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Zimmerman`s Injuries in Question

Aired July 2, 2013 - 20:00   ET



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He made reference to, These (EXPLETIVE DELETED) punks, correct?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said you`re going to die tonight, (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was your voice?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are the injuries to the back of the defendant`s head consistent with having been repeatedly slammed into a concrete surface?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. They`re not life-threatening. They`re insignificant, insignificant injuries.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was going to kill me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have a problem, mother (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Trayvon Martin replied?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was terrified.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They always get away.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that something that you would use in reference to somebody that you`re going to invite over for dinner?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, sir, I would not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) punks, something that you would refer to, something good about people when you reference them?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, sir, it`s not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ill will, hatred and spite against somebody else, sir?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He started to try to suffocate me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was not incapacitated in any way -- very alert.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had a stunned look on his face, wide-eyed, a little bit detached.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You were asked specifically about exaggeration. Do you feel he had exaggerated the manner in which he was hit?



NANCY GRACE, HOST: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

We are live tonight, Sanford, Florida. A 17-year-old heads home to his father`s condo, gunned down by the captain of neighborhood watch. Tonight, all eyes on that Sanford courtroom.

Bombshell tonight. The state strikes back. Torpedo to the defense, Zimmerman exaggerating his wounds. As a matter of fact, there was, according to doctors, only one scrape to the back of his head.

And in the last hours, it`s revealed on the witness stand Zimmerman claims the high school junior, Trayvon Martin, came at him head-on from 15 feet away. No mention whatsoever of an ambush from behind bushes. What happened to the bushes, Zimmerman?

Not only that, Zimmerman tells the story that Trayvon Martin actually grabs his .9-millimeter Keltec and the struggle over the gun then ensued. In statements, Zimmerman claims Trayvon had his hands totally covering Zimmerman`s mouth and nose. But if that`s true, then how could Zimmerman be the one screaming on that 911 call? This is all a far cry from the story Zimmerman tells police.

We are live and taking your calls. Right now, into the courtroom. Zimmerman exaggerating his wounds?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You were asked something about exaggeration. Do you recall being asked about that?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And do you recall -- I think either you uttered it or Mr. O`Mara asked -- uttered it on behalf of the defendant -- exaggeration. Do you recall what that was about?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pertains to the defendant`s statements.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You felt he was exaggerating certain parts of it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Among other things.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you feel -- I can`t lead you.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So did you feel -- in terms of exaggeration, what did you mean when you said that he was exaggerating parts of his interview?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I felt, OK, based on...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. No, no. What I`m getting is inconsistent. I want to give you -- I don`t want to -- you were asked specifically about exaggeration. Did you feel he had exaggerated the manner in which he was hit?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir. Yes, sir.


GRACE: Out to you, Jean Casarez, HLN legal correspondent, standing by at the courthouse. Jean, that`s not the only evidence that came out today that Zimmerman exaggerated his wounds.

Now, when I look at the back of his head, I see blood. When I look at his nose, it looks broken to me. But we all know that around your head, your nose, your face, the back of your head, lots and lots of blood vessels that bleed, that bleed profusely.

So is it true -- according to what doctors have to say, is it true that evidence comes out on the stand in the last hours that Zimmerman exaggerated his wounds?

JEAN CASAREZ, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: It was the chief medical examiner of Duval County. She took the stand as the jury watched, Nancy. She had pictures of George Zimmerman, those injuries. She said they were inconsequential, they were insignificant, they were not life-threatening. And she also said that it`s consistent with his head hitting the cement once.

GRACE: Take a listen to what came from the witness stand.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) your photographs...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After reviewing all those items, in terms of severity, how would you classify the injuries to the defendant`s head?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were not life-threatening. They were very insignificant. They did not require any sutures to be applied to Mr. Zimmerman. So as I would refer to them, insignificant injuries. So we have one small injury right there and one injury right there, where the blood is streaming from. So these were the two lacerations.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are either of those lacerations life-threatening?



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because they were so minor that the individual who examined and treated Mr. Zimmerman told him that the sutures were not required. So she put a Band-Aid on each of them, and that was the extent of the treatment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Are there also...


GRACE: A Band-Aid? Frank Taaffe, all he needed was a Band-Aid? Did I just hear a medical doctor say that? Because last night, Taaffe, you told me he was going in and out and in and out of unconsciousness, he was seeing his life flash before him. You told me that. He needed a Band-Aid!


