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NANCY GRACE

Forensics Day in Zimmerman Trial

Aired July 3, 2013 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAPT. ALEXIS CARTER, ZIMMERMAN CRIMINAL LAW PROFESSOR: Yes, I taught a course, criminal litigation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember the defendant, George Zimmerman, being a student in that course?

CARTER: I do, one of the better students in the class. The "stand your ground" law...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cover that specifically?

CARTER: Yes.

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS: Prior to this night, this incident, had you even heard of "stand your ground"?

GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, CHARGED WITH MURDER: No, sir.

HANNITY: You never heard about it before?

ZIMMERMAN: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you discuss specifically self-defense and "stand your ground" laws in connection the of violent crimes such as murder?

CARTER: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember what kind of grade you gave him?

CARTER: I gave him an A.

HANNITY: Prior to this night, this incident, had you even heard of "stand your ground"?

ZIMMERMAN: No, sir.

CARTER: It was something that I constantly iterated. Students were very much engaged in class discussion regarding the issue. I remember, you know, talking about it, you know, quite a few times, not just on one particular occasion. He was probably one of the better students in the class. I gave him an A.

HANNITY: You never heard about it before?

ZIMMERMAN: No.

-- grabbed me by the head and tried to slam my head down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From the right (ph) fingernail scrapings of Trayvon Martin, you did not find any of George Zimmerman`s DNA (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, there was nothing foreign to Trayvon Martin.

ZIMMERMAN: The jacket moved up, and he saw it -- I feel like he saw it. He looked at it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trayvon Martin did touch the gun, or you said he was reaching for it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought he had said he had grabbed the gun.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you were able to exclude Trayvon Martin as having DNA on the pistol grip, is that correct?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. And you can see that things can change in a matter of moments.

HANNITY: Prior to this night, this incident, had you even heard of stand "your ground"?

ZIMMERMAN: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t have to wait until you`re almost dead before you can defend yourself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I would advise you probably not do that, no.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JEAN CASAREZ, GUEST HOST: Good evening. I`m Jean Casarez, in for Nancy Grace. We are live right here in Sanford, Florida, at the Justice Center. This is the second degree murder trial of George Zimmerman. Thank you so much for joining us.

The jury takes an up-close look at the hoodie that Trayvon Martin was wearing the night he was gunned down. It was stunning testimony from a DNA expert, the expert confirming that Trayvon Martin`s DNA was not on the grip of George Zimmerman`s gun, and none of Zimmerman`s DNA was found under the fingernails of the high school junior. So does this forensic evidence poke holes in George Zimmerman`s story, or does it actually help him?

The morning started off with the defense fighting tooth and nail to get the school records of George Zimmerman not before the jury. But the judge -- she wouldn`t even listen to the argument, when she said, It`s all coming in. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARTER: Yes, I taught a course. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where`d you teach that course?

CARTER: Seminole State College.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what was the name of that course?

CARTER: Criminal litigation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember the defendant, George Zimmerman, being a student in that course?

CARTER: I do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And actually, do you remember what kind of grade you gave him?

CARTER: I gave him an A. It was mostly, like, a crim law, crim procedure course. We talked about the law, elements of the law. We talked about criminal procedure, the constitutional rights, 4th and 5th Amendment, things of that nature.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Talk to me a little bit, Professor, about what kind of student you remember the defendant to be.

CARTER: You know, you always kind of remember your smartest student, or the one that stood out the most, the one that probably wasn`t the best student. And he was probably one of the better students in the class.

Florida and other states, they have what`s called the "stand your ground" law, which evolved from the "castle doctrine," through case law.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did you cover that specifically?

CARTER: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you discuss specifically self-defense and "stand your ground" laws in the connection of violent crimes such as murder?

CARTER: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What can you tell us about how long you spent as part of that course covering ideas like self-defense and "stand your ground"?

CARTER: Right. You know, self-defense is affirmative defense. It`s a big self-defense. It`s not one of those things that you`re just going to whisk through in a day, or after you teach it, you`re going to neglect from bringing it back into the classroom. So it was something that I constantly iterated.

