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Where is Baby Elaina?; Trial Of The Trust Fund Kid
Aired June 24, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, FBN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the state comes out swinging in the trial of George Zimmerman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George Zimmerman did not shoot Trayvon Martin because he had to. He shot him for the worst of all reasons, because he wanted to.
PINSKY: The defense with a joke.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Knock, knock, who`s there? George Zimmerman. George Zimmerman who? All right, good. You`re on the jury.
PINSKY: And baby Elaina`s mom was back in court today. What did she do that made the behavior bureau take note?
Plus, the trial of the trust fund kid. Why were two dinners ordered the night of his girlfriend gruesome death when he dined alone? Our criminal minds have something to tell you about that.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening, everybody.
My co-host is Jenny Hutt.
We`re on to baby Elaina. Her mother appeared in court today. What does she and all those around her know about this toddler who suddenly disappeared? Ton of developments in this story. We`re going to talk to Elaina`s grandfather in just a bit.
But, first, take a look at this.
ANGELA STEINFURTH, MOTHER OF MISSING BABY: I`ve been shaking for the last three days and I just want my baby home.
TERRY STEINFURTH, JR.: I arrived to pick up both of my daughters. She told me she had just laid her down for a nap and she wasn`t waking her up. Steven tried to fight my dad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Steve later comes back to the house and Angela agrees to give him the child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two minutes later, she came out the front door saying the baby was missing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Steve and I, both of us went running out the back door.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This baby was not spotted the entire day on Sunday by anyone but mommy and boyfriend.
PINSKY: Somebody knows something. There`s no doubt in my mind that somebody knows what`s going on here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right. A baby doesn`t just walk out of the house.
PINSKY: The baby`s mom behind bars for child neglect.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The baby was injured at one point.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She woke up and the baby already had a black eye, a dried blood on the nose and a bump on the head.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was aware of it., and did not seek medical attention for the baby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She would snatch my oldest daughter by her arm, drag her around, smack her in the mouth.
TERRY STEINFURTH, SR., GRANDFATHER OF MISSING BABY: Whoever has this baby, please bring her home.
PINSKY: And we now have some breaking news, Jenny. The mother, Angela Steinfurth, has been charged with obstructing justice. It`s an interesting story. It`s an intense story.
You look a little breath taken, Jenny. What do you got?
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Yes. Well, first of all, it`s super intense and insane and awful. I mean, all the conjecture. How did she have a bruise? What was wrong with her? Where is the baby?
I tell you, Dr. Drew, my almost 13-year-old daughter has any bruise, we discuss the origin of the bruise. It`s just -- the whole thing is maddening.
This is a baby, an innocent adorable little baby. How could this baby be gone?
PINSKY: And a lot of adults pointing fingers at one another. The behavior bureau is here with some thoughts about this.
Joining us: Cheryl Arutt, clinical and forensic psychologist, Blanca Cobb, senior instructor at the Body Language Institute, and Anna Kaspirian, social commentator and host of the Young Turks.
I want to go around the horn here. I`m going to start first with -- let`s start with Blanca. You`re the body language person.
What do you see in this mom?
BLANCA COBB, THE BODY LANGUAGE INSTITUTE: Today, what I noticed, it`s a very different mother than from the other day, her first day in court. Today, she`s very stoic. She`s expressionless. But if you look carefully, Dr. Drew, you`ll see that her right arm shakes just a little bit. But her attorney`s left arm is hiding it.
And when people try to control their emotions in their face, they`ll leak it somewhere else.
PINSKY: Blanca, I`m going to interrupt you. We`re looking at pictures alongside of you. I believe that is in court today. She has a lot of deep sighing. As you say, the right arm is hidden and shoulder behind the left arm and shoulder of the attorney.
Tell us, what does that mean?
COBB: Well, when you`re moving just a little bit, when you`re trying to control emotions in your face, perhaps you will release nervous energy in other parts of your body. This is what I think it could be, or maybe she`s trying to stifle some anger.
Anna Kaspirian, do you have anything to add on this case?
ANNA KASPIRIAN, HOST, "THE YOUNG TURKS": Everything just seems to incredibly suspicious. I mean, the fact that she just says that the baby disappeared from her house, that doesn`t make any sense at all. A baby, you know, as Samantha had mentioned earlier, can`t just get up and leave. The fact that she turned her ex-husband away originally and said, oh, come back later, that was suspicious.
And now, there`s news about how she allegedly admitted to a cell mate that the child was thrown against a wall and that they threw the baby into a river. Whether or not that`s true, you know, we have yet to figure that out. But, I mean, if that is the case, I just don`t understand how anyone can do that to their 18-month-old. It`s just disgusting.