GRACE: I`m just going to open it up...

TAAFFE: Nancy...

GRACE: ... and I`m going to put it in (INAUDIBLE). I`m going to send it to you, Taaffe. A Band-Aid!

TAAFFE: OK. Hey, Nancy, a picture`s worth a thousand words.

GRACE: Hey, Taaffe.

TAAFFE: A picture`s word a thousand words. I got a thousand words. She wasn`t the attending physician. She merely was going on photos on a disk that was supplied to her by the state.

And you know, upon cross-examination of this witness, she bought into a lot of the defense`s strategy that they could have been injuries more than one. And Mr. O`Mara on cross asked her, Could it have been more than one? Could it have been four? She said it`s possible. So here`s your reasonable doubt...

GRACE: Possible. It`s possible. And you know what else is possible? It`s possible that little green men came down from Mars...

TAAFFE: And you know what else is possible?

GRACE: ... and then they did it. They shot Trayvon.

TAAFFE: You want to know what`s possible?

GRACE: But it`s not probable!

TAAFFE: Brain damage. OK, external...

GRACE: What?

TAAFFE: ... versus internal.

GRACE: Brain damage?

TAAFFE: You know, Nancy, we saw externally what happened to George that night. We don`t know what was going on on the inside of his brain.

GRACE: Are you telling me that Zimmerman had brain damage? Because that`s -- whoa, whoa! Control room...

TAAFFE: Nancy, how many...

GRACE: ... take me back in the courtroom.

TAAFFE: How many...


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re looking at the contusion here. And there are very, very fine punctate (ph) abrasions that you need to have a close- up photograph to really see them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And again, explain for the jury or define for the jury what`s a punctate abrasion.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Punctate means like a little speck, like a spot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Are any of the injuries depicted in state 75 life-threatening?


GRACE: A speck, Mr. Taaffe? A spot? A speck?

TAAFFE: Nancy, she was reviewing the pictures. If you listen to the attending physician...

GRACE: I don`t even need her...

TAAFFE: ... the next day, they did require...

GRACE: ... to review it because I can see it for myself.

TAAFFE: OK. Would you...


TAAFFE: Would you perform a physical from a picture or with the patient in front of you? Which one has more validity?

GRACE: Actually, both have validity.

TAAFFE: OK. Now, I`m sure the defense on their cross laid out a foundation for the fact that she did buy in that it could have been more than just one blow to the head. And then she thought that the entire scene took place on a flat surface, when actually, it was at an angle, which caused the rotation...

GRACE: Mr. Taaffe...

TAAFFE: ... of the head...

GRACE: Mr. Taaffe...

TAAFFE: Review it. Please review it.

GRACE: ... you are a fairly, fairly intelligent man, all right? So...

TAAFFE: Fairly.

GRACE: ... we are looking at -- show me those pictures again that were just shown in the courtroom. I don`t need a medical doctor -- no, the side of his head. That is after it has bled down. That. I`m looking at his head. She said that there are specks, specks of wounds! And you are telling me that his whole life flashed in front of him, and now you`re going a step beyond that...

TAAFFE: Nancy...

GRACE: ... and suggesting that he had a brain injury?

TAAFFE: Nancy -- OK...

GRACE: Trayvon Martin is dead!

TAAFFE: A fairly...

GRACE: He`s shot dead!

TAAFFE: A fairly sized intellect...

GRACE: And this guy needs a Band-Aid! I`m -- I`m sick!

TAAFFE: The back of the head is very vascular. That`s the word that you`re looking for. It`s very vascular. And the injuries sustained on the detective`s photo clearly shows that there was a lot of blood that night. You were looking at a photo after it was cleaned up. Go to the photo that was taken by...

GRACE: That`s not helping you, Taaffe. To say it`s extremely vascular is my whole point. From one abrasion...

GRACE: Nancy, there`s blood.

GRACE: ... he could get all that blood. You`re bass-ackwards, my man!

TAAFFE: OK, hey, why do football players wear helmets? They don`t go on the field...

GRACE: To protect their head from brain injuries.

TAAFFE: Thank you!

GRACE: Not from a Band-Aid.

