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Baby Elaina`s Mom in Court Today; George Zimmerman Trial; Letter from Suspect To Victim
Aired June 25, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, do we finally know what happened to baby Elaina? Does her own mother think she`s dead? Someone has the answer to those questions.
Plus, did these hands savagely strangle a young fashion designer and drown her in the bathtub? Will the raw evidence put the accused killer away forever? Our criminal minds are here to tell us.
And who is the real George Zimmerman?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wanted to recruit him to be a citizen on patrol volunteer at the Sanford Police Department, but he said no.
PINSKY: Let`s get started.
PINSKY: Good evening, everybody.
My co-host is Jenny Hutt.
We`re on to baby Elaina. Her mother appeared in court today. What does she and all those around her know about this toddler who suddenly disappeared? Ton of developments in this story. We`re going to talk to Elaina`s grandfather in just a bit.
But, first, take a look at this.
ANGELA STEINFURTH, MOTHER OF MISSING BABY: I`ve been shaking for the last three days and I just want my baby home.
TERRY STEINFURTH, JR.: I arrived to pick up both of my daughters. She told me she had just laid her down for a nap and she wasn`t waking her up. Steven tried to fight my dad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Steve later comes back to the house and Angela agrees to give him the child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two minutes later, she came out the front door saying the baby was missing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Steve and I, both of us went running out the back door.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This baby was not spotted the entire day on Sunday by anyone but mommy and boyfriend.
PINSKY: Somebody knows something. There`s no doubt in my mind that somebody knows what`s going on here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right. A baby doesn`t just walk out of the house.
PINSKY: The baby`s mom behind bars for child neglect.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The baby was injured at one point.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She woke up and the baby already had a black eye, a dried blood on the nose and a bump on the head.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was aware of it., and did not seek medical attention for the baby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She would snatch my oldest daughter by her arm, drag her around, smack her in the mouth.
TERRY STEINFURTH, SR., GRANDFATHER OF MISSING BABY: Whoever has this baby, please bring her home.
PINSKY: And we now have some breaking news, Jenny. The mother, Angela Steinfurth, has been charged with obstructing justice. It`s an interesting story. It`s an intense story.
You look a little breath taken, Jenny. What do you got?
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Yes. Well, first of all, it`s super intense and insane and awful. I mean, all the conjecture. How did she have a bruise? What was wrong with her? Where is the baby?
I tell you, Dr. Drew, my almost 13-year-old daughter has any bruise, we discuss the origin of the bruise. It`s just -- the whole thing is maddening.
This is a baby, an innocent adorable little baby. How could this baby be gone?
PINSKY: And a lot of adults pointing fingers at one another. The behavior bureau is here with some thoughts about this.
Joining us: Cheryl Arutt, clinical and forensic psychologist, Blanca Cobb, senior instructor at the Body Language Institute, and Anna Kaspirian, social commentator and host of the Young Turks.
I want to go around the horn here. I`m going to start first with -- let`s start with Blanca. You`re the body language person.
What do you see in this mom?
BLANCA COBB, THE BODY LANGUAGE INSTITUTE: Today, what I noticed, it`s a very different mother than from the other day, her first day in court. Today, she`s very stoic. She`s expressionless.
But if you look carefully, Dr. Drew, you`ll see that her right arm shakes just a little bit. But her attorney`s left arm is hiding it.
And when people try to control their emotions in their face, they`ll leak it somewhere else.
PINSKY: Blanca, I`m going to interrupt you. We`re looking at pictures alongside of you. I believe that is in court today. She has a lot of deep sighing. As you say, the right arm is hidden and shoulder behind the left arm and shoulder of the attorney.
Tell us, what does that mean?
COBB: Well, when you`re moving just a little bit, when you`re trying to control emotions in your face, perhaps you will release nervous energy in other parts of your body. This is what I think it could be, or maybe she`s trying to stifle some anger.
Anna Kaspirian, do you have anything to add on this case?
ANNA KASPIRIAN, HOST, "THE YOUNG TURKS": Everything just seems to incredibly suspicious. I mean, the fact that she just says that the baby disappeared from her house, that doesn`t make any sense at all. A baby, you know, as Samantha had mentioned earlier, can`t just get up and leave. The fact that she turned her ex-husband away originally and said, oh, come back later, that was suspicious.
And now, there`s news about how she allegedly admitted to a cell mate that the child was thrown against a wall and that they threw the baby into a river. Whether or not that`s true, you know, we have yet to figure that out. But, I mean, if that is the case, I just don`t understand how anyone can do that to their 18-month-old. It`s just disgusting.
