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Zimmerman Defense Says Sidewalk Was Deadly Weapon

Aired June 25, 2013 - 20:00:00   ET



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Martin was lying face down, with his head oriented generally towards the north and his hands underneath his body, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I processed the grip, which is on the back side.

911 OPERATOR: Does he look hurt (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t see him. I don`t want to go out there. I don`t know what`s going on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) him as (EXPLETIVE DELETED) punk, this 17- year-old boy walking...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: State`s 32 depicts what?




DISPATCHER: (INAUDIBLE) that he`s heading towards?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The tape itself speaks for itself, and this jury will be able to use it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sybrina Fulton, who I saw -- I just saw her shaking. She stood up and she walked out of that courtroom.

ZIMMERMAN: (INAUDIBLE) they always get away (INAUDIBLE) He`s running.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you see any movement from Trayvon Martin`s body as you approached him?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, sir, I did not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hear any sounds coming from Trayvon Martin when you approached him?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, sir, I did not.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Bombshell tonight. Seventeen-year-old Trayvon Martin`s family walk out of the courtroom when shocking photos of their son face down in the dirt, in the rain, shot to death, projected overhead as the jury themselves visibly recoil at the graphic photos. And tonight, Zimmerman`s defense now claims gunshot residue -- gunshot residue -- will absolutely prove 17-year-old Martin -- Martin! -- was attacking the 29-year-old head of the neighborhood watch.

We learn the night of the deadly shooting, police try to revive 17-year-old Martin with Saran Wrap and Vaseline. In a stunning turn, the defense now claims the high school junior was armed with a deadly weapon. The deadly weapon? The sidewalk. That is the defense, Trayvon Martin was armed with the sidewalk!

We are live and taking your calls. Straight out to Jean Casarez, HLN legal correspondent joining me there at the trial. Jean, what happened?

JEAN CASAREZ, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: Nancy, it was quite a day. It was really quite a day because the jurors were taken back to February 26th, 2011, and they went to the crime scene through the photographs.

And what they saw was it was so dark, it was so wet, and they saw the body of Trayvon Martin. And they saw a body that didn`t have any blood on it, hands that didn`t have any blood, hands that were originally clenched inward. He was faced to the ground.

His legs were interesting. I think the defense may use that because his feet were turned inward...

GRACE: Hold on. Hold on, Jean! Jean, I`m showing right now -- take Jean and myself down quickly. I want to show this photo to the viewers. See, this is a courtyard -- well, there it went. Let me try to get that photo back.

This is a courtyard in between two sets of apartments. And basically, people were in their back yard, on their patio or at their kitchen windows and looking straight out. Let`s see if we can get that original picture back that we were describing. Basically, it happened in their back yard.

I want to warn everyone that we are showing very disturbing and graphic photos of the murder that went down that night. OK, Jean, I find it interesting, the way Trayvon -- 17-year-old Trayvon Martin`s body was positioned, as well. Go ahead.

CASAREZ: Yes. And then some more pictures, a closeup of his face. His eyes were open. And I just want to tell you that Mr. Martin, the father, stood up and walked out almost immediately when these pictures started being taken. I looked at his eyes as he walked out the door, and they were just filled with pain, of course. His mother sat there for a while. She finally left.

But here`s what interesting. The crime scene tech went after that to the police department and started taking pictures of George Zimmerman. The first image the jury sees of George Zimmerman was immaculate clothes, immaculate face, seemingly no injuries on him at all. That was the first image.

The pictures are shown of the back of his head, but they went through them quickly. And then on cross-examination, you saw a lot of injuries on the back of George Zimmerman`s head, lumps and bumps and abrasions and blood that was coming down. And they cleaned the front of his face, the EMS fire official there, so you didn`t really see anything on the front.

GRACE: Everyone, there you`re seeing a short of Zimmerman. And I`d like to go back to that shot of his face, if we could get it. The shot of Zimmerman that you just saw clearly shows that his nose has absolutely been injured. The next shot shows blood streaming down the back of his head.

Now, was there a fight? Yes, there was. Did he get his head hit? Yes, he did. What this doesn`t address is the fact that he is the original aggressor.

Another issue came up in court. We discover that Zimmerman has a history, a long and rich history of calling police whenever he sees anything in the area. There`s nothing wrong with that. He`s the head of the neighborhood watch. Take a listen to this.


DISPATCHER: This guy, is he white, black or Hispanic?

