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Global Chase for NSA Leaker; Nelson Mandela in Critical Condition; Zimmerman Opening Statement to Begin; American Journey

Aired June 23, 2013 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


WHITFIELD: Leg of her world tour in Los Angeles. All right, that's going to do it for me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. Much more of the CNN NEWSROOM straight ahead with my colleague Don Lemon.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. Top of the hour, I'm Don Lemon. Tonight we come on the air with some unfortunate news about a man who is a current representation of freedom and equality around the world. Nelson Mandela, the 94-year-old former president of South Africa. There is late word tonight that his health has taken a turn for the worse in just the past 24 hours. Critical condition, according to the current South African president, Jacob Zuma.

We are monitoring South African television for you. And CNN is live outside the hospital in Pretoria where Mandela is right now. And where Zuma is also saying this. He's saying the doctors are doing everything possible to get his condition to improve and are ensuring that Madiba, Mandela's tribal name, is well looked after and is comfortable. He is in good hands.

Mandela has been hospitalized in Pretoria since June 8th for a recurring lung infection. And previously authorities had described his condition as serious, but stable. And Mandela has become increasingly frail over the years. He hasn't appeared in public since South Africa hosted the World Cup in 2010.

The anti-apartheid hero has been in and -- in and out of the hospital in recent years. And his history of lung problems began when he was a political prisoner on Robin Island for 27 years during the apartheid era. He's battled respiratory infections ever since.

Tonight we want to tell you that the White House also monitoring this situation in South Africa right now. A National Security Council spokeswoman issuing a statement saying, "We have seen the latest reports from the South African government that former president Mandela is in critical condition. Our thoughts and our prayers are with him, his family and the people of South Africa."

We want to tell you, we're keeping a close watch on this situation in South Africa. A live report from the hospital in just moments.

But first, more breaking news tonight here on CNN. And it involves a diplomatic cliffhanger. NSA leaker Edward Snowden is on the run in a global cat-and-mouse game. Snowden flew out of the Hong Kong today despite the U.S. asking Hong Kong to hold him for extradition proceedings. Hong Kong says it denied the U.S. request to detain Snowden because it did not receive proper documentation. And right now Snowden is holed up in Moscow. And the fragile U.S./Russia relationship may be facing a big test.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: The freedom trail is not exactly China, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela. So I hope we'll -- chase him to the ends of the earth, bring him to justice and let the Russians know there will be consequences if they harbor this guy.

REP. MIKE ROGERS (R-MI), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: You think about what he says he wants and what his actions are, it defies logic. They should use every legal avenue we have to bring him back to the United States. If he really believes he did something good he should get on a plane, come back and face the consequences of his actions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Snowden's ultimate destination might be Ecuador, the same country that has helped WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange. WikiLeaks is not the only voice supporting Snowden. A journalist who helped break the Snowden story is defending Snowden's global sprint.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GLENN GREENWALD, COLUMNIST, THE GUARDIAN: You know, the question that we ought to be asking is, why is an American citizen who joined the U.S. military to fight the war in Iraq, who has worked for the CIA and the NSA -- why does he feel compelled to flee his own country simply because he informs his fellow citizens about this jar of spying, not a lot are said to being dealt in the dark and about -- and about lies being told by U.S. officials?

So I -- if I were a whistleblower, looking at a lot of the administration's record, I, too, would want to stay out of the grasp of the U.S. government. And so it doesn't come as a surprise to me now that he's trying to avoid falling into the clutches of the U.S. government.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And the Snowden mess could put the U.S. in a diplomatic bind affecting the future relationship with Russia and China.

The U.S. has yanked Snowden's passport and asks other countries to turn him away. And right now Snowden is believed to be holed up inside Moscow's airport. Earlier a CNN crew spotted a car with diplomatic plates and an Ecuadorian flag at the Moscow airport.

Want to get straight now to Moscow. CNN's Phil Black is there.

Phil, what is the very latest there? Are you hearing anything about Snowden's current location? PHIL BLACK, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Don, it looks like Snowden is spending the night in the transit area of Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport. He probably has little choice. Because we don't think it's likely he has a Russian visa, assuming that his travel has all been organized very quickly and in short notice. He just wouldn't have the time. Those things aren't given out quickly or easily.

So knowing that he has applied officially for asylum in Ecuador, the thinking is that he probably wants to get to that country or that region as quickly as possible. And if that's the case, then it would seem that the most direct way would be a flight -- an (INAUDIBLE) flight from Moscow to Havana and Cuba tomorrow afternoon. And so in the meantime, it looks like he's prepared to wait out that time in the terminal itself -- Don.

