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George Zimmerman Murder Trial
Aired July 8, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, was George Zimmerman full of ill will, hatred, and spite?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) punks. These (EXPLETIVE DELETED), they always get away.
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, MURDER DEFENDANT: These (EXPLETIVE DELETED), they always get away.
PINSKY: Will his words, which we can`t even say, seal his fate?
Or have his friends, family, and other supporters helped spare him from a murder conviction?
Zimmerman`s number one defender is here and he is not backing down.
And the behavior bureau tackles this: if your kid wears a hoodie, like Trayvon, are you worried that he or she could be seen as a threat?
Let`s get started.
PINSKY: Good evening, everybody.
My co-host this week is attorney and Sirius XM Radio host, Jenny Hutt.
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Hello.
PINSKY: Hi, Jenny. Hello there.
Coming up, Dr. Bill Lloyd, Dr. Knife, is here with his unique analysis of the forensics in the Zimmerman case, and we`ll discuss the controversial medical examiner who testified last week.
Meantime, today, all about who said what on the audio tapes. George Zimmerman`s defense called a whole number of witnesses. Among them, surprisingly, Trayvon Martin`s own father.
Take a look at this.
RACHEL JEANTEL, WITNESS: I kind of heard Trayvon saying, "Get off, get off."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then, what`d you hear?
JEANTEL: Then, a second later, the phone hung up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you play that for Mr. Martin and Miss. Green?
CHRIS SERINO, WITNESS: Yes, sir. I played all the recordings for him. I inquired if that was, in fact, his son yelling for help.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what was his response?
SERINO: He looked away, and under his breath, as I interpreted it, said no.
TRACY MARTIN, TRAYVON MARTIN`S FATHER: I just kind of shook my breath and said, I can`t tell.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said, I can`t tell.
MARTIN: Something to that effect. But I never said, no, that wasn`t my son`s voice.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know whose voice that is in the background screaming?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, definitely, it`s Georgy.
BERNIE DE LA RIONDA, PROSECUTOR: He used, pardon my language, he used, these (EXPLETIVE DELETED) always get away, do you recall hearing that?
Do you believe when he uttered the words, pardon my language, these (EXPLETIVE DELETED) punks is just an observation?
Are you saying in those campaign things and all of that, he was uttering, pardon my language, that you clearly made out the other language, referring to the person as, (EXPLETIVE DELETED), pardon my language, and a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) punk, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The screams in particular, I could tell, I knew that that was George Zimmerman. I`ve heard a 250-pound man, I mean, sound like a little girl.
PINSKY: And, Jenny, pardon my language, but some of the biggest news of the day happened after the jury had left for the day.
HLN correspondent Jean Casarez joins us with the latest.
Jean, what is that happened after the jurors left?
JEAN CASAREZ, HLN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Well, a judge has made the ruling that the toxicology report of Trayvon Martin will come before the jury. And he did have marijuana in his system, not very much at all, 1.5 nanograms per milliliter of active THC. But the defense is going to be able to have their expert testify, that supports the self-defense claim, reiterate that the medical examiner for the state changed his testimony. They may play the 7-Eleven video to show he was allegedly swaying and utmostly, that the level was enough to cause impairment.
PINSKY: Interesting. Jenny, I don`t know about you, but I would rather come upon a guy smoking a punch of a pot than a guy that had a six pack of beer, much rather.
HUTT: Listen, I`m not a toker, I`m not a smoker, that`s not what I do, but I`ve been around people who smoke pot, Dr. Drew, and they`re not violent.
PINSKY: Of course. Right, exactly. That`s the point.
Jean, thank you very much for that. It would be very interesting to see what they do with it.
Let`s bring in our panel tonight. It is Crystal Wright from conservativeblackchick.com, Michael Skolnik, editor in chief of GlobalGrind.com, he`s also on the board of the Trayvon Martin Foundation; Mike Eiglarsh, whom I want to thank personally for sitting in for me last week, I was out for some medical issues.
And, Mark, thank you. And all you got away with is a new way to tie your tie. I`m sorry, but thank you.
MIKE EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Thank you, (INAUDIBLE). I love your beard - -
PINSKY: Well done, well done.
And finally, social commentator, Ms. Ali. Ms. Ali is the author of "How Not to Eat Pork or Life Without the Pig."
The prosecution put up two witnesses to say the screams on the 911 call were in fact Trayvon Martin. The defense put up seven to say the voice was Zimmerman`s. We`ll get to Trayvon`s dad in a minute, who was one of those seven.
The question now is whether -- Mark, I want to ask you this -- is there something about your strategy when you`re in a courtroom, if you pile on a bunch of witnesses, it means it`s more truthful?
EIGLARSH: No, not necessarily, you can put on 50 witnesses and if one is believable on the other side, the other side wins. In this case, however, neither side has proven beyond a reasonable doubt who`s on that 911 tape. And thus, who wins? The defense. We`ve learned that, Drew.
Who bears the burden? In this case, it`s the prosecution. And as a result, they cannot establish who was on that 911 case.
And that`s not what this case hinges upon, but it certainly hurts them significantly, because they can`t prove it was Trayvon yelling for help.
PINSKY: I remember all the way back from Casey Anthony, not proven, you thought me that.
Jenny, you agree with this?
EIGLARSH: Who? Casey who?