I was the type of professor that before I gave any test, I gave a review for the test. And it was something that I think the students really wanted to know about. It was so practical that it was -- there was -- they were very much engaged in class discussion regarding the issue. So I remember, you know, talking about it, you know, quite a few times, not just on one particular occasion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: All right, I want to go out to Frank Taaffe, who is good friend and neighbor of George Zimmerman. Frank, it was a big day today because the defense didn`t want this to come in. This was Professor Carter. He was a good witness, Frank Taaffe. And he said that in his criminal litigation course -- and George got an A in that course -- that he went over and over and over "stand your ground" and self-defense.

But George Zimmerman said in the interview with Sean Hannity he didn`t even know about it. Explain it, Frank Taaffe.

FRANK TAAFFE, FRIEND OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: Well, hi, Jean. Good to see you tonight. I think upon cross-examination, he stated that he covered more about self-defense than he did the "stand your ground"...

CASAREZ: But we`re not talking about...

TAAFFE: ... which, by the way, is real loose.

CASAREZ: ... cross-examination. Frank, we`ll get to cross- examination. I want to talk about -- we`re in the state`s case...

TAAFFE: OK.

CASAREZ: ... and the state made a point.

TAAFFE: Yes.

CASAREZ: It hurts George Zimmerman.

TAAFFE: Right, but you know what? Jean, I`ve taken courses before in college, and it doesn`t mean I could know detail amount to any specifics if I`m in a traumatic situation. I`m not going to remember A, B, C and D if I`m under trauma. So big deal. He took a self-defense -- I mean, it was all about -- he took a course about self-defense or "stand your ground." It doesn`t mean that he...

CASAREZ: You know...

TAAFFE: ... detailed out his story to match what he took in the course.

CASAREZ: I want to go to Lauren Lake...

TAAFFE: I don`t know about you, but I can`t remember everything.

CASAREZ: Lauren Lake, defense lawyer -- this is the prosecution`s case. They`re trying to make a point with this. Frank Taaffe says it doesn`t amount to anything. Yes or no?

LAUREN LAKE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, of course, it does amount to something. At the end of the day, this is not just the first inconsistency with George Zimmerman`s statements. This is just another one on the pile of previous inconsistencies, and that`s what`s going to resonate with the jury.

If you are an A student, surely you paid attention in class. And if you paid attention in class, a law such as "stand your ground" should stand out in your mind.

CASAREZ: And the prosecution...

TAAFFE: Wow, that`s strange (ph).

CASAREZ: ... went on with their testimony -- Frank, I want you to listen to this. Let`s go to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What you just explained is how you would explain this self-defense concept works in Florida.

CARTER: Right. And it`s -- it`s fluid, you know. The law, as it applies, isn`t static, like I said. Any change in a certain fact can weigh differently in terms of whether someone acted reasonable.

And you know, to illustrate that, I would put up examples on the projector. I would have YouTube videos and pause it frame by frame -- OK, what`s happening now? You know, what is this person justified in doing? What are they not justified in doing? And so you can see that, you know, things -- things can change in a matter of moments.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An encounter that doesn`t appear to be deadly can turn deadly pretty quickly, in your mind?

CARTER: Oh, yes. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the issue of injuries, though, when you talked about that with the class, and your understanding of the law, is that the focus is what`s going on in the person`s mind, not whether they have actually been injured. It`s the fear of the injury, is it not?

CARTER: It`s imminent injury so -- or excuse me, imminent fear. So the fact alone that there isn`t an injury doesn`t necessarily mean that the person did not have a reasonable apprehension of fear. The fact that there were injuries have a tendency to show or support that that person had a reasonable apprehension of fear, but the fact that there wasn`t an injury at all doesn`t necessarily mean there wasn`t reasonable apprehension of fear, you know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t have to wait until you`re almost dead before you can defend yourself.

CARTER: No. I would advise you probably don`t do that. Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I take it, when you`re under attack, you never really know where that moment will be.

CARTER: No, unfortunately, you don`t.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: All right, Lauren Lake, did you hear this? I was sitting in the courtroom, and the defense took this witness, Lauren Lake, and they turned Professor Carter around to give this tutorial on self-defense and "stand your ground." It made perfect sense, and at the end of it, you`re saying, Well, George Zimmerman knew what he was doing. He was in imminent fear, because the jury has seen the facts. That helped the defense, Lauren Lake.

