Return to Transcripts main page


NSA Chief Defends Surveillance Programs; Fires Burn Homes, Force Thousands To Flee; Death Penalty for Ariel Castro?

Aired June 12, 2013 - 19:00   ET


BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT/ANCHOR: "OUTFRONT" next, the man who leaked information about the NSA's surveillance program says he did it to safeguard privacy and liberty. But today the director of that agency testified that that program foiled dozens of terrorist attacks.

Question we're asking tonight is: Is the tradeoff worth it to Americans?

Plus, Pope Francis seems to admit there is a gay lobby working within the Vatican. Does he see it as a threat?

And her family fought the system and won. A young girl gets the lung that could save her life. Let's go OUTFRONT.

Good to be with you tonight. I'm Brooke Baldwin sitting in for Erin Burnett who, by the way, is in Tehran tonight, covering the presidential election there. We will hear from Erin a bit later here in the show.

But first, OUTFRONT tonight, stopping terror. Today the head of the NSA testified before Congress that surveillance programs like the one leaked by Edward Snowden last week are crucial to our national security.


GENERAL KEITH ALEXANDER, NSA DIRECTOR: It's dozens of terrorist events that these have helped prevent.


BALDWIN: But is the U.S. government collecting too much unnecessary data in the process? Senator Patrick Leahy was among those today at the Senate Appropriations Committee hearing expressing some skepticism about the mountains and mountains of information that the government is collecting.


SENATOR PATRICK LEAHY (D), VERMONT: All of those millions have been critical?


BALDWIN: So is critical information perhaps details that could have stopped the Boston bombers getting lost in the shuffle? Our chief congressional correspondent, Dana Bash, is on Capitol Hill where I know you spent your afternoon watching this hearing. You heard, Dana, some of Senator Leahy's skepticism. What about the other senators? Were they buying the argument from General Alexander?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Not all. Some were but I think it is fair to say most of them were not. It was really in a bipartisan way that the senators were expressing skepticism. It was pretty clear that the NSA director came with some ways that he really wanted to illustrate how he believes these programs are actually working.

You heard him talk about the fact that dozens of terror plots have been disrupted before they actually occurred. That he was pressed on by Senator Leahy. He said it was part of other programs that really helped to thwart them, but that was about phone records. There is another program that, of course, we've been talking about called prism, which has to do with the government getting into private internet use.

He talked about the fact that he believes that really led the government to know about, learn about, a plot to blow up New York subways. Said that that wasn't the only way that they were able to really stop that, but that was at least the initial way that they found out about it.

Look, it was very clear, Brooke, that the senators, again, from the most conservative to the most liberal said that is well and good, but they are concerned that this web of data that the government is collecting may down the road not be used for good. And there's a slippery slope when it comes to civil liberties.

BALDWIN: Yes, we are about to have that conversation on that slippery slope. But going back to your point, which was the initial headline the fact that General Alexander, the NSA director saying dozens of attacks has been thwarted. You know, he was asked for a specific number, he did not give one. Do you know why? Why no number?

BASH: Yes. He was very clear because that number is still classified. He actually is going to be back here on Capitol Hill for a classified briefing tomorrow, Brooke, with all senators. They are going to be able to ask him that question. He said he is going to be able to answer that in a classified private way. He also did say though that he is working with his staff and with other members of the intelligence community to make public to you and me and others what the numbers are and how many terror plots were actually thwarted and specifically how within a week.

So we're certainly going to hold of that, but he was very, very careful with the way he said that he had declassified information. He said I'm trying to do my best to make it transparent, but he also said he would rather take a public beating and people think I'm hiding something than to jeopardize the security of this country.

BALDWIN: Dana Bash on the Hill for us tonight. Dana, thank you. I want to push this conversation forward. Joining me tonight, Phil Mudd, former deputy director of National Security of the FBI, and Mark Hosenball, senior national security correspondent for "Reuters." So gentlemen, welcome.

Mark, let me just begin with you here because when we talk -- Dana used the word this web, massive amounts of data. We know NSA is building this $2 billion facility outside of Salt Lake City just to contain all of this. According to the General Alexander, the chief of the NSA, it has thwarted dozens of terrorist attacks. My question to you is, is that it? Does the end justify the means?

MARK HOSENBALL, SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT, "REUTERS": Well, first of all, we have to be a little bit skeptical until we actually see the evidence as to the success rate of this data. I mean, I know for a fact that in the past intelligence officials claim certain plots were thwarted by this method or that method and it turns out that wasn't entirely correct.

