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George Zimmerman Murder Trial
Aired July 11, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, George Zimmerman trial showdown.
BERNIE DE LA RIONDA, PROSECUTOR: A teenager is dead. He is dead through no fault of his own.
PINSKY: Will jurors believe him? What will they decide? How will a nation react?
SHAHRAZAD ALI, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: By them always making the bad guy black you couldn`t tell what the bruises or movements were --
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Oh, come on, come on.
JENNY HUTT, RADIO HOST: Oh, come on. Really?
PINSKY: Hang on, guys, hang on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Really? Are we really going to go there with the dummy?
PINSKY: It`s not over yet.
Let`s get started.
PINSKY: God evening, everybody.
My co-host this evening is, of course, Jenny Hutt, attorney and Sirius XM Radio host.
Jenny, are you ready for this evening?
HUTT: You betcha.
PINSKY: It`s going to be a wild one, I suspect. We`ve got quite a lineup, I urge you to stick with us. I`m actually very -- I`m almost nervous about what we`ve got lined up here.
And coming up, Zimmerman defender, of course, Frank Taaffe, whom you, if you`re watching Nancy, you just heard him get a marriage proposal, Jenny. Someone just came through on the phone and asked him to marry her. He will be taking on some very tough critics tonight on this program.
And meanwhile, of course, today was a day of arguments in the courtroom, started with a strong accusation against the prosecution and it ended with the state`s dramatic closing argument.
Take a look at this tape.
DON WEST, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh my God.
Just when I thought this case couldn`t get any more bizarre.
Is the court going to give this any serious contention or consideration? Because if so, we have a lot of talking to do.
Part of a larger scheme, another trick that the state is seeking because --
JUDGE DEBRA NELSON, SEMINOLE COUNTY, FL: I don`t want to hear the word trick anymore in regards to these arguments, please?
WEST: Judge, this was a trick. Doesn`t the court realize this was a trick by the state?
DE LA RIONDA: He kept denying something, what? He`s got the equalizer. He`s going to take care of it. He`s a wannabe cop.
He rolled down the window and identified himself as neighborhood watch? Saying, listen, I`ve called police, I`m not a bad guy, I`m not a pervert.
RACHEL JEANTEL, WITNESS: He told me that a man was looking at him. So I had to think -- it might have been a rapist.
DE LA RIONDA: What did he say to him and what did he say to you?
JEANTEL: Nah, stop playing around like that.
DE LA RIONDA: I`m sorry?
JEANTEL: With him like that.
DE LA RIONDA: Isn`t it true that this defendant assumed Trayvon Martin was a criminal? Why wasn`t necessary to say that under his breath? OK, he is a -- pardon my language (EXPLETIVE DELETED). So, when the officer comes, pardon my language, (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
Poor defendant, poor George Zimmerman. He just kind of took it, boom, boom. Just getting whacked over and over. He never did anything. Eighteen months, MMA fighting, oh, but of course, he`s just a pudgy, overweight man.
Who suffered the most serious injury of all?
PINSKY: HLN`s own Jane Velez-Mitchell is joining from us from Florida.
Jane, can you give us the latest this evening?
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST (via telephone): Well, this was a passionate closing argument by prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda, Dr. Drew, went over just two hours, he shouted, he stepped (ph), he brandished a gun. And as you just heard he said, George Zimmerman, a wannabe cop, who lied repeatedly, he said, the forensics do not back up George`s story.
I thought one of his most effective points is he said George Zimmerman made a number of false assumptions. He assumed the Trayvon Martin didn`t belong in the community. He assumed that Trayvon Martin had committed a burglary or was about to. That he was a criminal. That they always get away. And that he was a bleeping punk.
Now, critics say that perhaps he was a little sarcastic, he was a little too rambling. But I think the biggest criticism is that the fact that he`s not offered a completely clear-cut alternative theory of the case. In other words, we know exactly what the defense is saying happened, whether you believe it or not. But they think, really, the prosecution did not present a crystal clear alternative theory of who did what, when.
PINSKY: Thank you so much, Jane.
That`s one of the things that sort of bothered me throughout this: is what, Jenny, was Trayvon thinking when this was all going on? And why didn`t the prosecution offer a story to help us understand what that was, at least a theory?
HUTT: Right. Well, I think that`s going to be their biggest problem, Dr. Drew. I think that`s why there`s probably going to be a not guilty when it comes to murder two. And there`s a possibility of a conviction with manslaughter.
PINSKY: OK, that`s what we`re going to get into now.
Joining us: attorney Mark Eiglarsh from speaktomark.com; criminologist and attorney Casey Jordan, star of "Wives with Knives" on Investigation Discovery; Brian Copeland, talk show host on KGO Radio in San Francisco, and author of "Not a Genuine Black Man"; and social commentator Shahrazad Ali. She is the author of "The Blackwoman`s Guide to Understanding the Blackman."