LEMON: And Phil, what about that car with the Ecuadorian flag? Are you hearing anything about the car or who may have been inside?

BLACK: Well, the flags tell us that it belonged to the ambassador himself. Ecuador's ambassador to Russia based here at the embassy in Moscow, which I guess is a sign that this is being handled at a fairly high level within Ecuador's government. The interesting thing is that that car was at the airport before the flight arrived.

So certainly there has been some contact with the government of Ecuador. They knew he was coming. They knew he was going to do this. When really his departure from Hong Kong came as something of a surprise to much of the world. We really didn't learn about it until he was already in the air inbound for the Russia capital -- Don.

LEMON: And, Phil, does the U.S. really have any leverage with Russia to try to cut a possible deal to hand over Snowden?

BLACK: Well, at least two countries, the very complex relationship, do have a lot of big mutual interests so yes, there is leverage there in a sense. But, of course, as we know, there are also significant differences, arguments they can also antagonize each other significantly as well.

So really, the key question now is what will Russia do? How will the Russian government respond to the fact that he's arrived on their doorstep? Do they know he was coming? We don't know that really. But will they let him fly, will they try to extract more intelligence or will they assist the United States in helping to reclaim this most wanted of citizens at the moment?

We just don't know. The Russian government has not given any official statement since Snowden arrived in this country -- Don.

LEMON: Phil Black, appreciate that.

So until we hear for sure that a country has agreed to take Edward Snowden, his future travel plans, well, they're a big question mark right now.

BLACK: Thank you.

LEMON: It looks like he is interested in Ecuador, but look at these other places. Remember a couple of days ago a businessman from Iceland offered Snowden a private plane there. There is also Venezuela and what about Cuba?

The U.S. State Department sent out a blanket message to every country, every country in the western hemisphere requesting Snowden be sent directly to the States if he shows up.

Most of those potential destinations for Edward Snowden have something in common. They are openly hostile to the United States or they're friendly to leakers and whistleblowers.

Let's get some folks in here to talk about these possible places Snowden might run to. Jill Daugherty is our foreign affairs correspondent, Tom Fuentes is a former assistant director for the FBI, and CNN's Patrick Oppmann live in Havana, Cuba right now.

Jill, I want to start with you first. Ecuador, why would Edward Snowden presumable find safe haven there?

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, you have to look at Julian Assange who of course is Mr. WikiLeaks. And he is holed up in London, in the Ecuadorian embassy there. So there's a natural connection you have to say. In fact, he had advised Snowden to go to some type of Latin American country.

And, you know, relations between the U.S. and Ecuador aren't that bad really, except that there is that connection and the government, the president of Ecuador is -- you could call him in a sense a Chavista, a person who was -- you know, tight with Mr. Chavez, now dead, who was the former president of Venezuela.

So there are connections there. And we'll just have to see. I have to point out, Don, too, you know, this debate over how Snowden got from Hong Kong to Russia, et cetera, is still very open. In fact the Department of Justice saying that it is disappointed and disagrees -- this just came out. Disappointed and disagrees with the decision by Hong Kong to let him go and says they were in communication ever since the 10th and never heard any type of word back from the Hong Kong authorities that everything was not in order. That was the reason that they gave just today for letting Snowden go.

LEMON: OK. To Tom Fuentes now.

Tom, you know, Snowden's passport is now no good, revoked by the U.S. government. Why is this important and how does it change his travel situation?

TOM FUENTES, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: Hi, Don. Well, the problem it creates for him is that no country really has to admit him. But we don't know, you know, with WikiLeaks and other benefactors that we don't know if he's got another passport. If he has dual citizenship with another country. That's a possibility that he could travel on a different passport. But if he only possesses a U.S. passport, he's not going to be able to travel on that. He's not going to be able to request a visa officially because they require that the passport be valid for at least another six months past the date of travel.

But if they want to admit him and give him asylum or let him in to be talked to long enough without actually fully admitting him, they can do that. They can pretty much do what they want. And that's what we don't know and that's what complicates the issue for us right now.

LEMON: Yes. Patrick Oppmann in Havana now.

Patrick, you know, what is -- talk to me about today's state of relations between Cuba and the U.S. If Snowden does land in Cuba, what kind of reception do you think he'd get?

