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Physician's Assistant on Stand In Zimmerman Trial

Aired June 28, 2013 - 17:00   ET



We're continuing our live coverage of the George Zimmerman second-degree murder trial. We just heard from Lindsay Folgate, a physician's assistant, who treated George Zimmerman the day after he shot and killed Trayvon Martin. Now, there's going to be some more questioning. Let's listen and see what's going on.



BLITZER: That's the criminal defense attorney, Mark O'Mara standing there. They're cuing up, apparently some pictures or video on that computer, that laptop over there. Martin Savidge had been watching what's been going on. It's been a pretty dramatic day, Martin. And I want to get to you in a moment, but let's listen in to what they're talking about.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Actually, it will be a few minutes before I need this. Thank you. Good afternoon, ma'am.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to focus -- again, he was a patient of yours for a while before the event where he came to you on February 27th, correct?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But just to start with the last question first, he did not have any back pain caused by back injury before this event, correct?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The back injury was actually internal, concern that showed itself as a back pain?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Correct. We believe it was likely related to the constipation when he complained about that in the past.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, when he came to you on the 27th, that was the first time he had ever complained of back pain?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, this was unrelated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Let's focus, then, on that night.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The day -- make sure I do this right so give me a moment.

This -- oh, yes, thank you very much, your honor. Is this close to how he presented to you that day?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From what I recall, similar.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. This was just to orient you. This was taken the night before.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maybe 12 hours or so before you saw him.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And was that pretty similar to the way he presented to you?



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a different picture when you're seeing it on a picture rather than up close, but --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Certainly. Certainly.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I apologize for that, but --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sorry, I'm going to bounce back and forth a little bit now. You probably have not seen this picture before, have you?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If this person presented himself, you know that to be George Zimmerman?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. If this person had presented himself to you looking like this, what would you have done for him?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If he had come to our office looking like that, we would have cleaned the wounds so we could better evaluate what the type of injuries that are and then go about the same process that we went through and then order the testing based off of that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And if you look at this photograph as compared to the one we just identified, I would like to focus your attention to the nose area.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection to relevance and also she didn't see him like that, so I object as to speculation at this point.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let me hear the rest of the question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you agree that the swelling that you saw in that picture has gone down from the way it is here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It looks like that it's decreased slightly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that normal? Let's say that there is a four-hour difference, five-hour difference between this picture and that picture. Is that a normal sort of receding of swelling?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It depends on what he's using to help keep the swelling down. So, maybe, if he was using ant anti-inflammatories or icing the areas, then potentially, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, would you expect an injury of this significance to look like that five hours later, is that normal?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once it's cleaned up?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But would you agree that in this picture, that the nose is, in fact, more swollen than it is in that picture?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It does appear to be, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why is that? What happens to the body that it heals itself like that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The body naturally tries to take care of itself if it can. And the body responds to trauma in a certain way. And that is why the body produces swelling and then as the body is recovering, that's how the swelling body resolves. Again, it also depends on the certain extraneous things that you're using like anti- inflammatories or ice to the area. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So while this may look as though it is now a bone protrusion to the right side of the nose, it's not actually a bone protruding out there, is it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's unlikely in the sense that it resolves and looks like that picture later.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yet, the body swells up at point the injury, does it not?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It does, it can. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And it does that in response to the trauma of the hit, correct?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And it does that by swelling and the swelling -- if you would just sort of tell us why the body swells or how the body swells up in the area of trauma.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The body itself is reacting to the impact of something that's happened. So, certain blood can rush to the area or more fluid underneath the skin can rush to that area and that's what produces the effect of the swelling.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Including lymph fluid, doesn't that sort of wander over and white blood cells?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They can. Potentially. That's the purpose of the lymph system to help with infection or foreign bodies, things like that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Particularly when we know that there's bleeding happen, correct?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bleeding, you would agree, sort of indicates broken blood vessels.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It can. Yes. Blood vessels or capillaries.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And would you agree that there is bleeding inside in the naris or just --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Likely, there was bleeding inside the naris if you see it coming down the front of the face. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Where's that blood go if you just standing up like I am and my nose is bleeding?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Normally gravity will pull it down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How about I'm laying on my back? Where is the blood going to go?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What will happen is you can swallow some of that back down your throat.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Actually, it can go into the sinuses as well, can't it?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And as it goes back the sinuses, it goes into the back of your throat?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you actually can be swallowing your own blood, correct?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can. That will give you the taste in your mouth, correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The swelling that we've just spoken about is the body's initial reaction to trauma, correct?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And it only can last maybe just a few hours, correct?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It depends on the level of the trauma and the patient, but yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does that diminish the fact that the body was, in fact, traumatized as we see in this picture?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Meaning does it make it any less plausible that the body was attacked?