TAAFFE: Concrete. Concrete. Boom-boom.

GRACE: Are you now telling me that -- you`re telling me that you believe Zimmerman had a brain injury? You don`t want to accept that all he needed was a Band-Aid and Trayvon Martin is dead?

TAAFFE: How many -- at what force does a head need to hit cement before it goes into an unconscious state?

GRACE: I feel sick.

TAAFFE: Or a mini-concussion. At what stage?

GRACE: Not only that...

TAAFFE: Have you done tests on that?

GRACE: And you know, not only that, that`s not the only way that Zimmerman got busted. He`s now telling his friends -- pull it up for me, please, control room -- that -- nothing about any bushes. Nothing about bushes. He`s telling his buddy...

TAAFFE: Nancy...

GRACE: ... Osterman...

TAAFFE: Semantics.

GRACE: ... that -- no, it`s...

TAAFFE: It`s all semantics.

GRACE: ... not semantics. He`s telling Osterman...

TAAFFE: There is a place...

GRACE: ... that Trayvon Martin came at him from 15 feet away.

TAAFFE: Nancy, there are bushes there. There are bushes there.

GRACE: That`s not jumping out of any bushes!

TAAFFE: OK, jumped -- he came towards -- those are the nuances that he changed. He came toward him from the bushes. He jumped up from the bushes. He ambushed him from the bushes. That was the direction in which Trayvon came. That is still consistent.

GRACE: You know what?

TAAFFE: He didn`t say he jumped off a roof. He came from the bushes!

GRACE: Let`s hear it from the horse`s mouth. Go in the courtroom, please.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... that he put his phone in his pocket to turn around to head back to the car when the guy is there, about 15 minutes -- I`m sorry, 15 feet away, walking toward him, right?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s describing this person as 15 feet away and walking towards him, correct?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct. He put his phone in his pocket after the dispatcher told him they didn`t need him to follow him. So he was going to walk back to his vehicle.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And then he said something happened at that point?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He told me that as he was walking back to his car down the dog path, that Trayvon had confronted him, had walked towards him and confronted him, and they had a verbal...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And what do you recall the defendant telling you that Trayvon Martin told him, and what did he say in response?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He cursed. I`m not going to curse here today. He said, Do you -- do you have a problem? And then he used a curse word.





UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that something that you would use in reference to somebody that you`re going to invite over for dinner? Would you call them, These (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, sir, I would not.

ZIMMERMAN: He`s running.

DISPATCHER: He`s running? Which way is he running?

ZIMMERMAN: Down towards the other entrance of the neighborhood.

DISPATCHER: Are you following him?


DISPATCHER: OK, we don`t need you to do that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) (EXPLETIVE DELETED) punks, something that you would refer to, something good about people when you would reference them?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, sir, it`s not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In your opinion, calling somebody, a reference to them as, pardon my language, (EXPLETIVE DELETED) punks?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That is ill will and spite.


GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. Explosive testimony in the courtroom today, all eyes on that Sanford, Florida, courthouse.

With me tonight, Daryl Parks, attorney for Trayvon Martin`s family. Also with me, Frank Taaffe, representing George Zimmerman. He`s a very good friend of George Zimmerman`s.

Now, all along, we have been hearing this story develop that Trayvon Martin, a high school junior, after he`s been, by Zimmerman`s own words, running -- he takes off running from Zimmerman -- Zimmerman now says that Trayvon came back on him and jumped out at him, ambushed him from behind bushes.

But I want you to hear what Zimmerman`s friend Osterman said in the last hours on the stand under oath. Roll it.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... that he put his phone in his pocket to turn around to head back to the car when the guy is there about 15 minutes -- I`m sorry, 15 feet away from walking towards him, right?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s describing this person as 15 feet away and walking towards him, correct?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct. He put his phone in his pocket after the dispatcher told him they didn`t need him to follow him. So he was going to walk back to his vehicle.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And then he said something happened at that point?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He told me that as he was walking back to his car down the dog path, that Trayvon had -- had confronted him, had walked towards him and confronted him, and they had a verbal...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And what do you recall the defendant telling you that Trayvon Martin told him, and what did he say in response?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He cursed. I`m not going to curse here today. He said, Do you -- do you have a problem? And then he used a curse word.