ZIMMERMAN: He looks black. He`s a black male. And there`s two suspicious characters at the gate of my neighborhood. I`ve never seen them before. I have no idea what they`re doing. They`re just hanging out, loitering.

DISPATCHER: Mr. Zimmerman, can you describe the two individuals?

ZIMMERMAN: Two African-American males.

DISPATCHER: Is he white, black or Hispanic?


I`m with the neighborhood watch, and we`ve had some burglaries and vandalisms lately. And this gentleman was walking in the neighborhood. I`ve seen him before on trash days going around picking up trash. I don`t know what his deal is.

DISPATCHER: Is he white, black or Hispanic?

ZIMMERMAN: He`s black.

DISPATCHER: What is he wearing?

ZIMMERMAN: He`s wearing black leather jacket, a black bomber hat.

DISPATCHER: Black what now? A black what kind of hat?

ZIMMERMAN: Like a bomber hat, like the ones that have the ears that you can fold down.

DISPATCHER: Black leather jacket, black hat...

ZIMMERMAN: We actually just had our neighborhood watch meeting yesterday (INAUDIBLE) came out here and Officer Buchanan.


ZIMMERMAN: Told us to report anything suspicious. It`s late and they usually don`t have their garage door open all night, so...

DISPATCHER: Sanford Police Department. This line is being recorded. This is Vickie.


GRACE: OK, let`s go to the next one.


ZIMMERMAN: My name is George (INAUDIBLE) Retreat at Twin Lakes (INAUDIBLE)


ZIMMERMAN: I`m part of the neighborhood watch. And I just wanted to let you guys know that somebody left -- we`ve had -- we`ve been plagued with some robberies and burglaries, and somebody did leave their garage door open.

DISPATCHER: Hold on, sir, one second. (INAUDIBLE)


GRACE: Holding a garage door open. Let`s go to the next one.


ZIMMERMAN: There was a break-in in my neighborhood recently. And two youths that match the description of the people -- my wife ID`d them and saw them. They`re back in the neighborhood.

DISPATCHER: What`s the address?


GRACE: OK, that is five calls that we know of.

Out to you, Steve Helling, writer with "People" magazine. Steve, the significance of these phone calls, these non-911 calls, his history of calling police -- why did Zimmerman`s defense camp fight so hard to keep those out?

STEVE HELLING, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: Well, they thought that those would be prejudicial and they thought that that would kind of turn the tide against their client. So they decided...

GRACE: Whoa! Whoa!

HELLING: ... that they wanted...

GRACE: Since when is it prejudicial to call police, Steve Helling, when you think you see a problem? So explain that. Sounds bassackwards to me.

HELLING: Well, it does sound backwards, but that`s -- that`s what the defense is saying, that this would prejudice the jury against their client.

You know, and it`s fine to all 911, I think, you know, and it`s fine to call the police. The difference is, in this last case, you know, obviously, it went further than just calling the police, and that`s really what`s at essence here.

GRACE: OK, Deborah Roberts joining me, news anchor, Florida News Network. Everyone, we are live, taking your calls, everyone positioned there at the courthouse.

Deborah, explain to me, how is it a bad thing to call police? Why did Zimmerman`s own defense insist that these calls not come in before the jury?

DEBORAH ROBERTS, FLORIDA NEWS NETWORK: Well, the defense`s feeling is that these are prior events that have nothing to do with the night of February 26th, 2012. They feel that the six to eight minutes before Zimmerman fires the fatal shot are the only moments that matter in this case, whereas the prosecution feels that this lays the ground work for their reasoning behind a second degree murder conviction.

GRACE: OK, Deborah...

ROBERTS: It shows a mounting -- yes?

GRACE: If it was simply irrelevant -- I know that maybe what the defense said in court, It`s irrelevant. But if it was simply irrelevant and it didn`t hurt them, they wouldn`t give a rat`s eye...


GRACE: ... if it came into evidence or not. They wouldn`t care.

Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Mike Gottlieb, defense attorney, Miami, Renee Rockwell, veteran defense attorney joining me out of the Atlanta jurisdiction.

So Renee, let me just ask you up front to put it in a nutshell. Why is the defense fighting so hard to keep these calls out?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, because what it`s doing is it`s showing the jury how super-sensitive he is, and it`s also talking about African-American, African-American, black...

GRACE: Put up the lawyers! OK, Renee, did you hear every single time he goes, They`re black, they`re black, they`re black, they`re black, black, black, black, black?


GRACE: You know, I don`t know if...


ROCKWELL: It`s in the black door playing the race card. But it also shows his character, that he may be so super-sensitive. I think it needs to stay out, if I`m on the defense team.

