Return to Transcripts main page
Another "Victim" in Jodi Case?; Brooks Caught On Surveillance Tapes
Aired June 17, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, defending Jodi Arias and her parents. Friends, including a woman who fears for her life, are here. They say it`s not mom and dad`s fault that their daughter is a cold-blooded killer.
Plus, the trust fund baby murder trial. Surveillance video reveals his shocking behavior. How did the man on trial for strangling and drowning his girlfriend react when told about her death? Could he have cared less?
And my Twitter message for Amanda Bynes and hers for me.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening, everybody.
My co-host tonight is Samantha Schacher. She is host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network.
And, coming up, Jodi`s one-time friend tells me about the pain she has suffered as a result of Jodi`s actions. And a friend of Jodi`s parents say they are being victimized as well, perhaps by their daughter, perhaps those of us that are watching their daughter.
But, first, Jodi`s first jury deadlock on punishment. Will her defense try the same strategy with jury number two? Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She could never even imagine doing something so vile, and when she did something like that, so bad that she couldn`t even accept that she did it. She lied. She lied to herself. She lied to the detective. She lied to the media. And she lied to Travis`s family.
That is state`s own witness, Dr. DeMarte, came in and told you that Jodi suffers from borderline personality disorder. Jodi cannot choose to have a personality disorder or not. It is not her choice. In other words, she didn`t wake up one morning and think that it would be great to have a personality disorder. She was once a bubbly and happy little girl.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And Shanna Hogan is an investigative reporter and the author of the upcoming Jodi Arias book, "Picture Perfect."
Shanna, what is the latest news?
SHANNA HOGAN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER (via telephone): Hi, Dr. Drew. We`re hearing tonight that the county attorney has not made a definitive decision about whether or not they`re going to go forward with the death penalty and they`re considering some other ways to resolve the case. And if you resolve -- if you withdraw the intent to seek the death penalty, Jodi might get life in prison.
But there`s still that concern for parole, which is a big concern for Travis Alexander`s family. We`re likely to hear more on Thursday, which is upcoming hearing date. Thank you so much, Shanna. Joining us to discuss, attorney Areva Martin, attorney Mark Eiglarsh from SpeaktoMark.com, and Marcia Clark, former prosecutor and author of a new book, "Killer Ambition," which is out tomorrow.
Congratulations, Marcia. Let me ask you this, Marcia. What are they going back and forth about? Is it a plea deal in the making?
MARCIA CLARK, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Probably. I mean, after you have a hung jury after a case of this length and so much testimony, the one thing that they would all like to do is find closure without having to go through all of it again. And if there can be some agreement reached to avoid another penalty trial, which by the way would probably require a great deal of retrial of the initial murder itself, because that`s the main factor and aggravation, their main factor after imposing the death penalty, that`s it, the pain and torture, then they will avoid it.
Otherwise, they`re going to have to be going through this whole thing again.
PINSKY: Mark, I don`t know if you agree with that. Reeva, I`ll get you comments in just a second. But, Mark, I think closure is a television word. I think this just allows the family to escape further dismay from all this.
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Well, that`s correct. But I do agree with Marcia. I think that the defense`s definition of winning is doing everything they can to save her life, so they`re going to try as much as they can with the prosecution, try to get them to take death off the table.
But let`s make one thing very clear, the prosecutors will never do that if ever unless they are certain that she will not be able to get patrol. So, if the prosecution ever changes their mind, they`ll put out there, you agree to life without the possibility of parole and then we consider taking death off the table, if they ever agree to do it.
PINSKY: Areva, you agree?
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: I agree, Dr. Drew. I think the entire public is so exhausted by this case that if we could wake up tomorrow or one day and read the headlines that a deal has been reached and Jodi is going to spend the rest of her life in jail without the possibility of parole, as much as I think the public wanted to see this woman sentenced to death for this horrific crime, I think everyone will feel like justice has been served. You know, clearly, this is a case for it, but the closure is so important.
PINSKY: Samantha, I agree with Areva, although the word closure keeps coming up here. The fact is just the way we`re exhausted, can you imagine what the family is thinking?
SCHACHER: I can`t imagine what the family is feeling and I really sympathize for them. I want to point out the statement that we heard earlier from the defense, that Jodi Arias was essentially lying because she -- it was such a terrible act what she did to Travis. No, she was lying because she didn`t want to be caught. She was lying because she didn`t want to be held accountable for her actions.
PINSKY: And she was such a great lawyer, too. I mean --
MARTIN: Thank you for pointing that out, Samantha. I just wanted to --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Areva.