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. It's a natural reaction for the body to begin its healing process immediately, correct?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And of course, this face was cleaned up after the blood was all removed. Well, can you see -- you can barely still see the cut just to the top of the bridge of the nose there, correct?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you acknowledge that there was, in fact, a larger laceration or cut on the nose here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There appears to be, but it appears to have blood surrounding the areas.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Again, once you clean it up, it looks a little bit better?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you seen this picture before?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Would the scalp bleed in a fashion like this from those two lacerations?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It can. The scalp, again, is very vascular meaning there are plenty of blood vessels on the scalp surface that could cause bleeding like that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And bleed down the back that way?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Again, gravity would start to pull that down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Let's spend a moment, if you would. I want to show you some other pictures of Mr. Zimmerman that night. Now, can you see that photograph?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Do you note additional areas of swelling on this picture that you may not have noticed on your physical evaluation? I'm sorry, your honor. That is state's exhibit 57. Let me point to you, do you see anything in this area of swelling?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is swelling there That i can see, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Would that also possibly have resolved itself in the few hours -- in the 12 hours between this picture and when you saw him?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It could have, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Can you see an area up here that seems to be misshapen?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the photograph, yes, I see that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Would that also be an area of swelling?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's normally an area of swelling. We call those scalp hematomas where blood can pool under the skin.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell me how that occurs. How does a scalp hematoma occur?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hematoma can occur through trauma. So, some sort of trauma to the head that resulted in the collection of blood there or fluid there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In effect in sort of layman's terms, if I was to smash my head against something, let say I hit this part, the trauma would cause blood or maybe lymph system fluid to flood that area?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Similar to the nose, it would go there, do its job and then sort of recede?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that's what causes swelling as we know it?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that's what caused it here? Maybe.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that's what caused it up here?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You see these, right?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And those were the lacerations that you identified?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Those were the two. Correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. What is the potential outcome from head trauma like that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It again depends on the physical exam of the patient and you base a lot of that off the physical exam of the patient. But any sort of head trauma can result in an internal injury, meaning bleeding into the brain, skull fractures.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And an internal hematoma, is that a dural hematoma?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It depends on where the blood is actually. You can have an epidural or subdural hematoma.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Maybe not have external notice, correct? You can have an internal hematoma, subdural hematoma, epidural hematoma, bleeding beneath the scalp that will resolve itself, correct?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An epidural or subdural hematoma would be below the skull. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's the difference between a hematoma, which is above the skull between the skin.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. Hematoma outside the skull --


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- resolve itself sort of between the skull and the skin.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then, subdural and epidural is you actually have gone below the skull and you just in that dura which is what cushions (ph) the brain.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you can have -- injuries like this could certainly cause an epidural or subdural hematoma, correct?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not necessarily the lacerations, themselves, but if there was head trauma, completely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sorry. So, if I just went up to this head and cut it with a razor blade or a scalpel, that would not, you would imagine, cross a subdural or epidural hematoma?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But if I took that same skull, unless, I smashed it on concrete, sufficiently enough to cause that injury. So, smash might be (INAUDIBLE), but getting that injury by having your head hit against cement, could that cause a subdural epidural hematoma?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That could, depending on how hard the impact was.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And that would, in fact, be an injury below the skull in the area where the brain is.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Which is one of the reasons why you do what you do in your evaluation to make sure that he can still focus his eyes and still speak because your concern at that point with any head trauma that there may be some brain injury.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And your charge then at that point is to rule out that possibility, though, you would agree that possibility exists whenever you have an injury like this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Close-up of the same thing. You see the swelling again up on this area and right in here.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell me, can you see that injury up there or that occurrence up there?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can see what maybe appears to be an abrasion of the scalp.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that -- what would you call that? That punctate a bruising?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It can be or it depends on what the surface was that may be caused the injury and it could be an abrasion, which is basically just a layer of the skin coming off.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are punctate injuries? Please explain that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Punctate injuries would be injuries to the blood vessels themselves causing punctate bleeding or small sort of capillary bursts like that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would that occur if you had your head hit against something as irregular but flat as concrete?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that a way to occur to get those mini- bruising, bruisings all over the place.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If it was hit on concrete or anything like that, the rough surface of that could have caused that, too.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Consistent with it being hit on concrete, isn't it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It can be consistent with that whether or not that is what it was struck on it. I'm sure that can happen on multiple other surfaces as well. It could be consistent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. If Mr. Zimmerman were to come to you and say he had that injury and it occurred because his head was hit on concrete, would it be consistent?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Speculation --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think she's already testified.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. I'll move on, your honor.

Did you notice any injury right there?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't recall that injury.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you tell us what that looks like to you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It looks like it may be a scratch of the skin or an abrasion of the skin as well.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And now, let's look up here at that injury there. What is that -- can you identify what that is?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It looks like there may be some mild swelling there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Another bruise?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's hard to tell if there's an actual bruise or discoloration of the skin, but it does appear there's some swelling.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sorry, would we just characterize that in layman's term that's a bump on the head?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How would that come -- how would you get something like that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Again, it could come from hitting your head on any sort of surface potentially or being struck by something.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Can you also see any type of punctate injury right around here?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As far up as here? You see that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It appears to be.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And as down low as here.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As what you testified before, sort of the same?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It appears to be. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I'm sorry, your honor. I'm not identifying the exhibit. That's no. 66 that the witness is testifying concerning.