PINSKY: Jenny, you agree?
HUTT: Yes, I do. I do agree. I think the defense had a great day today.
And I just have to say, for the record, I would be a horrible juror on this case, because I still don`t like George Zimmerman. And I know it`s not about liking him, but I still think he did something really wrong. And I still think he should be punished.
But I don`t believe, and so that`s why I would be a bad juror because I don`t believe the prosecution has really proven their case thus far, and I do believe that the defense has done a good job.
PINSKY: I want to get into some stuff about behavior later on in the show, about exactly what Jenny`s talking about, the mess that we`re in with these two people, one dead, one in the courtroom.
The lead investigator told Zimmerman`s defense lawyer that Trayvon Martin`s dad had said that the voice on the 911 tape was not his son`s. That was during his initial investigation. Soon after, Trayvon Martin`s dad took the stand as a defense witness. He insisted that he never said it wasn`t Trayvon`s voice.
Now, Ms. Ali, I want to go to you. If you were sitting on that jury, what would your reaction be to this ambivalence?
SHAHRAZAD ALI, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I feel very badly, first of all, for those two poor mothers who had to sit there and say that that was their child, their son that was screaming on that tape. I remember back when I had a child years and years ago, and I was in the hospital, lying in the bed, and at that time, they kept you in the hospital two, three, four days.
And I heard a baby crying. So I said, oh, my baby is crying! So I got up out of the bed, walked down the hall to the window where all the babies were, and not only could I not tell which baby was crying, I couldn`t even tell which baby was mine. They all looked just alike, you know?
And contrary to public opinion -- so that was hard for me. And I think that those women on the jury, who are also mothers, are going to realize that under a circumstance like that, I think it all kind of blends together.
They could have gave me any baby in that hospital. I wouldn`t have known the difference.
PINSKY: It`s an interesting story. Crystal, go ahead. What do you want to ring in here?
CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVEBLACKCHICK.COM: Yes, I don`t think this is about babies crying. I mean, I appreciate Ms. Ali`s comment.
What this is about is about an avalanche of witnesses today who testified that the voice on the 911 tape is not Trayvon Martin`s. And his father, I think the most damning -- it`s kind of like fighting a snowball fight and the defense comes at you with an avalanche, OK? So, what we saw today is Trayvon Martin`s father giving --
ALI: This is not about snowballs either.
WRIGHT: Excuse me! We saw Trayvon Martin`s father giving contradictory and conflicting statements to the police.
First, he tells the chief investigator, the chief detective, Chris Serino, no, I can`t say that was Trayvon`s voice. Then, all of a sudden he has a memory jolt and he tells the mayor of Sanford, oh, no, that was absolutely, you know, after the interview with the police -- oh, no, that was my son, Trayvon.
So what`s sad about this, I will agree with Ms. Ali, is that a young man has lost his life. But the prosecution`s case is like -- it has more holes in it than a colander you use to strain spaghetti. It`s abysmal.
PINSKY: Jenny, go ahead.
WRIGHT: And I think that`s just -- it`s awful.
HUTT: Listen, I was going to say that I agree with Ms. Ali about the sound of the kid crying, and you go to the beach and hear someone scream "mommy!" every mom on that beach turns on that beach regardless because it could be one of ours.
PINSKY: Stop with mommy. Stop with the mommy stuff.
HUTT: Right, back to Crystal. But what Crystal just said, what you said about the dad and his testimony changing, look, he just found out that his son was killed. So, I don`t know, I kind of give him a little leeway to sort of process it, what he`s listening to --
WRIGHT: No leeway, when your son is killed --
PINSKY: Hang on, hang on.
WRIGHT: But, look, when your son is killed, jenny, you`re going to be so distraught, you`re going to know to Ms. Ali`s point, let`s put that back on you, if you know your son`s scream, and I have nieces and nephews and their mom says, hey, I know my baby`s scream. And frankly, Tracy Martin --
PINSKY: Guys, I`ve got to stop you.
Michael, very patiently, go ahead, take us home.
MICHAEL SKOLNIK, GLOBALGRIND.COM: Yes, I think it`s crazy to say when your son is killed, you`re going to know. You don`t know anything when your son is killed, because none of us have been through that horrible experience.
Tracy Martin in 24 hours had just heard his son was murdered, had to sit there and listen to a tape to hear the gunshot that goes through the heart of his child and is asked a question after sitting in this horrible police station and they won`t arrest the guy who killed his son and say, do you recognize this voice on this tape. And he looks at them and he says, I don`t know. And he`s depressed and he`s saddened and he`s panicked.
EIGLARSH: Well, that`s not what he said.
SKOLNIK: You got to give him the benefit of the doubt. I`m sure the jury certainly has compassion for him.
PINSKY: Yes. Mark, finish up.
SKOLNIK: Exactly what he said. Detective Serino said he said no.
EIGLARSH: Michael, well, yes, that is the difference. And I don`t know what he really said, but Serino said he said no. And unfortunately, for him, the jurors heard no from Serino. It hurts the state`s case.
PINSKY: All right.
PINSKY: Here we go. Got to go to break.
PINSKY: Some of the really interesting testimony we had today from a guy who had been in battle when people have screams for help and he was a really interesting witness, talking about how the voice changed and how he was accustomed to hearing those type of changes in the voice. None of us who are accustomed to hearing that.
