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Zimmerman Trial - Murder, Manslaughter or Self Defense?
Aired July 12, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, George Zimmerman verdict watch. Was it murder, manslaughter or self-defense?
FRANK TAAFFE, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN`S FRIEND: Are you kidding me? The evidence and the witnesses have already testified under oath. I can`t believe you said that.
PINSKY: Sucker punch?
SHAHRAZAD ALI, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Back on why nobody said anything about what Trayvon was thinking, because the white judicial system don`t know what black people thinking. So they didn`t have any idea what his position was and what could have been going to through his mind.
PINSKY: This case has divide our case and the country. Is tonight the night they might see eye to eye?
Death threats, body guards, disguises -- what will Zimmerman do if he is found not guilty?
Let`s get started.
PINSKY: Good evening, everybody. Welcome.
My co-host, attorney and Sirius XM host, Jenny Hutt.
And coming up, Ali versus Taaffe. That`s right. We`re bringing Ms. Shahrazad Ali and Frank Taaffe together.
Plus, we bring in the behavior bureau.
But, first, the jury got the case today. But not before the defense gave a passionate closing. See what I mean. Take a look.
MARK O`MARA, ZIMMERMAN DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They dared to tell you that Trayvon Martin had no decisions that my client planned this? Really.
This is the guy that the state is telling you, get ill will and hatred out of his cop wannabeism? Really? Seriously.
George Zimmerman was frustrated. I wanted that one.
Unfortunately, she was a witness. And we had to deal with it.
DON WEST, ZIMMERMAN DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That time period is what I would like to concentrate on for a moment. Are you with me?
RACHEL JEANTEL, WITNESS: No, you lost me.
JOHN GUY, PROSECUTOR: There are no Rachel Jeantels on "CSI".
O`MARA: He`s deciding, I can get away with this. Really? Really.
I think he said it was 18 months in George`s enemy training three days a week. Rrrrr. Really? Come on.
The state wants you to believe Trayvon Martin retreated. Really? Really.
It was just coincidence that he was bashing his head on something hard. It was a drain box. Really? Come on. Really?
GUY: Should we not look into the heart of the grown man and the heart of that child? What will that tell us about really happened out there.
PINSKY: Jenny, today was a lot about the demeanor of the specific attorneys and O`Mara became Amy Poehler for me. It was like a "Saturday Night Live" skit, right? Am I wrong?
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: Oh, really, Dr. Drew? Really?
PINSKY: Yes, really.
HUTT: Yes, it was like that. That was a combination of Joel Osteen.
OK, I want to get an update from Mike Galanos. He`s host of HLN "NEWS NOW." Joining us from outside the courtroom.
Mike, you were inside the courtroom today. Tell us what you saw.
MIKE GALANOS, HOST, HLN "NEWS NOW" (via telephone): You know, it`s just trading of legal punches that you`re talking about. That jury was on the edge of their seats, Drew. They were taking notes. Yes, Mark O`Mara in that easy going-style connected. John Guy in his emotional self grabbing the jury by the heart, that connected as well.
But, you know, you have those moments. I was in the back of the courtroom. You talk about the emotion. You`re more than ten feet separates the parents of George Zimmerman and the parents of Trayvon Martin. But it`s like a Grand Canyon of separation. You talk about their views and what they want to have happen.
I thought Sybrina Fulton leave the courtroom at one point. She couldn`t hear any more about Mark O`Mara talking about her son. I was wondering, what was going on in her heart.
And then toward the end of the day, I see George Zimmerman`s father standing next to me, buying candies and sodas for everybody. And I`m sort of thinking, wow, the weight of the world is on you. Six women, the jury will decide your son`s fate and you`re trying to pass the time with a sheepish grin on your face having candy and soda.
Just the human horror and what`s going on inside of it, this was (INAUDIBLE) today, Drew.
PINSKY: That`s got to be actually grinding. Thank you to Mike Galanos.