PINSKY: Yes, Cheryl, it gets nauseating, but once again, it`s chaos, it`s drug abuse, it`s mental health stuff all underneath this, wouldn`t you say?
CHERYL ARUTT, PSYCHOLOGIST: I would say that, Dr. Drew. You know, we talk a lot about attachment, and the phase, the developmental phase that an 18- month-old is going through, is establishing safety. They kind of venture off of it a little bit and come back and make sure that they`re safe and connected. And when there`s violence in the home like this and a child is being abused, it`s devastating. It`s absolutely devastating to see this.
I have a feeling that the mom knew that this child had an injury, that I have a feeling that the child may have even succumbed to the injury because of how she wasn`t moving the day before. I think she panicked because she didn`t want to release the little girl.
PINSKY: Yes, I think that`s a reasonable theory. Of course, we here at HLN don`t know any of the facts. We`re all just speculating here.
ARUTT: We`re speculating, yes.
PINSKY: We can`t confirm or deny what may or may not have happened.
But it is something that happens as people inadvertently hurt kids and then covered it up for themselves. However, I want you all to look at a surveillance tape from a neighbor just the day before she disappeared.
Let`s pull that up. This is her, you saw a little bit earlier.
Now, Blanca, she does not appear to -- if you guys would please run that again for us. Yes, here it goes, she does not appear to be, you know, in anything other than sort of a normal parenting mode here, would you agree?
COBB: Yes, Dr. Drew, I do agree. She`s very comfortable and loving with her baby.
But what`s really telling is that her baby is also giving us a lot of information about her comfort level with her mother during this video. Babies are 18 months old, really don`t have this extensive vocabulary. They show this distress in their bodies.
In this video, I`m not noticing any flailing arms or legs, which would be indicative of the baby not being happy. So in this particular videotape, it looks like the mom and baby are in sync.
PINSKY: However, stop right there -- can you stop the tape in the control room? Is that possible that we can hold it? Right there. Good.
Now, I want you to notice something. Cheryl, what I just saw -- this isn`t necessarily an indictment. But what I saw, you guys moved past it now. It was an earlier piece I was looking at. But what the baby did is something called 90-degree head aversion. A baby, a mom`s face is here, baby is looking this way, which is a sign that she wants the mom -- it`s an ambivalent form of attachment.
Cheryl, what do you think?
ARUTT: Dr. Drew, I think it`s really interesting that you pointed that out. And also, what I`ve noticed, the baby isn`t molding herself to the mother`s body. And 18-month-olds are really, really active. I had an opportunity to look at this tape earlier, and except for that little bit where she`s standing, this baby is like motionless. Almost like a doll, like a rag doll almost.
PINSKY: That`s not a normal activity.
Jenny, you`re dying. Jenny, go ahead.
HUTT: Yes. First of all, did you not see the mom kiss the baby? The mom walks to the door and kisses the baby. Did you see that?
HUTT: This is so strange to me, because in this video, they do look like a normal 18-month-old with a mom.
And, Dr. Drew, to your point about the baby sort of turning its head, I think an 18-month-old, like Cheryl just said, moves around.
PINSKY: They might, they might.
Sometimes a cigar is just a good smoke, we understand that. But we`re trying to get something out of what we see here and we`ve got a dead baby, or a missing baby.
HUTT: By the way, I`m sick inside. This type of thing is like the worst type of case for me to even talk about. It`s --
PINSKY: I know.
ARUTT: Parents who abuse love -- very often also love their children.
PINSKY: That`s right.
ARUTT: That`s what`s confusing and painful and complicated about this.
PINSKY: OK, I want to show you guys, the first time Angela is in court. You`re going to see her breaking down and we`re going to find, when she finds out she`s not going to go home, she`s being charged. Take a look, here she is.
Now, this is her a few days ago. I guess it was last week. She looks much more distressed here, Anna. And, again, my concern is that her biggest issue is reality is kind of coming to bear for her.
You know I mean? I don`t think it`s about the baby here.
KASPIRIAN: Yes, it certainly feels that way, just judging on her body language. I have to be completely honest. Based on the video that we saw before, I mean, as someone who`s not a body language expert, I would assume that she`s a loving mother, just based on that video.
But the one thing that I do want to ask you, Dr. Drew, is whether or not there`s a possibility that her now ex-boyfriend was really the abusive one. Maybe he was the one who threw the baby allegedly against the wall, and she was the one that was covering up for him, because there are cases like that.
