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The Crash of Flight 214 Examined; Train Carrying Crude Oil Derails and Burns; The Crash Caught on Camera; U.S. Silent on Egypt's Political Chaos

Aired July 7, 2013 - 18:00   ET



The passenger jet that crashed and burned on landing yesterday was going way too slow and was flying way too low. This is an exclusive video showing Asiana 214's final seconds in flight.

The Boeing 777 smashed into the runway, broke into pieces killing two of the more than 300 people onboard that plane.

I want you to listen to what the NTSB boss says they learned so far from the cockpit recordings.


DEBORAH HERSMAN, NTSB CHAIRWOMAN: A call from one of the crew members to increase speed was made approximately seven seconds prior to impact. During the approach, the data indicate that the throttles were at idle and air speed was slowed below the target air speed.


LEMON: The number from the people onboard, 182 rushed to the hospital around the city, rushed to hospitals around the city. Six of them are in critical condition. Two passengers who were on the plane died, but amazingly, more than 100 people walked away without a scratch.

Now, I want you to see and hear the video that Fred Hayes shot yesterday. He has no idea he is about to witness a disaster. Watch and listen.


FRED HAYES, RECORDED ASIANA AIRLINES CRASH: Look at him. Yes, he does. Look at that one. Look how nose is up in the air.

Oh, my God. Oh, it's an accident!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're filming it, too.

HAYES: Oh, my God!


HAYES: Oh, my God! Oh, my God! UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God! You're filming it.

HAYES: Oh, my God! Oh, my God! Oh, my God.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You filmed the whole thing.

HAYES: Oh, Lord, have mercy. Oh, my God.


LEMON: Lord have mercy is right.

A few minutes ago I talked to Fred Hayes on the phone.


HAYES (via telephone): You know, I was like, look at that guy. His nose is pretty high. So, you know, it was one of those things where -- you know, I -- it appeared to me that the pilot was trying to converse the landing. That's kind of appeared to me.

It's surreal. My wife Gina (ph), she took it hard. We did. We all did. It was, you know, a tragedy.

And our initial reaction was that everybody on the plane was in bad shape. We're just real that, you know, it was minimal, you now, and not everybody on the plane lost their life.


LEMON: Let's get the very latest on the investigation now.

Straight to CNN's Dan Simon. He's at San Francisco International Airport, where an NTSB update gave us plenty of new information last hour, Dan. What new information are we learning now?

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we got a lot of new information and we want to be precise in terms of how we talk about it. But the bottom line is, is that crew knew there was going to be a lot of trouble just seconds before the crash. And crews, they were able to get all this information from the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder.

So, let's talk about some of the highlights. We know seven seconds before the crash, there was a call for an increase in speed, which means that the pilot knew that the aircraft was not going fast enough to make a successful landing.

Six seconds before the impact, they had what you call a stick shaker, which means the aircraft was in danger of stalling. If the aircraft stalls, you don't get any lift and you're really going to have an enormous problem. One and a half seconds before impact, the pilot calls to initiate, quote, "a go around". What that means is they knew there was going to be trouble. They wanted to abort the landing, make the airplane go up, if you will, and then make another circle to the runway and then try to land the plane once again. The question was asked to the NTSB chairperson if this suggests there was some sort of pilot error. We want to make it very clear at this point the NTSB is not drawing any conclusions, at least publically, based upon the information they got. They say all things at this point are on the table, but, of course, pilot error is going to be one thing they are going to be looking at very, very closely -- Don.

LEMON: Dan Simon, thank you very much.

We are going to talk to a pilot now. Dan Rose is here with us. He's a former military pilot, private pilot now, and an aviation attorney.

Can we go over the points the NTSB -- the chairwoman and her conference said the aircraft was configured for approach based on cockpit voice recordings, communications between the crew and cockpit, the speed of the approach 137 knots. When questioned later, she said it was significantly below that. She said we are not just talking about a few knots, but significantly below that.

Approach, though, she said proceeds normally as a descent. No discussion of any aircraft anomalies or concerns with the approach. A call from a crew member to increase speed was made approximately seven seconds prior to impact.

