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George Zimmerman Trial
Aired July 1, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK EIGLARSH, GUEST HOST (voice-over): Tonight, an explosive day in court. Will Zimmerman`s own words come back to haunt him? The jury hears what he told police right after he shot and killed Trayvon Martin.
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, MURDER DEFENDANT: He puts his hand on my nose and my mouth and he says, "You`re going to die tonight."
EIGLARSH: Does it line up?
And he`s back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don`t take my words out of context. Don`t take my words out of context. I didn`t say -- I didn`t say "all"!
EIGLARSH: Zimmerman`s outspoken friend and supporter faces the behavior bureau again.
It`s time for DR. DREW ON CALL.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
EIGLARSH: Good evening, everyone.
I`m Mark Eiglarsh sitting in for dear friend, Dr. Drew. Thank you so much for letting me keep the chair warm tonight.
I am joined by shocker. She is a shocker, Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Thank you, Mark. You look good in the big box.
EIGLARSH: Why, thank you, young lady.
Huge day in the Zimmerman trial, don`t you agree, Samantha? We`re going to cover it all tonight.
I mean, you`ve got prosecution witnesses seemingly helping the defense. You`ve got Zimmerman in his own words, but not having to take the witness stand.
We`re going to jump right in to it with our stellar all-star panel tonight. We have got the opinionated and lovely, Lauren Lake, attorney and judge of paternity court airing this fall; Crystal Wright from conservativeblackchick.com; Michael Skolnik, editor in chief of GlobalGrind.com, he`s also on the board of the Trayvon Martin Foundation; and also Ms. Ali, who`s a social commentator and author of -- get this title -- "How Not to Eat Pork or Life Without the Pig".
Lauren, I`m going to start with you. Lauren, huge day today in the trial, right? I mean, you`ve got prosecution witnesses seemingly helping the defense. Tell me if I`m thinking this through correctly.
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: No, there`s no doubt that the defense definitely scored some points on cross-examination, as they have been doing. But, Mark, what I think was most compelling about today is that it was finally about George Zimmerman, and his actions, because he`s the person on trial.
And, you know, Trayvon`s parents have said from the beginning, they just want their day in court for their son, and I think today, we finally get to talk about what he did or did not do on that day, hear in his own words what he may have done or not, and whether you believe him or not and hear his own inconsistencies and the way his own story maybe changed a bit and we`ve judged every witness for every way they tell the story and now we see our own defendant has some interesting nuances in the way he tells it.
EIGLARSH: Lauren -- well, let me just ask Michael. Lauren just said that the family just wants to have this aired out in trial. We keep hearing that. But don`t they really want a guilty verdict? Isn`t what they really want?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
MICHAEL SKOLNIK, GLOBALGRIND.COM: I think the family wanted equal justice for their child and have a gentleman like George Zimmerman go to a trial in front the jury of his peers. What happens after that is in the hands of the jury.
I think what happened today in court was an interesting day. I think it was a seesaw battle back and forth. I think that`s what`s interesting about the testimony from detective Serino is there is that 80 seconds of what did George Zimmerman do in those 80 seconds when he walked back towards his car. Did he go towards Trayvon or did he keep walking towards his car like he talked about? If he went towards Trayvon, like detective Serino, did Trayvon have the right to defend himself against George?
EIGLARSH: Crystal, you know, Michael just said seesaw back and forth. Seesaw back and forth usually creates reasonable doubt.
CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVEBLACKCHICK.COM: There was no seesaw -- there was absolutely no seesaw in court today. You had compelling testimony from both police investigators, both detectives, Doris Singleton and Chris Serino, who said that all throughout, Zimmerman was consistent. George Zimmerman was consistent in his testimony, straight forward and believable.
And Chris Serino under cross-examination said that he didn`t use aggressive tactics, and there was three different interviews, because he found George Zimmerman to be telling, you know, a straight forward account of his story.
And as for Lauren`s comments, I mean, Lauren, I don`t know where you`ve been. This has been about George Zimmerman from day one. George Zimmerman is guilty, that`s what it`s been about.
LAKE: No, it has not been. You were just disappointed --
EIGLARSH: Hold on.
WRIGHT: Excuse me, Lauren, I did not interrupt you.
EIGLARSH: Guys. Stop! Stop! Stop.
I know people in the control room, I will cut your mics.
Now, I`m going to give Lauren a chance to respond and then we`re going to Ms. Ali.
WRIGHT: Why are you giving Lauren a chance to respond when she interrupted me?
LAKE: Actually --
EIGLARSH: I thought you were done, Crystal.
LAUREN: So much drama! Have you not had dinner yet?
EIGLARSH: Guys, guys.
LAUREN: This isn`t about you.
WRIGHT: It`s about you, apparently.
EIGLARSH: No, no, no.
LAUREN: I`m not sure --
EIGLARSH: Ladies, time-out.
LAUREN: I`m not sure what your personal beef is with me but I don`t know --
EIGLARSH: Somebody cut her mic. Ms. Ali. No, no, hold on, Lauren. We`re going to go to Ms. Ali now.