PINSKY: Of course, it happens all the time. Look at the squalor that she took the baby into to be with that boy. I mean, that`s the thing.
And the grandfather, who we have coming up next, told us last week that that was a house where people were doing drugs. And there was no doubt in his mind.
There`s the squalor. There`s the footage of that. She thought it was OK to bring two children into that.
Listen, it might be OK also to defend the guy that might have done something awful or create an unsafe environment.
Jenny, don`t you agree with me on this?
HUTT: Yes, I think whole thing -- the fact that she brought the kids there meant she had an inappropriate attachment to this guy who clearly was putting them all in an unsafe environment. And something in her couldn`t stop her from going there.
HUTT: It sort of makes me think of the Susan Smith story. Obviously that was way more sinister.
PINSKY: Or --
HUTT: But there was a guy involved in that.
PINSKY: Or how about the Brooks trial? We`ll talk about that later.
Cheryl, you gave me some grief this morning about -- this evening about a double standard, but here we are. These are stories of women going after these screwball men.
ARUTT: That`s right, Dr. Drew. Fascinating and really upsetting.
PINSKY: Next up, dramatic testimony from the police sergeant who tried to save Trayvon Martin`s life.
And later, take a look at these hands. Are they the murder weapon? Look at those middle knuckles there. Look at that. We`ll talk about that with our CSI experts.
Back after this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hear anything when you were performing CPR on Trayvon Martin?
POLICE OFFICER: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was that?
POLICE OFFICER: Bubbling sounds, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what did those bubbling sounds indicate to you?
POLICE OFFICER: It meant that either air was getting into or escaping from the chest of the manner it was not supposed to, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what did you do upon hearing those bubbling sounds from Trayvon Martin`s chest?
POLICE OFFICER: I called out to the crowd that was gathering nearby, and I asked for saran wrap and Vaseline, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what would be the purpose of saran wrap and Vaseline?
POLICE OFFICER: I was going to try to seal the chest wound, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And was Trayvon Martin pronounced dead by rescue at the scene?
POLICE OFFICER: Yes, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt. To comment on the segment we had just seen. Baby Elaina`s aunt made a lot of allegations. We here at CNN and HLN cannot confirm nor deny them. We`re asking members of the family involved for a response from their side.
Now, you just heard in that tape a sergeant who first responded to the scene Trayvon Martin was killed -- the night he was killed. This man tried valiantly to resuscitate Martin.
Joining us tonight: attorney Mark Eiglarsh from speaktomark.com, attorney and television judge Lauren Lake, Crystal Wright from conservativeblackchick.com, and Trent Copeland, criminal defense attorney.
Mark, any thoughts on the impact of the officer`s testimony we just heard?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Yes. It was extraordinarily compelling, emotional testimony. And the good news is that here in Florida and most places around the country, there`s a standard jury instruction where jurors are told, don`t let emotion guide your decision. Don`t decide this case because you`re angry or you feel sorry for someone.
But the reality is, these aren`t robots. They are six women. And I`m not going to say women are more emotional or more sympathetic or compassionate than men. I would just tell you that a woman recently told me that and I don`t disagree with her.
So, this was extraordinary positive testimony for the prosecution. There we go.
PINSKY: All right. There you go.
So, some of the images presented as evidence at the trial are quite graphic. This is a warning. They include Trayvon Martin dead on the ground.
I want to give you this warning. We are showing difficult material. It may not be appropriate for all viewers.
Lauren, the photo of Trayvon lying there on the ground, did you have a personal reaction to that?
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: I did. I did, Dr. Drew. It really affected me today.
And, you know, I do this a lot. And I can usually remain very analytical. But seeing this young man laying face down on the ground, of this seemingly middle class area, it just brought to mind so many thoughts of how my parents worked their behinds off to give me a good life to live in a neighborhood where I could go to the store and get iced tea, and they didn`t have to worry about whether I`d make it back or whether I`d be perceived as some type of criminal.
And when I saw this young man, he looks like my nephew`s age. And he wears his hoodie up after baseball practice. Or it would be my son who`s two years old now. It overwhelmed me.
And honestly, it has been flashing in my mind this entire day. I cannot stop thinking about it.
PINSKY: Trent, you and I talked about this case back when it first became public knowledge. How are you reacting to the trial as it`s unfolding now?
TRENT COPELAND, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Look. First after all, I think that those pictures -- Trayvon Martin lying face down like that on the ground is going to have a visible reaction to anybody. You can`t have a heart beat and not look at those pictures and feel something.
