Return to Transcripts main page


Tony Soprano Actor Dead at 51; Trust Fund Kid on Trial; Gandolfini Had Possible Heart Attack

Aired June 19, 2013 - 21:00   ET



DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the burning bed. Rich kid suspect in the murder of his gorgeous girlfriend torched her apartment the very night she died, the night they checked into an exclusive New York club.

Plus, who or what is really on trial in Trayvon Martin`s death, George Zimmerman, race, self-defense?

And we`re getting ready to see Jodi Arias for the first time since her conviction.

Let`s get started.


PINSKY: Good evening.

My co-host tonight is Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network.

Now, Samantha, before we get off to the Soho House murder, we have some breaking and very sad news. Actor James Gandolfini has died. The man who was Tony Soprano died on vacation in Italy. We are hearing that it was a heart attack. Gandolfini was 51.

Let me, Samantha, explain. People have confusion about what a heart attack is and what sudden death is. Heart attack is when a clot forms in one of the major arteries to the heart, blood supply is cut off to the heart muscle, it dies, rhythm problems develop. And when somebody dies suddenly like this, it is often called sudden cardiac death, often a large heart attack, often something catastrophic, rhythmically happens, and that, apparently, is what happened here.

I`ve heard, you know, people, you throw around terms like stroke. This is not a stroke that we know of. They keep saying heart attack. The thing about heart attacks, Samantha, is there are things you can do to reduce your risk.


PINSKY: In his case, is he 51?

SCHACHER: So young, he`s 51 years old. And we don`t know if there was history in the family. And of course, you know, earlier on in his career, after his previous divorce, you know, people did speculate that there was some drug usage there. Of course, this is all speculation.

But you know, he was overweight, but I`m looking at the pictures and there is plenty of other people on the show that were more overweight than him. He just looks more like a big guy.

PINSKY: And although being overweight does not help things.

SCHACHER: Right, no.

PINSKY: The real risk factor is high blood pressure, hypertension, high cholesterol, hyper cholesterol, a family history of early heart disease, tobacco. I don`t see any evidence of using tobacco, and if there was drug use, people -- again, this is not for him, but for people using drugs, it is the stimulants, particularly cocaine that puts the risk for heart attacks way up. Even people without coronary heart disease can have heart attacks, but it`s very sad.

SCHACHER: Very sad.

PINSKY: Everyone, I`ve heard ever speak about him, speaks about him in the most glowing of terms. We actually have some tweets that are coming in from celebrities.

Mario Batali, one of my favorites, said, "I am totally shocked and devastated by the passing of one of my oldest and dearest friends. I only hope to help his family any way I can in their grief."

SCHACHER: Wow. And he leaves behind, Dr. Drew, his wife and two kids. His daughter is just over a year old.

And you know what? One of my favorite stories, if I can share quickly, that I was told about James Gandolfini is when he received a huge bump in his pay salary and the other cast members did not, he actually gave each of the regular cast members $33,000 each. That`s how generous he was. That`s how so many people that worked with him said that he was such a great and humble and generous person. He will definitely be missed.

PINSKY: Let`s keep looking at some of the tweets that reflect that. Steve Carell says -- he starred in "The Incredible Burt Wonderstone" with Gandolfini, and said, "James Gandolfini, what a great loss".


PINSKY: Also, HBO released a statement that says, in part, "We`re all in shock and feeling immeasurable sadness at the loss of a beloved member of our family. He will be deeply missed by all of us."

SCHACHER: So, surreal. What a talented actor he was. He somehow like gave likability, you know, to a mobster. He was such a talented actor.

PINSKY: Well, humanity. He brought them to life. Those say that was the best television ever created.

SCHACHER: I agree.

PINSKY: And there`s piece of that history leaving with him. But the family, his wife, his children, people that knew and love him, our thoughts and prayers go out to everyone.

SCHACHER: Absolutely.

PINSKY: We will bring you updates throughout the show as we get them. This is an unfolding story. Apparently he was in Italy, and again, we`re hearing heart attack, meaning heart muscle damage and sudden death.


PINSKY: Switching gears, we`re going to go out to another desk story. This now in the Soho murder trial we`ve been following. The relationship between a now-deceased swimsuit designer and her trust fund boyfriend was, well, problematic? Is that a reasonable way to call it?

We`ll get into it with the behavior bureau, but it ended in a murder charge against him. Listen to the evidence. Anything but a perfect murder, however. Take a look at this tape.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve got a woman that killed herself in the bathtub. She`s drowning. She`s unconscious. She`s not breathing. We found her in the tub.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They went through the hotel looking for where the water was coming from, but when they finally got to their room and they went into the room, the water in the tub was on full blast.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His DNA was found on the tub box, where the controls were. Her lungs were twice the size of human lungs, that they were filled with CO2.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She came to the Soho House that evening to get a good night sleep before work. Nicholas Brooks had set a fire in her apartment. Her entire bed was charred. Mr. Brooks was a stoner and he had put these candles at the head of her bed.

She wanted to end this relationship. She wanted to change the locks on her house. She was fed up with this guy.