So let's see some of the facts there, but there's a larger issue here, which is, you know, we do know of two or three very, very high profile plots including the Boston marathon plot and also the attempted underwear bombing of an airliner headed for Detroit on Christmas 2009, I believe it was, where the U.S. had all kinds of traces in intelligence and secret intelligence.

And diplomatic day marches indicates that both the Boston bombers and the underwear bomber from foreign governments and the father of the would-be underwear bomber out of Yemen that there were bad people around and these people were bad and there should be lookouts for these people.

You know, the government was unable to do anything with these traces even though they conducted an investigation. So at some point you get so overwhelmed with information that you can't necessarily sort the needles out from the hay stack.

BALDWIN: You know, I'm talking to the person who wrote the initial book on the NSA giving the same analogy, the fact that the stack is getting bigger and bigger and we need better people to find the needles. Phil, given all these information, you immediately think of the conversations and the data involving perhaps Tamerlan Tsarnaev. You start to wonder, you know, we saw what happened in Boston. Is there too much information that the system is overburdened?

PHIL MUDD, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL SECURITY, FBI: No, I don't think so. Frankly, I think the Boston case is irrelevant here. We're looking at networks -- because you have two guys who are largely off the net. They were home growns. If you want to look at all their e-mail and phone data, are you sure we would have found something there that would have implicated them in a plot that they were discussing? I'm not sure.

I think that there is a very simple question here. The word surveillance is too narrow. Let me tell you what that question is. If you want to understand a conspiracy in the 21st Century you can either send 20 people out with shoes on to follow you or you could say let me look at the phone data, internet data and I will tell you whether it is you or me or Mark I can draw a picture of what your network is almost instantly using this data. That is invaluable.

BALDWIN: What about the issue though? Because when you look at the polling it is interesting. When Americans are asked about being surveilled versus terrorists, for example, let me just show some numbers. Majority of Americans do not approve of the collection of phone data from ordinary folks, but they do approve of the collection of data in terror suspects. You see the numbers here. Mark, how is it possible for the government to stop terror, to monitor the bad guys, if you will, and to not surveill the American people?

HOSENBALL: Well, of course, you know, arguably it is impossible. I mean, Phil is right about that. But I would also make the point that in the case in people like Tsarnaev and for that matter the underwear bomber, you are not looking these days for 9/11 plotters although at least, you know, theoretically that could happen again --

BALDWIN: They brought 9/11 today at the committee hearing.

HOSENBALL: What you are actually looking for is the very sort of isolated individuals who radicalize themselves watching over the internet. That is what the most recent plots have been related to. As Phil said arguably that kind of data isn't necessarily going to find that, you are not actually talking about large conspiracies or even light conspiracies, you're talking about a couple of guys. It is not necessarily spottable through the data situations. The question is, is the masses of data really helping you?

BALDWIN: Phil, your final thoughts and also just adding to that, do we -- should we be taking the government's word on the news that they say they are thwarting terrorist attacks? Does the American public deserve more information?

MUDD: I think they do because the question isn't about terrorism. It's about we understand as Americans in terms of our physical privacy what the limits are. In an airport you can be checked, at the grocery store you cannot. We as Americans as we get increasing digital with Amazon or Google or Verizon have a digital footprint and we don't have an understanding of how privacy relates that foot print yet. We have to have that debate.

BALDWIN: Phil Mudd, Mark Hosenball, thank you both so much. This is just the beginning of that debate. I appreciate it both of you.

Still to come tonight, the pope admits there is a gay lobby within the Vatican. Does it make the church vulnerable? We'll ask.

Plus her father was murdered and for nearly three decades she vowed to find the killer and now she believes she has.

And we have news just in on the wild fires forcing thousands to evacuate and flee for safety. Those details after a quick break.


BALDWIN: We are following breaking news tonight out of Colorado where a disaster emergency has been declared because of this unstoppable wildfire ripping through the center part of the state. Look at it for yourself here. These flames have burned through 97 homes. This is according to the sheriff's office. But as you can see these flames are serious match because as officials have just now said the conditions are right now unpredictable.

Victor Blackwell is OUTFRONT. Victor, what more are you learning about this fire?

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know now that it is burning in two directions, northeast and northwest, and because of those conditions as you mentioned it is becoming even more difficult to fight. We know that there are 500 firefighters working on this, but imagine the worst possible conditions, a hot, dry, windy day.

