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Jury Foreman Speaks Out

Aired June 12, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, outrage. The man who voted to spare Jodi Arias` life comes forward with shocking comments.

Jodi was abused. Jodi is not a menace, that being stupid isn`t reason enough to kill her. Now, he is receiving death threats.

Plus, a trust fund kid on trial for murder. Did he kill this beautiful designer because of his reported relationship with hookers?

Let`s get started.


PINSKY: Good evening.

My co-host is attorney and Sirius XM radio host Jenny Hutt.

And we have some breaking news in the Jodi Arias case. But first, Jodi`s jury foreman has come forward speaking about the anxiety of signing the guilty verdict form.

Imagine how he feels now after saying this to KTVK`s Mike Watkiss.


JURY FOREMAN: OK, so, this is the exclusive, because I`ve never said it on air before. I did come down on the side of life.

COURT CLERK: We, the jury, duly impound and sworn in the above- entitled action upon our oaths, unanimously find that the defendant should be sentenced, no unanimous agreement, signed foreperson.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To not be able to come to a consensus and actually issue a unanimous verdict in the penalty phase was just -- I took it very personally. I was so committed to making sure that we could work together. We had done so well as a cohesive work group.

COURT CLERK: We, the jury, duly impaneled and sworn in the above- entitled action, upon our oaths, do find that the aggravating factor especially cruel has been proven.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If I were able to give my perspective and my theory of how I thought things happened, you know, maybe it could have swayed a couple more people.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The lack of remorse, I did not feel that there was any remorse. And so, there just wasn`t a redeeming factor for me.

COURT CLERK: As to count one, first-degree murder, guilty.


PINSKY: Investigative reporter Shanna Hogan, author of "Picture Perfect," the upcoming book about the Jodi Arias case, joins with us some breaking news.

Shanna, what is it?

SHANNA HOGAN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER (via telephone): Yes, thanks, Dr. Drew. Your producers and I have independently confirmed just minutes ago that the prosecutor fully intends to move forward and seek the death penalty for Jodi Arias. And the thing about this, it comes in the wake of Jodi`s defense team trying to sway public opinion and going out and saying that it`s going to cost the taxpayers money and that Jodi Arias might even have a mental illness that should prevent the state from going for the death penalty.

But nonetheless, the state attorney`s office that we spoke to a short time ago says things are now moving forward and we are still on for July 18th at this point.

PINSKY: Thank you, Shanna. We will look forward to that.

On our panel tonight, Darren Kavinoky, attorney and host of "Deadly Sins" on Investigation Discovery, defense attorney Anahita Sedaghatfar, Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at, and forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt.

So, before we get to your guys, I want to hear from Arias jury foreman, Bill Zervakos. He spoke exclusively to KTVK. Take a look you guys.


BILL ZERVAKOS, JURY FOREMAN: I do believe that he verbally and mentally abused her. There was just too much evidence that, you know, again, not an excuse. And believe me, I`m not painting Jodi Arias as a sympathetic figure.

REPORTER: Do you find her sympathetic?

ZERVAKOS: No, not at all. And I`m sorry, I don`t mean to slander him.

REPORTER: The social media --


REPORTER: -- is going to -- blaming the dead guy.

ZERVAKOS: Sure. No, I`m not blaming the dead guy. He didn`t deserve to die.

What do I think of her? I think she`s a delusional, you know, sad woman. I mean -- and you know, it`s just one of those things where she`s got to be held accountable, and I think we did that.


PINSKY: Mark, I have a couple thoughts. I wonder if he was watching the same trial we watched, and does an opinion like this surprise you?

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: It doesn`t, and let me just say this, Drew, I am very concerned that people out there are threatening this man. Justice does not mean that you get the outcome that you want.

There is no allegation that he or any of the other four somehow committed any misconduct or did anything unlawful. He just saw the evidence differently. And we need to support people, even those jurors in the O.J. case and in Casey Anthony who I thoroughly disagreed with the outcome, but they served zealously and fairly.

And the system, to maintain integrity, we must support those individual jurors who may not have the same feelings that we do.

PINSKY: Jenny, I remember I had a little mini fight with Nancy Grace the night the verdict came down. She was saying, what`s wrong with our system? And I said, what`s wrong with our system, this is how our system works.

JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Right, so, I don`t think there`s something wrong with our system, Dr. Drew. I think it`s disappointing when we hear someone like this foreman talk, because it just seems like he got her all wrong and got Travis kind of wrong -- although not all wrong, because they did get a guilty verdict for first-degree murder, which is what was most important here. Let`s not lose sight of that.

PINSKY: Absolutely. Absolutely.

HUTT: However, she wasn`t abused! She just wasn`t abused!

PINSKY: Go ahead, Darren.

DARREN KAVINOKY, ATTORNEY: There`s a little bit more when we`re talking about the penalty phase. And obviously, let`s not forget all 12 jurors were united in the guilt and cruelty aspects.