PINSKY: She told him to get a job, get out of bed, stop smoking pot, clean up after himself. One of her friends took the stand and testified that Sylvie complained, "He told me he wanted to have sex all the time like a, you know, the "F" word, rabbit." After one of Sylvie`s friends testified in court, Nicholas`s sister allegedly mouthed the words "awful (EXPLETIVE DELETED).


PINSKY: Joining us, Jenny Hutt, Sirius XM Radio host and attorney herself, also attorney Mark Eiglarsh from, Lauren Lake, attorney and host of TV`s "Paternity Court"; and Anne Peyton Bryant, she`s also an attorney who supports Sylvie`s families. She has been our eyes and ears in the court.

Now, Peyton, my understanding is there were three key witnesses today. I want to hear particularly about this one gentleman who seemed sort of an unlikely witness. Let`s put it this way. He described himself as a 53- year-old gay jazz musician. Tell me about that guy.

ANNE PEYTON BRYANT, INSIDE BROOKS COURTROOM: That`s correct. He meets Brooks in a lobby of the Soho House. They`re complete strangers and they go to a bar and start snorting coke. They then go back to the basement of his apartment where they snort more coke, and finally, Brooks goes back acting like he`s in shock, to the Soho House at 5:30 in the morning.

PINSKY: Did he -- did he -- I understand he also tried to get an alibi with this guy, telling him he needed a key or something? Can you tell me about that?

BRYANT: That`s correct. He -- this story just keeps getting more and more bizarre. Not only did he tell him that his father wrote the song "You Light Up My Life," but he also said I might get locked out tonight, so I need to get your number in case I`m locked out of my hotel room. Never mind that he lived a few blocks away, Sylvie lived a few blocks away. There`s a 24-hour concierge.

He thought maybe his room was going to be cordoned off by police, I guess.

PINSKY: Pretty good instincts on that.


PINSKY: I want to play an excerpt from the 911 call. Take a listen to this.


CALLER: We need somebody here immediately, please.

DISPATCHER: Is CPR being done?

CALLER: We`re trying CPR, yes.

DISPATCHER: Who`s doing CPR?

CALLER: It was one of the night managers. Now the cops are here.

DISPATCHER: Tell them just keep doing CPR, but they`re absolutely sure that she`s not breathing?

CALLER: She`s not breathing, no. EMS is here.

DISPATCHER: No problem. All right, they`ll help you then take over. All right, bye.


PINSKY: All right, Peyton. The medical investigator who examined Sylvie at the crime scene said she had bruises on her neck above where my tie is, among other injuries consistent with having been choked. Something bizarre happened on cross examination today. Can you tell me about that?

BRYANT: Yes, this defense attorney decided that he was going to do a live demonstration on the female prosecutor of how these bruises got on her neck, and he went up behind the female prosecutor and grabbed her on the neck in front of the jury. I mean, you could practically hear the courtroom gasp. It was such a lack of professionalism and sensitivity. I`ve never seen anything like that.

PINSKY: Well, while I see outrage on Lauren and Jenny, Mark, you always tell me defense attorneys will do anything to defend their witness.

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Well, I can relate. I`ve wanted to put my hands around the neck of certain prosecutors, but I wouldn`t and I certainly wouldn`t do it in court.

Listen, desperate times calls for desperate measures. When you look at the medical examiner`s report and the evidence is so consistent with strangling, yet, you`re suggesting she drowned with normal doses of drugs in her system, which I think it was Xanax or something, then you`ve got to do something desperate and that`s what --

PINSKY: Mark, it wasn`t even anything as sedating as Xanax. It was a stable medication for -- it was really like antidepressant medicines more than --

EIGLARSH: Desperation, then.

PINSKY: Right. Jenny, you`re shaking your head.

JENNY HUTT, RADIO HOST: There`s so many issues I have here. Did you -- my earpiece isn`t so great. Did you say that the defense put the hands around the neck?

BRYANT: The attorney decided to do a live demonstration.

HUTT: Why would the defense --

BRYANT: What he was thinking, I don`t know.

HUTT: Why would he do that? That just puts into the minds of the jury, look, he did it! Why would he do that if he`s defending him, Mark?

BRYANT: If Nicholas Brooks has as little respect for women, as this attorney does, which we know that he does, they`re a match made in heaven.

SCHACHER: Dr. Drew, as attorneys, we`re taught from the get-go, you know, the probative value has to outweigh the prejudicial value and what I see is this completely backfired right from the start.

LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: Right! I know desperate times call for desperate measures. Mark is right, but you`ve got to watch what you do, because I don`t think that that even looked right.

BRYANT: Right.

LAKE: It almost looked like the crime happening again, right?

PINSKY: Yes, that`s right.

HUTT: It was bizarre.

PINSKY: That`s right. It`s bizarre. And I want to show people -- and it sounds extra super creepy and problematic. But I want to show you guys, please call up for me the picture of the bed that this kid torched before they went over to the Soho House.

We want to remind people how this situation got set up. He was lighting candles, lit the woman`s bed on fire. She was P.O.`d, took him to the Soho House where --

SCHACHER: Dr. Drew, this is where I`m confused, because today I learned that Sylvie was sleeping in the bed when he put the candles and lit them while she was asleep. She burned her hair.