LAKE: Well, Jean, look, as a former criminal defense attorney, I tell it like it is. That`s some information that, of course, the prosecutor would be saying to themselves -- Oh, wow, we`re getting a class in self- defense. That`s not what we wanted to happen, even though they should have been prepared for it.

But let me say this. And at the end of the day, not only did they get information that supported the defense, they got information that supported the prosecution because this witness said this is fluid. Any fact, as we freeze-frame this story, can change the situation as to whether or not self-defense and deadly force was proper.

As we freeze-frame this case, Jean, we look at him getting out of the car when he was told not to, him following Trayvon. Freeze-frame, Rachel Jeantel saying that Trayvon was running. George Zimmerman saying Trayvon was running. Freeze-frame. That means was Trayvon in fear for his life? And even if Trayvon at the end of the day hit George Zimmerman, was he fighting for his life? That`s the question.

CASAREZ: And that was the -- that was what the prosecution said, Frank Taaffe, because at the end of that cross-examination, the prosecution alluded to the fact that it was Trayvon Martin that was trying to save his own life with the theory that we just heard about self-defense from Professor Carter.

TAAFFE: Jean, you know, we as human beings, isn`t it standard, or what we know of, that if something is perceived as a threat, do we move towards that threat or do we move away from it?

And let`s unfreeze one of those frames. George was on the phone with 911. They asked him, Are you following him? He said, Yes. They said, We don`t need you to do that. He says, OK.

He`s on the phone with the Sanford Police Department. He stays in contact with them. He clearly states that he can`t see him. He doesn`t want to give out the address. So I think if anybody was in fear at that moment -- we`ve got to take into consideration it was dark, it was raining -- he says, I can`t see this guy. And he`s on his way back to his truck.

And of course, in his testimony, his reenactment, he says that Trayvon came from him -- from the bushes, came out of the bushes. But there are bushes in that spot. So there are no real inconsistencies here. And this particular witness...

CASAREZ: Frank...

TAAFFE: ... today cannot be -- can`t be rehabbed to...

CASAREZ: You know, we had another bombshell today. We had a bombshell, and I want to go to Steve Helling, staff writer for "People" magazine. We have heard through this whole trial that George Zimmerman is a wannabe cop, a wannabe cop. We learned, Steve Helling, eight months before this happened, he was asked to write his career goals. He wants to become a lawyer.

STEVE HELLING, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: Yes, that was...

CASAREZ: Steve?

HELLING: ... fascinating to me. You know, it is fascinating that, you know, he -- he realized that maybe a cop wasn`t the right move for him, and he wanted to, of course, go into law in some way. That`s what his studies were for.

So obviously, he did have a working knowledge of law. I`m not saying he was a lawyer by any means, but he knew a little bit about Florida law, and that`s what he was studying. And so to say that he doesn`t know what "stand your ground" is, I don`t know, because that`s what he was studying, and he was an A student.

CASAREZ: But to Eleanor Odom...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you recognize the packaging?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you recognize it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) case number, the exhibit number and (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this is obviously a sweatshirt that you examined in the case?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And if you could show the members of the jury the area that you focused on as having a bullet that passed through it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This area right here was where I was looking, right underneath the Nike swoosh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And as with the previous exhibit, did you make a cutting from the exhibit?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Is that depicted on the back of the exhibit? If you would just turn around and look.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Both the cutting and then the area on the sweatshirt where it was cut out?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Just show that to the jury real quick. And that`s displayed again with the bullet hole through it from the test- fire?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez, in for Nancy Grace. Thank you so much for joining us.

Today was forensics day and it was heavy and it was serious. And the headline, the gun, the gun that the best friend, Mark Osterman, said yesterday that Trayvon Martin had touched because George Zimmerman told him that on the ride back from the police station that night in the early morning hours -- guess what? There was no DNA of Trayvon Martin on that gun.

Back out to Frank Taaffe. Frank, that`s another huge point for the prosecution because that best friend -- and I don`t think George Zimmerman calls this man his best friend, but he called him the very best friend he had ever had, George Zimmerman, to Mark Osterman -- that the gun was touched by Trayvon Martin. There`s no evidence of it, Frank Taaffe.

