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Remembering Fallen Arizona Firefighters; What Next for Egypt?; George Zimmerman Trial Set to Resume
Aired July 4, 2013 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And we will roll on, hour two. Good to be with you on this Fourth of July. I'm Brooke Baldwin.
But in another place, more fireworks, but for a much different reason, live pictures, Cairo, Egypt. The crowds, the masses have returned to Tahrir Square. It is just past 9:00 at night there in Egypt. And as you remember, it was this time yesterday Egyptians by the hundreds of thousands embracing the fall of their religiously-oriented government.
Keep in mind it was the first elected government ever overthrown. So what now? Well, take a look with me, because this is the new leader for now. His name is Adly Mansour. He is a judge. Mansour is temporarily tasked with leading an interim government and organizing elections coming up here.
But keep in mind he was hand-selected by the military, his appointment announced by the general here, General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, head of the Egyptian armed forces. Al-Sisi rolled those tanks yesterday in support of all of those protesters, later announced the ouster of Egypt's first elected leader, Mohammed Morsy. Morsy, president yesterday, under house arrest today.
Speaking of arrest, unknown number of Morsy's supporters and Islamic religious leaders under arrest here. Keep in mind, Morsy's election just about one year ago sent shockwaves through Washington, D.C., which feared his ties to Islamic fundamentalists. The bottom line here is that Egypt's called off its first attempt at democracy. But it is vowing to try it again.
The coup that toppled Mohammed Morsy was largely bloodless, thus far, and apparently quite popular for now.
Let's go straight to Cairo to CNN's Ivan Watson with, again, my question, as we look, Ivan, as the dark has fallen now, I can hear the noises and I know I have seen the fireworks and the masses. Why did the folks return? They got -- Morsy's gone. Why are they back tonight?
IVAN WATSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, Thursday night is the beginning of the Egyptian weekend. So people are out to party.
But, yes, there's still euphoria and joy here in Cairo's central Tahrir Square. Fireworks going off. The crowds enormous, not quite as big as last night, but they are significant. And throughout the day, residents of this city were treated to a remarkable aerial display by the Egyptian air force, which were flying maneuvers over the Egyptian capital, drawing the shape of a heart with their vapor trails, also the colors of the Egyptian flag, and cheered on by many residents I saw out here in the street.
While this has been going on, this celebration, it has also been the night of the long knives, because the Egyptian security forces have shut down at least three pro-Muslim Brotherhood TV stations, arrested some of their employees. And they also have been rounding up some top officials from the Muslim Brotherhood as well as Mohammed Morsy himself, who I'm told by one of his spokesmen is now being held as of 5:00 a.m. this morning local time at the Defense Ministry.
Now, the general prosecutor of Egypt, he's come out saying that some of the people that Morsy had arrested, that he described as political prisoners, are expected to be released in the days ahead. This is what he had to say about the rule of law in this country. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABDEL MEGUID MAHMOUD, EGYPT PROSECUTOR GENERAL (through translator): We will take measures that are nothing but legitimate and constitutional and within the right legal procedures. We will not gloat and we will not settle scores with anyone or seek revenge from anyone. We will declare the law the sovereign.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATSON: And one more point, Brooke. The Muslim Brotherhood is not giving up. They're calling for parades tomorrow, marches in support of what they describe as the legitimate government, the first democratically elected president of Egypt, Mohammed Morsy, who is as of now in government custody -- Brooke.
BALDWIN: Ivan Watson in Cairo.
Joining me now from New York is Ed Husain. He is a senior fellow for Middle Eastern studies at the Council on Foreign Relations.
Ed Husain, welcome to you.
Let me pivot to the U.S. connection here, because today we learned that Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel spoke not just once, but twice in the past week to the head of the Egyptian armed forces. In fact, this is video. This is Hagel in April with General Sisi. This is a guy we saw on television just this time yesterday who basically was the one giving the order to overthrow Mohammed Morsy.
My question to you, sir, is how much sway does Washington have in terms of influencing events in Egypt?