PINSKY: Yes, Cheryl, it gets nauseating, but once again, it`s chaos, it`s drug abuse, it`s mental health stuff all underneath this, wouldn`t you say?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSYCHOLOGIST: I would say that, Dr. Drew. You know, we talk a lot about attachment, and the phase, the developmental phase that an 18- month-old is going through, is establishing safety. They kind of venture off of it a little bit and come back and make sure that they`re safe and connected. And when there`s violence in the home like this and a child is being abused, it`s devastating. It`s absolutely devastating to see this.
I have a feeling that the mom knew that this child had an injury, that I have a feeling that the child may have even succumbed to the injury because of how she wasn`t moving the day before. I think she panicked because she didn`t want to release the little girl.
PINSKY: Yes, I think that`s a reasonable theory. Of course, we here at HLN don`t know any of the facts. We`re all just speculating here.
ARUTT: We`re speculating, yes.
PINSKY: We can`t confirm or deny what may or may not have had.
But it is something that happens as people inadvertently hurt kids and then covered it up for themselves. However, I want you all to look at a surveillance tape from a neighbor just the day before she disappeared.
Let`s pull that up. This is her, you saw a little bit earlier.
Now, Blanca, she does not appear to -- if you guys would please run that again for us. Yes, here it goes, she does not appear to be, you know, in anything other than sort of a normal parenting mode here, would you agree?
COBB: Yes, Dr. Drew, I do agree. She`s very comfortable and loving with her baby.
But what`s really telling is that her baby is also giving us a lot of information about her comfort level with her mother during this video. Babies are 18 months old, really don`t have this extensive vocabulary. They show this distress in their bodies.
In this video, I`m not noticing any flailing arms or legs, which would be indicative of the baby not being happy. So in this particular videotape, it looks like the mom and baby are in sync.
PINSKY: However, stop right there -- can you stop the tape in the control room? Is that possible that we can hold it? Right there. Good.
Now, I want you to notice something. Cheryl, what I just saw -- this isn`t necessarily an indictment. But what I saw, you guys moved past it now. It was an earlier piece I was looking at. But what the baby did is something called 90-degree head aversion. A baby, a mom`s face is here, baby is looking this way, which is a sign that she wants the mom -- it`s an ambivalent form of attachment.
Cheryl, what do you think?
ARUTT: Dr. Drew, I think it`s really interesting that you pointed that out. And also, what I`ve noticed, the baby isn`t molding herself to the mother`s body. And 18-month-olds are really, really active. I had an opportunity to look at this tape earlier, and except for that little bit where she`s standing, this baby is like motionless. Almost like a doll, like a rag doll almost.
PINSKY: That`s not a normal activity.
Jenny, you`re dying. Jenny, go ahead.
HUTT: Yes. First of all, did you not see the mom kiss the baby? The mom walks to the door and kisses the baby. Did you see that?
HUTT: This is so strange to me, because in this video, they do look like a normal 18-month-old with a mom.
And, Dr. Drew, to your point about the baby sort of turning its head, I think an 18-month-old, like Cheryl just said, moves around.
PINSKY: They might, they might.
Sometimes a cigar is just a good smoke, we understand that. But we`re trying to get something out of what we see here and we`ve got a dead baby, or a missing baby.
HUTT: By the way, I`m sick inside. This type of thing is like the worst type of case for me to even talk about. It`s --
PINSKY: I know.
ARUTT: Parents who abuse love -- very often also love their children.
PINSKY: That`s right.
ARUTT: That`s what`s confusing and painful and complicated about this.
PINSKY: OK, I want to show you guys, the first time Angela is in court. You`re going to see her breaking down and we`re going to find, when she finds out she`s not going to go home, she`s being charged. Take a look, here she is.
Now, this is her a few days ago. I guess it was last week. She looks much more distressed here, Anna. And, again, my concern is that her biggest issue is reality is kind of coming to bear for her.
You know I mean? I don`t think it`s about the baby here.
KASPIRIAN: Yes, it certainly feels that way, just judging on her body language. I have to be completely honest. Based on the video that we saw before, I mean, as someone who`s not a body language expert, I would assume that she`s a loving mother, just based on that video.
But the one thing that I do want to ask you, Dr. Drew, is whether or not there`s a possibility that her now ex-boyfriend was really the abusive one. Maybe he was the one who threw the baby allegedly against the wall, and she was the one that was covering up for him, because there are cases like that.
PINSKY: It happens all the time. Look at the squalor that she took the baby into to be with that boy. I mean, that`s the thing.
And the grandfather, who we have coming up next, told us last week that that was a house where people were doing drugs. And there was no doubt in his mind.
There`s the squalor. There`s the footage of that. She thought it was OK to bring two children into that.
Listen, it might be OK also to defend the guy that might have done something awful or create an unsafe environment.
Jenny, don`t you agree with me on this?