TAAFFE: You know, I believe that. In George`s original statement to the police, he said he was going for it. He was reaching...

CASAREZ: That`s right.

TAAFFE: ... he never said "reached."

CASAREZ: That`s exactly right.

TAAFFE: OK? Now, secondly...

CASAREZ: George Zimmerman never said that he touched it.

TAAFFE: Jean, let me share -- let me share something with you. Jean, let me share this with you. Very important that your viewers need to know. I have spoken personally with a gun expert. And when the state or the prosecution said that it was a contact shot, and then he had had the other person on the stand talking about the ins and outs, the intricacies of that weapon -- what they failed to say was that that particular weapon, when the muzzle is up against the body, the slide will go back. Even if it`s a slight slide backwards, the gun will -- it will prevent the gun from firing. This is known as out of battery (ph). We didn`t hear that.

CASAREZ: But what does that...

TAAFFE: You just heard that the gun was charged.

CASAREZ: ... have to do with anything?

TAAFFE: Because it goes to the prosecution`s case, Jean. Twice now, they said on opening and they stated today that it was a contact shot, that it was execution-style...

CASAREZ: It was a contact shot.

TAAFFE: ... and it was not -- it was not a contact shot, Jean.

CASAREZ: Yes, it was.

TAAFFE: It was intermediate shot. If you listen to...

CASAREZ: Lauren Lake...

(CROSSTALK)

CASAREZ: ... it was a contact shot with the hoodie...

TAAFFE: There couldn`t have been a contact shot.

CASAREZ: ... of Trayvon Martin, and this helps the defense.

LAKE: Right.

TAAFFE: Jean -- Jean, it was not a contact shot. It was intermediate.

CASAREZ: Lauren?

TAAFFE: It was 6 to 12 inches.

(CROSSTALK)

TAAFFE: And we know that because of the stippling on the fabric. The stippling -- the stippling around the fabric clearly shows that Trayvon Martin was hovering over George, and it was more pronounced -- the stippling, which is the gun residue, was more pronounced on...

CASAREZ: Lauren Lake, can you tell us...

TAAFFE: ... the front part of the fabric than...

(CROSSTALK)

LAKE: Jean, this is -- if -- I`d like to get in a word in edgewise. Listen, Jean, I`ve been vocal from the beginning, where I said I don`t care who was on the top and who was on the bottom because at the end of the day, Trayvon could have been on top trying to hold George Zimmerman down while he screamed for help, or maybe so his father could hear him.

TAAFFE: Right. That`s a stretch.

LAKE: What I want to talk about is that we could never...

TAAFFE: That is a stretch!

LAKE: Frank, let me finish my point...

TAAFFE: That`s a stretch!

LAKE: ... because I have let...

TAAFFE: Go ahead.

LAKE: I have let you do stretching and verbal calisthenics all evening, stretching this story...

TAAFFE: That`s a stretch.

LAKE: ... in your direction.

TAAFFE: Go ahead, please. Please.

LAKE: My point is...

TAAFFE: Please.

LAKE: My point is, is that we live in a "CSI" culture, that people value...

TAAFFE: OK...

LAKE: ... DNA evidence, forensic evidence. And if that doesn`t exist, if you say to a friend that, This guy touched my holster or my gun, and there`s no DNA, you can`t tell me that does not resonate with the jury.

TAAFFE: Excuse me!

(CROSSTALK)

LAKE: ... and Frank, for you to suggest...

TAAFFE: He did not write it down! He went according to memory. Listen to what Osterman said!

LAKE: For you to suggest that...

TAAFFE: Please.

LAKE: ... it doesn`t...

TAAFFE: Let`s talk about the facts!

LAKE: ... is simply unbelievable. Listen, I don`t talk about...

TAAFFE: Ma`am, let`s talk about the facts!

LAKE: ... the facts that you make up.

TAAFFE: Osterman was asked...

LAKE: I talk about the facts that they present in court.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez, in for Nancy Grace. Today was all about forensics. The gun -- Trayvon Martin`s DNA was not found on George Zimmerman`s gun. But when you talk about the blood, the blood that was all over the jacket of George Zimmerman and also in part on Trayvon Martin, it was George Zimmerman`s blood.