But look, I have to say this as well. From the defense perspective, if it was going to come out. If those photos had to be shown and they have to be shown in every murder trial, it`s great for had the defense they came out now. The reason for that is this trial is going to go on, on some weeks, perhaps even maybe a month. I don`t expect it would be much longer than that.
But the truth is, you got to get those photos out. You want this jury to see them and to move on from them. You want this jury to simply say, look, we understand this. These are tragic pictures, tragic photos, tragic event. But you want them to move on from this.
I`d also say from the prosecution`s perspective, I think they had a reasonably good day but I think the defense might have had a better day.
PINSKY: Crystal, I`ll let you follow onto that because yesterday you have some -- A, I saw you sighing just now. I wonder what that was all about. And B, you had harsh words for the defense yesterday.
CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVEBLACKCHICK.COM: Well, I disagree with Trent. I`m going to agree with me and everybody else that as a woman, to Mark`s point, we are nurturers and emotional. Many of the women on the jury I would imagine have children or are involved with a child in their life, maybe an aunt. But what`s disturbing about today is the grisly haunting, emotional level of testimony.
And the fact we saw Trayvon Martin -- you can`t even -- if you don`t have a heartbeat, then I guess these wouldn`t bother you. You have images of his chest wound. And frankly the testimony of the sergeant who looked like he was about to cry was just stunning. But this goes back -- so I think it was -- I don`t know how Trent can say that it was a great day for the defense. I think these images will be seared in the jurors` minds.
But more important for me --
EIGLARSH: Drew --
WRIGHT: -- the totality of evidence is --
PINSKY: You guys --
WRIGHT: Yes, but the totality of evidence is really an opportunity for the American people and jurors to see this case that`s not poisoned by racially charged media coverage.
PINSKY: I have to go to break right now. I think Trent`s point was, though, getting this out of the way and the emotion at the beginning rather than the end might be better for defense.
And I also think he was referring to something that we`re about to talk about, which was, was Zimmerman properly trained to be part of the neighborhood watch? There`s testimony in court today that was for the prosecution that may have worked for the defense.
And later, did these hands -- put them up there -- did these hands -- look at those third knuckles. Did he drown a young swim suit designer? We`ll show you the evidence. Our CSI panel is here after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH: He`s got something in his hands. I don`t know what his deal is.
DISPATCHER: Are you following him?
DISPATCHER: OK, we don`t need you do that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If someone is acting suspicious, you call 911 or non- emergency dispatch.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you tell him new anything else at that point?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Since day one, the neighborhood watch, he said at that meeting and said every meeting we had after that, do not get close to anybody. Stay a safe distance. And call 911. And let the police handle it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt. Witnesses today testified about George Zimmerman`s training and willingness to be a neighborhood watch guard.
Mark, did these state witnesses help the defense. And if so, how?
EIGLARSH: There`s one way that I can clearly articulate how they helped. There was a burglary and a rash of burglaries, a number of them. But one in particular that involved a mother who had a young child and it occurred during the middle of the day in that community.
And when we had a meeting of all the people who wanted to volunteer for neighborhood watch, the witness testified that this woman was still terrorized. She still felt completely uncomfortable and at fear. And it happened very recently.
So that creates kind of in the mind of these six women jurors that in that community, there was an energy and an environment of fear because of a rash of burglaries. And that George Zimmerman was helping the community.
PINSKY: Jenny, you wanted to comment in that last block. What you got?
HUTT: Yes. It`s just that looking at that picture of Trayvon Martin lying in the grass dead, he`s a 17-year-old little boy. To me as a mother of a 14-year-old, for me the race issue kind of disappears with that picture.
I just see a boy, Dr. Drew. I think five of the six jurors are mothers. I find it impossible that they`re not going to react emotionally.
PINSKY: Show that picture there if people missed it in the last block. It`s just a young boy. It could be anybody`s family member.
Now, the defense cross-examined Diana Smith, crime scene technician, about the DNA on George Zimmerman`s gun. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DIANA SMITH, CRIME SCENE TECHNICIAN: I processed the grip which is on the backside, the trigger, and the back part of the slide here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From a forensic standpoint, it`s entirely possible that someone -- well, first of all, someone could touch something and not leave enough skin cells behind for there to be any DNA analysis possible.
SMITH: That is correct.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, Trent, you were saying that you thought this was a good day for the defense. What did you mean by that?
