Return to Transcripts main page
Crime Lab Analyst Testifies; Morsy Adviser: Military Coup Under Way; Report: Morsy Told He's No Longer President
Aired July 3, 2013 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BERNIE DE LA BIONDA, PROSECUTOR: OK. If you could, move to that middle column that's entitled JR-20. I mean JR2 is the number I'm assuming that was designated by FDLE or by the submitting agency?
ANTHONY GORGONE, CRIME LAB ANALYST: Yes. That's the exhibit number, Exhibit JR-2. That was from Sanford Police Department.
RIONDA: OK. Under that column right there, you have it appears on each one of the -- on each column two numbers. Tell me the significance of that, if you could.
GORGONE: These numbers here, this -- if you read down, this is the DNA profile for George Zimmerman. These numbers represent different size fragments of DNA that are found at that location. So that's my result at that location.
These numbers are called aliels and what these aliels represent are a different size fragment based on how many repeat units they have on those highly repetitive segments of DNA. Each person, like I said, inherits half of their DNA from their mother and half of their DNA from their father.
That's why each of these 13 locations you see two numbers. One came from each parent. There are times where you inherit the same -- same size DNA at the one location, which is why there'll be two numbers that are the same.
RIONDA: OK. Now, move on to the last column. I believe that's Trayvon Martin's, ME-3 means from the medical examiner's office. Is that correct?
GORGONE: Normally when an exhibit comes from the medical examiner's office, it has an M.E. as the abbreviation, but it could be called anything. Really it's just a letter number designation that's unique to that sample in this case.
RIONDA: And in terms of you have the same on Mr. Martin in terms of you have two numbers, obviously one from his father, one from his mother. Is that correct?
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Let's open the microphones here. Let me introduce you to Tanya Smith, criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor, Mike Brooks worked in law enforcement for years and years, law enforcement analyst for HLN. Let's just break away.
Because for a minute, this is just getting a little wonky, if I may, looking at all the loci versus the locus versus the numbers versus the assignment from this guy's particular crime lab. Bottom line is for me, we're going through so carefully because DNA matters and it could prove key here, right?
TANYA MILLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That's absolutely right. You know, we live in the era of CSI. Jurors expect to hear from the state whether or not there's any DNA evidence, and if there isn't, why there isn't. In addition to that they also want to know what efforts were undertaken to get the DNA, if it was done appropriately and that there was no tampering done in the process.
BALDWIN: How thorough the investigation was.
MIKE BROOKS, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: One of the main things that he did, he examined the swabbings that were taken for any touch DNA on the gun of George Zimmerman. Was there any DNA there deposited by Trayvon Martin. He also examined the scrapings under the fingernail and the clothing that both men had on that evening. So we'll see what the results are to see if Trayvon Martin was a contributor to anything that maybe George Zimmerman had on and vice versa.
BALDWIN: Two great points. Things were watching for. Certainly the jurors are as well. Quick break. We'll take you back to the trial in just a second.
BALDWIN: All right, let's take you back to this trial here. It looks like these two lawyers are looking over some evidence here before the state presents this to this crime lab analyst who is still sitting here in the hot seat in this trial answering some questions about DNA and the science of all of this investigation. Let's go back.
Let me go to -- while they're sort of mulling over this and looking through some of the papers, Darren Kavinoky who is in Los Angeles, who is an attorney, you're watching all this with me here today. Are the jurors falling asleep? Are they taking notes? Are they fascinated or are they sitting on the edge of their seats with all this science do you think?
DARREN KAVINOKY, ATTORNEY: You know, I think it's like, this is terrible. Here's what's terrible about it. This may be important scientific material. Yes, we're in a CSI era where jurors expect to get some science. But we're reaching the climactic finish of this case.
We heard this morning that the prosecution is intending to rest soon. And why it is that they selected this time to bring in this boring stuff to lull these jurors to sleep when you want them at the edge of their seats. If this was a boxing match, I'd begin to suspect that somebody has taken a dive if I were a conspiracy theorist.
BALDWIN: I hear you and I know you're saying it's terrible. Tanya Miller, forgive me, you know, making a really valid point that they have to go through the science, as wonky and nuance as it may be and perhaps a little over the heads of some of the jurors.
It's important to establish. This is important. This guy knows his stuff because he may, as we're waiting to see, be able to come out and say yes or no, Trayvon Martin's, you know, DNA was found on the gun and that could be important.
MILLER: Absolutely. Look, I think anyone who has had significant experience trying these kinds of cases know that there are parts that are always boring. A trial is not some excitement filled event where they're on the edge of their seats at all times. This is important evidence. This jury is probably on the edge of their seat wanting to know what the scientific evidence says about this event.