I want to go to our callers. We are taking your calls live tonight. First of all, Rebecca in California. Hi, Rebecca.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Thank you so much for taking my call, and thank you so much for covering this case.

CASAREZ: Of course. Thanks for calling, Rebecca.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely. I have a theory of what happened during the altercation based on an incident that happened to me. I have a feeling that what happened was, was when Zimmerman first approached Trayvon and asked him what he was doing there, I think Trayvon was scared and his first reaction was to run.

At that point, Zimmerman grabbed him, and because of the pavement being wet, they both slipped. That`s when Zimmerman hit his head on the pavement, and somehow, Trayvon ended up on top of him. I think Trayvon hit him in the nose to try to get away. And at that point, once he hit him in the nose and tried to get up, that`s when Zimmerman pulled his gun and shot him.

CASAREZ: So you`re saying that Zimmerman was the initial aggressor? The challenge is the prosecution doesn`t have the evidence that George Zimmerman pushed, hit or held Trayvon Martin.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY GORGONE, DNA LAB ANALYST: So swab A here was from the grip of the gun. And I did the chemical test for the possible presence of blood on this swab, which gave me a positive result, a profile which matched George Zimmerman.

And then the statistic here would be the random match probability, the probability that you would pick a random person off the street and that they would also -- that they would match that major DNA profile. And the comparison of my other standard, which would be from Trayvon Martin, to that mixture -- I determined that Trayvon Martin was excluded as being a possible contributor to that mixture.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So as to this part of the exhibit 203, the swab or the DNA that you developed from the pistol grip of the defendant`s gun is positive for blood, correct?

GORGONE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then, there was a mixture. The major was match to the defendant, George Zimmerman.

GORGONE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you were able to exclude Trayvon Martin as having DNA on the pistol grip, is that correct?

GORGONE: Yes, Trayvon Martin was excluded as being a possible contributor to this mixture on the grip.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez in for Nancy Grace. The prosecution wanted it in, they got it in. The school records of George Zimmerman. He took criminal litigation, and he got an A. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You generally are familiar with the law of self- defense in Florida.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The codification of the castle doctrine became Florida`s stand your ground law insofar as the use of self-defense?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can say that, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The castle doctrine is the notion that if you are in your castle, in your home, and you are attacked, you have no duty to retreat. Even if you can, you have no duty to retreat. You meet the force with force to defend yourself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Am I right, generally, on that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then, by -- by the evolution of that doctrine into what`s been generally characterized as stand your ground, what it did basically was allow someone to defend themselves outside their home if they are attacked.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Without the duty to retreat.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: So the defense worked so hard to turn this around, to say, okay, he got an A in the course, but he now knows exactly how to use self- defense, and when it is reasonable. But here`s the challenge. It`s because George Zimmerman said in an interview he didn`t even know what it was all about. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HANNITY: Yes, a lot of this case legally has to do with stand your ground. You`ve heard a lot about it. I was just curious. Prior to this night, this incident, had you even heard of stand your ground?

ZIMMERMAN: No, sir.

HANNITY: You never heard about it before?

ZIMMERMAN: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: Oh, Frank Taaffe. Frank Taaffe. This is such a challenge. I think this is the biggest point the prosecution made with all of this, Frank Taaffe, because George Zimmerman took the course. And the professor said he went over and over and over stand your ground in the course, because people could use it in their life. And also stand your ground, along with imperfect self-defense. That`s not good for the credibility of George Zimmerman.

TAAFFE: Jean, let`s -- Jean, let`s go back to this -- this night, OK? The law specifically says that deadly force is justified in the commission of a forceable felony, and in the state of Florida, there are certain crimes that are forceable felonies. One is rape. Another one is aggravated stalking. And a third is aggravated battery, or great bodily harm. And it`s defined that if Zimmerman`s head was being beaten on the concrete and the sidewalk can be used as a weapon, because it`s an extension of the body, and it`s a stationary object. And there`s case law to prove this, Jean.

CASAREZ: I understand all that. And a concrete slab can be a deadly weapon. Anything can be a deadly weapon. But, Lauren Lake, that`s not the issue. Lauren Lake, the issue is that he did an interview saying he didn`t know what stand your ground was, and he`d taken the course. That`s the problem.