Now, guys, I want to play a clip, a longer clip of something we just watched and just heard. I want you all to respond to it. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DE LA RIONDA: He rolled down the window and identified himself as neighborhood watch, said I called the police, I`m not a bad guy, I`m not a pervert, I`m not following you for anything, whatever your name is, like you might wait, the police are on the way, they`re going to be here in 30 seconds or a minute, sometimes they take a little longer, but would you mind waiting here, I`m suspicious what was you`re doing, would you mind waiting?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Mark, did the prosecution overreach in their closing arguments both in terms of what they were speculating or theorizing and in terms of not modulating the presentation? He was yelling almost the whole time.
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Yes, look, he did the best that he could with the little evidence that he has. And understand they were grossly hindered from the very beginning because Zimmerman by his own admission killed the only other eyewitness to this crime, either because he legally feared death or great bodily harm, he was justified, or because he cold bloodedly killed this kid in second degree murder. Either way, it leaves the prosecution with a gaming hole in their case, one that cannot be overcome by emotion and passion.
PINSKY: Casey, do you agree with Mark and why didn`t they offer us another story to help us understand what poor Trayvon was going through?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Yes, and I have no idea. I mean, bottom line is everyone keeps waiting for the theory to come out. And it`s as if the prosecution is just sailing around the Cape of Hope instead of going through the Panama Canal. They just keep throwing out, here are all the ingredients for something I`m cooking up, but I don`t know how to make it.
And so, they all had this random information that they aren`t stitching it together. They need to knit it, not patchwork it. And, really, exactly as Jenny said, a concrete theory -- just an idea to put it out there. Here`s how we think it went down. And, by the way, he pursued him, he assumed, he profiled.
You can actually stitch it together in a way that would make sense to the jury. But the prosecution seems to just be letting the jury make it up themselves and that is not good trial practice.
PINSKY: Interesting. And they seem to challenge the jury about Rachel Jeantel, Trayvon Martin`s friend. Take a look at this tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DE LA RIONDA: You disregard what she said because she isn`t sophisticated and because she can`t read cursive? I mean, is that what you should do? I don`t think the instructions are going to tell you that, but you could decide -- well, she`s not very educated, I don`t think she`s -- and I`m not saying that you will.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Ms. Ali, how do you think this play with the jurors?
ALI: Well, I think -- I`ve been a juror before. I`ve been a juror in several cases over the years. And I`ll tell you something. When there`s an attorney out there and he starts getting too cute, he starts doing things that annoy us, sending us in and out the court, stopping and starting and doing a lot of things and saying things where he`s not proving his own case, sometimes we`ll vote against him no matter what the case is involved. We`ll say, we don`t like him, we`re not going to vote for anything he`s saying.
So that can be a problem. Now --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Ali, finish, please.
ALI: Back on why -- back on why -- back on why nobody said anything about what Trayvon was thinking, because the white judicial system don`t know what black people thinking. So, they don`t have any idea what his position was, what could have been going through his mind.
If he --
BRIAN COPELAND, RADIO HOST: Here we go again. Ms. Ali, you`re going to here again.
PINSKY: Brian, respond.
COPELAND: You`re going to go here again.
PINSKY: She certainly is consistent. Go ahead, Brian.
COPELAND: Yes, she`s certainly is consistent.
The bottom line here is, in terms of the statement that was made regarding Ms. Jeantel -- first of all, it was done because tomorrow the defense is going to come out and say she was not credible. Secondly, I believe he was heading it off at the pass because of -- after she testified, all over the Internet and Twittersphere and talk radio, all anybody was talking about was that she came across as being inarticulate and being illiterate.
And what he was saying is, regardless of even if you believe these things, it doesn`t mean that she`s not telling the truth.
COPELAND: So I think that that was actually a smart move, as I said, headed it off at the pass.
But to say nobody cared about what Trayvon was thinking because the white judicial system doesn`t care, if the judicial system didn`t care, we wouldn`t be here, Ms. Ali. There wouldn`t be a trial going on.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Ms. Ali.
ALI: That`s not true. That`s absolutely not true. They didn`t explain it. And here`s the other thing --
COPELAND: They didn`t explain what? They didn`t explain what?
ALI: I know, you all want me to forget about this. Well, we live in a country where y`all are still talking about, remember the Alamo, remember Pearl Harbor. So, why can`t I remember slavery?
PINSKY: Well, you may.
COPELAND: Certainly, I`m not saying you should forget about slavery. But it`s not the reason for all the ills in society. It`s not the reason for everything bad that befalls African-Americans.
ALI: It`s the reason for our ills.
COPELAND: When you start off with this --
COPELAND: What you do is you give people the opportunity to completely disregard everything that you`re saying.
PINSKY: Hold on, I`m going to get Jenny.
You`d been waiting quietly. Go ahead.
EIGLARSH: What is this have to do --
PINSKY: I know. I know, Mark. But Jenny first, then Mark.
HUTT: Ms. Ali, I want to say the reason we don`t know what`s going on in Trayvon`s head is because the kid has died. He was killed.
COPELAND: Thank you.
HUTT: That`s it, plain and simple.
COPELAND: Thank you.
PINSKY: And also, Mark, the prosecution is not giving --
ALI: People knew him beforehand.
PINSKY: Well, Mark, I worry that this kid thought he was in a -- maybe he thought he was -- who knows, give us some evidence. Does somebody got something?