MARTIN: I wanted to say just quickly, if this does go to the penalty stage again, I hope the defense attorney doesn`t make that same argument. I was sitting here just ready to throw up listening to that. The woman lied because she`s a liar. The woman lied because she didn`t want to get caught. She didn`t want to face the consequences of her actions.
I think the jury is smart enough, it`s proven to be smart enough not to buy into that. So if there is a penalty phase of this case, let`s hope that there`s a more persuasive argument by the defense counsel.
PINSKY: Now, I want to switch gears and talk to Patti Womack. She asked us to introduce her as Jodi`s former friend.
And, Patti, I know you`ve been very emotional when talking about Jodi. Now, why has this triggered so much emotion for you?
PATTI WOMACK, JODI`S FORMER FRIEND (via telephone): Well, there`s a few things that it`s emotional for me. One thing is because Jodi used to be my best friend. And we shared so many great memories together, as children, and memories that I will always love and cherish.
So knowing that my former best friend, that I have amazing memories with, is, in fact, a murderer, it`s heartbreaking. And --
PINSKY: And, Patti, what ages were you guys best friends? From when to when?
WOMACK: Twelve to 20, we were best friends.
PINSKY: Twelve to when? I`m sorry, I missed that. Twelve to 20?
WOMACK: I`m sorry. We met each other when we were 12 years old. We continued to be best friends into our 20s. You know, we started to grow apart in our early 20s because I started a family, I got married and she moved up north. And -- but --
PINSKY: Do you think that what you were feeling intimately connected to was just a fantasy? That it`s not the person you thought she was? Because you didn`t think she was capable of this.
WOMACK: No, I didn`t think she was capable. In fact, everybody that was friends with her that are still my friends, we were all so shocked, and blown away. We were like how could this sweet, sweet girl ever do this?
This has to be a typo. This has to be a mistake. This has to be a joke. This could not be Jodi.
PINSKY: Let me interrupt you, Patti. I`m sorry. I`ve got a panel that`s anxious to speak with you.
Mark, you want to ask something first here?
EIGLARSH: Yes. I mean, it`s possible that between the ages of 12 to 20 she wasn`t ready or capable of killing. At some point after the fact, we know by her own admission, we know from the overwhelming evidence that she made that choice to premeditate and slaughter him.
So, her words are of value. We have some insight. You can do some work with that clinically, Drew.
EIGLARSH: But I`m not sure of the relevance at all in the actual penalty phase really.
PINSKY: Yes. And, Patti, I know you`ve taken a lot of heat for even being willing to say anything positive about her. How has that affected you?
WOMACK: Well, a couple people have made fake citations about me. And posted them on a few different Web sites saying, you know, I had drug problems, up to DUI, aggravated assault. And they`re just all lies.
I`ve never been in trouble, for one. Second of all, they have put my home address out there with a description of my house, where I live, and a map, you know? And one of the sites they put it on was State vs. Jodi and that site has over 50,000 people on it.
And so I`ve never ever received a death threat. But yes, I do fear for my safety because if you think 50,000 people, like the whole entire world, it seems like knows where I live, who I am, have pictures of me and my daughter on the Internet.
And so, it`s really emotional and really hard.
Samantha, you want to ask a question real quick? And hen we have to go to break.
SCHACHER: Doctor, I just wanted to ask you a question. Is there any advice you can give Patti? I cannot believe that she`s going through this. How -- how can you help her? How can she heal? How can she move forward?
PINSKY: Well, I think the reality is, she`s right, you can ignore a lot of this, that these aren`t explicit threats. And there are remedies out there if anybody does make an explicit threat to you.
But it can be challenging. Any of us that have a public life, the kinds of things that people say on the Internet are just brutal and awful. We`re going to talk about Amanda Bynes later in the show. It`s really tough.
For someone who doesn`t sign up for this, it can be really disturbing. And I feel bad for Patti. I understand why it happens. It makes sense to me.
Any of us, if we say anything that`s not in line with everybody`s opinion out there, we get smashed.
SCHACHER: Get attacked.
Next up, Jodi`s parents are paying a deep price as well for their daughter`s crime. We have a friend who`s here to talk about the parents and what the price they`re paying.
And later, surveillance tape from the night a young woman died. A man on trial for her murder, there he is. He`s on this tape. We`re going to analyze what he`s up to and what it means.
Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED MURDERER: When I was younger, I remember my mom used to work -- I guess she was working as a server with my dad`s restaurants my whole life. When I was around 11 or 12, she became a dental assistant.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was always calm. You know, crying. She needed money, forking out more money. My wife went, took time off work, got her to Rent U-Hauls, put down $2,500 to bring her down here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She will be haunted by what she did, by what she`s done to her own family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Time for the behavior bureau. Co-host still with me, Samantha Schacher.