DAN ROSE, AVIATION ATTORNEY: Yes, that's troubling. Even the call itself is actually troubling to increase speed. It should really be to increase power, because increase speed arguably could be pushing the nose down even further. In that situation would be a problem.

It's troubling that they're waiting until that very late point to even address the speed. That is something that should be addressed at 500 feet. Certainly any time below that, any time you get a call that the speed is not the target speed which is that 137 knot speed, she -- Deborah Hersman referenced, you need immediate reaction to it, immediate corrective action and it can't deviate more than five knots, really.

LEMON: OK. Here is the sound of the stick shaker occurs approximately four seconds prior to impact.

ROSE: Yes, and that's -- you know, just the ultimate clue that there is something gone terribly wrong here. And it requires immediate reaction and the reaction has to be full power and try to get the plane away from the ground.

LEMON: Explain to the viewers stick shaker. What does that mean?

ROSE: Stick shaker is when you look at the cockpit and you see the control yoke, which is similar to the steering wheel. It has a system in it that for instance, in this case, assuming target speed was 137 knots, say, at about 120 or so or 125 knots, when it's -- that's already too slow for this approach, the system would start shaking. Literally start shaking the control wheel so that there is no way the pilot does not know that he's dangerously slow. And the immediate reaction upon that is full power.

LEMON: Is it fair to say if that happens, if that starts to shake that you're in trouble or you're about to be?

ROSE: You're about to be. It's a warning system that says you're coming dangerously slow to too slow an air speed where the plane is going to start falling out of the sky.

LEMON: OK, it says, according to the flight data recorder which captured the entire flight, it says during the approach the data indicated, indicates that the throttles were idle and air speed was slowed before the target air speed. It was slowed, did they slow down initially? Is that what she means?

ROSE: She means the power was all the way back to idle. That's like, you know, you're in your car and you don't touch the accelerator. You're just trying to cruise, I don't know to get to gas station or something, not touching the power, even though you need more power. And he's hoping to try to make the runway or not processing the fact he can't make it under this situation.


ROSE: And instead of adding power to make sure he gets to the runway, he's slowly pulling up the nose of the aircraft which is what the witness reported seeing and the video shows. What he is trying to do there is stretch it to get to the runway which is completely the wrong thing to do.

Now, why he did that, you know, if it's just a piloting issue or there were systems onboard the plane that may have contributed to confusion, there is a system called auto throttles which is supposed to work the throttles for you but it has limitations. He may or may not have been aware of that for instance if you're below 400, 500 feet, the power of the auto throttles is not going to come on automatically like he may have expected. So, that may have contributed.

But the bottom line is he needed power and he didn't put it on.

LEMON: Dan Rose, stick around. Thank you very much. We'll be back. We'll get back with you.

More than 300 people survived the catastrophic crash. Some walked away unharmed while 182 were taken to hospitals. The most critical are at San Francisco General Hospital, the city's only level 1 trauma center.

And that's where we find our Kyung Lah. She's there now.

Kyung, what is the very latest.

KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the very latest and forgive me for peeking off my shoulder her, Don. I was making sure that it hadn't started yet. We are actually expecting to get the latest update from this hospital.

This is, as you said, the level 1 trauma hospital for this city. So, the most seriously injured were brought here. They did admit out of the 53 who arrived here, 19 patients. At last word, we heard that there were six critical, one of them a child. And some of the things we are concerned about, head trauma as well as two patients that appeared to have spinal injuries that led to some paralysis.

But what we've been hearing from patients and survivors throughout the day matching very much what you've been hearing from aviation experts, from the people from that extraordinary video that shows the exact moment of impact.

One man we spoke to, Eugene Rah, he says he looked out the window. He saw water. He knew they were going to crash and he thought, "I am going to die."

Here is what he told us.


EUGENE RAH, CRASH SURVIVOR: I looked out through the window and I knew something was wrong. That's because, you know, we were too low. You know, I've been -- I've been through that situation so many times so I know where we are supposed to be at.

We were, you know, approaching to runway. At one point I felt this is not right. That's because I see water right there, right there, right outside the window. I should not.

I knew. I knew it was going to happen. So, I tried to hold on whatever I could. I hear the noise, the pilot try to send as much power as he could. Try to lift the plane back up but it didn't work.