HUTT: Yes, I think whole thing -- the fact that she brought the kids there meant she had an inappropriate attachment to this guy who clearly was putting them all in an unsafe environment. And something in her couldn`t stop her from going there.
HUTT: It sort of makes me think of the Susan Smith story. Obviously that was way more sinister.
PINSKY: Or --
HUTT: But there was a guy involved in that.
PINSKY: Or how about the Brooks trial? We`ll talk about that later.
Cheryl, you gave me some grief this morning about -- this evening about a double standard, but here we are. These are stories of women going after these screwball men.
ARUTT: That`s right, Dr. Drew. Fascinating and really upsetting.
PINSKY: OK, fair enough.
All right. Next up, thank you, panel. Baby Elaina`s grandfather is here, as I said. And later on, our criminal minds, both of them forensic experts, join us to solve the mystery in the murder trial of a trust fund kid, and there`s Dr. Bill Lloyd with something that we`ll find out what that all means.
Yes, stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
RICHARD SCHIEWE, ANGELA`S STEPFATHER: She`s guilty of not taking care of that baby like she should have. She should have taken the baby to the hospital after the boyfriend hurt the baby.
MARY SCHIEWE, HALF SISTER OF ANGELA STEINFURTH (via telephone): She told my dad that she was threatened, that if she was so seek any kind of medical attention to Elaina, that she would be next, whatever that meant.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt and the behavior bureau.
Listen, you guys, when you hear that story coming in, that she was threatened, you know, I was putting the onus on the young ladies that were chasing the men. But then you all of a sudden hear that she might have been trapped in what we call domestic terrorism, and very quickly you go from being angry with that woman to feeling empathy for the circumstance she got herself into.
Joining us by phone, baby Elaina`s grandfather Terry Steinfurth, Sr.
Terry, now, when you went with your son to pick up Elaina, the baby, how did her mom Angela behave, and were you suspicious?
TERRY STEINFURTH, SR., ELAINA`S GRANDFATHER (via telephone): When I first got there, she wouldn`t come out and talk to me. And after I talked to Steven`s mom and dad for a while, they didn`t talk her into coming out. She came out and she argued with me that we couldn`t have the baby because my son wouldn`t bring it back.
And I told her what goes on between my son and her is between them. I wanted to see Elaina. And she argued with me. She finally agreed to bring Elaina out to me, went in the house. Come out 15, 20 minutes later, said Elaina was gone.
PINSKY: And when she told you the baby was gone, did you at that point -- did she show emotion? Did she seem suspicious? Were you immediately sort of concerned about this?
STEINFURTH: I was concerned, and I asked her, "What do you mean Elaina`s gone?" She said, "She`s not in the house anywhere. Somebody took her."
PINSKY: And did you deal with Mr. King at that point also? Was he also evasive about this?
STEINFURTH: He jumped up when I jumped up and we both ran into the house saying, "What do you mean?" And we went in and looked for her. She wasn`t there. So I came out and I told her to call the police. And everybody else that knew her.
She just looked at me and said, why?
PINSKY: Terry, let me ask you this. Jenny, I`m going to let you guys ask him questions in a second. I want to know how things are going now. Is the search yielding any clues at all about her whereabouts?
STEINFURTH: Our searches haven`t come up with anything. We`re looking all over the neighborhoods, outside the outskirts of Toledo, anywhere where somebody might be trying to hide a baby.
PINSKY: Jenny, go ahead. Do you have a question for Terry?
HUTT: I`m just so sad for you.
PINSKY: It is so sad.
HUTT: Number one. I`m just so sad for you.
And number two, what was it about where this baby was and the circumstances that made you go to the door and made you -- I feel like you had a feeling that something was amiss, right? Even before they brought you the baby or wouldn`t bring you the baby.
STEINFURTH: My son had went over to pick up both Elaina and Kylie, the 4- year-old, and he said that he came over here, said that they had given him Kylie, but she was refusing to give him Elaina.
PINSKY: So by the time you found out about that, you knew something right, you marched over there.
Any of the panel have questions?
ARUTT: I do.
Terry, first of all, I was wondering, was there any history in the past of Steven King abusing your daughter?
PINSKY: Or concerns about your daughter and her parenting ability or -- I guess it`s your daughter-in-law.
ARUTT: And I`m also wondering -- please answer that. I`m also wondering about Kylie. Where is she? How is she doing? And is she able to communicate about anything that was happening?
STEINFURTH: As far as Steven King goes, I won`t comment on that. Everything I know is hearsay.
PINSKY: Terry, what do you mean by that?
STEINFURTH: Everything I`ve been told is hearsay. I`m not going to spread rumors about something that I don`t know is true or not.
