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Where Is Baby Elaina?; Zimmerman Trial Analysis
Aired June 26, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, eyewitness accounts of Trayvon Martin`s death.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s what I saw and that`s the only thing I can tell you.
PINSKY: They heard it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So the guy on top to you appeared to be bigger and your answer was yes?
PINSKY: They testified today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then, I heard like a, from my window, pop, pop, pop.
PINSKY: Plus, baby Elaina exclusive, the child`s aunt knows something. She is here to tell us what it is on day 25 of Elaina`s disappearance.
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening.
My co-host is Jenny Hutt, Sirius XM radio host and herself an attorney.
Today, the star witness in the George Zimmerman trial, the last woman to have spoken with Trayvon Martin the night he was killed, she was on the phone with him when he was shot by Zimmerman. You got to look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RACHEL JEANTEL, TRAYVON MARTIN`S FRIEND: (INAUDIBLE) Trayvon, he said, "Why are you following me for?" And I heard a hard-breathing man come and say, "What are you doing around here?"
And then I started saying, Trayvon, Trayvon, what`s going on? Then I heard a bonk, a bonk on the headset. Trayvon had a head set. I was trying to say Trayvon, Trayvon, what`s going on?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you hear.
JEANTEL: I heard Trayvon saying, "Get off, get off."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then what did you hear.
JEANTEL: Then suddenly the phone hung up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us, attorney Mark Eiglarsh from speaktomark.com, Michael Skolnik, editor-in-chief of GlobalGrind.com. He`s on the board of Trayvon Martin Foundation. Attorney Areva Martin, attorney Loni Coombs, author of "You`re Perfect and Other Lies Parents Tell."
And right now, I want to go out to HLN legal analyst Jean Casarez who is at the trial.
Jean, can you describe the scene to me today in the courtroom and what really stood out for you?
JEAN CASAREZ, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, as the correspondent here for this trial and I sit in the courtroom, I look at the jury and when she took the stand, I`ll tell you, they were so focused. I have seen a little bit of agitation at least in one of them at the side bars and things are taking too long and they want to get on with it.
But when she testified they were focused, they weren`t really taking note. They were listening. But everybody in the courtroom was just trying to understand what she was saying because some of the voice was low, some of it was non-understandable.
But the point being made by the defense right there is that we have begun now the cross-examination and they are going to try to impeach almost everything she said because she had the Crump interview that he did not under sworn testimony. She did the deposition by the defense which they incorporated that interview and made it sworn testimony and now she`s testified in court.
So it was tough to keep it with at times, Drew.
PINSKY: I`m wondering if the style the defense used, and I`m going to ask my panel this as well, put off the jury in some way. In other words, were they too tough on this witness? She`s a high school kid on the stand. I know she looks a good bit older, but this is a high school kid. And people might forget that.
CASAREZ: And there was a lot of empathy I think for her because she lied in her first interview to Mr. Crump with the Tracy Martin family there. She said she was in the hospital and that`s why she couldn`t go to the funeral. She said her age was 16.
She said on the stand that the fact that he was the last person to have spoken to Trayvon Martin before he died, to confront his mother and to look at the body at the funeral, it was too much for her. She spoke from her heart right there and it was highly emotional.
PINSKY: OK, Jean.
CASAREZ: You understand why she didn`t tell the truth.
PINSKY: OK, Jean. That is really important information. Thank you so much.
Michael, I want to go out and talk to you about the star witness, Trayvon`s friend Rachel.
This whole thing is too much for a high school kid. She was just sort of -- do you think she was sort of trying to push it away and some of these lies and things was just a high school kid`s behavior?
MICHAEL SKOLNIK, GLOBALGRIND.COM: I think what Jean just said. This is incredibly tough for this young girl. Imagine this was your friend, you were the last person to speak to him before he was shot and killed. This is not just an eyewitness who was inside their home, who didn`t know Trayvon. This is your friend and you`re being badgered by a guy who`s defending the killer of your friend, the killer. The first time you`re selling the killer of your friend in the room.
So, for Rachel, this was incredibly emotional. And she was brutally honest. I mean, she wore her honesty and her emotions and her sadness on her sleeve. My heart goes out to her, putting aside her colorful personality, she really, really was honest today.
PINSKY: And, Mark, she was honest about being dishonest. I`m ready to excuse her just because she`s a kid. But to say she`s honest is a little bit of a twist, right.
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: I would agree. A critical issue in this case amongst others is whose voice was it on the 911 tape. She said in court today, it was Trayvon`s that was yelling. But in her March deposition, it could have been Trayvon. And she repeated that.