Coming up, the behavior bureau tackles this: should your child, if they wear a hoodie like Trayvon, what would it mean to them in terms of how people view that child?
And next, George Zimmerman`s chief defender back. He is not -- oh, there he is. He is not backing down. He`s here with us after this.
PINSKY: Welcome back.
My co-host, Jenny Hut.
We are joined by Frank Taaffe. He is George Zimmerman`s friend and an unapologetic supporter. His controversial comments on our show last week got a tremendous reaction. So I want to play a little bit of that for you. Take a look.
FRANK TAAFFE, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN`S FRIEND: We had seven burglaries in eleven months, and all of them were perpetrated by young black males. If our homes had been burglarized by Asian rainbow handicap people. If you plant corn, you get corn.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you saying that all black males are going to rob you?
TAAFFE: I`m not lumping all black males.
HUTT: All the black males that go to your neighborhood might be ones that are going to rob you.
TAAFFE: Don`t take my words out of context.
EIGLARSH: Samantha --
TAAFFE: Don`t take my words out of context.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK!
TAAFFE: I didn`t say -- I didn`t say all!
Jeantel was very good for the defense. She created so much doubt in that jury`s mind, she was precious. Those are words I can use. She was just precious for the defense.
EIGLARSH: Are you familiar with the character, "Precious." do you know who that is? Did you see the movie?
TAAFFE: I don`t recall.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A lot of people have made that comparison. I think it`s mean-spirited. I think it`s ignorant. And I think it`s cruel. That really --
TAAFFE: That`s retarded, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wow, you`re helping your case. Bravo.
TAAFFE: He had every right to carry that gun. Ag bat is a forcible felony, just like rape. Does a woman who`s being raped have to be penetrated before it`s justified to kill her rapist? Think about that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does not have the same kind of intellectual or emotional process --
TAAFFE: Was he your patient?
PINSKY: Back with us, Crystal Wright, Michael Skolnick, Ms. Ali Shahrazad, and joining us, George Zimmerman`s friend, Frank Taaffe.
Oh, Frank, speaking of patient. I was a patient last week, and while laying there sick, the name Frank Taaffe came up a thousand times. There`s a Twitter just came for you right now. I`m going to put it up on the screen for you, just to give a sense of what I was dealing with at home wondering what happened to my program.
Here we go. This is from Patricia Crosby. "Doctor, let me know when Taaffe is off, I will tune back in. I`d rather chew glass then listen to him."
So, thank you, Frank. Thank your for being a little bit of a polemic lightning bolt here. It`s good times. I appreciate you being back.
TAAFFE: My pleasure. It`s good to see you, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: You`re living on HLN right now, but, Frank, I`m going to ask you to sit tight, because I noticed that as soon as you came up on our panel -- yes, it`s awesome, isn`t it? My panel started quivering.
Ms. Ali, you had something you wanted to say right away?
ALI: Yes, I`m glad we have him on here. I`m glad we have Frank on here. We need people like frank on television so that a lot of my people can see that they`re not paranoid unjustifiably. This type of white man does exist.
And it doesn`t matter if the last seven burglaries were done by black males. The last 2,000 lynchings were done by white males, but y`all wouldn`t want me to say that all white men are lynchers.
WRIGHT: But you said that, Ms. Ali. You said that last week when I was on the show, that all -- you compared, I think to the Zimmerman trial - -
ALI: Who is that talking? Is that -- wait a minute!
PINSKY: Hold on. I want y`all to be aware of something. Everybody, I have the ability to turn your mics off. So if you guys get out of hand, I will just, one by one, shut your mics off until you guys behave yourselves, OK? Don`t talk over each other.
Michael is being such a good boy today, I`m going to go to Michael.
Hang on, Frank. Michael, go ahead.
SKOLNIK: That`s very kind of you. I would say this about my good friend, Frank Taaffe. You are who surround yourself with. And if Frank Taaffe is such a good friend to George Zimmerman, we have to wonder what kind of a person George Zimmerman is.
And if Frank Taaffe is going to come on television every night and make insensitive racist and insensitive comments, we have to wonder what kind of person George Zimmerman is.
PINSKY: Frank, go.
TAAFFE: -- listen, this is all prefaced. Let me share this with you. This entire case was prefaced over the fact that there was no probable cause.
And, Mark, you can get in here and talk about probable cause anytime you want. I`ll let you have it.
But here`s the deal. When George is taken down and Bill Lee said there was no probable cause, they took it to the state attorney. And that`s where the rubber meets the road. Norman Wolfinger with 27-years- plus experience said there was no probable cause.
And it wasn`t until Mr. Benjamin Crump wrote a letter to the Department of Justice, seeking more information, it wasn`t until Angela Corey was assigned to this, then all of a sudden, my friend, George, who`s been maliciously prosecuted, and y`all need to jump on the Taaffe train, because the other train is leaving town. Get on board now.
ALI: I want to say something.
WRIGHT: Excuse me! No, I`m going to say something. Can I say something, please? I`ve been waiting patiently.
PINSKY: Yes, Crystal, go, please?
WRIGHT: Frank, I agree with you --
WRIGHT: Frank, Frank, Frank -- can I talk, please?