LAH: Rah has flown Asiana Airlines hundreds of times, 173 times, to be exact. He has a picture of his boarding pass showing how many times he has flown on Asiana. He says now, Don, after all this, he doesn't know if he could ever step on to a plane again -- Don.

LEMON: Kyung Lah, thank you very much. We appreciate that.

Before we go to break, a quick question for Dan Rose.

Dan, we were listening to the gentleman there. And I've been hearing other people, you know, sort of allude to this. But could there be a communication problem issues here?

ROSE: There certainly could be. I mean, I think that's one of the things that the NTSB is going to look at closely is perhaps the lack of communication, because the core -- the crew concept in an airline is that you have a pilot and co-pilot and they are cross checking each other to make sure the plane is progressing safely.

If you have an environment where the co-pilot is -- the first officer is afraid to point out to a pilot that something is not going right until the very end, that's a problem.

LEMON: The reason I asked you that because you are an aviation attorney. By the way, he's a current pilot, it says former pilot, he's a current pilot. But you're an aviation attorney.

The reason is, in different cultures, you don't question the lead person, correct? He said?

ROSE: Well, that certainly came out of the Korean Airlines crash in Guam that we handled decades ago where the issue was the first officer not because of the cultural background, feeling intimidated by the pilot. It's not just a cultural aspect in terms of Koreans or Asians. I mean, we had the same problem here in the U.S., but we spent a lot of time focusing on the importance of being able to challenge the captain, the leadership of the cockpit, if you will, to make sure he's doing the right thing and the plane is progressing safely.

LEMON: Yes, great question, great perspective as an aviation attorney. Stand by, Dan Rose. It's good to have you here sitting on the step with me and actually helping me through -- guiding me through this coverage.

The flames are still burning and the death toll is expected to rise in the small Canadian town where a run away train exploded.

A news conference was just held by investigators, the details in a live report.

And those 19 fallen Arizona firefighters make a solemn return home.


LEMON: Back to the crash of Flight 214 in just a moment.

Other news now:

We are learning new details about a major train accident near the Canadian/U.S. border. An unmanned train pulling 70 tankers of crude oil broke free, rolled seven miles down a hill and then derailed and exploded yesterday. Flames from the burning car spread to a small Canadian town near the Maine border. At least five people were killed in the inferno, but that number could rise, about 40 still missing.

Our Jason Carroll has been looking into this accident.

Jason, what are investigators telling us?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, certainly, they are looking for the locomotive event recorder. If they're able to find that, Don, that will help get more information.

But here's what's so chilling. The coroner there on the ground at the scene, she says there is a possibility that some people may have been vaporized because of the intensity of the explosion. Canada's prime minister spoke not too long ago. He described the aftermath as looking somewhat like a war zone. Emergency officials say they are expecting more deaths as workers manage to get into the worst areas affected.

The devastation began unfolding early yesterday morning, Saturday morning. That's when a train transporting 70 tankers of crude oil, which has been parked nearby, slipped downhill and derailed in the town of Lac-Megantic in Quebec province. This triggered a series of large explosions. At least 30 buildings were engulfed in flames.

Authorities evacuated more than 2,000 people. But many still remain missing. Witnesses on the ground are trying to come to terms with all that has happened in their small town.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The last explosion was the biggest. This one, I saw the fire went at least 200, if it's not 300 feet high.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I heard people saying that they were running into street, trying to avoid the fire, jumping in the lake. It's like you can see it in Hollywood movies. This is terrible, terrible.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I have no news from my friend. I haven't heard from any of them. I can't say more than that. We are waiting for confirmation. We are waiting.


CARROLL: Well, some in the town are calling it the runaway train, this after Montreal Mid-Atlantic Railway confirmed that the train had been locked down a locomotive engineer. The engineer apparently then left for a crew change. And according to the company, soon after the train rolled into town, it rolled in unmanned.

The company released a statement saying, "We extend heartfelt condolences to the residents of Lac-Megantic, who lost their homes and businesses, and particularly those who have suffered injuries and lost loved ones. MMA will cooperate with the government safety agencies in trying to determine a cause."