BALDWIN: Let's watch.
RIONDA: About using obviously State's Exhibit 203, I want to talk about the four swabs that were taken from the defendant's gun. The first one I want to talk about is the swab taken from the pistol grip. If you could, using that part of State's Exhibit 203, tell us the significance of your findings there. And just describe each part that is shown up there. Hopefully the jurors can all see that. It's got an FDLE number, right, exhibit number? Then you've got a description of what it is, swab 21-A from pistol grip. Is that correct?
GORGONE: Yes. This is basically a summary of the testing I did, the results of that testing and the statistical analysis. Over here, this is the number that it got -- this exhibit got assigned when it came into the FDLE laboratory. I usually refer to them as the agency's -- the Sanford Police Department's number, which is over here, which would be -- it was DMS-21.
Since there were four swabs in the box they got labeled a, b, c, d. Swab "a" here was from the grip of the gun. And I did the chemical test for the possible presence of blood on the swab, which gave me a positive result. So that's this column here, whether or not I did that chemical test.
The next column is whether or not that sample gave me an indication of a mixture of multiple people or if it was a single source. So this one here, yes, meaning I got a mixture of DNA from the testing of that sample. I was able to resolve this mixture out. I was able to pick out or determine the major DNA profile in that mixture.
And that's right here for the major. I got a complete DNA profile which matched George Zimmerman. And then the statistic here would be the random match probability. The probability that you would pick a random person off the street and that they would also -- that they would match that major DNA profile.
So just to read that, the probability would be 1 in 11 quadrillion Caucasians, 1 in 1.5 quintillion African-Americans and 1 in 57 quadrillion South Eastern Hispanics.
So going back to the mixture, also for the minor, which would be the lesser contributor or contributors. I was not able -- not determined means I was not able to determine a profile for that minor or minor contributors.
And the comparison of my other standard, which would be from Trayvon Martin to that mixture, I determined that Trayvon Martin was excluded as being a possible contributor to that mixture.
RIONDA: So as to this part of the Exhibit 203, the swab or the DNA that you developed from the pistol grip of the defendant's gun, it was positive for blood, correct?
RIONDA: And then there was a mixture. The major was matched the defendant, George Zimmerman?
RIONDA: And you were able to exclude Trayvon Martin as having DNA on the pistol grip. Is that correct?
GORGONE: Yes. Trayvon Martin was excluded as being a possible contributor to this mixture on the grip.
RIONDA: I want to move next to the second part of the swab from the pistol trigger this time, on the previous exhibit that you examined, did you again perform or try to do the same testing, or tell us what that significance of that FDLE exhibit 3 was, sir?
GORGONE: The 21-b was a swab collected from the trigger of the pistol. I did not perform the chemical test for blood on that exhibit. The swab itself didn't give me an indication that blood might be present.
BALDWIN: OK. So this crime lab analyst is walking through these multiple swabs that he took on George Zimmerman's gun to see whose DNA was where. So far the headline that I'm hearing is the fact that it was George Zimmerman's DNA, specifically on the grip of the gun, but not that of Trayvon Martin. Quick break. We'll take you back to this after this break.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST, CNN'S "THE SITUATION ROOM": I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Want to update you on what's going on in Egypt right now. We're about to get a major statement from opposition leaders. Three opposition leaders have now been authorized to deliver a statement on Egyptian television. Mohammed El Baradei will be making a statement along with a leader of the Muslim University as well as a Christian leader.
The three of them authorized by the military to be outlining what is described as a road map, a road map in a post-Morsy era leading to new elections and a new regime, presumably in Egypt. We're standing by for that statement. We don't know the whereabouts of the Egyptian President Mohamed Morsy right now. Apparently he's holed up in some sort of building near one of the Egyptian palaces.
Clearly the Egyptian military is taking steps to move forward to deal with these two enormous demonstrations on the streets of Cairo right now, pro and anti-Morsy. This is a very, very intense moment in Egypt's history. We'll have extensive coverage of what's going on because the stakes clearly are enormous. Once again, the former head of the International Atomic Energy Agency Dr. Mohamed Al Baradei will be making a statement. We'll have coverage here on CNN. In the meantime, let's go back to Brooke. More coverage of the Zimmerman trial -- Brooke.
BALDWIN: Wolf Blitzer, thank you so much. We'll take you back to Egypt momentarily. But first this trial, the state again saying this morning it will rest. This is a huge afternoon for the prosecution. Once again quickly just bringing Mike Brooks in before we get back, this, again, is the crime lab analyst. He's just run through four different parts of the gun, George Zimmerman's gun which he swabbed. What was the conclusion?