Those are two different things. I got the say for the first time ever I now understand why the defense wanted women on this jury. I`ve been told for 21 years trying cases, from women, that if you`ve got a star witness that`s a woman, get women on the jury because they`ll judge her most critically than any man would.
PINSKY: Areva, do you agree with that?
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: I disagree with that, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Go ahead. Go ahead.
MARTIN: I think women in this case are going to see that this young girl is doing the best that she can. She went through a very traumatic situation. What`s key today is she established that Zimmerman was the aggressor. That Trayvon told her in the last moments of his life that he was being followed. That`s a very critical piece of testimony that came out today.
EIGLARSH: Wait a second.
MARTIN: And I think the women on the jury are going to see what was going on with this young girl and they`re going to give her the benefit of the doubt and that testimony is going to be very key to the prosecution in getting guilty verdict.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Mark.
EIGLARSH: Two things -- one, we`re not done with cross examination. And by the way, I don`t have a crystal ball. They may credit her testimony, I don`t know.
But we`re not done with that. But the second thing is, don`t you feel like they`re going to be critical to her lack of taking the proceeding seriously, number one. And number two that she`s telling inconsistent statements. You don`t think that`s going to resonate?
MARTIN: There are some teenage issues here that they`re going to respect.
LONI COOMBS, ATTORNEY: Areva, I understand the teenage issues, but she also said very clearly, hey, when I did that Crump interview, I didn`t want to be there, I discount the interview all together, even though she gave it. She said she was telling the truth.
MARTIN: You know at the interview she was being taped by the television station and she didn`t even know it.
COOMBS: That`s exactly right. But that`s something that happened later. Right there, she`s telling the jury, look, you know, sometimes I tell the truth, sometimes I don`t.
I think the thing she was honest about was her emotions about this whole thing.
COOMBS: And she -- yes. And I think that was very truthful. I think that`s what the jurors will empathize with. But they also are have to use their logic and reason, say, look she`s changing or statements there.
PINSKY: Hang on, Michael.
COOMBS: We really have to pay attention to what is credible in what she`s saying.
PINSKY: Jenny, I want to get you in here.
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Thank you. Listen, I loved this witness, I loved her for the prosecution and here`s why. I believe her. I watch her today, as though I were a juror at home and I felt like she was without guile, she was just there to so do the right thing today.
I understand that there were some untruths prior. I felt like she was there telling the truth, I felt her emotion and I felt like she was a kid when this went down. She`s still a kid. And, frankly, there are funerals I haven`t shown up to because it was too much for me to take as a 43-year-old grown woman.
This girl is going through so much. And look at her so composed being there, to be a witness in this trial. I think she perhaps is a little naive and a little innocent in life and I just, I believe her and I think the jury will too.
PINSKY: Well, we`re going to break --
MARTIN: You know what? These are real people. She`s not a professional. We`re going to see some expert witnesses that get paid to testify.
This is a teenager and I think the women on the trial are going to recognize that.
PINSKY: We`re going to break her down a little bit in the behavior bureau. But go ahead, Mark.
EIGLARSH: If this woman left you -- this young lady left you with the same confidence that your doctor left you with in telling you needed an operation, would you want a second opinion?
SKOLNIK: Come on. You can`t --
SKOLNIK: Wait a minute.
SKOLNIK: This young woman, the only thing she didn`t tell the truth about that she didn`t go to the funeral and she lied about her age to protect her own pain. That`s what 18-year-old young people are dealing with.
EIGLARSH: I`m not calling her a liar, Michael. Michael, let me make this very clear, I`m not calling her a liar.
SKOLNIK: But she`s a credible witness. She`s an absolute credible witness. She understands. She said thing that were bad about Trayvon. And she was coached, she probably wouldn`t have told to say. But she said it. She was completely honest today.
EIGLARSH: Michael, let me make my position clear, I`m not saying she`s lying and I`m not saying the jurors are going to disregard what she`s saying. What I`m saying is, can you rely upon what she`s saying in making the most important decision that these jurors will ever have to make? I don`t know. I have some pause there.
PINSKY: We`re going to get more into her as we go along her.
Next up -- thank you guys. The defense grilled a number of the prosecution witnesses today. We`re going talk about who was more effective today, the prosecution or the defense.
And later on, we`re going to get back to baby Elaina who has been gone for 25 days. I`ll be interviewing a close relative exclusively who has some very interesting information.
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CALLER: It sounds like a male.
DISPATCH: And you don`t know why?
CALLER: I don`t know why. I think they`re yelling help. But I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFEID MALE: The yell for help that you heard at that time, can you identify whether it was the dominant louder voice or the higher pitched one?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In my opinion, I truly believe, especially the second yell for help that was like a yelp, it was excruciating, I really felt it was the boy`s voice.