GRACE: OK, on the other hand, Gottlieb, maybe the people that he saw were African-American. So what difference does it make?

MIKE GOTTLIEB, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, he`s not even volunteering that information. That`s information that he`s being asked to give. He`s giving a description of what he`s seeing. He`s responding to the police questions.

GRACE: He is volunteering because...

GOTTLIEB: This is impermissible...

GRACE: ... he`s the one that called. The police didn`t call him.

GOTTLIEB: Yes, but they`re asking him to -- they`re asking him to describe what he sees. He`s describing what he sees. This is impermissible character evidence. It`s the prosecution trying to...

GRACE: Gottlieb!

GOTTLIEB: ... paint a negative picture...

GRACE: Gottlieb! Gottlieb!

GOTTLIEB: ... because they don`t have evidence. Yes?

GRACE: How -- will you put him up, Liz? Lead (ph) him up. Gottlieb, since when did it become bad character to call police when you see something suspicious? Can you tell me that?

GOTTLIEB: It`s not bad character to call the police.

GRACE: What?

GOTTLIEB: It`s the way the prosecution...

GRACE: You just said it was!

GOTTLIEB: ... the way the prosecution is -- no, I didn`t say that. It`s not bad character...

GRACE: Yes, you did.

GOTTLIEB: ... to call the police.

GRACE: You said...


GOTTLIEB: That`s not what the prosecution is doing. No, no, no. That`s not what the prosecution is doing. What the prosecution`s doing if...

GRACE: Well, I know that.

GOTTLIEB: ... is trying to show that...

GRACE: But that`s what you said.

GOTTLIEB: ... he`s calling the police -- no, he`s trying -- the prosecution is trying to show that he`s calling the police only on African- Americans. And they`re painting a picture of an individual who allegedly hates African-Americans...

GRACE: Well, he did...

GOTTLIEB: ... and that`s not what this case is about.

GRACE: ... call police on an open garage door, OK? So that was also peppered (ph) in there. Let me go back to you...

GOTTLIEB: He called...

GRACE: ... Jean Casarez. Yes, he did. He did complain about one garage door being open. You know what I think, Jean Casarez? You know why I think that the defense doesn`t want this in? I mean, in a normal world, unless we`re in Alice in Wonderland where everything`s upside down -- in a normal world, we like somebody to call 911 when they see something suspicious. But here it`s making him look like a crackpot. That`s what -- like a kook.

CASAREZ: Or someone that is being filled with ill will, hatred and spite and step by step by step, it gets so much. And also, in all of those 911 calls, he`s in his apartment. He says, I`m not going to leave, I`m going to stay here. But on the last one, he gets out of the car.

GRACE: OK, out to you, Frank Taaffe, joining us, friend of George Zimmerman. Frank, why is Zimmerman fighting so hard to keep these 911 -- well, they`re non-911 emergencies he`s calling in. Since when is it a bad thing to call the police?

FRANK TAAFFE, FRIEND OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: It`s not a bad thing. Let`s go back to what George is doing. He volunteered for all this. He didn`t work on commission, every call he made, he got paid. He was looking out for the safety of the community.

Let me -- let me acknowledge one thing here, that the last call that George made was not the time he got out of the car. You need to remember in the early part of February, which one of the 911 calls, the non-emergency that was made, documented was a burglary in progress at my home that he helped stop due to his due diligence.

Now, I also want to share this with all your viewers. He called me up two days before he was arrested, and he shared with me the information about the African-American who had been robbing the homes in our neighborhood, and also that the individual who was prowling at my house on the night of February 2nd -- you can go back in the records and see that -- that he was walking his dog that night. He wasn`t on patrol. He was out just walking his dog, and that he was carrying his Keltech 9 that night.

He wanted me to share that with everyone, that it just wasn`t out of the ordinary mainstream what he was doing, that he did not -- he carried his weapon that night, and he wanted me to share that with everybody.

GRACE: So he carried a .9-millimeter Keltech when he was walking his dog?

TAAFFE: He had a concealed weapons permit! He had a concealed...

GRACE: I didn`t ask you that. I`m just asking...

TAAFFE: ... weapons permit!

GRACE: ... why is he carrying his gun, a .9 of all things, to walk his dog?

TAAFFE: Because he had a legal permit to carry it!

GRACE: Didn`t ask you that.

TAAFFE: No one needs to tell you when you...

GRACE: I`m asking you...

TAAFFE: What are you asking me?