Well, today the temperature hit 90, the humidity is down to 10 percent and the winds are sustained 10 to 15 miles per hour with gusts of 25. Now, we know that this fire has burned up to 8,000 acres already. The sheriff who is holding a news conference now says that can grow to 12,000 and there is still more work to be done.

I'm going to step out of the way to show you what we are seeing all day we have seen this ash cloud over parts of Colorado Springs. We have seen pops of dark smoke. That means something man made, something with chemicals, vinyl, fabric, pressure treated wood, paint is burning. Those are homes. As you said, 97 burned, 92 of them a total loss, five with some type of fire damage -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: It's incredible. You think you are looking at a cloud; instead it is a wall of smoke. Victor Blackwell in Colorado Springs. Victor, thank you so much. Thinking about the folks in Colorado tonight.

Our second story OUTFRONT: secret gay lobby inside the Vatican? Pope Francis acknowledged the existence of the gay lobby during a private meeting Sunday with religious leaders from the Caribbean and Latin America. He was later quoted by a Chilean Web site as saying this, quote: "In the Curia" - which refers to Catholicism's central bureaucracy - "there are holy people, truly holy people. But there is also a current of corruption. Also there is, it is true, a speak of a gay lobby and that is true, it is here. We have to see what we can do."

The pope's remarks come months after reports that his predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI, may have been forced out by a gay group implicated in a leak scandal. OUTFRONT tonight, CNN contributor Father Edward Beck. Father Beck, good to see you tonight. You know, the Vatican, they are not commenting on the pope's remark. When you hear gay lobby, what might he even be referring to?

FATHER EDWARD BECK, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Brooke, of course, we have to assume that there are gay men, gay priests in the Curia. Ten percent of the population is supposedly gay, so at least probably 10 percent of those in the Curia are gay.

Gay lobby, I think, is kind of a confusing term. We use lobby to mean someone putting forth a certain agenda, lobbying for a cause. So, gay lobby would seem to us to be, well, are they lobbying for gay causes? Well, if that's the case, then they should be fired because they are doing a really poor job of it with regard to the Catholic Church. So that is not really what we are talking about here.

Probably a better word would be gay cabal, gay clique. And the concern is this. If there is, in fact, a gay group, it makes them perhaps more vulnerable, some have said to blackmail. This got released in a dossier of the cardinal's report to Pope Benedict, you'll recall, when the whole (INAUDIBLE) scandal broke. And they were supposed to make a report back to Pope Benedict. They did. Some said in that report there was mention of a gay lobby that made the Vatican vulnerable per se. So that seems to be what is resurfacing here in the remarks of Pope Francis -- again off-the-record remarks -- where he refers to the gay lobby and says now we have to deal with it. What that means we do not yet know. BALDWIN: So, would we - I mean, I like how you say it helps us understand, not a gay lobby. Gay clique. So, if there were to be this gay clique, how might that -- what might that mean for the church's stance on homosexuality?

BECK: Well, again, it is only problematic if we were to find out that this clique would be active sexually. The church teaching with regard to homosexuality -- the church is not against homosexuality. The church realizes that homosexuals exist just as everybody else. The problem is, the church says celibacy and these priests are supposed to be celibate. So, if they are not keeping their vows - and again, there were some reports unconfirmed in Italian media, like "La Republica," saying that some of these prelates (ph) were perhaps seen as gay bathhouses in Rome. Again, unconfirmed.

But if that were the case, that would open up to scandal then. So perhaps could these prelates or could these priests be blackmailed by those who had something against the Vatican to make the Vatican more vulnerable, perhaps? That was the concern when this report was released.

BALDWIN: OK, Father Beck, thank you.

Still to come tonight, a growing number of doctors opting out of the insurance system, refusing to accept private or public insurance. What does that mean for your coverage?

And the man accused of holding three women hostage for more than a decade was in court today. The surprising admission his lawyer made.

And next, good news and bad news for this biker.


BALDWIN: Our third story OUTFRONT, cash for care. A small but growing number of doctors are opting out of the insurance system, requiring patients to pay for their visits upfront. In fact, five percent of American physicians have gotten so fed up with regulations and paperwork that they are flat-out refusing to accept either private insurance or government programs like Medicare.

Christine Romans reports that some critics think patients may be paying too high a price.




CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: The family doctor from Portland, Maine used to do lots of paperwork -- so much it was taking time from his patients. So earlier this year, he stopped taking Medicare and other insurance altogether.

CIAMPI: We ask patients to pay at the time of service just like you would be expected to pay at time of service at your garage, at the barber shop, or at the grocery store.

ROMANS: Under his new system, Dr. Ciampi's prices are clearly marked on his Web site. $75 for an office visit. $150 for a complete physical. That is roughly in line with how much he had been receiving from Medicare and private insurance plans. With less paperwork, his operating costs are much lower as well.

CIAMPI: We have had real cost savings already in that that we have been able to cut the staff down. We have one full-time employee to support me, and she answers phones and draws blood and so forth. And so that's been a huge savings.

ROMANS: He says he now has more time to focus on patients and even make house calls. But for many patients, they can't pay out-of- pocket. Dr. Ciampi says he's lost a quarter of his roughly 2,000 patients. But he expects others to take their place.

He admits his model works best for those who either lack insurance or who have high deductibles. An hour north of Portland, another family practitioner, Dr. Michael Clark, understands Ciampi's frustration.

DR. MICHAEL CLARK, FAMILY PRACTICIONER: The idea of a streamlined, simplified billing and collection practice is very attractive. A lot of us hunger for a simpler structure to our practices where it can be about the care we give to patients.

ROMANS: But in this rural community, Dr. Clark felt he simply couldn't turn away as many senior patients who are reliant on Medicare. And some experts say other groups would be vulnerable.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are not that many patients who are able to put up with this. Some very rich patients, of course, they could do this. But a lot of low-income people couldn't afford the fees.

ROMANS: But with endless bureaucracy and costs that often seem out of control, some doctors are trying different tactics to stay in business.

Christine Romans, CNN New York.


BALWDIN: Still to come, the man accused of holding three women captive for a decade was in court today. Ariel Castro faces more than 300 charges. And his own lawyer says, yes, some of those charges are tough to deny. But does that mean prosecutors should seek the death penalty?

Plus her father was murdered when she was merely a little girl. For nearly three decades, she searched and searched for justice, and she now may have finally found it.

And this explosion killed more than a dozen people and vaporized part of a town. Why FEMA says it will not help rebuild.

But first tonight's Shout Out. This hot dogging motorcycle barreling down the road, there he goes. (INAUDIBLE) back wheel, loses control, smashes into the car in front of him. He was okay. That would have been the end of it except for one thing. The car he hit, yes. It was an unmarked police car. So after being hit the officer decides to jump out and introduces himself with a friendly hello.

Cops have such a tough job. So, tonight's Shout Out goes to this biker for making that officer's job so easy.


BALDWIN: We start second half of the show with stories we care about, where we focus on our own reporting from the front lines.

Beginning with FEMA. FEMA is denying the city of West, Texas, money to rebuild after the deadly plant explosion. In a letter to Governor Rick Perry, FEMA says the cost of the remaining work is within the capabilities of the state and the local government.

But we spoke to West Mayor Tommy Muska who says pipes were damaged that were not covered by insurance and the city is also experiencing large losses in tax revenue. Mayor Muska was not pleased with this decision, saying, quote, "President Obama said he would be behind us, he's so far behind us that we can't even see him anymore," end quote.

After six years in hiding, alleged mob boss James "Whitey" Bulger is finally standing trial, charged with murdering 19 people. Today, a prosecutor recounting crime after gruesome crime called Bulger a hands-on killer. Even his own attorney admitted his client was a loan shark and a drug dealer.

And earlier today, I talked to John "Red" Shea who once ran cocaine for Whitey Bulger. And here, he describes the advice Bulger once gave to him when he was arrested.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOHN "RED" SHEA, AUTHOR, "RAT BASTARDS": He said to me it takes a strong person to reach inside themselves and say, "I'm here because of me". You know what? He should follow his own preaching today right now. He is an angry man. This is his last hoorah.


BALDWIN: Trial is expected to go on for three months.

And tomorrow, a sold out Carnival Triumph is heading back to sea. Keep in mind, this is the same ship Triumph that four months ago left thousands of passengers stranded without power and dare I add, working toilets and showers. Remember this?

Carnival says it has spent $150 million to fix everything and then some. There is even a new burger joint and tequila bar. But this might surprise you: we checked with the CDC and even though cruise ships are subject to two unannounced sanitary inspections per year, the Triumph hasn't had one since July of last year.

