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George Zimmerman Murder Trial
Aired July 9, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, order in the court.
JENNY HUTT, RADIO HOST: My biggest issue with you, Frank, is that you seem to inflame rather than go to a place of healing. Often your word choice is somewhat suspect to someone like me.
FRANK TAAFFE, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN`S FRIEND: Listen, you`re not -- don`t judge me. Hey, you don`t judge me.
HUTT: Hold on a minute. I --
PINSKY: What is it about the George Zimmerman trial that makes spirited conversation go bad?
My guests are back for a more civil round two.
CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVEBLACKCHICK.COM: Excuse me, Ms. Ali.
PINSKY: And did this forensic expert seal the deal for the defense?
DR. VINCENT DI MAIO, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: This is consistent with Mr. Zimmerman`s account that he -- that Mr. Martin was over him, leaning forward at the time of the shot.
PINSKY: Does our own forensic expert agree?
Does it support Zimmerman`s story?
I will ask Dr. Bill Lloyd.
Let`s get started.
PINSKY: Good evening.
I am joined by my co-host, Sirius XM Radio host and attorney, Jenny Hutt.
Jenny, good evening.
Coming up, George Zimmerman`s neighbor Frank Taaffe, the famous Frank Taaffe yet again on our show. But this time on the behavior bureau. We`re going to have at him a bit and dissect him.
Now, late word today is the defense is almost done. Did Zimmerman`s attorneys cast reasonable doubt about the second degree murder charge? Watch.
RACHEL JEANTEL, TRAYVON MARTIN`S FRIEND: And then he I say, "Trayvon." And then he say, "Why are you following me for?" And I heard a hard breath man come say, "What you doing around here?"
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was -- and I really don`t like to use this type of terminology --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Words that we`re not going to use.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sure. Soft. Just physically soft.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe Trayvon Martin was alive for one to 10 minutes after he was shot.
DI MAIO: In all probability, nothing is 100 percent, he`s going to be dead within one to three minutes after being shot. If I right now reached across and put my hand through your chest, grabbed your heart and ripped it out, you could stand there and talk to me for 10 to 15 seconds or walk over to me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even though my heart is gone, I would still feel some pain or would I not?
DI MAIO: Oh, well, yes. You`ll still feel pain.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you aware he wasn`t just armed with a firearm but that he was also armed with a flash light.
DI MAIO: I thought it was one of these steel heavy things. I wouldn`t consider it a really dangerous weapon.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was my neighbor. We spoke on a friendly basis. We had no problems with one another.
MARK O`MARA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Whose voice do you believe that was in the background screaming for help?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Based on the fact that I`d only heard George`s voice and it`s a light male voice, I would say that it was his.
PINSKY: HLN legal correspondent Jean Casarez joins us now.
Jean, compared to the Jodi Arias case, this has moved rather quickly. What is the latest?
JEAN CASAREZ, HLN LEGAL CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): You better believe it`s moved rather quickly. Well, the latest is something that I think is a little unexpected, because we are approaching the closing arguments, the ends of the defense case, a rebuttal case for the prosecution.
But now the defense is saying that they want to admit pictures and text messages before this jury from Trayvon Martin`s phone. You know, Dr. Drew, this case is about a gun and it`s about fighting.
So, the defense believes it is relevant to show the jury that about eight days before Trayvon Martin came to Sanford, Florida, that there are text messages and pictures showing he was attempting to acquire a gun. And also, there are text messages describing a fight on his cell phone. And a Facebook post from his half brother asking Trayvon when he was going to teach him to fight.
Now, the prosecutor is saying, wait a minute. This is not relevant. And furthermore, George Zimmerman didn`t know Trayvon Martin, so you can`t have specific acts of fighting.
But what the defense is going to try to show a reputation for fighting. And that according to the case law can possibly come in.
PINSKY: Jean, thank you very much.
On our panel tonight: Jeff Johnson, host and managing editor of the Intersection on Bliss FM: Crystal Wright from conservativeblackchick.com; Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at speaktomark.com, who now has exceptional tie knots because of the week he spent on our show; and social commentator Shahrazad Ali. She is the author of "How Not to Eat Pork, or Life Without the Pig."
Now, everybody, and this is not just for my panel before me, but for everybody on our program, I feel like I`ve got a lay down a couple of little ground rules. Here`s why I`ve got to do that. I want you to look at this video from last night, a spirited conversation. And it went south. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
WRIGHT: You compared --
SHAHRAZAD ALI, AUTHOR: Well. Wait a minute. Who is that talking?
WRIGHT: I am not your sister. I will never be your sister. Don`t ever call me your sister.
TAAFFE: Tell it like it is, Ms. Ali.
HUTT: Often your word choice is somewhat suspect to someone like me.
TAAFFE: Listen, you`re not -- don`t judge me. Hey, you don`t judge me.
HUTT: Hold on a minute. I --
TAAFFE: You`re not my judge.
