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PIERS MORGAN LIVE
Hope for Sarah; 'On the Grill' With Newt Gingrich; Impaled Tornado Survivor
Aired June 5, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: This is PIERS MORGAN LIVE. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world.
Tonight breaking news at the National Security Administration is collecting the phone records of millions of Verizon customers under a secret court order issued in April. That sensational report comes from "The Guardian" newspaper in the UK. And we'll have more on that in a moment.
Also tonight, the first tropical storm and what promises to be (INAUDIBLE) scene forming right now in the Gulf of Mexico. Meanwhile, we're watching out for more flooding in the storm-ravaged Midwest.
Also a reprieve for a 10-year-old girl dying of cystic fibrosis. A judge's ruling this afternoon means she could be just days away from a life-saving lung transplant. I'll talk to Sarah Murnaghan's family.
And the impaled hero teacher who saved a roomful of children, including her young daughters from the tornado in Moore, Oklahoma. Suzanne Haley joins me exclusively.
Plus Michael Jackson's 15-year-old daughter tries to commit suicide just days after she shot this video in her bedroom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PARIS JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON'S DAUGHTER: I need serious help. I'm crazy. I am crazy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Was it a cry for help? And is it the first time?
Plus, who's on "The Grill" tonight. I'll tango with him on gun control, politics, the state of the Catholic Church. Tonight, I'm grilling Newt Gingrich on everything from the IRS to the shakeup in the White House in a circle. Are Republicans part of the problem? Could Chris Christie be the solution?
Also, my exclusive with a fisherman who reeled in what may be the biggest shark ever caught in America. Over 1300 pounds. The video they have given us exclusively is unbelievable. Think "Jaws" in 4-D.
Anyway, a lot to get to tonight but I begin with hope for 10- year-old girl Sarah Murnaghan, has cystic fibrosis and desperately needs a lung transplant that could save her life. But until now, federal rules have barred her from receiving an adult donor lung. A judge has issued a temporary restraining order this afternoon, making Sarah eligible for a transplant if an organ can be found.
And Sarah's aunt Sharon Ruddock joins me now.
Sharon Ruddock, thank you for joining me. I know that Sarah clearly is very seriously ill. So much so that her parents at her bedside tonight. And the condition is very serious. How important is it to the family that you've managed to have this legal success?
SHARON RUDDOCK, NIECE NEEDS A LIFE-SAVING LUNG TRANSPLANT: It is incredible for the family. This is the thing that could save Sarah's life and allow her to live a long life. Ten days is hopefully enough time for her to get lungs. She is very ill and it should put her at the top or near the top of the list here to get lungs so we're overjoyed.
MORGAN: For those who have not been following this, explain to me exactly the dilemma you found yourselves in.
RUDDOCK: Yes, it's pretty simple, oddly. They have a list of people waiting for lung transplants and they put all the adults in the front of the list and then the children in the back of the list. And what we asked for was the children to be in the same line with the adults, and to receive lungs based on how sick they are, just like the adults do. So we asked for equality for children.
MORGAN: And the way they assess this is that everybody gets a rating who needs potentially a new lung. And you're not asking for special treatment, as I understand it. You're just asking for Sarah to receive a transplant in recognition of her place in the ratings for what she currently has in terms of her condition.
RUDDOCK: Exactly. So she has a very high LAS score, which should put her near the front of the list, but she's been stuck at the back because she is 13 months shy of being 12. And we find that arbitrary. We asked a judge and he agreed. And so now she's in line with everybody else, all the adults and teenagers.
MORGAN: Why, were you told, that she was ineligible (sic) for this? I mean, what is the argument that stops somebody like Sarah from having this kind of transplant from an adult donor?
RUDDOCK: Yes, it was a very puzzling argument, which was they didn't have enough data. There weren't enough sick kids for them to know if their scoring system mathematically predicted how ill she was. So rather than try to resolve that, they just put all the kids at the back of the line.
MORGAN: But Secretary Sebelius obviously ruled against this and this ruling today has gone against that. What is your view as a family of the secretary's position?
RUDDOCK: We don't understand it. We haven't understood it. We've always asked for this rule to be swept away for all kids. And we're constantly sort of positioned as looking for something special for our girl. But we really want all kids to benefit from this. And we don't know why she hasn't acted faster or sooner.
MORGAN: There was a wonderful moment when Sarah was told the news, and I want to just play to our viewers in full that moment. Because it was very poignant today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
She's an adorable little girl. She is obviously a great fighter, too. And obviously, she's been sick a long time. It's been a great stressful time for all the family. And she is obviously not out of the woods now. They may not find a donor lung.