PATRICK OPPMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, of course, Don, he's almost on U.S. doorstep, just 100 miles away from the United States but there are few places where the United States actually has less leverage in the world than in Cuba. Already Cuba faces a U.S. economic embargo. Relations remain very poor, although Cuban officials have said over the last few months they'd like to see better relations with the United States.

It's very unlikely, though, that if Edward Snowden arrives in Havana that he will be turned over to the United States. Ecuador is a close Cuba ally. If Ecuador wants to receive and give him political asylum, it's very likely the Cuban officials will give him safe passage -- Don.

LEMON: You think so? Is there any chance? So you think that he'd be arrested and sent to the U.S. at any of these places?

OPPMANN: You know, as he travels on it just seems less and less likely. You know, listen, if the United States can't get Hong Kong, Russia, countries that we have diplomatic relationships with, countries that we trade with, countries that in some cases could be considered on certain issues allies, when he gets to whether it's Cuba, Venezuela, Ecuador, countries that have been in the past up until today openly hostile towards U.S. foreign policy where, you know, here in Cuba, Edward Snowden has been celebrated as a hero.

We've been watching all day long even as Cuban officials refused to comment in the Cuban state press, they're sort of gearing up and talking about this man who's embarrassed their enemies in Washington. So I think it's very unlikely that Cuban officials are going to bow to any kind of U.S. pressure. That's just not what they do -- Don.

LEMON: I'm wondering now, Tom, if this all changes, if his image changes at all. Because it's been a story that's been a big interest to the media, quite frankly, big interest to people in government. Not a big interest to people at home who are just worried about getting along every day.

But I wonder if the perception now of Edward Snowden changes since he has now appears to be on the run and seeking safe haven rather than standing up and saying, hey, listen, I did something good and I'm going to stand here and fight for it, Tom Fuentes? FUENTES: No, I think you're right, Don. I think he's starting to look like your garden variety gangster trying to avoid being apprehended and brought back to justice. So, you know, I think that the whole, he had great motives, he wanted to go to Hong Kong because it's a free place and he can express his views with sympathy. Well, I think the Chinese have shown that that was not the case and they didn't want him. And I think there's a lot of back channel traffic going on among all of these countries starting with the U.S. and China over the -- when he landed in Hong Kong.

And I think that the Chinese pretty much showed, we don't want him here. The Russians are talking to him now. They may not want him either and just allow him to transit out because he is kind of a hot potato. And I don't think they're going to want to keep him.

LEMON: All right. Jill, Tom, Patrick, thanks to all of you. Appreciate it.

Coming up on CNN, Nelson Mandela takes a turn for the worse. We'll take you live to South Africa. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Back to our top story here on CNN. Former South African president, Nelson Mandela, now in critical condition after his health dramatically worsened in just the last 24 hours.

Want to get now to CNN's Nkepile Mabuse, she is live outside the hospital in Pretoria, South Africa. She joins me now by phone.

So, Nkepile, I find it interesting, it's really the middle of the night there. And people, many South Africans don't even know yet. How will they find out, when they wake up in the morning?

NKEPILE MABUSE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Exactly. Many South Africans will only find out when they wake up on Monday morning. This is such a significant shift that the president's office, who basically control and communicate information, to do with the former president's health, found it important enough to send out a statement at around 9:30 this evening to alert the South African public, and of course the world, that former president Nelson Mandela's health is deteriorating.

When he was admitted here on the 8th of June in the early hours of that Saturday morning, we were told that his condition was serious but stable, that he was suffering from a recurring lung infection. This condition, the statements that have come from the presidency have not changed about his condition until this Sunday night -- Don.

So people will be waking up to the shocking news. Of course, Mandela has been in and out of hospital at least four times since December, but a very, very anxious South Africa will be awaiting more news from the presidency in the early hours -- I mean, when they wake up in the morning -- Don.

LEMON: And Nkepile, I want you to listen to something that I'm going to play for you because -- and then we can talk about it. CNN's Robyn Curnow sat down exclusively with Mandela's oldest daughter before the new announcement about his health. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAKI MANDELA, DAUGHTER OF NELSON MANDELA: And we haven't come to the end yet. It is only God who knows the end.

ROBYN CURNOW, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Is he aware of just how sick he is or has he kind of gone already even though he's still physically here?

MANDELA: No. I don't think he's gone. He's still there. He still opens his eyes. He's still -- the touch is there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And so his family has projected a positive mood throughout his hospitalization. And tell our viewers about South Africans because you relate something to me in the break I thought was very important. You said he's been in and out of hospital for two years. He's a fighter.