Again, emergency workers have recovered five bodies so far. And also an estimated 40 people, Don, are still unaccounted for.

LEMON: Forty, and, Jason, you mentioned you said some of them may have been vaporized.


LEMON: Do you know when investigators will get a handle how they can figure out who is missing and what's going on there?

CARROLL: Yes, I think it's all going to depend and be determined, Don, how soon they can get to some of the areas that you're seeing right there in that video. As you can see, two of the five cars that derailed are still smoldering, still very hot, still too dangerous for investigators to get in there and see what's down in that area.

I should also tell you that in this particular part of the town where these trains derailed and the explosions occurred, apparently from what we are hearing from witnesses on the ground, there are a lot of people who were in bars and restaurants in that area. Because of the extent of the explosion, emergency officials are saying it's likely some of those people got caught up in that explosion.

This is a very small town, Don. Some 6,000 people live there. You've heard this description before. It's one of those towns where everyone seems to know each other. And so, when people there say, look, my cousin is missing, my sister, my friend is missing, that's why investigators are taking this so very seriously.

LEMON: It's just an unbelievable story. You look at the pictures, it's incredible. Jason Carroll, thank you so much, Jason.

Today a road trip that is breaking hearts across Arizona and the nation. Procession of 19 hearses with 19 flags traveled on the journey of more than 90 miles. It is a tribute to the Arizona firefighters trapped in a wildfire last Sunday, the deadly event for firefighters since 9/11.

The 19 men were part of a specialized force called the Granite Mountain Hotshots. Their procession went from Phoenix where the bodies were taken to Prescott, the men's home base.

Upheaval in Egypt. The United States government staying neutral as the president is ousted by his army. But is that the right position for us to take? We're talking about it, next.


LEMON: This is just into CNN. The wife of the Secretary of State John Kerry, she is ill. An ambulance took Teresa Heinz Kerry to the hospital this afternoon from the couple's home in Nantucket, Massachusetts.

Now, this is coming from a source close to the Kerry family. No word on what caused her illness. We will update you on CNN as soon as we get that.

Let's get to San Francisco general hospital, of course, in San Francisco. A news conference is happening now. Let's listen.


Good afternoon, everybody.

I indicated earlier at the airport I wanted to come down and visit, if anything, to thank the hospital administration, the doctors, the surgeons.

I'm here with Barbara Garcia, director of public health and her wonderful staff.

I had a chance to talk with a couple of the surgeons and personally thank them. They were working very hard, but they also felt the pulse of San Francisco and the Bay Area. They said there were droves of volunteers that forged in here when they heard the news of the airplane crash incident that occurred. They knew there was going to be a lot of patients coming here to S.F. General. This is one of the best hospitals you'll ever find in our country. I want to just thank all the people here on behalf of San Francisco government and the people.

Had a chance to not just say thank you to the doctors, but to the nurses, to the administrators, to the emergency staff. All of them work as a very strong team. Many of them are here again this morning coming in early to see what they can do with these critical patients as well as those that are recovering from their serious injuries. It's remarkable.

And I repeat what I think the surgeon chief said yesterday that but for the triage that occurred immediately on the crash site itself, bringing these folks over here to S.F. General and to the over 11 other different hospitals, we wouldn't see these miracles happening with survivor rates as we are seeing today.

The consul general of Korea, the consul general offices of China, as well as the officers from Asiana and United Airlines are all here helping out with the volunteers, helping out with the social workers at the hospital and through our public health department to give comfort and to help with the transition.

I had a chance to talk with a couple of -- about three of the kids that are recovering and they are, I didn't want to ask them about anything that happened on the airplane because I think they are still experiencing a level of trauma, but they smiled, at least. They seem to be glad to be here in San Francisco, and they are getting the best service that we can possibly provide.

I also had a chance to talk with a couple of the adults. There are still questions about calling back to Shanghai and getting a connection for them. They lost everything from clothes to their telephones. And the staff here is helping them make that connection as we speak because it was too early a fewer hours ago to call back to shanghai. But now I think is the appropriate time to make that call to get hold of their family back in Shanghai. Someone can answer the phone there in the wee hours of the morning and they are awakening hopefully to a call from a family connection they have wanted to hear from all these hours.