How hopeful are you, from all the experts have told you, that you may get one?
RUDDOCK: We're very hopeful. Being on the adult list is a very good place to be. Being in line with everyone else with a high score is very good. We are very, very hopeful. Unfortunately, in the last hour she has taken a little bit of a turn for the worse and got sicker which is why both of her parents are, you know, really at her bedside right now.
But we're hopeful that the (INAUDIBLE) doctors or Children of Philadelphia can keep her going long enough for lungs. And we think -- we think we'll get there. It's the first time we've had hope in, you know, a month.
MORGAN: Sharon Ruddock, thank you so much for joining me. Please send our very best to all the family and obviously Sarah in particular.
RUDDOCK: Thank you.
MORGAN: And we're all rooting for her. Thank you for joining me.
And now I want to bring in Dr. Arthur Caplan. He's the head of Biotechs at New York University and Lagone Medical Center. This is a real dilemma, isn't it, for the medical profession which is why Secretary Sebelius took the position that she did? Didn't want to set, I guess, a precedent against what is currently the law.
Explain to me why the law says there can be nobody under the age of 12 in receipt of an adult lung.
DR. ARTHUR CAPLAN, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY LANGONE MEDICAL CENTER: So the argument has been the outcomes are worse for kids under 12 who get adult lungs. Sometimes the lungs don't fit from an adult, they're too big. So you can only use a piece. And when that's done, it raises the risk of infection.
Kids are harder with lungs, because they also seem to be a more difficult management problem for immuno-suppression. We just heard, the data is not great on this. But I think people looked at it and said, the adult outcomes are better, we're going to get the most lives saved with the scarce supply of lungs, prioritize the adults.
MORGAN: I mean, there've been a lot of people watching who say, regardless of the risks, you should always prioritize children.
CAPLAN: Yes. Yes.
MORGAN: I mean, that's the normal medical reaction. The reason this has captured public imagination is it kind of flies in the face of that.
CAPLAN: And I understand that fully and I've argued in the system that we ought to give kids points, just because they're kids. There is a certainly argument -- a fairness that way. But I think the system has also tried to say, we don't get many lungs. When someone gets one, somebody else doesn't. And that's true here, too. If she does get her lung, someone won't. Let's get the biggest bang for the buck.
And I understand that position full well. I think what the Secretary Sebelius said was, I'm not going to get in the middle of this because I don't have all of the medical facts. I understand the plight of the little girl. The judge has basically said, I don't have all of the medical facts either, but it just seems arbitrary to me so I'm going to open the door right now.
MORGAN: If Sarah finds a donor and it's successful and she makes a recovery from her current and very serious condition, there will a huge clamor to simply change this rule permanently.
MORGAN: If that was the circumstance, would you be in favor of that?
CAPLAN: I would. I think you should give kids more points. And I think if the data shows small survival differences, I think a lot of Americans would say OK, let's put kids in there and give them a shot just because they're kids.
The problem, Piers, looking at this whole thing is, a lot of other people may be saying, you know, I think the rules aren't fair to me.
CAPLAN: Whatever I -- you know, at the bottom of the list because I'm not sick enough or I drink too much, or whatever it is. Are they all going to head off to court? Did the judge inadvertently open the door to weakening the system overall, which has worked for a long time to distribute resources. These are miserably tough ethics problems. Somebody is going to live, someone is going to die as a result. You start chopping at the rules, taking them out in the hands of doctors, putting them in the hands of judges, could be trouble.
MORGAN: Dr. Caplan, thank you very much.
CAPLAN: My pleasure.
MORGAN: Now to our breaking weather news. In a year of extreme and violent storms, the National Hurricane Center says the first tropical storm of the year is forming in the Gulf of Mexico tonight. Tropical storm Andrea is about 310 miles southwest of Tampa in Florida. And moving north at about three miles an hour.
So far, it has maximum sustained winds of 40 miles an hour. The residents of the west coast of Florida are under a tropical storm warning and the watch extends up through North Carolina. The center of Andrea is expected to reach Florida tomorrow afternoon and forecasters fear this hurricane season, which began June 1st and runs through the end of November, will be particularly active.
Now to an incredible story of bravery and survival in the middle of one of the biggest twisters America has seen for years. Teacher Suzanne Haley was in a classroom in Moore, Oklahoma, when the catastrophic tornado hit. She protected all the children, including her daughters, 6-year-old Miranda and 10-year-old Ashland, from the 210-mile-an-hour winds, even though she'd been impaled herself by the leg of a desk.