GRACE: ... why did he feel he had -- take three. Don`t cop an attitude with me, Taaffe, all right? I asked you three times...

TAAFFE: I`m not copping an attitude.

GRACE: ... why did he have a weapon, a .9-millimeter, to go out and walk his poodle? Why did he have to have a gun to walk his dog?

TAAFFE: It`s a Rottweiler, and the dog`s name was Oso (ph).

GRACE: I`m so not surprised.

TAAFFE: And -- which means "bear."

GRACE: Can you tell -- OK, you know what? I give up! I give up. I don`t care why he had a .9!

TAAFFE: No, he had a legal right!

GRACE: I don`t care!


GRACE: I didn`t ask you that! I know the Constitution very well!

TAAFFE: Well, I`m answering.

GRACE: I know. I know he had a legal right to...

TAAFFE: I`m sure you do.

GRACE: ... carry a weapon! But I`m asking you why he was carrying a weapon to walk his dog. You brought it up. I didn`t bring it up. I`m interested because if he didn`t have that weapon...

TAAFFE: Because...


TAAFFE: Let me answer!

GRACE: ... was gunned down...

TAAFFE: Let me...

GRACE: ... the boy would be alive right now!

TAAFFE: Allow me the opportunity to answer.

GRACE: No. I asked you three times.


GRACE: No, I`m going to give you the opportunity...

TAAFFE: OK, want me to answer it?

GRACE: ... to hear this. Liz, roll it.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It sounds like a male.

911 OPERATOR: And you don`t know why?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know why, I think they`re yelling help, but I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Send someone quick, please!

911 OPERATOR: Does he look hurt to you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t see him. I don`t want to go out there. I don`t know what`s going on, so...





GRACE: Welcome back. We are taking your calls. The courtroom boiling over as Trayvon Martin`s family walk out when photos of his dead body face down on the dirt in the pouring rain emerge. They`re put up on a giant screen overhead. I think I`d have to walk out, too.

Another issue we learn about tonight -- out to you, Alexis Weed. The defense, Zimmerman`s defense, now says that 17-year-old Martin was armed with a deadly weapon. That weapon? The sidewalk. All right, they also claim that gunshot residue alone will show that Trayvon Martin was the one that was the aggressor.

First address the gunshot residue. How does that show me that Trayvon Martin was actually attacking Zimmerman?

ALEXIS WEED, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: The defense said that the way that the gun would have come into contact with Trayvon Martin`s clothing shows that Trayvon`s sweatshirt would have been kind of bowled (ph) over, hanging over him, meaning that the gravity was pulling it down, and that he was the one that was on top of Zimmerman and not the other way around.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think they`re yelling help, but I don`t know.

ZIMMERMAN: He`s got his hand in his waistband.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like a sweatshirt, where you would put your hands into a pocket in the front, sir?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Send someone quick, please.

ZIMMERMAN: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) they always get away. This guy looks like he`s up to no good or he`s on drugs or something. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) (EXPLETIVE DELETED).


GRACE: Welcome back. We are live and taking your calls. Out to Caroline in Connecticut. Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, I`m wondering about the 47 calls that he has made to police prior to this. How many of those calls were actually followed by any arrests, or were they substantial calls?

GRACE: Good question. Out to you, Jean Casarez. How many calls? He is the captain of the neighborhood watch. He`s supposed to make calls.

CASAREZ: That`s right, and...

GRACE: But how many did he make?

CASAREZ: ... the neighbors -- he made in the 40s. That`s right. Prosecutors only want to include about five to six close in time. But it was the policy that the residents were supposed to call him and he was supposed to call non-emergency 911. And he was instructed it`s better safe than sorry. You call if you think you see something suspicious. That`s the terminology the police department used.

GRACE: That`s why I still don`t understand why the defense doesn`t want it brought in. Caroline in Connecticut`s question was, how many of these were legitimate? And remember, all of these are not things that Zimmerman saw. He`s the captain of neighborhood watch. Residents would call him, he would call it in. Do we know how many resulted in arrests?

CASAREZ: No, we don`t.

GRACE: OK. I want to go back to Deborah Roberts joining me. She`s in Orlando at the courthouse, news anchor, Florida News Network.

When the photos were put up of Trayvon Martin`s body face down in the dirt, Martin`s family walked out of the courtroom. Was there any response from the jury?

ROBERTS: The jury recoiled. They were very disturbed by the pictures. And Trayvon`s father, Tracy, immediately got up and walked out of the courtroom. Sybrina Fulton, his mother, sat there for a while, keeping her eyes averted away from the screen, but eventually, she had to leave the courtroom, as well.