These are the stories that will come out the next few days as we get all of the patients a little more stabilized. As Rachel said earlier that, she will give you updates as they occur. But I am just so happy to see so much of our life-saving expertise at work on an hourly basis here at the hospital.

And I'm sure this story repeats itself with all the other hospitals whether they are at St. Francis or down at Stanford. This incredible reaction of volunteers and doctors and surgeons coming to save these people's lives and to prolong and make sure that they are adjusting properly.

As we said at the airport, not much I can say at this time because the National Transportation Safety Board has taken over the investigation. All of the agencies including police and fire and airport emergency staff are now cooperating with them as they go through in minute detail every aspect of this incident and make sure they cover all the grounds from the way it happened to what occurred on the crash site itself and saving lives all the way up to now.

So I appreciate your patience in the media. I know there are still a lot of questions to be asked about everything from the systems and the travel, the airlines, chairperson, Deborah Hersman will continue having her conferences to advise on all the details of that.

So, I'll take a few questions at this time.


LEE: I don't have any information with respect to that particular description. I will say that all incidents that happen on the crash site itself are being reviewed. They have a particular section that Ms. Hersman described a survivor assessment that will take into analysis every truck that was on the scene, what occurred on the site, where they found fatalities outside as well as how people got out of the airplane. All of that will be assessed. But I do not have any details about what you just mentioned.

REPORTER: Has anybody mentioned that to you?

LEE: There were talk about it, but it wasn't verified. And I would suggest to you that both the fire chief, the coroner's office, and of course the chairperson of the NTSB would have direct -- more direct information about that.


LEE: Well, again, there are reports that suggested that when the back of the airplane opened up, there could have been people thrown out of that aspect of the airplane. So we just don't know the details of it. And again, we're going to ask everybody for their patience as all these details come to light. We're not going to second guess any of the investigation. There are so many agencies whose notes and reports have to be compared and collaborated.

And they also have to be collaborated with the coroner's report about how death might have occurred on each of the fatalities, as well. As any reports that come out of this hospital and all the other hospitals. Thank you.


LEE: Well, there are a lot of reports that were given to me. Some substantiated, some not. And I cannot go into detail about that. I won't. Because they are unsubstantiated. When we were out at the crash site yesterday potentially looking for additional bodies, we had all kinds of speculative conversations that were going on. And everybody was patient to say that we have to wait for all these reports.

Yesterday when we're on the site, my personal concern was whether or not we had still passengers that were not accounted for at the time. And so I was very nervous about whether or not we would find additional evidence as we comb the fuselage of the airplane. That was really on my mind as everybody else was talking about what they were observing.

But I will say this. It was very, very hectic, very emergency mode, at the crash site minutes after the airplane came to rest and there was smoke inhalation and people were coming out of the fuselage as fast as they could. I also observed that the emergency chutes were only evidenced on one side of the airplane.

And I think people had to literally jump out of the other side of the airplane. So there's just a lot of confusion. And I know what was on the mind of the emergency responders that were arriving that they had to get triage to those that were already injured on the ground, as many as they could see. And they also had to prevent possible explosion of smoke and fire that they were evident coming out of the airplane. That's all I could verify.


LEE: Well, you know, I don't know -- again, you have to ask the firefighters and the first responders for that. There was a lot of smoke at the site. Thank you. Thank you very much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, all. Any other questions about the hospital patients?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For the adults. I don't have an age range on the children.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Yes. All of the children are under 18. There are some teenagers, there are some not teenagers. But I don't have a range specifically. But it is a mix. Hang on. I can't hear you both. What?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. But it is a minor.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And it's a girl. Yes.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't have -- no, I don't have anything new on that. Yes. So -- I don't know that either. I'm sorry. I really don't have anything much more than this morning. I'm just trying to be consistent with giving information. So this will be it for today.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: OK. Giving updates at the hospital and you saw they just were basically updating what's going on now. Given a patient update, talking about reuniting patients with their family members and what have you. And the mayor there, Edwin Lee, really thanking everyone for such a coordinated, in his estimation, response here.