She faces a long and difficult road to recovery. And Suzanne, Miranda and Ashland Haley join me now for an exclusive interview.
Welcome to you all ladies.
SUZANNE HALEY, IMPALED SAVING CHILDREN FROM TORNADO: Good evening, Piers.
MORGAN: Suzanne, first of all, the pictures -- I can still see flashing before my head of you with this terrible spike through your leg. Obviously very shocking at the time. My first question, how are you?
S. HALEY: I'm doing well. Just taking on new treatment and just taking it day by day. And the prognosis is looking good for full recovery.
MORGAN: Obviously there was another big tornado that hit your area only a few days ago. Where were you when that happened?
S. HALEY: I had just been released from the hospital. I had to go back and went -- had been released that evening, just in time to get back home and get into our storm cellar.
MORGAN: What were you thinking?
S. HALEY: So we got to ride out and -- just not again. Just really not wanting to deal with it, and, of course, with the injury already, it was -- it was definitely hard getting in and out of the storm cellar. And, you know, luckily we sustain -- we didn't sustain any damage or power outage so we were very lucky in that -- in that sense. MORGAN: Now let --
S. HALEY: That was the last storm that we encountered.
MORGAN: Right, well, extremely fortunate and very glad to hear that. Let me turn to your daughters.
Ashlynn, now you're 10 years old. You were at school when this first tornado hit. What was that experience like for you?
ASHLYNN HALEY, SUZANNE'S 10-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER: It was -- I never -- I had never gone through that and it was kind of hard. And Miranda didn't scream. I was the one screaming, and she said it really hurt her ear drums. So --
MORGAN: So, Miranda, you were the -- you were the brave one. Why weren't you scared?
MIRANDA HALEY, SUZANNE'S 6-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER: Well, I was scared. I was just crying and she was screaming. And she -- hurt me.
MORGAN: There's nothing worse, is there, than your sister screaming? I've had that experience.
Now, Ashlynn, did you realize how serious the tornado was at the time?
A. HALEY: No. We had just gotten done with recess and we were doing talent show rehearsal. And we had to leave because everybody was getting checked out. And it wouldn't have worked like the music teacher had wanted it. So after we had left -- and we were in the hallways when one of the other teachers that my mom worked with came and got me. And the teacher that she worked with said -- so --
MORGAN: And did you realize, Ashlynn, that your mom had been a hero in protecting all of you?
A. HALEY: After -- I was -- I was kind of the one who noticed that it was through her leg. Because she thought something was on top of her. And she didn't know at all.
MORGAN: And, Miranda, Miranda, what did you think when you saw your poor mother had this terrible spike in her leg?
M. HALEY: Well, I didn't see it in her leg. It just looked like it was under her leg.
MORGAN: Pretty scary to look at, huh?
M. HALEY: Yes.
(LAUGHTER) MORGAN: Suzanne, obviously a great relief, I think, to be home now. And hopefully you won't get hit by anymore tornadoes. We're going to keep our fingers crossed for that.
How is the community generally coping with it all, do you think?
S. HALEY: I think, as Oklahomans, we cope together. As best we can. It's everything and everything to be living within this community with -- when this -- when disaster strikes because ultimately all we have is each other, and everything that we might have lost are just things. And, you know, the people in our lives and in the community are more important.
Everybody is coming together, you know, willing to help. And you just -- you really find out what is important about the community you live in. And I wouldn't change it for anything.
MORGAN: Well, Suzanne, look, I'm delighted to see you, I'm thrilled you're back home. And you're making a good recovery. Lovely to meet your daughters.
S. HALEY: Thank you.
MORGAN: Thank you to Ashlynn and Miranda. It was lovely to meet you both. And I wish you all the very best in recovering in your community down there in Moore, Oklahoma.
S. HALEY: Thank you so much.
MORGAN: Coming up, a real-life jaws. My exclusive with the fisherman who reeled in what may be the biggest shark ever caught in America. The video is unbelievable.
And when we come back, Paris Jackson's cry for help. Why Michael Jackson's 15-year-old daughter cut her wrists in an attempted suicide effort after making this video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: Thanks for watching. And wasting, like half an hour of your time on me. I sincerely appreciate it. Because usually people get bored of me by then.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Breaking news tonight. Reports that through a secret court order, the Obama administration is collecting the phone records of millions of Verizon customers. That's been reported by "The Guardian" newspaper in the UK. They said the court order shows all the information is going to the National Security Agency. CNN has reached out to multiple sources to confirm the story, including the intelligence community and the FBI. Verizon has also refused to comment on the story.