Our fourth story OUTFRONT, trying to avoid the death penalty. Today, Ariel Castro pleaded not guilty to more than 300 charges of rape, kidnapping and murder.

Castro -- watch it me, silently head down here. Attorneys speaking, saying, well, some of the charges are indisputable. The plea is meant to avoid a trial.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A not guilty plea at this stage requires the prosecutor to continue to evaluate their case and determine whether medical and forensic evidence can actually support an aggravated murder conviction for the death of a fetus and whether the death penalty is warranted.


BALDWIN: So, Castro's attorney says that his client is willing to plea guilty to all of the charges except specifically to these two counts of aggravated murder over claims that Castro forcibly terminated pregnancies of at least one of the three women held captive in his home. And if those counts are dismissed, it would take death penalty off the table.

OUTFRONT tonight is Ohio's attorney general, Mike DeWine.

Mr. DeWine, nice to see you tonight. I want to talk specifically here about the death penalty issue, because according to prosecutors, this review board, the capital review committee is going to be sorting through evidence and in doing so, they're gong to decide whether this case is, quote/unquote, "appropriate to seek the death penalty."

I was in Cleveland. I remember when the stories and details were coming out about allegations of Castro kicking and punching, ultimately, violently forcing the abortions. If that isn't enough to seek death sentence, sir, tell me what is.

MIKE DEWINE, OHIO ATTORNEY GENERAL: I think what prosecuting attorney McGinty and his team have to look at is whether or not, under Ohio law, the evidence does, in fact, fit the crime of not only aggravated murder which, of course, it does, but whether the specifications can be added for the death penalty.

I think you can make a very good argument that it could. But the prosecuting attorney has got to make some tough choices. I think what any prosecutor does and what prosecutor McGinty has told me that he is going to do is let his board look at this but also, he is certainly going to consult the victims. He's certainly going to consult the victims' families and he's certainly going to consult the police that have investigated this. This is what any prosecutor will do and that's what prosecutor McGinty is going to do.

BALDWIN: You mentioned the victims. We haven't heard from these young women since the whole ordeal, finally, this whole thing ended. But I do want to point out the attorney of two of the young women, Amanda Berry and Gina DeJesus did say this today.

Let me quote, "We understand the legal process needs to run its course. We are hopeful for a just and prompt resolution. We have great faith in the prosecutor's office and the court."

And when I heard prompt resolution, you think, my goodness, you know, if this case goes to trial, given everything you have outlined, prompt may be, sir, you know, unlikely. Do you think that a plea deal would be a fair trade so that these women don't have to relive -- let's call it what it was -- hell in the court.

DEWINE: The victims are very central to this. You want to do what is right for the victims. And to determine that, you certainly have to take into consideration what their wishes are.

And as you point out a plea gets it over with very quickly. If you don't have a plea, it does not get it over with quickly. That doesn't mean you take the plea. It's just one of the things that anyone has to consider.

BALDWIN: Mike DeWine, Ohio attorney general, thanks for joining us tonight.

Now, a different crime taking decades to solve. A cold case brought back to life through a daughter's grief and determination. Twenty-six years after a little girl's father is murdered a now grown woman has helped track down his alleged killer.

Poppy Harlow is OUTFRONT.



POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's like a dream for Joselyn Martinez.

HARLOW (on camera): What's your greatest memory of your father?

MARTINEZ: Those parties we had at the restaurant.

HARLOW (voice-over): After 16 years, her father's alleged killer, arrested. His capture, thanks in large part to her.

MARTINEZ: My family told me, don't ever forget that name.

HARLOW: Joselyn was just nine when her father was murdered in 1986. Jose Martinez was shot and killed outside the New York City restaurant he and his wife owned. But the suspect Justo Santos fled to the Dominican Republic.

The NYPD says the murder case was closed in 1988 after receiving information that Santos was jailed in the Dominican Republic. What the NYPD didn't know was that, just a year later, Santos was released.

RAY KELLY, NEW YORK POLICE COMMISSIONER: They should not have closed the case. It should have been looked at to see if there was additional information as to whether or not he was out of jail.

HARLOW: In 2006, Joselyn started hunting online for her father's alleged killer, delving into Web sites like

(on camera): What did you find?

MARTINEZ: I didn't know I had so much stuff. I really didn't.