MABUSE: He is a fighter. And every time Mr. Mandela is hospitalized, the people who know him best, people who have been with him all these years always say that they believe in him and his fighting spirit. He has always been a fighter, fighting for democracy, of course, for this country. And the reason why he is described as the father of this nation and the reason why our people get so anxious and so worried every time he is admitted to hospital.

But of course, Don, he's 94 years old.

LEMON: Right.

MABUSE: He's turning 95 next month. He's lived a very, very long life. And this recurring lung infection has been a problem for a very long time in Nelson Mandela's life. He contracted tuberculosis when he was in prison in 1988. And his lungs have been weak ever since. And of course age just exacerbates the situation.

But as I said, South Africans, many of them don't know what is happening to the father of this nation. They will find out in the morning and I can assure you this is going to be a very worried and very anxious South Africa despite his age and despite the history of his health -- Don.

LEMON: Nkepile Mabuse standing by at the hospital in Pretoria, South Africa, where Nelson Mandela is right now.

Thank you. We'll get back to you if the situation warrants and throughout the evening here on CNN.

But again, former South African President Nelson Mandela in hospital right now. Critical condition, his health has taken a turn for the worse. Everyone is monitoring this including the White House. The White House has responded to reports of Nelson Mandela's declining health. This statement today, "We have seen the latest reports from the South African government that former President Mandela is in critical condition. Our thoughts and prayers are with him, his family and the people of South Africa."

To the White House now and Dan Lothian.

Dan, the president and first family are departing for Africa just in a few days. What are you hearing? Is a visit to Pretoria you think a possibility?

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, that's always a possibility. It's a question we've been asking aides here at the White House. And they say that it really depends on Nelson Mandela's health. They're deferring to the family because they realize that this is a very delicate time for Mr. Mandela and for his family. And so they don't want to sort of interrupt this, but the president very much would like to meet him because, as a top advisor pointed out, the president considers Nelson Mandela -- Mandela, rather, one of his heroes going back to when the president was in college.

He was inspired by the apartheid movement and the sacrifices of Nelson -- Nelson, rather, Mandela. President Obama first met Mr. Mandela here in Washington back in 2005. And then after he was elected in 2008, Nelson Mandela called the president. They've spoken by phone several times over the last several years.

And so the White House monitoring the situation and we're told by a top aide in touch with the Mandela family, and will sort of take guidance from them as to whether or not the president will meet with them.

LEMON: Dan Lothian is at the White House.

Of course we have correspondents in South Africa, as well. Dan will be monitoring that situation.

Dan, thank you very much. We appreciate it.

On to other news now, it was a shooting that stirred motions across the nation. Tomorrow opening statements will be given in the trial of George Zimmerman for the shooting of teenager Trayvon Martin. We're going to look at the latest developments next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: One shooting, two very different stories. And tomorrow we'll finally begin to hear the facts in court surrounding the shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.

Opening statements are set to begin in the trial of George Zimmerman who says he shot Martin in self-defense. But a big step in the case came, well, just this weekend. The judge ruled testimony from two prosecution witnesses who analyzed screams on 911 calls cannot be used.

The case will also be heard by an all-female jury. And I spoke with HLN anchor Jane Velez-Mitchell and I asked her if she was surprised by that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN'S "JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL": It seems kind of non-diverse. And that was a little shocking to me, but I do feel we kind of live hopefully in a post racial world where we can't just say, well, because you are of a certain race and gender, you are going to decide that way. And I think the fact they're all women, that is kind of a bombshell. And five of the six of them are moms?

LEMON: But who does that help that they're all women? Does that help the prosecution? Does it help the defense? Are they figuring women are going to be more sympathetic to the other? Why?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I would think that the easy answer is that five of the six are moms. They're women. They're going to be sympathetic to parents who lost a 17-year-old child who went to get Skittles and a soft drink and came back in the rain and died.

I think that that is a big win for the prosecution in that sense, but what concerns me is four of the six have a very healthy relationship with guns. One used to have a concealed weapons permit. So what does that say? Could that help the defense?

LEMON: Interesting. So I've been interested in the words that they can and can't use. They cannot say racial profiling, but they can say profiling. Are they going to be able to bring race into this?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think that's a very interesting point because I think that some words are very loaded. And the reason why there was such careful crafting around that is that profiling can be based on a number of things.

LEMON: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that the sense was that perhaps this profiling was based not just on the race of the victim, but also on his age, what he was wearing. We heard about the infamous hoodie. So I think that it was sort of a combo platter of factors that created a profile allegedly and they don't want to make it all about just the color of his skin.