I'm sure that Newt Gingrich will have a lot to say about this breaking news. The former speaker of the House is On The Grill tonight and joins me now. Mr. Speaker, welcome to you.
NEWT GINGRICH, FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: Good to be with you.
MORGAN: Let me get your reaction to this breaking story. It seems -- well, coming after everything we've been seeing with Eric Holder and his gang with the Associated Press, Fox News and so on, another extraordinary revelation that the Obama administration has been targeting almost all Verizon customers. What do you make of it?
GINGRICH: Well, look, I think if what you're trying to do is avoid the kind of terrorism that occurred in Boston or the kind of terrorism that almost occurred in Times Square a couple years ago, I'm for whatever it takes as long as it's restricted to the National Security Agency and doesn't get involved in looking for criminal behavior or other kind of things.
The problem we have is between the total failure of Attorney General Holder and his team and the IRS scandal and all the other things we're watching, why would anyone trust the government to keep its word? I mean, in an ideal world, if you had had a trustworthy government and they said the only purpose is to look for terrorism, well, terrorism is a multinational project. And you've got to be aware that there are Americans engaged in terrorism. And some of the outcomes, a nuclear weapon, a chemical weapon, can be so horrible that you would be willing to, for the narrow purpose of counterterrorism, allowing the National Security Agency to look at it.
The problem is, given everything we've learned recently about the current bureaucracy, why would you trust them? And that's why I think this is part of an ongoing scandal of bureaucratic government.
MORGAN: OK. But just to clarify, your reaction to this specific revelation tonight about the NSA collecting phone records from Verizon is that you support it in isolation.
GINGRICH: If the -- if the necessity for tracking down terrorists in the United States is that the National Security Agency limited only to counterterrorism is gathering information, then I would support it. Because it's part of a, frankly, worldwide conflict. It's a war.
MORGAN: But your concern is you can't trust the Obama administration because of their record in terms of how they may deal with that information.
GINGRICH: Well, and frankly, I think increasingly I distrust all bureaucracies. Because the record we have with the IRS, the record we have at the (INAUDIBLE) protection agency where we just learned today that we're actually giving individual names of farmers to activist lawyers. I mean, every time we turn around, there is a new bureaucratic, big government scandal that I think is deeper and more than President Obama. I think it's part of the whole problem of giant government. So I would want to know that this was walled off, and I would want some kind of criminal sanctions against anybody who used this information for anything, except counterterrorism.
MORGAN: See, what I've got here, I've got a story here, which is from 2006, "USA Today," the National Security Agency see has been secretly collecting phone records of tens of millions of Americans using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and Bell South. Now, that was obviously under George Bush's administration.
And the critics will say all right, Mr. Speaker, you're criticizing the Obama administration for doing this, although you're saying it could be acceptable, because you -- because you don't think you could trust them. Other people say, hang on, hang on, what about the Bush administration who took us to war in Iraq over what turned out to be a pack of lies about Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction? Why would you trust them anymore with that information? So, isn't it like for like?
GINGRICH: Let me go back to 2006. You'll find I said if it is narrowly restricted to terrorism, it's acceptable. So, my position hasn't changed. I think - and by the way --
MORGAN: No, I get that, I get that. That wasn't my question.
GINGRICH: Let me just say for the record --
MORGAN: My question was, why would you trust -- why would you trust the Bush administration --
GINGRICH: I didn't.
MORGAN: -- given their terrible breakdown of intelligence and information over weapons of mass destruction? Why would you trust them anymore than you would trust the Obama administration with the same records?
GINGRICH: Let me say, first of all, I don't believe Colin Powell lied. I don't believe that that's an accurate statement. I think they said what they thought was true at the time. But that's irrelevant.
I believe that there should be criminal sanctions against anyone who takes a national security tap and uses it for any other purpose. So I think there should be an iron wall between the FBI, criminal prosecutions, the Justice Department and the national security apparatus.
I've said this all along. I don't trust the Bush administration. I don't trust any big government.
GINGRICH: I think big governments are inherently dangerous. That's why as a confident, I like much smaller government, because I distrust big bureaucratic governments. They run amuck. MORGAN: Well, let's --
GINGRICH: That's a nonpartisan statement.
MORGAN: I'm staggered. I love the fact you didn't trust the Bush administration.
But let's move on to Susan Rice, who has had this big promotion today, which has got the Republicans all in a tizzy. What is your reaction to this news?
GINGRICH: The president of the United States has decided that he wants as his national security adviser a person who went on five shows in one Sunday morning and miss -- you go back to lies.
I don't know that Susan Rice lied. I think she may have been misinformed by the White House and the State Department, and she may have accurately reported what she thought was the truth. What I do know is, what she said to the American people about Benghazi was false -- completely, clearly, unequivocally false.