HUTT: Excuse me?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I interrupted you. Would you finish?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, that`s fine. Let me know if I ever interrupt you. I`ll apologize. I also told the court reporter I would be slow. If you could do the same thing, she has to get everything down.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
PINSKY: So there`s -- the courtroom gives us a model of how to proceed. When you all were listening to the panel talking, could you make out what anybody was saying?
Thank you. Thank you. I rest my case, judge.
ALI: I could.
PINSKY: I could hear your voice ringing through there a bit too. But I want to hear you with great clarity. I want to hear everything you have to say.
I know Crystal does, especially. And, Crystal, apologies. I promise you I got your back tonight.
Here`s what I want from you all. No interrupting. Disagreeing is fine. No personal attacks. Advance the conversation. Speak when your name is called.
Everybody agree? Show of hands? We`re all in this?
Just me and Jenny, I guess. All right.
Ms. Ali, I want to go to you first. If Zimmerman were to take the stand --
ALI: Do you have my back?
PINSKY: I`ve got your back, too, my dear. I do. I do.
PINSKY: If somebody were to say something -- if somebody were to say something nasty to you, I promise.
And let me say by the way I need to apologize to everybody. You knocked me off balance, Ms. Ali, last night. It took me a beat to come to Crystal`s defense. She had to ask for it first, and I apologize for that too.
PINKSY: Here we go. Ms. Ali, what could Zimmerman have said to convince you on the stand if he ever got up there that he was in fact defending himself?
ALI: Oh, I don`t think that there`s anything at this point he could say to convince me of that because of the facts that have been given and the information he withheld from the police. I keep talking about that.
But the other thing that the defense is going to do, they`re going to try to make Trayvon Martin now look bad. They`re going to try to criticize him about the marijuana in his system, about how he behaved in school, what kind of child he was or whatever. Because what they have to do is devalue Trayvon`s life in order to make Zimmerman`s life seem more important and worth saving.
PINSKY: Jenny, you got something to say?
ALI: And once they`re able to convince the jury that Zimmerman was a better person than Trayvon, they feel they`ve won the case.
PINSKY: Got you.
Jenny, I saw your hand up there and, Crystal. Jenny, go.
HUTT: So, look. Do I like the concept of saying nasty things about Trayvon Martin? Of course not. It`s devastating that he is no longer here.
However, if under the law, the defense is entitled to bring in these text messages and these pictures, then under the law they`re entitled to do so.
PINSKY: I know, Jenny. We made a whole stink about it when people were demeaning Travis Alexander. We made an issue of that.
HUTT: Listen. I don`t like it, but the defense`s job is to defend George Zimmerman. I might not like him, but the defense`s job is to defend him.
PINSKY: All right. Crystal?
WRIGHT: Facts are facts. And I think we need to look at the facts in the evidence. That`s what a trial is about. That`s what a court of justice is about. It`s not about public opinion from last year convicting George Zimmerman before he even had a trial. And making this all boil down to race.
So I think so the pictures on the phone should be allowed. I think we need to know what kind of young man Trayvon Martin was.
But at the end of the day, it`s tragic that he`s no longer here.
The question is, did George Zimmerman act in self-defense? That`s the question. And I`m sorry, Shahrazad doesn`t want to accept evidence and facts.
PINSKY: Ms. Ali, one of the things that troubled me and the producer brought this up. And I`m going to talk about it again later on the show is, you know, we don`t have a chance to tell -- Jeff, maybe I`ll go to you on this, to give you a chance to talk here. We don`t know what Trayvon was thinking. Maybe Trayvon thought -- Trayvon may have been aware there were crimes in that neighborhood too. He may have thought he fumbled into a guy in a robbery or something. He may have thought he was doing vigilante work. Who knows?
ALI: Well, it`s always hard to go back -- go on.
JEFF JOHNSON, PUBLIC RELATIONS EXPERT: -- by someone that -- can you hear me?
PINSKY: I got you. Go ahead.
JOHNSON: That Trayvon was being followed by someone that he does not know. That he was pursued by this person in a neighborhood he was supposed to be in. And so when we start talking about trying to figure out what Trayvon may or may not have known, what we do know without a shadow of a doubt is that he was being followed by someone he did not know in a community he was supposed to be in. And at the end of the day, that was the initial problem.
PINSKY: Jeff, you`re in touch with a wide community through your radio show. What do you think -- how do you think people are going to react should there be a not guilty verdict?
JOHNSON: Well, I think people are going to be angry. I think some people are going to go to social media to express their level of anger.
But I`ll be honest with you. I think there are a lot of people in the progressive community who are gearing themselves up to be ready for an acquittal. And they don`t believe in many cases the prosecution has done what they should have been able to do with the evidence available to them to be able to put George Zimmerman in a place without a shadow of a doubt where he would be convicted.
And so, I think there are a lot of people concerned. There are a lot of people that don`t believe that this is going to come forward, the conviction for George Zimmerman.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Ms. Ali.
WRIGHT: So I have a question.
ALI: Well --
PINSKY: Ms. Ali first. Go ahead, Ms. Ali.