WRIGHT: Frank, I agree with you. The fact that you have a type of person doing burglaries in a neighborhood and they all happen to be black suspects is something that the police talk about all the time.
The first question I get asked or my neighbors get asked when we -- file a police report and call 911, what does the suspect look like. And the fact is, Ms. Ali, Frank didn`t say all black men are going around killing. He talked about --
ALI: Yes, he did.
TAAFFE: No, I didn`t.
WRIGHT: -- that he had a preponderance of black men in the neighborhood. And the fact is, Ms. Ali -- excuse me, Ms. Ali. More blacks are killing -- more blacks are killing and are in prison than any other race.
So I`m sorry you don`t like that. We need to be talking about the root problem of what`s causing this. And nobody`s talking about what happened in Chicago last week -- 62 --
WRIGHT: Sixty-two -- excuse me -- 62 people were killed in Chicago last week from Wednesday to Sunday. Where`s your outrage, Ms. Ali? Most of them are black.
SKOLNIK: That`s not true.
WRIGHT: Two hundred murders.
SKOLNIK: That`s not true.
WRIGHT: It`s very true.
PINSKY: Crystal, hang on. Let`s go to Ms. Ali. Ms. Ali and then, Michael. Ms. Ali, go ahead.
WRIGHT: Where`s the outrage? I don`t see any outrage from you guys on that.
ALI: I have talked about this before, but this statement is specifically for conservativeoreochick.com.
I have already been talking about the condition of black men and what has been happening in our communities.
ALI: It`s sisters like you that come out here and pretend to be white, so I think it will get you points with them.
WRIGHT: I am not your sister. I will never be your sister. Don`t ever call me your sister.
TAAFFE: Tell it like it is, Ms. Ali.
WRIGHT: And, Dr. Drew, I can`t believe you`re going to let her say -- call me an Oreo and that --
ALI: She`s telling it like --
PINSKY: How would you like me to correct that, crystal? Is there something we need to do to make that OK?
WRIGHT: I think you need to stop it. It`s unacceptable behavior.
PINSKY: I agree with you.
WRIGHT: It`s like me calling you a bad word.
PINSKY: I absolutely agree with you. And I apologize, Ms. Ali -- Frank.
SKOLNIK: But Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Go ahead.
SKOLNIK: Dr. Drew, can we get back to the fact --
PINSKY: Frank, Frank, go.
TAAFFE: Let`s talk about probable cause in this state. It`s not -- look, the burden of proof is on the state. And until they disprove self- defense, beyond a reasonable doubt, the jury must conclude that George Zimmerman acted in self-defense.
PINSKY: OK, Frank --
TAAFFE: -- the charge of murder two or even a lesser charge of manslaughter.
PINSKY: Frank, here`s the deal. You`re being very rational and you`re talking about the courtroom. But clearly this case, and it`s the subtext, and no one`s really talking about it, it spills into so many areas.
TAAFFE: We can go off --
PINSKY: I understand that.
TAAFFE: I know, you want to talk about hoodies --
PINSKY: Listen, I`m going to. I`m going to!
TAAFFE: You want to talk about hoodies and Skittles?
PINSKY: No, I`m going to talk about --
ALI: Why don`t you cut his mic off?
PINSKY: I will, trust me. Here`s the deal. We`re going to go to break. I want to sincerely is apologize if crystal was upset with the words that were passed back and forth.
TAAFFE: I was upset.
PINSKY: Frank, they were not directed a at you. Y`all place nice in the sand box here. We`ll reconvene this panel in a second. All right?
Are we all good? Crystal, are you whole? That`s my question.
WRIGHT: I`m going to go eat a Oreo cookie, how about that?
PINSKY: OK, fair enough. All right. Back more with Frank Taaffe.
TAAFFE: I`m going to have some animal crackers.
ALI: I`m not apologizing.
WRIGHT: All right.
PINSKY: Hang on, bad boys.
Later, our own, Dr. Bill Lloyd will sound off on what Trayvon Martin`s pot use perhaps meant for this case. Oh, and there`s -- I don`t know what that is. We`ll find out when he talks to us later on.
Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAAFFE: I`ve accepted the charges against my friend, George, and we`re going to move forward with this, with great anticipation of George being exonerated of all these charges.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hut, and our panel.
We`ve been speaking, of course, about George Zimmerman and the Zimmerman trial. We`re speaking with his former neighbor, and vocal defender, Frank Taaffe.
And for everybody, we really know -- I want to again emphasize, let`s play nice here. By throwing around language that is abusive and demeaning, we`re not going to advance this argument. We`re going to make things worse.
I think all of us want to look at these undertones that this trial has created and try to do something better, as opposed to just inflaming passions that are simmering as a result of all of this.
Let me start now with Frank.
And, Jenny, I`ll follow with you, since you`re our attorney on the panel.
Frank, do you think your friend will be acquitted? Do you still think that?
TAAFFE: One hundred percent. I said it since day one. I`ve been out there. This has been -- Dr. Drew, like I said, let`s preface this entire case.
It went to the state attorney. He said there was no P.C., probable cause. You need probable cause. And it wouldn`t have been nothing for Mr. Wolfinger to charge George. Nothing. But there was nothing.