PINSKY: Right.

SCHACHER: So, was he trying to kill her and burn down the apartment?

PINSKY: I think Jenny thinks so.

SCHACHER: Prior? Yes!


SCHACHER: I mean --

BRYANT: It`s unclear.




EIGLARSH: Can we address --

BRYANT: One thing we do know --

EIGLARSH: We`ve got to address a creepy and bizarre thing that to me is the elephant in the room. So, apparently, this 53-year-old gay guy is doing coke in a couple of different places with this defendant and the best line the defendant has is, hey, you heard "You Light Up My Life"? My dad - - that`s creepy.

BRYANT: Mark, I want to know --


EIGLARSH: Debbie Boone? Come on.

PINSKY: Guys --

HUTT: I got it.

PINSKY: Guys, I`ve got to stop you. You got --

BRYANT: Why in the world is --

PINSKY: We`ve got to move on, keep moving here. I was just thinking, there`s some bad joke there with "you light up my whatever" with he just lit up her bed.


SCHACHER: Ouch, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Too soon.

SCHACHER: Too soon.


PINSKY: We`ll update you on James Gandolfini`s passing later on the show. Up next, the behavior bureau will dissect the dysfunctional relationship between the accused killer and his alleged victim.

And coming up, we may have something about Jodi Arias and her court appearance. We`ll get an update on that and get into that tomorrow. That will be tomorrow and we`ll update you on that as well.



HUTT: If the guy that you`re dating is showing you pictures online of the prostitute that he`s also using, it`s time to break up with him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ye, I would agree with that. I agree.

PINSKY: But hold on. Jenny, hold on. Jenny, stop. Wait until he burns your bed down.

UNIDENTFIED FEMALE: For some reason, this relationship, as dysfunctional as it is to anybody else who`s looking, it worked for them. It worked for them.

PINSKY: Yes, that`s another --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, unfortunately, it led to her death.

PINSKY: That`s another behavior bureau. We`ll have to do that.


PINSKY: We`ll have to do it today, because it`s time for the behavior bureau. Back with co-host Samantha Schacher.

Joining the two of us, Jenny Hutt and clinical psychologist Cheryl Arutt, criminal investigator Danine Manette, author of "Ultimate Betrayal", and the human lie detector and author of "You Can`t Lie to Me," Janine Driver.

All right, Cheryl, I`m going to open this up with you. What is it about this relationship that did work? We know what didn`t work. Why would these two people even be together? Why would she be with him?

CHERYL ARUTT, PSYCHOLOGIST: Two words, Dr. Drew, hot sex. I have to say, I think that`s what it was.

And I think that there was chemistry. And again, I`ll say it again like I did the other night. If she were male and he were female, looking at a young, hot guy, you know, who was a young, hot woman who didn`t have her life together, with a more professional, accomplished, older, slightly older person who was successful, totally normal.

But we switch the genders and here you go. She`s with a guy who`s a kind of a himbo, he`s kind of a mess. He`s got notoriety in his family, but he`s dangerous, he`s a bad guy, like in the bad boy good kind of way. She was drawn to him and this was obviously a mistake.

PINSKY: I don`t know, don`t know.

ARUTT: She couldn`t clean things up.

SCHACHER: I`m so glad you brought up that double standard, Cheryl. I`m so glad.

PINSKY: Now, wait a minute, Jenny.

ARUTT: Thank you, Sam! Thank you, Sam.

PINSKY: Let me paint the story in a way -- hang on, guys. So, we have a young woman who is hot and sexy but --

ARUTT: What?

PINSKY: He`s a drug addict, a freeloader, rejected by her family, burned a guy`s bed down. I`m not so sure that every guy`s going to hang in with that, I don`t care how good the sex is, Jenny.

HUTT: Well, OK, but, and again, I`m not a psychologist, but I will say that I think it was totally the hot sex that sort of kept them going. However, I think what happened with the hot sex is how it made her feel. As women, we get this unbelievable connection to a guy when there`s that hot, crazy, emotional, driven, insane sexual chemistry. We just --

ARUTT: Yes, bonding.

HUTT: We just get attached and it makes us feel all these things. I think in some way more than it does to men. So, she almost was addicted maybe to that, Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Well, right, and women come to sexual compulsions via sort of a different route, a different biology, a different set of meanings and motivational priorities.

But, Janine, I want to switch gears and look at the hotel surveillance tape and you tell me what you see as Sylvie and a pillow-clutching Nicholas check in. There it is. He`s clutching that pillow. He`s got a wide stance. He`s shifting around.

Janine, what`s there?

JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: You know, that`s right. And it`s very interesting. This pillow, I brought my pillow - tonight here. I`ve got my pillow. It`s this protective barrier.

It`s almost like a version of crossing your arms, you know. I`m not Dr. Big knife, I`m miss pillow.

And I remember when I had an emergency c-section with my first son, my blood pressure was through the roof and the doctor said if your blood pressure`s through the roof tomorrow, you`re going to the hospital for a C- section. I went in the next morning. I brought pillows because I was so afraid. I wanted the smell of my house.