EIGLARSH: Listen, I can definitely defend Trayvon. I believe that he reasonably feared death or great bodily harm. That doesn`t then take away from the prosecutor`s obligation. We`re focused exclusively on whether Zimmerman committed a crime and whether the prosecution can prove it. And legally, they don`t have all the elements.
You can`t force or speculate proof beyond a reasonable doubt. You just can`t do that. That`s unlawful.
PINSKY: So, Casey, is that why we`re not hearing about Trayvon? They`re just trying to prove this case against Zimmerman and they`re not even --
ALI: Don`t you all see?
PINSKY: I`m going to hear Casey. Hang on, Ms. Ali. Then I`ll get to you.
JORDAN: Well, I mean -- I think that they could have stitched it together by simply saying, you know, he referred to Zimmerman as creeping up on him, or being creepy. You know, in the phone call with Rachel, I really found it most imperative that she said, she heard Zimmerman say, who are you, or what are you doing here? And then her friend Trayvon say, get off me, get off me.
To me, that`s compelling, compelling that he was attacked and --
EIGLARSH: If they believe it.
JORDAN: -- that he live in fear. And -- if they believe it.
But he is not putting it together in a cogent way.
JORDAN: But I have a real quick question for Ms. Ali, because you said if you don`t like the prosecutor, you would vote against him case, just because you don`t like him, which would be nullification. Are you saying that you would vote against the letter of the law just based on whether you like or dislike one lawyer or another?
PINSKY: Or -- I`m going to give her a little out -- or are you just saying that naturally creeps into our decision-making listening to an attorney? Ms. Ali, please respond.
EIGLARSH: That`s not what she said, Drew. That`s not what she said.
PINSKY: I`m giving her a break. But let`s -- then I have to go to break. Ms. Ali, please?
EIGLARSH: Don`t give her a break. She`s a big girl, that`s what she said.
ALI: All I`m saying -- I`m saying that you`re right, that does naturally, it`s just an instinctive thing that you have. However, don`t you all see that there`s something inherently wrong with the judicial system where even if a person is guilty, if he`s not a good lawyer, he can get off? Don`t you see something`s wrong with that?
PINSKY: Well, let me stop right there. And that cuts across all races, that cuts across so many different aspects. That`s more a money and class issue, and yes, I think there is something wrong with that.
Net up, Frank Taaffe returns, guys. I just heard him get a marriage proposal on Nancy. He`s taking on his critics, who are here to sound off. Frank, man, buckle up.
Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRANK TAAFFE, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN`S FRIEND: The bottom line is that for the last 17 months, the state of Florida has been maliciously prosecuting George Michael Zimmerman. He was compliant and complacent. He says, "I can`t see him." What does that mean to you, Superman?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why are you yelling?
TAAFFE: Can you see in the dark?
The rest of America, you`re going to have to accept the fact that if Mr. Zimmerman walks free, which I still feel 100 percent confident that he will --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome back.
My co-host is, of course, Jenny Hutt.
Frank Taaffe, perhaps one of the most controversial folks we have on our show. He is -- there you are, Frank, he is George Zimmerman`s close friend and outspoken supporter.
Back in the hot seat tonight.
Frank, I`m going to show you a quick Twitter before I unleash my guests on you. Here we go, @floridametsfan (ph). "Dr. Drew, I think Frank Taaffe and Ms. Ali should all go to dinner together."
Maybe we can arrange that after we convene somewhere in Los Angeles perhaps.
TAAFFE: That would be a great -- thank you. Hi, Jenny, how you doing? Great to see you again.
HUTT: Just fine, Frank.
TAAFFE: I`m sure, I bet.
You know, that would be great. After this trial is over, maybe we can all start healing. How does that sound, Ms. Ali? I`m all for it.
PINSKY: That sounds good. Ms. Ali`s on ice for a moment, we`ll bring her back in a few minutes.
But who is joining us is Brian Copeland, Mark Eiglarsh, Michael Skolnik, he`s the editor of globalgrind.com, and a board member of the Trayvon Martin Foundation. And, of course, Frank right there.
Frank, last night, you were 100 percent confident George would in fact be acquitted. Now, my question is, are you still 100 percent confident given this maneuver where manslaughter is now an option?
TAAFFE: Sure. And the reason being, and I always like to defer to Mark because he is a criminal defense attorney, a very venerated criminal defense attorney here in the state of Florida. And, you know, the state still has to disprove self-defense.
You know, the elephant in the room and the hippo now in the room is the state still has not proven or shared how George actually received those wounds. All they talked about was that they were not significant or not life-threatening.
I never heard even in the closing how --
PINSKY: Let`s let Mark respond to that, Frank.
EIGLARSH: What`s that? You want me to respond?
PINSKY: I do.
EIGLARSH: Oh, great. No, Frank is actually making a good legal argument tonight. There`s no -- wow. Mark the date.
No, yes, he -- it`s the truth, there has not been proof -- I`m like, wow, did that really come out of him? I thought it was Copeland or somebody.
They did not prove that Zimmerman was not acting within self-defense. It`s the bottom line. True.
PINSKY: OK, Michael, have at it?