Now, what the president has said is -- and this is his prerogative. He would rather have one of his close friends who he believes in as his national security adviser. And if that means that there is no centrism, there's no reasoning out, there's no bipartisanship, that's his prerogative. The cost of it will be that no one on the Republican House and no one among the Republican senators in the Senate are going to believe the national security adviser. And that's a problem.
MORGAN: What if he had had appointed instead Colin Powell? Or Condoleezza Rice? In a wonderful display of bipartisanship, would you have had exactly the same view?
GINGRICH: No --
MORGAN: Given that they had also, of course, unfortunately passed on completely misleading information to the American public, too. My argument to you, Mr. Speaker, I think that would be crazy. I think both Condoleezza Rice and Colin Powell are incredibly able people who would do a good job. As I think Susan Rice is entitled to show us she can do. What is the difference?
GINGRICH: Piers, the difference is you're totally confusing the situations. At the time that Condoleezza Rice and Colin Powell were describing what everyone agreed at the time -- excuse me -- was the best intelligence information. It happened to be wrong. At the time that Susan Rice was on television on five consecutive shows, the same morning, during a presidential campaign, we now know from the release of hundreds of documents, the information she was getting was false. Now I didn't say --
MORGAN: But what is the difference? What is the difference?
GINGRICH: Well, the first -- I said part of the difference is, there is no question that the Obama administration and Secretary Clinton's staff systematically lied to the American people knowingly. I don't believe anyone has suggested that Colin Powell said anything at the United Nations that he knew to be false.
MORGAN: Yes, but my question is, do you believe Susan Rice lied? Because it's her that's got the job. That is the like for like I'm trying to draw a parallel between.
GINGRICH: I have no idea. I just told you. I have no idea whether at the time --
MORGAN: But there is no evidence she did, though, is there?
GINGRICH: That's why I said. There is no way of knowing whether she believed what she had been told by the national security apparatus. It's clear, however, that virtually everybody on the right will regard her appointment -- because it's not a nomination -- her appointment, as a sign that this president has no interest in bipartisanship.
By the way, if he had appointed Colin Powell or Condoleezza Rice, I think that would have staggered this city and dramatically changed the interpretation of Barack Obama's foreign policy.
MORGAN: Well, I completely agree with that. Let's watch a clip. This is Gloria Borger, my colleague's forthcoming interview with Mitt Romney, specifically about his reaction to the Susan Rice appointment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Susan Rice was controversial in the whole Benghazi affair. She is now going to be the next national security adviser. Do you have any reaction to that?
MITT ROMNEY, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I find that a disappointing appointment on the part of the president. I think what she did was to very seriously mislead the American people about what happened in Benghazi. My greatest concern about the Benghazi events was the fact that there was not a rescue effort attempted. And that is very troubling to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: You see, here's the thing, Mr. Speaker. I agree with what Mitt Romney said there about what is most troubling about Benghazi: the failure of the rescue attempt, the failure to shore up the defenses before it happened and everything else. I totally agree with all the Republican attacks on that. The one thing I have a real problem with is targeting Susan Rice, who appears to have been the innocent pawn in the game of disinformation.
GINGRICH: I hesitate to say this, Piers, because I'm concerned about your heart. But I think I actually agree with you.
MORGAN: Good grief! It's taken two-and-a-half years. GINGRICH: Well, look, I don't know of any evidence that Susan Rice knowingly lied to the American people. Because we don't know whether -- I don't think anybody walked up to her and said by the way, here are the totally false talking points that we have come up with.
I suspect she believed these are the talking points she had been given by the White House, she assumed they were serious talking points. And she went out and in a very professional way, did her job. I don't think you and I are that far apart.
I do disagree with you, though, about the fact that I do believe everything we have learned about the process for 48 hours of the White House and the State Department coercing the Central Intelligence Agency in order to create a false set of data for Susan Rice, I find that as troubling as the military failures in Benghazi. So I do think both of those are very troubling.
MORGAN: Okay. Let's take a break. You can see more of Gloria Borger's interview on Mitt Romney on Jake Tapper's THE LEAD tomorrow at 4:00 p.m.
Newt, stay with me On The Grill and stay nicely grilled in the break. I'm going to talk to you about guns and background checks and why they didn't stop a mentally ill young man who had be in and out of institutions from buying an AR-15 assault rifle from Wal-Mart.
MORGAN: Back now on "The Grill" is Newt Gingrich.