The evidence -- let`s remember, the evidence, the testimony of the witnesses, and George`s statements were all consistent with the self- defense theory, all of it. That`s why he was not charged until Mr. Crump and the scheme team got together and shot a letter off to the Department of Justice and then, henceforth, we have a special prosecutor, and now, we`re here. We`re here.
PINSKY: OK. Jenny, go ahead.
HUTT: Yes, I will indeed watch my language when talking to Frank. But -- and, Dr. Drew, I have to say, I agree with you 100 percent, my biggest issue with you, frank, is that you seem to inflame rather than go to a place of healing. I understand you want to defend your friend, but your manner and your delivery and often your word choice is somewhat suspect to someone like me.
TAAFFE: Listen, you`re not -- don`t judge me.
HUTT: Hold on a minute.
TAAFFE: Don`t judge me. You`re not my judge.
HUTT: Excuse me? Of course, I`m listening to --
TAAFFE: You`re not going to make this forum to judge me. You speak, I speak, let`s go forward. Be nice in the sand box. The doctor just said it.
HUTT: I think I am playing nice in the sandbox.
PINSKY: I think you are too, and I think you made your point that his attitude --
TAAFFE: Don`t judge --
PINSKY: We`re not judging, she`s just expressing a fact, which is that you have a way about that you inflames people. OK.
Ms. Ali, go ahead.
TAAFFE: OK, all right.
ALI: Yes, what I was going to say is that at this point, the prosecution and the defense seem like they`re on the same team, but the point is that one of the rules of an NRA is that when a person has a license, permit to carry, that night when Zimmerman called 911 and when he was talking to them, he was talking to the police.
Well, the rule is that when you have a permit to carry and you talk to the police, you are first supposed to identify yourself as having a permit and tell them that you are armed. And had Zimmerman told them he was armed, that would have been all 180 seconds, three minutes, the police would have been there. Now, that`s proof --
TAAFFE: I don`t know what state you live in. Not here.
ALI: Wait a minute, that`s proof that he had ill intent, because he didn`t tell the police that he had a gun on him.
PINSKY: Michael, is that true?
TAAFFE: He didn`t have to, Ms. Ali.
ALI: He gave him his address. He gave his address.
TAAFFE: Hang on. Frank says no. Michael, you say yes?
PINSKY: Oh, we`ve lost Michael, I think.
SKOLNIK: He`s certainly not going to tell the police, and the first time he encounters someone, the first time he encountered someone, he doesn`t tell them he`s part of the neighborhood watch.
But I do want to say something, Dr. Drew, that`s important. Because Crystal brought up numerous times that what are we doing with black-on- black violence. I would certainly invite my friend Crystal Wright to walk with me on the south side of Chicago with the Cure Violence Program, or Southeast Jamaica Queens with I love My Life or Brunswick, Brooklyn, with Man Up, or Los Angeles with Homebody Industries.
My boss Russell Simmons and I have funded and supported so many programs, nonviolence programs around this country to address black-on- black violence.
SKOLNIK: So we can do both.
PINSKY: Good. Yes.
SKOLNIK: We can address black-on-black violence and we can also address profiling of young, black men.
PINSKY: Got it. Crystal, this makes this even more confusing -- hang on, hang on.
Crystal, this isn`t white-on-black violence, this is -- this is brown -- you know what I mean? It`s more -- it`s less clear than that, isn`t it? This is race issue which comes up as very complicated.
WRIGHT: Right, right. It`s not complicated, what bothers me, and you know I`ve said --
WRIGHT: Black -- we don`t -- the media doesn`t seem to care when Black -- if George Zimmerman was black, and he killed Trayvon Martin, none of us would be sitting here talking about this trial. That`s what troubles me. But back to the case, I think that there`s a lot of reasonable doubt - -
WRIGHT: Excuse me. I would like to be able to finish one thought tonight, because everybody else has got to finish their thought.
PINSKY: Let`s do it.
WRIGHT: There`s so much reasonable doubt flying over this case that I think George Zimmerman was wrong to get out of his car and pursue. I said this last week. A neighborhood watch watches and calls the police. I think Trayvon Martin then got agitated. Trayvon whipped toward George Zimmerman, confronted him, and sadly, we have a young man dead and another man who`s going to be found not guilty.
TAAFFE: That hasn`t been proven. That has not been proven.
WRIGHT: As far as Frank goes, Frank is no more controversial -- Miss Ali is far more controversial than Frank.
PINSKY: Who is? Who is more controversial? Miss Ali is more controversial?
WRIGHT: Miss Ali is -- and I really resent all this kind of characterization of Frank, that he`s the bad guy and Miss Ali is somehow good.
WRIGHT: She`s just as inflammatory as Frank. But Frank is actually - - he`s not a bad guy. Frank, you`re not a bad guy. You`re speaking --
PINSKY: Michael, you go ahead and then Frank can take --
MICHAEL SKOLNIK, EDITOR, GLOBALGRIND.COM: Yes, Crystal, Crystal, you know what, you`re 100 percent right --
WRIGHT: You wouldn`t be talking about this, Michael. You wouldn`t be talking about this.
SKOLNIK: He`d be arrested that night, and you know it.
SKOLNIK: Yes, because he would be arrested in 24 hours.
PINSKY: I`m running out of time, guys. We`re against the clock. Frank, take us home. I want to thank you for being here. Finish it up.