MICHAEL SKOLNIK, GLOBALGRIND.COM: (AUDIO GAP) did prove that George Zimmerman has lied and lied and lied. And this jury cannot trust anything he says. The only proof that George Zimmerman has he was acting in self high defense is his words. And his words cannot be trusted because the man simply lies.
TAAFFE: Mike, how did he get those wounds?
SKOLNIK: They were minor and insignificant, Frank. Both sides -- he hit on the ground, that`s not self-defense to shoot somebody.
TAAFFE: Michael, you know, I met you last week and I`m very impressed with you, OK?
SKOLNIK: We agreed he hit his head on the ground, Frank, twice.
TAAFFE: Who hit whose head? What did you just say? Who hit whose head?
SKOLNIK: George Zimmerman hit his head during a fight with Trayvon Martin twice. He hit his head. Does not mean you can shoot somebody in the chest.
TAAFFE: Is that consistent with the testimony of the forensic pathologist? And the eyewitness, Jonathan Good? I`m just saying --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no eyewitness.
SKOLNIK: Jonathan Good does not see him hitting his head into the pavement, he does not see it.
PINSKY: Very quickly, gentlemen. Brian, go ahead.
PINSKY: Hang on. Brian, have at it. Yes?
COPELAND: Here`s my question. All right, I have a son. My youngest boy is a couple of months younger -- a couple of days younger than Trayvon Martin. Same height. Same weight. I`m 20 years older than George Zimmerman. You know what --
TAAFFE: George was morbidly obese.
COPELAND: You know what? I`ve seen you -- I`ve seen you shout down people on this show, you`re not going to bully me or shout me down here. My question is how is it that he can claim self-defense when I`m older and I could take that kid without shooting him. Now, you may respond.
TAAFFE: OK. Let`s not forget that George was obese. He had a BMI over 30. Trayvon had a BMI of 22. If you know anything about body mass index. George is not a fighter.
COPELAND: Yes, I know what BMI is. And I`m not Chuck Norris either.
But in a fair fight I could at least restrain that kid.
TAAFFE: Excuse me.
PINSKY: Hey, Frank, can I ask something? What is it about this MMA stuff? Was he an MMA fighter?
TAAFFE: He went to a gym that it was an option if you wanted to take it --
PINSKY: Did he do it?
TAAFFE: No. He took dieting and exercise. That`s all he did.
COPELAND: He took boxing. He had boxing lessons. He took box.
TAAFFE: Not true.
COPELAND: That`s not in dispute.
PINSKY: I have a caller named Derek in Illinois. Derek has a question for Frank. Derek, go ahead.
DEREK, CALLER FROM ILLINIOS: My question to Frank is, just a yes or no question. If it was his unarmed 17-year-old son that Zimmerman killed, would he still be supporting him?
PINSKY: Frank, excellent question. And he also didn`t ask you to marry him like they did on Nancy Grace.
TAAFFE: Well, I`ll be one for one after this, I guess. That`s a good question. Would I feel -- would I feel maybe hatred towards the individual that took my son`s life? Yes.
But I would also have to trust in our only system that we know that works, throughout the world this is the only system that truly works well. And you know what? It`s not perfect but you know, it`s progress, not perfection --
PINSKY: Jenny, finish us up.
COPELAND: Would you be still be saying this if George Zimmerman is convicted?
PINSKY: That`s an interesting question, Brian?
COPELAND: You know, you`re saying it`s the best. It`s the best judicial system in the entire world.
TAAFFE: It sure is.
COPELAND: If George Zimmerman is convicted -- hang on a second, if George Zimmerman is convicted, will you be saying the same thing? Will you be saying that the system failed?
TAAFFE: You know, that`s a great question. That was posed to me by a reporter for ABC this week. And you know what, I shared with him, I said would I be disappointed? Yes. But you know what? I have to accept it just like everybody`s going to have to accept it.
PINSKY: All right. OK. All right. Jenny, take us home, please.
HUTT: I think the issue for me is, Frank, that you feel that George Zimmerman is beyond reproach. But on the one hand, he lied. He lied a bunch of times. We found that out in the closing statements. There were inconsistencies.
So, the guy is not without any blame.
TAAFFE: They were nuances. They were just nuances.
HUTT: Nuances? Frank, showing up with a gun, a fistfight with a gun, isn`t a mere nuance.
TAAFFE: The gun was concealed. The gun was concealed.
PINSKY: Hang on, guys.
Frank, stay in. He`s going to do battle with some other panelists. Thank you for this panel.
And later, of course, Shahrazad Ali takes on, guess what, the behavior bureau about this effect this trial may have on our country.
Back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DE LA RIONDA: Trayvon Benjamin Martin no longer walks on this earth.
How does he get the gun out? How did the victim see that in the darkness? One hand over my mouth, one hand over my nostril, I can`t breathe but I see it.
He`s got that third hand going for the gun. Or is he lying about that? He does not want to admit that he was following this innocent young boy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt.
Prosecution delivered an intense closing argument urging the jury to come back with a guilty verdict.
Frank Taaffe is still with us to take on yet another of my panels.
Back with us, Casey Jordan, Mark Eiglarsh, and Brian Copeland.
And, Mark, you had a question for Frank. Go right at it.
