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PIERS MORGAN LIVE

The Latest on James Gandolfini's Death; All-Female Jury for Zimmerman; The Amanda Knox Case; Interview with Steve Wozniak; Breaking the News; Remembering James Gandolfini

Aired June 20, 2013 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: This is Piers Morgan Live. Welcome to our viewers in the United states and around the world.

Tonight: Law and Disorder -- why women may hold the key to the George Zimmerman trial.

Also Amanda Knox caught on camera with her ex. What does that mean?

Plus "Breaking the News," the stories behind the headlines. If the economy is getting so much better, why did Wall Street just have the worst day of its entire year?

And the Woz. Exclusive, the man who co-founded Apple with Steve Jobs. He's arrived for our interview tonight on a Segway. A machine that nearly killed me once. I'm sure we'll get around to talking about why. I want him to talk about what he thinks about the new upcoming Jobs movie.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH GAD, ACTOR, "JOBS": Nobody wants to buy a computer. Nobody.

ASHTON KUTCHER, ACTOR, "JOBS": How did somebody know what they want if they've never even seen it?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: Also, why is his government snooping? He's taking us back to the days of the Cold War Soviet Union. Steve Wozniak is in "The Chair."

I want to begin, though, with the latest on the sudden death of James Gandolfini yesterday. We're learning more tonight about the moments after his family found him in his hotel room last night.

Dan Rivers is live for us in Rome with more.

Dan, what is the latest?

DAN RIVERS, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we've been piecing together the tragic final minutes of James Gandolfini's life. We know that he arrived at the hospital at 10:40 p.m. having been rushed in, found collapsed in his hotel room in a five-star hotel here in central Rome. We know he was traveling with his 13-year-old son. There are some reports suggesting it was the son that found him collapsed in the room alerted hotel staff.

We haven't confirmed who found him, but certainly very quickly the ambulance services arrived. They tried to perform CPR on him. Continued that resuscitation attempt as they drove towards the hospital. He was dead on arrival we're told. They continued to try resuscitation for some time until he was pronounced dead finally and transferred to the morgue.

So an awful, awful situation for his young son here, thousands of miles from home and all his friends and family, of course, reeling from the shock of his sudden death.

MORGAN: And Dan, obviously James Gandolfini was hugely famous in America, probably less so in Italy, even "The Sopranos" I believe did air there. What has been the reaction in Rome and Italy why -- to his death?

RIVERS: Yes, I mean, I think it's best to say he was not the kind of blockbuster star that he was in the States here in Italy. He did have, though, a following. You know, he appeared in films like "Zero Dark Thirty" and so on, so people and film aficionados did know him, people that watch "The Sopranos," not something that perhaps quite as well watched as it was in the U.S.

But he was due actually to speak and receive an award at a film festival down in Sicily and that film festival will go ahead, we're told, but will be basically dedicated to his memory. They put out a statement saying how profoundly sorry they are and like everyone, really, just incredibly shocked that he's gone in such an awful and sudden way and that the TV and film world has lost such a -- such a massive figure in terms of his work, which stretched not only into film but also documentaries. He did a lot of documentary work with veterans at the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

MORGAN: Yes. It really is a shocking and really sad story to lose a man of that great talent so early, just 51. It's a really, really sad, sad thing.

Dan Rivers, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

Later on the show, we'll go to what really went on behind the scenes of "The Sopranos." I'll talk to the author of the night Tony Soprano disappeared. A fascinating "GQ" article about life behind the scenes on that hit show.

I want to turn, though, now to surprising developments in the Trayvon Martin case. The jury that will decide George Zimmerman's fate was selected today and it's all female. Five white women and just one who is Hispanic and black.

Opening arguments are set for Monday. And today George Zimmerman's attorney, Mark O'Mara said that the jury selection was at least as important as the evidence in the case. That's on the docket for tonight's "Law & Disorder."

And joining me, a jury consultant, Jo-Ellan Dimitrius, CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin and civil rights attorney, Gloria Allred.

Welcome to you. What a stellar panel it is tonight. I must say.

Let me start with you, Gloria, as you have the great dishonor of being next to me. What do we make of this? This seems -- I've heard both interpretations. It's great for the defense, could also be great for the prosecution. What do you think?

GLORIA ALLRED, CIVIL RIGHT ATTORNEY: Well, that's the jury that was chosen, and I do think that that's where the decision is going to be made. Obviously, it's all in jury selection. But I think that other things are going to be more important than gender. I think, for example, attitudes about law and order. Usually if the prosecution that wants more law and order oriented juror but here I think the defense wants that.

In addition in terms of the selection of the jury, I think the prosecution probably wanted more African-Americans, rather than mainly a white jury, but they have the jury that they have. So I think that these issues are all going to be on the table, and gun issues are going to be on the table, and that's how the case is going to be decided.

MORGAN: Jeffrey Toobin, fascinating breakdown of the six jurors. One is married with eight kids, attends church, works at a nursing home with Alzheimer patients. One is married 30 years, two kids, has watched coverage of the case, has called police about kids vandalizing signs. Family members owned firearms. Another one married, 20 years, two kids, used to carry a concealed weapons permit. One that has no kids at all but supervises 1200 employees. One is married with two kids, husband has a handgun, son has a rifle. And the last one is married with a son and served as safety officer for 25 years.