LEMON: Why the fuss over what can be brought in? What videotapes? What experts can use --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Because it's a murky, dark, rainy night and nobody really knows what happened except one person who is dead and the other person who's telling his story and is on trial. So those screams on the 911 call, those are absolutely crucial. And the question is, who is screaming?

Now there are experts who say it's junk science to say that you can say who is screaming. If you listen to it, it sounds like, ah, but there were others who say there is a way to crystallize that sound and get in there and hear whose voice it is screaming for help. That will determine whether George Zimmerman, as he claims, shot in self-defense because he was attacked or whether he assaulted and targeted this young man. And the young man was screaming because he was being attacked.

LEMON: Here is the interesting thing. And a lot of people ask me. If you're walking in your own neighborhood where you're supposed to be and someone says, hey, what are you doing here? What do you say to them?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that's --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: What do you think? Most people say, what do you think I'm doing here? I live here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The whole notion that that's why there was so much debate over this vigilante issue and the wording that is going to be allowed to be used.

LEMON: They can say vigilante, right?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: They can say certain words. But the point is that the tape, the tape that George Zimmerman did, a reenactment tape.

LEMON: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is a fascinating thing. He is showing the cops what he did. And he acknowledges that they said, are you following him? And he said, yes. They said, you don't need to do that.

LEMON: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But he also proceeds to look for the address. Is he really looking for the address or is he using the address as an excuse to continue looking for the young man?

LEMON: Fascinating. Jane Velez-Mitchell, 9:00 a.m. Eastern Time, Monday morning, it starts.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow.

LEMON: And you will be right there. You will be watching and covering this on your show.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I will be covering it on my show on HLN, absolutely.

LEMON: Thank you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you, Don.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Make sure you watch Jane every night on HLN at 7:00 p.m.

Hong Kong denies a U.S. request to extradite NSA leaker back to this country. Are they thumbing their noses at the Obama administration? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is on the run in a global cat-and- mouse game. Snowden flew out of Hong Kong today despite the U.S. asking Hong Kong to hold him for extradition proceedings. Hong Kong says it denied the U.S. request to detain Snowden because it did not receive proper documentation.

The Justice Department says it's disappointed in Hong Kong's refusal to arrest Snowden. And right now Snowden is holed up in Moscow. And the fragile U.S./Russia relationship may be facing a big test.

Snowden's ultimate destination might be Ecuador, the same country that has helped WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange. And WikiLeaks says it is helping Snowden as he seeks asylum.

OK, so the U.S. yanks Snowden's passport and is asking other countries to turn him away.

Democratic Senator Charles Schumer is pointing fingers at Russia's leader.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: What is infuriating here is Prime Minister Putin of Russia aiding and abetting Snowden's escape. The bottom line is very simple. Allies are supposed to treat each other in decent ways.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Let's bring in now our political panel. CNN analyst and Republican strategist Ana Navarro is in beautiful Miami right now. And special correspondent for "The Root,: theroot.com, Keli Goff joins me right here in New York.

And so, Ana, to you first, what does this Snowden conundrum say about America's diplomatic standing in the world? I mean, right now, it seems like some U.S. requests are just basically being ignored.

ANA NAVARRO, CNN ANALYST: They might as well not even request anything because it's so embarrassing what ensues after that. I think Senator Schumer is absolutely right. It's infuriating that Russia -- that China are supposed to be our allies, we have no allies with Russia or China. What they are are strategic relationships when they are convenient mutually. We also don't have friends in Latin America. There are three different countries that this guy could be going to that are just thumbing their nose and laughing at the lack of U.S. strength in the world.

It tells you, we have friends that are not really friends and we've got a lot of enemies who have no qualms about thumbing their nose in front of the U.S.

LEMON: All right, Keli, so let's talk about Hong Kong and China. Critics say that Hong Kong thumbed its nose at the U.S., right? I mean, is that because they said detain him, don't let him go. They let him go.

KELI GOFF, SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT, THE ROOT: Right.

LEMON: What do you make of that?

GOFF: Right now, I say that Hong Kong and Russia are both looking like friends with not so many benefits. I think that'd be the best way to describe them. And you know that we've officially entered really new territory when you have Senator Chuck Schumer and Senator Lindsey Graham agreeing on frankly anything. But agreeing -- viscerally, vociferously on something.

And so, look, I think that this is an interesting story. I don't think we should be that shocked at how it's playing out in Hong Kong. Let's not forget that Hong Kong was a British colony until 1997.