TAAFFE: Hey, man, let`s just keep it real here. It was all about probable cause. There was no probable cause based on Mr. Wolfinger`s assessment. Remember, the facts and the evidence and also the testimony of the witnesses led that he wasn`t going to be arrested. That`s it. You know, suck on that, man. That`s all there is too it.
PINSKY: Frank, that`s what Jenny was talking about, by the way, my friend.
PINSKY: That`s exactly what she was talking about. Michael, Crystal, I want to thank you personally for being here, keeping your cool, and putting up with some difficult language and interaction. I really want to thank you. And Frank, of course, thank you for coming.
I`ll tell you what I`m going to do, Crystal brought up a really interesting point here. She was talking about the way that the complexities of this case. I`m bringing the behavior bureau in and we are going to talk about something not as complicated as you think. It`s called the fundamental attribution era. We`re going to look at hoodies, people wearing them, how we respond to them and interpret people`s constitutional makeup based on their behavior and their dress.
And later, Bill Lloyd, he`s performed hundreds of autopsies. What does he think about Dr. Bow`s controversial testimony today? There he is. And then, of course, Dr. Knife will be here to talk about it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This guy looks like he`s up to no good or he`s on drugs or something. It`s raining and he`s just walking around looking about.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Is this guy -- is he white, black, or Hispanic?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He looks black.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you see what he was wearing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. A dark hoodie, like a gray hoodie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our son was not committing any crimes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our son is your son!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you`ve got to stand up for justice and stand up for what`s right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is not about a Black and White thing. This is about a right and a wrong thing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice for Trayvon.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A Black kid walking down the street, walking home with just a hoodie on, in the rain, makes him suspicious. It doesn`t make any sense.
PINSKY: Time for the behavior bureau. Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Millions of people have and wear hoodies. So, why was one kid, Trayvon Martin, perceived as a threat? What about clothing, perhaps, or behavior makes us conclude certain things in certain circumstances?
Back with us, clinical and forensic psychologist, Cheryl Arutt, criminal investigator, Danine Manette, author of "Ultimate Betrayal," clinical neuroscientist, Michelle Ward, host of "Stalked" on Investigation Discovery, and welcoming psychologist, Brenda Wade, author of "Power Choices."
Michelle, I`m going to start with you. People look at clothing and they make an attribution to that person based on who they are in that circumstance and they`re wearing, don`t they? Automatically.
MICHELLE WARD, PH.D., HOST, STALKED: Yes. And I think what we were talking about earlier is the fundament attribution bias, which is kind of an interesting social psychology phenomenon. What it means is, simply, when we`re looking at somebodies else`s behavior, we are more likely to overestimate their personality influencing it.
PINSKY: All right, stop. Cheryl, that`s right. Say it again, because that -- that`s I think what`s at the core of how we`re all in this mess. Both Zimmerman and Trayvon made assessments of one another that were sort of excessive based on their behavior, would you agree?
WARD: Well, Right. So, it`s like they`re looking at this guy with a hoodie, like, oh, he must be trouble. And then the flip side of that is we tend to judge our own behavior based on external factors. And the classic example that I think will make it easy for the viewers to understand is test taking.
If you fail a test, I might say, well, you didn`t study or you`re not very smart. But if I fail that same test, it`s because the test wasn`t fair. So, you`re more likely to give yourself an external excuse. So, maybe Trayvon is wearing the hoodie, an African-American kid wearing a hoodie, trouble. But if I were wearing the hoodie, well, it`s raining and I needed to wear it because of external factors.
PINSKY: OK. Right. And I learned something about you today, Cheryl, as it pertains to test taking. But Jenny, I see you scrunching your forehead, like you can`t quite get this, can you?
JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: Yes. Well, I can`t crunch that much, because I do have Botox. But Dr. Drew, respectfully, I have to say, in my view of the case, I disagree in terms of the overestimation. I do believe that Trayvon was afraid of George Zimmerman when he was being soft.
PINSKY: Right. That`s an attribution error. Yes. I understand that. He was not likely to hurt that kid, but he made an assessment and it was not unreasonable. Brenda Wade, this is your first appearance on our panel here. Do you understand what I`m getting at here? How people --
BRENDA WADE, AUTHOR, "POWER CHOICES": I absolutely do.
PINSKY: Please go right ahead.
WADE: Thank you, Dr. Drew. And the thing that troubles me, and I spend a lot of my time working with moms who`ve lost children to violence, and the thing that all the moms say is, "why is it my child can`t be seen for their true selves?" And what we`re talking about is, if your child looks a certain way, your child will immediately -- now, the word we use is projection.
He`ll have all this projection. If Trayvon had been, as my colleague just said, a blond woman, he`d still be alive. We know that as sad as it is that we are in the year 2013, still talking about race and adding all these collisions. This is still one of the deepest wounds in America, and we need to heal it.
PINSKY: You`re so right. And listen, what you just said gave me chills about the mourning mothers wanting the people to know who their child actually was, not who they assume them to be. Now, I`m going to take another look at a hoodie. Here`s a signature look from our Facebook CEO, Mark Zuckerberg.
He`s a billionaire, wore one the day Facebook became a publicly traded company. Critics said wardrobe is disrespectful and showed immaturity. Cheryl, and yet, he`s just -- it`s just a piece of clothing.