So let's talk about this case. It's actually two years old, but it's become relevant again today, because the parents involved gave an interview to CBS. I'm going to play a clip in a moment. But it involves a young man called Blaec Lammers who -- his parents discovered had bought a gun for $865. He was seriously mentally ill. He had been committed, voluntarily, by his parents, seven times to mental institutions. Was able to go to Wal-Mart and buy an AR-15 assault rifle.
Here's what they said to CBS.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRICIA LAMMERS, BLAEC LAMMERS' MOTHER: I found a receipt that said "shotgun $865".
BILL LAMMERS, BLAEC LAMMERS' FATHER: And I said that's not a shotgun, that's an assault weapon. That's an AR-15.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Blaec, who's been committed --
T. LAMMERS: Seven times.
B. LAMMERS: Seven times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seven times in a mental hospital. B. LAMMERS: Legally bought an assault weapon from the place that he walked in with a butcher knife.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That Wal-Mart.
B. LAMMERS: Yes, same one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Now the parents reported him because he had allegedly admitted he was planning to launch a murderous shooting spree in a movie theater during the weekend of the opening of the new "Twilight" film at the time. He'd actually bought a ticket to the screening of "Breaking Dawn Part II." It could have been another Aurora.
Here's the thing, Mr. Speaker. He went to Wal-Mart, and perfectly legally bought this assault rifle to try and perpetrate an atrocity, and the background check they did on him did not pick up any of the seven times that he had voluntarily committed to an institution, because he had never been involuntarily committed, which I find absolutely ridiculous. What is your view?
NEWT GINGRICH, FORMER SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Well, this is going to be a bad show because I agree with you.
Not expecting that.
GINGRICH: Well, we're not arguing. But notice what we're saying. The mental health laws partially under the pressure of privacy groups and partially because we de-institutionalize so many people over the last 30 years. The mental health laws of now created in a zone in which people can be extraordinarily dangerous, both to themselves, and to the rest of us. And there's no way of being able to report it.
This happened in the worst mass shooting in modern times, which was at Virginia Tech and the psychiatrist who had been seeing the shooter felt constrained by state law from reporting how dangerous he thought the shooter was. So I agree with you. I think people who have substantial mental problems or mental challenges should, in fact, show up on a background check.
And I think that it should be virtually impossible for somebody with a record such as this young man to buy a weapon. I don't disagree with you about that at all.
MORGAN: I can't quite believe we've gone through an entire 15 minutes here with you agreeing with everything I'm saying. Let's --
GINGRICH: You may never have me back again. MORGAN: One final chance to try and find -- and answer very quickly, if you don't mind. Michelle Obama taking on that heckler. Did she do a good job or not a good job?
GINGRICH: I actually didn't watch it closely enough to have a clue.
MORGAN: Well, let's play it. Here we are. I'll play it for you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY: But I'm leaving. So you all decide.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, no.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need your husband --
OBAMA: All right, you guys.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, please don't leave. No.
OBAMA: So let me make the point that I was making before. We are here for our kids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: So there you have it. I mean, pretty ballsy. She got off the stage, remonstrated directly with the heckler, appealed to the crowd, who are you going to support, got the right answer, went back and finish the speech.
GINGRICH: Yes, I would give her, you know, pretty good marks for that. But I've had probably hundreds of town hall meetings over the years. My basic approach has always been to allow the crowd to shout down the heckler. If you're -- if you are pleasant and polite, in about 40 seconds, the crowd figures out who the bad guy is, and they shut him up. And so she probably -- if she does more of this, my only advice would be give the crowd a little more leeway, they'll shut the heckler up.
Excuse me, she doesn't have to be the bad person. She doesn't have to go out -- but I think her spirit is right. There's no reason any person who is trying to make a presentation has to tolerate some person getting up and being obnoxious, mean-spirited and destructive. And so in that sense, I commend her for taking them head-on.
MORGAN: Well, thankfully, I would never interrupt any of my guests. So -- I completely agree with you.
Mr. Speaker Gingrich, it's been a pleasure as always to talk to you.
GINGRICH: Good to talk to you.
MORGAN: When we come back, Michael Jackson's daughter calls a suicide hotline, cuts her wrists, and is rushed to hospital. Is it a cry for help?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: I need serious help. I'm crazy. I am crazy. Anyways, if this helped, I doubt it did, yes, so this is me when I'm done with my makeup.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Michael Jackson's 15-year-old daughter Paris in a video shot and uploaded to YouTube just a few days ago. This morning she was rushed to a hospital after cutting one of her wrists. She'd called a suicide hot line and the counselor called 911.
Is this a cry for help and how serious is it?