On our panel tonight, attorney Mike Eiglarsh from speaktomark.com.
Michael Skolnik is back, editor-in-chief of globalgrind.com. He is on the board of the Trayvon Martin Foundation.
Crystal Wright from conservativeblack.com.
Brian Copeland, talk show host on KGO Radio in San Francisco, also author of "Not A Genuine Black Man."
Panel, I want to play you a clip from the closing rebuttal and get your comments. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GUY: Trayvon Martin may not have the defendant`s blood on his hands but George Zimmerman will forever have Trayvon Martin`s blood on his. The defendant didn`t shoot Trayvon Martin because he had to. He shot him because he wanted to.
Concrete -- you`re kidding me. If his head had been slammed in something like this, slammed, bashed over and over, he wouldn`t look like did he in those photographs. Didn`t Trayvon Martin have a right to defend himself, too?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Mark, what`s your assessment?
MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: Phenomenal job by both Guy and O`Mara. I`ve got nothing negative -- well, I do.
PINSKY: Really? Really?
I`ll tell you this, they both did the best they could with what they had. The only thing I would say about O`Mara, and he`s right. My colleagues will have a problem with me shifting the burden to the defense.
He`s right. I don`t love that at all. Leave it on the state. Ultimately he made it very clear to the jurors that the burden falls squarely on the state and they have, they did fall short of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that he didn`t act in self-defense.
But I`ll tell you, I love the way guy used emotion to bridge the gap between the lack of evidence that their case had.
PINSKY: Crystal, do you agree?
CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVEBLACKCHICK.COM: No. I agree with Mark that O`Mara gave a methodical closing. It was full of evidence. It humanized George Zimmerman. It said, look, this guy isn`t a racist. The evidence just isn`t there.
You had the lead investigator say over and over again that George was credible in his story. You had the forensic pathologist say George Zimmerman`s story was consistent.
Then we go to John guy who went from, I felt like I was listening to a sermon at times and then I felt like I was listening to him going into the movie voiceover. You know, .the movie voiceover, you must see George Zimmerman as a racist.
And I mean, he was not a racist. What was sad about it and yet provoking at the same time, I`ll agree with Mark, it was emotional and heart-wrenching. And -- but at the same time it was almost like you had the yelling at the jury that they have to find this man to be a racist.
PINSKY: But your friend Mike is here, Crystal. I`ll give him a chance to have at it. Go ahead, Michael.
MICHAEL SKOLNIK, GLOBALGRIND.COM: I think John Guy was phenomenal today. I think he gave one of the best rebuttals we will see in law history. I think it was a phenomenal, phenomenal job.
EIGLARSH: That`s odd.
SKOLNIK: I think Mark O`Mara made a big mistake. He made a big mistake, Mark. He made a mistake.
He said that George Zimmerman called Trayvon Martin an A-hole. Then he corrected himself. The second mistake he said there are no assumptions and then he started an animated video where there`s tons of assumptions, huge assumptions. There`s a huge assumption, the animation of how George Zimmerman got for (INAUDIBLE) section, 40 feet away.
PINSKY: Brian, go ahead.
EIGLARSH: I agree with you on that, the animation. But here`s the question --
BRIAN COPELAND, RADIO HOST: I thought that Mr. O`Mara did a really good job in terms of laying out reasonable doubt. But what was said about that little video game he said was true. I`m not going to allow the jury to go make assumptions. Yet that whole thing was assumptions.
PINSKY: Can we play that? There it is. We`re on the air right now. There`s the video you`re talking about.
Mark, what is the question?
SKOLNIK: Then there`s an arrow 40 feet, they just transport.
EIGLARSH: Let me say this -- I agree with Michael and I agree with Copeland that that was not the strongest choice, that animation. I never do it in trial. It essentially takes on a burden and the jurors go, well, we don`t necessarily agree that animation so we`re going to go with the prosecution. That is a risky move.