SHAHRAZAD ALI, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: One sure thing, I`m glad it`s not about me, because usually I get charged with that like that.
But listen, we have seen these kind of cases. You know, back in the day in the `20s, `30s, and `40s, there were over 2,000 black people lynched during that time, and most of them had a trial. They would go to court, you know, and you had the grand dragon for the judge like we got in this case. Because he has already decided that they can`t use racial profiling as one of the issues, when that`s really what this entire case is about. He racially profiled him.
Had Zimmerman run up on a white guy walking down there, he`d say, hey, good evening, how you doing, can I help you with anything?
He would have been very nice to him. You know, but because he was a black man, he had this unnatural fear that most people in this country have of black men, and he would overreact, to the point where he killed him.
But we always have a judge and a jury and a trial.
And the other thing is that the judge gives out so many convoluted instructions, a litany of things that has to be reached before you can prove somebody guilty. By the time you listen to the judge, you think the only person guilty is yourself.
EIGLARSH: So, Ms. Ali, you have no doubt -- hold on, Michael, I`m going to go to you and I`m going to Lauren -- Ms. Ali, you have no doubt that this was about the color of his skin, even though the FBI found that he was a hero wannabe, but not necessarily a racist.
ALI: Well, the FBI doesn`t have that kind of credibility in the black community for us to decide that they got the final judgment and that they can make the calls that`s accurate. This is what this was about. And it`s unfortunate.
And then you`ve got the Klan on the jury, two of their husbands and id anybody thinks they haven`t advised them, they`re out of their mind.
EIGLARSH: All right. Let me go back to Lauren and Michael. Lauren and Michael and then Crystal. Go, Lauren. Make a number, Crystal, you`re coming up soon.
LAKE: My point is this. I`m not sure where all the Crystal`s animosity is coming from, but the court of law that I`m watching is a court of law where it ebbs and flows, as we talked about. I have said -- the defense has scored some points today on cross-examination.
But the totality of this evidence, at the end of this day, you cannot deny that a young unarmed boy with skittles and an iced tea is dead, and it`s not necessarily because he was the aggressor in this argument. It could have been that he was defending himself.
And so, instead of questioning the court of law that I`m watching, I`m saying watch the total body of evidence unfold before we just are so quick to say oh, we believe Zimmerman, oh, we believe Trayvon.
EIGLARSH: All right.
LAKE: At the end of the day, let`s hear all of the evidence. That`s the court I`m watching.
EIGLARSH: Let me go to Michael. Michael, didn`t the defense score some points today? Or at least --
SKOLNIK: I think Mark O`Mara is an outstanding attorney. He did a good job today in cross examination.
EIGLARSH: I agree.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, she is.
SKOLNIK: But let us not forget -- let us not forget fantastic. Detective Serino wanted to charge George Zimmerman with second degree murder and then change it to manslaughter. So, even though you think that detective Serino may have believed George Zimmerman, he still wanted to charge him with a crime for killing Trayvon Martin.
EIGLARSH: All right, Crystal, I`ll give you ten seconds to finish up.
WRIGHT: He`s charged right now, but both detectives said they didn`t feel George Zimmerman exhibited any bad will or intent toward Trayvon because he was black. That`s a fact.
EIGLARSH: All right. We`re going to carry this one over.
ALI: That`s what all white people say.
EIGLARSH: Ms. Ali, hold on. I`m going to get you first word when we come back.
SKOLNIK: I didn`t say that, Ms. Ali.
EIGLARSH: We`re going to dig deeper into this. Hold on, everybody.
Get ready for some fireworks after the next block because we are going to bring back George Zimmerman`s outspoken friend and supporter. He`s going to be facing the behavior bureau, and that`s right after this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You were just going to the store.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And driving out and you happened to see this kid and you want to check out with him, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, well, actually, you did the right thing, you called the police.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At some point, I said that we weren`t able to identify the victim. And he said, "He`s dead?" And I said, I thought you knew that. I thought you knew he was dead. And he kind of slung his head and just shook it.
He said, "Because in Catholic religion, it`s always wrong to kill somebody. I said if what you`re telling me how it happened is true, then I don`t think that`s what God meant. He didn`t mean that you couldn`t save your own life."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
EIGLARSH: I`m Mark Eiglarsh, back with my co-host, Olympic swimmer Samantha Schacher, back in college. Yes, I went there.
SCHACHER: Oh, my goodness, Mark. I wasn`t an Olympian, by any means.
EIGLARSH: Close enough. College scholarship.
That was a series of clips from just one of the investigators who questioned George Zimmerman right after the killing. This was a very compelling witness. And I promised I`d go to Ms. Ali when we came back from break.
Was she helpful to the defense?
ALI: Well, what I was saying before the break was that this case is about race. If this was two white guys, it wouldn`t get this much play. And certainly if it was two black, it wouldn`t get any play at all, because black people killing each other everywhere and it`s not on here, in a trial.
This is about race. And this is not just about Trayvon Martin.