So almost all -- apart from the one that has no children would have something in their lives that you could say would be particularly relevant to this case.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: You can. You know, it's very hard to predict how women will look at this case because, you know, as you said earlier, you can see both sides. Also it's very important not to engage in too much stereotypical thinking about how women or how men or how African-Americans feel about an issue. Let me just give you an example.

You know, in sexual assault cases, you might think that women would be more sympathetic to victims and good prosecution jurors. Women historically have been very tough on women victims, especially in cases where consent is an issue. So, you know, women can be very tough on other women.

African-Americans can be tough on other African-Americans. Here, I don't think there is a clear sense, at least not one I'm aware of, of how women generically feel about the case and it sounds like a pretty fair jury to me.

MORGAN: OK, Jo-Ellan Dimitrius, I don't think the crucial thing will be the fact they're all women. Unusual, though, that it is. I think it's the fact that five of the six women are mothers. You know, if I'm playing the prosecution hand here, I would be playing up to that fact very strongly. I'd be saying this is a 17-year-old boy who'd gone to see his father, who was carrying a bag of Skittles, and now he's dead, shot dead. You're a mother, you're all mothers apart from one.

You know, to me that's where I will be playing it and in that sense, although people are saying that it looks advantageous to the Zimmerman team, I'm not so sure.

JO-ELLAN DIMITRIUS, JURY CONSULTANT: Well, you know, I would certainly agree with my old friend Jeffrey in that I think that this is a very fair panel based upon all of the life experiences and the background of the six of the jurors that ultimately have been chosen. What is so fascinating to me is that you do have a woman on this panel who used to have a CCW, a concealed weapons permit, as does her husband, but she let it lapse which to me indicates that maybe she got involved in it because her husband wanted her to get involved but she didn't want to carry around a gun.

I mean, we know there's going to be issues about guns, about self- defense and I think that from the perspective of what both sides are looking for, the defense could have been looking at women in such a way that they probably, and the research that they did before this case, evaluated the fact that women don't normally get into physical altercations and fights.

I mean, we get into verbal altercations but not physical, and as such, women would be better because they are not relying on their own personal experience. They will listen more to the experts that are going to brought out in this case.

ALLRED: Yes, Piers, but also, let's keep in mind that among the alternates there are two men and there is always the possibility that one of -- or more of the men will become jurors if something happens to one of the current jurors.

MORGAN: Right.

ALLRED: Also, this is a self-defense case, and that's really important, and that may be something that appeals very strongly to women jurors.

MORGAN: Let's move onto the other big legal case the last 24 hours. The Amanda Knox case. It took a fascinating twist where Amanda Knox and her ex-boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, have both been ordered back to Italian court having had the appeal, which released them overturned again.

Jeffrey Toobin, what is going on here? Because it seems that they're relying, the judge is, who called them back, on a theory that the original reason for what happened was a sex game gone wrong?

TOOBIN: They are but just to cut to the chase here, if I am Amanda Knox, I am going to go exactly nowhere. I'm going to say on the West Coast of the United States. I'm not going back to Italy. I'm not fighting this case. You know, yes, down the line, if this goes to a conviction that is upheld on appeal, theoretically they could extradite her later. Extradition is a rare and difficult process.

If I were her, I would just keep the heck out of this all together and get on with my life inside the United States and only inside the United States.

MORGAN: We've got some pictures from the "Daily Mirror" newspaper in England which had quite remarkable pictures actually. This is of Amanda Knox with Raffaele Sollecito taken in New York, we believe either yesterday or the day before -- I think the day before.

And, Gloria, I was a bit struck by the fact that they're clearly very, very lovey-dovey in one those images, suggesting perhaps they're even back together, but regardless of that from a legal point of view, how sensible is it that they are seen like this together when they've just been ordered back to court?

ALLRED: Well, I don't know if they knew that a photo was being taken.

MORGAN: Right. I don't think they knew.

ALLRED: But I know she's made clear in her interviews that she has a boyfriend now, a different boyfriend than the one she had in Italy, and they have suffered together. They have suffered in Italian prison together and they've gone through quite a bit. So I'm not surprised that she embraced him and I'm not sure that we should read anything more into that embrace except that they're going to suffer more together.

MORGAN: If -- as Jeffrey Toobin says, if they take his advice and just stay here and don't go to Italy, what happens to this case?

ALLRED: I think she's made it clear that she's not going to voluntarily go back to Italy and who among us can blame her for that?

MORGAN: Is there any part of the legal process that can force her to go back?

ALLRED: Well, again, if they to extradite her perhaps but I had a case in Italy a number of years ago and frankly I don't have a whole lot of confidence in the Italian legal process.

MORGAN: Well, they can't decide what they think of these two. I mean, it does drag it out again not just for them but also for Meredith Kercher's family of course back in Britain, who still, you know, I know they're in deep grief and mourning. I know her father and it's another unnecessary elongation, I guess, of the torment they've been through.

But, anyway, we shall see what happens. My guess is that Jeffrey Toobin's sense is right and they will be going precisely nowhere.

Jeffrey Toobin, Jo-Ellan Dimitrius, and Gloria Allred, thank you-all very much, indeed. DIMITRIUS: Thanks.

MORGAN: When we come back from a Segway straight to my studio. The Woz is in "The Chair." He created Apple with the late great Steve Jobs, now Steve Wozniak tells me what he thinks of the new Jobs movie starring Ashton Kutcher.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KUTCHER: How can you not tell me about this before?

GAD: I don't know. I was just working on it for my own. This is a hobby.