GRACE: OK, Mr. Taaffe, you`re saying it`s semantics. It`s all just parsing of words. But to me as a trained lawyer, as a prosecutor, there is a big difference in self-defense when you claim somebody ambushed you out from behind bushes and when you see them coming at 15 feet away. That is inconsistent. Those are two different stories. That is my concern.

TAAFFE: There`s no concern. His injuries are consistent with self- defense. I want to go back to one minor thing. You`ve got to realize, when Detective Serino wanted to charge George Zimmerman with manslaughter, that it was overturned by the state attorney, Norm Wolfinger. There was no probable cause at that level. And there was no...

GRACE: Mr. Taaffe, may I ask you a question?

TAAFFE: Go ahead. Sure.

GRACE: Does Officer Serino have a law degree?

TAAFFE: No, but he`s a...

GRACE: Has he ever presented cases...

TAAFFE: He`s a detective.

GRACE: ... to a grand jury?

TAAFFE: No. But I`m sure Norm Wolfinger did in his 27 years.

GRACE: I have all the respect for police officers. All. But I do not want a police officer telling me the law, just as I would not tell them how to go make a throwdown arrest, all right? So I appreciate what Serino had to say. But that is up to a grand jury and that is up to the district attorney`s office or the prosecutor.

TAAFFE: When did that grand jury convene? After that Angela Corey (ph) was assigned to it?

GRACE: Mr. Taaffe, there are -- you know, I advise you, sir, do not tangle with me on the law because there are many ways...

TAAFFE: I`m not tangling. But let`s...

GRACE: ... for the legal charge...

TAAFFE: Let`s get a timeline.

GRACE: ... to come down.

TAAFFE: Hey...

GRACE: A legal charge to come down...

TAAFFE: I can understand timelines.

GRACE: ... by a preliminary hearing...

TAAFFE: I`m fairly intelligent...

GRACE: ... a grand jury...

TAAFFE: ... enough to understand timelines.

GRACE: ... by an independent counsel.

TAAFFE: Angela Corey was special counsel, and it was only after that that this charging affidavit, which was bogus, and their own investigator went on the stand last April and was asked under direct questioning...

GRACE: Yes. Wrap it up. Wrap it up.

TAAFFE: ... from Mark O`Mara who was the aggressor, and he went, We don`t know. We don`t know. We don`t know. He said that.

GRACE: OK. Now, I understand how you don`t want to address my question to you...

TAAFFE: We don`t know.

GRACE: ... so I`m going to throw this to Mr. Parks.

TAAFFE: I just addressed it.

GRACE: Mr. Parks, I find it to be a huge difference in stories. And last night, I said I hadn`t heard the inconsistencies. Everybody`s screaming about Zimmerman is telling all these lies and inconsistencies. I didn`t hear it last night. I did not hear it in the courtroom yesterday.

I`m hearing it right now because there is a hell of a difference between saying, Trayvon Martin jumped out at me from behind bushes and ambushed me, and I saw him walking at me 15 feet away. Parks, weigh in.

DARYL PARKS, MARTIN FAMILY ATTORNEY: Yes. Without question, Nancy. I think that you have to remember what George Zimmerman should have done was tell Trayvon -- Trayvon didn`t know who he was. So he was asking him, you know, What`s going on? And so George Zimmerman...

TAAFFE: He never said, What`s going on!

PARKS: ... instead of saying who he was...


PARKS: But in an altercation...


PARKS: ... is he goes in his pocket...


PARKS: Hey, Taaffe...

TAAFFE: What`s going on? What`s going on?

PARKS: ... be respectful, buddy.

TAAFFE: Go ahead.

GRACE: OK. All right. You know what, gentlemen...


GRACE: Please take the faces down. I appreciate the argument and I appreciate the jokes. But this is not the appropriate time for any laughter or levity.

If what we are hearing today, Trayvon Martin, high school junior -- my son is going to be a high school junior in just a few years -- was gunned down, and Zimmerman`s big self-defense, all he needed was a Band-Aid? We`ll be right back. We`re going straight back in the courtroom.


GRACE: We are live and taking your calls. Mr. Parks, you were trying to make a point. Go ahead.

PARKS: I said without question, when George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin met at the T, George Zimmerman should have identified himself to Trayvon Martin. But on top of that, though, he attempted to go in his pocket, right? And Trayvon and him had the altercation.