PINSKY: So it would be accurate then to say that you had previously not been aware of any concerns and you`re hearing rumors now. Is that accurate?
PINSKY: OK. And how about your daughter? Any concerns about her?
STEINFURTH: I know she wasn`t the greatest mother. I didn`t agree with the way she treated the kids sometimes.
PINSKY: Meaning what?
STEINFURTH: Yelling at them. Jerking the 4-year-old by the arm.
PINSKY: And I will remind my panel again about that 90-degree head aversion that I saw. That is how kids behave when things are dangerous, when the parents are too aggressive.
And how about the sister? The other child, how is she doing?
STEINFURTH: She`s asking for her sister. She wants to know when her sister`s coming home. A normal 4-year-old, as I would put it. And you don`t really know what to say to her.
PINSKY: And your son has her now?
STEINFURTH: Yes, my son has custody of the 4-year-old.
PINSKY: Has there been any evidence of maltreatment of the 4-year-old?
STEINFURTH: Not that I know of.
PINSKY: Anna or Blanca, any questions?
COBB: Yes, Dr. Drew, I have a question.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Blanca.
COBB: I would like to know, in the videotape on the front porch, is that typical? Were there moments where Angela was very loving with baby Elaina, or was that atypical?
PINSKY: Let me interrupt you. The public has a bizarre conception that when people mistreat children, they mistreat them all the time. It`s usually very narrow bursts, very isolated bursts of maltreatment.
But go ahead, Terry, answer that question.
STEINFURTH: I`ve seen her hold Elaina -- I`ve seen her hold Kylie. I`ve seen her yell at them. It`s hard to really say.
PINSKY: Well, yelling at a child is -- listen, a lot of parents do it, but it`s a sign something`s up.
Anna, go ahead.
KASPIRIAN: I wanted to a quick question about the relationship between Angela and your son. I mean, obviously very strange. But was there ever any type of abuse coming from Angela`s side? Was she ever violent with him?
STEINFURTH: That I don`t know.
PINSKY: Terry, were you very -- you seem like you were not very involved - - and I`m not being critical. It just seems like you weren`t real involved in their lives until this all happened. Is that safe to say?
STEINFURTH: No, I would see my son two to three times a week. He worked third shift, so he did sleep a lot during the day. And then I`d see him in the evenings for, you know, 20 minutes, half-hour before he went to work. And I`d see the kids -- I`d see the children at the same time.
Jenny, you have a question?
HUTT: Yes, I do. Is baby Kylie asking for her mother?
STEINFURTH: That I don`t know. She hasn`t to me.
PINSKY: And I think, Terry, you were the one that said, or somebody said, that somebody knows something. You still feel that way?
STEINFURTH: Yes, I do.
PINSKY: Can you help zero that -- can you focus that a little bit? Can you tell me if you`re able to, who you think knows what?
STEINFURTH: At the time that I went over to pick up Elaina with my son, I know there were four people in the house that I know of.
STEINFURTH: Four adults that I know of. And one of those four adults has got to know who took Elaina.
PINSKY: And let me just ask this final question. Why would they hide her? What have they got to gain by not coming forward?
STEINFURTH: That I don`t know.
PINSKY: Terry, thank you very much. I really appreciate you coming on and helping us try to understand this. Again, all of our thoughts go out to you and your family, and to the little Kylie, too.
It`s a very, very sad story, no matter how you cut it. Even if this ends up being an accident, whatever it ends up being, we`ll pray that she`s OK and hiding somewhere with somebody. It`s just a tragic story.
Next up --
STEINFURTH: Thank you.
PINSKY: Thanks, Terry.
Did a murder suspect actually eat dinner while his girlfriend lay dead in a bathtub nearby?
And George Zimmerman appeared to have a hard time keeping his eyes open during opening statements.
Back after this.
PINSKY: He was lighting candles, lit the woman`s bed on fire.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She came to the Soho House that evening to get a good night`s sleep before work.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nicolas Brooks had set a fire in her apartment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She probably said something and he grabbed her neck and it became a strangulation issue.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need somebody here immediately, please. She`s not breathing, no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you look at that medical examiner`s record and the evidence is so consistent with strangling, yet you`re suggesting she drowned.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The story keeps getting more and more bizarre.
HUTT: If the guy that you`re dating is showing you pictures online of the prostitute that she`s also using, it`s time to break up with him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Brooks was a stoner. He meets Brooks in the lobby of the Soho House. They`re complete strangers. They go to a bar and start snorting coke.
PINSKY: Why would she be with him?
ARUTT: Two words, Dr. Drew -- hot sex.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt.
Jenny, you had the same theory as Cheryl. That hot sex -- go ahead.
HUTT: I just want to clarify.
PINSKY: Please do.