ED HUSAIN, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: My understanding from discussions with people in Washington, D.C., both at the State Department and at the White House, is that they were not in full control, as they should not be in full control of events in Egypt. It was felt that the military coup was not something that was blessed by Washington, D.C. D.C. had gone out of its way via the ambassador, Ambassador Patterson in Cairo, to build excellent relations with the civilian government. Relations with the Muslim Brotherhood that had not existed in the previous 60 years were built over the last year, year-and-a-half. Those relations have not only been destroyed, but those relations are now increasingly being questioned as to how much can not just the Muslim Brotherhood but other organizations in the region that look to Washington, D.C., for support and alliance at times of need can be dependent on America.
Will America continue to stand by its allies, whether the democrats in the case of what happened in Egypt or whether the monarchs in the case of Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and elsewhere? I think that's the bigger question. What al-Sisi did was call into my conversations with people in the U.S. government not something that was approved of, not something that was endorsed and not something that was welcomed.
And I think that was reflected in the statement we got from the president yesterday, President Obama yesterday. That was, you know, cautious. It was -- he said he was deeply concerned. The U.S. government was deeply concerned. No support and no condemnation. So the U.S. is in a difficult place, a very difficult place, whether it supports the secularists in Egypt or whether it supports the Islamists or the vast majority in the middle.
Whatever the U.S. does, whatever stance it takes, it continues to come under fire from people in the region. It's pursuing or trying to pursue least lines of resistance in a very, very difficult region of the world.
BALDWIN: It's incredibly important not just from the perspective of the United States, but from Egypt. Keep in mind, the United States gives Egypt more than $1 billion each and every year in aid. And we know Egypt's going to want to continue getting that money.
But when you broaden it out, as you did briefly, bigger picture here, is there a lesson for all these Islamic fundamentalist movements in all of the Arab world who are sort of torn between working within the political system, i.e. Mohammed Morsy, and resorting to terrorism?
HUSAIN: That's an excellent question. And that's something that lots of people have wrongly been overlooking. So I'm delighted that you're asking this question, because many, many Islamist organizations -- by Islamist, I mean those who see religion as a political force -- have tried to take state power, to try control of governments through force. And they have failed.
Now they have tried to enter government through consensus, through the ballot box. And guess what? The secular elite, the opposition, divided opposition in Egypt comes together with their military, comes together with a biased media, uses the judiciary as activist political forces and overthrows an elected Islamist president.
He didn't even control parliament. He didn't have control over his own government. He was a figurehead, essentially, Morsy, for the many things that were going on around him. Yes, he made mistake after mistake. But the way you handle that is through contesting him at the next presidential election or asking him or forcing him to call for early elections. None of those things were happening. So democracy is not looking as attractive as it ought to be to the very people in the Middle East that we're trying to modify and moderate and bring into the system rather than keep them out and help fuel anti- Americanism.
And my concern is that this has nothing to do with the United States, what's happened in Egypt. This is the making of Egyptian themselves. Their government, their failures, their disunity, their protests, their military coup. But the can will carried by sadly and wrongly a perception that the United States again is to blame. And it's not.
BALDWIN: Ed Husain, senior fellow for Middle Eastern studies at the Council on Foreign Relations, mr. Husain, thank you very much.
HUSAIN: Thank you for having me.
BALDWIN: Did the prosecution save the best for last? Tomorrow is a huge day in this courtroom in Sanford, Florida and in this murder trial of George Zimmerman, because the state's remaining witnesses take the stand, the medical examiner who was the one to perform that autopsy on 17-year-old Trayvon Martin and -- and these are the big ones -- Trayvon Martin's brother and his mother. Why will their testimony be so crucial for the prosecution?
Well, it has to do with that 911 tape. I want you to take a look at what his mother, Sybrina Fulton, told Anderson Cooper.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: You have heard the 911 call where you hear somebody calling out help. Do you believe that is your son's voice?
SYBRINA FULTON, MOTHER OF TRAYVON MARTIN: Yes, I do. I believe that's Trayvon Martin. That's my baby's voice. Every mother knows their child. And that's his voice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Let's talk about this with Tanya Miller. She is back, defense attorney and former prosecutor, also Michael Grieco, criminal defense attorney joining us from Miami.
Tanya, to you. We heard from that audiologist at some point this week talking about familiarity of voice. Right?