Let me just say this -- every time we in the black community find out that somebody has killed one of us from another community, we experience a pain. We experience the same helplessness that we have felt for 400 years in this country. No sanctuary, no help, nobody to protect us but God.
As far as that woman talking about that God gives you permission to kill in self-defense, most people that`s doing that think they not thinking about no God. People think they got to deal with God after they die, and they willing to take that delayed judgment.
But right now in life, people killing all the time. This is about race.
EIGLARSH: So, Michael --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mark --
EIGLARSH: Wait, wait, here`s my question to Michael. Apparently it`s about race if you believe Ms. Ali. But nevertheless, apparently Zimmerman stopped other people, not necessarily of color. Do you think that this is about race?
SKOLNIK: I think that certainly George profiled Trayvon because of the color of his skin. But I want to focus on today if I can, Mark, for a moment. This is important -- George Zimmerman tells the cops he didn`t know he was dead. If you shoot a man, you don`t know you shot the man, you pull your trigger, even this man try to kill you, why do you put your gun back in your holster? Why don`t you have the gun pointed at his body on the ground until the police show up.
EIGLARSH: Because he looked dead. Hold on, Michael, hold on. That point was clarified. Let me just take the defense for just one second on this.
SKOLNIK: Go ahead.
EIGLARSH: He put it back because he obviously was no longer a threat to him. That didn`t resonate with you? You thought it was a lie --
SKOLNIK: No, you never put your gun away until you have backup. Never.
SKOLNIK: He`s a wannabe cop. He`s in criminology school.
EIGLARSH: All right. Let me go to Crystal and then Lauren.
Go, Crystal, let`s keep our answer brief so everybody can get around the horn. Go, Crystal.
WRIGHT: I don`t know what there`s left to say except that what was troubling to me was that when George did the ride along, when he did the ride along, he seemed overeager to tell his story and get out of the vehicle and reenact. I found that very troubling and disturbing frankly.
However, in his interview, I think with Doris, the detective named -- I`m forgetting her last name right now.
WRIGHT: He told her, she asked him, she said, if Trayvon wasn`t black, would you be having the same reaction? And George Zimmerman said, yes, because let`s remember, guys, the neighborhood had a ton of break-ins, which is why George Zimmerman started the neighborhood watch.
SKOLNIK: Yes, but, George and Frank say they`re always black.
WRIGHT: I know Michael wants a certain outcome. Everybody`s going --
SKOLINIK: No, George and Frank say it the whole time, they`re black kids.
WRIGHT: If this was a black on black crime, none of you would be sitting here.
SKOLNIK: Yes, George would be arrested that night. George would be arrested that night.
EIGLARSH: We`re not going to talk over each other.
All right, hold on, Crystal. I promised Lauren.
Go ahead. Jump in, Lauren.
LAKE: Mark, what I want to say is as he gave that confession, as he talked about this, it bothered me, the lack of remorse that I saw. He told it like he was talking about a movie or a story. That part bothered me. And also with the officer, it bugged me that -- it`s like is something going to happen to me? Is God going to punish me?
Aren`t you worried about this child? Have you found his family? Where did he come from?
I`m really concerned about this young boy. I want to see remorse from him, and I`m talking about not just as a citizen. Not just as a prosecutor. But as a defense attorney, that would bug me.
EIGLARSH: Stop, stop, stop. Let me ask my lovely co-host. You know, the argument was he just went into like panic mode. He was kind of lack of effect. That`s what O`Mara was trying to raise.
Did you find troubling what Lauren just articulated?
SCHACHER: Everything that Lauren just stated, she literally took the words right out of my mouth.
However, I do want to say listen, detective Singleton was a huge blow to the state today. Detective Singleton, whether you want to believe George Zimmerman`s testimony or not, but she stated today on stand that she believed that George Zimmerman was not demonstrating any ill will or any anger towards Trayvon Martin. I think that may resonate with the jury.
EIGLARSH: No question.
Michael, what about that? I mean, when do you ever have police officers support the defendant as much as you did in this case? I`ve never had it in over 100 jury trials. This is unusual. You`ve got to admit, Michael.
SKOLNIK: I mean, you also have to admit that this police department, the case was taken away from them because they`re inadequate. The state came in to take over this case and the police chief was let go by the mayor of the city.
This police department doesn`t have an A-plus rating. So, I think, you know, as you`ll see this unfold, you`ll see two new investigators come in and take over this case and charge George Zimmerman with second-degree murder.
EIGLARSH: All right. Hold on, panel, I just want to take another look at a clip from evidence that was shown in court today. Take a look.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
INVESTIGATOR: Do you think he was scared? Do you think they were trying to hurt him? I mean, even in the tape you say, you think he`s running. First of all, he could see you`re following him. And then, instead of having a conversation with him, you put up your window?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
EIGLARSH: Crystal, based on what you`ve seen and heard so far, second-degree murder? Really?
WRIGHT: Look, you have a young black man who`s dead. That`s true. He can`t -- he`s not here to defend himself and tell his side of the story.