COPELAND: Well, look, I think it`s a good day for the defense for a number of reasons. The first of which is, look, I don`t think there`s been any testimony -- we haven`t a heard it yet. I don`t know whether or not George Zimmerman said in the earlier statements as to whether or not Trayvon Martin touched the gun. What he did say is that Trayvon Martin reached for the gun.
So, the reality is that there may not be that there`s any DNA to be found in the gun because he never physically touched it. But look, if it can be interpreted -- and I think some people will interpret it to mean that Trayvon reached for the gun and touched the gun. And the fact that there`s no DNA on that gun suggested George Zimmerman isn`t telling the truth.
But the reality is, look, Trayvon Martin laid in that grass for at least 10 to 15 minutes before his body was removed. It was raining. DNA can be removed. DNA can run off of that gun and hands. I think that was demonstrated.
The fact the police did not test for blood residue that could have been on that bloody sidewalk. They could have done it. There`s a chemical called luminol that you could use. It`s commonly use in murder cases.
The fact that they didn`t do it I think also suggests -- and I think the defense is going to take something out of the playbook of most defense lawyers. That is they`re going to begin to claim there are some shoddy police work.
So, look, I don`t defend George Zimmerman. I`m not saying that. But what I am saying is that from a defense perspective, every case has to have a prosecutor and defense. I think the defense in this instance is certainly making some points.
I think today -- remember, the prosecution case, it`s supposed to look good for the prosecution right now. We`re not in the defense`s case right now. If you can survive as a defense lawyer, you can survive as a defendant in this sort of case, this is the opportunity to do so. If you cannot take the knockout blow, then it works.
PINSKY: Crystal, looking at your crystal ball, what`s the rest of the week hold, you think?
WRIGHT: I think it`s hard to predict what the rest of the week holds. But I think it`s going to be very hard for George Zimmerman`s lawyers to get out evidence that in the back of the jurors` minds isn`t tainted with the onslaught of media coverage we saw last year and into this year that George Zimmerman is a racist.
And I still believe even though in the opening statements by Mr. West when he did the awful knock-knock joke, he was trying to imply you made it on the jury because you`re impartial, right? But I think what is going to be hard at the end of the day is to overcome this racially charged, you know, coverage.
PINSKY: Thank you, guys.
Next up, we have the apology letter Nicholas Brooks sent to the woman he`s accused of having murdered. Behavior bureau is back to discuss.
And later, will this photograph of his hands effect his fate? Stay with us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up at the top of the hour on "HLN AFTER DARK," we`re going to take you back to the scene of the shooting. This is our recreated shooting scene. This demonstrates the T-sidewalk where this confrontation took place.
But the question is, was George Zimmerman following Trayvon Martin? Our bold question for our in-studio jury tonight: Did Zimmerman deceive police about following Trayvon Martin? We`ll have a verdict at the end of the program.
That`s "HLN AFTER DARK", coming up top of the hour.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Sylvie Cachay`s death ruled a homicide.
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: This woman was found dressed with her Rolex watch in a bathtub dead.
PINSKY: But attorneys for alleged killer, Nicholas Brooks, says his ex- girlfriend accidentally drowned in the tub. There was a report of bruises reported today in court on Nicholas Brooks` hips and something they referred to as irritated knuckles.
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: All pointing to one thing and that is strangulation.
SEDAGHATFAR: As if this case couldn`t get any worse.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Who eats a steak dinner after murdering their girlfriend?
ANNE PEYTON BRYANT, ATTORNEY: Not only did he eat the meals, but they were capped (ph), because he had told the story about the apartment being burned.
EIGLARSH: Obviously, he didn`t do this. Obviously, this was a tragic accident because he was sitting there eating a meal. If he had killed her, there`s no way that he could do that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But even more bizarre today --
PINSKY: She, the victim, made Brooks write an apology letter for using prostitutes, for using escorts. And his apology wasn`t good enough.
HUTT: How about get the -- out of my house or my apartment. Using prostitutes.
PINSKY: We are going to show you that apology letter in just a second. Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt and the behavior bureau, Wendy Walsh, Patti Wood, and Samantha Schacher.
Here is the letter Sylvie Cachay reportedly forced Nicholas Brooks to write when she learned he was visiting prostitutes. He`s now on trial for murder.
The letter reads in part, there it is in front of you, his handwriting, "Dear Silvie, I am so sorry that I showed you my past on the e-mail the other night. I wasn`t thinking how that would affect you. I hope you can believe me when I say that you are so smart, beautiful, and funny. I don`t think about anyone else but you. I hope this letter can give you some closure to this topic."