But with the penalty phase, it`s different. It`s not like mathematically applying the facts to the elements of the case. When we`re talking about the issue of death versus life, the jurors bring their world view, they bring their unique lenses by which they view life and what they value as mitigation or not.

So, it`s far softer and squishier. And I totally agree with Mark that the system works not necessarily when it produces a result that everybody agrees with but when the system functions with integrity and people vote their conscience, not being influenced by outside factors. And thank goodness that happened in the case where the jurors were not sequestered.

PINSKY: All right, absolutely. We found these jurors to be conscientious, thoughtful, great, you know, upstanding citizens.

But, Anahita, this is your man. This is the guy you hope for on the jury, isn`t it?

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: Well, Dr. Drew, I commend this guy for speaking out and explaining why he voted the way he did, because you know what? He doesn`t owe us an explanation. He doesn`t need to explain why he voted the way he did.

And I think it`s so unfortunate and sad that he`s receiving death threats and that people are screaming that justice wasn`t served simply because Jodi didn`t get the death penalty.

I think justice was served. Justice in this case was those 12 jurors giving up five months of their lives, sitting in that jury box, listening to the evidence, asking questions, going into that jury room, deliberating and coming out with a verdict.

And just because the verdict may not have been what you may have hoped or what I may have hoped, that does not mean justice was not served.

And I commend this man for speaking out and I really, really disagree with those that are saying this wasn`t justice in this case.

PINSKY: All right. However, Cheryl -- this is why I want you on the panel. Help us iron out this issue of was Travis abusing Jodi. We looked at that very carefully, and I don`t think there was actually any evidence of that.

Do you agree?

CHERYL ARUTT, PSYCHOLOGIST: I do, Dr. Drew. I mean, when we look at the idea, though, of being the juror and stepping back and having to actually be the person making a decision like this. I think psychologically, it`s very hard for any of us to know what that part is like.

So, this Monday morning quarterbacking, it`s hard enough to get good juries, to get juries, so let`s give them a break. But in terms of this juror being persuaded that she was abused, he didn`t see a lot of the stuff that we were showing on this show.

PINSKY: But, Cheryl, speaking of that --


PINSKY: Mark, hang on. I`ve got to show you other stuff about Jodi because you`ll love this. She has a jailhouse rap sheet. We looked at it last night. Here`s something we didn`t get to from August 2010. By the way, somebody from Twitter said to me, I`ve looked at this rap sheet.

And this is the behavior of a problem citizen in jail, a problem prisoner. Here`s what it is. The sergeant told Jodi over an intercom to stop talking, sit down, listen to what I`m saying, the place is on lockdown and she went about with her business doing whatever she thought she should do. She refused, was taken to her cell and put on lockdown.

Cheryl, not the behavior of the model citizen that Willmott told us we were going to get.

ARUTT: You are so right, Dr. Drew. She is disruptive, she is attention-seeking, she wants to stir the pot. This is not somebody who`s a victim. This is somebody who brutally murdered somebody else.

PINSKY: There you go. Jenny, you have a comment?

HUTT: Yes, she`s also just someone who acts like a naughty 16-year- old --


HUTT: -- who also happens to be a murder.


Mark, you`ll have your time. Go ahead, Mark.

EIGLARSH: Drew, the only abuse I saw was what Jodi committed towards Travis. That being said, this juror found something completely different and I respect -- I don`t agree with it, but I respect his views, and I think we need to all kind of encourage others to respect the outcome of the system.

PINSKY: And again, first-degree murder, premeditated, done and done. Killing somebody who is not a serial killer, who has not had a lifetime of egregious activity, that`s a pretty tall order for a group of people to all agree upon, I`ve just got to say.

Next up, we have a sneak peek at the new Jodi Arias movie. You`re going to see it here. And later, pathologist Bill Lloyd is back with us. Dr. Knife, as you know him, with his thoughts on the strangulation death of a beautiful fashion designer.

Oh, he`s got something more than knives tonight, OK. All right, we`ll see what that`s all about. Stay with us.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That camera ended up, as we now know, in a washing machine, right? You know that, right?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the camera`s being used to photograph Mr. Alexander, right?

ARIAS: In the shower, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re the one that`s telling him what position to get in so you can get this Calvin Klein effect that you want, right?

ARIAS: No, that`s not right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, isn`t this what this photographic session is about? Isn`t that what you told us it was about?

ARIAS: The Calvin Klein?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, the Calvin Klein look, right?

ARIAS: Something to that effect.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt and our panel. That, of course, was Jodi answering questions about the day she murdered Travis Alexander. Now, I want to show you guys something. Before I go to this clip, I want to show you a quick Twitter -- tweet, I beg your pardon. Here we go, put that up there.