EIGLARSH: Yes, Frank. I`ve been very eager to find out what the defense team thinks of your media tour, every single night being on TV.
I`ll tell you, if I was representing Zimmerman, I would tell you two things. Number one, your loyalty to your friend is admirable. But number two, I would tell you the same thing 911 told Zimmerman that night -- we don`t need you to do that.
TAAFFE: Wow. I guess they would have said that last year, 17 months ago too, wouldn`t they?
PINSKY: So they`ve not said anything like that?
EIGLARSH: What are they saying? I don`t know, tell me what they say. Tell me what they`re saying about you going on every night.
TAAFFE: I haven`t heard word one. All I know is they`re doing a stellar job in that courtroom and I think that`s their focus one.
EIGLARSH: They are.
TAAFFE: Not me being on these shows, OK? I just wanted to share that with you, Mark, and I`m surprised you`d say that.
EIGLARSH: Hang on. Casey, I want to go to you. You seem to be responding to what Mark just said. Go ahead.
JORDAN: Well, I guess I just want to know what`s in it for you, Frank.
TAAFFE: I`m stunned you said that, Mark.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Casey.
EIGLARSH: Frank, hold on, Frank.
JORDAN: I really want to know, I --
EIGLARSH: Frank, let me clarify, Frank.
JORDAN: Hold on.
TAAFFE: I don`t know, man.
PINSKY: I`ve got to stop you. Let me explain something. We have these satellite feeds that make it impossible, that`s why the herky-jerky stuff.
I`ve got to stop you. We`ve got to hear from Casey -- go.
JORDAN: No, just to follow up on what Mark said, we give you an A- plus for loyalty, Frank. But the question is, what`s in it for you? Are you pursuing a book deal? I mean, is it 15 minutes of fame, ego?
TAAFFE: Let me tell you something -- I don`t have a dog in this fight, I didn`t write a book. OK, I`m going to answer that. That`s a great question.
As you know, I have received zero dollars for any performance or any show I`ve ever been on. The best thing I get is a sandwich and a cab ride. OK? I`m glad you brought that up.
My dog in this fight is to see this man who`s been maliciously prosecuted for the last 17 months walk free. That`s all I got here. There ain`t no book deal.
What, are you going to give me a book deal? I already got a marriage proposal.
COPELAND: Wait a minute, wait a minute, I have a question.
PINSKY: Brian, go ahead. Brian, go.
COPELAND: You talk about Zimmerman -- Mr. Zimmerman being may maliciously prosecuted. What about what you and several others are doing to a dead child, how you`re defaming this kid, dragging this kid`s character through the mud? I`ve heard you call him a thug, I`ve heard you blame -- I`ve heard you blame the victim in terms of this over and over in the most offensive way.
EIGLARSH: That`s a problem.
COPELAND: I heard you say on "NANCY GRACE," and that is that you said that he should have run home if he was scared. Again, blaming the victim. That`s like saying John F. Kennedy shouldn`t have been driving around in a convertible.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Frank.
TAAFFE: OK, let me ask you this. When we perceive something as a threat, do we run to it? Or do we run away? If Trayvon --
COPELAND: It depends. That`s why it`s called fight or flight. Sometimes you run away, sometimes we don`t.
TAAFFE: What does it depend on? What does it depend on?
COPELAND: It depends on what we see as our options.
TAAFFE: I want to ask you something.
COPELAND: It depends on our options for the best chance of survival.
TAAFFE: He said, these cracker punks get away with it, instead of --
COPELAND: Excuse me, George did not know that he said that. Ii fact, the world did not know he said that until --
TAAFFE: George said to the police that would be later played back in court. Number one was the 911 call where he --
PINSKY: OK, guys. Here we go. Play nice in the sand box as I always ask you.
EIGLARSH: I`ve got to clarify my remark to Frank.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Mark. Go ahead.
EIGLARSH: Frank, what I was trying to explain was when you come out and you say things like, Trayvon is a thug which you did. It`s completely unnecessary. It`s thoroughly inflammatory. It makes people not like Zimmerman. It`s unnecessary, Frank.
TAAFFE: If you had seen the text messages weren`t allowed in court, if you had seen the pictures that weren`t allowed in court, you know, I don`t know what --
EIGLARSH: He`s a dead teenager, Frank. We could --
PINSKY: Hold on, Mark.
TAAFFE: Mark, Mark, I`m not trashing him. You know --
PINSKY: Hang on. Hang on.
TAAFFE: I`m saying his past life was indicative of what he did that night.
PINSKY: Frank, Frank, I have to remind people you did lose two kids yourself and we`ve identified on the behavior bureau a couple of nights ago --
TAAFFE: I did not --
PINSKY: Listen, Frank --
TAAFFE: I`m not dehumanizing a dead child, OK?
PINSKY: You don`t intend to, I hear that.
EIGLARSH: You don`t intend to, but that`s what happens.
PINSKY: Right. And you identify very strongly with Zimmerman --
TAAFFE: That`s your parlance, buddy.
EIGLARSH: It`s not just me, Frank.
TAAFFE: That`s your parlance, Mark.