HUTT: Dr. Drew --
HUTT: -- it`s the hot sexual chemistry. It`s that thing when you`re next to that guy or that girl, like got to be with that person. And then sometimes it might be that the actual sex could even still be lackluster. But the need, the compulsion is so great, that even when the signs say back off, your body says I can`t. That`s the problem.
PINSKY: As we always say, Jenny, one of the things I love about this show is we learn so much about our contributors, when they offer their opinions.
So testimony from today, OK? Apparently, Jenny, I want you to listen to this. She, the victim, made Brooks write an apology letter for using prostitutes, for using escorts, and his apology wasn`t good enough.
Apparently, this was something that was divulged in court today. This is what she was contending with this guy. So my question is, is that chemistry sufficient to be dealing with all that?
HUTT: No! Of course chemistry isn`t sufficient, Dr. Drew. It`s horrible.
HUTT: It`s toxic. It`s so powerful that it takes away all reason.
PINSKY: Jenny --
HUTT: All sense of right and wrong.
PINSKY: Be careful what you say.
PINSKY: I`m with you. I`m just saying --
HUTT: I`m saying write an apology letter, how about get the -- out of my house or my apartment, using prostitutes. Come on.
PINSKY: That`s right.
It may not make us blind of what`s right and wrong, but it may make us continue to idealize the partner we are with.
Joining us, Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on Young Turks network, attorney Mark Eiglarsh from speaktomark.com, attorney Anahita Sedaghatfar, and attorney Anne Peyton Bryant. She supports Sylvie`s family and is in the court room every day.
Peyton, please give us the latest.
ANNE PEYTON BRYANT, ATTORNEY: Today, we learned not only did he have a steak for dinner and a shot of whiskey. He also ordered a second meal, which was a Cobb salad. They talked about that he really didn`t eat the meal and ordered them back to the room. We never saw Brooks walking anywhere in the hallway and they`re never found in the hotel room.
BRYANT: One thing else I found interesting that came out.
PINSKY: I`m sorry, go.
BRYANT: Something else that came out that was really interesting today is not only did he eat the meals, but they were comp because he had told the story about the apartment being burned, so he didn`t pay for those meals.
PINSKY: That`s interesting.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: So he actually ate the meals? Who eats a steak dinner after murdering their girlfriend?
PINSKY: Well, evidently, this guy did. But, Samantha, let me ask this. Couldn`t this become a defense argument then, with that exact same line of thinking?
SCHACHER: How was that a defense argument? That I met someone?
PINSKY: Like, who would be that ridiculous? Mark, who would be that diabolical as to get a comp meal served to them? Is that a defense argument or not?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Right. That is not a good one, but with a straight face you try to argue. Obviously he didn`t do this. Obviously this was a tragic accident because he was sitting there eating a meal. If he had killed her, there`s no way that he could do that.
PINSKY: See, Anahita, how good Mark is.
PINSKY: Hang on. One at a time. Anahita, go ahead.
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: You know, Mark is very good, Dr. Drew. And, I`m a defense attorney. I am a firm believer that every defendant deserves their day in court. But as if this case couldn`t get any worse. I mean, this is just looking so bad for this guy. Who does that? Who can go and have a steak dinner after --
EIGLARSH: Someone who`s innocent! Don`t you see?
SEDAGHATFAR: Dr. Drew, let me finish.
PINSKY: Wait, wait. Anahita, finish, and then, Jenny. Go.
SEDAGHATFAR: What I just -- I mean, forget about the steak dinner. OK, fine, he was hungry. But what I can`t get over is the fact that this woman was found dressed with her Rolex watch in a bathtub dead. Who does that? I mean, do you take baths with your clothes on? I don`t do that.
PINSKY: Jenny go.
JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: OK. Two things, number one, I think he ate the dinner to put himself outside of the crime scene. That`s number one. It was calculated once she was dead. Two, no one said he definitively ate the meal. What is said and what I heard Anne say was that he took the meal and that they said he took it to his room, but then the meal was never found. So, no one knows whether he ate it or he dumped it.
PINSKY: Peyton, you were in the courtroom. Any of this come up? Go ahead.
ANNE PEYTON BRYANT, ATTORNEY: That`s correct. That`s correct. No one ever saw him really do anything more than pick at the meal, and then, the boxes were never found in the room. But even more bizarre today, we found that there was a towel underneath her body in the bathtub that was found submerged. Again, it gets more bizarre.
Also, another tragic thing that came out is her dog was in the room barking loudly when they found her. And they could hear the water running from the hallway. And the water had actually dripped into four other rooms in the hotel.
PINSKY: Now, what about -- Mark, I heard there was a report of bruises reported today in court on Nicolas Brooks` hips and something they referred to as irritated knuckles. Is that going to be brought into the issue here in some way?