Oh, you can`t put it up? All right. I`ll read it.

"Don`t start advertising the movie for that murder. Please, I find it upsetting. I`ll have to change the channel."

Don`t change the channel. Jodi`s not benefiting specifically from this. Please, come on now.

Let`s just watch. I have not seen this clip yet. We`re going to watch it together. Let`s see what this upcoming Lifetime movie is all about. Let`s watch.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, that`s enough. I`m done.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, come on. Let`s just take a couple more. Come on, face the wall.



PINSKY: Jenny, I heard you moaning and groaning.

HUTT: I don`t do blood and gore, Dr. Drew. It`s not my thing.

PINSKY: Well, that is an unflinching look at probably, or some version of what Jodi did to poor Travis. "Dirty Little Secret" airs less than a month before Jodi is going to head back to court.

Mark, too soon?

EIGLARSH: For me, yes. For the family, yes. For capitalism, no. I mean, this is a free society. They`re allowed to do what they want.

I have two major thoughts when I see, you know, that there`s this movie coming out. One, no one considered me for the role of Martinez. And secondly, this is actually going to take a longer time now to select a fair and impartial jury. You know, you have more questions now that you`re going to have to ask potential jurors who are going to be affected by this movie.

HUTT: Right.

PINSKY: Mark, they actually contacted me about you playing Martinez and I warned them. I warned them about --


PINSKY: -- the fog. The fog.

ARUTT: Dr. Drew, can I play the judge?

KAVINOKY: I`m just glad no one wanted me for Nurmi. I`m just happy.

ARUTT: We couldn`t be without you for that long, Mark.

PINSKY: Cheryl, any thoughts on this movie? Do you think that`s a pretty good --


PINSKY: Yes, OK, go ahead.

ARUTT: Well, you said it was an unflinching look, and based upon Jenny`s reaction and mine and anybody else who`s ever been traumatized, that`s a flinching look. I think that this is going to trigger the family. It`s going to trigger anybody who has any kind of post-traumatic stress, where a reminder of something upsetting is going to cause flashbacks, panic attacks, all of that. I`m just really worried about all the people who are going to be negatively affected.

PINSKY: OK. It`s reasonable, but, Darren, you`re shaking your head, no.

KAVINOKY: Yes, yes, yes. People get to vote with their remote control.

HUTT: Right.

KAVINOKY: And maybe this is just because I also host a show, as you mentioned, Dr. Drew, on Investigation Discovery called "Deadly Sins" where we traffic in blood and gore. But people can avoid this. If they are not interested in it, it`s very simple, turn away from it.

But sex sells, gore sells, and it`s just a reality that that`s a choice for people who are interested, fascinated, captivated by it.

PINSKY: All right.

KAVINOKY: And it should be there.

PINSKY: Final word, Anahita. You were nodding.

SEDAGHATFAR: Well, I -- Dr. Drew, I will not be watching this movie alone at night at my house. I think I would have nightmares.

I mean, this is scary! If I had little kids, I probably wouldn`t want them watching this. But the reality is --

HUTT: Well, of course not!

SEDAGHATFAR: -- that sex sells, gruesomeness sells. People are captivated by the Jodi Arias story. It`s compelling. And quite frankly, the only reason I may sneak a quick peek is to see if the actors are any better than we were yesterday, Dr. Drew, on your show.

PINSKY: No way they`ll come anywhere near you guys.

KAVINOKY: No chance!

PINSKY: But you do raise an interesting point.

SEDAGHATFAR: Thank you. I appreciate that.

PINSKY: I will be on "Raising America" tomorrow, 9:00 Pacific/noon Eastern Time, where we`re going to talk -- Father`s Day is coming, so we`re going to be talking about how to discuss with children some of these stories we`ve been covering here on HLN.

But I want to switch gears here. We have another clip from KTVK`s interview with the jury foreman. I want to get back to him and the trauma he went through having to make a first-degree murder conviction. Watch this.


ZERVAKOS: The tension was so high in there all the time, you know, the magnitude of it. How much I was shaking when I signed the guilty of first-degree murder form? I literally had to hold my hand down. I literally had to hold my wrist so that I could sign it.

I just wanted people to understand the human side of it, what the toll was it took on 12 people, because it took a hell of a toll.


PINSKY: Jenny, you`re coming out of your skin.

HUTT: Yes, OK, I am. Just because, listen, I think this foreman is incredibly brave to speak out and to say really how he felt, but the fact is, he did the right thing, and yet, he`s a Jodi sympathizer, and that kind of wigs me out a little bit, Dr. Drew. He definitely, as I`ve said prior, drank her Kool-Aid. He did!

PINSKY: Well, Cheryl, Cheryl --

EIGLARSH: I don`t think so, Jenny.

SEDAGHATFAR: I don`t think so either.