Jenny, did she tell him to get out of the house after that? Or did she say, come on, let`s go back home and light some candles and burn my bed down?
HUTT: Listen, I think she was in too deep, obviously, Dr. Drew. But it shouldn`t have killed her. I mean, he`s the one that`s in the wrong. I can`t blame the victim. I just can`t. However, this was not a healthy relationship. Not even kind of.
PINSKY: We have established that, my dear. I think we`ve got that far we`ve gotten conclusive evidence of. Attorney Anne Peyton Bryant supports Sylvie`s family and is our courtroom insider. Peyton, can you give us the latest?
BRYANT: Yes. Today, we finally heard from the medical examiner. We`ve all been waiting for this witness. We learned that the cause of Sylvie`s death was strangulation and forced drowning. Without question, Dr. Drew, Sylvie was breathing when she was submerged in the tub and very likely to have suffered horribly. We also learned that this whole theory that she fell and tripped that evening is completely bunked.
There was nothing on her body that it would all indicate scratches, scrapes, bruises, that she ever fell at any time during that evening. Also, going back to yesterday, there were these two socks that were found soaking wet way on the other side of the room. And the DNA in those socks inside was Sylvi`s DNA but outside was the defendant`s DNA which leads one to conclude that he may have pulled the socks off when he submerged her in the tub.
PINSKY: Pattie, you looked at some of the testimony of Brook`s behavior after his arrest. I wonder if you have a reaction or some input for us.
PATTI WOOD, BEHAVIOR EXPERT: There`s a couple of different things that I think are remarkable. What`s striking, obviously, is that he went in and he fell asleep first at the interrogation table and then for several hours and then came back and was questioned. Obviously, I want to know from you about the drugs or alcohol possibility that might have affected him.
But when you look at that -- the tape, the surveillance tape, he was so agitated. He was pacing back and forth. The fact that a few hours later he could go back and he could sleep before he knew he would be questioned is amazing to me. I teach interviews in interrogation techniques. It`s very unusual for somebody about to be questioned in a possible homicide to fall asleep.
Also, he was only interviewed for 30 minutes. To me, there`s something that`s interesting about that. But he did make eye contact throughout the interview, and he didn`t ask for any of the questions to be repeated. I teach, again, interrogation techniques. That`s unusual. Usually, when somebody is in this agitated state or sleeping, all these things, they ask the questions to be repeated.
They`re unclear. They don`t make eye contact. That`s interesting to me. When did he -- when did he suddenly gain confidence?
PINSKY: Yes. Wendy, I wonder if it`s liquid courage. He had some alcohol on board and he had a little bit of a sociopathic tendency and felt little grandiose and entitled. What do you think?
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., AUTHOR, "30-DAY LOVE DETOX": I agree with you. And I think that, you know, he was probably working very hard to make it clear that he was going to have that eye contact. He was going to appear alert. But, you know, Dr. Drew, remember, some people under stress do fall asleep alcohol aside because of the stress of the situation, too, and they suddenly can black out.
So, that might have played a part of it. But how interesting that Sylvie asked him to write that apology letter. So many women in America, Dr. Drew, they want to change the bad boy. This is not uncommon. And they get self-esteem from making him do these little acts like somehow they`re winning this game.
PINSKY: Yes. Listen --
BRYANT: Can I talk -- you know, Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Wait, Patti, really quick -- Patti.
WOOD: I want to talk a little bit about the content analysis of that apology letter. He says I hope twice. And I know from content analysis that obviously weakens the message. But specifically, he says I hope you can believe me when I say. And in deception detection, that`s a really big tell that the statement following that is deceit, is a lie.
PINSKY: I`m used to my patients talking like that. Peyton, what did you want to say?
BRYANT: You know, his courtroom demeanor also shows quite a bit of bravado. You know, he`s taking vigorous notes throughout the trial. And I noticed on some of the first few days, he would tap his pen so loudly you could literally hear it in the audience. He looks down a lot.
And then, really notably, he doesn`t wear socks every single day. And I think that`s because of the wet socks that were found on the other side of the room. And there`s some bit of connection there.
PINSKY: I don`t know. Samantha, want to finish this up? Go.
SCHACHER: Yes. I just hate hearing the fact that he was talking in the courtroom. I hope Nicholas Brooks listened real hard today when the medical examiner stated that Sylvie Cachay died from strangulation and drowning. And good luck Nicholas Brooks, because you`re going to spend a long time in jail. No one is buying your defense.
PINSKY: I think part of that socklessness is part of the bravado as well.