ALI: Now, I thought you said we couldn`t do that.
PINSKY: I got your back. I got your back. Crystal and then Mark.
Ms. Ali, first.
ALI: All right. Thank you. Thank you.
I think the greater issue here is going to be that we have to get a message out into the African-American black community that this is not the time to get so upset when this guy is acquitted and go out and start having riots or destroying private property. There`s still buildings in Newark, New Jersey, that have never been restored as a result of the riots in the `60s.
So, we don`t want to repeat that history. We don`t want to get charged with looting. And have to hire a bunch of attorneys to get us out of jail. And maybe get shot with bullets that are not made of rubber. There`s a lot of things that can go on.
So I`m hoping somebody can reach our young people, because that`s who it would be. And convince them that this is not the time to say, well, I`ll just go crazy in the streets because Zimmerman was not guilty.
PINSKY: OK, listen, I got to get across the break here. So, let me take a break.
Jeff, I saw your hand up. Crystal, I saw your hand up. Mark I have not heard from you yet. I will get to you after the break.
And later on, our own medical examiner, versus the man on the stand. What does Bill Lloyd think of today`s star witness?
Back after this.
I guess he thinks he`s an NFL fan or something. We`ll find out what that means, later.
PINSKY: And welcome back.
My co-host is Jenny Hutt.
We`re getting back to our panel.
Crystal, then, Mark. Crystal, go.
WRIGHT: Yes. What bothers me, Dr. Drew, is you asked Jeff what he`s hearing from his people, his listeners. So I`m assuming you all are implying black people and then, Ms. Ali says she hopes African-Americans or black people don`t riot.
What troubles me about all this stereotyping is -- what you all have said puts all black people in some box. Like, A, we`re savages, B, we all think alike, vote alike, and eat alike, and pray alike. You all didn`t say all this kind of commentary when Casey Anthony`s trial was going on because you don`t have white people talking about, oh, how will white people act if X, Y, and Z, happens or if Casey Anthony, you know, is not -- well, she wasn`t found guilty, right?
But it`s all this condescending talk to black people. We are not a monolithic group and we are not savages. I think some black people will react based on the evidence what the jury finds. That`s what I think.
PINSKY: I knew you and Ms. Ali would find a common ground.
Jeff, go. I mean, you first before Mark. Jeff, go.
JOHNSON: Yes. First of all, these are Crystal`s own preconceived notions. That`s not what anybody said. And my listeners are not all black.
JOHNSON: Even as we began to talk about what Ms. Ali said about the reaction of the African-American community, she was speaking to past incidents where African-Americans had been targeted and the response of an African-American community. But to her --
WRIGHT: That`s not true.
JOHNSON: -- response, I don`t think -- we have to remember that leading up to this case, there was tons of opportunity for civil disobedience. We did not see it. There were no arrests that took place. All of the protests were peaceful.
This is already a group of young people that have shown that they are trying to provide the opportunity for the law to be able to take place, for this case to be able to see its course. So, I don`t think we`re going to see even if there is an acquittal, young people that are taking to the streets to burn up things.
What I do hope, however, is there are young people who take to the streets and roll on state legislatures to a fight to fight "Stand Your Ground" laws. And roll in midterm elections to be able to see the people in state legislatures that won`t see these kind of laws in Florida allowed to exist in other states.
But I don`t think we`re going to see violence from young people. That`s not the kind of general --
WRIGHT: And who are these young people you`re talking about?
PINSKY: Hold on. Crystal, one second. Everybody.
Mark, you have been quietly behaving yourself. Go.
EIGLARSH: Thank you. It`s nice to hear that people aren`t gearing up for violence. It would make absolutely no sense to do so. Anyone who thinks that this trial or any trial is about the truth is either naive or intellectually dishonest.
PINSKY: Again, where`s my Pepto-Bismol, Mark? Once again, you make me nauseated sometimes with that.
WRIGHT: Why don`t we all go to Egypt? Let`s go to Egypt, if --
EIGLARSH: Hold on, I`m not done.
WRIGHT: Let`s go to Egypt.
EIGLARSH: I`m not done. I`m not done.
EIGLARSH: Trials are not about the truth. The defense`s obligation is to acquit the defendant. The prosecution must prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt. A not guilty verdict doesn`t mean Trayvon was bad or Zimmerman is good, or vice versa.
I don`t love that they`re trying to cast aspersions on his character. They don`t need to. What it means is the prosecution doesn`t have sufficient evidence to prove that this was not self-defense.
EIGLARSH: That`s all it means. It doesn`t mean that Zimmerman didn`t do something fundamentally wrong or even unlawful.
EIGLARSH: It just means they don`t have the proof. That`s all it means. So there`s no reason --
PINSKY: Hold on, buddy. Jenny next up.
But, Jenny, I want to propose this to you is that we are all frustrated on some level with this, because Zimmerman didn`t follow a police order. He, you know, sort of stalked this guy. He behaved in ways like can`t he be held accountable for something? Somebody died because of the choices he made that night. But Mark`s point is well taken.