Joining us, Jenny Hutt, host of Sirius XM radio, also forensic and clinical psychologist, Cheryl Arutt, behavior expert and body language expert Patti Wood, psychologist Wendy Walsh, author of "30-Day Love Detox." And Ken Pittenger.
Now, Ken knows Jodi`s parents and has written a letter in the local paper in support of Jodi`s parents after he had observed the harassment they had been subjected to. Here is just a part of it. Here we go.
"I`m writing this letter because I`m concerned about Bill and Sandy and their struggle to keep their business, Daddy O`s Restaurant, alive. While enduring a murder trial of their wayward daughter, additional pain is being brought on by people who wanted to inject vicious comments on Facebook and anonymous telephone calls, making threats and taunts, `Hope your daughter fries in hell`, unquote, quote, `Hope your business dies too,`" unquote.
Ken, thanks for joining us. We`re talking about the sort of collateral damage that Jodi has caused through social media and other means. Jodi`s actions harmed a lot of people.
But I guess the question I`m going to ask on the part of viewers and the people who make these sorts of horrible sorts of overtures, why should somebody have sympathy for Jodi`s parents? Ken? Do we have Ken here?
KEN PITTENGER, KNOWS, SUPPORT JODI`S PARENTS (via telephone): Yes. Most families occasionally have a wayward child, whether it`d be male or female. You can`t blame the parents, especially when a child as old as Jodi is, can`t blame the parents for the decisions she makes.
PINSKY: Well, Ken, let`s suspend that for a second and say people are judging them, and you`re asking for some sympathy. And I don`t disagree with you. But why? Why should people feel sympathetic?
PITTENGER: Because they`re not the guilty party. They`re victims as well as the family who`s lost their loved one.
PINSKY: Jenny, I saw you waving your head. Jenny, you want to ask a question of Ken?
JENNY HUTT, RADIO HOST; I just wanted to comment on that concept that they`re victims just like Travis`s family.
PINSKY: Go ahead, please.
HUTT: Look, I think there is some level of the fact that they`re victims, of course, because it`s their daughter who perpetrated a crime and now they`re being attacked. I get that. But what I don`t understand, and, Ken, maybe you can answer this is they`re longtime members of this community, right? So they should have roots there, and I would think that the community would be there to sort of hold them and help them during this horrible time.
Why do you think your community at large as a whole isn`t doing that?
PITTENGER: Well, I think they are to a degree since I wrote my letter to the editor. I think a lot of people just weren`t aware that Jodi`s parents were the owners of the Daddy O`s Restaurant.
PINSKY: And you`ve known this family for two generations. Reading your letter to the paper, which I had, it`s suggested that you knew the grandparents. We have no sense of them and who they are in their relationship. But could you ever, having known for them for two generations, have imagined -- although you dismiss families that have wayward families. I`ve worked with families that have unexpected problems emerged.
Is this a problem you could have ever imagined something like this happened?
PITTENGER: I can`t imagine it, but to that degree, I certainly understand the wayward daughter aspect, because I have one myself. But she didn`t go as far as Jodi has. She just has messed up her personal life and for her kids.
PINSKY: And just so we get a sense -- again, we only have what we see from afar from the couple. Jodi`s parents, they have a stable relationship, they operate that business together. Is that a fair description or is it different?
PITTENGER: I think it`s a fair description. They`re working hard to try and survive this mess that their daughter put them into.
PINSKY: And how are they doing?
PITTENGER: Well, I think they`re doing very well under the circumstances. It`s just a very painful thing to see their daughter go through this, especially for the mother. The dad is pretty angry that people are so vicious about it. But he`s not happy with his daughter either because he tried to get his daughter to break the relationship with this guy some time ago.
PINSKY: Oh, that`s interesting.
Ken, hang on there. I want to go to my bureau.
Cheryl, you have something to say? Go ahead, Cheryl, first.
CHERYL ARUTT, PSYCHOLOGIST: I do. Ken, it seems to me when I read your letter that you really wanted to reach out and do something for the parents because you identify with them, because you have a daughter you had trouble with, too.
Why do you think that so many people want to channel this energy and this kind of hatred toward the parents? What`s your understanding of what that`s about? Do you think it`s that their helpless and they can`t get at Jodi so they blame and get at the parents?
What`s your feeling about why this is happening to the Arias family?