And yes, I think that it warrants the charge that has been laid on George Zimmerman and that`s why we`re having a trial and that`s why we`re having facts come out.
What is really troubling is that we`re still every night on this program and others, it`s all about race. And like I said before, we know - - I don`t agree with this lynching analogy that was made earlier, because blacks are not being lynched anymore.
ALI: Well, of course you don`t --
WRIGHT: Excuse me. Why do you say that? Because I`m in a black box?
No, blacks are killing and being killed at a higher rate by each other than any other race in the country.
ALI: Well --
EIGLARSH: Hold on one second. Crystal finish up and let Ali jump.
WRIGHT: OK, more blacks --
ALI: I really wish I could see you all.
WRIGHT: More blacks have been killed by guns since 1979 than all the blacks that were lynched from the time past the civil war through the civil rights era. Period, fact.
EIGLARSH: All right. Ms. Ali, go. Hold on, Michael. You`re after Ms. Ali.
ALI: One of the things that we as black people do is that we go into a self-hypnosis because of the low self-esteem we have as a result.
WRIGHT: I don`t have a low self-esteem.
EIGLARSH: Let her finish, Crystal.
ALI: By doing that, we think that it will make white people love us and that we will be accepted by them.
WRIGHT: Yes, right.
ALI: And they don`t have to worry about black people. But what I was going to say --
WRIGHT: I wasn`t born white and I don`t have trouble having white people accept me.
ALI: I think we should also be concerned about the eyewitness reports because most studies have shown that eyewitnesses even 10 feet away, or 50 feet away, they make a lot of mistakes.
So, all of that testimony has to really be examined, did they really see or hear what they say they saw?
EIGLARSH: Ms. Ali, and the question to all my panel, is if this is about race, and if this is either a not guilty verdict, which is one of the options, or a lesser included offense, what can we expect the public reaction to be? And I`m concerned about what we saw after Rodney King.
Lauren, what is your response? Go, Lauren.
SKOLNIK: No, no, no.
EIGLARSH: It shouldn`t be, I know.
LAKE: Mark, we have been on televisions from the beginning on this trial, media coverage, everything. We are presenting our stories, our feelings, our opinions, and we`re hoping that we`re encouraging the community.
If you have a feeling about it, talk about it. Don`t resort to violence. We can always discuss. We can disagree, but we don`t have to attack and be violent.
I have high expectations for my community. Would I be a liar if I said yes, I`m kind of nervous? And I hope a few bad apples don`t spoil it for everyone who is taking this case for heart and really understand --
EIGLARSH: So do I. So do I, Lauren.
LAKE: -- we`re getting an opportunity to look at our justice system play out. No violence, nothing.
EIGLARSH: Ms. Ali, I`ll give you ten seconds. Do you have any concerns? Ten seconds.
ALI: Well, I have a concern. Everybody knows that we have a three- point program under these kind of situations. First we complain, then we march, and then we do something else. We throw a tantrum. Y`all call it a riot.
But this is a very serious case. But it don`t have to be serious we already know the verdict is going to be not guilty.
EIGLARSH: All right. We`re going to come back. We`ve got a lot more to talk about.
If you recall last night, things got very heated when George Zimmerman`s outspoken friend Frank came in and appeared on our show. He`s back.
And tonight, find out why the behavior bureau, someone from that bureau, says that she owes him an apology.
And later, will Zimmerman take the stand? That`s the big question. My legal dream team -- yes, it is a dream team -- is here with the answer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRANK TAAFFE, ZIMMERMAN FRIEND AND SUPPORTER: Lo and behold, he sees him in my house on private property.
EIGLARSH: What are we saying about young males? What are saying -- Frank, what are were saying -- are you lumping them all together?
TAAFFE: You know what, Mark? It had a tendency to be all black males that were committing these burglaries.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you see a black male in your neighborhood, are you saying that that black male is going to break into your house?
TAAFFE: I`m not lumping all black males together.
JENNY HUTT, RADIO HOST: First of all, this is outrageous, OK? Let me start with that.
TAAFFE: I didn`t say all. Don`t take my words out of context. I didn`t say -- I didn`t say "all"!
(END VDIEO CLIP)
EIGLARSH: It`s time for the behavior bureau. I`m back with my lovely co-host Samantha Schacher. Also joining me, Lauren Lake, Wendy Walsh, psychologist and author of "The 30-Day Love Detox", HLN contributor and psycho therapist Tiffany Davis Henry, and criminal investigator Danine Manette, author of "Ultimate Betrayal." She joins us by phone.
But also back with us tonight is the very controversial Frank Taffey, who is George Zimmerman`s outspoken friend and supporter. And the man at the center of a heated discussion on Friday`s show. I mean, my Twitter, my folks were lighting up saying, don`t have that guy on. OK? Now, a lot of people were.
Now, Frank`s comments during the debate about young black males became way too much to watch. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: I have two sons. My sons have straight A`s. For you to make a statement like that, just because of what`s going on in your particular neighborhood or what you see.