HUTT: It`s incredibly frustrating. I need to take a minute and go back to Crystal, if I may, Dr. Drew.
Crystal, when Dr. Drew spoke to Jeff and said your people, I heard it only as your listeners. Meaning cross section of all people. So I`m -- it`s unclear to me why you heard it as something other than that.
Now, in terms of Ms. Ali, what was said last night was completely inappropriate. I`m sorry that you had to be on the receiving end of that. I get that. But what I think what she was saying tonight was also again about past history. And I`m sorry that it keeps reading to like you something else, but to me, and I`m pretty sensitive to all this kind of stuff --
WRIGHT: Jenny, wait a minute. It`s not about -- you might be sensitive. You`re not black, frankly.
HUTT: No, but I`m a white Jew. I`m through prosecution.
WRIGHT: Ms. Shahrazad, excuse me. I know. But Shahrazad, I just want to finish something, Shahrazad said she`s been saying for the last two weeks about riots. She`s almost inciting it.
Riots, I don`t want African-Americans to riot.
PINSKY: Wait. Wait. Crystal, now you`re --
WRIGHT: You haven`t heard me --
PINSKY: You`re now verging on the inappropriate language. I got your back, Ms. Ali.
WRIGHT: I`m not.
PINSKY: Finish your thought.
WRIGHT: If you don`t interrupt me, I`ll finish my thought. So, what I`m saying is, she`s been talking about riots. I haven`t been talking about riots because I don`t think black people will riot. I think black people like white people are going to feel differently about the case.
And it`s also about meeting a burden of proof and reasonable doubt. There`s so much reasonable doubt here that I think George Zimmerman will be found not guilty.
I never said, made any commentary -- you know, I`m not talking about somebody`s innocence. So, anyway.
PINSKY: OK. Got it.
Ms. Ali, go.
ALI: I think that Crystal doesn`t know anything about black people. And so that`s why she`s making all of these comments.
ALI: I`m talking to the element in our black community who are already disappointed in the law. The law has disappointed them. The courts have disappointed him. The prisons have disappointed them.
And that element in our community is across this country and especially in Florida, they`re not going to be happy when they let Zimmerman walk.
PINSKY: OK, hold your thought.
ALI: That`s who I`m talking to. We can`t ignore that and pretend that that doesn`t exist.
PINSKY: Interesting. Crystal, respond. Then, Jeff.
WRIGHT: Well, A, I don`t know what our community is, Shahrazad, because I`m a black woman. I`m from the South. I`m a lot of things. And I`m not part of your community. And blacks don`t live in some chocolate pint of ice cream. OK?
WRIGHT: We are different just like white people and Hispanics. Stop using this phrase our community. If you want to be part of the solution, let`s talk about things that are keeping black, holding blacks down economically. Let`s talk about the violence plaguing --
ALI: Crystal --
PINSKY: Hang on, hang on, ladies.
WRIGHT: It`s a bunch of crap.
PINSKY: Jeff, I want to go to you.
PINSKY: Jeff, I started this whole thing by talking about your radio audience. I apologize for that. Take us home, please.
JOHNSON: I have listeners all over the country, all over the world that are all races. But the point here is that there is -- the community that was the most passionate about this community in the beginning, those people who were mobilizing to see George Zimmerman arrested, those young people that are from a cross-section of communities, because they weren`t just African-American young people. They weren`t just poor young people. They were people that were conscientious that said I want to see something happen.
And those -- none of those people were violent. None of those people looted. None of those people got arrested. None of those people got disobedience.
And so, I just think that we should be clear that a precedent has already been set and leadership has already been clear about the fact that violence in this incident is not going to bring about what we need to happen.
What is, however, is the mobilization at state legislature in the midterm elections --
PINSKY: Fair enough.
JOHNSON: -- in seeing the kind of people elected into office that will push policy, right, Dr. Drew, that doesn`t allow "Stand Your Ground" and other kind of laws like this to be the law of the land.
PINSKY: Got you, guys. Thank you all for playing nice. For --
ALI: Policy has failed us.
PINSKY: Well, we have a lot more to talk about. I hear you. And I think other people understand what you`re talking about. Good conversation, guys.
Next up, George Zimmerman`s friend and defender. Someone who Jenny makes you twitch, I know. Frank Taaffe joins the behavior bureau. We`re going to just take him apart a little bit, dissect him.
And later a witness says the evidence favors Zimmerman. What does our Dr. Lloyd have to say about that? Back after this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not like --
HUTT: First of all, this is outrageous. OK? Let me start with that.
TAAFFE: Don`t take my words out of context. Don`t take my words out of context.
EIGLARSH: Samantha --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
TAAFFE: I didn`t say -- I didn`t say all!
HUTT: My biggest issue with you, Frank, is that you seem to inflame rather than go to a place of healing. I understand you want to defend your friend, but your manner and your delivery and often your word choice is somewhat suspect to someone like me.
TAAFFE: Listen, you`re not -- don`t judge me. Hey, you don`t judge me.