DISPATCH: Did you see anything at all or you just heard screaming?
CALLER: I just heard screaming and a gun shot.
DISPATCH: So when you heard screaming, it was male screaming.
CALLER: Yes. And the guy on top had a white t-shirt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you tell what the guy on top was doing with his hands.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Like he was hitting him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was your opinion as to who was on top.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I believe it was Zimmerman comparing the size of their body.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host Jenny Hut.
Now, that was just an edited version of the 911 call we saw.
Mark, let me go out to you. Does Rachel`s testimony tell us anything specific or did you learn something about Trayvon Martin through her testimony?
EIGLARSH: Well, the most important thing for me is that she`s trying to shed light on what happened right before he was tragically killed and what we know is, if you believe her testimony, that he wasn`t the instigator, that Zimmerman was. The problem is, there`s a difference between being certain about something, and saying, well, it could have happened this way. And she seems to be shifting a little bit and that`s why I`m warning whether the jurors will credit her testimony.
PINSKY: And, Jean, I want to go out to you and I ask, did we know anything, did we learn anything about Trayvon`s relationship with Rachel? What was that relationship? I kept hearing there were hundreds of texts and a lot of sort of more than friendly banter. What was their relationship?
CASAREZ: They met in second grade, apparently hasn`t seen each other since second grade, met again on the 1st of February. So she only knew him for 26 days again before he died. But there were thousands of texts. She said they were only friends, that he was seeing someone.
So it sounds like he had a girlfriend that I don`t think we`ve ever heard about.
PINSKY: Interesting. Areva, I know kids, you know what I mean, these are high school kids hanging out, hooking up.
What is that relationship? Can you us help me understand it a little bit?
MARTIN: It`s a typical teenage relationship. If you look at the cell phone of any 16 or 17-year-old, you`re going to see thousands of texts. They don`t talk on the phone, Dr. Drew. It`s not like when you and I were growing, when we communicated on the phone.
Everything is by text messages. So I think we can believe her when he says they reconnected after knowing each other for many years. I think her testimony, consistent with what Mark said, is so key on who was the aggressor, what happened right before this altercation occurred that resulted in Trayvon`s death.
I think today was an excellent day for the prosecution not only because of the witnesses that testify, but also the ruling that the court made about those other calls that Zimmerman made to the police. We`re going to hear how he described African-Americans. We`re going to hear about his frustration, all that go to his motive in the killing of Trayvon Martin. Very important day for the prosecution.
SKOLNIK: I think you are seeing four witnesses in a row that are saying George Zimmerman was the aggressor. At a certain point, this becomes cumulative. It`s not one person saying one thing. You`re seeing a consistency in testimony that George Zimmerman was the aggressor.
In fact, Rachel testified that Trayvon was trying to get away as fast as he can numerous times for George. If he wanted to attack him, he wouldn`t have tried to get away.
PINSKY: Loni, Rachel`s testimony for me was a bit of a roller coaster. At times it was emotional and you can feel deeply emphatic for her. At other times, she was frustrating.
PINSKY: And you could see the frustration on the part of the defense. And I`m wondering if that didn`t work to the prosecution`s advantage or was he less credible because of her hostility.
COOMBS: Well, I`ll tell you -- she, for those purposes, she was somewhat of a difficult witness on both sides. On the prosecution, she was trying to get out the conversation that she knew that attorney was asking her about and they kept stopping her and stopping her, the court reporter was stopping her, saying, wait, I didn`t understand, say it again, say it again. That`s very frustrating.
So, that was kind of disjointed as it came out. Then when the defense is asking knees questions, she doesn`t want to answer those questions. A lot of them she thinks are redundant, a lot of them thinks she thinks they`re stupid. She lets people know. I mean, she lets out the emotions that I think 95 percent of witnesses on the stand feel but they hold them inside.
PINSKY: Well, Loni, and I`m going to let Jenny comment on this -- one of those feelings I felt coming out of her was contempt. She showed contempt for the questioners.
COOMBS: That`s right. Before Jenny jumps in, which is another thing we as parents of teenagers know that when teenagers get irritated, contempt, frustrated at being confronted, sometimes they will say thing that aren`t necessarily true. They`ll just give you the answer they want because they know (INAUDIBLE) --
PINSKY: But - -
COOMBS: -- or they start shortening their answers or starting get defiant. So they`re reacting --
PINSKY: I get it. Jenny, I wonder if that`s going to read properly with the jury.
HUTT: I think the jury is going to feel compassion for her. It`s a tough thing she`s doing up on the stand and I too might get irritated at the defense attorney if I were an 18-year-old or 17-year-old or 19-year-old girl in her position.