Where is this guy`s white hood and burning cross? That`s what I want to know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, that`s bad. Whoa!
MANETTE: This really goes to the crux of the problem. I`m sorry, but that`s what I`m hearing from you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
EIGLARSH: Now, Danine, it`s my understanding that you wanted to address your comments.
MANETTE (via telephone): I do, and I`m sorry that I can`t be there, we`re having a mass transit strike up here. We can`t get around.
MANETTE: This is the part that really upsets me. I really got angry, and I took it to a level that I shouldn`t have taken it to, and it`s absolutely unacceptable, and I really went over the top. I should have never made those comments.
And I went home, I thought about it. No, I don`t have a publicist or I didn`t get in trouble or anything like that. I`m just an ordinary person who works every day and recognizes when I`m wrong. And I should not have made those comments about the white hood. It was over the top and I apologize to everyone that I offended with those comments.
But, you know --
EIGLARSH: Danine, we thank you for your thoughts. I wanted to get Frank`s reaction.
TAAFFE: First, I accept your apology, thank you. And I think the operative word for this panel is decaf. Let`s lay off the Red Bull. And let`s try to put this all in context and deal with this as calmly as possible and look at the facts and evidence that have been presented to the jury, OK?
We can use conjecture. Ms. Ali, I like what you have to say because Trayvon was a black man. He wasn`t a young child, as originally portrayed in the media when this first happened. Thank you very much for that, because you see it for what it`s worth. I want to address Michael`s comment --
WENDY WALSH, PYSCHOLOGIST: I believe he was 17, wasn`t he?
PINSKY: Hold on one second. Go ahead, you wanted to address Michael`s comments. Then I have a follow-up question. Go ahead.
TAAFFE: Yes. He had mentioned something about Serino. Serino is the gateway to George`s acquittal, because in his testimony today, and I`m just quoting his testimony, so try not to refute me here, Michael.
He stated that they tried to crack George. And at one point, he told George that the entire incident was being recorded, and George`s statement to the police under oath was, "Thank God, this will exonerate me. Or this will show that I`m not guilty."
TAAFFE: His statements have been consistent since his original statement he made to the police the night of the shooting. And so forth in the additional four statements.
EIGLARSH: Well, some would argue they were consistent. And others, I don`t know maybe you Wendy found inconsistencies. Do you think it`s going to play a role here?
WALSH: Well, I think proving that George Zimmerman believed he was not guilty is different from the eye of the law putting a lens on this and making a determination of guilt or not. And I do want to go back to what you said about Trayvon Martin being a man. He was 17 years old. In the eyes of the law, you`re not an adult in our culture until you`re 18. He was 17 years old.
TAAFEE: Well, he could serve in the armed forces at 17. So, what are you trying to tell me?
WALSH: What I`m trying to say is this, that his emotional level of functioning is not --
TAAFEE: How do you know that?
WALSH: -- as highly developed as somebody who`s 25.
TAAFEE: How do you know that? How do you know that?
WALSH: I have a Ph.D. in clinical psychology.
TAAFEE: Did you interview him.
WALSH: I have a Ph.D. in clinical psychology.
TAAFEE: Was he one of your patients?
WALSH: A 17-year-old does not have the same kind of intellectual or emotional process --
MARK EIGLARSH, HOST: Hold on. One at a time.
TAAFEE: Was he your patient?
EIGLARSH: All right. Lauren has a question for you. Go, Lauren.
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: Did you go to me, Mark. Oh, Frank, I wanted to ask you. I was really concerned about the video reenactment that I saw. As George kind of spelled out the event, what I felt in the last segment and I said this is that there was a lack of remorse. There was just this lack of emotional feeling to know that I just killed a person that wasn`t the person I thought they were.
Meaning, I thought I was going after a burglar, a robber, a thief. But in essence, this was an innocent young man. I did not get the traces of remorse. And I want to know, since you know him, how do you explain that?
EIGLARSH: Good question.
TAAFEE: Well, sadly -- it`s good question, but sadly, he wasn`t nominated for an Oscar or an Emmy. And I don`t know what you wanted to draw from that. If he was supposed to be balling his eyes out or just capitulate to the fact --
LAKE: Just some emotion. Just some emotion.
TAAFEE: What did you want to see?
LAKE: That if you took a life -- I wanted to see a person who had taken someone else`s life.
TAAFEE: Well, he didn`t win the Oscar. He didn`t win the Oscar.
LAKE: I`m sorry.
LAKE: It`s not about Oscar. Frank, let me just say this -- Frank, let me just say this about you because I haven`t attacked you or anything, but I`m having trouble. It seems like as the interviews go on, you`re becoming more and more aloof, condescending, and you`re almost coming on here like this is a joke. This young man is dead. His parents are sitting
TAAFEE: This is not a joke. A man is on trial for his life.
LAKE: I think your attitude sometimes --
LAKE: I think your attitude sometimes is really disappointing.
EIGLARSH: One at a time.
TAAFEE: Well, OK, a man is on trial for his life.
LAKE: And a young boy is dead.