LEMON: Right.

GOFF: Got some autonomy. But let's also not forget that that China's official news agency, Don, specifically said that these leaks make the U.S. look like, I think, the world's biggest villain. It was something like that.

LEMON: Right.

GOFF: That that was their description of us. So if there is anyone who should be more upset with what Snowden revealed that Americans, it's probably going to be people in China because we found out that they were being hacked, too.

LEMON: OK.

GOFF: So that's -- that's not me defending them.

LEMON: But listen --

GOFF: That's me saying this is why -- what they're asking, why we shouldn't be surprised.

LEMON: OK. So, you know, whether it's right or wrong to do this, that's a different question. You think the U.S. is the only -- the only country that does this?

GOFF: Of course not.

LEMON: OK, so what then?

GOFF: Of course not.

LEMON: All right.

GOFF: But it's giving them an excuse. It's sort of like when someone is looking for an excuse to break up with you, here's the excuse.

LEMON: Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

GOFF: It's been laid out for them.

LEMON: They are not even doing it with a Post-It note. They're doing it with I'm not even taking a phone call.

GOFF: Right. Here's a text. Here's a text.

LEMON: Right. Yes. They're not even taking a phone call.

Anna, to you know, I mean, what's the U.S. political impact on Snowden's global sprint for Republicans? Is this an opportunity to hammer the Obama administration, quite frankly?

NAVARRO: You know, the politics on this, Don, is rather weird. You've got libertarian Republicans on the one hand, then you've got progressive Democrats on the other who are aligned and who -- you know, some of them think Snowden is a hero. And then you've got most of Republicans, I would say, and you've got many Democrats, including leadership like Schumer, like Nancy Pelosi, who do not see him as a hero and who do not condone or like what he's done and are against it, as is the Obama administration.

So it is a weird conundrum politically. Because you've got --

LEMON: It's almost --

NAVARRO: -- some weird bedfellows going on here.

GOFF: Right.

NAVARRO: And I feel, Keli, you know, I'm not sure that Russia and China qualify as, you know, friends with few benefits. I think they are enemies with benefits.

LEMON: Yes.

NAVARRO: You know? They've clearly proven they are no friends of ours.

LEMON: Yes.

NAVARRO: And yet they get a great deal of benefits from the strategic alliances economic and otherwise that they have with us.

GOFF: Well, who knew that there would be a worst diplomatic crisis between us and Russia than the Bob Kraft ring story? And now it looks like we have it. But, you know, what's interesting about the politics, she hit the nail on the head, I think, Don, which is that Americans are actually extremely divided. A majority of Americans say that they -- that they think that these -- what the government is doing help -- protect us, excuse me, from terrorist attacks, but they're also extremely divided on whether or not what the government did is wrong. And so I think that kind of gets at the heart of why this is a tough story.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: And this whole hero thing. I mean, quite frankly, and someone I forget who it was, compared Edward Snowden to Rosa Parks.

GOFF: Oh, gosh.

LEMON: Heroes --

(CROSSTALK)

NAVARRO: That, Don, is crazy.

GOFF: Yes.

NAVARRO: Don, as we sit here tonight, you know, Nelson Mandela is in critical condition.

LEMON: He is a hero.

GOFF: Exactly.

NAVARRO: People like Nelson Mandela, people like John Lewis, people who took in government abuse and confronted it in their countries.

(CROSSTALK)

GOFF: And didn't run. And did not run.

LEMON: And didn't run. Right. They stayed in the country. Right.

NAVARRO: That's right.

LEMON: Right.

NAVARRO: That is right. And by the way, there's people in Cuba and Venezuela and in Ecuador who are in that category today. The three countries that Mr. Snowden, who I guess got his itinerary booked by the Karl Marx travel agency, is, you know, choosing which to go to, there are dissidents there today, taking on the abuse by those three governments that are not democratic and that are abusive of their governmental power.

That is a hero. Somebody that does it at --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Well, it's also --

NAVARRO: --as somebody flying all over the world.

LEMON: It's also interesting where you're saying that he's going to a place where there are political prisoners and there aren't rights because he stands his best chance.

(LAUGHTER)

GOFF: Right.

LEMON: Right here in the United States.

GOFF: You can't make this up. You can't make this up.

LEMON: Right.

GOFF: The majority of Americans, though, think he should be prosecuted.

LEMON: Yes.

GOFF: So it's very -- people are very divided --

LEMON: The majority of Americans who are actually paying attention to it.

GOFF: Who are paying attention.

