bipolar depression, the most serious manifestation to that (ph) is suicidality. Please, let`s get the Jackson family to take her to proper care, do you agree?
PINSKY: There we go.
WARD: I mean, she`s so young.
PINSKY: A reminder, an important hearing to Zimmerman case takes place tomorrow morning at 9:00 eastern on HLN. You`ll be able to watch it live. Thank you, Michelle for being here with me. Thank you all for watching. And, "HLN After Dark" begins right now.