And I know just seeing them myself, your heart just breaks. I can`t imagine the pain those parents felt seeing that last image of their son like that, splashed up on that big screen.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I saw another officer, Officer Ricardo Ayala (ph), standing over a body in the grass...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you later learn that person`s name to be Trayvon Martin?



ZIMMERMAN: He`s coming to check me out. He`s got something in his hands. I don`t know what his deal is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You go to the motive and the intent of Mr. Zimmerman when he got out of that car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hear anything when you were performing CPR on Trayvon Martin?



RAIMONDO: Bubbling sounds, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does he look hurt?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t see him. I don`t want to go out there. I don`t know what`s going on so --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell them to send in a car.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re sending them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Without question, it is --


NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: Welcome back. We are live and taking your calls. Bombshell in the courtroom today. The defense presented by George Zimmerman, the captain of neighborhood watch, is that high school junior was armed with a dangerous weapon. That weapon? The sidewalk. He was armed with the sidewalk.

I`m going to show you what just went down in the courtroom. I`m going to warn you. It is graphic.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is it that you went? What did you -- what else did you do?

RAIMONDO: I looked to the south, sir, and I saw another officer, Officer Ricardo Ayala, standing over a body in the grass.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did you go over to them?

RAIMONDO: Yes, sir, I did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. The person who was in the grass, did you later learn that person`s name to be Trayvon Martin?

RAIMONDO: Yes, sir, I did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you show the members of the jury where on the area approximately Trayvon Martin and Officer Ayala were located?

RAIMONDO: Somewhere right in this area, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. And that would be south of the T area?

RAIMONDO: Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. How was Trayvon Martin`s body positioned when you arrived?

RAIMONDO: Mr. Martin was lying face down with his head oriented generally towards the north and his hands underneath his body, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. And as we look at state`s exhibit 1, is it --

GRACE: That`s important. The hands under his body.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- correct as far as north and south, with north be to the top and east to the right, et cetera?

RAIMONDO: Yes, sir.


GRACE: This is after the body was turned over. I`m going to warn you these are graphic photos.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: State Exhibit 5, does that give a -- obviously there`s a flash in there but does that give a general idea of the lighting conditions out there when you arrived?

RAIMONDO: Yes, sir.

GRACE: And state`s exhibit 77, do you recognize that?

RAIMONDO: Yes, sir, I do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that a fair and accurate depiction of the way Trayvon Martin`s body was positioned when you approached it?

RAIMONDO: Yes, sir, it is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you see any movement from Trayvon Martin`s body as you approached him?

RAIMONDO: No, sir, I did not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you see any sounds coming from Trayvon Martin when you approached him?

RAIMONDO: No, sir, I did not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you attempt to see if Trayvon Martin was still alive?

RAIMONDO: Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did you do that?

RAIMONDO: I attempted to get his pulse, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And where did you attempt to talk his pulse around?

RAIMONDO: On his neck, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you had training in that?

RAIMONDO: Yes, sir, I have.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Did you detect a pulse on Trayvon Martin?

RAIMONDO: No, sir, I did not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you or Officer Ayala move Trayvon Martin`s body after you failed to get a pulse?

RAIMONDO: Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did you do that?

RAIMONDO: With the assistance of Officer Ayala, I rolled Mr. -- Mr. Martin`s body over on to his back. Generally from -- I would describe it as west to east or maybe it`s easier to say, sir, that I rolled him on to his left shoulder and on to his back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So as we`re looking at State 77 you would have rolled him from left to right?

RAIMONDO: Yes, sir, from the left side of the screen towards the right side of the screen. Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After you rolled his body over on to his back, did you again try to get a pulse?

RAIMONDO: Yes, sir, I did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did you do that?

RAIMONDO: Same carotid area again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And were you able to get a pulse?

RAIMONDO: No, sir, I was not.

GRACE: You are seeing the testimony of Officer Anthony Raimondo on the stand.

Out to you, Jean Casarez, I`ll tell you what I find so interesting about what he just said. I learned that they tried to revive Trayvon Martin with Saran wrap and Vaseline. That was because he had a hole in his chest and as they tried to do mouth-to-mouth they could hear a bubbling sound as the air coming back out of the entrance wound to that gunshot wound, so they were going to try to put Saran wrap and seal it with Vaseline and then try mouth-to-mouth again with him.