HUTT: Hold on a minute.
TAAFFE: You don`t judge me.
HUTT: Excuse me?
TAAFFE: You`re not my judge. You don`t judge me.
You`re not going to make this forum to judge me. You speak, I speak, let`s go forward. Be nice in the sandbox.
Dr. Drew just said it. What are you trying to tell me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What I`m trying to say is this. That his emotional level of functioning is not --
TAAFFE: How do you know that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- as developed as somebody who`s 25.
TAAFFE: How do you know that? You`re -- how do you know that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have (INAUDIBLE) in clinical psychology.
TAAFFE: That`s kind of a broad statement. Did you interview him?
PINSKY: It is time for our behavior bureau.
Back with my co-host Jenny Hutt.
And joining us, Samantha Schacher, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network.
Wendy Walsh, Frank, she`s a psychologist and author of "The 30-Day Love Detox".
Criminal investigator, Danine Manette, author of "Ultimate Betrayal," joins us by phone? Is that right? I see Danine -- Danine is there.
And back with us tonight is Frank Taaffe.
Frank is George Zimmerman`s outspoken friend and a supporter. And the man the center of many heated discussions here, not just on my program but throughout HLN. The control room is telling me something. What was that?
Oh, you`re drinking decaf today, Frank?
What is it? Is it crack or is decaf coffee?
TAAFFE: No. It`s decaf.
PINSKY: Good. Thank you.
So, tonight, you`re in a calm mood tonight, is that what you`re saying?
TAAFFE: Yes. I`m chillaxed. I think everybody needs to jump on the train. Because, you know, acceptance is the answer to all our problems today, Dr. Drew.
And, you know what? I`m not going to -- I`m not going to go there where your pal wants me to go tonight. You`re not going to dissect me. Because the evidence and facts and testimony and everything that has been presented to this jury, I feel very confident will reach a non or not guilty verdict. The verdict is from Latin which means the truth.
PINSKY: Well, but I learned from my buddy, Mark Eiglarsh, that courtroom is no place for the truth, which makes me nauseated. I`m with you on that, Frank. But he keeps pounding that in my head.
Jenny, what do you have to say?
HUTT: That was beautifully put, rather poetic, Frank.
PINSKY: OK. Now --
HUTT: But, and listen, I`m going to be as calm as you are. It`s the same methodical approach to deal with one another. It`s lovely of you.
PINSKY: OK. Here`s the --
TAAFFE: Jenny, I was asked today, you know, what I thought would happen at the trial. And I unequivocally said it would be not guilty. It was posed to me what happens if it is a guilty verdict.
I said "A," I`d be disappointed, but you know what? We`re here to ensure this judicial system works for everyone. I know Ms. Ali would controvert that, because it has been portrayed or played out before in the past where African-Americans and especially here in the South that have been ostracized and criminalized for things that they did not do.
And I think that`s the essence of this controversy that this has so polarized our country that, you know, it`s split down racial lines. We have, you know, white Caucasians that are predominantly pro-George Zimmerman, and then you have those in the African-American community that are, you know, for Trayvon Martin or seeing that justice for Trayvon. And I want to go back to the epicenter of how this all came about. You know, George was not arrested because they found no probable cause.
PINSKY: I understand that. Now, Frank, here`s the deal. This is a behavior bureau, and you agreed to come on it. And you`re behaving beautifully tonight, but in the past, as Jenny has put it, you inflamed. You inflame people. And I wanted to take a little bit of a look at -- just a little bit. Just relax. You can chillax some more like you said.
TAAFFE: I`m chill, man.
TAAFFE: Doctor`s in the house.
PINSKY: What we can learn about --
PINSKY: I`m going to Wendy. Wendy, Frank can be a little threatening for people. And even if we don`t hear what he`s saying sometimes because he evokes us.
WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, when I hear someone being a little defensive and combative, and I`m not talking about you specifically, Frank, so just try to take it in. The first place my mind goes to is --
TAAFFE: I`m good.
WALSH: OK. I wonder what that person is afraid of and why they`re feeling threatened. So, I`m wondering when you appear on television if you have maybe a belief system that the media is all pro-Trayvon, all against George, and therefore, it is your duty --
TAAFFE: You know, that`s a great question.
WALSH: Yes. Go ahead. I`d like to hear the answer.
TAAFFE: That`s a great question, because, well, I`m going to give it to you. Just give me a second. This has been a malicious prosecution of a man who was just looking out for the safety of his community. Yes, we know it ended tragically with the death of a 17-year-old African-American male, Trayvon Martin. That we can`t change.
What we can change is this precedent that, you know, every time an issue comes up where a young Black male is shot by a White man, that we immediately go to opposite corners. We need to look for the truth and the value of what justice is right now in this country. And it`s being played out right behind me in this courthouse.
And he will walk free, because they cannot -- the state has yet to disprove self-defense. That is the core of the strategy.
PINSKY: OK. Danine, you`re a criminal investigator. You deal with men that can be aggressive and bombastic. What are your thoughts?