But the question is, where was the prosecutor`s animation? Where was the evidence to establish what really happened? What was lacking. Yes. Obviously, because Zimmerman might have killed the only eyewitness.
PINSKY: Jenny, go ahead.
HUTT: OK. So I agree with everybody that Mark O`Mara did a decent job and I believe we`ll get a not guilty. However, I did not love his folksy way. Also didn`t love when he did things like it doesn`t matter. Rachel Jeantel, is she 16 or 18, whatever. He made it like he did not know every word he was going to say.
He knew every word he would say and I find that a little bit sort of condescending in a way. I did not like being on the receiving end.
PINSKY: Crystal, I`m up against the clock. Crystal, take me home.
WRIGHT: Right. I think O`Mara was conversational. The animation was very effective. The most powerful moment was the four minutes of silence when he asked the jurors afterwards, now -- what did Trayvon Martin do during those four minutes? Why didn`t go -- why didn`t go home? Why didn`t he call 911? Powerful.
PINSKY: OK. Next up, Zimmerman family is going to speak out. We`ll hear from them. And later, Zimmerman`s -- you know him as the most vocal defender. He`s going to go toe to toe with one of his harshest critics.
Let`s see if we got a picture. It`s going to be a surprise. Can you get a picture up of -- oh, it`s Ms. Ali, of course.
Back in a moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O`MARA: They have the citizens on patrol program where you get a uniform, you get little yellow lights and you get to drive around and act like a cop. And he said to that opportunity to be a cop wannabe and a cop uniform, and cop car, cop lights, and probably a little cop computer in his car, or at least a cop clipboard -- no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back to my co-host, Jenny.
I`m just wondering what a cop clipboard is.
But George Zimmerman was not a wannabe cop, that according to defense. He wants the six-woman jury to believe that.
Brian, you got something to say to that?
COPELAND: Yes. Well, actually, I wanted to say, I thought the closing was good for the most part but there was one part that really stuck in my craw and I thought that was insulting. That was when Mr. O`Mara compared the sidewalk to a weapon, claiming that Trayvon was not unarmed because he used the sidewalk.
If that`s the bar, then we`re all armed. I`m sitting on a chair I could use as a weapon. Drew, you`ve got a pen you could poke someone`s eye out.
EIGLARSH: No, no.
COPELAND: You can MacGyver anything into a weapon.
PINSKY: Michael says yes, Mark, I know you say no, Mark.
But, Michael, why you`re saying yes. Why? We all have weapons, yes, right?
SKOLNIK: No --
COPELAND: Then we`re all armed all the time.
SKOLNIK: -- weapons outside.
PINSKY: Mark, go ahead.
SKOLNIK: I`m writing a letter to President Obama asking him for concrete gun reform.
WRIGHT: He`ll probably do it. That`s the pathetic thing.
COPELAND: You can have my sidewalk when you pry it from my cold dead hands.
EIGLARSH: Let`s talk about the law here in Florida.
EIGLARSH: Concrete, in and of itself --
PINSKY: We talked about it too much. I understand that.
EIGLARSH: Unless, unless --
PINSKY: Unless what?
EIGLARSH: Unless it is the manner in which you use it. Concrete according to the defense becomes a deadly weapon when you`re using to it smash someone`s head on the ground.
COPELAND: OK, but you can`t claim that Trayvon was armed. You can`t say that he was armed because he was using the concrete allegedly -- I don`t even believe Zimmerman, he bashed his head against the ground. Just because he was using the concrete, the sidewalk, that does not mean he was armed.
WRIGHT: Well, I agree with Brian. That the concrete, wait a minute. The concrete wasn`t effective. I thought it was kind of hooky and stupid.
So, you know, O`Mara gets up, lugs this huge piece of concrete.
PINSKY: I thought about a Bugs Bunny cartoon.
WRIGHT: He should have brought the dummy back.