HARLOW (voice-over): After years of searching --

MARTINEZ: I'm like I think I have something. Let me look, let me look. I said, oh, my God. I had this person in the background check right at the top.

HARLOW: She took what she found here to the 34th Precinct in November.

MARTINEZ: Because November is my father's anniversary of my father's death, and I get upset. HARLOW: Police say it was only because of her efforts they were able to capture Santos.

KELLY: It's admirable what she did. Obviously, she made a concerted effort and it paid off.



IDALIA MARTINEZ: And my daughter has accomplished it.

HARLOW: A police source tells CNN, after Santos was arrested in Miami Thursday, he confessed to murdering Jose Martinez. MARTINEZ: It's been trying. All I wanted was to figure out what happened.

HARLOW (on camera): What do you think your dad would say?

MARTINEZ: You know, I think he would just hug me and smile. He would smile a lot.

HARLOW (voice-over): NYPD detectives are now in Miami and plan to bring Santos back to New York Friday. He will be arraigned next week and faces second degree murder charges.

Poppy Harlow, CNN New York.


BALDWIN: How about that?

Still to come tonight, a 10-year-old girl who fought and fought the system to get a lung transplant from an adult donor is finally getting surgery. Why one of our upcoming guests says maybe she shouldn't be getting this particular transplant.

Plus, the sign that says all restaurant employees must wash your hands after using the bathroom -- does it really work? A new study has the answer.


BURNETT: We are back with tonight's "Outer Circle" where we reach out to our sources all around the world and we begin in Iran and with Erin Burnett. As you know, she will be there live at this hour tomorrow night with reporting on the Iranian presidential elections and tonight, Erin is on the ground with a preview of what's going on there.

Here's Erin.


ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: This is Tehran in the final hours, final couple of days before the presidential election. The ground is littered with campaign posters. We have been spending the day at rallies and campaign headquarters. Traffic is terrible. A lot of people that here are actually coming from -- well, it depends on your candidate. Some of them were coming from, (INAUDIBLE), Tehran, others from Hassan Rouhani, supposedly the more reformist candidate. We visited his campaign headquarters as well. But all of them have had something to say to us.

And some of what they have had to say has been pretty shocking. Some of them have been positive about engaging for, example, with the United States and the West. Others have been completely the opposite. We have had incredible access and we are really excited to share it all with you.

Our special report live from Tehran begins tomorrow night live on OUTFRONT right here from Iran. Back to you, Brooke.


BALDWIN: It's incredible. Incredible access, Erin.

And Erin will be live from Tehran, as we mentioned tomorrow night, hours before the polls open in Iran's elections. Do not miss that live report.

Now, let's check in with Anderson Cooper with a look at what's going on, on "A.C. 360".

Hello, Anderson.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: I hope she has better luck than I had. I was arrested for three days. So --

BALDWIN: Yes, I know a lot of people aren't allowed in there. She got access.

COOPER: Yes, allowed back.

Erin -- sorry, Brooke, more on the breaking news. We look forward to what Erin is doing tomorrow from Tehran.

Brooke, we have more on the breaking news. This weather phenomenon called Derecho, wide wall of storms across the Midwest. Chad Myers is tracking that for us in the weather center.

We'll also go live to Colorado where the wildfires are still zero percent contained. Some dramatic images.

You will also hear from Sarah Murnaghan's mother about today's surgery that has just ended and given the 10-year-old a new lung. Dr. Sanjay has more on that.

And in the program last night, Congressman Peter King said journalists involved in the NSA leak story should be punished. He went further today, amid some very direct allegations against "The Guardian's" Glenn Greenwald, saying that he was threatening to reveal identities of CIA agents. We haven't been able to find any evidence Glenn Greenwald did that. And, in fact, we're going to talk to Glenn tonight on the program.

I will also speak with CBS this morning, senior correspondent John Miller, about Greenwald's source, about Edward Snowden, where Snowden may be now and should the U.S. be concerned about him sharing classified information perhaps with China. Those stories and tonight's "RidicuList" all at the top of the hour -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: We will see you at 8:00 Eastern. Anderson, thank you.

And, you know, Anderson mentioned Sarah Murnaghan. Let's go right to it.

Our fifth story OUTFRONT tonight: breaking news, a new shot at life tonight. Ten-year-old Sarah Murnaghan who needed a new set of lungs in order to survive is just out of transplant surgery. That is just into us here at CNN.