And literally, I walked into a hospital hours later with pillows in front of me. I`m smiling because I`m happy that I`m going to be a mother, but I was terrified inside. So, I think --

PINSKY: Janine, did you kill anybody?

DRIVER: I was terrified. I think that that`s, like, the thing that got me pacifying, like a little baby uses a pacifier to comfort himself. I think he brought his little pillow. And I have to say --

PINSKY: All right, let me show you, I get you. Let me show a little bit more of the surveillance tape from that night when Sylvie died. Let`s see. Look at this, Janine.

There we go. There he is at the elevator. I think this is where he does this thing where he sort of bends over like he`s going to throw up.


PINSKY: There he is, pacing in front of the elevators. Now he leans over, like oh, my goodness. What do you see?

DRIVER: This is called imploding. So when we implode, we want to become a smaller target. It`s we don`t want to be seen.

It kind of reminds me of "Far Side" cartoon where one bear points to the other bear and points to the guy with a scope, like go get him. It`s imploding, trying to disappear, almost going into the fetal position. It`s OK, I`ll get through this. It`s a massive panic, fight or flight.

HUTT: Wow.

PINSKY: Janine, we`re trying to figure out why this relationship worked. She`s angry with him because he burned down a $3,000 bed. Any sense of what might have motivated -- what`s your theory here, what motivated strangulation, if that`s, in fact, what happened?

DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: I think that he just had a temper tantrum. I think that she probably began disciplining him like a child, like the child that he was behaving as, as that it got out of control and she probably said something and he grabbed her neck and it became a strangulation issue.

But I see this all the time in my work, where these women take on these men just because they want to have a jock strap in the house or whatever, but that end up being dangerous to themselves and dangerous to their children and end up abusing them or abusing their children. It happens all the time.

HUTT: This is not what this is about, though.

PINSKY: Go ahead, Jenny.

HUTT: This was not because she wanted to have a guy around in the house. This was --

MANETTE: I think it is.

HUTT: This was a hot, sexual, crazy chemistry thing gone sour. This is a bad guy. By the way --

MANETTE: And, Dr. Drew --


PINSKY: Hang on, one at a time.

ARUTT: Jenny, she was trying to get out.

HUTT: I think you`re right and she was probably --

PINSKY: Hold on. Samantha, then Cheryl. Go ahead.

SCHACHER: I`m just going back to, what if this was premeditated? I mean, who lights candles? Because she burned her hair, too, while someone is sleeping on a headboard? I mean, what if this wasn`t an escalation of a fight? What if this was premeditated and he had planned to burn the apartment down?


PINSKY: We really don`t know why --

SCHACHER: We don`t, I`m speculating, but it just doesn`t make sense.

PINSKY: Janine, do you have something there?

DRIVER: My dad works at a fire department in Boston, Brookline, Massachusetts. And the number one cause of a house fire are candles lit unattended, often like a tapering candle. The number one reason there`s a fire unexpected is a candle that`s unattended. So, I done think it`s premeditated murder that you`re going to get --

SCHACHER: Right, but she was asleep and he put it on the headboard. It doesn`t make sense.

PINSKY: He`s a screwball. We know the guy doesn`t have good judgment.

Cheryl, go ahead.

ARUTT: Well, just, I don`t know that she was that into continuing this relationship. I think she was trying to get out. I think she was not happy with him, realized, oh, boy, I`m really bonding through good sex with this himbo kind of guy that really isn`t good for me, and when she started to --

PINSKY: Himbo?

ARUTT: -- nope, this isn`t salvaging. Himbo, it`s a bimbo who`s a him, a himbo.

PINSKY: Ah, thank you, Cheryl.

SCHACHER: I just learned something today.

PINSKY: I did, too, Samantha. Cheryl, thank you.

SCHACHER: Quickly, though -- do we even know they had that great of sex?

PINSKY: No, we don`t know that.

SCHACHER: She wrote in her to-do list that she wished he was more loving during sex.

PINSKY: That`s right. It might have been initially started that way but ended up not being --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They had a good chemistry.

PINSKY: Jenny, we`re just trying to make sense of this by throwing that in the mix.

HUTT: I can`t believe that you guys -- all of you are so smart and educated, and you`re questioning whether that great sex would keep her in this horrific environment? Possibly, it could.

SCHACHER: Then, why did she write notes in the to-do list? Why did she want to correct it?

She likes it. This is what she likes.

PINSKY: The thing we love about this show is that we learn about our contributors. Jenny, I`m learning a lot about you today. I`m just saying.

Secondly, we know what makes the psychologist and --

HUTT: listen, himbo sometimes have great sex, Dr. Drew!

PINSKY: They keep their own stuff contained while giving the opinions. Cheryl, barely, mind you, but she does kind of keep it inside her body boundaries most of the time.

But, Jenny, I`ve learned a great deal about you tonight. We`re never going to figure this out. It`s going to defend how this thing plays out and learn more as the trial goes along. We`ll watch it.

Reminder, by the way, we`ll have more on Mr. Gandolfini`s passing later in the show. Thank you, behavior bureau.