BROOKS: Yes, they were swabbed by an examiner, sent to his lab, three for the gun, one on the pistol grip, one trigger, one slide and then the holster. The pistol grip there was just touch DNA, just from George Zimmerman, could not find anything from Trayvon Martin. The slide no DNA, they could not include or exclude, and the trigger really was kind of basically inconclusive. The holster negative for any kind of blood for either one of them, but we didn't hear what the exact DNA was. If I recall correctly there was no DNA from Trayvon Martin.
BALDWIN: Mike Brooks, thank you. Let's listen back in.
RIONDA: Even though you don't have a swab, how do you remove, if there is any DNA, from this? What do you do?
GORGONE: I take a swab and I swab the pointy end to try to obtain anything that is on that pointy end that came from under the finger fingernails.
RIONDA: And let's, if we could, talk about your findings as to that specific exhibit, sir. I gathered there's a right hand and a left hand. Is that correct?
GORGONE: Yes. There were two envelopes inside the main envelope. One contained the right hand, which I labeled "a." The left hand was labeled "b."
RIONDA: And if I could, I've put it up on the screen here. Tell us what your findings regarding your DNA analysis of the right hand fingernail scrapings of Mr. Martin?
GORGONE: The right hand, the stick from the right hand had some red brown staining on it. So I performed the chemical test for the possible presence of blood and it tested positive. The DNA profile I obtained was a single source profile. And it was -- it matched the DNA profile from Trayvon Martin.
In a sample like this, I call this an intimate sample. Because it's collected directly from an individual's body. When you collect a sample from an individual's body, their DNA profile is expected to be seen on that swab or on that sample.
So what I'm looking for on an intimate sample is anything foreign to that person. And in this case, because the DNA profile matched Trayvon Martin, that means there were no DNA foreign to him on that sample.
RIONDA: In other words, from the right fingernail scrapings of Trayvon Martin, you did not find any of George Zimmerman's DNA there. Is that correct?
GORGONE: No, there was nothing foreign to Trayvon Martin.
RIONDA: If we could move to the second part, which I believe would be the fingernail scrapings from the left hand. If you could, tell us your findings as to that, sir.
GORGONE: Yes. The left hand stick was not tested for the possible presence of blood. It did not have any staining on it whatsoever. I swabbed that, performed the testing, and I did not get any DNA results from that swab.
RIONDA: I believe you also examined some swabs, possible DNA swabs from a Skittles bag and also a flashlight. Is that correct?
RIONDA: May I approach the witness again, your honor?
JUDGE DEBRA NELSON: Yes, you may.
RIONDA: Sir, I'm showing you State's Exhibit 169. I ask you if you recognize State Exhibit 169, sir.
BALDWIN: All right, so quickly they were talking specifically about the scrapings that were found underneath Trayvon Martin's fingernails and the fact was no foreign DNA was found. Translation, no George Zimmerman DNA was found, which is not consistent with what George Zimmerman was saying earlier in the trial that we heard. Not in the trial. What we heard in the video where apparently he was saying Trayvon Martin's hands were covering his mouth and his nose. We'll look for the defense to counter that somehow. Quick break.
BLITZER: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. We're following the breaking news out of Egypt right now. Just within the past few moments, a very dramatic development. The state run newspaper, the major newspaper in Egypt, has reported that the Egyptian President Mohamed Morsy as of 7:00 p.m. local time is no longer the president of Egypt. This was told to Morsy by the Egyptian military. That he is no longer the president of Egypt. Mohamed Morsy a year ago was democratically elected. It was a close election, 52 percent for Morsy, 48 percent for the opposition. He was democratically elected, but there are enormous demonstrations, anti- Morsy demonstrations on the street of Egypt -- streets of Egypt right now, in Cairo, Alexandria and elsewhere. There are also pro-Morsy demonstrations unfolding as well although it appears the anti-Morsy demonstrations in Tahrir Square and elsewhere are much, much bigger.
But once again, the major newspaper of Egypt, which apparently is very much under the influence of the Egyptian military right now, saying that Morsy is no longer president. They've also announced, the Egyptian military, that very soon we will be getting a statement from opposition leaders including the former head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, a fierce opponent of Morsy. They'll be issuing what is being described as a roadmap in the post-Morsy era.
Let's bring in Ben Wedeman right now. He's covering this story. He knows Egypt very, very well. He's on the streets over there. He's over -- he's right near a pro-Morsy demonstration. Ben, if this report is accurate, that the Egyptian military says Morsy is no longer the president of Egypt, there will be fierce anger from those people right near you.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I'm afraid there will be, Wolf. I spoke with one senior member of the Muslim Brotherhood here. I asked him for his reaction to the news or to the -- at that point it was just the belief that Mohamed Morsy would be deposed. Of course, now he is and he pointed to the crowds behind me, and he said, they will die to stop what is happening.