EIGLARSH: Hold on. I want to bring Tiffanie in. Guys, I want to bring tiffany in. Tiffanie, go ahead.
TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, PH.D., HLN CONTRIBUTOR: You know, I hear what everyone is saying and I think that one of the things that was pointed out today was that Mr. Zimmerman, as he was testifying, had somewhat of a flat affect. And what that means for a lot of people that don`t know, it means that you tend to appear emotionless.
For anyone that`s experienced any type of trauma, and I understand that shooting someone is traumatic to the person that has been shot --
TAAFEE: Or being beat up.
HENRY: -- as well as the person who did the shooting, it is very traumatic, and sometimes, you don`t have that range of emotion that you would typically have. And so, I do --
EIGLARSH: Tiffanie, one --
EIGLARSH: We`re going to continue that into the next block. I also want to ask Frank candidly, why he keeps putting himself out there. What is he about?
HENRY: That`s a great question.
EIGLARSH: And, and, hold on one second, and I`m going to ask him --
TAAFEE: I`ll tell you why.
TAAFEE: Want to know now?
EIGLARSH: Frank, hold on. No, it`s a tease, Frank. No, it`s a tease, Frank.
EIGLARSH: I also want to know candidly, doesn`t George have any other friends? But hold on. OK? We`re going to discuss all that and more. Also, who was the aggressor? Was it George Zimmerman? Was it Trayvon Martin? The behavior bureau also tackles that issue when we come back.
And later, I found something very significant in George Zimmerman`s written statement, something that I know that the prosecutors absolutely love. And that`s right after this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s been a few times where I`ve seen a suspicious person in the neighborhood.
TAAFEE: I think he had a call of duty for the neighborhood. And I think he was not going to let another burglary go down on his watch.
He had a concealed weapons permit. It was self-defense. Self- defense.
I wonder who had the injuries. He became the aggressor, the thug that he was. He went MMA style on top of George. And he started pounding George`s head.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: It seemed like he continued to pursue him. That`s how he got himself into trouble.
TAAFEE: How do we know that? How do you know that?
PINSKY: Well, we don`t, for sure. And that`s something --
TAAFEE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The question is, could Zimmerman have done something else other than shoot Trayvon who was unarmed even if Trayvon was on top of him?
EIGLARSH: I promise to the viewers, let me just say this, I promise, we`re going to address that issue.
EIGLARSH: And as promise, we are addressing that issue right now. It`s a huge issue in this case. I`m back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher, the behavior bureau, the controversial, outspoken Frank Taaffe, apparently, George Zimmerman`s only friend. And both --
TAAFEE: No. He has many friends. He`s got plenty of friends.
EIGLARSH: Well, let`s start with that then. Where are his other friends? I mean no disrespect at all, but apparently, you`re the only one talking. Where is other friends?
TAAFEE: You know what, Mark, that`s a great question. He`s got plenty of friends. You know what? I stood up for this guy from day one because he, in my heart, was being maliciously prosecuted by the mainstream media and also by the state of Florida. This is a clear case of self- defense. This man was on neighborhood watch.
EIGLARSH: Frank, Frank, where are his other friends? Where are they?
TAAFEE: What do you want, their e-mail address? You want their phone numbers? What do you want? They`re out there.
EIGLARSH: No, I`d like them on the show. I`d like to hear what they have to say.
TAAFEE: Sure, you would.
TAAFEE: You and the other hundred media outlets. But you know what, here`s the deal, OK? You want to address friendship? This man went into his community, and he dedicated and devoted himself for the safety and protection of everybody in that community and he didn`t get paid for it. And look what he`s gotten now. OK?
EIGLARSH: Let`s talk about that.
TAAFEE: He`s got a second-degree murder charge.
EIGLARSH: I want to start with Tiffanie on that, OK? There are many people who say that Zimmerman loses any protection under self-defense because he followed Trayvon. Now, the law in Florida where I practice says that you don`t lose it because you follow someone, you lose it because you become the aggressor.
EIGLARSH: Does following someone, in your opinion, mean that they become the aggressor, Tiffanie?
HENRY: Well, you know, we take my opinion with a grain of salt. I`m a sex therapist, OK? I don`t have legal training.
EIGLARSH: But you can be on the jury. You`re a woman. You qualify to be on the jury.
HENRY: Exactly. Exactly. However, I feel that there were a lot of different things that Zimmerman could have done in this case to -- and maybe even Trayvon. I think, there were a lot of things that everyone could have done differently so that we didn`t end up here. I think that Zimmerman --
HENRY: I feel like he could have not followed him. I feel like he could have identified himself as neighborhood watch and say, hey, are you lost? Can I help you? I feel like he could have let the police do their job. So, were there different things that could have been done, yes, absolutely.
EIGLARSH: She makes a good point. What about that? Why not say, look, I`m from the neighborhood watch. He admitted he didn`t say that. Why not that, Frank?
TAAFEE: He didn`t have time.
HENRY: What about saying hello?