Later on, the wait is almost over for Jodi Arias to return to court for the first time since her conviction. We`ll be right back.



AXEL BARROCAS, CHILDHOOD FRIEND OF SYLVIE CACHAY: I think it`s a horrible tragedy. I knew Sylvie since she was 12 years old, and she had a very bright future in front of her. And it`s just a terrible end to such a bright career, so much potential. It was all building up and it was just cut short.


PINSKY: Back with the behavior bureau and co-host Samantha Schacher.

Sylvie Cachay was found dead in a bathtub at an exclusive Manhattan club. Her boyfriend, Nicholas Brooks, accused of having killed her. We have more surveillance video from the night Sylvie died.

Here`s her boyfriend at yet another elevator bank doing a lot of back-and- forth.

Janine, I understand you looked at this beforehand. Tell us what you saw.

DRIVER: I did. I`m brought back to the Robyn Gardner case. You might remember, you covered Robyn Gardner, the 35-year-old beautiful blond, went to Aruba with her male friend, Gary Giordano and never came back. Supposedly, they were snorkeling, behind a dumpster where nobody would snorkel in a million years.

When Gary Giordano comes back to the hotel, he does this same move, knocks on the door, paces down the hallway, comes back, knocks on the door again, almost in a frantic pace. In fight or flight, smart people do stupid things, and we see this same exact pacing going back and forth, indicative of a deceptive person, high stress, high excite here. I think there`s more --

PINSKY: Now, I`m going to go to Cheryl. Yes, we don`t know necessarily guilt. It`s not necessarily that he murdered somebody, it`s that he`s agitated and anxious, and it could be just, Cheryl, a terrible, terrible fight with his girlfriend. I mean, that`s a possibility, I guess.

But my question is, we did a lot of speculating about Jodi Arias, and we got it right once the site testing showed up. We don`t know this guy, but do you have any speculation about this guy`s, what we call character functioning?

ARUTT: Well, the thing is that my thought when Janine was explaining how frantic he was, and he was in fight or flight, like oh, my God, what am I going to do? I am inclined to think that it was because he didn`t know how to get -- he had no exit strategy after he killed her. That`s actually what I think probably happened. But when somebody is a real --

PINSKY: Let me interrupt you.

ARUTT: -- sociopath --

PINSKY: Hold on, I`m going to interrupt you --

ARUTT: Because I think it`s sociopathic --

PINSKY: But, Danine thought it was sort of a rage that went out of control, right, Danine?

MANETTE: Yes, I completely believe that.


MANETTE: I believe she was disciplining him and he attacked her.

PINSKY: How about, let`s go down jenny`s path for a second and say it was some weird sexual act --

HUTT: No, I didn`t think that. Wait, wait, no, no, no, no --

PINSKY: Hang on, I didn`t say you were into weird sex acts.

HUTT: No, no --

PINSKY: I said perhaps this was an asphyxiation thing --


PINSKY: Listen, Jenny, Jenny, hold on. You have made the case -- I`ve made fun of you for it, but I haven`t said it`s wrong, that perhaps they were into intensity in their sexual relationship --

HUTT: No, no, no, no, no! No, you misunderstood me. I said they had intense sexual chemistry, so she stayed, but I agree with Janine that he`s freaked out for whatever reason and murdered him. I believe he did have some sort of tantrum.

PINSKY: Samantha, I`m going to try you. Jenny, hold on a second. People --

ARUTT: Can I clear something up?

PINSKY: -- have that intense chemistry sometimes get into intensity over intimacy, and when they go down that intensity path, they can do things to make things more intense, particularly when there are drugs and alcohol involved, which we know there was in this guy`s case, allegedly. So, my question is, isn`t one possibility here that this was some sexual act, not just aggression, but something that went bad?

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I don`t think it`s a sexual act at all.

PINSKY: He was wasting. He didn`t know what he was doing.

SCHACHER: I don`t think it was a sexual act at all. In fact, you know, she wrote in her to-do list that she wasn`t really happy with the sex. She wrote that she wished he was more compassionate. It was less like the porn sex. It was less like that aggressive sex. So, I don`t think that was it at all.

PINSKY: But Cheryl, we heard that he -- some of his friends -- her friends were saying he was advocating something they specifically called porn sex. I`ve got to wonder, guy`s loaded, guy`s carried away, he kills her in some weird sex -- it`s still a murder.

SCHACHER: I But there was arguing too, remember? The witness heard them arguing.

JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: And Dr. Drew, Dr. Drew, she`s in a turtleneck and her underwear. That makes no sense.



DRIVER: Hello.

CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think the guy has a conscience. I don`t think this is a sociopathic, very premeditated kind of murder. I think he freaked out. And then, I think he thought, you know, I think he thought oh, my God, what do I do now? It`s a guilty conscience, not a predatory, OK, I`ve planned this out, cool as a cucumber. This is different, the opposite of the other.

PINSKY: Right.

SCHACHER: Dr. Drew and Cheryl, really quickly, what did you guys think about his behavior after the fact, by going out with this stranger, this jazz musician and drinking and doing drugs? How are you able to do that after you just commit a murder? How are you able to just --

PINSKY: I can`t get my head around it. Cheryl, again, non-sociopath, how do they do that?