PITTENGER: I think because we had a degenerate society that`s going downhill, and it`s just their own frustrations about what`s going on with their own lives. That`s my psychology.
PINSKY: I understand, I`ve got a group of them here.
Wendy, I`ll let you comment. It`s a pretty profound statement Ken is suggesting. What do you think?
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think he`s talking about the disassociation and the isolation that so many young people are experiencing when they get away from their roots that are keeping them shaped. But I`ll tell you why these parents deserve our sympathy, because there but for the grace of God go us. I mean, every parent out there lives thinking I`m trying to do the best job I can, but what if -- because as psychologists, we know that sometimes perfectly healthy families produce crazy kids, and sometimes crazy families produce healthy kids.
So, it`s not all just about parenting, and people should be careful about judging, because it`s sometimes it`s biological predisposition.
PINSKY: Well, biology has all kinds of stuff.
Sam, I`m going to give you a chance. Patti, I see you nodding your head vigorously.
PATTI WOOD, BEHAVIOR EXPERT: Yes, I just think about those parents being exposed. I mean, they are vulnerable to attack. When you`re feeling all that vitriol, that the public is feeling about this case, they`re vulnerable to having other people`s anger absolutely fired at them.
And that`s unfortunate. I think people want a place to put that anger, and this is where they`re doing it.
SCHACHER: It`s beyond dangerous, Dr. Drew. Listen, it`s one thing to be angry. It`s another thing to be threatening them. They`re going through their own personal hell.
You can`t blame the parents. They can`t be held accountable for their daughter`s heinous crime.
PINSKY: Well, you know, listen. It`s funny, we talked to Patti Womack before, who was feeling physically threatened, her daughter`s safety was in question. My Twitter just went off like crazy. People telling me do my homework, Patti`s a liar, they`re attacking her, just because we questioned her about what it feels like to be under the gun with this.
SCHACHER: And she`s never condoned Jodi Arias.
PINSKY: Listen, the point is this is brutality, people are acting out through the Internet and it`s getting a little dangerous. I agree with you. Just stop and think about this a little bit. They didn`t ask for this.
And we`re making the point that some of this comes from genetics. Some of it comes from who knows what. Not from people that cause it in their family system. I think the behavior bureau has made an important point.
Thank you, guys.
And thank you, Ken. It`s really interesting. Hopefully, we`ll talk to you again.
Jenny, you want to put a button on this?
HUTT: Yes, I just wanted to say, I think Ken`s whole message was love thy neighbor. Wouldn`t it be better if everybody tried to sort of help the parents? We can`t undo the horrible thing that Jodi Arias did. We can`t. But as a society, we could move forward --
PINSKY: And, we`ll singing kumbaya, Jenny, it will be great, it will be awesome.
HUTT: That`s what I think.
PINSKY: Next, caught on tape. See -- we`re going to look at the surveillance video from the night a young fashion designer was killed. That`s the man alleged to have done it.
And later, I join the long list of people Amanda Bynes has ripped into. I`ll show you what made her mad at me and what I had intended by that -- was certainly not the way she received it.
Be right back.
UNIDENTIFIED FERMALE: The pain, it`s so terrible.
ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A young swimsuit designer allegedly murdered at a private club by her own boyfriend.
PINSKY: Nicholas Brooks is charged with choking and drowning her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She had marks internally, but not on the outside of her lips, which indicate that someone put their hand over her mouth.
CHO: A series of surveillance photos taken from video of that club just may back it up. Cachay`s body was found in submerged water in an overflowing bathtub.
PINSKY: New York`s exclusive Soho House.
SCHACHER: She was a member of the Soho House, which is a really exclusive membership. I tried to get into the Soho House, they didn`t let me in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has to pay for my daughter`s life, her beautiful life.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host Samantha Schacher. The trial of the trust fund baby Nicholas Brooks continued today.
Samantha, I`m sorry, you still can`t go to the Soho House. We`re not going to let you -- likes of you in there. But I can`t imagine why you would want to go there, with all -- well, I don`t want to speak negatively about them. It`s -- I`m sure people are curious about this kind of thing.
He, this trust fund guy is charged with second-degree murder in the grisly death of his fashion designer girlfriend, Sylvie Cachay. Surveillance tape from that night, we`ve got our hands and it shows at the Soho House in New York, again.
Samantha, tell us about that club. It`s very exclusive, right?
SCHACHER: It`s extremely exclusive. There`s one in New York, there`s one in Los Angeles, I believe there`s one in London. And it`s not only a hotel or a place that hang out, a lounge, a bar, but it`s an exclusive membership. So in order to hang out there, in order to spend the night there, you have to have a membership.