KUTCHER: Exactly. Exactly. For your own. For you. It's what you wanted. It's with your gut and your instinct want if you're big a ball brain weren't sulking and didn't exist so you just wielded into existence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KUTCHER: This is freedom. This is freedom to create and to do and to build and -- as artist, as individuals.

GAD: But look, you're overreacting, even if you were developing this for freaks like us and I doubt you are, nobody wants to buy a computer. Nobody.

KUTCHER: How did somebody know what they want if they've never even seen it?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: The founders of Apple allegedly before they changed the world. That's from the upcoming bio-pic "Jobs" starring Ashton Kutcher as Steve Jobs and Josh Gad as Steve Wozniak. And the real Woz joins me now exclusively in "The Chair."

So, what do you think of the -- never mind the movie, what do you think of the guy that's playing you?

STEVE WOZNIAK, TECH GIANT: You know what? I want to see the movie. I can't judge from one clip. I know it didn't play the scene like the way the talk went but --

MORGAN: Well, yes. Let's about that scene. This scene apparently has you doubting that anyone is ever going to want to buy a computer. Was that true?

WOZNIAK: No, it was absolutely the opposite. It was more like myself convincing Steve Jobs that these great social revolutions were going to be made possible by this device. He didn't even suggest we start a computer company back then.

MORGAN: So you were the guy that though the computer was going to make and Steve Jobs is the guy who didn't think they'd make it.

WOZNIAK: Well, I was inspired by others, actual intellectuals from Stanford and Berkeley, that spoke at Our Home for Computer Club, which Steve did not attend. It's while he was in Oregon. And I told him what these were going to do to people for people and then I had this great design that I had already given away so when we start the company I had given it away and Steve said let's start a company to make one part.

MORGAN: I mean, this movie, this got that one fact completely wrong, are you confident about the rest of it or not?

(LAUGHTER)

WOZNIAK: I have an open mind. No, I hope I will enjoy it just like I enjoyed "Pirates of the Silicon Valley" very much. Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

MORGAN: There are two things that you come -- well, let's start. You came on a Segway. I want to make a confession to you. I went on a Segway for five minutes here in Los Angeles on Santa Monica promenade. I fell off. I clean fractured five ribs and semi-collapsed a lung. In other words, it nearly killed me.

WOZNIAK: Let me tell you, I found out while I was on the promenade once that they are not allowed on the promenade, anything with motors, stand wheels, so I got off of mine and just pushed it aside.

MORGAN: Extremely wise. And in fact I think the creator of the Segway died either last year or the year before falling off a cliff whilst on his Segway.

WOZNIAK: Not the creator, the guy who had bought the company from the creator, his people, did fall off a cliff. They don't know exactly how and you know what, on a Segway, yes, you can hit a bump, you can hit a hole in the ground, just like a bike you can topple. So even though there is no element law in California, I always wear a helmet. I'm worried about that.

MORGAN: You are never --

(CROSSTALK)

WOZNIAK: But I don't fall. Really you don't fall.

MORGAN: No, you do fall.

WOZNIAK: You balance.

MORGAN: I fell and nearly killed myself.

WOZNIAK: You probably didn't turn it on like George Bush but -- (LAUGHTER)

WOZNIAK: If you were -- yes.

MORGAN: No, I was going 12 miles an hour. The damn thing nearly killed me. Let's move -- let's move on to two things that you've got which I do want.

WOZNIAK: Let's.

MORGAN: One is your extraordinary watch. Just show this. Now what does this do?

WOZNIAK: Well, this watch, I saw it a long time ago on somebody's hand at a computer show and explained to me, when you see it -- when I turned my wrist, hours, minutes. Nice big --

MORGAN: That is fantastic.

WOZNIAK: It's so different than any other watch --

MORGAN: What are those?

WOZNIAK: These are old vacuum tubes called mixing tubes running on high voltage, 140 volts inside and even though it's waterproof I wouldn't take it in the bath and expect to live. But --

(LAUGHTER)

WOZNIAK: The reason I wear it is not because it's unusual. That's the reason I put it on at first. To show friends. But I would have gone back to a normal watch. My brain is working less hard to read these nice, big global digits.

MORGAN: Yes. It's great.

WOZNIAK: My brain is -- I can feel that I'm not thinking as deeply hard and that's what technology is supposed to do for us.

MORGAN: You already have the biggest brain in America. We know that.

WOZNIAK: Yes, I know.

MORGAN: This is what I love the most. Explain what this is.

WOZNIAK: These are pads that all right made by a printer in my hometown of Los Dados, California.

MORGAN: Let's just hold that up. That is a pad of two dollar bills.

WOZNIAK: Yes, and of course, you can tear them off just like green stamps because they are nicely perforated for convenience.

MORGAN: Is that legal tender?

WOZNIAK: It's -- well, let me tell you, a lot of things about it are kind of fishy and hold it on the corners so you don't get the ink on your hands. But the Secret Service has approved them three times. Two other times the Secret Service they saw them. Once they read me my Miranda rights and I gave them a fake ID that said I was laser safety officer with an iPad and the picture and the Secret Service bought that. That was probably the crime.

(LAUGHTER)

MORGAN: You are completely (INAUDIBLE) --

WOZNIAK: But they -- it turns out that these bills actually meet the specs of the U.S. government so by law they are legal tender.

MORGAN: And they come in pads all of eight, right?

WOZNIAK: Well --

MORGAN: You got eight there. What would you sell the eight for that's worked before?

WOZNIAK: All over the world I've sold them for $5 a sheet. Every sheet of four --

MORGAN: So you would -- you would sell me $8 worth for $5?