So the former inspector general of U.S. Department of Transportation has been sitting right here with me watching this press conference, looking at that exclusive video into CNN of the moment that plane crashed at San Francisco International Airport.

Mary Schiavo is with me. There's the video. Boy, do I have questions for her on the other side of this break.


LEMON: We continue now with our coverage of the crash of Flight 214. And we have new video of the Asiana flight, its final seconds. I want you to watch this.


FRED HAYES, RECORDED ASIANA AIRLINES CRASH: Look at him. Hmm. Yes. Yes, he does. Look at that one. Look how his nose is up in the air. Oh my god. It's an accident.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are filming it, too.

HAYES: Oh, my god.


HAYES: Oh, my god.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're filming it.

HAYES: Oh, my god. Oh, my god. Oh, my god.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You filmed the whole thing.

HAYES: Oh, Lord, have mercy.


LEMON: Fred Hayes was just taking video of planes taking off and landing yesterday when the Boeing 777 hit the ground, nearly flipped over and started burning. I want you to listen to the head of the NTSB today. She says the cockpit recorder gives no indication that anything was going wrong.


DEBORAH HERSMAN, NTSB CHAIRWOMAN: The approach proceeds normally as they descend. There is no discussion of any aircraft anomalies or concerns with the approach. A call from one of the crew members to increase speed was made approximately seven seconds prior to impact. The sound of the stick shaker occurs approximately four seconds prior to impact. A call to initiate a go-around occurred 1.5 seconds before impact.


LEMON: Right now, two priorities. First, the survivors who are injured, 182 people were rushed to hospitals around the city. Six of those survivors are in critical condition. Two teenagers who were on the plane died, but amazingly more than 100 people walked away from this crash.

Priority two is what happened? What caused this Asiana Airlines 777 to slam into the ground? Break into pieces and catch fire? The flight data recorders are now in the hands of the right people, as you heard from the chairwoman of the NTSB. And they've got a million questions to answer. Their investigation might take a long time but it begins today.

That video of that crash will no doubt help investigators answer some key questions, what happened?

Mary Schiavo is a former inspector general for the Transportation Department, and she is here. The U.S. Department of Transportation. She is here.

I saw you listening to Miss Hersman and watching that video and you looked very troubled.

MARY SCHIAVO, FORMER INSPECTOR GENERAL, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION: I was because there were so many things that could have saved it. First and foremost is the air speed. Air speed is always the airman's friend and the air speed was deteriorating. And there have been so many recent accidents where the pilot did not stay on top of the air speed and air speed deteriorated leading to a disaster, such as the flight from Rio to Paris a few years back on Air France. The cold in-flight up in Buffalo.

That air speed has to be monitored closely. And to see it deteriorating that close to a landing is very troubling. But again that's why the black boxes are so very important to provide that data.

LEMON: And when you -- when you heard her say -- she mentioned the knots, you said, and the shaker, the stick shaker, you -- another sigh because?

SCHIAVO: Well, the stick shaker -- the fact that the stick shaker activated is a very important clue. And that means that the air speed had continued to deteriorate. They hadn't increased it. At that point so close to the ground, you don't have a lot of options. Ordinarily the stick shaker goes off with something called a stick pusher and you put the nose down to get your air speed up.

You can't do it that close to the ground. So they really had to increase the power, increase the air speed and they had so few seconds it was almost impossible to do that. Seven seconds out they could have, but 1.5 seconds or just before they hit the wall, they were out of time. LEMON: They were out of time. Stand by. This is also new into CNN. New pictures. I want you to look at this with me. This is from the National Transportation Safety Board inside the aircraft. Look at that. What do you make of that?

SCHIAVO: Well, two things. This scene couldn't have happened 15 years ago because newer aircraft and the 777 is of course one of the newest, had a perfect record almost until this. But the G-forces on the seats was strengthened. Those seats can withstand greater G- forces than ever before. And if seats collapse on top of each other there are more casualties and injuries. But the fact that most of the seats held is a very, very good sign. And the fact the interior wasn't burned means that so many people were able to live.

But cabin survivability has been a big push in the United States by the NTSB and by the FAA. They want to be able to get people to survive a crash.


SCHIAVO: And this one was survivable.