GRACE: I don`t know why...


GRACE: ... 15 feet away, I don`t identify myself. I don`t know why he should identify himself.

PARKS: Well, I think George Zimmerman approaching him in the dark for the third time...


GRACE: ... I saw you the other night in CNN Center. You were about 30 feet away. You didn`t say a word.

PARKS: No, but you knew who I was.

GRACE: True. OK, I`m busted. I`m totally busted. I`m totally busted on that. But I still don`t see why you`re saying Zimmerman should announce who he was. I`ve got a lot bigger problems with his testimony without him, you know, sending a formal invitation announcing who he was. That`s the last of my concerns.

My concerns are that his story seems to be falling apart right now, Taaffe.

TAAFFE: No, I don`t think so. It`s staying together like Elmer`s Glue, man. And I`m telling you what, like airplane glue. There are certain little twists and turns, but the essence of his message, where he was attacked, OK, he stays with that.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These (EXPLETIVE DELETED) punks always get away. Pardon my language again. These (EXPLETIVE DELETED) punks, that he said that because he wanted to interact and meet and invite Trayvon Martin for dinner that night?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is why I just stopped to call, to call, and then he walked past me. And he had been looking at my car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So when Mr. O`Mara asked you about profiling, isn`t it accurate that he was profiling Trayvon Martin as a criminal, he assumed that he was a criminal that night?

ZIMMERMAN: You`ve got a problem now. And then he was here and he punched me in the face.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you agree that after somebody dies, they don`t get taller?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Excuse me? I`m sorry.


GRACE: Welcome back. We are live in Sanford and taking your calls. Today in the last hours, Zimmerman`s story veering off to different angles. Zimmerman contradicting his own story multiple times. Now we are hearing that Zimmerman, shortly after the incident, claims there was a struggle over his Kel-Tec 9-millimeter. To the courtroom.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said that Trayvon had reached down and grabbed for the gun. Whether it was on the leather holster or on the actual metal part itself. At the time, I didn`t see a difference. I just thought that the intent was clear. And that`s when he had to -- he freed one of his hands and went and got the gun. He either broke the -- he either broke contact or knocked somebody else`s hand away, or knocked Trayvon`s hand away from him reaching for the gun or grabbing the gun. And then he drew it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you recall if he even told you that Trayvon Martin had touched the gun or just said he was reaching for it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought he had said he had grabbed the gun. I`d only heard the story twice. And whether it was grabbed the gun, grabbed for the gun --


GRACE: OK. Out to you, Matt Zarrell, that is a departure from what Zimmerman had been telling police. Now he`s telling his friends that Trayvon Martin grabbed his Kel-Tec.

ZARRELL: Yes, Nancy, you`re right. Previously we know that Zimmerman had stated that Trayvon Martin had reached down in that area, but now we`re hearing a detail that Trayvon Martin actually got his hands on the gun. Now, one thing you should note, Nancy, is that testimony toward the end of the day was that Trayvon Martin`s prints were not, not found on the gun. Zimmerman`s prints also were not found on the gun.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Lauren Lake, defense attorney, judge on TV`s "Paternity Court." Also with me, Parag Shaw, defense attorney and author of "The Code." To you, Lauren Lake, weigh in.

LAKE: You know, I feel like today, Nancy, the prosecution finally got back in this thing. The testimony was compelling. The medical examiner saying that the injuries were insignificant. And I will say this. I will agree with Frank Taaffe on one point he has made, that a picture is worth a thousand words. And in this situation, a million. Two Band-Aids as compared to losing your life. It is -- you can`t even compare it.

And I think at the end of the day, that jury sitting there is going to say does this look like injuries that would in any way resonate with I am in fear and fighting for my life? It just doesn`t add up.

GRACE: Parag Shaw.

SHAW: I don`t even know why we`re listening to the medical examiner. She`s not even the medical examiner on the case. She`s basically a hired gun. And if we want to listen to her, she said it was consistent with hitting the concrete. The injuries are consistent with Zimmerman`s take. So I don`t even understand why she`s even there.

GRACE: That`s not what she said. Sir, that`s not what she said. She said that his injuries are not consistent with multiple blows, that they`re more consistent with one blow --


SHAW: No. She said it`s possible. She said it`s possible that it could have been multiple blows.