I just -- and to the relationship that she had with Trayvon via text message and the thousands of texts, listen as the mother of a teenage boy and girl, I get it. They text a lot, they`ve text kids they`ve met one time in person and then the texts can go on for months.
Mark, before I go with you, I want to ask Jean, though, did this -- did this read with the jury in could you tell what was going on in terms of how they were reacting as some of those emotions coming out of Rachel?
CASAREZ: You know, they were just focused but they`re going to get a jury instruction that says they cannot base their decision on emotion. And the devil is going to be in the details with this witness testimony, I`m talking about the time codes of the phone call and when he says Trayvon says what and what George Zimmerman said to the emergency operator at what time. Phone records critical to boost or impeach her credibility.
EIGLARSH: I want to defend the witness on one point. She is not sophisticated in the means of court. She just knows, wait a second, that`s the prosecutor, he`s the one doing the right thing and that`s the guy who`s defending the man who shot my friend.
So, yes, she naturally -- I would her to have some disdain for him. To his credit, Mr. Knock-knock joke attorney, is keeping his demeanor where it needs to be. If he turned it up even a teeny bit, they would turn on him more than I turned on him after that ridiculous opening statement.
MARTIN: Mark, I don`t like that word sophisticated.
EIGLARSH: Change it to whatever word you want.
MARTIN: Let`s just say she`s not a professional witness.
EIGLARSH: I`ll go with that. OK.
PINSKY: I`m going to -- let me throw a little polemic into the mix here. Maybe she`s somebody who really doesn`t want to be involved in this and is using any means she has to sort of push it -- she didn`t ask to be in the middle of this and this is how a high school age kid --
PINSKY: High school kid will go to lying an manipulating and distorting to get out f those things they don`t want to be in the middle of this.
SKOLNIK: Every step of the way, she`s tried not to be involved in this case. She did not want to be involved. She did not want to be known as the person who was the last person to talk to Trayvon Martin.
She`s carrying this weight. She`s carrying this burden of pain that this she obviously is dealing with in court to Don West, who -- I have to say, Don West in the very beginning used the tactic of asking her to, you know, go over telephone calls and ask her to confirm these calls which upset her at the very beginning.
So, he knows what he`s doing to get her upset and using these tactics tickets to pain that this she obviously is dealing with in court to don west.
Vi to say, don west in the very beginning used the tactic to ask her to confirm the calls which upset her at the very beginning. He`s using the tack tickets to rattle her as a young teenage girl, and she doesn`t want to be there.
PINSKY: All right. Next up. Thank you guys. The behavior bureau is here to tell us what they think about the testimony today.
And later, the trial of the trust fund kid. We got our hands on some texts from the girl before she was killed that will tell an interesting tale.
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFEID MALE: The next thing that you heard him say was why are you following me.
JEANTEL: The next thing I heard I had closed the door and I had said, Trayvon, yes, why are you following me? Yes. You`re right. You can go. You can go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sorry. It takes me a little bit of time sometimes to come up with the next question.
JEANTEL: You can go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It`s time for the behavior bureau.
Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt.
And joining the two of us, Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on Young Turks Network, clinical and forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt, attorney Areva Martin and psychotherapist Robi Ludwig, author or "Till Death Do us Part."
Now we just heard Jean Casarez tell us about the relationship between Trayvon and Rachel. I`m going to go around the horn her and ask you guys if you have some sense of what that relationship was all about.
I`ll start with you, Samantha.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I think they`re genuine friends. I really quickly want to state that I believe Rachel. I`ll tell you why I believe Rachel. She did not sensor their conversation.
She stated that Trayvon told her she was being followed by a creepy cracker. I think if she wanted to make it look like that Trayvon was lying, she would try to paint Trayvon in the best light possible. And therefore, her statement shows that George Zimmerman was the aggressor in my opinion.
CHERYL ARUTT, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, I agree with Samantha. And as one someone who works with trauma, I have to say that I see this high school girl not wanting to be there, getting very triggered by the reminders of that day, filled with survivor guilty, of being the last one who spoke to him and not even being able to bring herself to see his body or go to the wake.
She`s devastated, doesn`t want to be there and he`s trying to hang in there and do the right thing.
HUTT: Yes. I mean, to your point exactly, Cheryl. Can you imagine being on the phone with somebody and then they`re gone? Can you imagine what this must be like for this young girl? She hasn`t gone through this before.
PINSKY: Yes, Areva, I`ve heard your opinion on this. I`m going to skip to hear Robi. But I`ve got to go to you, Areva in a second.
Robi, go ahead.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes. No, I was just going to say if you look at the body language of this woman, you could tell that she is really disturbed by her experience. And I don`t get the sense that she is making anything up. She seems like he`s very straightforward. That this situation has been devastating for her and I think she comes off as a very, very credible witness. Job well done.