Got a question or comment for the behavior bureau? Tweet us us @DRDREWHLN/BehaviorBureau.
Next, jurors saw this photo, and we will be showing -- there we are. We are showing it to you. Are these the hands of a killer? Our criminal minds review the evidence. Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST: When you strangle somebody and are choking them, you are inhibiting the ability of the blood to return back to the heart. So, very quickly, the blood vessels will burst under the pressure. But what`s important to know is you have to be alive in order for that to happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my cohost Jenny Hutt, Samantha Schacher, Mark Eiglarsh still with us, and joining us, our criminal minds, pathologist, Dr. Bill Lloyd, and CSI expert, Randolph Beasley.
The defense says Sylvie Cachay`s death was an accident, that aggressive cardiopulmonary resuscitation caused the marks on her body. The medical examiner today consistent with what our own Bill Lloyd was saying says she was strangled. And we now have photos of Nicholas Brooks` hands following his arrest.
There they are. I don`t know if you can see it as clearly as I can, but on his third knuckle there`s a lot of bruising and trauma. So, we got a lot to talk about it here. First of all, Dr. Lloyd, what do you see on this man`s hands?
LLOYD: Yes. Let`s keep those pictures up there, Drew. You look at the knuckles two, three, and four in both hands. Not just the proximal knuckles close to the hand but going down towards the tip to the fingers, there are multiple contact points, and they`re symmetric with both hands, consistent with the strangulation of someone who`s holding somebody by the neck, and perhaps, banging them back up against a headboard.
Remember, the bathtub was in the bedroom in that ritzy hotel. And Drew, this is why professional hit men wear leather gloves. It`s not so much about protecting them from fingerprints. It`s they`re going to limit the amount of damage that they`re going to cause to their own hands while at the same time not causing imprints from their jewelry to be found, and perhaps, convict them for an attempted murder. I think we`re looking at the signed confession through Nicholas` hands.
PINSKY: Dr. Lloyd, you gave me a little chill there about how much you know about the use of gloves for the conduct of crime. What about the -- the idea I had because it`s mostly this knuckle right here, the third knuckle, which is the one that protrudes the most. It`s not the one that you would get struck if you hit somebody.
That`s more on the lateral side. But what about them being hit on the side of the bathtub as he tried to throw the body into the tub or something?
LLOYD: The fact that you have multiple contact points means that his hands had created a platform. His hands were exposing all of those different knuckles at the same time. So, whether it was against the back of the tub or the back of the headboard remains to be seen. We`re going to hear a lot more evidence about the clues.
But i want Randolph to tell me did he think that the woman succumbed in the bed, perhaps, at the headboard and was dragged to the tub or did he think it was all nice and tidy and everything happened in the bathtub?
RANDOLPH BEASLEY, FORENSIC INVESTIGATOR: Most of the time, it`s never nice and tidy as you know from a crime scene. Things happen. Things go wrong. I think that she was probably strangled unconscious in a different area, maybe the bed, the headboard, that certainly fit the area of what the knuckles, of course, fists.
And then, she was alive when he put her in the water to drown her. And so, you know, that happens. And what`s interesting about this case is I went to my niece here in Phoenix. So, (INAUDIBLE). I borrowed a doll to kind of demonstrate this like you would do in court, maybe not with this doll, but there`s a new Barbie doll, Barbie with the Y (ph), maybe you`ve seen the new Barbie doll. It`s called accident prone Barbie?
SCHACHER: Oh, my God.
HUTT: Oh, goodness.
BEASLEY: Hang on, hang on. OK. Just a broken arm. You`ve got the black eye. You have the bruises on the neck as you can see from accident prone Barbie, and here`s the problems with this.
PINSKY: Finish up. I want to hear it. I want to hear your theory. Wait, wait, let`s hear him out. Go ahead. Oh, wait.
BEASLEY: Here you have dope addict psycho boyfriend, and psycho boyfriend is strangling accident prone Barbie. Now --
EIGLARSH: My children watch this show.
BEASLEY: I know.
PINSKY: Hang on, everybody. I need to hear him out. Stop it! Please, finish up. I want to hear your theory.
BEASLEY: When you have hundreds of homicides and you deal with the tragedy of it, you try to at least a little bit divert a little with a bit of humor. But going back to the evidence on this, Dr. Drew and Jenny, especially Jenny. OK? My wife said you`re treading on thin ice on this. But here`s the point. The point is it`s not often -- it`s often rather what you don`t see that can effect a defense even more so than what you do see.