LEMON: All right. Again these are new pictures into CNN from the National Transportation Safety Board. Do we have another? There we go. The outside of the aircraft now, Miss Schiavo.

SCHIAVO: The outside of the aircraft because so much of the burning took place after persons got off. It looks so very familiar to another case that I worked on which was the case of Air France making the runway overshoot at Pearson Airport in Toronto. There -- just as here, the passengers were able to get off. They got off the plane. And after they were off the plane burned entirely.

But that 90-second requirement that you have to get everyone off that plane in 90 seconds saves so very many lives. And you know some of the newer planes now, and not the 777, but some planes they say well, we can model this. And we don't have to be so stringent. But you have to get people off in 1.5 minutes with some of the doors malfunctioned and debris thrown around the cabin.

When they do the test, they actually have to throw suitcases around the cabin. They use dummies to signify it's children or babies. They have to get pillows and blankets. And it's that kind of requirement, those regulations saved lives. And they certainly did here and several recent accidents.

LEMON: We saw one photo with Deborah Hersman, the chairwoman for the National Transportation Safety Board. And those are great pictures. We should put them back.


LEMON: And look at that. There is the landing gear, a part of the landing gear.

SCHIAVO: And that's very telling, too, because that shows that the impact that it hit. Once they hit that seawall there really was no opportunity to go around. Because once they had an impact, the air speed deteriorated so much. Putting in power or calling for a go round that close to impact just wouldn't do anything. And to hit that hard that the gear would come off is a very, very significant blow. There would at that point be no way to do a go round.

LEMON: And then the top of the plane as we saw burned. And it didn't appear to be an explosion. Many people think was an explosion was that -- you see, but that's dirt.


LEMON: Rather than an explosion. Why did it burn afterwards?

SCHIAVO: Well, because of the -- it caught fire just like any debris. There are parts of the plane still to this day, planes are flammable.

LEMON: It's hot.

SCHIAVO: And materials in the plane itself are burning. And they will catch fire. Now they have made some efforts on the newer planes, and the 777 is one of the newest, to make the interiors less flammable, the seats, the floor coverings, the wall coverings. And again to save lives. But the plane itself will burn. Even metal will at certain temperatures.

LEMON: Did you see it tipping up right there? I don't know if you saw -- you caught that part. The plane tipping. And that's what some people may have thought was a cartwheel. If we can roll that back and show that to our -- many people thought the plane kind of cartwheeled. It will take a little bit to come in here and see this. But you see the edge of the runway, right? You can barely -- it's highlighted.


LEMON: There is a -- there's a piper, a jetty, something that goes out. And then that edge of the runway is right there. And then that plane comes down. Very close to that other United Airlines flight. Then here is a tipping.

SCHIAVO: Right there. Yes. You can see it clearly on this video. And that tipping may also have been going off the runway because it did leave the runway or losing more of the gear as the plane was coming apart. But the fortunate thing is it tipped but then it settled back down on the belly of the plane.

Everyone will remember the accident in Sioux City which it came to land. It was a different kind of situation. But that plane did cartwheel. And they were forced -- you know, half the persons lost their lives. But here it tipped for them. It settled back on the belly, giving people the opportunity to get out of that plane. Again that was fortunate that it did not go ahead and cartwheel over.

LEMON: OK. So we have the former inspector general for the U.S. Department of Transportation here. We have exclusive video of this crash landing and new pictures of the interior and the exterior of that doomed airplane into CNN.

We're not going to go far away from the story. Mary -- Miss Schiavo, will you stay with us just for a little bit.

SCHIAVO: Certainly. Absolutely.

LEMON: We have other news we want to talk about.

There is upheaval in Egypt to speak of as well. The United States government staying neutral as the president is ousted by his army. But is that the right position for us to take? We're talking about it next.


LEMON: Back to 214, the crash, in a moment. We want to tell you Egypt is in chaos. And now state television reports the interim government has nominated a vice president and prime minister. The two nominees must still be approved by other political leaders.

Mohamed Morsi supporters, though, showed up in full force rallying outside the building where he is reportedly being held.