PINSKY: OK. I think I`ve been to the one here. They would not have the likes of me. I visited. It`s nice. These places are nice.
SCHACHER: I`m sure they would love to have the likes of you.
PINSKY: I think you`re wrong. You and I will sit on the outside and look longingly at the cool kids who get to go.
Now, we have more images of Nicholas. We`re going to show you more shortly. I want to introduce my panel now, starting with Marcia Clark, Mark Eiglarsh, Areva Martin. They`re all back with us.
And joining us is Anne Peyton Bryant who is attending the trial. She`s there in the room.
So, Peyton, the detective says, I guess it was today testified that Nicolas didn`t have any reaction when he told this young man that his girlfriend was dead.
ANNE PEYTON BRYANT, INSIDE THE COURTROOM: That`s correct. In fact, they asked him at the time -- they actually told him purposefully that his girlfriend had not died. They gave very vague information. He did not ask if he could see her, didn`t ask what had happened to her, basically had zero reaction at all, which is very telling.
Anybody in those circumstances you expect to have a strong reaction to ask if she was hurt, whether he could see her, whether she was at the hospital. He was basically had no reaction.
PINSKY: And what else, Peyton, happened in court today?
BRYANT: Today in court, we heard from two detectives. We also heard from a very emotional friend of Sylvie Cachay, who she read the text message between herself and Ms. Cachay, and the days before her death, she broke into tears. The court took a short recess.
Thereafter, the defense counsel asked for a mistrial during the break while the jury was away. The judge denied that request, but it was very emotional for the family and everyone in the courtroom to watch.
PINSKY, HOST: Mark, the witness sobs on the stand and the defense get to ask for a mistrial. Is that just reaching for anything? It doesn`t seem right to me.
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: You didn`t learn anything from Jodi Arias? Us, defense lawyers, our purpose is to ask for a mistrial as often as possible so that there`s an issue on appeal. If you don`t ask for a mistrial at the time, you haven`t preserved your right to argue that on appeal. So, they`re anticipating a conviction primarily because the defendant amongst overwhelming said to law enforcement when he was initially arrested, how long could I get for something like this?
PINSKY: Right. Now, back in 2010, Nicholas, his attorney, have this to say about the surveillance video. The same surveillance video we`re looking at, but look at this little piece.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFFREY HOFFMAN, NICHOLAS BROOK`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The surveillance video is properly preserved and will show that the facts are different than were stated by the district attorney. I believe will show that there was at least one, if not more than one other person, other people involved in going in and out of that room during the time period of the events.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Whoa, whoa, whoa, Dr. Drew. Why would he even state that if it`s not a murder, if it was an accident? That`s indicating that there is a murder.
PINSKY: Well, not only that, Marcia, maybe it`s the ninjas like Jodi had arranged. We`re going to look at that video. No one goes out of the room except Brooks. So, what`s he talking about?
MARCIA CLARK, AUTHOR, "KILLER AMBITION": I think that he`s talking out of whatever a different orifice than he should be. And that the really --
EIGLARSH: Which one was that, Marcia?
CLARK: Oh, no you don`t. You got me to say KY jelly. We`re not --
PINSKY: Listen, I`m just learning so much about defense lawyers. It`s not just that you ask for mistrials all the time. It`s that you talk out of different orifices. Mark, I thought it was just you.
BRYANT: Dr. Drew, there was actually one other person that did enter the room and that was the ice boy. He entered the room for less than a minute. So, he did come in to the room and left very quickly, and the defendant went out into the hallway and met this individual, let him into the room, and he came right back out. So, there was one other person that entered the room, but he hardly (ph) had designed to murder this woman in the fashion that she died.
You have a defense attorney out here contradicting his own client`s statement. I mean, it doesn`t get any worse than that. I mean, the client has basically said consistently in the beginning, at least, it was an accident and she drugged herself and she fell, et cetera. And now, he`s out trying to throw blame on someone else.
I mean, this is a very bad misfire by the defense attorney, and as Peyton said, it contradicts the evidence, and the guy who`s bringing the ice has probably got no motive, I`d guess.
PINSKY: Yes. Areva, go ahead.
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: Yes. The real issue we`re going to see played out in this case, Dr. Drew, is the strangulation. We`re going to hear from the medical examiner that this whole theory that she was drugged and she somehow slipped in the tub, it`s just not -- it`s not a credible story. You know, we saw this happen when, you know, the unfortunate death of Whitney Houston, who, you know, was later found to have had an accidental of death in a tub.