ARUTT: I don`t think so, either, I don`t --


EIGLARSH: Jenny -- Jenny -- Jenny, I watched the full interview, and that`s not the feeling that I got.

You showed little clips and then you can point to him and you can yell at him. I think overall, he was just saying that he`s human. He`s giving us insight. They`re not robots. It was difficult.

He didn`t sympathize with Jodi. He made that very clear throughout the interview --

PINSKY: Yes, but he did, Mark --

EIGLARSH: It`s just difficult to serve in that capacity.

PINSKY: All the attorneys are siding with him and I don`t object to his opinion at all, except I don`t think he understood what he was looking at.

Cheryl, we have seen so much -- and we have a frame of reference for understanding domestic violence and this was not that.

HUTT: Right.

ARUTT: Well, this is why we need to educate people, I think, about domestic violence and people need to be aware of what to look for, what a victim looks like, because she`s probably going to be covering it up and trying to hide it, not try to display it in that way. We need to know what to look for to understand this. I think he did the best he could with what he knew.

PINSKY: But, Anahita, I say that, I suppose it`d be the prosecution, didn`t paint enough of a picture comparing her to what domestic violence actually is so the jury could understand that difference.

SEDAGHATFAR: Well, you know, that`s true. A lot of people say that Jodi was able to somehow sway Alyce LaViolette, that she had this way to manipulate people. Everyone was in love with her. Dr. Samuels was in love with her.

And now, because these particular jurors didn`t vote for the death penalty, they were somehow, you know, swayed by Jodi`s magical powers.

And I just don`t think that`s the case. I think that this particular individual listened to the evidence, he weighed what he thought would be possible mitigating factors, and he didn`t feel that it justified death.

PINSKY: Now, you all can see more of the exclusive interview with the Arias jury foreman at

Guys, really interesting conversation. No doubt, we will continue to talk about Jodi. We`ve got a whole other round with her coming up in July. So we`ll all be back discussing her again at some point.

Next up -- thank you very much, guys -- the shocking case of money, murder and mystery that began when a woman was found apparently strangled in the bathtub, and although Dr. Lloyd had his dish washing gloves on in our last break -- I don`t know if you guys have a picture of him again. I`m not sure somebody actually strangled her with dishwashing gloves on.

And later on, a woman arrested -- there he is. You`ll have to explain that one to me. Later on, a woman arrested 396 times. There she is. Finally gets referred for mental health treatment by a judge who gets it.

Right back.



PINSKY (voice-over): Sex, strangling, money and a possible murder. It could have been ripped from the headlines for an episode of "Law & Order," but this is real. Beautiful young swimsuit designer Sylvie Cachay was found dead and partially clothed in an overflowing bathtub at New York`s exclusive Soho House.

Her boyfriend, Nicholas Brooks, is charged with choking and drowning her. He says she overdosed on pills. Brooks is a trust fund kid whose father committed suicide after he was charged with rape and sexual assault.

According to a report, dad bought hookers for son when Nicholas was just 14, a habit Nicholas may have continued as an adult.


PINSKY: Time for the behavior bureau, back with co-host Jenny Hutt.

By the way, the father of the defendant wrote the hit song, jenny, "You Light Up My Life." Remember that song back in the day?

HUTT: Yes, somewhere ironic.

PINSKY: Joining us to discuss: Samantha Schacher, social commentator and host of "Pop Trigger" on Young Turks Network, criminal investigator Danine Manette, author of "Ultimate Betrayal," and clinical and forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt, as well as pathologist, Dr. Bill Lloyd.

I`ll start with you, Jenny.

What is the reaction of the story?

HUTT: It`s horrific! I don`t understand how these people keep killing the people that they`re supposed to be in love with or having sex with. It`s maddening, Dr. Drew, if this, in fact, happened the way that we think it happened.

PINSKY: You know, I am not so sure about it, Jenny. I am not so sure.

But, Samantha, tell me about the significance of this case in New York. These were socialites. It was a big deal at one point, wasn`t it?

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, it was a big deal, and the Soho House is extremely exclusive, like extremely exclusive around the world.

And you know what? I`m sorry, yes, innocent until proven guilty, but I see guilt written all over his face, Dr. Drew. I mean, you look at the evidence, and it`s alarming. From him, people hearing them arguing, from him, she being found in a bathtub partially clothed when her family members state that she hated taking baths. She thought that they were insanitary and she would rather take showers.

From the medical examiner stating that he ruled it a homicide, strangulation. And I think one of the most alarming pieces of evidence is when one of the detectives came on scene, Nicholas asked the detective, if I were to be convicted for this crime, how much time would I serve?

PINSKY: Interesting.

Danine, what are your thoughts?

DANINE MANETTE: This case is really weird. I mean, this woman is found in the bathtub partially clothed with a sweater on.

PINSKY: Yes, weird.