TAAFEE: He didn`t have time. He said that Trayvon said, "do you have a problem," he says, "no." You got one now. You tell me in that conversation he`s got time to say it. And let me ask this to our in-house therapist. If something is perceived as a threat, I want you to just chew on this for a while.
If something is perceived as a threat, i.e., as Trayvon to Rachel was talking about George, he said, you know, this guy`s a threat. So, if it`s a threat, do you move towards the threat or you move away from the threat? Do you go to it or you move away?
HENRY: I think it depends on how you were raised.
EIGLARSH: Hold on, hold on. Hold on.
EIGLARSH: Stop, stop, stop. Wendy, and then, I`m going to Samantha. Go.
WALSH: OK. There`s been plenty of research on what happens when the fight or flight mechanism takes over, when all our fear censors are stimulated.
TAAFEE: So, you said Trayvon fought him.
WALSH: It`s often biological. But I do believe that no matter what, you can`t argue with the fact that Zimmerman was feeling a great deal of fear. And in that fear -- now also, there are some other things going on in his life. Remember, we had his brother explaining to us how the father had recently been hospitalized and had a heart attack.
So, on a deep psychological level, his secure attachment figures might be going away. He was feeling a little, you know, a little rattled inside. So no matter what, whether he moved closer or moved further away, he was definitely feeling fear.
TAAFEE: No. I`m talking about Trayvon.
EIGLARSH: Hold on, everyone. I promised Samantha. Go.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Frank, can you argue with the fact that at the end of the day, that as a neighborhood watchman, you are the ears and eyes of the neighborhood. And you`re supposed to report any suspicious person to the police. You`re not supposed to act out as the police, right?
EIGLARSH: Ten seconds, Frank. Last word. Go.
TAAFEE: George was acting as the eyes and the ears. The dispatcher told him let us know if he does anything else. And George followed up on that. Finito.
EIGLARSH: All right. Frank, thank you very much for joining us.
TAAFEE: You`re welcome, Mark. Thank you.
EIGLARSH: It`s nice to at least hear his views.
Next, we have an attorney for the Martin family who`s going to join me and I`m going to ask her what the family thought about today`s extraordinary court happenings.
And also, later, something very telling caught my eye in Zimmerman`s written statement. I`m going to explain right after this.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up at the top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," our bold question is all about George Zimmerman. He was telling his story in court today. Does Zimmerman`s story make sense?
RYAN SMITH, HLN ANCHOR: And it`s tough, he`s got a lot of different issues. A couple of different statements. We`ll talk about that. Our in- studio jury will vote by the end of the night and render a verdict. They`ve even got their theories on his story.
POLITAN: We`ll take them back to our recreated shooting scene, top of the hour, "HLN After Dark."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They said, "are you following him?" And I said, "yes, because he was in the area." They said, "We don`t need you to do that. I said, "OK."
He was here and he punched me in the face.
I ended up on my back. And he was on top of me mounted and he kept punching me.
He hit my head against the concrete several times, yelled out for help and tried to smother my mouth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who yelled for help?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
EIGLARSH: Welcome back to DR. DREW ON CALL. I`m Mark Eiglarsh sitting in for my good friend, Dr. Drew tonight. My co-host, Samantha Schacher. And folks, I`ve been waiting all night for this. This panel is extraordinary. I just want to look at them. You`ve got Attorney Loni Coombs, author of "You`re Perfect & Other Lies Parents Tell."
We`ve got former prosecutor, Marcia Clark, and author of "Killer Ambition." We`ve got also author and talk show host, Brian Copeland, and Martin family attorney, Jasmine Rand.
Now, George Zimmerman spoke today, but he didn`t have to be subject to cross-examination. We heard his own words through tapes and his reenactment. All those were displayed in court today. But his stories, some would say, were pretty consistent, others say not. Marcia Clark, O.J. prosecutor, what was the prosecution trying to accomplish by playing these tapes in their case?
MARCIA CLARK, FORMER PROSECUTOR: They`re trying to show the inconsistencies, Mark. And I think they actually did a good job of it. And to the extent that his statements are inconsistent, to show where they`re inconsistent, and they did a good job. Showing he was inconsistent about claiming the bushes were there and he could have jumped out of them.
That`s a big glaring one, because this is a neighborhood he lives in. Really, he`d been pulling out the fact that he claimed not to know the name of the street in the neighborhood that only has three streets, that kind of thing, shows consciousness of guilt.
EIGLARSH: I don`t know. But Loni, even their own police officer, the lead investigator said both of them, Strickland and Serino, both said, well, there were some minor inconsistencies, but things that you would expect from someone`s been through that kind of trauma, and you know, it can`t be perfect, right, Loni?
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Absolutely. This is a huge gift for the defense. I mean, yes, you could pick apart the little inconsistencies here and there. However, the defense can say, look, you have the two people who were there in the room with him and asking him the questions, and they both said we thought he was straight forward.
We don`t think he was hiding anything. He didn`t show like he had any animosity or ill will towards this person. He seemed to be consistent on the big things. What better recommendation can you get except from the two lead investigators on the case.