But unlike that case, in this case, the ME has already said this woman was strangled. It`s a homicide. So, this whole theory about her slipping in a tub -- you know, I`m so sick of these defendants who kill people and then come up with these stories they think jurors are stupid, and they`re not. They`re just not.
CLARK: Dr. Drew, you should really remember to say that people should know she was wearing a sweater and pants. You know, she was not unclothed in the bathtub.
CLARK: So, I don`t know how many people take a bath with a sweater on.
MARTIN: She wasn`t taking a bath, clearly.
SCHACHER She doesn`t even like taking baths. She hated taking baths (ph).
PINSKY: It looks bad, guys. Thank you very much.
Next up, the behavior bureau breaks down the surveillance tape. Be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The pain, it`s so terrible. I think it`s like if you take a knife and you just leave it there, and it will never come out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What this man did to my daughter ruined our lives, ruined my family. He has to pay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He looked like he didn`t care. He didn`t care. I didn`t see any remorse.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Time again for the behavior bureau. Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher and back with us, Cheryl Arutt, Wendy Walsh, and Jenny Hutt, and behavior expert, Patti Wood. Here now is more of the surveillance tape which shows Nicholas brooks acting strangely on the night of his girlfriend`s death, walking around in the hall.
If you look carefully, he apparently is barefoot there. Patti, can you help us look at this tape and is there anything you`re seeing there that some of us might not see immediately.
PATTI WOOD, BEHAVIOR EXPERT: So much. The pacing back in forth like a caged animal, very unusual. How he keeps doing that self-comfort cue, checking himself out in the mirror just before he gets on the elevator and goes downstairs, like wiping away his guilt, wiping away his guilt. Do I look --
PINSKY: Hang on, Patti. Let`s see that again. There we go. Please put that tape up again. Start back on the hallway thing.
PINSKY: Just caught him looking in the mirror a little bit.
WOOD: Actually --
PINSKY: So, he`s what, he`s touching his face and --
PINSKY: And just making sure he`s there, basically.
WOOD: Yes, and he pushes back his hair and looks at himself in the mirror. Do I look like I`m guilty? Do I look like I`m guilty, and he does that before he goes down that elevator. He does that several times. I actually --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Patti.
WOOD: Actually, there, when you see that behavior right there, that check in.
PINSKY: Yes. There it is.
WOOD: Many times he`s actually leaning in towards the mirror. And the pacing gets very fast at some point. That`s where I feel that caged animal in him. And also, when they check in, initially when they check in, I actually consult with hotels around the world on the front desk check-in experience, and you actually see him getting a very broad stance, and then protect the whole front of his body with a pillow.
Here, he`s going downstairs later in the evening. He`s leaning on the desk. All of these behaviors is going back to the scene of the crime and coming back again. That is an indication of fear. You`ve heard typically of the fight-flight response. It`s actually freeze flight fight fall or faint response. He`s running away and going back again. Running away and going back again. This is not normal behavior.
PINSKY: Right. Right. And he was intoxicated severely, as I understand. Jenny, you`re shaking your head. What do you want to say?
JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: I think his whole story is such a nightmare, Dr. Drew. I mean, my single days are long gone, but I`ve got a daughter and I look at this circumstance and I think my kid`s going to make some choices that aren`t so great. Every girl does. We`ve all dated the wrong guy. It`s just the wrong guy. Again, doesn`t typically end up killing us.
He might be a bad boy. He might be, like in this case, this guy was younger. Maybe she was trying to take care of him. Maybe the sex was out of control. That happens and we get sucked into it. How do you prevent it from being something disastrous like this? It`s just a horror show, Dr. Drew. Just nothing but tragic.
PINSKY: All right. Wendy, I want to go to you first. Wendy, this is, in fact, what does happen to some young women when they get involved in these projects, these men that are so exciting but not available, and I can fix them.
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., AUTHOR, "THE 30-DAY LOVE DETOX": Exactly.
PINSKY: Is that what`s going on here, a successful young woman dates a guy who she ends up -- by the way, we keep calling him a trust fund child. The fact is, apparently, was cut off by his family and is broken (ph). She was supporting him financially, but go ahead, Wendy.
WALSH: Before I explain that, I want to make a note, doesn`t this surveillance footage totally remind you of the Van Der Sloot stuff from Peru? Remember, when he killed that girl in the hotel room? Oh, my goodness.
WALSH: So, now, I think this is a girl -- remember, this relationship, this boyfriend is less than six months. She knew at the very beginning that he was a loser, so to speak. But rather than -- you know, people who can securely bond and exchange and give care in a safe way, they move away from that. Instead, that excited her. She got into it. She moved closer.