PINSKY: Areva, I want to get at something that is sort of an intangible here. And it is a really tough topic for me to articulate. A producer of mine tried to help me see this woman through the perspective on an African-American in that part of the world, now in high school, a young girl who is now in the middle of a storm.
What -- do non-African Americans can they really understand what that means to her girl? Are African Americans experiencing her differently? Do you think that people as they watch this, this is sort of -- throwing a little stick of dynamite in her because I think people are not experiencing this girl in a uniform way.
MARTIN: I`m so glad that you trust me enough, Dr. Drew, to answer on behalf of all of the African Americans in the world.
PINSKY: I hope you can do that.
MARTIN: As you know, I don`t. I`ll tackle this for you.
You know I think one thing that everyone needs to know -- this young girl is being besieged by not just the prosecutors and defense attorneys. There`s a team of attorneys working on behalf of the attorney. If you`ve never had any interaction with the criminal justice system or the lawyers, now, all of the sudden, you have the top attorneys in this nation who where calling on you.
And, of course, no one is telling her to lie. Everyone wants her to tell the truth but everyone wants her to say something that`s going to be helpful to their side. So, she`s being pulled in so many directions. So, I think the African American community is rooting for her.
We`re saying, job well done. You`re standing up to all this pressure. And you`re telling the truth that is going to get this conviction, this guilty conviction which we think is the appropriate conviction in this case.
So, yes, to your point, I think the African American community is quite pleased, we are proud of the job this young lady is doing.
PINSKY: OK. Jenny, you are nodding your head yes. Do you want to follow up on that?
HUTT: I do. Because here at HLN where I am in New York, the woman who is helping me is a young African American 22-year-old woman who brings me in the studio each time I`m here, and she watched it with me earlier today and have the same exact feeling.
She believes this witness, she feels for this witness and likes her a lot. So --
PINSKY: But, Robi, this is to my point. I think other people can`t really empathize with her are feeling the frustration, the contempt more and seeing that. Do you agree?
LUDWIG: Are you talking about people who are nonblack who might distrust her message? Oh OK.
I was trying to understand what you`re saying. Listen --
PINSKY: What I`m saying is I think there are people who can`t emphasize as easily as this girl and they sort of see her as off putting and we`re going to hear people talking about her that way out in the world.
LUDWIG: It`s interesting. I guess, you know, for people who are in a different camp, they might be inclined to see anyone who supports, you know, Trayvon Martin as coming off as off-putting.
But I have to say, clearly, I`m not a black woman, I find this woman really credible. And I can certainly empathize with her and see her trauma.
So, I don`t know if that`s the case. I don`t if there`s just a Zimmerman camp and a Trayvon Martin camp and that`s what`s contributing to how this witness is being experienced.
AREVA MARTIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: We knew race was going to be an important factor in this case, Dr. Drew.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Yes.
MARTIN: And now, with respect to the witnesses, I think you`re right. We`re going to hear people talking about the witnesses and the issue of race is going to come into those conversations as well.
PINSKY: That`s right. And if we don`t talk about it here, we`re not being -- I don`t think we`re being complete, maybe not being responsible. I think`s incumbent upon me to ask different points of view on how people experience this young girl. It`s -- many of us are mental health professionals here on this panel, and it`s easy.
We`re, you know, trained in being empathic. I mean, that`s what we do all day. And yes, it`s easy to empathize with her emotions. But to understand her not wanting to be in this, her line to get away from it. It`s easy for somebody to go, hey, she`s a liar. It`d be easy -- because you may not understand her perspective. Cheryl, go ahead.
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Dr. Drew, I just - - I was really struck by how, here are these older established men -- White attorneys, these white men, with with this young woman on the stand and I just had the sense they had absolutely no idea what Rachel`s life is like. Rachel was talking on the stand. Being in the --
PINSKY: Cheryl, that is my point. That`s exactly my point.
PINSKY: And I`m not sure I fully get it either. I want to understand it and people aren`t talking about it.
ARUTT: I think it`s important to talk about and to realize that people who are in different circumstances may view things in different ways and to understand each other better.
PINSKY: Yes. I think --
MARTIN: And Dr. Drew, can I just say as a lawyer, you know, these trials are battlefields. So, these lawyers are going to use whatever they can. So, if that White male lawyer can rattle this witness, that is his job. And He`s going to go after her and he`s going to try to rattle her. So, we also have to stand up to that and expect that`s going to happen with every witness that takes that stand.