EIGLARSH: Yes. I was trying to figure out how that would mean in terms of positioning. To me, most significant, which he can`t explain, are the physical injuries on her. Bruising on both sides of the neck, at the base of the neck, bruising inside of the lip, at the lower eyelids as well. All pointing to one thing, and that is strangulation.
PINSKY: Well, funny you would say that, Mark, because next up, we have one of our criminal minds specialists. He says the real mystery of this case has yet to be explained.
Later on, allegations of swearing at the Zimmerman trial. We`ll tell you what might have been said to whom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST: About the size of a softball. But in this case, the lung of Sylvie was back to the regular full size and there was full of water. The water had gone down the airway that was partially crushed from the strangulation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Sylvie Cachet`s (ph) death ruled a homicide, but attorneys for alleged killer, Nicolas Brooks, says his ex-girlfriend accidentally drowned in the tub. Jenny, I know you`ll have none of it. None of that at all. Joining us, Mark Eiglarsh, Anahita Sedaghatfar. Neither of them are particularly buying that in spite of being defense attorneys. Now joining us, our criminal minds, pathologist, Dr. Bill Lloyd and CSI expert, Randolph Beasley.
Now, guys, Sylvie had fingertip size bruises on her neck, some petechiae in the conjunctiva of her eye. It`s called burst blood vessels. Inside her upper lip and lower lip was bruising. Defense says that came from an aggressive resuscitation attempt. Dr. Lloyd, she was dead for a while.
Are you going to get that kind of tissue reaction -- and by the way, certainly, when you`re resuscitating somebody, you`re not wrapping your fingers around their neck.
LLOYD: Well, both of those are very good points, Drew. And first responders can cause injury to the people they`re trying to help. Yes, you can lost a couple of teeth when they`re trying to insert an airway down a person`s throat. There can be fractures to the rib or even to the sternum from vicious CPR. But there`s a constellation of findings that we see in that situation that didn`t occur with Sylvie.
Let me explain about the eyes. When you strangle somebody and are choking them, you are inhibiting the ability of the blood to return back to the heart. So, very quickly, the blood vessels will burst under the pressure. But what`s important to know is you have to be alive in order for that to happen.
You have to have profusion pressure from the heart. It doesn`t happen if you`re dead. And if you want proof of it, Drew, you go to the supermarket, you buy yourself a roast beef, punch it a few times and see if you get any bruises.
HUTT: This is like a bad Dr. Drew theater, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: No, it`s not. It`s a good Dr. Drew theatre. Dr. Lloyd, I want you to do that again, because it was really very well-done. Give me the normal face. So we have a normal face. No, not yours. The balloon. There we go. And when you put pressure around the neck, the venous return is obstructed. You have only (INAUDIBLE) and you get hemorrhaging in the conjunctiva. That`s what happens when people regurgitate and vomit.
LLOYD: You`ve been around people that have to vomit a lot.
LLOYD: Weight lifters can have this happen.
LLOYD: All three of those people are also alive, too.
PINSKY: That`s exactly right (ph). Now, Randolph, what do you say to all this?
RANDOLPH BEASLEY, FORENSIC INVESTIGATOR: Wait, Dr. Drew, it`s just a typical thing the defense has to do. The defense either has to attack the evidence, attack the individual, the process itself, or, create some kind of other scenario. I mean, O.J. did it in the O.J. trial, right? It could have been the mafia. It could have been someone related to O.J. So, it`s conspiracy theory.
You throw a lot of things against the wall and see how much mud sticks, and hopefully, that`s what you do. But, providing another scenario is what a defense usually does.
SEDAGHATFAR: But Dr. Drew, what`s going on here -- and I agree with your guest -- is that the defense is presenting inconsistent theories. On the one hand, they want to say that the marks on her neck were due to rough sex, that he was somehow choking her during rough sex.
And now, they want to say that it was caused by people trying to revive her at the scene. I think that`s a very bad tactic to take is to present the alternative theories.
PINSKY: Hang on. My friend, Mark Eiglarsh, always told me that you just start throwing out all kinds of theories as a distraction. No?
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, yes. Well, I mean, when the case -- when the facts are looking this bad, that`s what they have to do. But jurors don`t like to see inconsistent theories like that.
EIGLARSH: Let me defend the defense lawyer. I don`t know that those theories -- by the way, I don`t agree with any of the theories they`re advancing. But to defend the defense lawyers, they`ve got to do something. I`m not suggesting that either of the theories are inconsistent. They`re probably saying we don`t know how she got exactly got those injuries.
It could have come from the resuscitation attempts. It could have come from rough sex. It could have come from somewhere else, but he didn`t do it is the argument. That`s not inconsistent. They`re throwing it all out there.
PINSKY: And, Randolph, let me ask you this. This business of the towel now. Peyton told us about a towel having been found under her in the bathtub. Does that have any meaning to you?