She made him her project. She gave him to-do lists, basic stuff like, you know, take a shower and take out the trash and stop smoking so much weed, right? Things that you would expect someone to do before you even went on a second date with them. So, the point is that they became so enwrapped with each other in only six months.
WALSH: And I would call this a kind of traumatic bond in that sense.
SCHACHER: Dr. Drew, how do women prevent this from happening? Because I`ve been guilty in the past of trying to change a guy. Not to this extent, but --
PINSKY: Listen, I`m going to go to Cheryl next to see if she can answer that question. And also, Wendy was using a little code there for you and I in terms of the secure attachment versus somebody who has an insecure attachment. The bottom line is, we act out our traumas from our childhood.
And if you have an unavailable father or you have somebody that traumatizes you, you will reenact that in your adult choices later on. I don`t know what happened to her. I don`t know why this kind of choice, but Cheryl, you go ahead.
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, you know, I was listening to everybody talking about this. And this was a brief relationship. But I`ve got to think if there were a dynamic successful young guy or kind of a guy in his 30s who found a sort of self-destructive tragic sexy as hell (ph) young woman to kind of take care of and have hot sex with, that would be something that nobody would really think twice about.
But I think the fact that the older woman was doing this with a guy, this was a himbo. This was not somebody she was shopping for a big partnership life. She wasn`t looking for a second date, do you have this stuff for a real partnership. I think she was drawn to him because he was cute, he was sexy, and she was maybe seeing --
ARUTT: -- clean this up a bit so he can be presentable.
WALSH: I think, sometimes, people have such abandonment issues they choose someone that they think they can control. She can control him with her money. She controlled him with her age and her wisdom, and that way he won`t leave me. I`ll just shake him, but he`s not going to leave me.
PINSKY: But, and Samantha to answer your question, in reality, he was not available emotionally so she ends up reenacting the trauma. So, here`s the deal. If you have a pattern of reenacting and picking the wrong guy, that`s the time you get treatment. Most people when they go through these sorts of cycles in their late teens or early 20s, learn from it and don`t do that anymore. Samantha, that may or may not be your --
PINSKY: I know all you guys have been stalkers. We established that back in the Jodi Arias days.
HUTT: Trackers, Dr. Drew, trackers.
PINSKY: Trackers. I beg your pardon, Jenny. I beg your pardon.
PINSKY: Next up, Amanda Bynes says guess who -- hang on, guys. There, guess what. I`m ugly. I was going to start my Twitter -- well, we`ll find out about that. We will tell you all about how I got to be ugly to Amanda Bynes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANDA BYNES, ACTRESS: I`m very lucky I have a great family and I just have my eye on the prize, which for me is a long career and I just -- I don`t want to -- I don`t want to blow what I`ve worked so hard to, you know, to achieve.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with the behavior bureau and my co-host, Samantha Schacher. Six years after that interview, Amanda Bynes developed some peculiar behavior, and a lot of you have been asking what is up with her. So, this weekend, I ended up on the receiving end of angry Amanda. And I want to explain how it started not that anybody -- I just want to explain it.
I have been receiving lots of tweets from people asking me to help Amanda Bynes. I mean, really, like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds. And I was sitting there Saturday morning thinking, look, people seem to have a misunderstanding. She lives 3,000 miles away from me. I don`t have a license to practice medicine in New York. It`s not exactly ethical to intrude into somebody`s life. I don`t know this young lady.
So, I -- and these tweets were getting more aggressive Saturday morning like how dare I not go help her? So, I thought I needed to say something. So, here`s what I tweeted on Saturday morning. I thought I was being supportive to Amanda. I said I think it`s time to leave her alone. She will get help if she wants it and if she needs it, hopefully, before serious consequences.
I meant to say, you know, look, if she wants it, she`ll get it. If not, hopefully, she won`t hurt herself. But God bless her, we need to leave her alone. But then she tweeted -- Samantha, you`ll love this -- about an hour later. "what are you talking about -- no, it`s not that it. No, no, no, no. No, no, no, no. That`s not it.
SCHACHER: The ugly one.
PINSKY: The other one. The other picture. It said, "what are you talking about? What kind of help -- there it is. Below me there -- what kind of help are you referring to? You`re ugly and I want you to leave me alone."
PINSKY: And now, Jenny, you`re laughing --
HUTT: Hold on. Forget about it. That is nothing. Dr. Drew, I was called Jenny the Hutt after Joba the Hutt when I was overweight. I`ve been there on the Twitter hate. Being called ugly, first of all, you`re handsome. And second of all, that`s like saying "no, you are." I mean, really, she could have done better.