And do you see this area right there of swelling? From this ridge here down to this ridge. Can you see that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's hard to tell on this picture from a side view.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Can you see this injury here and can you identify what that is?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection as to leading. In this aspect in terms of testifying -- Mr. O'Mara testifying those injuries there without this witness saying that there is.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sustained as to the word injury.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Rephrase your question.


Can you see anything in this area that I'm circling?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There appears to be an abrasion there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And, again, an abrasion consistent with that head being hit on concrete?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It can be consistent with that, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that was 68, your honor, if I didn't identify it. Now, looking at state's exhibit 69. Let me ask you to pay attention to this area right here. Is that the abrasion that you were identifying earlier?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It appears to be the same.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And just to the -- going back, can you see that as an area of swelling as well?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It does appear to be swelling. Unfortunately, some of that, you have to take into account on a physical exam of how that area feels during the time. So, it's difficult to get in a picture. You have certain head shapes as well.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And, again, with -- this may well have resolved itself in the 12 hours or so the time when the picture was taken and when you saw him? Correct?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It could potentially have, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And do you see similar -- what do you see up in this area on the, what would be above his left eye? Can you see that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's slightly shaded, but possibly another abrasion up there as well.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And can we see then the lacerations in the area around the lacerations on the side?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can see those, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you see -- is that the area that we talked about before with the misshapen skull at the top?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It appears to be.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, let's look at this side to orient to state's exhibit 70 and his right side of his skull, correct?



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Again, it looks like it could be some swelling with the abrasions that we noted before.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And how about this area up here, additional --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Additional abrasions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would that abrasion, itself, come from its own strike upon something?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That would be hard to determine.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And how about the one up here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Again, it would be difficult to determine if it was from its own --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the one over here?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can we get now a better view of the misshapen area on the back of his skull from this perspective?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There appears to be possible swelling there or the misshape of the skull itself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. I think we've testified and this is state's exhibit 71. You've testified to these areas and also there's bruising up here, correct?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I might, exhibit 74. This is a close-up of the area of the lacerations. Can you better describe for me what you see here as far as additional areas of swelling around the lacerations?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There appears to be swelling around the lacerations, which would be consistent with a trauma that elicited the laceration itself. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meaning that whatever caused the laceration was also the same time the sort of compression injury that we talked about earlier?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that could cause the swelling, correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Consistent, all of it, with being hit on concrete, is it not?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It could be consistent, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the complaint was that that head was hit on concrete, would you consider that consistent with the injuries that you see?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you very much, your honor. For the lights, thank you.

Now, let's spend just a minute on the report itself. Mr. (INAUDIBLE) had already gone over it, so I'm just going to hit some high points on it, if I might. His vital signs, blood pressure, 130/80?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A concern for a 28-year-old?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Slightly high on the systolic side, but from what I remember in the past, he's never had a problem with high blood pressure before.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But not a good high blood pressure, right? You like to see it lower?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ideally, we like to see it 120/80 or less, but I wouldn't be a cause of concerned at 130.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is high. Ideally, we see this around 70 to 80.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Evidencing what to you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That there -- an increase pulse rate can related to stress or to trauma. They can also be related to multiple other things. Something to do with your heart, causing, you know, some sort of cardiac condition.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unless, again, not in tough shape.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's not we would like it to be.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meaning that he is clinically obese.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Correct, based on BMI classification.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And again, not healthy?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ideally, that's not the healthy range. Normally between 19 to 25 or 26.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It doesn't necessarily mean someone not athletic with the BMI of 31. It just means it's not at the ideal range of what the standards of health for BMI would be.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And you've gone through the actual injuries that you identify. We talked for a moment about the S.I. injury.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that injury consistent with falling on your back or I guess in the buttocks area did you say?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. When you get that type of S.I. pain? S.I. is --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sacroiliac, correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that's basically at the base of your spine.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's not necessarily right at the base of your spine. Your spine comes down in a straight. It would be where each side of the buttocks are. It would be directly in the center of that. So, you have one on each side.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And how does an injury like that occur?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An S.I. joint injury can occur through trauma or through a fall. Sometimes, people have S.I. joint from an improper stretching technique or through some sort of athletic type of performance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had reported to you that he was hit in the nose, correct?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By his attacker.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Correct. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was that consistent with the picture I showed you here of his nose or nasal injuries. Is that consistent with getting punched in the nose.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That would be consistent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And is the S.I. injury that he talked to you about consistent with being thrown on the ground on your back?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It would be consistent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The only way to really identify whether or not a nose is, quote, "broken" is with an x-ray, correct?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That would be the definitive way to decide if there was nasal fracture.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It would be a bit easier for you to be conclusive in the determination of broken nose if you actually saw a complete septal deviation, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Clinically, if there was more of a septal deviation, then, there could possibly be a more definite answer to that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, if the whole nose was literally pointed off in one direction or the other, pretty obvious that is a break, correct?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But short of that, then would you need to have an x-ray in order to get that accomplished?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that was the reason why you had referred him to an ENT?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To document what you could not document in your office.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't do nose or nasal or face x-rays in the office, correct?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We do not. It's not in our scope of practice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did he tell you that he wasn't going to go to the ENT because of the high deductible on his insurance policy?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't recall there being a discussion over a cost or deductible.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember him talking to you about what it would cost for that type of evaluation?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't recall that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Is that something that you would have noted or just a conversation with him?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He may have had that in a conversation that I don't recall. It also wouldn't change my opinion of where to send him or to not send him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you were firm in your opinion of a couple of things one that he needed to see an ENT for the nose injury.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even though it was reduced to better than the cleaned up picture we looked at, right?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because that went from this picture to that picture in four hours and you had another 12 hours of the swelling to go down.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But even still you wanted an ENT consult?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes because there can be residual effects of a nasal fracture if it's not taken care of.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you also suggested based upon the conversation you had with him that he should get a psychological consult, correct?