We talked about on the show. Murnaghan's family has fought long and hard to change the rules that kept those under the age of 12 from receiving adult organs. And after appealing to Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius, to no avail, they went to a federal judge who last week temporarily waived the rule.

Jason Carroll is OUTFRONT tonight.

And, Jason, bring us up to speed. You are at the hospital. She is out of surgery. How is she? What do you know?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's what we're hearing from a family spokeswoman who sent me an e-mail just a few minutes ago before we went on the air, saying that Sarah had come out of surgery. That right now, she is in ICU and apparently is doing as well as to be expected.

She is still not out of the woods yet. This was a very difficult surgery. There still can be a lot of complications. But at least at this point, we are hearing that she is doing well and that she is out of surgery here.

And just before 5:00 when 10-year-old Sarah was still in surgery, I managed to get her mother to come down and speak to us as well as her aunt about what this whole experience has been like for them and what's been like for their entire family.


JANET MURNAGHAN, SARAH MURNAGHAN'S MOTHER: Mostly relief because since Saturday, she has been in a medically induced coma and intubated and has been really hard. And there's no really good place to go from here. So, mostly feel relief, of course.

I'm a little nervous. You know, my baby is in that operating room. But I'm trying to focus on we did it. We have lungs. And she has hope and a future.


CARROLL: And, Brooke, her family also wanting to make the point that the real hero in all of this is the donor that made all of this possible, something possible now that would not have been possible two weeks ago -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: We wish her and the family well.

Jason Carroll, we will look for you. We'll look for the mother as Anderson said on "A.C. 360."

But at the same time, you know, Sarah's story is raising questions about the fairness of America's transplant policy.

So, OUTFRONT: CNN opinion writer Dean Obeidallah and CNN contributor Reihan Salam.

Hello, gentleman.

You know, listen, we just heard the news. She is out of surgery, which is great for her. But, Dean, let me begin with you, because it's a tricky story. But 75,000 people on a list for a transplant in the U.S., this young girl and her family they got everyone's attention, including that of this federal judge.

Do you think what they did was fair?

DEAN OBEIDALLAH, OPINION WRITER: I think for them -- first of all I want to say I'm happy for her and her family. We all want to live a great life.

But there is someone else now who doesn't have that lung transplant. And it could be someone else, watching, their son or their daughter, or their brother or their sister. So, while it is a feel good story for Sarah and her family, there is someone else now who didn't get the transplant because her family went around the rules and took advantage of going to court.

And don't forget, 10 percent of the people on the organ transplant list unfortunately don't survive. So, someone else is there with their family wanting their child or their brother and sister to survive while Sarah's family can rejoice.

So, I think going around the system that's been created by medical professionals under federal law is problematic, because it gets rid of the confidence we need in the system.

BALDWIN: At the same time, can you fault this girl's family for banging down the media's door? Trying to talk to Secretary Sebelius, I mean, all of the hurdles they had to go through.

Reihan, do you fault them?

REIHAN SALAM, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I don't. I think this family was incredibly scrappy and tenacious and they did everything they could for their daughter. And I'd say more power to them.

The bigger issue, however, is that we have a serious shortage of organs. We have an even more serious shortage of pediatric organs. And I think the fundamental problem is that we don't allow compensation for organs.

Now, that's an idea that makes a lot of people really uncomfortable. But a fundamentally, we either have to do one of two things, you either move to a system in which we presume consent, that is we assume that everyone who dies in a traffic accident or what-have-you has consented to become organ donors.

Whereas, now, you have default into the system, let's say you have to default out of the system to say you have some big objection. That would definitely increase the supply of organs available for donation. The other thing you can do is simply say that, look, we're going to allow, say, the Medicare system or say some other approach for people who make those donations who are taking a risk. It's not that big a risk but a risk to get compensation for what they are doing rather than depend only on the kindness of their hearts --

BALDWIN: But in terms of -- let me jump in and, Dean, I want you to jump in, too, because the idea of paying for organs --


BALDWIN: There is a list for reason, a list of need and acuteness for a reason. The idea of paying for organs, wouldn't that just mean, hey, whoever has the biggest purse strings maybe not related to --

SALAM: Absolutely not, Brooke. That's absolutely not what it means. That is one system that we could have. We could also have one organization in which we say there's only one organization that can compensate people. You can't make your own deals. Rather, let's say you have the Medicare system say we'll offer a rate, let's a modest rate. But we're offering some compensation the risks people are under taking.