LEMON: Because I think it's more of a journalistic story and a government story and it doesn't really resonate. That's just my --

GOFF: Paula Deen is getting way more coverage.

LEMON: Paula Deen is getting --

GOFF: Has more attention --

LEMON: Paula Deen's Twitter thing is trending and still --

NAVARRO: Paula Deen needs to -- can I tell you? Paula Deen needs to send Edward Snowden a big box of Smithfield ham because this has been a very long press weekend for her but for him.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Thank you, both. Always a great conversation with both of you. Appreciate it.

All right. South Africans coming to grips with the reality that Nelson Mandela, the man that defined the end of apartheid, may soon be gone. Next, how his country will respond.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We're keeping a close eye on the condition of former South African President Nelson Mandela who has been called the most famous politician of his generation and now the former South African president is in critical condition.

His health has dramatically worsened in the last 24 hours as the 94- year-old continues to battle a recurring lung infection.

And CNN's Nadia Bilchik joins us now from Atlanta. Very close with the family. For years. You've known them for years. Have you spoken to them today?

NADIA BILCHIK, CNN EDITORIAL PRODUCER: A couple of hours I was in touch, Don. And I said, is what the South African president is saying accurate? Is it as bad as they're saying it is? And I got a simple word back -- yes. So obviously he's in very critical condition. And a lot of concern about how he is doing.

LEMON: Let's talk about life there after Mandela, meaning what is South Africa to be like after he's gone?

BILCHIK: And that's a question that so many people ask. It's like, when I spoke to his granddaughters earlier in the year, I asked them that question. And let's hear from Zamaswazi Dlamini as to what she thinks is going to happen when her grandfather is no longer physically with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZAMASWAZI DLAMINI, NELSON MANDELA'S GRANDDAUGHTER: I think people need to remember that, you know, my grandfather played a huge role. And not only him, many other South Africans played a huge role to get us where we are now.

I think my grandfather said this when he was resigning from public life that, you know, it is now up to South Africans to take it forward and take this country forward.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BILCHIK: So remember, Don, that people haven't seen Mandela really since 2010. And he left public office in 1999, so there is a feeling very strongly that the transition will be peaceful, and while everybody will mourn him and they'll miss him, there won't be any unrest. Although there are some reports that there may be, but the South African National Defense Force is going to be on alert should there be any unrest.

But I did want to share with you, you know, I spoke to (INAUDIBLE), one of his very good friends and someone who was on Robin Island with him. I spoke to him on Friday and he had said let Madiba go. And I said, what did you mean by that? And he said it's time to let him go spiritually so that if he is ready, he can move on.

LEMON: Thank you, Nadia Bilchik. We're going to be watching this very closely. It's sad to see him go, but at some point everyone has to. And he's had a long life and has dealt with some very terrible situations. But again we are watching the situation in South Africa. Nadia will be back and our correspondents will as well if -- if the situation warrants it. If his health takes another turn for the worse.

In the meantime, NSA leaker Edward Snowden on the run now. Where is he going and is there any chance that he'll ever be back on U.S. soil? That's next.

But first, CNN's Tom Foreman has this week's "American Journey." (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Rushing through the early traffic and hurrying to their desks, Dana Shamley and Barry Friedman are honing their talent and hoping to prove their worth during a summer internship at the big public relations form Ogilvy. But they know just by being here they've already beaten the odds.

DANA SHAMLEY, INTERN: They told us here at Ogilvy that almost 500 people applied for 10 spots.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

SHAMLEY: So it was very competitive.

FRIEDMAN: We definitely feel very lucky to have been offered a position.

SHAMLEY: Yes. Very, very lucky.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This will not be your average internship.

FOREMAN: The new hit movie "The Internship" pokes fun at adults stepping up the competition in this arena. But it's no joke. Once the purview of the ambitious few, internships are now being aggressively sought by grown-ups looking for career changes and younger and younger students, too. According to the Web site Internmatch.

ANDREW MAGUIRE, CEO, INTERNMATCH: One of the things we noted in our report is that 50 percent of the students that do an internship are completing it by the end of their sophomore year. You know, so this isn't just something that juniors and seniors are doing. It's happening earlier and companies are recruiting earlier to, you know, try to stay a step ahead.

FOREMAN: The goals for a great many, make contacts, open doors and spin that internship into employment. That's what Shefali Vyas was after.

(On camera): So how did you make that happen?

SHEFALI VYAS, FORMER INTERN: I tried to make best my internship. Tried gain as much experience as I could. And then I let them know that I wanted to work here.