PINSKY: OK. You guys are going to join me again later in the show on another topic. So, what we`re going to do next is talk about the trust fund kid murder trial. He was allegedly visiting escort website just hours before his girlfriend died. You`re going to hear that evidence.
And later, is there a conspiracy of silence amongst the adults in the Baby Elaina case. Stay with us.
DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST: Oh my gosh! My girlfriend`s dead.
ANNE PEYTON BRYANT, ATTORNEY: We learned that the cause of Sylvie`s death was strangulation and forced drowning.
PINSKY: Are these the hands of a killer?
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I`m looking at the weapon, his bare hands. And what an animal to kill your girlfriend with our own bare hands. You`re sleeping with the enemy.
LLOYD: I think we`re looking at the signed confession through Nicolas` hands. And Drew, this is why professional hit men wear leather gloves.
SCHACHER: I hope Nicholas Brooks listened real hard today when the medical examiner stated that Sylvie Cachay (ph) died from strangulation and drowning. And good luck, Nicholas Brooks, because you`re going to spend a long time in jail. No one is buying your defense.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, Samantha Schacher, and Attorney Mark Eiglarsh from SpeaktoMark.com. We`re going to get off Zimmerman for a few minutes here, but just a reminder that HLN has got wall-to-wall coverage of the Zimmerman trial. We will stay on top of it, but we have just so much interesting material on this trial and the Baby Elaina case that we wanted to update you.
So, stay with us here. Samantha, the more we hear, the worst it looks for Nicholas Brooks. You got the Sylvie`s wet sock with his DNA on the outside. It`s looking bad, don`t you agree?
SCHACHER: It`s looking really bad. I mean, her socks, her wet socks with her DNA on the inside and Nicholas Brooks` DNA on the outside were found on the other side of the room? I mean, come on. This is insane. This guy is an animal and I can`t wait until he gets into jail for the rest of his life because prisoners don`t take too kindly to men who murder women. He`s going to get his.
PINSKY: Attorney Anne Peyton Bryant is here with us for an update on today`s testimony. She supports Sylvie`s family. She was in the courtroom. Peyton, what did you see today?
BRYANT: Today, we learned that an investigator from the DA`s office who took the internet history of Sylvie`s computer found that even in the days and hours, even hours before she died, there were several hits to escort sites.
PINSKY: Wait a minute, I want to repeat this. Sylvie died, the early morning of the hours of September 9th, is that correct?? And then, we have someone on her computer looking at escorts, prostitution websites the night of the 8th. Is that right, Peyton?
BRYANT: It`s actually December 8th, 2010. And the hits were on both December 1st and then again on December 8th. You see it about 6:40 and then again at 8:40. And we know from, you know, other testimony that she was really, really upset about finding out that he used prostitutes. And, from what I can see, you know, it certainly appears that that evening this was a major issue between them.
PINSKY: Jenny, I see you have a little apoplectic fit. Did I lay this one out there just for you? Have at it, Jenny?
JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: I just -- listen, of course, I`m having apoplectic fit. I mean, the whole situation is tragic and awful on both sides of it. This was such an uber dysfunctional relationship, Dr. Drew. You have -- you have this sensational girl who`s got such promise and such a future in it with this monster who then she`s also making him do things like write apology letters after she finds him looking for hookers and going -- I mean the whole thing is a disaster, and then, he kills her.
PINSKY: Well, interestingly -- yes. Interestingly, what I`ve got -- I want -- if you guys at the control room could cut for me to the text we have. If we can get to that, because there is -- we actually have some texts where Sylvie, herself -- here we go. Here she is struggling herself saying "I know I`m doing the right thing, but it`s hard when I need and want to take care of him. I don`t even think he loved me."
Then she goes on to say something even sort of more -- there it is. "I`m in sick -- what I think she says I am sick -- "letting him go come over, so mad at myself. Started crying." Peyton, was this in court today? This all came out today, is that correct?
BRYANT: Those are just two of many, many text messages that one of her very best friends were going back and forth between her and the days and months before this relationship ended so tragically. And, it was really heartfelt. Her friend actually began to cry. You know, it appears that she was the last person to send Sylvie a message ore hear from her. She just had this emotional struggle to leave this relationship. It was really very emotional today to hear her testify.
PINSKY: Mark, I want to get to you before I unleash Samantha and Jenny again. This looks bad from a legal standpoint, right? Why aren`t they making a plea deal?
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: Well, sometimes, they don`t offer anything or what they offer is not a plea deal but more of an ultimatum, a declaration of wars I call it sometimes when I don`t like what they`re offering. You know, these text messages further support my theory that this was codependency between the two.
PINSKY: oh, for sure.