COPELAND: Frank, will you stop filibustering. We don`t have 60 Senate votes --
PINSKY: Brian and Mark, hold on a second. Frank, I have one question for you. And we`re going to wrap this up, and then, I want to thank everyone. I was going to say for playing nice, but I`m actually wrong about that. But I want to thank you for a good conversation. Thank you, Casey, for playing nice.
PINSKY: And Jenny, too. Frank, do you think Zimmerman wanted to get up on the stand? Do you think, Frank?
TAAFFE: What`s that?
PINSKY: Do you think Zimmerman wanted to get up on the stand? Do you think he did and he was -- turn his advice not to but he wanted to?
TAAFFE: OK. I think he did, because George wanted to cleanse himself before the jury and to sew up everything, all the loose ends. But let`s face it, he already testified on behalf of his testimonies that he gave to the Sanford police, under oath, without a lawyer. His testimony to the police and the prosecution played it before the jury. So, why would he get up there?
PINSKY: Got it. Guys, thank you.
Next, should we be worried about a post-verdict world? What might happen, whichever way this case goes? Miss Ali says, yes, we should be worried, and she`s going to go head to head with the behavior bureau.
And later, we`ve got breaking verdict news in another case we`ve been covering. It`s actually rather striking and important and we will give it to you after this.
COPELAND: If there is an acquittal, if he is acquitted and walks, I believe -- I hate to say it, but I do believe that there`s going to be violence.
SHAHRAZAD ALI, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: There`s an element in our so- called Black communities across the country, not just in Florida, who are not out there singing Kumbaya and we shall overcome. You know, people are not going to just accept this. And the police nationwide are getting prepared for what might be a problem.
COPELAND: What really bothers is why African-Americans have a tendency to burn down their own communities. I don`t get that.
ALI: Historically, Whites have come in to our community and burned them down, so don`t act like it`s a new idea that we set anything on fire. You all used to come in our community and burn them down, hang us, lynch us, burn us, tar and feather us, and then every time we object, you say, well, let`s don`t have no violence, let`s everybody calm down. If you all would leave us alone, we would calm down.
PINSKY: Time for the "Behavior Bureau." Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Jenny, you`re still shaking your head. It`s time for everybody to calm down, but Miss Ali will have none of it.
JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: Yes. No, she won`t and I kind of feel like she doesn`t go to a place that helps things get better. That`s my issue. Let`s make things better and nicer and hope for the best rather than inflame. Why all the inflammation, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Let`s talk about it. Samantha Schacher, host on "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network, Casey Jordan back with us, psychologist, Brenda Wade, author of "Power Choices," and of course, Shahrazad Ali.
Ms. Ali. OK. Let`s start with this. Let me just hear you out. I want the "Behavior Bureau" to kind of talk to you a little bit and see if they can make sense of why you seem so intent on being inflammatory.
ALI: Well, first, let me clear this up.
ALI: I would rather bash my own head on the concrete like Zimmerman before I`d go out to dinner with Frank Taaffe.
ALI: So, let me get that straight. Make sure he understands that.
PINSKY: Ms. Ali, let me say one thing. Let me say one thing. You say stuff that it`s so inflammatory it becomes funny to me, and then I laugh and I think, oh my goodness, that`s offensive to somebody. So, I apologize if I don`t come to people`s aid enough, I`m busy laughing. When you say stuff that is so over the top -- but go ahead, please.
ALI: Well, let me tell you how this country is helping this situation right now. Let me tell you what America is doing for the Black community right now to make sure that we`re all happy and singing do-da. What has happened is that there is a million, what is it called, a -- the march that they have -- the march on Washington. That`s coming up.
PINSKY: Oh. OK.
ALI: Just the march on Washington which was supposed to be a celebration of the one that happened in 1963. But because of what the Supreme Court has recently done, now, people are going to go to that march in greater numbers and they`re going to be angry. So, this Trayvon Martin thing is just another situation that Black people are disappointed on.
ALI: I`m not inflaming it. I`m asking them not to fall into the trap of rioting. I`m not being inflammatory. I`m being factual.
PINSKY: OK. Jenny, first, you were dying to say something.
HUTT: Yes. I was just -- because there you go again. You weren`t answering Dr. Drew`s question. You start talking about more bad stuff that`s going to happen. You have a platform here to ask everybody to behave.
PINSKY: Hold on. Casey, I`m going to go to you. So, we have a world today where there`s sort of a mob mentality that gets going pretty easily with social networking. I think social networking, I`m going to talk to Sam about that in a second, that may be a way to defuse this. But talk to us about how volatile things are these days and where this mob mentality comes from.
CASEY JORDAN, PH.D., CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, the mob mentality is --
ALI: Well, I think that mob mentality --
JORDAN: Miss Ali --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Casey.
JORDAN: Hang on, Ms. Ali. Hold on. We`re going to come to you. The bottom line is with the mob mentality, when people are angry and sociology would call it (INAUDIBLE), they have conformed, they have bought into the idea that the justice system will work. They believe that they know what the answer should be in this verdict.
And if it isn`t what they expected, what they were promised, then they feel just like the world has been turned on its head. And of course, it`s illogical that people riot and burn down their own neighborhoods, but they`re not working on logic. They`re building an expression of their outrage.