MANETTE: And it`s supposed to have been an accident in I usually take a bath with a sweater on, so you know, it`s understandable.

But give me a break. This is ridiculous. It doesn`t make any sense.

PINSKY: Jenny, you`re waving your hands.

HUTT: I have to say one thing.

PINSKY: Please.

HUTT: Because a socialist does not take a bath in a hotel bathtub. She just doesn`t. It`s gross.

PINSKY: Yes, but drug addicts do.

Bill -- you know what I mean? These two, Dr. Lloyd, there was a lot of drug stuff going on between these two.

My question is, the prosecution says he strangled her in the tub. The defense says she drowned after falling in the shower. I keep -- I read various things about substance use. What do you say? What`s the evidence tell you?

DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST: The evidence tells me I need to bring these gloves every time I`m on your show, drew, because murder is not tidy.

There`s two conflicting theories here -- strangulation, that`s physical. It doesn`t happen easily, and there`s always going to be a fight involved with it.

With regards to the drug issues, there are very straight-forward tests that can be done on this young girl`s body, chemical tests and physical tests for Sylvie that will show the presence of active drug use, drug use that night, and a history of drug use previously.

About the issue of drowning, did she really drown or not or do we have another Whitney Houston situation going on?

PINSKY: Right.

LLOYD: Again, physical findings and laboratory findings will be able to confirm whether or not she was breathing when she slipped beneath the water line.

PINSKY: But did they have -- is there some evidence anatomically that they could see postmortem of physical strangulation? And I`ve got to tell you, again, these two were -- what word shall we use?

HUTT: Doing it?

LLOYD: Volatile.

PINSKY: Yes, they were volatile. They were into -- they were colorful. And perhaps they were doing things before she died that left marks on her neck, you know what I`m saying?

HUTT: Oh, oh!


LLOYD: It`s a very important point. It`s a very important point, but what you need to know in terms of the autopsy, you will be able to find deep tissue changes from a true strangulation that may not appear on the surface. That is, you may not see any bruises, but when you cut down to the throat, you may see a fractured larynx. You may see bruises within the soft muscles deep inside the throat.

So, these are the changes that the medical examiner can report on. He`s holding the cards right now.

PINSKY: Interesting.

LLOYD: And he knows the facts, whether or not it was a true strangulation, whether drugs were involved, and if anybody drowned.

PINSKY: All right. So, really, this is going to really be about the medical examiner. Jenny, you`ve got a question for Dr. Lloyd.

HUTT: Well, I just wanted to know what his hunch was. What`s your hunch in this case?

LLOYD: Oh, I believe he strangled her and --


LLOYD: How she got in the tub is anybody`s story, but she was probably already unconscious, if not dead by the time she hit the water.

PINSKY: Danine, his father, I guess, is alleged to have bought prostitutes for him at a very young age. Again, there`s a lot of --

MANETTE: Freakiness?

PINSKY: Yes, thank you.

MANETTE: Yes, a lot of freakiness going on.

PINSKY: Do you make anything of all that?

MANETTE: I think that this is a whole family of dysfunction, and it seems like that this just has played out from father to son generationally. I`m thinking that she should have kind of seen the signs of that, but yes, I think that maybe it was just some kind of wild craziness that was going on that may have just turned into violence.

DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Samantha, no?

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: No, I have been following this case, Dr. drew.

PINSKY: Tell me!

SCHACHER: I`ve been following this case for a year and her friends say, listen, she`s a very well-to-do, professional, ambitious woman. Her friends never said that she has had irresponsible party nights. Yes, she may have dabbled in some drugs or she may drink, but never on an irresponsible level. They are at two different sides of the spectrum, he and she.

PINSKY: All right. OK. So, you`re building the case, Samantha, for somebody who maybe is an addict, and she may be a co-dependent -- again, we`re just speculating here -- and that kind of craziness, even when they`re both not using, only one of them is, can result in disaster. You don`t have to be the user to end up on the wrong end of the addictive process. I`m just saying.

And, we have, coming up, a five-page to-do list that she gave to him, and people are wondering, did that have something to do with the murder? We`ll show you a little bit about what was on that list.

And later, again, a woman arrested almost 400 times. An enlightened judge finally gets her some help.



SYLVIA CACHAY, SYLVIE CACHAY`S MOTHER: The pain is, it`s so terrible. I think it`s like if you take a knife and you just leave it there and it will never come up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What this man did to my daughter ruined our lives, ruined my family. He has to pay.

CACHAY: He looked like he didn`t care. He didn`t care. I didn`t see any remorse.


PINSKY: That was Sylvie`s parents talking about the loss of their daughter. We are back with the behavior bureau and my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Now, Dr. Bill Lloyd, I want to go back to you real quick. Apparently, there is more we don`t know about the medical examiner`s report that, perhaps, you do. Tell us.

DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST: Well, the one element we haven`t discussed so far is sexual behavior. What happened in that hotel room hours before the murder took place? Was there sexual behavior between the two of them? Was it rough sex, which may involve sexual asphyxiation, where one partner has their hand on the neck of the other person?

There may be a ploy that the defense is going to use. It will be an easy manner for the medical examiner to identify from the autopsy if sexual activity had occurred recently prior to the death of Sylvie.

PINSKY: Or what if it was some sort of behavior like that that went too far, and he -- Cheryl, you`re the closest to the legal system. Would somebody use that as a defense ever, like it was an accident?

CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., @CHERYLARUTT: Well, it makes me think of the Robert Chambers` case in New York City in Central Park, the preppie murder --


ARUTT: -- where that was what they said, and he was convicted. But a lot of times, this turns into a blaming the victim for this rough sex kind of thing. I can understand why they would want to try as a defense, but this is where we need to get back to domestic violence again. She sent an e-mail, from what I understand in this case, that this guy was bringing her down.


ARUTT: She was trying to extricate herself.

PINSKY: Well, Cheryl, I`m going to allude to that in just one second.

ARUTT: OK. PINSKY: I`m going to give you part of the five-page list that she handed him about his behavior that needed to change. But before I do, Samantha, I want -- you helped bring her to life a few minutes ago for us. We don`t all have a great sense of who this woman was. And it really changed my thinking about this case when you shared with us what friends were saying.

So, flush this out even further. So, this was a high-level professional. She was active in her career. She was not a party girl. Tell us more.

SCHACHER: She was very active in her career. This is somebody that was working with Tommy Hilfiger, somebody that was designing bathing suits for Victoria`s Secret, started her own successful bathing suit company. And here`s the thing, she was unhappy with her relationship because he wasn`t meeting her expectations.

She wanted somebody that was more driven. She wanted somebody that didn`t partake in drugs and alcohol. This is exactly the opposite of what we were kind of stating before.

PINSKY: OK. Danine, I want you to listen to this list, because this is right in your sweet spot. Here it is, this is what she wrote to Nicholas. "Get a job. In the meantime, be productive and show it. Take me on dates." Again, these are outtakes from this five-page document. "No random overdrinking or drug use." I can`t imagine what she means by random.

"If you can`t do all these things, then this most likely won`t work." Now, before I go to Danine, I want to know if any of you that have children have ever sort of written a list like this to their children. It`s the kind of thing you`d give to a child, isn`t it? No, Cheryl --


PINSKY: But how about to a boyfriend or a husband? Danine, that`s my point.


PINSKY: It`s like this is how you would treat a child or a not well person. You can`t fix a not well person by yourself. I`m afraid this girl got taken down by that. Do you agree?

MANETTE: I don`t get this. I see this all the time, these women that take on these projects, that they want to fix these people, these broken men. They want to fix them. They want to turn them into suitable mates, but they`re treated like children. If I have to make a list that I have to tell my partner to get up in the morning, to wash his butt, to put his socks on, that`s not somebody I want to be with. And I don`t understand why these women choose to take on these projects.

ARUTT: Right.

MANETTE: This is six months into the relationship. If you`re doing this at six months during the honeymoon phase, babe, he`s not going to get any better. Kick him to the curb. He`s not getting any better.

PINSKY: Go ahead, Jenny.

JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: First of all, I just want to say that if my husband tried to strangle me during sex, I would kick him and we would not be having sex. So, let`s just start with that.

PINSKY: When he did or if he did?

HUTT: If he did, Dr. Drew!

PINSKY: OK. I`m sorry. Just wanted to clarify.

HUTT: Kick.

PINSKY: Pardon me.

HUTT: But "B," I think maybe early on, she didn`t know that he was a loser. She got sort of roped in, then realized he was a loser and was trying to salvage the relationship with this list, but clearly, that backfired.

SCHACHER: If I can add in there, she was also financially supporting him for all this time. And when she found out --

ARUTT: He`s a bum!

SCHACHER: When she found out really quickly that he was soliciting hookers, she threatened to take him to jail and let everybody know.

PINSKY: OK, Cheryl, put a button on this. While you and I deal with this kind of thing, we treat people on both sides of this. Put a button on it.

ARUTT: We do, but I`ve just learned from Samantha that this woman was paying for his hookers and found out.

PINSKY: Yes, it`s awful.

ARUTT: You know, this is the thing, when you want to leave somebody, these women very often feel like they need a reason, they need to put out a list like this so that if he fails, then they`re entitled to make this decision instead of Danine (ph) would saying, you would just get to say no, we will not be having a relationship.

But very often, with a violent situation, the risk of danger does go up at that time, so be educated, protect yourself.

PINSKY: There we go.

ARUTT: That`s it.