PINSKY: -- is very different than dropping somebody on to that concrete.
WRIGHT: Right, exactly. I mean, Trayvon wasn`t dropping concrete on top of Zimmerman`s head. It was ineffective and hooky. I thought I would have been better to see the dummy back. I wanted to see the dummy again. I really want to see John Guy straddle the dummy.
PINSKY: I know, Crystal. You seemed to like that almost as much as Mark. You were not here tonight. But I pointed out, that was Mark Eiglarsh`s porn, for sure.
But go ahead, Jenny, you got something to say?
HUTT: I do. I thought the concrete --
EIGLARSH: My porn is very different.
PINSKY: I don`t want to know. Jenny, please.
HUTT: OK. I thought the concrete was an unnecessary demonstration. In the next breath or the breath before that, O`Mara said if it`s a rubber knife and he thinks it is a real knife, that`s good enough for self- defense.
HUTT: So it was unnecessary.
PINSKY: George`s brother --
WRIGHT: And remember --
PINSKY: Hang on, Crystal. His brother Robert put out a statement on behalf of the Zimmerman family. I want to read it to you. It says in part, quote, "as we wait a verdict -- as we await a verdict, we will remain hopeful and ask the public to remain peaceful no matter the outcome, though we maintain George committed no crime whatsoever. We acknowledge that the people who called for George`s arrest and subsequent trial have now witnessed both events come to pass.
It`s a little weird, Crystal. We acknowledge we`ve seen a trial. Yes, we acknowledge that. But, Michael and Crystal, Michael and Crystal, you guys seem to me to be back on your heels a little bit tonight. In other words, are you worried about what the verdict is going to be?
I`m going to let Crystal go first. Ladies first.
But where`s your head? You don`t have your usual fire. Did something extinguish that to you?
WRIGHT: No, I have my fire. I think George Zimmerman will be found not guilty. There is no evidence to prove that he was a race-mongering wannabe cop.
PINSKY: All right.
WRIGHT: I think he was an aggressive neighborhood watchman.
But I think the Zimmerman -- the reason why the Zimmerman family released this statement is because we know that since last year, Reverend Jesse Jackson, Reverend Al Sharpton and people in the press have been -- they want -- they seem to want riots. We have people on Facebook --
COPELAND: That`s nonsense.
WRIGHT: People are changing their avatar to black. They don`t even know what this case is about. But they`ve been told --
PINSKY: OK, wait. Brian, hold on.
WRIGHT: Change their avatar.
PINSKY: Crystal, I`ve got someone who did that.
Michael, you did it. Go ahead.
SKOLNIK: Of course I did. I know exactly what this case is about.
And the problem that gets so infuriated is comments that Mark O`Mara makes in the courtroom. Today, he said he did not belong in the neighborhood. He should have gone home. He fit the description.
This is nonsense. This is divisive. This is why people are upset about this case. Not just because of George Zimmerman. Because the continue non-sense that black kids should be profiled --
WRIGHT: Mark O`Mara did not say that Trayvon Martin did not belong in the neighborhood.
EIGLARSH: I got to defend O`Mara.
SKOLNIK: He certainly said that.
COPELAND: He absolutely said that.
EIGLARSH: Can I defend O`Mara?
PINSKY: Please, real quick.
EIGLARSH: Listen, one thing O`Mara did better than any defense lawyer I`ve seen is he was mellow. He wasn`t pointing the finger at people. He did it only a little bit. Less than I`ve ever seen any lawyer do --
SKOLNIK: Subtle racism, Mark, is just as bad as being racist.
WRIGHT: That`s right. How was he racist? He`s a defense attorney. How is he a racist?
PINSKY: Ryan, help me out of this. Hang on. Brian, help me out of this.
COPELAND: Well, actually, every time I watch the defense lay out parts of his case or make an argument, I go back to thinking of this time I went to the county fair when I was a kid. I saw this 5`6" woman twist and contort herself so she could fit into a 3 foot, 5-inch box which she did.