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was already seeing a psychologist. And in my professional opinion, if someone is to go through the sort of ordeal that he went through the night before what he's telling me, then I would recommend that anybody go see a psychologist.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he come across to you as though he was trying to make certain that you would document his injuries consistent with being attacked?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't recall that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Was he just reporting the symptoms as they seem to exist.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He wasn't -- from your perspective, he wasn't trying to use you as some shill to come up with an excuse or a reason or medical reason for his injuries, was he?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It did not appear that way.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Was, in fact, all his complaints documented by your evaluation?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And those injuries actually did exist, correct?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And in addition, the psychological concern that you had in your professional opinion, that existed as well, didn't it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It did and that would have existed for anybody who came in with what he was concerned about or what had taken place that night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Particularly as documented or supported by the injuries that he showed or exhibited to you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Supported by that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What we didn't note in the cleaned up picture, you know the one I'm talking about when I say that?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We didn't note any black eyes on that picture, did you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn't notice them from the picture, no.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So tell me, as the body begins to heal itself, we know that it rushes to the area of trauma, as you said.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then it sort of recedes.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, what's the timeline on those eyes to go black?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sometimes, the black eyes can become more apparent at a later date. That's not necessarily an initial event that happens. Most of the time swelling comes to the area and then the swelling may recede and then something like the black eyes can occur after that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because the black eyes are actually residual blood that has escaped the capillaries and just sort of pools in the soft pockets of under the eyes?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, you don't expect to see blood or a black eye a moment or ten minutes or an hour or even after a punch in the nose, do you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not necessarily that quickly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But was -- is it consistent that if he had gotten punched in the house, let's say 7:16 the night before, that when you saw him 11 a.m. in the morning that his eye could be blackened?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They could be, yes. It was consistent with what I saw in my physical exam.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And they were in fact two black eyes, correct?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mentioned a moment ago, you know, was he trying to sort of somehow make up or document significant injuries and I think you said he wasn't.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not from the impression that I had.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the other side, was he trying to even minimize his injuries and get it behind him? Did you get any of that feel with him telling you he wasn't going to an ENT, and he just wanted a note to get back to work?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't recall that per se, him having that certain effect.

O'MARA: And Mr. de la Rionda asked you about the bandage. Obviously you were taking that off. Was -- did that seem to be an appropriate bandaging to do for that injury?

FOLGATE: That was fine given that the skin edges were well approximated and the scalp lacerations were not that deep. I didn't feel like any -- if you're referring something to like a butterfly bandage or a butterfly stitch was necessary at the time.

O'MARA: Right. It wasn't -- you didn't look at that bandage like when we're kids or something, and just have a little, little cut in a four-inch by four-inch bandage, you didn't look at that and wonder why someone put a bandage that size on two injuries of that size, did you?

FOLGATE: No. O'MARA: Did it seem appropriate that it'd be bandaged?

FOLGATE: Yes. It was important to keep the lacerations covered.

O'MARA: And particularly, let's say, if it was a nursing student who was looking at that injury, would it make sense as a nursing student to cover an open wound?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Speculation.

O'MARA: I'll rephrase it. If you saw those wounds on the back of the head -- you know what we're talking about. If you saw those wounds, would you clean them off and put bandages over them?

FOLGATE: I would likely have them cleaned and if the patient desired, I would put a bandage over them. It doesn't necessarily have to be bandaged but there would be no problem with doing that to keep certain debris out of the area.