Joining me now is "Access Hollywood's" Shaun Robinson and Dr. Charles Sophie, the medical director of the L.A. County Department of Children and Family Services.
Welcome to you both.
Shaun, let me start with you because you've been reporting that Paris may have even used a meat cleaver to cut herself. Tell me what we know.
SHAUN ROBINSON, WEEKEND CO-ANCHOR/CORRESPONDENT, "ACCESS HOLLYWOOD": That's right, Piers. About 10:30 last night, Paris started tweeting these kind of cryptic tweets. One of them said, "Why are tears -- why do they taste salty?" And then about 11:30 p.m., she was quoting a Beatles' lyric, "My trouble seems so far away. Yesterday all my troubles seems so far away. Now it looks as though they're here to stay."
We do know about two hours after that, as you said, a call was placed to 911. Paris, from what one of the family members tells us, actually called a suicide prevention hotline and then a call was made to 911, Piers, about 1:30, was transported to a local hospital, then taken to UCLA Medical Center.
Ironically, piers, this is where her father, Michael Jackson, was taken when he died.
MORGAN: Right. ROBINSON: So the family members, they're saying, this is really a cry, an extreme cry for help, rather than an actual desire to hurt herself. But we know Paris has been going through definitely a lot lately. The wrongful death trial of Michael Jackson is under way. And this little girl has a lot of pressure on her and things happening in other areas of her life.
ROBINSON: So many people very, very concerned about her today.
MORGAN: Dr. Sophie, a couple of theories have been put out as to why she did this. This one that she was furious she couldn't go to a Marilyn Manson concert. Kind of thing you could imagine a teenager being upset about, but maybe not to this degree. Also that she had had -- got together recently with Debbie Rowe, who, of course, was the natural mother. And that this had caused a rift with her brother, Prince, who wants nothing to do with her.
Are these the kind of things from your experience that can trigger in a young teenage girl like Paris with the background of her father's death and so on this kind of dramatic cry for help, if that's what it is?
DR. CHARLES SOPHIE, MEDICAL DIRECTOR, L.A. COUNTY DEPARTMENT OF CHILDREN AND FAMILY SERVICES: Absolutely. They're layered upon each other. So one may not do it. Two may not do it. But three and four, and these are very deep family issues that she has been struggling with, I'm sure, for a long time. And as Shaun said, there is a lot of pressure on this young girl. There is a lot of eyeballs on this young girl. So, yes, these are the kind of things that can lead to these cries for help.
MORGAN: Katherine Jackson --
ROBINSON: Also, Piers, let me just jump in here --
MORGAN: I just want to read a statement that she -- from Katherine Jackson, who obviously is Michael's mother, Paris' grandmother, "Being a sensitive 15-year-old it's difficult no matter who you are, it's especially difficult when you lose the person closest to you. Paris is physically fine and getting appropriate medical attention. Please respect her privacy."
Shaun, I mean, how much do you think goes back to the fact that she lost her father who she was incredibly close to?
ROBINSON: Yes, absolutely. I mean, the loss of her father has been weighing on this girl ever since the day it happened. We know that. But also, Piers, I talked to several of Paris' friends, students who actually go to school with Paris, and one of the things that they talked about is how this girl, she has described herself as a loner. And in school, she has even talked about being bullied and not fitting into certain groups. It was heartbreaking to hear some of the stories.
One person said that she was friends with popular kid in school and when that relationship ended, Paris felt more like an outcast. So we can't help but wonder, what are the things that are happening to her in school that many students deal with, like bullying and being an outcast.
MORGAN: Right. Also I --
ROBINSON: And how they weighed in on this.
MORGAN: I also interviewed Joe Jackson, her grandfather. He said this about Paris, quite interesting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE JACKSON, PARIS JACKSON'S GRANDFATHER: Paris is -- even Michael said, she is a piece of work, you know. Because, you know, most girls are hard to raise. Piers, they're hard to raise. They're more harder than boys. But she's a nice girl. And most girls take to their father anyway, too, you know. But she's -- she -- she's a good girl. But you have to work with her a little bit, too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Can't be easy being Michael Jackson's daughter. And we all wish Paris all the very, very best, a speedy recovery.
Thank you both, Shaun Robinson and Dr. Sophie, for joining me.
MORGAN: Appreciate it.
Coming next, forget about the movie "Jaws." We've got the guys who reeled in the real thing. A record-sized 1300-pound shark. They join me exclusively to tell all about their deep-sea adventure and they've got lots of extraordinary exclusive video. This will shiver your timbers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're going to need a bigger boat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: A classic scene from "Jaws," and one that my next guests are probably thinking about when they snagged a 1300-pound Mako shark up the coast of California. They're here tonight with their real-life "Jaws" story.