And what we've heard people in the crowd chanting behind me is that it's either victory or martyrdom. The worry is that once this becomes officially announced, once this army statement is made, that people will start to leave this area and take out their anger. Where, how, we don't know. Now, we do know that in some of the roads leading to here, there are military vehicles. But obviously the reaction here will be very angry -- Wolf.
BLITZER: It will be angry, and we'll see what happens. We only can hope there won't be a lot of violence, although I suspect there probably will be. We'll see what the Egyptian military does at the same time. Ben, standby. We have other reporters watching what's going on. We're awaiting the statement of the opposition leader. We'll see if Morsy is allowed to say anything. What happens to him, much more coverage obviously of this historic development coming up. In the meantime, let's go back to Brooke -- Brooke.
BALDWIN: Wolf, thank you. As we await that statement there in Egypt, I want to take you back to this trial in which we're still hearing from this crime lab analyst specifically talking now about blood found on Trayvon Martin's sweatshirt, that hoodie. Let's go back.
RIONDA: Mr. Gorgone, let's talk about the findings regarding the hooded jacket recovered from -- or that Mr. Trayvon Martin was wearing. I'm showing you State's Exhibit 119. Does that -- can you show us where there's a stain there or appears to be a stain there? GORGONE: That would be stain "c" which was on the back of the sweatshirt.
RIONDA: Am I circling it right here?
RIONDA: OK. So in addition to actually making your cuttings, you're photographing what you do so that if you had to come and explain it to somebody or testify about it, you would be able to say this is exactly where I got this cutting and this is where I got this result?
GORGONE: Correct. This is a photograph of before I did any testing. Obviously there's no cutting taken there yet. But in my notes I describe chemical tests for blood, the result, cutting taken, cutting not taken, and so on.
RIONDA: State's exhibit -- I'm going back to 203, I believe it is. I want to ask you about the results. Let's talk about stain "a" that we've shown the jury already. Tell us what your findings were regarding that, sir.
GORGONE: Stain "a" gave me a positive result for blood, for the possible presence of blood. I obtained a single source profile so no mixture. It was a partial DNA profile at less than the 13 locations that I test. And it matched the DNA profile from Trayvon Martin.
RIONDA: And I believe you stated state's exhibit -- I'm sorry. Stain "a" from the hooded jacket from Trayvon Martin was in the front. Is that correct?
GORGONE: It was in the front lower part of the jacket.
RIONDA: OK. Let's talk about the stain "b" which I believe you stated was one of the sleeves, is that correct?
GORGONE: Yes. Stain "b" was on the sleeve, the left sleeve.
RIONDA: And if you could tell us what your findings were regarding that, sir.
GORGONE: Stain "b" tested negative for the possible presence of blood and I performed no further testing on that stain.
RIONDA: And the stain "c" which I believe was in the back of that hooded jacket, what were you findings regarding that, sir?
GORGONE: Stain "c" gave me a positive result for the possible presence of blood. However, I was not able to obtain any DNA results from my testing.
RIONDA: I believe we have one more. Tell us if you can what your findings were regarding that specific exhibit.
GORGONE: In addition to the three stains that I tested, I was also asked to swab to see if there was any foreign DNA on the cuffs or the lower part of the sleeves of the sweatshirt. So I collected -- well, first I did the test for blood on a rubbing from the entire cuff and lower part of the sleeve. I considered the lower sleeve from about the elbow down to the cuff.
So I tested that whole area for the possible presence of blood, which tested negative for the right cuff and sleeve. I swabbed that area to see if there was any DNA foreign to Trayvon Martin since it was his sweatshirt. So I can expect to potentially see his DNA profile there. And it was not -- there was no DNA foreign to Trayvon Martin on that right sleeve.
RIONDA: Did you also do that to the left cuff or lower sleeve?
GORGONE: Correct. There was about the same results. It was negative for the possible presence of blood and I was not able to obtain any DNA foreign to Trayvon Martin from the left sleeve cuff swab that I collected.
RIONDA: I want to make sure the jury understand that. Are you saying that as to the hooded jacket from Mr. Martin, the right cuff and left cuff -- let me just -- Mr. Gorgone, I want to make sure we're talking the same thing. Make sure the jury understands. May I approach the witness, your honor?
JUDGE NELSON: Yes, you may.
RIONDA: For the record, I'm showing you State's Exhibit 155. Mr. Gorgone, when you're talking about the sleeve, how much of the sleeve are you rubbing?