O'MARA: Right. And we talked a bit about what happens when you fall down and Mr. de la Rionda used himself as a model and I might use myself as a model that I may not get as injured because I have hair than someone who doesn't have hair? Is that --

FOLGATE: I don't know if that would necessarily be true, I guess it would depend on the thickness of your hair.


FOLGATE: But I don't think that you would be any less injured based on having hair or not having hair.

O'MARA: OK. It would be more apparent with somebody who back then didn't have hair to cover the injuries, but the injuries are what they are, correct?

FOLGATE: They are what they are. Yes.

O'MARA: And certainly whoever may have inflicted those injuries knew how much hair was on the body that they were inflicting the injuries on, correct?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Speculation.


O'MARA: Did you ask Mr. Zimmerman if he had cut his hair in the past 14 hours?

FOLGATE: I had not asked that question.

O'MARA: If I may have a moment, your honor?

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: All right. While the defense attorneys are consulting amongst themselves, let's bring in Sunny Hostin.

Sunny, it looks like a pretty powerful cross-examination for Mark O'Mara, the criminal defense attorney, making the case that Trayvon Martin was beating -- was beating up the -- George Zimmerman. Hold on for a moment, think about that. Let listen in.

FOLGATE: Thank you.

NELSON: Any redirect?

BERNIE DE LA RIONDA, STATE PROSECUTOR: You mentioned something that I was curious about in talking about the shape of the head.


DE LA RIONDA: I guess we all think the head is perfectly shaped, our skull. Is that always true?

FOLGATE: It's not necessarily always true.

DE LA RIONDA: Tell me a little bit about that if you could.

FOLGATE: Everybody's head shape is completely different. Obviously most people you don't notice because they have hair on their head so it depends on what that may look like, but everybody can have certain abnormalities of the skull.

DE LA RIONDA: So in other words, people may have a bump there just preexisting and it may not be caused by trauma?

FOLGATE: It could be, correct.

DE LA RIONDA: All right. So had you an opportunity. You were shown a lot of photographs. Can you pull that up? I'm sorry. It is? OK. Just go back. OK. You were shown a lot of photographs. I'm going to go through them real quickly. You're not saying that those were all stuff that occurred the day before or the night before, all that, are you?

FOLGATE: It would be hard to determine that based off just a photo. Most of that would be based off a physical exam as well.

DE LA RIONDA: Thank you. I think I'm through with the photographs, your honor. And my point is you actually saw him as a live person. In other words, you actually looked at his head.

FOLGATE: Correct.

DE LA RIONDA: Right? You looked at his head and he had less hair than Mr. Guy here, but you looked, I'm assuming, you didn't just kind of -- kind of glance. You actually looked at this head?

FOLGATE: Correct.

DE LA RIONDA: Right? To examine him.

FOLGATE: Correct.

DE LA RIONDA: And all you saw in your examination was two lacerations, correct?

FOLGATE: That was all I noted.

DE LA RIONDA: I'm saying, you didn't see -- you didn't document any other stuff that we've been talking about, all this trauma, you didn't -- you didn't notice that at all.

FOLGATE: At the time that was documented, I don't recall if there was some swelling that I didn't potentially possibly put in my note.

DE LA RIONDA: OK. At this time you recall or at that time that you recall did you notate any other swelling other than the lacerations?

FOLGATE: Those were the only two things that I noted.

DE LA RIONDA: OK. So -- and by the way, you mentioned, if you could, let's speculate and say that those were all traumas caused hematomas or whatever. Those were apparently cleaned up by the time they saw you, right? By the time he saw you the next day?

FOLGATE: The swelling was minimized. Yes.

DE LA RIONDA: OK. So what that took away, basically, was what? Maybe an aspirin or two or Tylenol or two or what? Or just did naturally?

FOLGATE: It depends. The body will help to react naturally and then also depends on what sort of, again, exogenous things you may be using.

DE LA RIONDA: So you're not seeing that as severe trauma in any way?

FOLGATE: I don't know if I would say it's not severe or not. I mean, he does have two scalp lacerations and I'm basing that off what his complaints are when he comes in.

DE LA RIONDA: His history in other words.

FOLGATE: Exactly.

DE LA RIONDA: But you only notated two lacerations in the whole?

FOLGATE: Those are the only things that I documented, yes.

DE LA RIONDA: And I apologized, you notated also his nose. But I'm talking about the back of his head or his skull. You only noticed two actual lacerations.

FOLGATE: Those were the most -- those were the things I was looking for the most because those were things that we discussed personally.

DE LA RIONDA: I see. And when you did the whole exam in terms of nausea or, I'm sorry, about dizziness, being able to be with his conscious or not, you ruled all of those out, no trauma to the head, correct?

FOLGATE: I'm ruling those out based on what he's telling me and then I then base it off my physical exam, depending on his neurological exam to make sure all of that seems appropriate.

DE LA RIONDA: And so you ruled all that out?

FOLGATE: It seemed like he was neurologically intact. Yes.

DE LA RIONDA: OK. So he didn't have a brain injuries, is what I'm going to.