WOZNIAK: Yes, four of these bills for $5.

MORGAN: Why would I not just buy this entire pad now and make an immediate 100 bucks?

WOZNIAK: Because there's so many other people around, I want to spread the joy.

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: So you want to --

WOZNIAK: I want to sell -- I'd sell you one. I'd sell you one.

(LAUGHTER)

MORGAN: Let's talk about the Edward Snowden whistleblowing story, the NSA thing. Are you -- are you a fan of somebody like Edward Snowden?

WOZNIAK: Yes, I'm not going -- you know, there are some people that takes sides in the world and I'm always against anything government, you know, any three-letter agency or I'm always for them because I'm on the opposite side, and I'm not like that. I try to say what is really happening here, and I felt -- about Edward Snowden the same way I felt about Daniel Ellsberg, who changed my life and talk --

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: I interviewed him a couple of days ago. He's --

WOZNIAK: And it's just -- you know what, you read the facts. We -- it's a government of, by and for the people. That sort of means we on the government. We're on the ones that pay for it and then we discover something that our money is being used for that just can't be that level of crime.

MORGAN: But if geniuses like you hadn't created so many computers, they wouldn't be snooping around our affairs.

WOZNIAK: You know, I actually feel a little guilty about that.

(LAUGHTER)

But not totally. Because we created the computers to free the people up, to give them instant communication anywhere in the world, any thought you had, you could share freely. That it was going to overcome a lot of the government restrictions. We didn't realize it in the digital world there were a lot of ways to use the digital technology to control us, to snoop on us, to make things possible that weren't.

In the old days of mailing letters, you lick it, and when you got an envelope that was still sealed, nobody had seen it.

MORGAN: Right.

WOZNIAK: You could have private communication. Now let's say because it's e-mail it cannot be private, anyone can listen.

MORGAN: Given the speed with which technology is advancing all the time, smart phones, computers, laptops, and so on, where are we going to be in 10 years' time?

WOZNIAK: The computer is going to get smarter and smarter, and more like humans. Right now we're speaking commands to them. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It's very frustrating when we speak the command that a human would understand and your phone gets the words right but it still doesn't know that you mean. That's going to get better and better over the next 10 years.

MORGAN: Let's play a --

WOZNIAK: And I think we're going to have wearable technology that's very much more -- even smaller and more convenient that the phones we carry in our hand now.

MORGAN: We found this great clip of Steve Jobs in 1994. I want to play this to you. This is on a similar theme actually.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE JOBS, CO-FOUNDER OF APPLE: All the work that I have done in my life will be obsolete by the time I'm, you know, 50. This is not a field where one paints a painting and it will be looked at for centuries or builds a church that will be admired and, you know, looked at in astonishment for centuries.

No, this is a field where one does one's work and in 10 years it's obsolete. And really will not be usable within 10 or 20 years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: I thought that was fascinating, so accurate because he's so right. I mean the stuff we're using now in 10 years' time, nobody will use it.

WOZNIAK: But that videos, old videos are in formats that you have to dig out.

MORGAN: Right.

WOZNIAK: Or there are machines just to play them. So we are losing a lot of history that way. Fast change of technology.

MORGAN: I never met Steve Jobs but I really miss him as a presence in the world. You must, I mean, known him so well, miss him 100 times more.

WOZNIAK: I miss him much more horribly. The last time I was on your show, he was very ill --

MORGAN: Right.

WOZNIAK: Just before his death and yes, it's very difficult. The world lost a lot and you don't necessarily recreate it but it could always come up eventually now and then with people in the future.

MORGAN: What do you think of Apple? Because they are coming under a lot of threat now from other companies. I watched their recent sort of have been a public performance and I thought, you know what, this is where they really miss Steve Jobs because he was such a great showman and marketer. I thought he would said, we haven't got enough pizzazz or excitement here. You know, his annual address to the world was this great, big thing. This time it was a bit of a damp squid.

WOZNIAK: Well, there's ideas of innovation where you make things better than they were and nicer to use or something. Then there's invention. With invention you create a totally different way of doing things. So people who didn't expect that this was going to be an affordable technology yet, and Apple had a lot of history of that under Steve Jobs in recent times, but those products are rare.

Where does the next idea come from that can totally (INAUDIBLE) the world in a new direction? They don't come up that often. So sometimes you get to a plateau and you have to wait and wait and wait, especially if you're trying to make the product so perfect that every single human being on earth would want it, and that's what Apple does. So you might have to wait longer.

MORGAN: Now, I never thought I'd ask you this question, Steve Wozniak. But what did Kim and Kanye's baby look like? And the reason I'm asking you that is because you're one of the few people alive who has met the world's most famous baby. Explain yourself.

WOZNIAK: You know what? I've seen a lot of babies and a baby represents the love between the people and that meant more to me and the love that Kim was showing to Kanye, just because he was interested in technology and companies, she -- as a birthday present she had me up there to meet him.

MORGAN: Unbelievable.

WOZNIAK: Unbelievable that a woman would do that. I mean, I just think she's doing everything she can to show her love to her man.

MORGAN: Sweet little baby?

WOZNIAK: As far as you can tell.

(LAUGHTER)

MORGAN: Do you know the baby's name?

WOZNIAK: I do not know the baby's name. I don't know --

MORGAN: They didn't slip up and introduce --

WOZNIAK: I believe that the world knows the baby's name when it gets officially selected on documents, legal documents.