Then he was face down with his hands under his body. Now I`ve never seen, in all the homicide, all the shootings I`ve ever tried, the person fall face down with their hands under their body. How is the defense going to use that to their benefit?

CASAREZ: Well, that may be a challenge. And this is going to be interesting. Because I heard in opening statement something to the effect that George Zimmerman, after he shot him, got on his back, Trayvon Martin`s, and put his hands out. Trayvon Martin`s, I think seemingly believing he could still be alive, to -- to still try to kill George Zimmerman. If so, how did his hands get where they are? Why did they fall as they were?

I think to be continued on that but I think -- I think that`s critical. One more thing I got to tell you. The feet of Trayvon Martin were in -- and I think that`s relevant to show he was straddling over George Zimmerman, banging his head into the cement.

GRACE: I was thinking the defense would try and use hands under his body face down to show that he had been straddling Zimmerman, Zimmerman leapt, and he fell forward and his hands were under his body. I think that`s how they`re going to use that.


GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Renee Rockwell and Mike Gottlieb, and joining me, a special guest, attorney for Trayvon Martin`s family, Daryl Parks is with us tonight.

Daryl, I find it unusual, and I`ve called a lot of items a deadly weapon, a curling iron, a regular iron, a skillet, a rock. I mean anything almost can be construed under the law as a deadly weapon. It doesn`t have to be a knife or a gun. But a sidewalk? How can a human being be armed with a sidewalk?

DARYL PARKS, ATTORNEY FOR TRAYVON MARTIN`S FAMILY: Well, Nancy, I think Don West put that challenge out there and today we learned some very powerful evidence. We saw pictures of Trayvon Martin`s body nowhere near the sidewalk. I think that`s going to be very important.

Number two, we also heard no evidence of blood being found on the sidewalk. We`ve heard them say time and time again that -- that George Zimmerman`s head was beaten on the sidewalk and you heard it best in the opening statement where he said that he used the sidewalk as a weapon to do all these things. No blood on the sidewalk. Very powerful testimony from the technician from the Sanford Police Department.

GRACE: All right. Taafee, response?

TAAFEE: Sure, it was raining that night. The crime scene was contaminated. It wasn`t pristine. I have a response. It was raining. And the rain washed away the blood.

GRACE: OK. Whoa, whoa, wait. Hold on, Mr. Parks.

Mr. Taafee, I hear what you`re saying about the rain. That was a very --

TAAFEE: Yes, but you know, you also got to understand that George made the statement that Trayvon said, you got me, and he stood up, and he fell over, OK? So we only have George`s statement. The eyewitness did not see the part where he got up. The body was in an area, now I`m sure the defense will go into great detail as how -- to their explanation of how it happened.

But if you`ll recall -- Mr. Parks, you weren`t there that night, you don`t know how it was raining.


TAAFEE: And even the crime scene tech admitted to it.

GRACE: Let me get everybody back into the middle of the road.


PARKS: They say it was on (INAUDIBLE), Taafee.

GRACE: My question to you, Taafee, was to respond to Parks.

TAAFEE: Yes, well, it was raining.

GRACE: Yes, we heard you say that three times and I was on the cusp of agreeing with you before you went off into this -- I don`t know what that was, a tirade. Now forget about the rain. We all agree it was raining.

TAAFEE: You know, let`s use common sense.

GRACE: But he brought up another question --

TAAFEE: It`s just common sense.

GRACE: He brought up another very important fact, Mr. Taafee, and that is this body was located nowhere near the sidewalk.

TAAFEE: Yes, I understand that. I saw where the body was. And I`m sure the explanation for that is after he shot Trayvon -- and let me go back to the other thing. It wasn`t a contact shot that Mr. Guy explained in his opening. It was an intermediate shot --

PARKS: Taafee, stay on the subject.


TAAFEE: And it was 6 to 12 inches. OK. I`m going to stay on subject, let me finish. OK. I`m just clarifying some things here.

GRACE: Just get to your point.

TAAFEE: OK. He got up. After he said you got me, and if you listen to George`s statement, in the police station and he did pass the voice print analysis. Let`s not forget all of this. That he was taken down, he was questioned and his story was consistent with self-defense. OK? Let`s all stick with the facts in the case. He passed the voice print analysis.

PARKS: Nancy, one very important point. We saw the clothes of George Zimmerman today. They seemed to be pretty clean. He really didn`t --


TAAFEE: He was wearing a jacket. He was wearing a jacket.