FOLGATE: There -- it doesn't mean that you can't have a brain injury, meaning a concussion from a trauma, but it did not appear to be anything that would require imaging because he wasn't complaining of those specific symptoms.

DE LA RIONDA: And you also did not notice anybody. Correct? You didn't --

FOLGATE: Sorry. Can you rephrase the question?

DE LA RIONDA: No. He gave you a history in terms of no -- he wasn't complaining of trauma to his head, correct?

FOLGATE: He wasn't -- he did complain of trauma to his head meaning he had the lacerations.

DE LA RIONDA: I apologize.


DE LA RIONDA: But other than that?

FOLGATE: And again, the story that he told me as his head being struck against the ground so he did complain of head trauma but from what I'm looking at based on my physical exam and doing his neurological testing everything appeared to be intact and because of that I didn't order the additional testing.

DE LA RIONDA: Because if you had noted something, you would have ordered additional testing?

FOLGATE: At the time, exactly. I also mentioned that what are the signs to look for should something like that occur, and if that were to occur, then additional testing would be ordered.

DE LA RIONDA: And you never required him, is that correct?

FOLGATE: I was never notified of anything as a change.

DE LA RIONDA: OK. So did any of the injuries require anything protruding other than minor cleaning, et cetera?

FOLGATE: For the most part they required cleaning to the area. And then again, we don't know the definitive diagnosis of the nasal fracture which may have required additional treatment but that not completed.

DE LA RIONDA: And you recommended that he go to an ENT and he told you he wasn't going.

FOLGATE: At the time from what I recall, yes, he was not going to go.

DE LA RIONDA: And Mr. O'Mara asked you about, that he said or possibly said that he didn't have insurance? He -- you don't recall him ever saying that, do you?

FOLGATE: I don't recall that discussion.

DE LA RIONDA: And I think you notated already, but you did note in your records as to -- I'm sorry, February 27th that he came in because he needed a note for work, is that correct?

FOLGATE: Correct.

DE LA RIONDA: He didn't come into your office saying, I get all these head injuries, I can't think, I can't walk, I can't function? He didn't come in complaining about that, did he?

FOLGATE: That -- the major concern that was taken by the medical assistant was that he needed -- of what happened and then that he needed a return for work, yes.

DE LA RIONDA: You mentioned also that in terms of psychological that you suggested that he was also -- already seeing a psychologist, is that correct?

FOLGATE: He was established with a psychologist, yes.

DE LA RIONDA: OK. I'm sorry about that. Going back to August 19th, 2011, I don't know -- I removed that document. That was the first time you would have had contact with him?

FOLGATE: Correct.

DE LA RIONDA: Mr. Zimmerman talked about this exercise routine that he was taking mixed martial arts classes, right?

FOLGATE: Correct.

O'MARA: Objection. That would be outside the scope of cross- examination and this is re-direct.

NELSON: Sustained.

DE LA RIONDA: Your honor, I'll be glad to approach the bench regarding something that I want to show her. NELSON: Well, that wasn't brought up in cross-examination so it's outside the scope.

DE LA RIONDA: Yes, your honor, but -- may we approach the bench on another matter?

NELSON: Yes, you may.

BLITZER: All right. So while they're talking with the judge at the bench, let's bring back Sunny Hostin for a moment.

Sunny, when the -- during the cross-examination by the criminal defense attorney Mark O'Mara seemed to be making some strong points that Trayvon Martin was beating up George Zimmerman. Now on the re- direct by the prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda the argument is, well, maybe he wasn't injured all that severely.

Give us your analysis of what we've just heard over the past hour or so.

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, she's an important witness to the prosecution, that's why they called her. Not so much because she discussed his injuries, discussed looking at his nose and looking at the injuries on his head.

More so, Wolf, because she said that he admitted to her, George Zimmerman admitted to her that he had been taking classes and studying at an MMA gym, mixed martial arts gym, three times a week. I believe he described it as working out intensely at an MMA gym.

Now we know four of -- three of the witnesses, neighbor witnesses, said that they believe that Trayvon Martin was underneath George Zimmerman. The only witness that describes MMA-style punches says that George Zimmerman was on the bottom. So the prosecution, of course, needs to get into this because they want to show that that witness, John Good, who seemed to be very consistent was wrong. That it actually George Zimmerman with his MMA style training on top of Trayvon Martin pummeling him.

And that's why they're getting into this. And that's why Mark O'Mara is trying to really cross-examine her.

BLITZER: All right. Hold on for a moment. Bernie de la Rionda is continuing the questioning of Lindzee Folgate, the physician assistant who treated George Zimmerman the day after the shooting.

DE LA RIONDA: And finally, ma'am, what kind of symptoms would you expect to a gunshot wound of the heart? What kind of symptoms would that --

O'MARA: Objection, your honor. That would be outside -- actually outside his direct and outside my cross.