BEASLEY: Hard to say. Hard to say, Drew. If he`s under the influence and he`s doing things, you`re not in your right mind when you`re going to kill someone, of course, in this heat of passion. So, the towel could have been just maybe sitting on the edge of tub. I mean, who knows? A lot of things could explain that.
PINSKY: Got it. And Dr. Lloyd, how about this business of Sylvie drowning after an overdose of prescription medication? And let me just set this up by saying none of the medication she was on was addictive. None of the levels in her blood were associated with any kind of sedation. Her physician has repeatedly reported that she was an excellent patient, following exactly the doctor`s orders. What do you say?
LLOYD: Yes. I think (ph) these are mostly non-narcotic pain relievers, Lyrica and several other drugs. She was taking them for a long time. So, she had a constant level in her blood ==
PINSKY: And sort of low doses, too, by the way.
PINSKY: By the way, I just heard described as an enlightened therapy. And it was not what usually you see for pain. It is something very, very enlightening and conservative, really.
EIGLARSH: Yes. No, I go first. I want to know, Dr. Balloon, why the defendant had bruises to his hips. I couldn`t give a fair, adequate, intelligent answer to Dr. Drew. Do you have a theory as to why might have had those? How is that consistent --
LLOYD: On your way home, you rent fatal attraction. Stop by blockbuster, if they`re still in business there, and get a copy of that. You`ll be finding people banging into the tub, banging into the dresser, and there`ll be bruises everywhere. And now it`s my turn, Mark. I want to know -- this is the biggest mystery of the case. This is the biggest mystery of the case.
In a murder trial, what is the defense doing proffering all these other hypothesis, when in fact, like Randall said, all you have to do is find one strong argument to refute what the prosecutor is saying? Quit inventing stories, quit concocting things, and go after the prosecution.
EIGLARSH: First of all, the tone you would suggest that I did it.
EIGLARSH: OK. First of all, I didn`t do it. I`m not on this team, so lower your tone with me. Second, if you go with one theory, sometimes, that`s it. If they don`t buy it, you`re done. So, you`ve got to throw out a few theories sometimes and argue in the alternative. It`s a risky move, but you might pick up some other jurors when you do so.
PINSKY: I know -- Randolph, you have something to say there?
BEASLEY: Yes. I can give you an example of what happens sometimes if you don`t argue something. I had a probation officer that killed his pregnant wife, strangled her, put her in the bathtub, and they offered no defense whatsoever. They thought they were just fine arguing and cross-examining. Guess what, they lost. Second-degree murder times two. So, that gamble paid off very poorly for them.
PINSKY: And you see, Anahita and Mark, you know, it`s easy to take aim at you guys. You guys are -- thank you for being here and let us abuse defense attorneys. I appreciate you guys joining us.
SEDAGHATFAR: We`re used to it, Dr. Drew.
EIGLARSH: My pleasure.
PINSKY: Next up, why did George Zimmerman`s defense attorney begin his defense with a joke? Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George Zimmerman is not guilty of murder. He shot Trayvon Martin in self-defense after being viciously attacked.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "(EXPLETIVE DELETED) punks. These (EXPLETIVE DELETED), they always get away." Those were the words in that grown man`s mouth as he followed in the dark a 17-year-old boy who he didn`t know. And excuse my language, but those were his words, not mine. "(EXPLETIVE DELETED) punks." "These (EXPLETIVE DELETED), they always get away."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Powerful opening arguments in the George Zimmerman trial. The prosecution began with an emotional, intense remarks, while the defense, well, they started with a joke. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here`s how it goes. Knock, knock. Who`s there? George Zimmerman. George Zimmerman who? All right, good. You`re on the jury.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with us, Attorney Mark Eiglarsh and joining us, Michael Skolnik, editor-in-chief of GlobalGrind.com. He`s on the board of the Trayvon Martin Foundation. Crystal Wright from ConservativeBlackChick.com, and criminal investigator, Danine Manette, author of "Ultimate Betrayal." I don`t know who to start with here. Let me start with Michael.
EIGLARSH: Give it to me, Drew.
PINSKY: All right. Mark, go ahead. Who did a better job with opening statements? Go ahead, Mark, go.
EIGLARSH: No, no, clearly, the prosecution, but we`ve got to talk about what the defense did.
PINSKY: All right, go.
EIGLARSH: Let me just -- let me jump in. What he did by telling a joke, standing 15 feet away from Trayvon`s parents, was ineffective, inappropriate, so offensive. Don West went south when he did this. His job was to connect with the jurors, to earn credibility, and ultimately explain why his client had to shoot in self-defense.
I tell my law students on the first day of litigation skills class, number one, show up on time, number two, work hard, and number three, don`t ever tell a knock, knock joke in a murder case!