EIGLARSH: You know, when somebody drops a bowling ball on their foot and the other person yells ouch, you know? it`s typically found in the relationship between people who are users, addicts like him, and someone there who feels like it`s their mission to support them in spite of their prostition and drug addiction and all the other things that go along with - -
PINSKY: I`m going to give Samantha and Jenny the last word. Samantha, go.
SCHACHER: I want to hear your expert opinion really quickly, Dr. Drew, on why you think she felt the need to take care of him almost like he was a little child.
PINSKY: Well, it`s often -- sometimes, it can just happen. It could be the (ph) right alchemy of two people, but oftentimes, it`s how we fit in our relationships with our parents. There`s a book called "Women Who Love Too Much." There`s a book called "Overcoming Love Addiction." You can learn about these things there. Co-dependent no more.
It`s all very similar territory and those are lay books that can help people understand these kinds of topics. Jenny, finish us up.
HUTT: Yes. Listen, we always -- you always sort of poke fun at me that you learn a lot, but I get it. I like guys and cared about guys that just didn`t warrant my affections and certainly didn`t warrant my compassion. Thankfully, I got out.
PINSKY: Jenny, well, I`m going to say it`s normal for a teenage girl, 18 to 22-year-old. I`ve met your husband. You`ve done good. You`ve got out of that pattern.
HUTT: I love him. He`s phenomenal.
PINSKY: But that`s the point. It`s not normal for a grown woman to be continued to do this. And that`s what Mark is talking about there.
Next up, guys -- thank you very much -- Baby Elaina has been gone for 25 days, so far. Her mother`s aunt is here to tell us what she believed may have happened to her.
PINSKY: Baby Elaina is now missing for 25 case days. Her mother had been indicted for obstructing justice. In just a minute, I`ll be speaking with Angela`s aunt. She has information about what may have happened to this child. First, take a look at this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The search Baby Elaina Steinfurth (ph) continues.
NANCY GRACE, HLN ANCHOR: The search for Baby Elaina goes on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where is Elaina?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The search continues for Baby Elaina.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Angela came out of the home, she told me that Elaina was missing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I asked her what do you mean Elaina is gone? And she says, she`s not in the house anywhere.
GRACE: There were anywhere from six to eight people adults in the home at the time and nobody saw anything?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: BS.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I told her to call the police and everybody else that knew her and she just looked up at me and said why.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People are pointing fingers at me and they don`t even know what`s going on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s guilty of not taking care of that baby like she should have.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She woke up and the baby already had a black eye.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her and her boyfriend were fighting because of the way he was treating my children.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dried blood under her nose.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s a bump on the head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE There was no medical attention given.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When there`s violence in the home like this and the child is being abused, it`s devastating.
PINSKY: And the behavior bureau is back, Attorney Areva Martin joins the behavior bureau, Samantha Schacher, host of Pop Trigger in Young Turks Network, clinical and forensic psychologist, Cheryl Arutt, and psychotherapist, Robi Ludwig.
Samantha, first to you. Angela asked an interesting question when her own family told her to call the police because her baby was missing, she asked why.
SCHACHER: Because she knew where the baby was. I believe that she still knows where Baby Elaina Is or what happened to Baby Elaina. She`s either covering for herself or somebody else.
PINSKY: Well, speaking of that, we`re going to look at a brief reenactment here of what happened when Angela -- as Angela says happened the day that her baby came up missing. Baby Elaina missing. Here now, I show you, is the house where Baby Elaina was staying with mom. There we are. Eight other people were there. Stephen and Angela put Baby Elaina down for a nap.
He goes out to buy cigarettes. Hang on, you`ll see where that happens. He did go out to buy cigarettes. T.J., Elaina`s father, comes to get the two girls 30 minutes later. There they come. He gets one of the daughters. They had a little altercation there. That` our similar language for alteration. He gets one. But Angela refuses to give him the other, give him Elaina.
T.J.leaves with the older daughter, but then, he returns with his father in an attempt to get Elaina. There they are now. This is now T.J. Sr. and his son, another similar language breaks out, an altercation. She goes back in. She comes out. She doesn`t know what to do, comes out. She goes in the house, she comes out, and says she -- by the way 20 minutes later, says the baby is gone. Jenny, what do you make of all this?
HUTT: Yes, There`s -- I agree with Samantha. I think she has to know what happened with that baby. I mean, my sense is something not great, Dr. Drew. And, I just -- i can`t -- it`s very tough more me as a mom, because on the one hand, I don`t want to blame this mother without knowing all the information, but as a mother, my primary goal in this life is to have my children be breathing longer than i am.
That`s really all that matter to me when I put my head down at night. So, this whole thing just it cuts right to my core.
PINSKY: It`s very distressing. Cheryl --
MARTIN: Dr. Drew, I want to blame this mother.