However, I would argue that you`re not going to see rioting like you saw 20 years ago with Rodney King, because today, we have social media, we have outlets. We have people who in front of a camera will say, here is why I`m disappointed, and they will react with logic instead of emotion.
I think Miss Ali is hedging her bets. She is predicting violence and mob mentality. She`s hoping it won`t happen. So either way, she can say, I told you so, if it happens, or, thank God they listened to me, if it didn`t.
PINSKY: Samantha, you agree with Casey?
JORDAN: Either way she`s going to win.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Dr. Drew, I disagree with Miss Ali. I think to assume that there`s going to be violent riots is racial fear mongering. What I believe, I`d rather make the assumption based on recent history. And I`m not talking about Rodney King. That was 21 years ago as Casey stated. I`m talking about, let`s look at Sean Bell back in 2008. OK?
He was murdered by police officers. They were acquitted. There was no violent riot then. Let`s look at something even more recent with the teenager in the Bronx whose name is escaping me right now, but a police officer shot and killed him. And yes, the police officer was indicted but then the police officer`s case was dismissed.
Even though there`s footage of the police officer following the kid into his home and we didn`t see any violence in those riots either. I think people are going to evoke change --
PINSKY: I hope you`re right.
PINSKY: I want to get Brenda here and then Miss Ali. Brenda, please, have at it.
BRENDA WADE, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: You know, when I listen to all of this, what I hear is that there`s this extreme point of view that there is Black or White and there`s nothing in between. And I ask myself, because what I`m always interested in is healing. My work with mothers who`ve lost their children to violence has really sensitized me that there are more victims than the ones who actually are laid to rest.
They`re the people who have to go on. And I ask myself, when are we, as Americans, going to grow up? So that we can understand other people`s point of view.
When people riot after a verdict that comes back when someone is acquitted again and I just heard Samantha try to name a few of the many, many, many cases of young Black men being killed by police and the police being acquitted, there`s no question that there`s a problem. My question is, how do we learn and grow so we can do better?
WADE: We`ve got to do better.
PINSKY: Yes, I agree. Thank you for --
PINSKY: Hold on, everybody. I understand. She said -- she was quite clear about that. What I want to get is Miss Ali`s response to that after the break. We will be right back.
HUTT: I`d like to think that I have more faith in people in every community, that they will not resort to violence should there be an acquittal even if it`s not the verdict that most of us want. I just believe in people.
ALI: I hope that black people don`t do that because I know that the law is waiting on them to put them in jail, to shoot them and injure them. So, I`m begging that dark and hidden element in our community, please don`t come out and riot. It`s not going to do any good.
PINSKY: I think to me Sybrina, Trayvon`s mom, is somebody who could be a stabilizing force in all this. She seems like a lovely woman. She could be our new Rodney King, really, if she calms everybody down.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt, and more "Behavior Bureau." Miss Ali, I want to show you a Twitter real quick before I go to you. Here it is. "Oh Miss Ali on Dr. Drew is not playing. She does have some truth to her rants." So, I want to give you a chance to respond to what Brenda had said before the break, so go ahead.
ALI: Well, first of all, I want to say that we`re in a country that has convinced Black people that voting is the solution to their problems. Recently, the Supreme Court has rescinded that idea, and now, they`ve changed the voting rights qualifications and requirements so that`s one problem you all got.
The other problem, the question was, where did mob violence come from? Mob violence came to America on the ships with the first European settlers and then it morphed into the Ku Klux Klan which was also bad for us, and later on, it turned into the gangsters. And so, we didn`t make up the idea of mob mentality.
We don`t do mobs. That`s really not true of us. What we are and I try to get my people not to do it is that we are reactionaries. And I keep telling them, stop reacting and do something for yourselves so you`re not depending upon people who don`t like you.
PINSKY: It`s really interesting to me. Casey, Miss Ali went right to trauma. She really wasn`t talking about mob mentality so much as the trauma that African-Americans have suffered over generations.
WADE: And when the trauma isn`t healed --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Casey.
WADE: OK. One of the things that`s really important is that when trauma isn`t healed, there`s a building-up of that anger, that hurt, that rage. And when something happens like a verdict of somebody being acquitted when it`s clear, the acquittal should have happened, that`s when it explodes into the open.
And there`s a long, long history of people keeping things bottled up. So, we`ve got to do more healing. I keep coming back, when are we going to learn? It`s time to grow up, America, and heal these problems.
PINSKY: I want to give Casey a chance to respond to it, too. Go ahead, Casey.
JORDAN: All right. Mob violence can be expressive violence or instrumental violence. You`re both absolutely correct. There`s a lot to be angry about in the past and the history. And Miss Ali is correct. I mean, there`s been a lot of oppression and not just to Black people. But, the mob mentality makes doing the wrong thing OK.
The real question is, is it to evoke change? Is it to raise consciousness? What`s happen in the last 20 years is that we now really have a high-tech world of internet, of Twitter, of phones, and there are ways to express your outrage that are socially acceptable and exhibit logic instead of expressing raw emotion that goes nowhere, that`s contraindicative of anything.
So, there are answers. The answer is not to throw bricks, but, to go ahead and say, you have your First Amendment rights, to say what have we learned from this? And the healing can happen. But not through violence.