MORGAN: Has that not happened yet? I'm just trying to grill you here.

WOZNIAK: I know.

MORGAN: Because I find it so amusing that you're the guy that may know the answer.

WOZNIAK: I actually did put in a comment that the mother of my children, her and five other siblings, each was sort of born without a name, and the family waited until a name was suggested by some little accident. And I like that creative thought, that creative approach. So who knows what they'll do.

(LAUGHTER)

MORGAN: Steve Wozniak --

WOZNIAK: I just wish -- I wish there wasn't that much attention because the paparazzi is just a, you know, horrible factor in some people's lives.

MORGAN: Well, it is.

WOZNIAK: Especially Kanye's.

MORGAN: But the trouble is for someone like Kim, who -- I really like Kim Kardashian but I don't think you can bleed about the paparazzi when you sell every aspect of your private life to magazines for millions of dollars.

WOZNIAK: Sure. I'm talking about Kanye. MORGAN: Well, yes, but he's married Kim.

WOZNIAK: Yes, but the paparazzi --

MORGAN: They're not married, are they?

(CROSSTALK)

WOZNIAK: They --

MORGAN: They were married?

WOZNIAK: No, they're not married. But --

MORGAN: They probably will get married.

WOZNIAK: No. It's a -- really a shame of what they do when they want to take somebody and attack them. They have their ways. And then when it looks like this is the time to boost them up, there have the ways to --

MORGAN: But don't you think, Steve, if you dance with the devil you get pricked by the horns? I mean, I can't -- I do like the Kardashians. I think what they do is great. They work hard, but trying to sort of fight a privacy debate on their behalf seems to me a little beyond the pale.

WOZNIAK: Some privacy.

MORGAN: Maybe.

WOZNIAK: Maybe.

MORGAN: A tad.

WOZNIAK: A tad. That's -- yes.

(LAUGHTER)

MORGAN: Steve, I could talk to you all night. Seriously. Will you come back soon and do a longer interview?

WOZNIAK: I sure would.

MORGAN: Every time you leave, it's just like -- like eating a doughnut. I want another one.

WOZNIAK: You know, you mentioned Steve Jobs. You didn't talk about the time the FBI came into Apple and told us who to watch for, that the Chinese and the Japanese -- I forgot which it was -- was coming in and you got to watch them carefully, they're trying to steal our secrets, and Steve said, we do the same thing, spying, right? And the FBI said no, we don't.

MORGAN: Really? WOZNIAK: You know what? And I knew what Steve was saying. And I don't know -- the other people in the room might have acted like they believed the FBI, but you know, why do we get -- why can't we get some truth? To me the truth is the apex of all good. You know? I'd like to know. I'd like to know a lot of times the truth, and there is closeness and openness. Openness is share a lot of the truth and I'm pretty much far out on the open side.

I don't want to ever say that I'm absolute, 100 percent, one way or another. I want to find the dividing line. Like when you talk about the NSA and Richard Snowden. What --

MORGAN: Edward Snowden.

WOZNIAK: What I had to do is I'm not going to just take a side. I'm against the NSA because it's government, three-letter agency, they lie and they hold things secret, but, you know, and there is a reason for them and it's a good reason. They belong in here but we had them in our society when I was a young kid and I was taught the Bill of Rights and I was taught the ways that accusers had to make accusation stick and the fact that you had to get court orders.

You can get a court order when you have reasonable evidence. When you only have one person that you don't know if he's lying or not you're going to get these WMD stories, you know, and track down every little bad angle.

MORGAN: So you're a fascinating guy, Steve. Will you come back soon?

WOZNIAK: Yes, any time, Piers.

MORGAN: You took too long last time. I got -- I love talking to you. I've got to leave it there. I wish I didn't have to. But we've got a lot of other guests to come up. I want you to come back soon and do a longer interview.

WOZNIAK: I would love to.

MORGAN: Great to see you. And bring some more gadgets and bring particularly more of your money.

WOZNIAK: OK. Lots more ahead.

MORGAN: I'm going to be buying as much as you can print.

(LAUGHTER)

Steve Wozniak, what an extraordinary character.

Coming next, Wall Street's worst day of the year. What does it mean for you and the economy, which we're keep being told is doing really well again. We're breaking the news, that's coming up.

And here's me almost breaking my neck on that Segway.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get back, get back, get back, get backwards. Get back, get back, get backwards. Get backwards. Get back, step back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MORGAN: Shockwaves on Wall Street as the market takes its biggest plunge of the year so far. If the economy is getting better, what is behind this?

"Breaking the News" is Kai Ryssdal, the host and senior editor of American Public Media's "Marketplace," also HuffPost Live host Abby Huntsman and Marc Lamont Hill.

Welcome to you all. And for any viewers who's just flicking around at the moment, it's 15-10 to Spurs in the big game seven so actually no need to watch yet. Leave it about half an hour and then tune in. It will get really exciting. And just stay with me until then.

Now let's -- Kai Ryssdal, explain to me what the hell is going on here. I keep reading the economy is getting stronger, the housing market is getting stronger. Everything is getting stronger. Then suddenly Ben Bernanke opens his mouth and Wall Street collapses.

KAI RYSSDAL, HOST, APM'S MARKETPLACE: Yes, but what did he say? He said the economy is getting better. The downside --

MORGAN: So why has Wall Street gone into complete panic mode?