LAKE: And, Jean, that is the problem. And that`s even heightened by the fact that remember when this case first came to light --

TAAFFE: But stand your ground is not applicable here. You`re missing the point.

(CROSSTALK)

LAKE: Jean, let me know when Frank is done talking.

(CROSSTALK)

TAAFFE: You`re missing the point. Stand your ground is not applicable. He had no duty to retreat. Where was he going to go? The statute is clear in stand your ground.

LAKE: Frank, Frank, Frank, if you --

TAAFFE: Listen to me. Listen.

LAKE: No, no, no, I can`t listen that anymore.

TAAFFE: You`re missing.

LAKE: You know why I can`t listen? Because you are stating the exact point I`m trying to make, if you`d be quiet.

TAAFFE: Tell me what stand your ground means to you. You`re a lawyer.

LAKE: I`m not arguing like this. Let me know when he`s done. Let me know --

TAAFFE: I`m done. I`m done with you. I`m done with you.

LAKE: You all let me know when -- you let me know when I can make a point. I`m not going to argue with this. And at the end of the day, Frank, I`m not going to be disrespected. I have given you a chance to talk.

TAAFFE: No one`s disrespecting you.

LAKE: If you had enough sense to just be quiet, you would understand that I am making the exact point you are making.

TAAFFE: You be quiet. What does stand your ground mean?

LAKE: I am making the point -- did you just say you be quiet? Did you just really say you be quiet? I have let you talk all evening. If you would just listen, you would see I`m making the point that you were making, that I don`t believe the stand your ground law has anything to do with this case, because in George Zimmerman`s account, he doesn`t even say he ever tried to retreat. He doesn`t even say that.

My point is is that he says, plain as day, to Sean Hannity, I don`t know anything about it. And at the end of the day, it was taught in the course. That is a lie. That is a lie. Upon the other lies that he`s told. And your disrespect of the other guests, Frank, in addition to your attitude that you bring to this story only brings more hostility to your friend George Zimmerman --

(CROSSTALK)

CASAREZ: Eleanor Odom, I want to ask you a really important question, because Lauren Lake makes a good point. Stand your ground is not now. Stand your ground was pretrial. Now we are in the trial, and it is self- defense. Is what the defense did today -- is it actually going to confuse the jury, do you think?

E. ODOM: Well, I hope not, and at the end of the day, it`s all going to come down to the credibility of the witnesses.

But, Jean, what I really like about the evidence that came out today, the forensics, remember, the blood spatter doesn`t lie. The DNA or lack of DNA doesn`t lie. That doesn`t change. You can`t manipulate that evidence. And that evidence speaks volumes as to how this crime actually went down.

Trayvon Martin`s DNA isn`t on the gun. So we know he didn`t touch it. The blood on the shirt, it shows exactly where he was shot and how. It suggests positioning of the bodies and where George Zimmerman was. So it gives George Zimmerman less and less credibility as each piece of this forensic evidence comes into play.

CASAREZ: But, you know, Peter Odom, do you see on the screen right there, as they`re showing the clothes -- I can tell you in the courtroom, it`s enclosed in plastic, in frames. Peter Odom, you know why?

P. ODOM: It looks like a museum piece.

CASAREZ: They took the wet, damp clothes, Peter Odom, and they put the wet, damp clothes in plastic bags. And so, the stench from those clothes and the mold that was on the clothes are so horrific that they had to enclose the clothes in plastic. Some of that DNA, Peter, could be gone.

P. ODOM: Well, that`s right. You know, any good forensic collection person knows that you don`t store biological evidence in plastic. You store it in paper. They didn`t do that.

But, Jean, I think it`s a real disservice from some of the people on your show who keep insisting that just because someone touches something, that their DNA is necessarily going to be left on it. And the fact that DNA is not on an object that someone touched means that they didn`t touch it. That is categorically not true.