BALDWIN: Dean, I want you to jump. Dena, you get the final word.

OBEIDALLAH: I like what Reihan said on the first part that we have an opt in system which is assumed, so it gives more --

BALDWN: Presumed consent, yes.

OBEIDALLAH: Right. Other countries do that. It's a good thing. The idea of having any kind of conversation for organs to me rubs me the wrong way. I think it goes against --


OBEIDALLAH: People don't have to have more money or celebrities to get better treatment under the system. We have to have fairness in the system. So, it can't be corrupted by --

SALAM: Fairness in which lots of people die because they don't get organs is not fairness at all. You need to increase a number of people who are making donation --

BALDWIN: Let me jump in --


OBEIDALLAH: The poor will suffer --

BALDWIN: Let me jump in. Let me jump in, gentlemen.

SALAM: Absolutely false, 0.03 percent mortality. It's very successful. It's very safe. BALDWIN: Let me just say we end with this and I talked to a lot of doctors about the story, if you are touched, no matter how you feel, if you're touched by this story, check the box become an organ donor.

Dean and Reihan, thank you very much.

Every night, we take a look outside the day's top stories. There is something we called OUTFRONT "Outtake", washing their hands one is of the best ways to avoid getting sick. And yet according to the shocking study, almost none of us do it correctly. Researchers at the Michigan State University discretely watched 3,749 people in public restrooms, maybe even you and found 95 percent did not wash their hands correctly.

The average person spends a mere six seconds scrubbing, nowhere near the 20 seconds the Centers for Disease Center recommends. What's more, they're not using soap, 20 percent not using soap and 10 percent left without washing their hands at all.

How about this? Gender also played a part, 15 percent of men didn't wash their hands compared to just 7 percent of the ladies.

It might not entirely be our fault, though. The researchers found the appearance of a bathroom, the appearance of the bathroom played a big part. The nicer, the cleaner the restroom the more likely people would hang around and wash their hands.

Gee, I'd like a little champagne in the bathroom and for the signs we make fun of, employees must wash hands sign. Apparently, they work apparently. Employees and customers were more likely to scrub down.

And now you know.

Still to come, you wish there was more transparency in the world, wait until you can see through brains.


BURNETT: You're fed up with the lack of transparency? Politics, Wall Street, maybe with your mechanic? A Stanford scientist may have figured out one way to provide some clarity, see-through brains.

Dan Simon is OUTFRONT with tonight's big "IDEA."


DR. KARL DEISSEROTH, INNOVATOR: Surface part of the brain --

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Dr. Karl Deisseroth isn't your typical doctor. He's an innovator. His research has won many prestigious awards. But this maybe his biggest idea yet, a whole new way at looking at the brain. High tech cameras provide a stunning look at cells and connections, images never captured before and only possible through a scientific breakthrough.

It's called Clarity, and this picture shows what happens. On the left, a completely intact brain from a mouse. On the right, a brain that is completely transparent. It's there but almost invisible after being bathe in a solution invented by the doctor and his team.

DEISSEROTH: Really, it was the inability to see anything at all that was the most exciting thing, and that moment was really, I think, a transformative moment.

SIMON: Later, through the use of fluorescence, you get these images. What makes this so significant is that in the past, this opaque organ had to be sliced open to get an inside view.

(on camera): So you lose something by taking it apart?

DEISSEROTH: You do, you do. And what we worked on, particularly this technology called Clarity is a way to see through the brain without taking it apart.

SIMON (voice-over): With the brain fully intact, scientists can study it more thoroughly.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: To be able to look inside the brain like this and look at all those various pathways that we've speculated on for years to see them actually come to life, it's -- it's fascinating.

SIMON: The process involving submerging a whole in tact brain into a solution called hydrogel that makes it easier to extract lipids or fats. You're then left with a fully transparent brain that can now be studied.

(on camera): By getting the unprecedented view of the human brain, the Dr. Deisseroth and his team here at Stanford hope it will lead to an unprecedented understanding of diseases like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. The long-term hope is that the research will leads to better treatment for those kinds of disorders.

DEISSEROTH: We don't understand really how the brain normally works to create reality, to create hope, to create sensations. If we don't understand that, then we can't understand how it fails to work in these diseases.

SIMON: The new bio technology is actually quite simple, that scientists say could further our knowledge of something extraordinary complex.

Dan Simon, CNN, Palo Alto, California.


BALDWIN: "A.C. 360" starts right now.