ARUTT: Wait a second, that surprises me, but this surprises me, Dr. Drew, because of "celebrity rehab" and all that, that he went out to self- medicate. He went out to try to get rid of all these messy feelings and terror from what he`d just done.

PINSKY: No, i understand. I understand.

ARUTT: You know? Crazy.

PINSKY: But he was seemed to be building an alibi and it seemed to be a little more premeditated than that.


PINSKY: It`s really troubling. And by the way, my patients that, I think when they try to self-medicate, they`ll really go at it. I mean, this guy was sort of dabbling. A lot of it doesn`t really fit together in terms of typical situations that we might see with an addict anyway.

A reminder for everybody, thank you, bureau. If you have a question or comment for the "Behavior Bureau," tweet us @DRDREWHLN.

Next up, Zimmerman trial, is it about a killing or something else? Back after this.

And later, we will have more on the death today of actor, James Gandolfini. Very sad day. Right back.


VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: One question a lot of people have, and everyone wants to know your answer to this question, is George Zimmerman racist?


POLITAN: The answer to that question coming up top of the hour on "HLN After Dark" in my interview with Tracy Martin.

RYAN SMITH, HLN ANCHOR: And also, a bold question for our potential jurors, does Trayvon Martin share any blame? Our jury, whoever they may be, will render a verdict at the end of the show, but first, we`ve got to pick one.

POLITAN: Top of the hour.



CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVEBLACKCHICK.COM: I agree with Ms. Ali that, you know, parenting has gone by the wayside. And the fact is, when young, Black men have images from rappers in Hollywood or with chains hanging around their necks, hoodies, calling women you know whats and hos, wearing pants where we can see their boxers, that`s unacceptable if you`re Black, White, Chinese, purple or green. I don`t care if you`re a Martian.

Let me finish here. Nobody said anybody should die by the way they`re dressed or the color of their skin. And the last time I read about this case, it was dark at night, so how did George Zimmerman know what color skin Trayvon was?


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher. And before we get further into the George Zimmerman trial, we have a few more celebrity thoughts, tweets about James Gandolfini`s death. This is from Senator John McCain. "R.I.P. James Gandolfini, one of the nicest guys I`ve ever met."

And now from Patricia Arquette," James Gandolfini, R.I.P." And of course, we will update you later on in the show. By the way, we`re happy to take any calls and thoughts. You know, the "Sopranos" was a show that deeply moved people. So, if you have thoughts about this man`s passing, any effect he`s had on you, please call us, 855- 855-373-7395. That`s 855- DrDrew5 and we will get into it a little bit after we discuss the Zimmerman trial.

So, we have this continuing conversation about that case, the Zimmerman case this evening. I want to pick up where we left off last night. Mark Eiglarsh stays with us. Also joining us, Michael Skolnik, editor-in-chief of He`s on the board of the Trayvon Martin Foundation. Crystal Wright is back from, and Shahrazad Ali, author of "Are You Still A Slave?"

And Miss Ali, I got to tell you, I love your -- can you tell me what I should call the crowns?

SHAHRAZAD ALI, AUTHOR, "ARE YOU STILL A SLAVE?": Crown, that`s sufficient.

PINSKY: Crown is good. They are beautiful. I really love them.

WRIGHT: Yes, that`s good.

PINSKY: So, a reminder that jury selection is still under way. Opening statements may begin as early as Friday, and as said, I want to pick up where we left off yesterday. And again, Miss Ali, I`m going to start with you. You were suggesting, it seemed to me, that young people of any color, of any size, of any whatever, need to be accountable for how they present themselves. Is that correct?

ALI: Well, thank you for the compliment, first. And, I did say that we, as parents, need to teach them how to dress and to enforce that. Usually, in most homes of young people and teenagers, we purchase the clothes, we buy the food, and so, we have some determination about that.

However, just changing your outfit has not saved Black people in America. We have changed our voice, we have changed our hairstyle, we have changed the way we walk, the way we talk. We`ve changed a lot of things and it hasn`t saved us from getting killed.

PINSKY: And Michael, again, I want everyone to play good tonight. You were yelling at each other last night. Michael, I`m going to go to you now.

MICHAEL SKOLNIK, EDITOR, GLOBALGRIND.COM: I mean, I think to label Trayvon because he had a hoodie on -- he had a hoodie. Mark Zuckerberg wears hoodies every day. The man was not wearing clothes that was menacing. He just had a hoodie and a pair of jeans on.

He wasn`t wearing gold chains. He didn`t have gold teeth on. He wasn`t rapping out loud and saying rude names about women. He was just walking through the neighborhood with a hoodie, and it was raining outside.

PINSKY: And crystal, good to see you off the Skype tonight. Thank you for joining us.

WRIGHT: Yes. Thanks.

PINSKY: And crystal, let me throw some bait out for you, too, which is, there is -- I mean, psychologists that have studied show a consistent bias or prejudice, let`s call it, towards Black men by almost everybody including Black men. So, what`s that all about?