And that`s what this defense has done, twisted and contorted and all kinds of back flips to try in some way to blame this child and yes, a 17- year-old is a child, for his own death.
WRIGHT: Twisting and contorting, Brian? What are you watching? I`m seeing a lot of evidence.
And frankly what`s really sad is, you all --
COPELAND: What evidence have you seen --
WRIGHT: -- wanted a guilty verdict since last year.
COPELAND: Hang on a second. What evidence have you seen --
WRIGHT: Hang on. Hang on. Excuse me.
WRIGHT: Hang on. Finally, the last word here is that Trayvon Martin is dead. That is sad and tragic and George Zimmerman will have blood on his hands until the day he dies. And it is very sad.
But there is not enough evidence. The burden of proof was not met in this case.
And emotion? I`m sorry, folks. Emotion cannot drive a guilty verdict.
PINSKY: OK, got it.
EIGLARSH: That`s it. That`s the point.
WRIGHT: And sadly, the same people that want this conviction wanted O.J. -- but they jumped up and down when O.J. Simpson got off.
COPELAND: No, you know what - -
PINSKY: Hang, hang on.
Hold it. Hold it! Hold it!
Jenny, you`ve been playing nice. Please, let`s go.
HUTT: So, Crystal, you`re right. The evidence has to be supported in order to get a guilty verdict. Maybe we`ll get manslaughter here. It`s unclear to me.
However, somewhere between -- excuse me, let me just finish. Somewhere between being a hate-monger and being racist, he still could have done something wrong, George Zimmerman. He could have pulled the trigger when it was inappropriate to do so.
HUTT: So, whether it`s racist or not, you can`t be 100 percent sure.
PINSKY: We`ve got a lot of nods. Suddenly we`ve got a lot of nods. Let`s leave it at that, guys. We`ll play nice with the nodding heads.
Everyone -- Jenny, thank you for wrapping that up nicely.
You guys are great.
Next, the always outspoken Frank Taaffe. He is here with Ms. Ali. They are back.
Can`t we all just get along, ladies and gentlemen? Can we do that?
And later, what are Zimmerman`s plans if he is found not guilty? Will he still get some sort of a life sentence in point of fact? That`s after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Here we go. This is from @floridametsfan. "Doctor, I think Frank Taaffe and Ms. Ali should all go to dinner together."
Maybe we could arrange that, Frank, after we all convene in Los Angeles perhaps.
TAAFFE: That would be great. After this trial is over, maybe we can all start healing. How does that sound, Ms. Ali? I`m all for it.
ALI: Well, first, let me clear this up.
ALI: I would rather bash my own head on the concrete like Zimmerman before I would go out to dinner with Frank Taaffe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I`m back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Jenny, we`ve got to make that play nice.
HUTT: Yes, it`s not a love match.
PINSKY: We`ll see. That was last night. A dinner proposal from my two guests, Frank Taaffe and Ms. Ali.
We`re on the verdict watch here, the George Zimmerman, and we`ll be with you all weekend. Also back with us on this panel is Mike Eiglarsh, and joining us now, former prosecutor, Loni Coombs, the author of "Your Perfect and Other Lies Parents Tell".
Frank Taaffe, George Zimmerman`s friend, outspoken supporter, and social commentator, Shahrazad Ali, she`s the author of "The Blackwoman`s Guide to Understanding the Blackman."
So, Frank, Ms. Ali would rather bash her head on the ground than go to dinner. But don`t you want to ask her out?
TAAFFE: Yes. Ms. Ali, I would like to give you a personal invitation to my home at the retreat at Twin Lakes and take you on a personal tour and, you know, I`m a great Italian cook. If you like Italian food. And I`ll put you in charge of the drinks and dessert. How about Arizona tea and Skittles?