EIGLARSH: Brian, who do you think this would help today?
BRIAN COPELAND, TALK RADIO HOST, AUTHOR: Oh, I think that the prosecution was definitely helped today, because there are already inconsistencies in terms of what Zimmerman said in his statements. And the biggest thing, the most glaring thing here is, if you take Zimmerman at his word, why didn`t he identify himself as a member of the neighborhood watch?
EIGLARSH: OK. Here`s what we`re going to do. We`re going to carry this over. I`m going to ask Jasmine for her reaction. What the family thought about the testimony?
Also, I`d like to know from her, will Trayvon Martin`s father testify in this case and say it was his son yelling for help? That`s after this.
EIGLARSH: I`m Mark Eiglarsh sitting in for my buddy, Dr. Drew. And my co-host is the lovely and talented animal lover, Samantha Schacher.
SCHACHER: Thank you.
EIGLARSH: I`m going out to Jasmine Rand, the family attorney. And I want to know, are we going to hear from Trayvon`s father to say that it was actually Trayvon yelling for help on the 911 call?
JASMINE RAND, ATTORNEY FOR MARTIN FAMILY: I don`t know exactly who the prosecution is going to call and when, but I can tell you that if Tracy Martin is called to the stand, that he will verify that was his son screaming for help.
EIGLARSH: OK. Does the family still expect Zimmerman to take the stand, with all the testimony that came out today?
RAND: I think Zimmerman needs to take the stand if he`s going to explain this tangled web of lies that he`s told. But I do not know whether or not George Zimmerman will take the stand. They do expect the killer of their son to explain why he did it.
EIGLARSH: Marcia Clark, does he need to take the stand? I`ll tell you this, as a trial lawyer, I`d keep him about a mile away from that stand. Not because I don`t want to hear from him, but because you are just putting your client out there to be eaten up. What do you think, Marcia?
CLARK: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely, Mark. Yes. I mean, look, if they put him on, he becomes the witness of the case. Nobody more important. And he`s got all these statements. And you may disagree, Loni may disagree about the import of the inconsistencies. I think they`re rather big. I don`t think they`re small. I don`t think they`re minimal. Every witness, Mark, tells a story a different way, as you know, we all know.
We see this. Witnesses can be inconsistent in their details. In fact, it makes them more credible. But in the details that he is inconsistent with, he`s inconsistent with his own injuries. He talks about being repeatedly pounded into the pavement. That`s not what that head looks like, that kind of thing.
So, there are number of really, to me, glaring ways. And I thought this was a turning point. But, they don`t need to put him on the stand, and I absolutely don`t think they will.
COPELAND: There`s no way that he goes on the stand. There`s no way that they put him on the stand. He`ll be torn to shreds in cross- examination. And just in the -- I saw the last two segments with his friend, Frank, and I just want to say that I`m taking up a collection to get him some help for the crack he apparently smokes before he comes on your broadcast.
EIGLARSH: I don`t know how much money you`re going to raise. I don`t know.
EIGLARSH: Loni, last word on this. Won`t the jurors want to see him and won`t they hold that against them even though the judge tells them not to?
COOMBS: Well, they`re not supposed to, obviously. But I don`t see how he can do anything to help himself. He already gave four statements over a period of time. Every time came in willingly, openly, told the police everything they asked him. I don`t think that he can do any better on the stand, and he can definitely hurt himself.
And they also got his demeanor. He`s fairly meek through it all. He`s not defensive, but he`s also not aggressive. So, I think he did a good job in the interviews. I think he sticks with those.
EIGLARSH: Thank you to my stellar panel. Listen, I noticed something very telling in Zimmerman`s written statement and I`m going to show you what I`m talking about when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I tried to slide out from under the suspect. The suspect covered my mouth and nose and stopped my breathing. And this point, I felt the suspect reach for my now exposed firearm.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
EIGLARSH: It`s time for the "Last Call." Samantha, did you just hear that? That was significant. In George Zimmerman`s written statement, he uses the word suspect. Prosecutors want to paint him as a wannabe cop. Wannabe cops use term like "suspect," right?
SCHACHER: Yes. And to further your point, Mark, Detective Singleton, in her testimony, right there on the stand, she stated that she did not advise George Zimmerman to use such language as describing Trayvon Martin as suspect.
EIGLARSH: Do you think the jury picked up on that, first of all?
SCHACHER: I picked up on it, so I would believe that they picked up on it as well.
EIGLARSH: And how significant is that going to be in terms of the prosecution trying to prove that he was a wannabe cop, that he was overly aggressive and he was the one who followed Trayvon?
SCHACHER: Well, I think it does prove that he has the mentality of a wannabe cop and that he did see Trayvon Martin as a suspect.
EIGLARSH: Samantha, thank you so much. I will see you tomorrow night. And I want to thank all of you for watching. And most importantly, thank you to Dr. Drew. This is such a privilege for me to be here. I love assisting you, and I`ll see you all next time tomorrow. "HLN After Dark" starts right now.