WRIGHT: Well, I first want to address something that Michael said. None of the panelists that you`ve had on the show have said, to my recollection, that Trayvon deserved to die because the way he was dressed. So, Michael needs to stop misrepresenting what we have said. We`re trying to have a discussion and air both sides.

But respect to what why people are afraid of Black men, well, 50 percent of all federal prisoners in this country are Black, and we only represent 13 percent of the population. Black men are getting killed at a higher rate than any other race 18 to 34 years old. Black men ages 18 to 34 years old are also being incarcerated at a higher rate than anybody else. The facts speak for themselves.


WRIGHT: We also have a breakdown of the Black family. Like Miss Ali said, the reason why a lot of this is occurring is because 73 percent of all Black babies in this country are born to unwed mothers.

PINSKY: Well, listen, it all sounds like a racist conversation, but Mark, I hope (ph) you standing by here. I want to talk, when we get back, I hear you guys saying what it isn`t. How about we define what racism is when we get back? And also --

ALI: Well, can I answer that?

PINSKY: Hang on. You can start your answer and then we`ll go to it after the break.


PINSKY: Go ahead, Miss Ali.

ALI: Well, we have to look at, like you say, what racism is. Racism is not a noun, it`s a verb. It is a person who has power and influence over another group where they can wield terror, withhold services or just give them drugs and guns and alcohol and let them self-destruct. Who does that sound like? What group is that? Us!

PINSKY: Well, it sounds like the tyranny and the majority.

Wright: Amen.

PINSKY: Hang on. I`ve got to go to break. And, a reminder again, tomorrow, Jodi will be back in the courtroom. We will be covering that. You`ll see -- she`ll see some of the jurors. We know we`ve been speaking to are going to appear in the court just to support or follow this through (ph). They`ll meet her face-to-face tomorrow, perhaps.

Also ahead, as I said, update on the death today of the actor who played Tony Soprano, James Gandolfini. Back after this.


PINSKY: Samantha, in just a minute, we`re going to have a report from New York from Nischelle Turner about the passing of James Gandolfini, So, as soon as we finish this conversation, we`ll be out to her. Guys, I was asking and pull up the panel here, I was asking about racism and what it is. Mark, I want to give you a chance. I know you didn`t talk in that last panel, so go ahead.

MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: Well, first of all, racism, in my opinion, is alive and well. We`ve come a long way, but I see it every day in the criminal justice arena. I see it in my own life. Anyone who says it`s not alive and well in today`s society is either naive or intellectually dishonest. But also, there`s a lot of judgment and fear in society. Judgment, the thief of serenity. But as it applies to Zimmerman, I`m not just yet, until I see the evidence, ready to call him out as a racist.

One investigator called him overzealous and a little bit of a hero complex, but not a racist. I`m just not sure. So, I`m going to listen to the evidence. To do anything other than that is pure speculation.

PINSKY: Michael?

SKOLNIK: Yes. No one would say that George Zimmerman`s a racist. I never called George Zimmerman a racist, but he profiled Trayvon Martin. He profiled him because of the hoodie and the color of his skin and he got out of the car with a gun. The conversation should not be about a hoodie, the conversation should be about what they had in their hands.

A man, a grown man with a gun versus unarmed teenager with a bag of Skittles and a can of iced tea.

EIGLARSH: Michael, did he do it because of the color of his skin or because he`s wearing a hoodie, or because he was a teenager?

SKOLNIK: He called the police because of the color of his skin. Absolutely called policed. He wouldn`t call the police on me with a hoodie on.

PINSKY: Crystal.


PINSKY: Crystal, go ahead.


WRIGHT: First of all, Martin is exactly right. All these accusations, you know? Michael already has George Zimmerman convicted of murder. I mean, that`s -- thank God you`re not on the jury, Michael. And as Mark said --

SKOLNIK: And Crystal, you`re backing him up. You`re backing him up.

WRIGHT: I don`t think I ever -- excuse me, I think it`s my turn to talk.

SKOLNIK: You`re backing him up for one reason --

WRIGHT: I`m tired of you telling me about it means to be Black, but I think if you had a hoodie on and it was dark at night, I`m sure, guess what, I`m going to call 911 and I`m going to say there`s a guy with a hoodie patrolling my neighborhood that doesn`t look like he should be here.

SKOLNIK: This is the stuff --


WRIGHT: I would not have taken matters into my own hands. That`s the problem.

PINSKY: Hang on.

WRIGHT: I don`t think -- you know? Yes.

PINSKY: Hang on. Miss Ali, finish up. I`ve got 20 seconds.

ALI: Well, I think we should first look at the fact that all of us are territorial. Everybody`s territorial about where they homestead. And if there`s a stranger in my community, I want to know who they are. If somebody comes visit my neighbor, I`m going to look at the car, I`m going to look at who they are, make sure, you know, I recognize them.

So, I think we need to be real about that. You know, if you`re sitting in your little white neighborhood and some Black come down the street with a hoodie on, what are you going to do, come down the driveway and say hey, what`s up?


WRIGHT: Well, then call the police. Call the police but don`t hunt them down.

PINSKY: Update on Gandolfini after this. Be right back.