SCHACHER: And Amanda has called so many people ugly. You`re part of a very exclusive club, Dr. Drew, ore exclusive than the Soho Hot (ph). Rihanna, Drake, Miley Cyrus. She`s called them all ugly.
PINSKY: Wendy, you`re laughing.
WALSH: Well, I`m laughing because I`m wondering is she just way Twitter smarter than the rest of us and she knows --
PINSKY: Wendy, it`s so funny you said that. It`s so funny you said that. When I read that Twitter, I laughed out loud. I thought, this girl`s really funny. She`s very talented. Maybe she is pulling one over on us. But then --
WALSH: She has more than two million followers.
SCHACHER: And they can be mean spirited. She has said far worse about Rihanna.
PINSKY: Well, and listen, I received over 2,000 responses of people either trying to explain that I was trying to be supportive of Amanda or attacking me for daring to do whatever. I wasn`t trying to do anything. Go ahead, Jenny.
HUTT: But at this point, Dr. Drew, I`m going to beg and plead, please do not be a mackerel. Do not take the bait. No need. You can`t now engage in like a Twitter war with Amanda Bynes.
PINSKY: No, no, no, no.
HUTT: You`re just way above it.
ARUTT: Dr. Drew, she missed that you were trying to be supportive. And I think that`s really, really important.
PINSKY: I understand that.
ARUTT: When somebody gets really -- when they`re having trouble, they miss the olive branch. They miss the reaching out.
PINSKY: Right. That`s right. That`s right.
ARUTT: I think you`re a member of an exclusive club.
PINSKY: I appreciate that. We got to take a break. And we`re going to look at some of the behaviors that happened over the weekend and try to see if there`s something really we need to be worried about here.
PINSKY: I`m back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher. Radar Online reports that Amanda Bynes confronted a person who tried to take her photo this weekend. Some media reports say that her behavior has been an act. Samantha, I`ll start with you. Obviously, we`re just trying to figure out is she OK or not. Some people are worried. What do you say?
SCHACHER: OK. A lot of people are saying it`s either an act. She`s trying to be funny. Some people are saying it`s a narcissistic ploy for attention. No, Dr. Drew. It`s been a year of erratic behavior. A laundry list of questionable acts of behavior from locking herself in bathrooms, from arrests to shaving her head.
PINSKY: OK. All right. So, hold on. Shaving head for me, Cheryl, because I`ve got just like 20 seconds for everybody to comment here. We have very limited time. Up against the clock. Cheryl, shaving the head, that seems hypomanic symptomatology. What do you see here?
ARUTT: I do think it can be hypomanic. I think it`s acting out. When you somebody who looks so together, who suddenly, in a year, starts to really veer off course multiple, multiple times, we`ve got to wonder what`s going on here, and it could be mania or hypomaniac. It could be something like that.
PINSKY: Wendy, your thoughts?
WALSH: I`m actually more concerned -- more interested -- sorry. I`m more interested, Dr. drew, to know -- I`m more interested to know what you think happened based on her age. I mean, we`re suddenly seeing this dive. All of a sudden, she seems so composed -
PINSKY: Listen, Wendy --
WALSH: -- together only four or five years ago.
PINSKY: Wendy, listen, Cheryl, you and i, we`re all the licensed people here. We know 18 to 22 is when bad stuff comes online, biological stuff like hypomania and thing, and that`s a concern. That`s all. Listen, we wish her only the best. Jenny, go ahead.
HUTT: I just want to say, but this is again where I go back to, where are the people in her life? Where are her friends? Her actual friends?
PINSKY: Well, they may be fighting back. They might be fighting the way back. She`s obviously isolating. And to say this is act doesn`t make to me. It`s just concerning, that`s all, that somebody might be wrong. And so, listen, I apologize -- my intent was not to upset her. It was to support her. Let`s all leave her alone.
And hopefully, if -- like I said, if she needs it, hopefully, she`ll get it. If she wants it, hopefully, she`ll reach out. And, God bless, I hope she does OK.
SCHACHER: And the people on Twitter, please stop encouraging her.
PINSKY: It`s not helping. "Last Call" is next.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Samantha.
SCHACHER: Dr. Drew, I just want to say what a great show, and thank you for having me. I look forward to the rest of the week.
PINSKY: It is our pleasure having you. It was a good show. Thank you, Samantha Shacher. Thank you to all our guests tonight. Of course, thank you all for watching. We`ll see you next time. "HLN After Dark" starts right now.