CHERYL ARUTT, PH.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it`s just a piece of clothing, but when people are under stress, when they feel threatened, we make snap decisions. We make -- we go into fight or flight --
PINSKY: Inaccurate, inaccurate snap decisions.
ARUTT: Exactly. That`s the really important thing. We are more likely to make errors and we`re more likely to make errors in the direction of seeing threat when threat isn`t there. And there are people who, sadly, have to teach their children to take special extra steps, because they are more likely to be victimized, because people are more likely to stereotype them.
PINSKY: And Danine, that is sad and that is at the core of this thing, isn`t it?
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Yes. And as far as the Mark Zuckerberg thing, I think that that`s silly. I think that`s just people that had a problem with the hoodie, because if he had come out with it on his head and he looked like a character from the movie "Scream," then I could see the problem. But this is just basically a sweat jacket that`s zipped up.
But, the correlation between behavior and clothing goes way before the Zimmerman case. I mean, that`s why you can`t get into certain bars or restaurants with jeans on, because sometimes, behavior is equated with what people have on. And they want you to present yourself a certain way. When people are running around in occupy protests and vandalizing the city, they have on hoodies, too.
I think it`s more than a Black/White thing. I think that right now, hoodies, just like the trench coats after columbine, is something that people are focused on, because that`s where the culture is.
PINSKY: And the Boston bombers wore hoodies. Jenny, now, I want to go back to you. Our panel, I thought, presented that pretty clearly. You get it now?
HUTT: No, no, I get it. I was just saying that in Trayvon`s case, I didn`t think that he overestimated the danger he might be in with George Zimmerman. But let me just say, it`s a shame, the whole hoodie situation and what has happened, because, frankly, kids shouldn`t be Getting killed because they`re wearing hoodies. And hoodies are just, they`re cozy and comfortable. why can`t --
PINSKY: Forget the hoodie. Forget the hoodie. We all need to check how we, as Cheryl said, under stress, make snap decisions about other people that are likely to be inaccurate. Likely. That`s why the 911 operator is telling somebody to stand down. You`re under stress, you`re not going to assess this. You`re not a professional, something`s going to go bad, and it did. Thank you, panel.
Next up, medical examiner, Bill Lloyd, Dr. Bill Lloyd is here. He will ask -- he`ll talk about the pot found in Trayvon Martin`s system. I got a little to say about that. And the fact that the jury is actually going to hear that. OK. I see you. I see you with a PVC pipe. I don`t know what that means, but we`ll find out, after the beak. Ooh! Ouch!
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," our bold question tonight for our in-studio jury and you guys at home, was George Zimmerman screaming in that 911 call?
RYAN SMITH, HLN ANCHOR: That`s right. They`ll have a verdict at the end of the show. Will it be yes, will it be no? We`ve got our in-studio jury, our six women in the front, just like the Zimmerman trial. This is one of the biggest issues in this case.
POLITAN: It could make the difference between murder or self-defense. Top of the hour, "HLN After Dark."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do not have any recall. I do not have any memory of the day of autopsy. Let me explain to you --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just one second, please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The objection is he`s not allowed to answer the question.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Again, stop.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: May I ask a question, your honor?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t answer your first question. I do not remember anything. Zero.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the day of autopsy. I depend on --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We understand, sir. Please stop speaking so Mr. West can ask the next question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
PINSKY: I`ve never felt closer to the judge in this case than just now. The testimony of the man who conducted the autopsy on Trayvon Martin raised more than a few eyebrows. In fact, back with Jenny Hutt. Jenny, thank you for being patient with us all day and today. Back with us, Mark Eiglarsh and Michelle Ward.
Joining us, Areva Martin and pathologist, Dr. Bill Lloyd, who himself has conducted thousands of autopsies. Dr. Lloyd, Dr. Bow testified that Trayvon Martin died of an intermediate, I think they mean intermediate range gunshot wound. Tell us what that mean and does it support Zimmerman`s story?
DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST: Yes, basically, any time you pull the trigger on the gun, there`ll be a controlled explosion within the chamber of that gun. So, let`s use this piece of PVC piping as the barrel of the gun. And in addition to the bullet leaving out the end, at the muzzle end, there will be heat. There`ll be explosive gases, unexpended gun powder and other debris that leave the barrel.
Now, if that barrel is up close to the body and pressing hard against the body, that close contact will create a very small wound to match the size of the bullet. There`ll be a ring of burns and imprints right where the gun barrel was resting against it. With near contact, it`s a little farther away, it may barely be touching the skin.
But in this case, with Trayvon Martin, the medical examiner determined that the gun was inches away, perhaps as far as 18 inches away, creating an irregularly shaped wound, speckled with lots of debris, because there was room for all of those materials to escape the barrel and to land on the skin, even though Trayvon was wearing that hoodie.
PINSKY: And so, Areva, my question to you is, does that support Zimmerman`s sort of defense and how did that medical examiner do on the stand, in your opinion?
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: Well, we know the medical examiner had some issues, Dr. Drew, with respect to his testimony, because he changed his testimony. He said it didn`t matter if he changed it a couple of weeks earlier or he could change it by the hour. But I think what`s important about that testimony is, it`s inconsistent with the story we`re being told about what George Zimmerman said happened.