BALDWIN: So presumably we could see, and this is a guessing game, we could see Sybrina Fulton take to the stand tomorrow and say that voice screaming for help, that is my son. Six female jurors. How much weight does that carry in this? TANYA MILLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That carries a lot of weight. The expert absolutely left this door open for the prosecution, which is why the prosecution called that expert in the first place.
These women are going to hear this mother tell them from the bottom of her heart, as sincerely as she possibly can, that that is the voice of her baby screaming for help in the seconds before his life was taken away. That is powerful, powerful testimony.
BALDWIN: Michael, let me move on and ask you about this. George Zimmerman, he faces murder in the second degree here. This is what he's charged with.
If the state so far, you know, different people have different opinions, has not yet made their case for depraved mind, how would the jury proceed?
MICHAEL GRIECO, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It might not get to a jury. I will tell you, there's an argument there that a judge could determine that second-degree murder has not been established. The -- maybe not now, but after the defense case, there's an argument for judgment of acquittal regarding whether or not the state has been able to prove Zimmerman's state of mind at the time in being a depraved mind.
The alternative is, is that the state can ask for a lesser included charge to go in front of a jury being manslaughter.
BALDWIN: Do you agree?
MILLER: Well, I disagree that there would ever be a judgment of acquittal in a case like this.
BALDWIN: No acquittal?
MILLER: No, no, no. That won't happen. You might see the state ask for the lesser included charge. We don't know that they will. But that's a possibility. And there's certainly enough evidence to support it, which is the standard. The court can give a lesser included charge if there is evidence to support it.
BALDWIN: Let's talk about this gun. We heard that the crime lab analyst talking. He took to the stand yesterday. And they talked about this gun, talked about swabbing this gun for DNA in four different places. And here is something he told the courtroom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe the fourth swab was taken from the holster itself. Tell us -- and that's the last part of this slide that I have shown you. Tell us if you could what your findings were regarding that.
ANTHONY GORGONE, DNA ANALYST: The swab from the holster tested negative for the possible presence of blood. The DNA testing gave me a mixture of DNA. I was able to resolve out a major DNA profile for the sample. And that major DNA profile matched George Zimmerman. And the statistical analysis is right here. It's the same one in 11 quadrillion Caucasians, one in 1.5 quintillion African-Americans, and one in 57 quadrillion Southeastern Hispanics. That would be for the probability of the major DNA profile.
As far as the minor or lesser contributors, I was not able to determine a DNA profile for any of those minor contributors. And when I made the comparison to Trayvon Martin, I was not able to include or exclude him from the mixture.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So as to the holster where you got a major, it matches George Zimmerman. Is that correct?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: So here's my question to you, Tanya. If he couldn't exclude or include Trayvon Martin's DNA on the holster, does that help? Does that hurt the George Zimmerman case who said, absolutely, I was shimmying and Trayvon Martin went and grabbed or went for my gun?
MILLER: I think that hurts George Zimmerman's case. Here's why. George Zimmerman said that Trayvon Martin had his hands, both hands, at some point in this struggle on his bloody face.
If Trayvon Martin removed his hands from George Zimmerman's bloody face and then reached that gun and touched that holster, you would see blood on that holster. That is powerful evidence that the state is going to use and going to argue to show among other things that George Zimmerman's story is completely false and exaggerated in that regard.
BALDWIN: Huge day tomorrow for the state.
BALDWIN: Tanya Miller, thank you so much.
MILLER: Thank you.
BALDWIN: Michael Grieco, thank you as well.
GRIECO: Thank you.
BALDWIN: Next to this video you have to see. The sinkhole swallows a car in Ohio, swallows the whole thing. This woman who was inside talks about her frightening experience as this road just gave way.
And then later this hour, please stay with us. We are remembering the Hot Shots, those 19 young men killed in an Arizona wildfire. We will show you how this community, this tight-knit community in Arizona is coping on this holiday.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BALDWIN: The world has been watching and waiting for an update in the condition of South Africa's first black president, a man who was imprisoned under the racist apartheid time for 27 years.
And now we are hearing that his condition could be deteriorating even further. I speak of the iconic Nelson Mandela.