PINSKY: Thank you, guys. However, I got to say, I watch violence acted out through social media every day. People feel very entitled to do a lot of nasty stuff on social media. It might go the other way. It might incite stuff just as well as defusing. So, we really don`t know. It is a new world. Miss Ali, thank you for letting us have at you a little bit. Panelists, excellent job.
Next up, my jurors are here. Who do they think has the edge on the case? What does it look like in the courtroom?
And later, the trial of the "you light up my life" heir is over, there is a verdict. There he is. We`ll give it to you later.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," our bold question, did George Zimmerman murder Trayvon Martin? Or did he shoot in self-defense?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are going to have our in-studio jury answer that question by the end of the hour. Not only that, but Ryan Smith is standing by with a jury in Sanford, Florida.
POLITAN: That`s "HLN After Dark" coming up top of the hour.
PINSKY: It is time to bring back my jury. Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Joining us is Brett Schulman who you met last night. He was our old Barney Fife from the Casey Anthony case and Mandy McGlothlin.
Brett, I have to first take issue with something you said last night. You told us that the lottery for the seats in the gallery was chaotic, but I`m hearing just the opposite, that it`s actually very orderly and well- managed. It may have felt bad to you because you couldn`t get in, but it`s not chaotic from what I`m hearing. Is that fair enough?
BRETT SCHULMAN, DR. DREW "JUROR": I concur. I concur.
SCHULMAN: But the main thing and the point that I was making basically was the fact that I don`t like just having a number and someone else selecting my name.
PINSKY: I understand that.
SCHULMAN: As you well know --
PINSKY: I understand. Well, you don`t do that. You end up with the human stamped that we had with the Casey Anthony situation where you had to put on a sheriff badge. But hang on, I want to meet new Mandy.
SCHULMAN: And by the way, I like that. I like that. I don`t want to stand in line at 4:00 a.m., be right there first in line. I don`t want to stand in line with 100 people and get my name selected.
PINSKY: And that Brett would be chaotic. Mandy, you`ve been in the courtroom for the past few weeks. Did the state do a good job when it`s closed (ph)? What did it feel like in that courtroom?
MANDY MCGLOTHLIN, AT ZIMMERMAN TRIAL: I don`t think they did. I don`t think they`ve proven their case. I think that they spent most of their time. The prosecutor today I felt like he spent most of his time trying to poke holes into the defense`s theory. And we`re used to getting that from a defense attorney and not the prosecutor.
And if I`m going to give someone charges for second-degree murder, I want a good, solid story to where I feel like I walk out of that courtroom putting someone behind bars for something like that. Give me a good, solid reason, instead of poking holes in the defense`s story. Give me your story.
PINSKY: Jenny, you have a question for Mandy or Brett?
HUTT: Yes. Do you guys think we might get a manslaughter verdict?
SCHULMAN: You want to take that one?
MCGLOTHLIN: I`m not sure. To be honest, I really don`t know. Today was the first time that I felt like we had to even consider that. So, I haven`t put a lot of thought into it. I feel like the state, that says a lot about how they feel about their own story right now. They`re having to go for lesser charges.
PINSKY: Got it. Brett --
PINSKY: Brett, I`m up against the clock. Did the state`s closing argument change your mind in any way today?
SCHULMAN: I can tell you without a shadow of doubt, if it was a championship fight, Zimmerman right now should be doing the happy dance. And, I really believe that the state did nothing in its own side to even be able to withstand any of the punishment that the defense team brought to them.
PINSKY: Thank you, guys. Mandy, thank you for joining us. I`m really interested in what it sort of looks like, how the jurors are responding. By the way, how -- Mandy, real quick, how did the jurors seem to you? Engaged? Interested?
MCGLOTHLIN: The jurors are very engaged. Every one of them. Juror four, she has really caught my eye. She`s on the front row. She`s the one that`s closest to the gallery, but when she comes in and sits down, she turns her back towards to the gallery and she faces the witnesses, the judge, and she`s taking a lot of notes.
She`s a lady in probably her 50s or 60s with glasses, but she stops taking notes whenever things are getting exaggerated or I feel like at the same time I think something`s being -- basically smoke blown in the mirror.
PINSKY: Got it.
MCGLOTHLIN: She`ll stop taking notes. And I feel like she`ll be the voice of reason in deliberations.
PINSKY: Got to go, guys. Thank you. I have a verdict to another case we`ve been following after this. "Last Call."
PINSKY: Keep it tune here at HLN because we will be on verdict watch all weekend. Now, there`s a verdict in another case we`ve been following, the trust fund kid Nicholas Brooks was, in fact, found guilty of murder tonight in the death of his girlfriend, Sylvie Cachay. I know this is a case that you were deeply invested in. And the woman found in the bathtub drowned, choked, murder.
HUTT: Yes. Not surprised. Happy that this was the conclusion.
PINSKY: There you go. Thank you to Jenny Hutt for joining us tonight, of course and all of you. We`ll see you next time. And I`ll see you tomorrow. We`ll do the show tomorrow night as well about the Zimmerman case. And, "HLN After Dark" begins right now.