PINSKY: That`s it. Back after this.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I got about half way to my car from the street, again, behind the houses in a dark area, I heard him say, "you got a problem?" And I turned around and saw him. I reached for my pocket and I was looking for my phone and he just punched me in the nose. And I fell backwards to the side and somehow ended up on my back.


PINSKY: Welcome back. My co-host this evening is Jenny Hutt. Trayvon Martin`s death has had a nationwide impact. No matter what you think of George Zimmerman, the man charged with second-degree murder in this case, this is still a very galvanizing case about which many people have opinions.

Joining us, Mark Eiglarsh, Crystal Wright of, Michael Skolnik, editor of, he`s on the board of the Trayvon Martin Foundation, and actor, Todd Bridges, best known for playing Willis Jackson on the TV sitcom "Different Strokes." So, Todd, welcome back, my friend.


PINSKY: People are killed a lot. You know, there`s murder in this country, but this case has had special meaning for many people. What does this case mean to you and why is it so important?

BRIDGES: Well, for me, I think I`m trying not to take the racial approach to it. I want to take the approach of what it`s really meant about. I think that this guy had something up his sleeve, and he basically would have done this to just about anybody who would have been in the area at the time.

He had a chip on his shoulder, and he had planned on doing something to anybody who was in his neighborhood who he didn`t want. And I think that he`s changed his story a few times, and the bottom line is, I like how he says that he -- Trayvon Martin approached him.

But I know he was following Trayvon Martin around, and when you approach somebody and scare someone, someone is going to go on to defensive mode automatically.


BRIDGES: And for me, it shocks me how he`s trying to get us to believe that Trayvon Martin approached him.

PINSKY: Well, the fear, the fear on both sides is what I find interesting. Crystal, what are your thoughts?

CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVEBLACKCHICK.COM: Well, I`m going to agree with Todd in that I think that George Zimmerman was aggressive and that he -- after talking to the police dispatcher, the 911 dispatcher, he pursued Trayvon. However, I`m going to disagree in saying that we know this, we know that.

What we know is there`s a lot of evidence to support both the argument that George Zimmerman made that Trayvon Martin hit him and pursued him, because George Zimmerman had bruises on him. But what bothers me about this case, and we know the phone record of Trayvon Martin`s girlfriend, the voice message, I think the voice mail that was left on her phone or something, you know, around that.

But what bothers me and really troubles me is none of us would be talking about this case if George Zimmerman was Black. We wouldn`t be talking about it. I think about all the number, the real problems of Blacks killing Blacks in cities like Chicago, in D.C. where I live, and we don`t see Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton coming out in outrage and trying to turn a, quote, "a moment into a movement." So, I think that what needs to happen here is we need to stop racializing this case.

BRIDGES: I agree.

WRIGHT: We need to let justice take place and let it happen. I mean, that`s what really troubles me as a human being.

PINSKY: Got you.

WRIGHT: I don`t think anybody -- I don`t want any young person to lose their life.

PINSKY: Mark, hang on. Michael, I got to go to you. Go ahead.

MICHAEL SKOLNIK, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF GLOBALGRIND.COM: Yes. I constantly hear these conservative folks talking about racializing this case. I`m White. I think Trayvon Martin was innocent. I think --

WRIGHT: Good for you.

SKOLNIK: -- he`s the victim. I think George Zimmerman murdered Trayvon Martin, OK? Many White folks in the jury room and courtroom yesterday when I was in Sanford who said I think he`s guilty, too. A White guy got kicked out of the courtroom today as a potential juror. He thought he was guilty. It wasn`t just Black people marching for Trayvon Martin around this country.

It was Whites, Latinos, Asians, Blacks, young people, old people. 2.2 million people signed a petition in favor of getting Georgisme Zimmerman arrested.

PINSKY: Todd, you told our producers that you worried about your son. Why is that?

BRIDGES: Well, my son`s a Black male and he walks around and it`s very frightening, because they always assume -- like when we -- when something -- one black person does something, they lump us all in together, that we`ve all done it.

And I`ve noticed it when I walk in stores before, people follow me around the stores thinking I`m going to steal or I`m going to do something. And to me, it`s atrocious in this country and I think that we all should be treated equally.

PINSKY: All right.

BRIDGES: I just want to be treated like everybody else.

PINSKY: Fair enough. Next, did a potential juror in the Zimmerman trial have a bias? We have some breaking news about what the judge wanted to investigate and wanted to know. Back after this.


PINSKY: Welcome back. I`m with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, and I want to go out to a tweet. I think this sort of might capture the view of the viewers. This is from Roni_Claigfield (ph). "Before we decide the verdict, we have to hear the evidence. This is not about race, it is about finding out who was the aggressor."

And we have other issues that are just breaking this case, the judge in the Zimmerman case summoned a potential juror back to the courtroom after attorneys had finished questioning him and then she asked if he was the author of this Facebook post, quote, "Justice" unquote is coming. The Seminole County justice system needs an enema and they just might get one!"