RYSSDAL: Because Wall Street like to -- they have this thing where you sell a news and you buy on the fear. It's just, they like to go out there and make a big stink whenever anything happens. And here's what happened yesterday. Bernanke said the economy is getting better so here's what we're going to do. We will eventually stop buying all these bonds. We'll stop plowing money into this economy.

And everybody said whoa, wait, hold on. We've been used to this for five years now. The Fed has been propping up the economy. And now you're telling us you're going to take it away? And people went bananas.

MORGAN: Interest rates are going to go up, aren't they? I would think in the near future.

RYSSDAL: They are. They've already started, the 10-year T note is 2.4 percent today which is really high compared to where it's been recently. Historically low but high where it's been recently.

MORGAN: Is there -- is there any sensible rationale for what Wall Street did today?

RYSSDAL: No, I --

MORGAN: Or is it simply taking a bit of money because they are greedy pigs? RYSSDAL: There's -- well, all right, your phrase. There is never any sense to what Wall Street does, never. And I've said that before on this program. Right?

MORGAN: Abby Huntsman, have you got anything to say about the global economy?

ABBY HUNTSMAN: Absolutely. I'm an expert on anything finance.

(LAUGHTER)

ABBY HUNTSMAN, HOST, HUFFPOST LIVE: No, no, I mean, the stock market goes up and down every day oftentimes based on the news of the day. So, you know, I take it for what it is. But I think ultimately to bring it back down to every indication right now shows that we are moving in the right direction. You look at the housing market, you look at -- you know, the confidence in consumers, I mean, those are all positive signs.

MARC LAMONT HILL, HOST, HUFFPOST LIVE: This is why I love Abby Huntsman because she is a Republican who will admit that the economy is actually going in the right direction under Obama's watch. I think that the global economy is moving in the right direction. I think, though, one piece of news that might become problematic obviously is the -- or at least the rumor that Bernanke might be stepping down.

For some that's good news, obviously, because people feel as if he might be ultimately leading to a devaluing of the dollar because some of the quantitative moves that he's making. But I think it's ultimately a bad move. I think ultimately that may destabilize, at least in the short term more than anything else.

(CROSSTALK)

HUNTSMAN: That is, Piers, I think --

MORGAN: Now I think he's --

HUNTSMAN: I think you also have to talk about the unemployment. That's -- I think that's the most important part of the whole economic conversation. I mean, unemployment is still at a dismal 7.6 percent and that's just people that are looking for jobs. We're talking about probably over 20 million people that need full time work.

MORGAN: Well, we're going to get some more jobs reports tomorrow, I think, and it will be interesting. I mean, you're right, I mean, it's still very, very high, isn't it, Kai? I mean, unacceptably high.

RYSSDAL: It is -- it is absolutely high. And that's exactly what Bernanke said. I got to challenge Marc for a second, though. Has not -- what Bernanke does has nothing to do with the dollar. Whether he stays or goes it just doesn't matter. Janet Yellin is probably going to get this job. If she doesn't get the job, somebody else who knows exactly what Bernanke has been thinking for the past five years is going to get this job. And there won't be a whole lot of change. It's a great chance for Obama to put a Democrat in there for the first time since 1981 if he wants to do that. But if he doesn't, you know, it's -- there's nothing that the Fed chairman is going to do in the short term that's going to change anything.

MORGAN: OK. Let's just -- now I want to move on quickly if we can to gay conversion therapy because I love this story. Let's watch a clip of Alan Chambers. This is a man from the Christian ministry group Exodus International. You may remember him. They used to try and get rid of people of their homosexuality. And he's now broken down and seen the error of his ways. Let's watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALAN CHAMBERS, EXODUS INTERNATIONAL: I'm sorry for the pain and the hurt that many of you have experienced. I'm sorry that some of you spent years working through shame and guilt you felt when your attractions didn't change. I'm sorry that we promoted sexual orientation change efforts and repair theories about sexual orientation that stigmatized parents.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: So, Abby Huntsman, I mean, I'm very pleased he's made this big apology and he gets emotional and so on. But the reality is he's been a pretty poisonous individual running a pretty poisonous organization.

HUNTSMAN: Yes, you'd like to say that, you know, this is a really courageous move but this should never have been going on to begin with. And there are other programs still out there doing the same thing.

You hear from folks that have gone through this program that -- have thought very seriously about taking their life. I mean, it's a very serious program we're talking about. And you know, I think it's the right thing not only to cancel the program but to come out with an apology. But this is a very real thing. I mean, I -- this is a positive move when we talk about equal rights. But we still have a long way to go and we're all evolving on this issue at a different pace.

MORGAN: Well, and also, he is evolving on the issue because he's got a wife and children, Mr. Alan Chambers. He previously identified himself as gay but acknowledged that he has ongoing same-sex attractions.

I mean, Marc Lamont Hill, the guy is a rank hypocrite who'd been causing a lot of suffering to people, and I'm glad as I say that he's apologized but a little bit too late.

HILL: It's a little too late. I have some sympathy for him because he obviously grew up in a culture and in a community where he was told that his own same-sex attraction was unhealthy, evil, maybe even un- Christian like. He was taught that he was a bad person for what he felt and he passed that on to others. This is important because we have a struggle for equal rights on the one hand but on the other we have a medical establishment and a psychological establishment that for too long has said that gay is wrong. If we're going to really move toward equal rights, we have to let people know that being gay, being same-gender loving is a feeling, it's an identity that is natural, that is normal and that people have from birth.

That's so important. So I hope they eliminate all of these organizations and there are some very prominent politicians who are either linked to these organizations or their spouses are.