GRACE: As I was saying, on cross-exam --

SHAW: And the burden, reasonable doubt.

GRACE: -- she was asked is it possible there were more than one blows? She said, well, I guess it`s possible. But that`s not my diagnosis.

SHAW: See, you went beyond all doubt. It`s beyond a reasonable doubt. And there`s reasonable doubt being thrown around all over this courtroom.

LAKE: And two Band-Aids --


GRACE: What`s the reasonable doubt?

SHAW: The reasonable doubt is that what she said, if we want to take it at all, is that the injuries that he sustained could have come from multiple blows. That goes with the defense`s theory of the case. And she said it was possible.

LAKE: And even if there were -- but even if there were multiple blows, let`s give the defense that. At the end of the day, he walked away with two Band-Aids and no stitches. You can take that to the bank and cash it. That does not sound like fighting for your life style injuries.

GRACE: No, it doesn`t. I want to go back to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent joining me at the courthouse. Jean, what else was a major inconsistency that came out today?

CASAREZ: Can I say one thing first?

GRACE: Sure.

CASAREZ: Just based on the testimony, because I know the testimony. The physician`s assistant testified, and George also said in one of his statements that I should put stitches in these wounds, but I see they`re already healing together, so I won`t. That was the testimony. Another huge --

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait, wait, wait. Back it up. Tell me that again, Jean Casarez.

CASAREZ: The testimony we`ve heard in court is, "I should put stitches in these wounds, these lacerations on the back of your head, but because the wounds are already starting to go together" -- remember, he went the next day to her -- "she said I won`t." And so that`s why stitches were not put on George Zimmerman`s wounds.

GRACE: OK. Could I ask you, Jean, how that jibes with the testimony that just happened in the courtroom?

CASAREZ: Seemingly that stitches weren`t needed. Seemingly, that they were inconsequential. I`m just looking at the testimony. That`s all I`m doing. I`m not giving an analysis on it, because the converse is normally with those particular wounds, you would put stitches.

GRACE: Now, I`m trying to figure out what --

CASAREZ: Remember, he didn`t --

GRACE: -- you`re saying as compared --


CASAREZ: He didn`t go to the hospital that night.

GRACE: I know.

CASAREZ: He didn`t go to the hospital that night.


GRACE: -- he didn`t need to go. Is that right, Debra Roberts, anchor, Florida News Network? Did EMTs decide he should not go to the hospital? How did that happen?

ROBERTS: Because the wounds just didn`t necessitate him going to the hospital. Again, he only needed a couple of Band-Aids. And you can`t do anything for a broken nose, so therein lies the fact that he was able to just go to his physician`s assistant the next day.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said "you`re going to die tonight."

ZIMMERMAN: Just kept slamming and slamming me. I felt like my head was going to explode.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are any injuries in this photograph life- threatening?


ZIMMERMAN: I thought I was going to lose consciousness.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has no loss of consciousness whatsoever. You know, he didn`t have to go to the hospital.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just -- there`s gunshots.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It said that we weren`t able to identify the victim. And he said, he`s dead?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And how did he react?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Detached as in wide-eyed and very -- really not processing what was going on.


GRACE: Welcome back. We are live and taking your calls. Renee, New Jersey. Hi, Renee. What`s your question?

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Actually, I just want to point something out. On the re-enactment video, there`s no way that George Zimmerman can say he was ambushed. If you remember yesterday when you showed the re-enactment video, he said he saw Trayvon standing on a grassy patch in front of a home. And what alerted him was because he knew that the windows to the house and the door were open. If it was raining and there`s zero visibility or the visibility was hindered in any kind of way, how would he assume that? He didn`t live in that house. He saw him walking. He happened to see him at the grassy patch. So he was, you know, pretty much looking for trouble.

GRACE: OK. Out to you, Debra Roberts, Florida News Network. Respond.

ROBERTS: Well, you know, this has been his contention the whole time. And this is one of the inconsistencies that you`ve highlighted tonight, Nancy. First he says he`s ambushed. Then he can see Trayvon coming from 15 feet away. So this is something the jury`s going to have to decide because he is --

GRACE: Well, I`m still looking for the bushes, Debra. I wish you could see what I`m showing the viewers right now. I see a couple of I don`t know what those are. I see a couple of possibly dogwood trees.