Mr. Parks, please review --


GRACE: Back to our two guests, Frank Taafee, friend of George Zimmerman, and Daryl Parks, attorney for Trayvon Martin`s family.

Gentlemen, it`s getting -- it`s like herding cats with you two.

Mr. Parks, were you were trying to respond. Go ahead, please.

PARKS: Without question I think at the end of the day, Taafee, there is some unequivocal evidence in this case, Nancy. And we have not seen any blood on the sidewalk and we know that they have hung their hat on the fact that Trayvon allegedly banged Mr. Zimmerman`s head on the sidewalk --

TAAFEE: Allegedly? Did you see the marks?

GRACE: Well, Mr. Parks --

TAAFEE: How can you say allegedly? Please.

GRACE: Taafee, OK, I don`t want to cut your mike again.

Mr. Parks, I saw the wounds on the back of Zimmerman`s head.

TAAFEE: It`s not alleged.

GRACE: I know. He got beat in the back of the head. I know that happen.

TAAFEE: Thank you.

GRACE: I don`t if it`s the sidewalk. But he -- that`s not a self- inflicted wound. Now does that -- I don`t know how that`s going to negate the fact that Zimmerman was the original aggressor. It boils down to this, Mr. Parks and Mr. Taafee. The defense is going to say, Zimmerman is going to say, he was beating my head in the sidewalk, of course I shot him. The prosecution is going to say, oh no, no, no, you started it, you`re the aggressor. Zimmerman is the aggressor.

Those are simply the two sides.

Now, Mr. Parks, I want to get an answer out of you as to the beating that Zimmerman took in the back of his head.

PARKS: Well, without question, Nancy --


TAAFEE: I want to hear this.

PARKS: I mean, you can never jump to that part of the story first, Nancy. You have to go back to where the prosecution started this case. George Zimmerman decided on that day that he was going after Trayvon. We now know that in the past he would sit in his car, he would call it in. But on this day he decided these a-holes always get away with it and he was going after Trayvon.

And he made that decision. He got out of his car. He went down in between the townhouse to get Trayvon. So he had made that decision on that day. That`s how he was going handle that situation.

GRACE: OK. I agree with you. It doesn`t start with the beating on -- back of Zimmerman`s head. It doesn`t start there.

All right. Mr. Taafee, I want to hear your reasoning, you know it better than any of us. Your reasoning as to why Zimmerman is not responsible because he is the original aggressor.

TAAFEE: He`s not the original aggressor nor could the state prove that and they had Inspector Gailbreath at the bond hearing on direct from Mr. O`Mara and he could not state unequivocally who was the aggressor. So that point is moot. Let`s move on from that. OK?

GRACE: OK. I`m going to --

TAAFEE: It`s not going to be established.

GRACE: All right. I wanted to ask you that. That`s your answer.

Back to the lawyers, Rockwell and Gottlieb.

Renee, the law, when we`re talking about an aggressor, means who is pursuing who.

Can I see the lawyers? I called for Renee Rockwell and Mike Gottlieb. I`d like to see them.

So when we`re talking about aggressor we don`t necessarily mean hand-to- hand mutual combat. We mean who is pursuing who. And clearly Zimmerman is, by his own words to 911, is pursuing Trayvon Martin.

Now that`s going to be very hard to turn around for Zimmerman. He`s the original aggressor. And let me remind you two, you`re for the defense tonight. All right? All right.


GOTTLIEB: I disagree, though, Nancy.

GRACE: Rockwell.

GOTTLIEB: He was talking to the --

GRACE: You`re not Rockwell. Go, Renee.

GOTTLIEB: Go ahead.

ROCKWELL: Not tonight. OK. So, Nancy, an aggressor is one thing. Who starts the contact? But if whatever is returned, let`s say George Zimmerman goes up to confront him, and then what`s returned is some force that`s not called for.


ROCKWELL: So on equal force then you can switch the table.

GRACE: Let me give you my original warning to give it to me in a nutshell.

ROCKWELL: All right, Nancy.

GRACE: Mike, what I think she`s saying --

ROCKWELL: Just because he started it --

GRACE: Mike Gottlieb, as if I slap you, you don`t have the right to shoot me with an Uzi. That mean you use the force necessarily to respond to the attack.

GOTTLIEB: But let`s talk about the evidence. The evidence is that the 911 operator told him to stand down, he stood down. And the young lady that`s on the phone with Trayvon Martin says Martin turned around and confronted Zimmerman and said, what are you following me for? At that point in time the defense team says that that`s the aggressor. Trayvon Martin was the aggressor when he confronted Zimmerman and said, what are you following me for?