PINSKY: I`m back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher, and Samantha, we`ve been reporting on breaking news. James Gandolfini, sadly, died today.

SCHACHER: So surreal (ph).

PINSKY: Yes. The actor who played Tony Soprano was 51 years of age. We are hearing it was a, quote, "possible heart attack," unquote. He was a husband, a father and a friend, described by some as a gentle giant of a man.

Joining us from New York is CNN entertainment correspondent, Nischelle Turner. Nischelle, what`s the update for us? What are you hearing? Again, do we know that it was a heart attack?

NISCHELLE TURNER, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: We don`t, Drew, and we are still trying to gather information, because of course, this news is just breaking. What we know, so far, is that James Gandolfini was traveling in Italy when he died suddenly, what could be from a heart attack. We do know that he was scheduled to appear this weekend at the Taormina Film Festival in Sicily.

We also know, like you said, that he was 51 years old, very young. Just speaking earlier to Dr. Sanjay Gupta, he said, "generally, when we see people start having heart attacks, they are in their 60s, but if they have some sort of history --

PINSKY: Nischelle?


PINSKY: Not to take issue with my friend, Dr. Gupta, but I practiced primary care for 20 years and you do see younger heart attacks, but you see it in people who are at risk, of hypertension, a family history --

TURNER: And that`s what I was about to say.

PINSKY: Or in my other life dealing with drug addicts and alcoholics, there are things that people can ingest to increase their risk of heart attack as well. But when we say sudden death, it doesn`t have to be sudden cardiac death. There could be something neurological deaths. There could be catastrophes, bleeding in the brain, massive strokes. Very, very unlikely in somebody like him, unless, he had a lot of high blood pressure, and again, was a smoker.

Could be an aneurysmal bleed, but again, we would be hearing that sort of thing. So, when you hear sudden death, you think sudden cardiac death is a clot forming in the coronary artery to the heart that kills the muscle of the heart, causes a rhythm disturbance. Did he have any risk factors for this that we`re aware of?

TURNER: Well, that`s what Dr. Gupta went on to say, like, if you have a risk factor, then you could be more prone to something like this happening. We do know, Dr. Drew, that James Gandolfini was a big man. He was a large man. He was very --

PINSKY: That`s, interestingly, unless, it causes high blood pressure, that`s not so much -- it`s not good for you, obviously, but it`s not specifically, unless, he was diabetic or hypertensive, then it becomes a real risk factor. Do we know this?

TURNER: We don`t know that. But also back in 2002, you alluded to maybe some other factors that could lead to something like this.


TURNER: He did admit to once having a problem with cocaine and alcohol.


TURNER: He did attend rehab for that. So, that is also something that he did have in his past. All of these things, like you were mentioning. And we don`t know this for a fact, but these are things that he has admitted about his past that we do know.

PINSKY: So, cocaine definitely can cause, even people without heart disease can get terrible heart attacks, terrible rhythm disturbances, even after small levels of exposure. That`s why it`s such a dangerous drug. If anybody out there has this problem, please deal with it. We don`t know that that`s what happened here, but it`s a reminder of how dangerous these things can be.

Nischelle, I really appreciate you giving an update. I know this is breaking news and there`s a lot coming across your desk. Excellent job. Thank you so, so much.

TURNER: Absolutely.

PINSKY: If you get anything else in the next few minutes, let us know.

TURNER: Will do.

PINSKY: We`re going to have more on this breaking news and I`m going to try to take your calls after this.


PINSKY: It is the "Last Call," and we are talking about James Gandolfini who passed away, sadly, today. He`s the actor, of course, who played Tony Soprano, and he was 51 years old. We are hearing possibly this was a heart attack or a myocardial infarction. I want to go out to some calls, Samantha. Claudia in California. Claudia, what do you got? I`m not hearing Claudia. How about Jan? Jan, are you there?

JAN, TEXAS: Yes, I am, sir. From Dallas, and --

PINSKY: What would you like to say? Go right ahead.

JAN: I`m just so sad about hearing of his death and my heart and prayers just go out to the family. He was a wonderful actor. I loved him and I`m sorry to hear about it.

PINSKY: Hey, Jan, how did it affect -- how did his performances affect your life? I think he enriched all of us. How about you?

JAN: Oh, absolutely. And in fact, this might be terrible to say, but I was hoping that "The Sopranos" would come back on, because the role that he played was so fantastic. I just loved it. All my family. We watched all of it.

PINSKY: Yes. It`s like -- the Beatles passing or something. It`s like we want to get the old band back together, but now, that`s sadly not really possible. Thank you, Jan.

JAN: Yes, exactly.

PINSKY: Sam, it stopped (ph).

SCHACHER: I was such a fan of the show. This is so surreal. I can`t even process the fact that this has happened.

PINSKY: Right. We, of course, extend our condolences to the family and friend of James -- friends of actor, James Gandolfini. Thank you, Samantha.

Tomorrow night, we have George Zimmerman`s brother here with us. I`ll be interviewing him. Thank you for watching, of course, and our participants, thank you, as well. "HLN After Dark" begins immediately following us, right now.