It`s believed that the person who was one of the four potential jurors dismissed today. The court, of course, will not confirm that. Mark, this is exactly what you brought up last night with the idea of stealth jurors, isn`t it?

MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: Absolutely. I was in the courtroom yesterday and there was one juror in particular. My personal feeling was the only thing missing was that person turning to the side that I thought that they were supporting and giving them a little wink.

I have very strong concerns that a miscarriage of justice would take place because people are saying merely what they think everybody wants to hear but have deeply rooted feelings on how the outcome should be.

PINSKY: Crystal, your thoughts?

EIGLARSH: And by the way, I`ve got to say one thing about race also.

PINSKY: Yes, please.

EIGLARSH: Let me just say about race. This trial is about race, whether you like it or not, because prosecutors have charged this as a second-degree murder, which means ill will, hatred or spite was in the mindset of Zimmerman when he killed Trayvon. Also, in the arrest affidavit, it`s alleged that he profiled Trayvon.

The inference is not that he profiled him because he didn`t like the candy he was carrying, but because of what he was wearing and what he looked like. Race is going to be a part of this trial.

PINSKY: Well, Todd, I want to go back over to you, then. How do we get everybody to digest this in a way that`s healthy?

BRIDGES: Well, I think the best healthy way to digest it is that we have to look at the psychology of this guy. He was set up that night because 911 even told him not to pursue this person, and he pursued on his own because he wants to be a tough guy. I`m running -- this is my neighborhood.

And I really believe that no matter who was in those clothes, no matter who was walking looking like that, because I`ve got just as many White friends who get pulled over who dressed like Black guys or dress like gang members and get pulled over as anybody.

PINSKY: All right. Michael, I see you, Michael shaking your head no, but I saw Crystal shifting out of her skin. Crystal, go ahead.


WRIGHT: Well, Michael -- yes. I think it`s really interesting that at one point, Michael is indignant about being in the courtroom and seeing the bias of jurors, jurors saying anything to get on a panel, and then, the next minute he`s already convicted George Zimmerman, right? So, it`s OK for you, for Michael to have bias there -


PINSKY: I have limited time, Crystal. Go.

WRIGHT: Race is a part of it.

PINSKY: OK. Michael, go, 20 seconds.

WRIGHT: Race is a part of it.

SKOLNIK: I love my man, Todd. I grew up watching Todd. I love you, Todd, but I`m going to disagree with you on this one. If I was walking through Sanford, Florida that night with a hoodie on and a pair of jeans on, George Zimmerman would not stop me --

WRIGHT: Right.

SKOLNIK: And simply he would not stop me because I am White.

PINSKY: There, you guys, that`s it. "Last Call" after this.


PINSKY: It`s time for the "Last Call." We`re going to talk about a homeless woman from Chicago who has a long rap sheet, Jenny, and I mean long. Shermain Miles (ph) had been arrested 396 times since 1978. Something was not right and there was finally a judge that agreed. Judge Peggy Chompas (ph) allowed Miles to plead guilty to several new charges in exchange for a commitment to get mental health treatment and addiction treatment for her alcoholism.

Jenny, I`ve always been amazed that there isn`t more relationship between the bench and the treatment community. It just, to me, is so much. I mean, how many stories do we do here were mental health figures into it and disaster occurs?

HUTT: Well, yes.

PINSKY: And then, it`s just up to the legal system to do its thing at that point.

HUTT: Well, yes, but I have another question for you, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Please.

HUTT: We talk about how to talk to kids about all the horrible stuff that`s going on in the news.

PINSKY: Which I`ll be doing that on "Raising America" tomorrow morning, but go ahead.

HUTT: OK, but wait. How about talking to the moms? Because we`re all worried that our boys are going to date girls like Jodi, our girls are going to wind up with guys like Brooks and our other, whoever gender- neutral is going to be in the hoodie and potentially get shot! I`ve had it.

PINSKY: Well, there`s a lot packed (ph) into that. And it`s funny you would bring it up because in our green room, Todd and Anahita and a couple of people were standing around talking about how, Todd, an adult male, and Anahita both, an adult female, have to be careful out in the world again.

This feels to me like -- maybe we`re just reporting on it more and we`re getting jaded by all this, but it feels the ways -- like in the 1970s when crimes started coming up again and became -- we have to watch it and look over your back. I hope we`re not getting to that, and I really not. But, caveat emptor, I mean, people need to be careful, especially with their kids.

You`re right. Listen, I don`t know what to tell the mom to reassure them except that most of the things that we reported here are pretty, pretty rare (ph). Pretty rare (ph)

HUTT: Right.

PINSKY: Thank you, Jenny. Thank you to all my panels. Of course, to my guests. Thank you all for watching. I will see you next time. And just that every night reminder that "HLN After Dark" begins, following us, and right now.