Let's go to CNN's Nkepile Mabuse, what is in Pretoria, South Africa, where Mandela has been in this hospital since the 8th of June.
Nkepile, what are you learning?
NKEPILE MABUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, we just received information, and I must just stress that this is from an affidavit that is dated the 26th of June. We just have to keep that in mind, that this advocate that is representing the Mandela family submitted this affidavit stating that Mr. Mandela's health has taken a turn for the worse, that the Mandela family has been advised by medical practitioners that his life support machine should be switched off.
And it adds that rather than prolong his suffering, the Mandela family is exploring this option. Of course, this has raised lots of concerns in South Africa around whether Mr. Mandela's condition is still at this state, because we have been hearing from the president saying Mr. Mandela is in a critical, but stable condition.
Brooke, we heard from Mr. Mandela's wife as well, Graca Michel, saying that although Mr. Mandela may sometimes be uncomfortable, very few times he is in pain. She is saying today that Mr. Mandela is fine. So that's why I have to stress, Brooke, that this document, it seems, was written on the 26th of June.
So we don't know whether Mr. Mandela's health has improved since then, or, you know, we should be asking questions about the information that we have been getting from the presidency, Brooke.
BALDWIN: I know it's been difficult getting information from the hospital. But, you know, it's a family and their loved one is ailing and it's a confidentiality issue I know as well.
Nkepile Mabuse from Pretoria, South Africa, on this icon of peace and reconciliation, Nelson Mandela.
And we will be right back.
BALDWIN: Well, question. What's the last thing you want to happen when you are out on the road? How about this? Look at this. Peering through this massive, gaping hole in this road in Toledo, Ohio, we see a car and a woman who was praying to keep calm during this whole ordeal. What a story.
Nick Valencia is here.
NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Terrifying. BALDWIN: Terrifying. Can't imagine. The street just, boom, gave way.
She's driving along on this busy street and all of a sudden this hole just opens up beneath her. The city official I spoke to says they blame it on a broken water main. Just listen to the 911 calls, frantic witnesses calling police trying to get her some help.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. A car just fell through the street. A car just fell through the street on Detroit and Bancroft. A hole opened up and it...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: OK, listen. Detroit and Bancroft. What kind of vehicle?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't know, a tan Malibu is in the hole. It sunk in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: It sunk in.
VALENCIA: That hole at least 10 feet, probably closer to 20 feet. And a city official I spoke to said it's an antiquated system, this sewage system, made of brick. Look at those bricks right there, Brooke, built back in 1891.
BALDWIN: What did the driver say?
VALENCIA: She thanked God. She was very thankful to be alive. And in fact a local affiliate interviewed her. Listen to what she had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAMELA KNOX, SURVIVOR: It wasn't like, and then it was over. No. It was falling and rolling. As the car was falling, I just kept calling on the name of Jesus and I just kept saying Jesus, Jesus, Jesus.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VALENCIA: This was an infrastructure failure. It wasn't a natural occurrence like the sinkholes we see, geological natural occurrence like we see in Florida. This was because of a broken water main system. She's just thankful to be OK.
BALDWIN: Get the system fixed. This doesn't need to happen again.
BALDWIN: Nick Valencia, thank goodness she's OK. Appreciate it.
VALENCIA: You bet.
BALDWIN: Coming up, the search for Madeleine McCann. She's the little girl who disappeared while on vacation back in 2007 with her parents. Now we're hearing from police from Scotland Yard that there is reason to believe this little girl might be alive.
BALDWIN: There is new hope today in the case of this British toddler who disappeared six years ago in Portugal. Investigators now say what they're calling new findings and new witness evidence, and there is a possibility Madeleine McCann is still alive.
British police have identified 38 people of interest they hope to interview, many of them British nationals. The 3-year-old was on vacation with her parents when she disappeared.
Coming up next, I hope you please stay with me on this Fourth of July because we're taking a half-hour to remember the 19 lives lost, the young men who were killed in that Arizona wildfire over the weekend. We're calling the special "Remembering the Hot Shots." We will take you to Prescott, Arizona, live and find out how this community is coping with this devastating loss.