ROBERTS: Well, Nancy, not only that. He also --

GRACE: With no leaves on them.

ROBERTS: He also said he couldn`t see an address. And yet when you see the re-enactment video that he did the next day with Sanford P.D., you can see a prominent address. So which is it, George? Could you not see an address?

GRACE: Debrah, hold that thought about the address. I want to come back to you. Justin in the control room, please show me that diagram you just put up. I want to see those green circles. There you go. Take a look at this. Hold it. Don`t take it down. There`s Trayvon Martin`s body, in the center. Those are trees. Trees, like young -- I don`t know. They look like dogwood trees.

Now, I want to go back to the re-enactment, Justin, that we were just showing. The re-enactment video. Where`s the bushes? OK? Because where he was showing where the struggle went down, there`s not a bush there. That`s a tiny, tiny detail that could blow up in this courtroom. Out to the lines. Theresa in Texas. Hi, Theresa. What`s your question?

CALLER: My question is I`m a registered nurse and have been since 1976, and I`m concerned because the blood flow from his head from the picture that was taken by the first person that was on the scene and later on, the blood flow was going to the front of his head. If his head was hit on pavement or concrete or the sidewalk, the blood flow would have gone to the back of the head, not toward the front. So would the nose bleed. The blood would go to the back of the head. And I also think that he acted out in anger because of the statement that he said, that he was tired of them getting away with it. And I`m not sure if it was explicit or punk or whatever. That doesn`t sound like a person that was calm to me.

GRACE: Back it up to that photo you were just showing, Justin, where you see what everyone`s referring to as the T. That`s simply -- keep going. That long -- right there. That`s the T that everybody -- stop right there if you can, if you can make that stop.

OK. Where are the bushes? I`m just not seeing them. I don`t see what Trayvon Martin, unless he could shrink down to about two feet tall and hide up on one of those patios, where is he supposed to be hiding? To Dr. Bill Manion. Based on what the medical examiner testified to today, how serious were George Zimmerman`s injuries? And it`s great to see you in person, Dr. Manion.

MANION: Thank you. Thank you. Well, it is true that these were just lacerations. One was two centimeters. The other was a half a centimeter. And there apparently was no internal bleeding. I have suffered a head injury --


GRACE: Doctor, for those of us that do not live in Canada or Great Britain or Europe, show me what you`re talking about with centimeters. Not everyone can convert as well as you do.

MANION: Well, 2.5 centimeters is an inch. So 2 centimeters would be like three quarters of an inch. And a quarter centimeter would be like -- or a half a centimeter would be like a quarter of an inch, three-eighths of an inch. So there are --

GRACE: So how big were these lacerations?

MANION: Three-quarters of an inch and a quarter inch.

GRACE: Three-quarters of an inch and a quarter inch.

MANION: And they require some amount of force. They require some force.

GRACE: Three-quarters of an inch, quarter of an inch.

MANION: That`s right.

GRACE: So how would you describe those? Would you describe those as needing a Band-Aid like the doctor did today?

MANION: Well, no. They have better techniques. They have like a skin glue that they can approximate the skin. One person said that they were already healing, so why disturb them with sutures? And sutures can be sources of infection. So you`ll cause more trouble. The scalp is very vascular. It will heal quickly.

GRACE: So (inaudible) already healing the next day, Dr. Manion, if they`re already healing the very next day, how serious could they have been?

MANION: Well, if anybody out there wants to bash their heads on the ground and on concrete and say that felt good, that two-centimeter laceration, I`d like to hear an expert say that. I think you`d be worried --

GRACE: My point, Dr. Manion, is obviously they`re not life- threatening. All right? They`re not life-threatening. That is the point.


GRACE: Straight out to Frank Taaffe and Daryl Parks. Let`s see the shot of Trayvon Martin, face down in the dirt with his hands beneath his body. OK. That is one of the shots, and his hands are actually underneath his stomach.

Out to you, Frank Taaffe. Didn`t Zimmerman say that he went out, got on top of the body, and that`s when he spread Trayvon Martin`s arms out, straight out?

TAAFFE: That is correct, that`s correct.

GRACE: And that`s what people saw him doing, that`s why he was on top, the one person that saw him on top with the red jacket. His arms are not spread out.