NELSON: Sustained.

DE LA RIONDA: Thank you. I have no further question. (CROSSTALK)

O'MARA: Just a couple because -- may I see the last page that you referenced to her? I have mine. And yours is --


O'MARA: Actually, what Mr. Zimmerman said to you not that he had done MMA three times a week correct. What he said was aerobics, right?

FOLGATE: That is what is written on the sheet. Correct.


FOLGATE: But then I go ahead and go into more detail of the patient when they're back in the office.

O'MARA: But when he talked about doing this type -- we're talking about aerobic exercise, are we not?

FOLGATE: When I would ask him what type of aerobic exercise then mixed martial arts would have been mentioned.

O'MARA: And medically speaking, would you agree that whatever he did just stopped the attack allowed him to survive it?

FOLGATE: It could have potentially, yes. Depends on the amount of trauma he was sustaining at the time.

O'MARA: So stopping the attack is what allowed him to survive it. Would you agree?

FOLGATE: It could have, yes.

O'MARA: OK, thank you. Nothing further.

NELSON: Would you agree to re-direct?

DE LA RIONDA: Would you agree that's pure speculation on your part?

FOLGATE: I wasn't there at the time of the event so I don't know the exact trauma that took place.

DE LA RIONDA: OK. Thank you very much.

NELSON: Can Miss Folgate be excused?

O'MARA: Yes, your honor.

NELSON: Thank you very much. You are excused.

Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to recess for the weekend. So while we're in recess until Monday morning at 9:00 a.m. I want to advise you again that you're not to discuss your case amongst yourselves or with anybody else. You're not to read or listen to any radio, television on newspaper report about the case. You're not to use any type of an electronic device to get on the Internet to do independent research about the case, people, places, things or terminology.

And finally you're not to read or create any e-mails, text messages, Twitter feed, blogs or social networking pages about the case. Do I have your assurance that you will abide by these instructions? OK. Let's then have a great weekend. Put your notes on face down and follow Deputy Jarvis (ph).

BLITZER: All right. So there you heard Judge Debra Nelson give the admonishment to the six women who are members of the jury, plus the alternates, to make sure they don't watch any TV, they don't listen to any radio, they don't get on social networks. They stay clear of any of the reporting that's been going on.

There's been a lot of testimony today. Some testimony relatively positive for the defense, some testimony relatively positive for the prosecution. We're going to have full analysis. Let's take a quick break. All of our players are with us right after this.


BLITZER: All right, let's get some analysis of what we just heard, wrapping up the week, the first week of this George Zimmerman second-degree murder trial.

Martin Savidge is joining us right now.

You've been covering it, Martin, from the beginning. Give me your quick assessment of what we heard. Was it good or bad for George Zimmerman, what we heard from Lindzee Folgate, the physician assistant?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, it was kind of mixed. Certainly the opinions that she was giving were that he suffered injury, but I think what the prosecution was getting at with her is that well, but wasn't really life-threatening injury. In other words, that's a claim he's made, self-defense, he thought he was actually going to die at the hands of Trayvon Martin that's why he had to shoot. And I'm not sure that for the defense, she really painted that picture of a man who was facing that.

That said, however, there's the other issue she brought up, the MMA. That he was apparently going to a gym where there was mixed martial arts. That played heavily in earlier testimony. This was already described by Sunny that, you know, the person who was said to be on top delivering the beating looked like they were using an MMA style. So a very crucial day. Key testimony without a doubt -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. What did you think, Mark?

Mark Nejame is joining us right now, criminal defense attorney, a legal analyst.

What did you think of this final day of the week's testimony?

MARK NEJAME, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think it was an exhausting day for everybody involved. I think there was a lot of testimony and people were swaying back and forth. They hear something good for the prosecution. They hear something good for the defense. I think overall, though, that it was a day that was really -- that really benefited the defense. Why? Because this is the prosecution's case. They're putting on their best case right now.

And the prosecution is presumed to be -- having better days. And when in fact the defense in any trial, can chip away at a defense -- at prosecution's case and show that there's really holes and weaknesses in it, that's not a good thing for the prosecution. This is their case and this is what they're using to convince the jury. That this is their opportunity.

BLITZER: That's a fair point. Diane Dimond is joining us as well, the legal analyst with the "Daily Beast."

What's your assessment, Diane?

DIANE DIMOND, SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT, NEWSWEEK/THE DAILY BEAST: I completely agree. I think that this is the part of the trial where the prosecution is supposed to shine and the defense is supposed to sort of hang their head and wait for their turn.

You know, I think this last witness was very important. She talked about the injuries to this man. The prosecution did get in that he -- they weren't life threatening, but let me ask you this, Wolf. How badly do you have to be hurt before you are allowed under law to start to defend yourself? You know -- no, he didn't have dizziness, he didn't lose consciousness, he didn't have blindness on one eye or a slurred speech, but he did have a -- what appeared to her to be a broken nose, to have an occiput damage which is to the back of your head, sciatica in his lower back.