What I`d encourage you to do, to educate your listeners so they know the truth, is get a good forensic person on. What they will tell you is that touch DNA is largely a myth. And the fact that Trayvon Martin`s DNA isn`t on that gun doesn`t mean he didn`t touch it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Incidentally, if both of those sweatshirts were being worn in their intended fashion -- that is, forward -- do the two bullet holes line up?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 128, what do we see there?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With this, we are looking at the tearing of the fabric. You can see there are a few gun powder particles, which are not easily depicted in this photo, as well as some light sooting and burning and singing of the ends of the fabric.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the reddish brown stains, that would be apparently blood?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not something that you applied?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: State`s 129. What is that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The inside of the hole that was in the previous photograph. Again, you can see a little better the sooting, the blackening surrounding the hole itself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you circle that for the jury as best you can?

OK.

And state`s 130.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And this is the test I had generated using a portion of the back of the garment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez in for Nancy Grace. We are live right here in Sanford, Florida. I want to go out to the callers. We are taking your calls live, to Mary and Sandy in Maryland. Hi, Sandy.

CALLER: Hi, Jane. How are you? I`m glad you took my call.

CASAREZ: I`m fine. Thank you for waiting.

CALLER: Oh, not a problem. I have a comment based on something Zimmerman said during the interrogation when, I believe, it`s Chris -- detective Chris Serino, he clearly said on the recording, he said he yelled for help, and the detective obviously heard him, because he said, who said help, and then he changed his statement and said, I yelled for help. I have a problem with that. It was at that point that I totally believe that Zimmerman was lying and he was flipping the script.

I believe that he -- it`s what they call a Freudian slip. I think he slipped. And if you listen to the recording, he clearly said he yelled for help. And so, I have a problem with the detective not calling him out on that. I haven`t heard anyone -- everybody, it seems, except for me, heard that. And so the thing with -- did you hear that?

CASAREZ: All right, Jonathan, you know, let`s go to Jonathan Beaton, reporter from News Talk Radio, WDBO. What do you know? We have heard so many witnesses say that they heard that help, and George said it right after the shooting, sort of as an excited utterance.

BEATON: Well, sure, yes. Most neighbors we`ve heard from did say they came out, or they maybe heard it from their kitchen or their bedroom, and they heard someone screaming for help. But, you know, for the most part, we`ve heard it from Zimmerman, but unfortunately, we can`t hear Trayvon Martin`s side. But his story has stayed pretty consistent where he says he was underneath Trayvon Martin, he was getting beaten, and he was the one screaming out for help, and John Good backs that story up.

CASAREZ: And you know, everybody, this issue is not finished, because we do believe that Trayvon Martin`s mother may take the stand, and she may say she believes that that is her son that is crying out for help. So, so dramatically and tragically on that recording.

We have got a really special guest tonight. He is sitting next to me right here in Sanford, Florida. Daryl Parks, how are you. It`s been so nice to get to know you, as we sit and do Nancy`s show together. Now we can talk together and we can have an intelligent conversation. This is what I want to ask you, though. We`ve heard so much DNA results, and the holster that George Zimmerman had, there was some mixed DNA on that. And Trayvon Martin could not be excluded from that holster.

PARKS: Well, but there`s other DNA you can consider. I think we`ve heard now about his DNA was not on the gun handle. But, also, you heard under his fingernails, you did not find any blood or DNA of --

CASAREZ: But who does that help right there? Because Trayvon Martin did not have George Zimmerman under his nails, that tells me Trayvon Martin wasn`t fighting for his life to -- well, at George Zimmerman.

PARKS: What it tells you, though, is this big altercation that happened, it wasn`t just a fight. It was wrestling, it was tussling, so clearly his hands were on George at various time, yet you didn`t find any of the DNA under Trayvon`s fingers.

CASAREZ: All right, do we have some time to run a little bit of sound, because I want Daryl to comment on this. All right. Let`s go back into the courtroom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And where are those typically located on the firearm?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: More times than not, you will find them right back here on either the left or the right side. But those are typically referred to as thumb safeties, as all you need is your thumb to disengage it. Or engage it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that firearm does not have any type of external safety?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. With the firearm in the condition that it is right now -- unloaded -- are you able to demonstrate for the jury how to pull the trigger and to make that sound?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your Honor, may she do that? May she demonstrate pointing it into the wall?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ll use my left just so you can see. I`ll do one more.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that`s all someone would need to do to fire a shot if it was fully loaded?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What type of firearm is it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is a .9-millimeter Luger caliber Kel Tec model P-09 (ph) semiautomatic pistol.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you mean by semiautomatic?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In very basic terms, semiautomatic means that a pull of the trigger is required for each shot to be fired.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what do you mean specifically by 9-millimeter?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 9-millimeter refers to the caliber of ammunition that the firearm is designed to fire.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you familiar with that brand of firearm, the Kel Tec brand?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How so?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve had the opportunity to tour their manufacturing facility twice as well as I have examined many of them over the course of my case work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez in for Nancy Grace. Believe it or not, we think the prosecution, that they are going to rest on Friday. Tomorrow, the Fourth of July, they have off, we have off, but on Friday, that may be the day that the prosecution rests, the defense begins.