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Every day, I deal with people that can be hostile and angry. And I don`t have the option to have a weapon or mute button or anything like that. And I just deployed some techniques when dealing with people like that. I step back and I give them their space and I lower my tone so that we can have a dialogue and that I don`t inflame them anymore by being very aggressive.
MANETTE: But what seems to get lost in this is that people need to understand when they make gross generalizations about particular groups, people in that group are going to be offended. And, so, like for instance, in my community, three child molestation cases involved male elementary school teachers.
For someone to get on TV and then say we`re going to scrutinize all male teachers because other people fit into this category is offensive to that group of people. And you need to be prepared for that backlash when you make statements that generalize an entire group of people based on your particular experiences or understanding of how things work.
PINSKY: Hold it right there. Behavior bureau is going to come back after the break.
And later on, was this man a slam dunk for the defense? We`ll talk about it. Be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MANETTE: When I was a young teenager, I was walking home from school because we got out of school early unexpectedly. There was a guy in a van that drove by me. He turned around and drove back again, he turned around and drove back a third time. I got really scared and I hid behind a car. I was shaking like a leaf. I don`t know if he was undercover, truancy officer, I don`t know if he was the undercover mailman.
I didn`t know who this guy was, but I`m telling you now that had he gotten out of that van and came towards me, I would have picked up whatever I had, a bottle, a brick, a stick, as stone, and I would have tried to kill that man.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Behavior bureau is with Frank Taaffe tonight. He is George Zimmerman`s good friend and a former neighbor. Danine, thank you for sharing that story with us. It sort of puts a nice focus on the circumstance. You, had you been followed that night, might have tried to kill George Zimmerman.
MANETTE: Yes. Yes, because -- I can`t put myself in any other shoes except for the shoes of the person that was being followed. And even listening to that story again it still affects me the same way. No, I would not have run home. People have asked that about Trayvon. I`m not going to let a stalker follow me to my home.
I wasn`t going to do that, but I will certainly not going to let him take me to the second crime scene. So, I don`t know who he was. I just know how I felt. And I think that we all have some idea of what happened that night between Trayvon and Zimmerman, but I think Trayvon is the only person who believes that he was probably killed as a result of a botched robbery, kidnapping, or rape. I think he`s the only person in the situation that doesn`t have any idea why he`s dead.
PINSKY: It`s a really interesting -- Samantha, I want to hear from you. It`s a really interesting point. We brought it up in one of the earlier blocks which is that he -- Trayvon may have known about the crimes in the community, too, and thought he was interrupting or a part of a botched crime or something. Samantha, go ahead.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST, "POP TRIGGER": Well, I have so much to say I don`t even know where to begin. I want to touch on the emotions. I want to comment on I like the new chillaxed Frank.
SCHACHER: But as far as what you`re -- what we`re discussing at this moment with Danine, what I have to say, of course, you know, Trayvon Martin was probably obviously also fearful of his life. And let`s say that George Zimmerman was fearful of his life, too, but that`s when you don`t bring a gun into a fistfight. If that were the case, all the bar fights that I`ve witnessed, all the school fights that I`ve witnessed would have ended in fatality. That`s the difference.
PINSKY: Again, I always learn something about our panel members during the behavior bureau. Samantha --
SCHACHER: Bar fights.
PINSKY: Very interesting. So, Frank, what do you think about that theory that Trayvon -- I mean, we really -- it`s such -- listen, this is a sad story. You agree with that, don`t you, Frank? The whole of this is sad situation.
TAAFFE: Sure. I`ve never gloated over the fact that he was killed. I never have gone out in public and shared that.
PINSKY: No, I understand.
TAAFFE: It`s tragic. As you know, Dr. Drew --
TAAFFE: -- I`ve shared before I`ve lost two children of my own the last five years. So, I can empathize with Sybrina and Tracy.
So, you know, that`s not the case here. It`s the malicious prosecution of George Zimmerman when all of this was prefaced by the Sanford Police Department and the state attorney that they found no probable cause and it wasn`t until Mr. Crump wrote a letter to the Department of Justice to investigate this when the governor of this state assigned Angela Corey, a special prosecutor, to look into this and they made up that bogus charging affidavit that was riddled, it was riddled with --
PINSKY: But we`re in court. We got to court. We`re in court. He`s having his day. Frank, one of the goals on behavior bureau was, again, was to look at you a little bit. I`m sorry. I`ve forgotten the story about your children. Can you revisit it with us again? What happened?
TAAFFE: Last August, I lost a son. He was 30 years old. He was killed in a DUI -- not a DUI, but he was involved with another DUI accident. He lost his life and another marine. And five years ago, I lost a son through cross toxicity of prescription drugs. So, if anyone can empathize with what Sybrina and Tracy are going through, I can. That`s not what I`m here to gloat over the death of a 17-year-old.
PINSKY: Stop while you`re ahead, Frank. Stop while you`re ahead. And I want to say, Jenny, I`m going to you now. This is when people are defensive and bullying, sometimes, there`s stuff like that behind it. You`re learning a bit here?
JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: That`s kind of what I feel like. First of all, I`m so sorry. I mean, let`s start with that.
TAAFFE: Thank you.
HUTT: I mean, no one should have to go through such tragedy and wow.
HUTT: But I do feel that behind maybe some of your anger what I see as anger, what I see as rage is this sort of inescapable pain. And so, I kind of get --
TAAFFE: I`ll tell you where it comes from.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Frank.
TAAFFE: I have been -- I, myself, have been on the end of some past malicious prosecution. And I can tell you this that I feel for George Zimmerman. And I jumped out there when nobody else would. And I know that this man is innocent. That`s why I will not let him go down.
PINSKY: OK. Wendy, hang on.
PINSKY: I want to go to Wendy.
PINSKY: Wendy, take it home. Just wrap it up here. Go ahead. You started this. You talked about the defensiveness and why, and here we found out. Take it home.
WALSH: Yes. Well, you know, the big elephant in the living room not only in the trial but certainly in this show and Frank is fear. It`s this emotion fear and this desire to protect because of this fear. And I feel like hearing these stories about the loss of your children, it breaks my heart. And it makes me wonder if George Zimmerman is finally the son you can protect here because you couldn`t protect the other ones.
PINSKY: Or himself. Or himself from malicious prosecution.
TAAFFE: You know what? That`s a very good point. And I do consider him like a son. He`s 29 years old. He`s the same age as the son I lost last august. So, yes. I`m going to protect him. And I`m going to tell you right now on the air that, you know, I`ll take a bullet for that guy.
He`s not going to go down. I`m not going to let anybody hurt him or his brother, Robert. Never. I promised him.
PINSKY: Let`s leave it there. Frank, I appreciate you coming on letting us talk about the way we have.
WALSH: Thanks for opening up.
PINSKY: Thank you, panel. Thank you for opening up.
SCHACHER: Thank you, Frank.
PINSKY: Coming up, we`re changing gears. Our own expert, Dr. Bill Lloyd is back. He has conducted hundreds of autopsies. The question today is, does he agree with the expert witness -- the expert testimony today by the pathologist. Does he agree with all that? Find out after the break.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up top of the hour on "HLN After Dark." Everyone`s been talking about how bad the prosecution case has been going, Ryan.
RYAN SMITH, HLN ANCHOR: Right. And that`s a big issue. So, here`s our bold question. Did investigators blow the case? We`ve got our in- studio jury, our six women in the front just like the Zimmerman trial. They`re going to decide this issue at the end of the show.
POLITAN: Did investigators blow the case? That`s our bold question. "HLN After Dark" top of the hour.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Physical evidence is consistent with Mr. Martin being over Mr. Zimmerman. We know the clothing was two to four inches away. It`s consistent with somebody leaning over the person doing the shooting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can`t say whether it was Trayvon Martin defending himself or George Zimmerman defending himself in terms of when this first started.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When it first started, that`s correct, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does the trauma that you see in that photograph and this photograph consistent with having been struck hard in the face?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If I, right now, reached across, put my hand through your chest, grabbed your heart, and ripped it out, you could stand there and talk to me for 10 to 15 seconds. How long was he conscious? Significantly shorter than the time necessary to die.
PINSKY: Welcome back. Jenny Hutt is my co-host. Dr. Vincent Di Maio is a pathologist who testified for the defense saying today Trayvon Martin was on top of George Zimmerman`s face and head were bruised. Trayvon was conscious for at least 10 to 15 seconds after he was shot. I think he said up to three minutes.
My own pathologist, Dr. Bill Lloyd, is here to give his expert opinion. Also joining us, Attorneys Mark Eiglarsh and Lauren Lake.
Dr. Lloyd out to you first. First of all, I want to take issue with this. This is about tearing somebody`s heart out and then standing there and talking to you. I`m sorry. That would not happen. Anybody that watches MMA fights, watch what happens when somebody gets choked out.
They`re down the second the blood supply is cut off, and that`s what happen when you tear the aorta open. So, please, hyperbole, I`m part of the doctor (ph), but you thought by and large he was pretty good.
DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST: I had the opportunity to review Dr. Di Maio`s testimony today, and I thought he explained things very clearly. Now, for the sake of disclosure, the audience needs to know. Dr. Di Maio is a titan in forensic psychology. I know this because over 20 years ago, I trained under Dr. Di Maio when he was chief medical examiner in San Antonio and Baylor County (ph), Texas.
And his father was chief medical examiner in New York City. Between the two of them, they have almost a century experience. This is what I know. Vincent Di Maio has seen it all. He`s written the books on forensic pathology and he`s a specialist in gunshot injuries. He has seen it all and his comments related to the absence of fibers and fabric burns where the bullet struck the skin indicated that gap was there.
The gap was there because the barrel of the pistol was three to four inches away from the body. Had the fabric been on the body, then you would have seen in addition to burn marks and soot, you would also have seen fabric in the wounds.