MORGAN: Yes.

HILL: Like Michele Bachmann and I hope that all of them are called to the carpet for this.

MORGAN: Right. And quick word from your, Kai, about this.

RYSSDAL: Yes. I think it's just we've got to frame this in the context of the news. Right? The Supreme Court is going to be coming out in the next 10 days with decisions on Defense of Marriage and the California Prop 8 thing. And I think it's really relevant that this guy has now decided to do this.

MORGAN: Do you feel that the fact that someone like him has done this is indicative of just a sea change now coming through America quite quickly?

RYSSDAL: I think it's coming, and the only question is how quickly people are going to get out of the way when it does.

MORGAN: Let's take a short break. Everyone, stay right there. When we come back, I've got a question for all three of you. If you passed a baby on a balcony, would you stand there and urge it to run into your arms from two floors up? In other words, would you try and catch a baby flying through the air with the risk that you may be responsible for its death because that is what a very famous sports coach's daughter did.

I'm looking at you all wondering what the answer to that question is.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CRISTINA TORRE, JOE TORRE'S DAUGHTER: I'm talking to 911.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're talking to the baby.

TORRE: Yes. I'm talking to the baby.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And your positioning yourself?

TORRE: I'm positioning myself. As a teacher. I'm a teacher so intuitively I just do what needs to be done in the moment without thinking too much, I think.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What was going through your mind?

TORRE: Honestly nothing, just kept -- if the baby falls I just need to try to catch him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORGAN: An extraordinary story. Former Yankee manager Joe Torre's daughter catches a baby that's just fallen from the second floor of the building.

Back "Breaking the News" is Kai Ryssdal and Abby Huntsman and Marc Lamont Hill.

Let's start with you, Abby. So you're passing the street, right? You see a baby, it's about to tumble down two floors. Are you that heroine? Are you going to stand there and try and catch that baby knowing that one false move and it could die?

HUNTSMAN: It's so different reading the story and then putting it on prospective when you see exactly how far the baby fell. I mean, the chances of it slipping through your arms is actually very, very high. That aside, though, I think you always go with your gut instinct and you want to catch the baby.

I mean, especially in her position. She's a well-known woman. If anything were to happen, obviously a lot of attention would be put on the story. But I think you always go to your instinct and you want to save the baby. That's just -- that's what I would do.

MORGAN: Marc Lamont Hill, are you the -- are you the great baby saver?

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: I am the great baby saver.

MORGAN: I assume I'd have the guts. I've got a baby daughter. I assume I would have the guts to do what she did. But I've got to say --

RYSSDAL: How are your hands? That's what I'd like to know. How are your hands.

MORGAN: Christina Torre -- you got quite big hands.

RYSSDAL: There you go. That's right.

MORGAN: He's got big jog hands. He'd be all right. I mean, mine are quite delicate little things. I'd like to think with four kids I would do what she did but I've got to say it was an extraordinarily brave thing to do, wasn't it, Marc? HILL: It was incredibly brave. You know, many people pass by, when they see danger, many people don't pay attention to their surroundings, she paid attention to her surroundings, saw what was going on, and had the courage to catch this baby. She is awesome. She's matched in awesomeness by how terrible the parents are --

HUNTSMAN: Yes --

HILL: -- who let a baby walk out and risk death.

MORGAN: Yes.

HILL: I mean, that's the part I'm concerned with. How do you let your kid do that?

HUNTSMAN: Where are the parents? Who are these parents? I think that's the big question in here.

(CROSSTALK)

MORGAN: Kai, you say --

RYSSDAL: She had the presence of mind to get on the phone, right? She's calling 911.

MORGAN: Right.

RYSSDAL: And she's saying, listen, somebody has got to come help this kid and I'm going to stand here and see what happens. The other choice is, what, you climb up the balcony? I don't know. You've got to wait for this to happen.

MORGAN: It was a long way up. When you look at --

RYSSDAL: Yes.

MORGAN: And the way that we just saw in that clip, that is a long way.

RYSSDAL: Right.

MORGAN: That is a long way up and that was an extraordinary thing. And she saved that baby's life. The parents are awaiting arraignment you'd be unsurprised to hear on child endangerment charges.

Anyway, well done, Cristina Torre, if you're watching, and I'm sure you're not watching the game seven, you've been watching this instead. It was a great thing to do.

Let's move quickly to -- this is one of the most extraordinary things I've read all year. So there's a bunch of women -- I'm interviewing them tomorrow night. They're called the pop moms, and they're a group of mothers in Beverly Hills here in California who insists that smoking marijuana makes them better wives and better parents.

One of them said, well, I mean, you've got to give us some credit for this for the logic. "Being judged for doing something nontoxic and totally organic, enjoying a god-given plant by moms who suck back two bottles of chardonnay like sports drinks is hard to swallow. A drunk mother's pathetic often leave parties when I experience other mother tying one on."

RYSSDAL: These are the mom from the kid on the balcony?

MORGAN: Well --

RYSSDAL: Right? That's what --

MORGAN: But do they have a point? I mean, you know --

RYSSDAL: No, no, they don't have a point. Are you kidding me?

MORGAN: We now have several states in America have legalized marijuana.

HILL: Absolutely.

MORGAN: Is it any worse?

RYSSDAL: Marijuana intoxication is not legal, right? I mean --

MORGAN: Is it any worse, though, Kai, than guzzling chardonnays?