Joining me exclusively in their first national interview, Jason Johnston, who caught the shark, Matt Potter, that came to the boat and help to bring it in, and Corey Knowlton is a co-host of Jim Shockey's "The Professionals" on the Outdoor Channel.
Gentlemen, welcome and congratulations on this stunning, stunning catch. You've given us some video of all this. And it really is the stuff that will make sure most Americans never swim in the ocean again. We're looking at it now. An absolutely enormous shot.
Tell me your reaction. Matt, you were the captain, when you first knew you've got it, what was your thought process?
MATT POTTER, HELPED CATCH 1,300 POUND MAKO SHARK: When I first saw that shark come up to the boat, just a massive size, I knew it had to be something really, really huge, and I was thinking world record, but I didn't want to say it out loud until we got it back to the docks.
MORGAN: Do you know yet if it's a world record?
POTTER: We did not know it was a world record. We knew it was the biggest fish we had ever seen, and we've caught them almost up to 1,000 pounds before. So knowing that, and seeing how much larger this one was, and knowing what the actual world record size was, we knew it was going to be something close.
MORGAN: Yes, what I meant was, do you know yet, now that you have had it examined and weighed and stuff, do you know if you've broken the report?
POTTER: It's a pending world record right now. We need to submit the proper paperwork, and send in line samples and different documents that are required for that.
Corey, you know, you guys are not amateurs of this. You've been out many times. Jason I know hasn't, but for you, what was -- what were you thinking? This is the big one, right? This is like the you've dreamed of always catching. But wasn't it terrifying?
COREY KNOWLTON, HOST, "JIM SHOCKEY'S THE PROFESSIONALS" ON OUTDOOR CHANNEL: Yes, it -- it is terrifying, but any time you're that close to an apex predator or a food source, you really feel like you're just floating out there, and it's a very big shark teeth, they move around like lightning. It was an amazing experience, we worked for four years to try to find one this big. So we really wanted to provide it for research and do a lot so people can learn more about the species.
MORGAN: And Jason, you're more of the amateur fisherman. What the hell was going through your mind?
JASON JOHNSTON, CAUGHT 1,300 POUND MAKO SHARK: I was horrified.
I came out for just a -- an average day of fishing and never dreamed I would have something like that on the end of a poll. (LAUGHTER)
MORGAN: So you're thinking, what have I gotten myself into? Did you fear for your life? I mean I would if I was on that boat.
JOHNSTON: Well, I was expecting something a lot smaller. Not 1300 pounds.
KNOWLTON: Yes, the day before, Piers, he actually caught a 250- pounder and he fought it really, really hard, and he was setting there, he looked at it and said, I would no way near, want to have anything to do with a world record with one of these things. The very next day it comes up to the boat. We look at it, and I look at Matt, I could tell in his eyes, I was like, this thing is huge.
And he goes -- I looked at Jason, like, this is why I brought you here for, to have a good time. He's like, well, I guess if it's anybody, it'll be me.
MORGAN: That's -- now, Matt --
Now, Matt, you're known as Mako Matt, and this is the biggest Mako in the history -- ever been caught. What is the technique for actually getting one of these things out of the water and on to a boat and taking it home with you?
POTTER: OK. So when we -- when we get them to the boat, we'll actually have a guy that will grab the leader. On this occasion it was Frankie (INAUDIBLE). He'll grab the leader of the -- of the rod and pull it really close to the boat. And then we'll use fly gaps which are a big hook on the poll that has a real -- attached to the boat to hold the fish to the boat. We then have to basically tow the fish in because it's too big to actually get in the boat safely.
MORGAN: Absolutely extraordinarily.
Well, look, chaps, thank you so much for joining me. It's an amazing, amazing thing that you've done. I'm looking at pictures now, it's one of the most dangerous, alarming creatures I have ever set eyes on. The idea that you were in the middle of the ocean, trying to reel that in, quite extraordinary.
But congratulations. I hope you get the record confirmed and long may you continue with your fishing. Thank you very much.
POTTER: Thanks a lot, sir.
JOHNSTON: Thank you.
KNOWLTON: Thank you.
MORGAN: And we'll be right back after this short break. When you've all recovered.
MORGAN: Tomorrow night I sit down with Christine Quinn, who's hoping to make history as New York's first female and openly gay mayor. She'll talk candidly about her personal life, including her struggles with bulimia and alcohol.
That's Christine Quinn on "The Grill" tomorrow night. That's all for us tonight. Anderson Cooper starts right now.