PINSKY: Got it. I`m dying to hear from Lauren, but Mark, you`ve been waving your hand at me. So, Mark, go ahead.
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: All right. First of all, I thought this was a compelling witness before I learned that he trained a brilliant Dr. Big Knife. Now, I have even more respect for this witness, OK? What he didn`t do was try to support the prosecution`s theory that this could have happened anyway other than Zimmerman suggested.
In other words, prosecutors tried to suggest, well, he could have both then standing up and Zimmerman could grab Trayvon Martin`s shirt and then shot him. And then, this witness said, no, no, no. It wouldn`t have lined up correctly. Would have shot him through the shirt and then it would have been physically correct.
So, he eliminated that as a possibility leaving the version of Zimmerman gave as the only plausible scenario. I thought it was a compelling witness.
PINSKY: Lauren, I see a lot of emotion on your face tonight. I want to hear from you.
LAUREN LAKE, ATTORNEY: You know, well, Mark, I think on cross, didn`t he have to admit ultimately that the wound he investigated could be consistent with Trayvon trying to get away as well? Didn`t he have that admit that on cross? I thought I read that in the trial --
EIGLARSH: That is correct. But on top of him. But he was on top of him.
LAKE: Well, you know from the beginning, I have been consistent that I don`t care who was on the top or the bottom because the aggressor of the fight initially could have been on the bottom and Trayvon could have been on the top trying to jam his head in the concrete to call for help or to try to get away.
EIGLARSH: Objection. Speculation.
LAKE: Well, that`s all we`re doing on this show.
EIGLARSH: Objection, Lauren. It`s all speculation.
LAKE: But that`s what the jury is going to be in the jury room thinking about the other ways --
EIGLARSH: No, no, no.
PINSKY: Hold on.
LAKE: Mark, Mark.
EIGLARSH: Lauren, where`s the evidence of that? Where`s the evidence of that?
LAKE: Let me tell you what the --
PINSKY: Mark hold off. Lauren, finish up.
EIGLARSH: I came into this with an open mind. But where`s the evidence to prove --
PINSKY: Mark, I`ve got to stop you.
LAKE: But Mark, you have to listen. This case and the way the jury thinks about this case is also going to depend on the lens in which they`re seeing this evidence. It is possible that Trayvon was fearful of his life. He says I am going to try to lose this guy. So, maybe in the jury`s mind, there could be a possibility that he was trying to get away.
PINSKY: Hold it. Hold it.
LAKE: That`s where I get it from.
PINSKY: Hold it right there. Dr. Bill Lloyd after the break will tell us what the football helmet was all about. Be right with you.
PINSKY: And welcome back. Jenny Hutt is my co-host. Now, Dr. Bill Lloyd, you were a forensic pathologist. What do you make of the possibility that George Zimmerman had suffered a concussion on the ground and that contributed to his actions?
LLOYD: You know, it`s an important dimension that few others are talking about. Here`s a football helmet that I brought along to remind you. Football players get concussions all the time and they don`t get any cuts on their scalp. And they land on AstroTurf. The scientific evidence shows that George Zimmerman`s head was pounded on the concrete maybe three to six times.
There were multiple scalp lacerations. When the concussion happens, there can be all kinds of disorientation and confusion. Visual problems. He may for a second blacked out, or for a second, thought there was more than one attacker prompting him to go for the gun. And then, the next day he might not have remembered much of it at all.
Just like a football player, it gets hurt on the football field, he gets up right away and says I want to go back in, coach.
PINSKY: Got it.
PINSKY: My sons went through all that. I went through it myself. But Mark, I think you`ve trained me to know that there just wasn`t evidence of that, was there?
EIGLARSH: No. And here`s what everyone needs to understand. He doesn`t have to have legally suffered any concussion or any significant serious injury. Just reasonably feared death or great bodily harm. And if anyone --
PINSKY: Back to the attorney speak.
EIGLARSH: If it`s their loved one on their back, you know, you got to say that`s what he feared.
LAKE: But Dr. Drew, but the reasonable fear, Dr. Drew, is going to be directly related to his unreasonably getting out of the car and following someone he was told not to follow. The juries` perspective --
LAKE: No, no, no. It`s not about it being unlawful --
LAKE: As they look to what is reasonable, him getting out of the car was unreasonable when he was told not to. How far will that unreasonableness take him in his future actions?
PINSKY: Thank you. "Last Call" is next.
PINSKY: Hey, Jenny, I know you`re dying to get in during that panel. Now, here`s your chance.
HUTT: OK. So, going to what Lauren just said. Look, it doesn`t make it right. it doesn`t make it -- it`s awful that Trayvon martin died, but legally, if the law supports what George Zimmerman did, meaning if he feared for his life regardless of the fact that he followed Trayvon, that he got out of the car, then that`s what we have to go with.
PINSKY: There you go. Thank you, Jenny. See you all next time. It`s been interesting -- a very interesting show tonight. I want to thank our panelists for behaving properly. A note, "HLN After Dark" starts right now.