PINSKY: Oh, Frank, come on.
HUTT: Come on, Frank, what are you doing?
EIGLARSH: No, no.
ALI: Well, I tried to make it a practice --
PINSKY: Go ahead.
ALI: Well, I try to make it a practice not to go to dinner with members of the white citizens council.
TAAFFE: Explain. What is that?
EIGLARSH: It`s not love. This whole thing is really bad, Drew.
PINSKY: Let me talk to Loni. Loni, you`re new on the panel. You`ve been dying to speak to Ms. Ali. I want you to have a chance to give a question to either she or Frank. Go ahead, Loni.
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Ms. Ali, as they go now into the deliberation process and we are all wondering what`s going to happen, other than -- I think we all agree the result, whatever the verdict may be, gloating would not be appropriate for anyone, violence wouldn`t be appropriate for anyone.
What are some options you think that people could react to this verdict? Whatever it is that will be productive and positive and help people move forward. And learn something from this experience.
PINSKY: There we go.
ALI: Well, I`m very concerned because if it is a not guilty verdict, I`m afraid the police will retaliate on the entire black community. And if it`s a guilty verdict, I think that a lot of people are going to feel that it is not enough. He is not going to get a lot of time, whatever it is. He is not going to get a lot of time for this.
EIGLARSH: That`s not true.
AI think peel in the African community are going to think that it is just not enough and they`re not going to be satisfied. When you get people revved up like, this it is hard for a comedown. You know, unless, we`re going to have some kind of great big fireworks, a big party, do something, it`s going to be hard for people to come down from where they are.
COOMBS: Ms. Ali, what I`m asking you is -- let me finish.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
COOMBS: What I`m saying is, you`re a very intelligent woman. I understand those are your concerns. Having those concerns, what are your suggestions, what are some ideas, some options that you can put out there and suggest that people use and follow to learn from this? What are some positive things that you can see people doing to come out of this?
ALI: Well, I think that what we should do is to go over some of those other 2,000 murders that have been committed by black men against black men, by the police against black men and black boys. I think we should study some of those and see which one is the next one that we should address. This isn`t only the tragedy that has happened in our community.
So, I think --
TAAFFE: Ms. Ali, let me give you a quick history lesson. Please --
ALI: Start looking around trying to help solve those murders that we could continue on with this judicial idea that we have, and hold the courts accountable for finding the people that are killing us.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Frank.
TAAFFE: Let`s go back to the beginning. Right after the shooting, George is taken down to the station. And there were 11 Sanford Police Department members, the chief of police, and the state attorney all aggregately speaking, probably 150 years of law enforcement experience. They decided not to charge George Zimmerman with any crime because they couldn`t find probable cause. And it was only until Mr. Benjamin Crump --
ALI: Well --
TAAFFE: Let me finish!
TAAFFE: Are you going to yak or do you want me to talk?
PINSKY: Frank, please finish, and then, Ms. Ali. Go ahead, Frank, finish.
TAAFFE: Benjamin Crump wrote a letter. You tell me when I`m off base here. Mr. Crump wrote a letter to the Department of Justice soon afterwards when there were no charges filed against George Zimmerman. In that letter, he stated that the Sanford Police Department had malfeasance on behalf of Mr. Zimmerman had a was a former magistrate with the, somewhere in Virginia, up in Manassas, Virginia. That he somehow compelled the state attorney and the chief of police not to charge George Zimmerman with any crime.
PINSKY: All right.
TAAFFE: So guess what? They had no probable cause then and they still don`t have probable cause until you guys went out there and wrote the letters.
ALI: Well, I think --
PINSKY: Ms. Ali, go.
ALI: I think what happened in that since Zimmerman is going around passing for white and I think it`s the custom at all of those police departments (inaudible) white men are killing black males, then they didn`t want to deal with it, and they weren`t going to deal with it until there was an outcry from our community.