He was obviously hurt in some way during this tussle, so again it all comes down to what those six jurors think. They're parents. The majority of them if not all of them. Two of them have guns in their own home. So it will come down to what did the jurors think was reasonable for him to do if he thought himself, if he thought he needed to have a self-defense.

BLITZER: Well, that's a good point, and Sunny Hostin, you've been watching it from the very beginning as well and I guess the question comes down to exactly what Diane just said. Were there other ways for him to protect himself from presumably getting beaten up by Trayvon Martin, short of taking out a gun and shooting and killing Trayvon Martin?

HOSTIN: Yes, absolutely, and I'd like to address that. I mean, if you're going to use deadly force, which is what he used because we know Trayvon Martin is dead, you, yourself, have to be in fear of great bodily harm or in imminent danger of death. And so that is why the prosecution is going into these injuries. I mean, are they life- threatening injuries? Of course not. He doesn't have a deviated septum. He has perhaps a broken nose that he didn't get treated. He didn't go to see an ENT and he's got two one-inch lacerations on his head and a couple of bumps.

He said immediately afterward, you know, he felt a little dizzy, didn't feel -- actually I'm sorry, the next day he didn't feel dizzy, he didn't nauseous. He didn't feel like someone who almost died. And that's really what you need. And so I think that while today was probably the best day for the defense, because I think that John Good was certainly a consistent witness, this week was not a great week for the defense and the ultimate issue here is, was he justified in using deadly force? And I don't know that any witness that has testified has given him that.

BLITZER: The pictures, though, Sunny, are pretty dramatic. You see all that blood, you see the bruises. You see -- I guess a picture sometimes speaks a thousand words, right?

HOSTIN: You know, I guess because I was a prosecutor and I've seen a lot of dead bodies and I've seen a lot of really significant injuries, they don't look that significant to me. Ultimately, of course, it's up to the jury to determine what is significant. What means that he was, you know, in grave -- in danger of grave bodily harm or imminent danger of death.

I just don't think those injuries get him there and that's what the prosecution is trying to hone in on.

BLITZER: Mark, because that frontal picture, when we see all the blood on his face and it looks like his nose is broken, to six members of the jury, all women, that could look pretty serious.

NEJAME: It can and remember the Florida law. The jury instruction that's going to be told to those jurors is, did he have a reasonable belief that he was facing death or bodily harm, serious bodily injury, and -- so that's a subjective determination. It's not an objective one. So what happened the day after considering a medical examination, although important, is not the critical consideration.

The critical consideration is when in fact he maintains that he was being beaten up, did he feel -- did he fear for his life and did he feel like he could sustain serious bodily injury, and I think that's what the state is going to have a challenging time overcoming.

BLITZER: Week one is now over. We're going to continue our analysis, continue our reporting on this and all the day's other news. We'll take a quick break. Much more right here on THE SITUATION ROOM after this.


BLITZER: Week one is now over in the George Zimmerman second- degree murder trial. Diane Dimond is still with us from "The Daily Beast."

Diane, listen to this testimony earlier in the day. I want to assess what we hear.


O'MARA: The voice screaming for help, however many times that you've heard it, it was just one person's voice?

JOHN GOOD, NEIGHBOR: When I heard it outside?

O'MARA: Yes.

GOOD: I believe it was just one person's voice, yes.

O'MARA: And you now believe that that was George Zimmerman's voice, correct?

GOOD: I never said that.

O'MARA: Do you believe --

GOOD: I said it could have been his but I was not 100 percent sure.

O'MARA: I'm not asking for 100 percent certainty. I'm asking use your commonsense and to tell us if you think that that was George Zimmerman's voice screaming for help, the person on the bottom?

GOOD: That's just my opinion.

O'MARA: OK. Nothing further, your honor.


BLITZER: John Good, a neighbor who says he's -- he believes he saw George Zimmerman on the bottom of that fight. Trayvon Martin on the top. Potentially very significant testimony, Diane.

DIMOND: I think probably the most significant from the defense's point of view to date. John Good was such a good witness in my estimation because he wasn't for either side. He made some points for Trayvon Martin's side. He made some points for the defense side and he was very matter of fact about it. He wasn't emotional and he's kind of really the closest thing we have, Wolf, to an eyewitness to the events.

Now he didn't -- he said he didn't see the head being struck upon the sidewalk, but we have proof that something happened because we have those photographs. So what he has to say, Trayvon Martin on the top, the lighter skinned person on the bottom, pinned down, is really significant.

BLITZER: All right. Stand by, Diane. We're going to continue our special coverage.

Happening now, new witness accounts of the night Trayvon Martin was shot dead. Did they help George Zimmerman make the case that he acted in self-defense? Also, I'll talk live this hour to the Texas state senator who's become a hero for liberals after she filibustered for abortion rights and fought personal attacks by the Governor Rick Perry.