RYSSDAL: No, nobody is -- if you have children in your care, you shouldn't be guzzling anything, right? I mean, just to get it back to what we're talking about. You should be sensible about it. Have a glass of wine but, you know, I mean, come on, use your head.

MORGAN: Abby, quickly, would you be -- would you rather be guzzling chardonnay or having the few chicky splits?

(LAUGHTER)

HUNTSMAN: You know, this is a very strange conversation. But, Piers, I'm wondering if you're actually interviewing them, if you're actually hanging out with them on their -- on their mother-daughter night out. I think that's the real question there.

(LAUGHTER)

HILL: Yes. If you're eating Pringles --

(CROSSTALK)

RYSSDAL: That's right. Cameras on or cameras off?

MORGAN: Marc Lamont Hill, let me ask you one quick question. In 30 years' time will there be any state in America which still outlaws marijuana?

HILL: Probably Texas and Utah just because they're weird. But yes --

HUNTSMAN: Hey, hey, hey. Don't rip on Utah. Don't rip on Utah. HILL: I'm just (INAUDIBLE) a little bit.

MORGAN: And don't rip on Texas. I love Texas.

HILL: Everybody else would --

MORGAN: It's just that Alex Jones character I can't stand.

No, I've got to leave it there, guys.

Marc Lamont Hill, Abby Huntsman, Kai Ryssdal, great debate as always.

And if you're tuning in tomorrow night, we're having a pot special. The entire hour is being given over to a great debate about marijuana. It will be a riveting watch. I can feel it.

HUNTSMAN: I'm sure it will.

MORGAN: Thank you all very much indeed.

Coming next, behind the scenes of "The Sopranos." I'll talk to a man who literally wrote the book on Tony Soprano's place in television history.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MORGAN: That was the sound of Sunday nights for millions of Americans, the theme from HBO's "The Sopranos." The show revolutionized television and of course made superstar the late great James Gandolfini.

Well, joining me now is a man who knows what went on behind the scenes of the show, Bret Martin, who wrote the article "The Night Tony Soprano Disappeared" with the July issue of "GQ" is adapted from his book, "Difficult Men: Behind of a Creative Revolution, From the Sopranos and the Wire to Mad Men and Breaking Bad."

Brett, thanks for joining me. I -- it really was a trail blazer, "The Sopranos," wasn't it?

BRETT MARTIN, GQ CORRESPONDENT, "THE NIGHT TONY SOPRANO DISAPPEARED": Yes. I don't think you can overstate the degree to which it'd changed the television landscape and the degree to which Gandolfini's performance really made that possible.

MORGAN: You were on set for many of the -- of the episodes of the last season of "The Sopranos."

MARTIN: Correct.

MORGAN: Tell me about James Gandolfini as an actor and as a performance from the close corners that you watched him.

MARTIN: Right. Well, I had the -- you know, I was able to watch him three or four times over the course of that season and I wrote today on -- you know, on gq.com that when I have grandchildren I'll tell them that I saw Michael Jordan play basketball. I'll tell them I saw Jack Jacques Pepin make an omelet, and I saw James Gandolfini play Tony Soprano.

It was, you know, usually a film set is an entirely torturous set to spend time at all, it's boring, it's deadly. And yet watching him do even the most mundane scene was utterly hypnotizing. Every take that he did would be just a shade different. He knew that character so intimately that it was like watching a real live person and I think that that is part of what -- that power came through almost all of his performances on that show.

MORGAN: Also, I think the key thing -- the key thing I always felt with him was that because of the kind of man he was in real life, a very warm, sensitive guy, John Travolta told an extraordinary story this morning. I was watching about how when his son died, James Gandolfini raced to his side and stayed with him for a week, just to make sure that he was OK.

He's obviously an incredibly caring, decent man, playing this mobster, this evil mobster, but he was able give that mobster a humanity that made him an empathetic character. And that became a template for many other characters to come.

MARTIN: Absolutely. I mean, I think you -- you know, it's hard again to remember now how radical it was to have a leading man like him, that looked like him, first of all, and that acted like Tony Soprano, and once we broke through that, you know, we started to accept Tony Soprano all throughout, you know, on practically every show on television and I -- it was because he had that depth. He was able to bring a kind of relatability, and sadness, a kind of a depth to the character that worked alongside the terrible things he was doing in all the terrible ways in which he acted.

And then that is --

MORGAN: Right.

MARTIN: That is the -- in my book I argue that's the defining -- redefining trade of this -- what I'm calling the golden age of -- third golden age of television.

MORGAN: Right. Brett, thank you so much for joining me. I want to just leave this segment with a little clip from "Inside the Actors Studio" from 2004, obviously interviewed by James Lipton, particularly poignant given James Gandolfini's tragic death. Let's watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES LIPTON, INSIDE THE ACTORS STUDIO: If heaven exist, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the pearly gates?

JAMES GANDOLFINI, ACTOR: Take over for a while, I'll be right back. No. No, no.

LIPTON: That's it. That's it.

GANDOLFINI: Oh, no, no.

LIPTON: You dare not change it. It's too good. It's too good.

GANDOLFINI: Think of the possibilities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MORGAN: Tomorrow a special PIERS MORGAN LIVE special, "Gone to Pot: America's Marijuana Obsession?" And we've got some late breaking news, which may or may not to be true. But this made me laugh so much I'm going to repeat it. TMZ is reporting that Kim and Kanye have named their baby North. Northwest. I kid you not.

That's all for us tonight. Anderson Cooper starts right now.