TAAFFE: The media never portrayed (inaudible). He wasn`t portrayed that way in the beginning
PINSKY: Mark, help me out here.
ALI: I would like to know the one (inaudible) of those eleven police officers you claim were there.
EIGLARSH: First of all, I think that a date between these two is a horrible idea.
PINSKY: How dare you.
TAAFFE: I think it`s a good idea.
EIGLARSH: Secondly. Secondly.
TAAFFE: How about when, well never mind.
EIGLARSH: Secondly, I think that this shouldn`t be, this shouldn`t be about race. It`s about whether the prosecution has sufficient evidence to prove that this wasn`t .
EIGLARSH: .self-defense, and they don`t and it`s that simple.
PINSKY: It`s not that simple though, guys, because it`s generating passions, Jenny you agree with this, all kinds of feelings about this case.
HUTT: Yes it is.
PINSKY: And I got, let me, let me just, I can pull up some Twitters here, let me pick up a Twitter.
TAAFFE: Hey, hey
PINSKY: Hang on.
TAAFFE: I got a scenario, I`ve got a scenario I want to through out to you.
PINSKY: Well I don`t want to hear it Frank, hold on a second.
TAAFFE: But I`ve got a good scenario.
PINSKY: Well perhaps. Look at this Twitter. I`ll put a Twitter up real quick. Their people just someone right off my page, just looking straight down at this, always speaking truth on Doctors, so there are people that feel the way Ms. Ali does, that`s what`s important here. So Ms. Ali, these passions that are being generated are above and beyond this case, are they not?
ALI: Well that`s because we have been here over 400 years and I know that you all don`t want to hear that, you don`t want to talk about that, and we feel that we have been abused and you all don`t want us anymore, we not good for anything, you got the Latinos now and they love America, we`re still angry, we carrying our grudges, you all can`t get comfortable with us, so this is the thing that whenever .
PINSKY: Who`s we?
ALI: . something like that happens, and one of us gets killed, .
EIGLARSH: Who do you speak for?
ALI: . we feel the same no sanctuary feelings. And it`s "Oh, master, you all done went and killed us again" And we feel that same thing inside of us, and it goes on and on and on. And then we get so frustrated that we want to do something.
PINSKY: You know what, let me speak here, I got to go, I`m up against the clock I gotta go to break. She is visually it sounds awful what she is saying, but she is saying that she is being, that there`s a trauma in her that gets re-visited every time something like this happens .
PINSKY: . and that`s legitimate. That is a legitimate feeling, it`s a feeling and that`s something that can be dealt with deal with it on the behavior bureau a little while, but first I gotta take a break. Frank Taaffe, Ms. Ali, stick around with us and this panel latter on, whatever the verdict how do the families of Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman move on with their lives. That`s what will talk about after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Let`s go, I want to go right out to a Twitter. This is from @justgiovan "Yes sir, this is my first time hearing Ms. Ali and I fell in love with her instantly she says what`s on my heart and mind. And I read that tweet because I want to pick up where we left off, cause Ms. Ali is saying things that sound hurtful, they`re concerning because I am afraid of what they will incite, but we can`t turn away from the feeling that is being evoked for some people who Ms. Ali is speaking on behalf of, just the way Frank you put people off sometimes the way you present things that are right.
TAAFFEE: Hey Dr. Drew let me bring up one thing to this panel.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
TAAFFE: To your venerated panel here. On the night George was arrested and the police did not find any probably cause .
HUTT: I hate you.
TAAFFE: . in order to have arrest you have to have probable cause.
TAAFFE: What the hell was in it for Chief Phil Lee (ph) and Norman Wolfingers,(ph) State Attorney, not to arrest him? What was in it? Why didn`t they do it, and say go hammer this crap out in court.
ALI: That Trayvon Martin was black, that`s what was in it.
TAAFFE: Oh please, come on you really believe that?
ALI: That`s what was in it.