This chaos just days after ditching its first democratically elected president, Mohamed Morsi. And President Obama appears neutral amid the political upheaval. The U.S. is staying strategically silent about who should be Egypt's next leader.

The U.S. gives $1.5 billion in aid to Egypt every year. Some politicians say that money should come with specific expectations.

Here is Arizona Senator John McCain.


SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: Egypt, we have to make it very clear that American systems will be directly related to their transition to a civilian government and we don't claim it's going to be easy but -- for us to continue to support coup is a lesson of history that we should have learned a long time ago.

CNN analyst and Democratic strategist Maria Cardona is in Washington. CNN analyst and Republican strategist Ana Navarro joins me in Miami.

Good to see both of you. You OK?




LEMON: Yes. So, Ana, do you agree with Senator McCain?

NAVARRO: I absolutely agree with Senator McCain. I actually agree also with President Obama that we should remain neutral. I think the Egyptians get to choose who they have as a government. But at the same time we as Americans get to choose who we give aid to. It is not an entitlement and it should come with strings attached.

It should come with a string attached of asking it and conditioning it -- making it conditional to good governance, democratic governance, the respect of minorities, women, Christians, peace with Israel. We have a right to that. $1.5 billion is not chump change. And I think Senator McCain is absolutely right.

And -- but the other thing we have to do is stop pussy-footing around what's happening in Egypt. Look, if it looks like a coup, if it swims like a coup, and if it quacks like a coup, it's a coup. It's just that President Obama doesn't want to call it that because it then it does mandate the stop of aid. It's time to suspend that aid until there is good governance in Egypt.

LEMON: Hey, listen, Maria, I mean, most people would say Ana has a point there. I mean, if it sounds like a coup, it's a coup. But do you think President Obama should be doing something differently about Egypt?

CARDONA: Well, look, I do think that we should remain neutral. You know, Ana is right. This is not our decision to make. This is up to the 30 million Egyptians who have gone to the streets to talk about how they want real representative government.

In terms of the aid, though, I think we need to be really careful to say that we want to take away all of the aid from a country where we have a lot of interest in terms of balance in the region. If we take away all of the aid tomorrow, Don, we have no leverage.

I think Ana is right and John McCain is right in saying that we should condition that aid on making sure that Egypt is moving in the right direction and that Egypt's leaders are moving toward essentially that representative government that Morsi was not able to give them. But if we take away that aid tomorrow, that's it. Our influence is gone. We have limited influence in the region. We need to use what we have. And that aid is part of that.

LEMON: I want to switch gears now and talk about something -- talk about Texas Governor Rick Perry. Says he might run for president again.

I mean, Ana, do you think a Perry run for president is a good idea for the Republican Party? And I have 30 seconds left to get both of you in here. Ana?

NAVARRO: Don, there's three reasons he shouldn't run. Number one, he already did it. Blew through a lot of money and didn't win a single primary. Number two, there's a whole new batch of Republicans coming along who the base likes and who are going to make great candidates in 2016. And number three, number three, oops, I -- number three, I can't remember number three.

(LAUGHTER) CARDONA: You know, I was going to say the same joke.

LEMON: That was -- by the way, slow clap. That was very good. Very good, Ana.

CARDONA: I was -- I was going to use that exact same joke. But now that she's used it, I'm going to go with the following.

NAVARRO: Yes, yes, yes.

CARDONA: If Anthony Weiner is now leading the race to be mayor of the New York, I think anything is possible. What I would tell Rick Perry to do is to keep taking his ginkgo biloba and to make sure he's doing his Lumosity exercises in terms of brain training if he's really thinking about doing this.

LEMON: All righty. Thank you, guys. Appreciate it. Cut short because of the breaking news.

CARDONA: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: Thank you very much. I enjoyed seeing you both.

NAVARRO: Thank you.

LEMON: All right. We have been watching this gripping new video that shows the moment Asiana Airlines Flight 214 crashed into the runway in San Francisco. We have a former pilot breaking down what he sees in this video, as well as Mary Schiavo, who knows all about this.


LEMON: Top of the hour, everyone. I'm Don Lemon. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. The passenger jet that crashed and burned on landing yesterday was going way too slow and flying way too low. That's what federal officials say at this stage of the investigation.