TAAFFE: That is consistent.

GRACE: But his arms aren`t spread out.

TAAFFE: In Trayvon`s final moments of life, he reeled his arms back in to the point of which where the shot was. Just like any human being when they`re in pain. The last moments we have is right here. His arms went back under his body like this.

GRACE: Wow. OK. What about that, Mr. Parks?

PARKS: Nancy, I have to tell you, one I think George Zimmerman said that testimony, but we know clearly that the arms were under the body. But (inaudible), I was sitting next to Tracy Martin in court today. And for him to hear that this guy shot his son, didn`t try to help him, tried to spread his arms out as if he was trying to inflict more pain on him, was very painful for his father.

GRACE: Everyone, we are taking your calls. Out to Liz. Hi, Liz. What`s your question?

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I just love your show. And my question is after George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin, I was just wondering, because I never heard anything about it, if there was any blood splatter on Zimmerman`s jacket or shirt?

GRACE: Not that I recall. Jean Casarez, what do you know about blood spatter, if any, on George Zimmerman`s jacket or shirt?

CASAREZ: I think there is one little bit of blood, yes, on George Zimmerman, from Trayvon Martin, yes. No blood on Trayvon Martin from George Zimmerman`s nose, however.

GRACE: Out to C.W. Jensen, retired police captain, joining me tonight out of Cave Creek, Arizona. What do you make of the testimony of law enforcement officers? Do you believe that they`re ultimately helping or hurting Zimmerman?

JENSEN: Well, I think they`re just saying what they`ve been told. I don`t know if it`s helping him. I certainly am confused again. There`s two parts of the story that I have problems with, and many of my fellow law enforcement officers have, is why Zimmerman is driving around by himself with a gun, you know, being the neighborhood watch.

We had neighborhood watches in Portland where I worked, and we had six or seven people from 40 to 70 years old walking around. So that`s the first part is why he was doing this.

The whole second part of this fight is disturbing to me. You know, why it escalated so much, and why he was taking so much responsibility for what`s going on in the neighborhood. So I don`t see Zimmerman being helped a whole lot by the testimony that I`ve heard so far.

GRACE: C.W., you`re a retired police captain. And I appreciate Serano, who`s a fantastic cop. But did you ever go at the district attorney regarding what legal charge they were going to bring?

JENSEN: Nancy, many times, and I`m sure you did this as a prosecutor, you triage these cases. So you will have the district attorney or the prosecuting attorney, you`ll have the forensic people, you`ll have the homicide detectives. And you all sit down and you will discuss what happened and what everyone kind of thinks happened.

Now, do I believe that George Zimmerman went out that night and wanted to kill someone? No.

GRACE: Right.

JENSEN: But do I believe that he put himself into a position where he had no other option in his mind -- and remember, he`s not a cop --

GRACE: Got it. Out to Greg Cason, psychologist. Greg, I`d like to hear your take on this.

CASON: Well, I think George Zimmerman unfortunately from a psychological point of view is coming across rather truthful. I think the way he sees the events is truthful in his mind. It`s just maybe not that`s going to be the way the jury sees these events and maybe not the rest of us see these events. Clearly he was out for trouble. He was carrying a gun. And he wanted to find trouble, and he found it.


GRACE: We remember American hero, Army Staff Sergeant Juan Rivadineira, 23, Davy, Florida. Army Commendation Medal, Army Achievement Medal, National Defense Service medal. Mother Yenni (ph). Widow Melissa. Son Juan Jr. Juan Rivadineira, American hero.

And now straight back to the Zimmerman-Trayvon Martin trial. Greg Cason, you were saying?

CASON: Well, I just think that Trayvon -- I think that George Zimmerman in his own mind thinks he was doing a good thing. And he thinks he was helping his neighborhood. But when you`re looking for trouble, you`re going to find it. There`s a thing in psychology calls confirmation bias, which basically means we find the evidence we`re looking for in whatever situation we`re in.

GRACE: Everyone, we will be back in the courtroom bright and early, 0900. We want justice, whatever that may be.

As we go to break tonight, a special happy birthday to Lucille Dent (ph), longtime member of her Methodist church. Happy birthday, Ms. Dent. Court is over, but Dr. Drew is up next. I will see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.