GRACE: OK. Got it.

GOTTLIEB: Two minutes later, Trayvon Martin was dead.

GRACE: To Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist. Weigh in, Patricia.

PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: He didn`t stand down. It was noted in the recording they told him, you don`t have to go after him. And he persisted in pursuing him. That does make him the aggressor.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you need police, fire, medical?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maybe both. I`m not sure. There`s just someone screaming outside.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you think he`s yelling help?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right, what is your --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s gun shots.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You just heard gun shots?





GRACE: Welcome back. We are taking your calls. Out to Crystal.

Hi, Crystal, what`s your question?

CRYSTAL, CALLER: Hey, Nancy. I just want to say thank you for all you do and you`re amazing.

GRACE: Thank you.

CRYSTAL: My question is, if he was told to not pursue this young man and he continued, I mean, if I had been Trayvon myself, I would have probably ran or took defensive stance myself not knowing in the dark who was after me. I just don`t see how they can`t say that he`s not guilty for doing -- for murder.

GRACE: Well, I tell you, the defense is hanging its hat on those wounds to the back of Zimmerman`s head. They are claiming that a high school junior was armed with the sidewalk as a deadly weapon, and that he beat a 29-year- old captain of the neighborhood watch. And that justified him pulling a gun and shooting him.

That is the claim basically of self-defense. All right? That hey, you were beating my head into cement so I shot you. That`s what they`re claiming. That in my mind ignores the fact that under the law, Zimmerman was the original aggressor. And we know that Trayvon Martin started running. I`d run, too. I mean, he didn`t know who was following him.

He started running. I don`t know when he turned back. I don`t know if he did turn back. I can`t tell from the 911 calls if he turned around and went back on Zimmerman.

I want to go out to Dr. Panchali Dhar, physician at New York Presbyterian Hospital.

Doctor, thank you so much. How were they going to use Saran wrap and Vaseline exactly?

DR. PANCHALI DHAR, M.D., INTERNAL MEDICINE, AUTHOR OF "BEFORE THE SCALPEL": Well, the idea was that the bullet that entered Trayvon`s chest punctured right through the heart, one of the largest chambers of the heart, called the right ventricle. And the bullet shattered into pieces. Both lungs were down. And both lung cavities were filled with blood, so Trayvon could not breathe. He was suffocating.

Now the hole, the entrance wound in the chest was communicating with the air. So you could not possibly fill Trayvon`s lungs with any amount of oxygen because it would just go outside. So the Saran wrap, the idea -- it doesn`t work -- but was an attempt to actually seal the lung cavity so some oxygen can get into Trayvon.

It`s useless efforts. CPR was not going to work on Trayvon. Trayvon was dead instantly. Period.


GRACE: We remember American hero, Army Specialist Ryan Clark, 22, New London, Minnesota. Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Afghanistan Campaign Medal. Parents Rick and Tracy. Sister Lilia.

Ryan Clark, American hero.

And now back to the coverage of the George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin trial.

I want to go to a special guest, Jerome Horton. This is Trayvon Martin`s former football coach.

Mr. Horton, you spoke with Trayvon`s father last night. What was his reaction to the first day of trial?

JEROME HORTON, TRAYVON MARTIN`S FORMER FOOTBALL COACH: He was more hurt more than anything. He was crushed and devastated. The simple fact of hearing the 911 call, hearing what he knows is Trayvon`s screams.

GRACE: What did he tell you about Zimmerman`s demeanor in court?

HORTON: He said he`s really -- it pisses him off that Zimmerman sits there showing no remorse, no emotions whatsoever. Half the time it seemed like he was sitting there trying to fight falling asleep. He made eye contact with nobody.

GRACE: So you`re telling me that Trayvon`s father says that Zimmerman is showing no emotion whatsoever in court?


GRACE: Actually looks like he`s falling asleep?

HORTON: I`m sorry?

GRACE: Looks like he was falling asleep?

HORTON: Yes. He said even with the 911 calls was playing, if you watch Zimmerman, he showed zero remorse. Even with hearing the screams or anything. He shows no remorse. He showed no emotions across his face at all.

GRACE: I got to tell you something, Mr. Horton. When I heard that 911 call, it nearly tore my heart apart. Imagining them listening to what they believe is their son screaming.

Thank you for being with us.

HORTON: Absolutely.

GRACE: Everyone, as we go to break, I want to wish a very happy 99th to Mr. Elba. He loves gardening, his son Larry, and two --