He says Trayvon Martin is on top of him, holding his nose at one point, covering his mouth, and then going for the gun, and then that`s when the shot is fired, which would suggests that it would be a closer range shot than what was just explained to us by the expert that said it was an intermediate range.
And the medical examiner said as many as 18 inches. That tends to support the case that the prosecution and the state is making in this case and I think it`s a very important point for the state and it undermines the issue -- or undermines the point of self-defense that we`ve been hearing from the George Zimmerman team.
PINSKY: Mark, do you agree?
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: Not at all? I mean, I love Areva, but I don`t know what trial she`s watching.
MARTIN: Same one you`re watching, Mark.
EIGLARSH: The physical evidence from the medical examiner is completely consistent with what Zimmerman`s alleging. I don`t think even the prosecutor is going to argue what Areva just said. It`s that obvious that it`s consistent. I think she`s going to argue that he followed him and thus was the aggressor and thus loses self-defense protection.
I don`t think they`re going to argue that the physical evidence is inconsistent with what Zimmerman`s alleging.
MARTIN: I totally disagree with you, Mark. We`ve been hearing all along from all of these witnesses about this struggle that`s happening. And the gunshot wound is just not consistent with the struggle that we`re being told by the defense.
PINSKY: We`re going to be --
EIGLARSH: We can agree to disagree on that point.
PINSKY: We got to take a break. We`ll be right back. Jenny, I`ll go to you after the break.
PINSKY: Jenny, I said I would go right to you. Let`s do it.
HUTT: So, I think that Mark will agree with me, regardless of what you feel the medical examiner`s testimony did or did not do, I think we have reasonable doubt here. And because of that, the prosecution has failed to adequately prove their case. And I don`t believe Zimmerman`s going to get acquitted -- I believe he`s going to get acquitted. And I think that`s really all this boils down to is reasonable doubt now.
PINSKY: Now, Dr. Lloyd --
MARTIN: I respectfully disagree with you, Jenny. I think everyone`s rushing to judgment and they`ve already acquitted George Zimmerman and the trial isn`t even over. I just think we have to be more patient. We know the trial --
EIGLARSH: Well, the prosecution rested --
MARTIN: -- many twists and turns, and I don`t think that it`s clear at all that there`s going to be an acquittal in this case.
PINSKY: Dr. Lloyd, earlier in the show, I was saying, you and I would talk about the cannabis that the jury is going to hear about. I don`t think it makes a hill of beans difference, at all, in my opinion, except to justify or at least corroborate what George was saying about the kid seeming intoxicated.
I`ve said on this show tonight, I`d much rather run into a guy in an alley way high on pot, in fact, the higher the better, than somebody on a couple six packs of beer.
LLOYD: All right. I`ve got a copy of the official drug report here. It shows that there were two different levels of marijuana drugs that were measured in Trayvon Martin. The active drug, the THC, that was 1.5. That`s a very low number.
PINSKY: That`s low.
LLOYD: It tells you he hadn`t been puffing for about three hours, at least. The metabolized THC was about 5, which, again, tells you that his body was already -- his liver was already metabolizing the active drug. Chronic potheads, they`ve got an active level of around 50. So --
PINSKY: Yes, that`s low.
LLOYD: I think we can take that issue off the table, but for the sake of completeness, I think all the facts have to be there. Let me say one quick thing about my brother pathologist testifying, the medical examiner. Again and again, he said, I don`t know, I don`t remember. I`m not going to speculate and give you that information out of my memory, go back to the report, go back to the report, go back to the report.
When the autopsy was performed, nobody knew who Trayvon Martin was. He was an unknown. It was not a high-profile case. The autopsy was performed, and then weeks later, public attention came to this case.
PINSKY: Got it.
LLOYD: And a good pathologist does the autopsy same way every time.
PINSKY: Exactly. Michelle, real quick, before we go. What if Zimmerman had been concussed during this fight? Does that make any difference to you?
WARD: It really doesn`t, because for me, what boils down to is, I have a hard time, and I understand legally, as trial consultant, I recognize what`s going on here, but I still have a problem with the fact that Zimmerman followed this guy. I felt like Trayvon was defending himself, but I wanted to bring up another point.
PINSKY: Real quick.
WARD: Super emotional here on your show today and that`s exactly what`s going to happen in this deliberation room. This is highly charged case. More so than the others we`ve been following.
PINSKY: Oh, interesting. That`s -- because you`re a jury consultant. So, you know what`s going to happen when they close that door. Thank you, panel. "Last Call" is next.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After that, you bought him suits?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Do you recall how much approximately money --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: About $1,700.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And then, that includes ties and shirts and all that other stuff you were --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir, they were on sale.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Was that a Joseph Banks? Do you want to plug wherever you bought it? No, I`m -- did you get a good deal on those, I guess (ph), is what you`re saying?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
PINSKY: That was from earlier today. The prosecutor was trying to establish bias by asking George Zimmerman`s friend about the amount of money he had given Zimmerman. Jenny, another joke in the courtroom. Did this one work out?
HUTT: Yes. I mean, if the courtroom was laughing, then it worked. I think that`s a sign of a joke that works is if people laugh. I mean, I don`t think there`s much levity in this case. So --
PINSKY: No, that`s right. Thank you for being here, my dear. I appreciate it. We`ll see you all next time. "HLN After Dark" begins right now.