PINSKY: Michael, you were in the courtroom. Did it ring true as the way Mark is describing it?
MICHAEL SKOLNIK, EDITOR, GLOBALGRIND.COM: I mean, the knock, knock joke just fell flat on its face. And I think it`s like a football coach preparing for the Super Bowl the entire year, getting to the Super Bowl, and then fumbling on the first play. I don`t think they ever picked the ball up for the rest of the game.
I mean, Donald West was just knocked off his game from the minute the prosecution objected to his opening argument and then just didn`t recover and had to apologize for his knock knock joke after lunch because he offended a lot of people on the jury and in the courtroom.
PINSKY: Danine, you were nodding your head vigorously.
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: If i was on that jury, I would have been so offended. And I would have been offended because I would -- the way that he phrased that was, though, the only reason they were selected for the jury was because they didn`t -- they`ve never heard of George Zimmerman.
When you would think that they would have been selected by their ability to be fair and impartial jurors, by the fact that they could, you know, taking the evidence and were semi-intelligent. I would have been completely offended by that.
PINSKY: OK. We have to take a quick break. Crystal, I`ll have you respond when we get back on the other side of this commercial.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Crystal, have at it.
CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVEBLACKCHICK.COM: I actually agree with Michael. Michael, are you listening?
PINSKY: Hold on a second. Hold on a second! Let`s remember this moment, because this may not happen again.
WRIGHT: Remember it! No, Michael is right. Mark is right. But more importantly, going to michael, I mean, Don West looked like a bungling buffoon, an idot. It was in the poorest of taste to tell a knock, knock joke and it was an epic fail. And frankly, he and his client look like they`re on, I don`t know, anti-depressant medication.
I want to say, Don West, what if anything, you know, what if -- what does - - he belittles the jury. But I think what he was trying to do, and it didn`t -- it smacked him back in the face, he was trying to say, OK, you guys got on the jury because you didn`t know George Zimmerman, so we`re assuming you`re impartial. You know, there`s objectivity (ph) here. I just thought it was awful.
And you know what else? One final thing. This reminds me of the Nixon- Kennedy debate. You have Mr. Guy who`s young and vibrant, a little too emotional, and we go Don West. He needs makeup. He needs -- oh gosh, he needs so many jobs --
PINSKY: Well, you mentioned, Crystal, the Zimmerman being on medication. He actually seemed to doze off in court today. I think he had -- if we show that footage maybe while I`m talking about it, I think he may have sleep apnea from all the weight he has gained. It was during the opening arguments, he had trouble keeping his eyes open.
He looks like he`s really dozing off. Also, we have one of Zimmerman`s friends on the stand saying Trayvon`s father, cursed at him. I`m going to show you this, then I want to understand why they wasted time with that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, what you`re telling us that Mr. Martin, all of a sudden, just under his breath, used the word -- the language you used, the profanity use MF?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir. That`s what I believe I heard.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s what you believe you heard. So, you`re not sure you heard that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I heard it under his breath.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And now, Michael, given that you were in court today, and of course, you were speaking on behalf of Crystal from now on, what was that all about?
SKOLNIK: I mean, I was sitting with the (INAUDIBLE). I was sitting two people away from Tracy. We were dumbfounded by this. This was a circus. This was a sideshow. The fact that Mark O`Mara was standing in front of this judge and say get ready and kick out Tracy and Sabrina out of the courtroom is despicable and a low blow.
This is not true. It did not happen. For them to go this guy on the stand to say I think, maybe this happened, I thought, he had his head down, he may have said the word, well, it was just not appropriate for this day in court, for the first day in court.
PINSKY: Danine, you have a comment?
MANETTE: This is just a big distraction. It seems like they`re just trying to throw all this other stuff into the mix to try and make it seem like Trayvon came from, you know, some hostile family or whatever. All of this is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with anything because George Zimmerman didn`t know his family at the time he murdered him.
PINSKY: That`s kind of what I was thinking. Crystal, I`ll give you 20 seconds, last remarks.
WRIGHT: Yes. And I think real quick, real quick, the prosecution won today, although, they had an emotional argument. I think Mr. Guy needs to tone down the Darth Vader kind of stuff because it`s distracting to his story. And then, we had Don West pull out maps and was very sterile argument. And he has no forensic evidence is what it`s looking like. So - -
PINSKY: Thank you, guys. More --
EIGLARSH: Like he was selling timeshare.
PINSKY: We`ll keep watching this. "Last Call" is next.
PINSKY: Thank you, Jenny. Really great show. Thank you for being part of this, and it`s been very busy and we`re out of time. Thank you all for watching. Thank those of you who contributed tonight. We`ll see you next time, and, "HLN After Dark" begins right now.