I want to go out to Caryn Stark, psychologist joining us tonight. You know, Karen, as I sit in that courtroom and I want to know the psychological effect on the jury of this. I can tell, Caryn, in five minutes if a witness is for the prosecution or for the defense. I can just see it in their mannerisms, their demeanor. I mean, today, professor Carter when he sat down on the witness stand, had to identify George Zimmerman, he says, "hi, George, how are you doing?" Psychologically, Caryn, how is that going to affect the jury?

STARK: It really depends, because what you see here, Jean, is that people are so divided. There are people that are very much pro-Zimmerman, who feel that here`s a guy who shouldn`t be accused, he was doing his job. And then there are people who are pro-Trayvon, and they really feel like there is racism involved here and profiling.

And so, it`s very hard to tell, because everyone has tremendous emotion around this and feels very strongly. That`s why it`s like the whole nation is invested in what`s going on right now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CASAREZ: Tonight we remember 19 heroes, Arizona firefighters who sacrificed their lives battling the Yarnell Hill (ph) wildfire. Granite Mountain hot shots Eric Marsh, Andrew Ashcraft, Robert Caldwell, Dustin Deford, Christopher MacKenzie, Grant McKee, Sean Misner, Scott Norris, Wade Parker, John Percin, Anthony Rose, Jesse Steed, Joe Thurston, Travis Turbyfill, William Warneke, Clayton Whitted, Kevin Woyjeck, Garret Zuppiger, Travis Carter. True American heroes.

Oh, it`s so hard for me to get through American heroes, especially that, but I want to talk to you, because we`re getting to a really serious part of this trial, meaning near the end of the state`s case in chief.

First of all, I saw Trayvon`s mother leave early today. She wasn`t in the courtroom for the later part of the afternoon. Why not?

PARKS: Actually, you saw the mother and the father weren`t in. They were actually in the witness room outside of the courtroom.

I sort of believe that since with this witness, and we`re only going to the cross-examination by Don West, they should take a break. It`s very difficult to sit there day in and day out with the cameras right on, eight hours a day, Jean. So, at my advice, they took a break.

CASAREZ: As we`re nearing the end of the prosecution`s case in chief, there is a lot of belief that Sybrina Fulton will take the stand.

PARKS: I believe there is a strong likelihood. As her counsel, I have prepared her and other family members in the event that they do go on to testify and to tell the truth. But the actual call as to whether they testify or not is the state of Florida`s.

CASAREZ: What would she testify to?

PARKS: Well, she`ll testify probably to the voice recognition, obviously, right? And to who her son was. I think we need to humanize Trayvon. Trayvon was in high school, had just turned 17, and no one has told his story yet. We`ve heard George Zimmerman`s story. I wanted to learn about Trayvon, his life and who he was and his ambitions.

CASAREZ: When Dr. Nakasone (ph) was on the stand and he said that the best way to identify a screaming voice would be someone who knew that voice. Has there been anything in Trayvon`s life when he did scream, that his mother heard that scream and would be able to identify?

PARKS: For sure. She told me she`s heard him scream many times and she`ll be able to identify that voice, and that she`s prepared to do that. She recognizes that this is her chance to stand up for her son.

CASAREZ: What about Trayvon`s brother?

PARKS: Well, if he has to as well, he`ll do it, too. And you know, he`s a wonderful kid. He`s in school at FIU, and he`s prepared to go on if they want him to go on.

CASAREZ: Daryl Parks, thank you so much for joining us.

PARKS: Thank you.

CASAREZ: Everybody, Jane Velez-Mitchell is coming up next.

END