PINSKY: Go ahead. You want to blame who?
MARTIN: I do want to blame this mother, because even if this mother didn`t kill the baby which we don`t have any evidence of that, the mother`s responsibility both morally and legally is to take care of that child. And there is something called child endangerment.
PINSKY: Well --
MARTIN: And as a parent, you have a legal obligation to keep a child safe. She didn`t do that. So, the fact that that 18-month-old baby can be missing is a problem and I do want to blame her, and I want the law take -- I want her punished for that.
PINSKY: Well, I think it`s moving along down that path, but Cheryl, before I go to break real quickly, in the previous, the Brooks case, we were talking about co-dependency. That`s kind of what`s going on here with her and her boyfriend, King, a lot -- put her not to endanger herself but her children.
ARUTT: Well, that could be what`s going on, but, it could also be a domestic violence situation. We heard a friend say something a couple of days ago about how she had been threatened that if she did call from medical attention, that she would be next. That that`s what the boyfriend say.
PINSKY: Hold on.
ARUTT: I don`t know if that`s true.
PINSKY: We hear a lot of funny allegations out there. What I`m going to do is I`m going to speak to her aunt coming up after the commercial break and she is going to tell us what she knows. And she knows quite --
ARUTT: I got ahead of us. Sorry.
PINSKY: Don`t want to miss this.
PINSKY: There she is the day before but there`s more that was going on that meets the eye.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt and the behavior bureau. Now, Tammy Mories is the aunt of Baby Elaina`s mom. She joins us now. Tammy, thank you so much for joining us.
VOICE OF TAMMY MORIES, ANGELA STEINFURTH`S AUNT: You`re welcome.
PINSKY: Did you speak to Angela after Elaina went missing? And if so, what did she tell you?
MORIES: Yes, I did. When I`ve seen her, I walked up to her, I gave her a hug, she hugged me back. She was crying. She said, "Aunt Tammy, my baby is gone." I said, "what do you mean your baby is gone?" She says, "she`s missing." And I said, well, "where is she, Angela?" She said, "I don`t know. Somebody in that house took her."
Then she continued telling me the baby had a bump on its head, had a black eye, and had blood coming out of its nose and I said "what do you mean? Who was hitting on the baby?" And she wouldn`t really tell me that.
PINSKY: Now, you also told our producers that Angela was kicked out of her mom`s house just weeks before the baby went missing.
PINSKY: Did Angela express concerns about the health and safety of the child prior to all this?
PINSKY: So, the environment she was in -- we`ve seen that squalor. In fact, if you guys can show some footage of the house. That`s her leaving -- this is the neighbor`s footage. There`s footage of her in this horrible living environment. Robi, I`ll give you chance to discuss this. There`s the dog feces in the utility room, the sewage on the floor. It`s not the environment that you really want a couple of young children to be exposed to.
MORIES: No. That is disgusting.
LUDWIG: No, absolutely. Not.
MORIES: That is really. I couldn`t live with myself.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Robi.
LUDWIG: This sounds like a horrific situation. And one wonders if the mother was loving but really was out of control in terms of wasn`t able to take control of her situation. And it does sound like she`s covering up. She does know what`s going on, but she`s covering up for some reason that she knows a lot more than she`s saying. And that does tend to happen in very abusive relationships.
She still has a responsibility as a mother to say everything that she knows because her response to her child being missing is not the normal response. That`s not how mothers respond. They would be hysterical, calling the police, working with the police to find out what happened.
PINSKY: Tammy --
MORIES: -- because I know I would.
PINSKY: Right. And so, did you have concerns such as --
MORIES: Yes. I just don`t understand it. I cannot understand what my niece is doing.
PINSKY: Why she would cover for people in that house?
PINSKY: And my eye looking at the squalor in that house tells me there might be substances in there, too, and that maybe that she`s covering some of that. Who knows? How is the search going now. I`m up against the clock. Are things progressing or is it pretty much stalemate?
MORIES: It`s pretty much the same.
PINSKY: I`m sorry.
MORIES: No Baby Elaina yet.
PINSKY: Tammy, thank you so much for joining us. We got to take a quick break. Thank you, panel. "Last Call" is next.
MORIES: You`re welcome.
PINSKY: Jenny, a packed show tonight, but I know you will be watching the Zimmerman trial very carefully. We will continue to cover that here, and of course, HLN, wall-to-wall.
HUTT: Yes. Well, figuring out what exactly happened is what I think we`re all looking forward to getting to the real answer with the Zimmerman case.
PINSKY: It`s going to be interesting. Thank you all for watching and thanks to all my panelists.
More on the star witness of the Zimmerman trial right now on "HLN After Dark."