FOREMAN: It worked.

VYAS: It worked.

FOREMAN (voice-over): She interned at Ogilvy three years ago and she's never left.

Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The man accused of leaking information about U.S. surveillance programs on the move now. He is trying to keep at least one step ahead of U.S. agencies aiming to bring him back here to face prosecution.

Our Tom Foreman, live in Washington now.

So, Tom, Edward Snowden has jumped from continent to continent in just a few weeks. Where is he now and where do we think he's headed?

FOREMAN: Well, that is a good question. We know that right now he's over here in Moscow. Where is he headed? It's like that old Steely Dan song, any world I'm welcome to is better than the one I come from. So WikiLeaks is trying to make sure he is welcome somewhere. Putting on statements like this, calling him a whistleblower, who's exposing global surveillance regime, basically trying to paint him as a hero, who's a victim in a sense, hoping, hoping that someone will want to take him in.

But, Don, look at this. Right now we believe he's at the airport here in Moscow. And he might be headed to Ecuador or maybe to Cuba or maybe to Ecuador through Cuba or maybe Venezuela. We don't really know where he's headed. But we do know this. He has a challenge in front of him because basically out of the whole world, if you take the western hemisphere minus Cuba down here, almost all these places have extradition treaties with the United States.

Europe does -- this is very precise, it gives you an idea, India, Australia down here. Some of the nations of Africa do as well. I won't try to make everything but generally you can see there's a limited scope of where he can go, Don.

LEMON: Yes.

FOREMAN: Where there isn't somebody who has some burden to turn him in, even if they say no. Like Ecuador down here, if they say we're not going to do it, they're still fighting against a treaty that they agreed to.

LEMON: Tom, let's talk about this. I mean, this is the U.S. Right? This is -- we have SEAL Team Six, you know, bin Laden. So why can't -- why is it so hard? This guy is able to hop around, it appears, very easily and not be caught so far.

FOREMAN: I think it's -- I think it's an image that he's hopping around easily. I don't think he's hopping around easily at all. The simple truth is every single time that he moves out here in this environment, he's running a risk, he's running a risk because, one, he may stray into one of these places where there are agreements for people to send him back to us. Something like that, that can happen because a plane gets diverted or anything else.

But the other thing is, you have to bear in mind, even the places that are willing to host him that do not have extradition treaties with us are not necessarily held to that, Don.

LEMON: Yes.

FOREMAN: If they see it's in their interest to the return him, they can do it. And I think his whole life has changed forever no matter where he winds up.

LEMON: Yes. And I'm making that obviously just an example. Obviously, that he's not being hunted, but still we've got, you know, a vast arsenal of ways to find people. It's just interesting it appears that he's able to hop around.

Great demonstration. Thank you very much, Tom Foreman, in Washington. We appreciate that.

Food Network has pulled the plug on celebrity chef Paula Deen. Now more companies may be following suit. That's ahead but first this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Since he was born nerves were torn in his shoulder and he couldn't move his arm at all.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the things the doctor asked us to do was to help them understand what the shoulder blade was doing in individual patients.

STEPHANIE RUSSO, MEDICAL STUDENT, DREXEL UNIVERSITY: The type of research he does is very cutting edge. And things that have never been done before.

JIM RICHARDS, BIOMECHANIST, UNIVERSITY OF DELAWARE: What we bring to the table is the ability to analyze human motion without involving radiation. The long-term goal of that is to be able to provide us with somewhat of a what-if scenario. So what if we took this tendon and moved it to a different attachment point? How would it affect a child's movement so a surgeon can, in essence, perform the surgery to see what the outcome would be on the computer before ever working with the patient?

DR. SCOTT KOZIN, M.D., SHRINERS HOSPITAL FOR CHILDREN: Jim's work is extremely innovative. He has changed the way we care for people.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Watch how Jim Richards' 3-D models are redefining the way surgeons treat children. This Saturday, 2:30 p.m. Eastern on "THE NEXT LIST."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: A couple of other quick headlines before we go. After admitting she had used a racial slur celebrity chef Paul Deen apologized in two separate videos posted on YouTube. But the damage was already done. The Food Network has cancelled her show. Now QVC says they're quote, "reviewing our business relationship with Miss Deen."

And plans are now settled for the funeral of actor James Gandolfini. It will be Thursday in New York. The star of HBO's "The Sopranos" died of a heart attack Wednesday in Italy. His body is expected to arrive back in the United States tomorrow. He was 51 years old.

I'm Don Lemon.