The fact that he does have those injuries, not abrasions but the irritation on his knuckles is consistent with some type of an activity whether it`s hitting against a headboard or her with her hands trying to grab his hands off of him. That`s what`s consistent. You --
EIGLARSH: Drew, I have a question.
PINSKY: Mark, your question. Go.
EIGLARSH: Yes. I have a question for Dr. Big Balloon or as he`s known affectionately here in Miami, Dr. Grand Globo (ph). What explanations can you give for the damage to the knuckle, the injury, that is consistent with what the defense is alleging? In other words, obviously, on cross examination, they`re going to say, all right, yes, you think this is strangulation, but obviously, it could have come from other sources. What could you help us understand is the source other than strangulation?
LLOYD: He could have also tripped and fall. He was drinking a lot, he was snorting a lot of coke. People do things and they don`t remember doing them. The next day they wake up with all kinds of cuts and bruises and say, hey, I wonder how that happened. Oh, my gosh, my girlfriend`s dead. It all goes together.
PINSKY: Samantha, what`s your theory?
SCHACHER: You know what, Dr. Drew? It`s just -- I mean, I`m looking at my theory. I`m looking at the weapon. His bare hands. And what an animal to kill your girlfriend with your own bare hands. You`re sleeping with the enemy. It`s disgusting.
PINSKY: Jenny, finish us up.
HUTT: Yes. Well, first of all, I think the whole doll scenario is just very disturbing to me. But the whole thing is disturbing to me. And I do think that he strangled her. And whether or not she`s dead at that time is unclear to me. However, I think the bruises come from both the strangulation impact on his hand and additionally the banging into the tub as he drags the body and then submerged it.
PINSKY: That`s my -- Jenny, I agree with you 100 percent. I think that`s, in fact, what probably happened.
Next up, Dr. Lloyd has a bone to pick with our panel. Back after this with his Bs (ph).
PINSKY: Welcome back. We`ve been discussing the trust fund kid murder trial unfolding in New York. And Dr. Lloyd, you had a bone to pick with Jenny and Samantha, I guess. Tell us about that.
LLOYD: Well, Drew, I want to accuse you of discrimination against men. For the past several nights you`ve always had these segments where you load up with four or five women and they all sit around and talk about the romantic motivations for both Sylvie and Nicholas, but it`s always women win for awash in estrogen. And I think it`s time for a little more male input. I could have added some important ideas during that discussion.
And the one point that I wanted to bring across was, look at what you`re dealing with. This guy Nicholas is an apple that did not fall far from the tree. Remember, his father who himself was convicted of sex crimes involving prostitution, rest his soul, won the 1978 Oscar for "You Light Up My Life." Go to the lyrics. Go to the lyrics.
It can`t be wrong when it feels so right. That`s where we are right now. And this is why these unfortunate women hang around with these losers. Girls, what do you think?
PINSKY: Jenny, go ahead.
HUTT: I think you were pretty much saying the same thing that I said. The same thing. It was a toxic, awful relationship that was kept together because the crazy sort of that sexual chemistry feeling that linked them even though it was toxic and awful.
LLOYD: How do women pull the trigger then? How do women hit the eject button then? How are they able to extricate themselves? These are intelligent women. She was a very successful businesswoman. How come they just can`t push the button and said, ah, that`s enough?
SCHACHER: That`s what we were saying. We were saying the same thing, exactly the same thing. And again, of course, the apple doesn`t fall far from the tree and the sister looks like a self-entitled B-word too, may I add.
PINSKY: Mark 15 seconds.
EIGLARSH: The other night, Wendy had two words. She said hot sex. And I thought co-dependency.
PINSKY: And I`ll have to refine (ph) that, mark. I completely agree. We`ll call it love addiction, because those are the other two words that go on to the co-dependency rubric. And gentlemen, let`s admit, females are the slightly superior version of the human being, won`t you agree?
PINSKY: Back with next call.
EIGLARSH: Oh, yes. Yes.
PINSKY: Next call after this. Thank you, Mark. Thank you.
LLOYD: Thirty-two years you won`t get any argument out of me.
PINSKY: Jenny, thank you so much for a job well done tonight. Interesting show as always. Good input. Thank you all for watching. "HLN After Dark" has more on the Zimmerman trial and it starts now.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Tonight`s bold question, did George Zimmerman deceive police about following Trayvon Martin? Prosecutors alleged Zimmerman followed and eventually confronted Trayvon Martin. But Zimmerman told police he stopped following him and was walking back to his car when he was attacked by Martin.