TAAFFE: They didn`t even know George Zimmerman, and you just said he wasn`t a white guy.
ALI: Yes sir, I know that.
TAAFFE: You said he was a brown guy, or whatever, and you`re still making us pay for slavery today.
ALI: He`s down there, pretending to be white.
PINSKY: Let`s, let`s
ALI: He`s pretending to be white.
TAAFFE: You still carrying a bill for slavery. Why don`t you move on?
PINSKY: Hang on, Mark go ahead, Mark go ahead.
EIGLARSH: Let me address one thing, if we lower the burden of proof to get Zimmerman, cause a lot of us feel like he probably did something wrong but there`s just not enough evidence. Cause he killed the one guy who could provide the evidence. If we lower the bar, from beyond a reasonable doubt down to "well we really don`t like him so it`s more than a hunch so that`s good enough" then every future defendant, white, black, Hispanic, whatever, will suffer. The system will suffer, and it will be an ice (inaudible).
Ok Loni do you want to put a little coat on that?
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROCECUTER: Yeah, you know there are a lot of injustices that have gone on in our history and a lot of people feel that pain every day. But to try and right all of history in one case against one defendant as Mark said, "That`s a perversion of the criminal justice system" we have to focus on this one case and the evidence and the law as it stands for everyone. So that it can apply fairly to him and fairly to everyone else. There are other arenas to deal with these issues.
PINSKY: Okay. Ms. Ali.
EIGLARSH: Well said Loni.
ALI: We`re not trying to right all the wrongs in this one case, we`ve had over a million cases. A million black men are locked up right now in this country, so this is not the only case.
TAAFFEE: So move on, get over it.
ALI: I`m not saying everybody in jail is innocent, and everybody on the street is guilty, I`m not reversing either one of those. I`m just saying that if this doesn`t pan out, it`s just more proof to us to make us more discouraged to divide a judicial system that we believe has never been on our side.
PINSKY: Ms. Ali.
ALI: This racial profiling is not new to us, we live this every day and every night
TAAFFE: You guys got your arrest
ALI: Men, women, children, teenagers, this is what we live.
TAFFE: All you wanted was arrest, you got it.
ALI: You don`t understand what our life is.
TAAFFEE: All you wanted was an arrest, Sharpton, Jackson, we want an arrest, you got your arrest, you got your trial, now let`s wait for the verdict, which will be Not Guilty, ok sit back.
PINSKY: Frank do you think "Stand Your Grown" Rule needs to be changed.
TAAFFE: Ah, No, and I want to address that. The State of Florida had a TASK force that just concluded in February this year, where they did a 30 city tour and they came back with zero modifications here in this state. They said leave it intact, it`s fine.
PINSKY: I want to give Jenny a chance to ring in here, go ahead Jenny.
TAAFFEE: Hey Drew.
PINSKY: Yeah, yeah, hang on. Jenny.
HUTT: I just wan to, hey listen I think both of you are a little whatever, but Frank to mock or mimic the way Ms. Ali says police is really inappropriate and that upsets me.
TAAFFEE: I`m not mocking her
HUTT: I heard you.
ALI: Did he do that?
TAAFFE: That`s the way I say it, that`s the way I say it.
PINSKY: Ms. Ali do you think
TAAFFE: Police, police, whatever you want to call it.
PINSKY: Ms. Ali do you think, do you think the defense was able to connect with that all female jury, Ms. Ali.
TAAFFE: Police, police
ALI: No I don`t think they did, and I think this, I think if he get "Not Guilty" it`s gonna set a precedence in this country for a lot of white men to go and become members of neighborhood watch and claim "Stand Your Ground" in order to justify black men. So I`m really worried about this.
TAAFFE: Yeah, you`re gonna start it.
EIGLARSH: He didn`t argue "Stand Your Ground" in fact it was traditional self-defense. This isn`t about Stand Your Ground. He could have done that and he might have avoided a trial all together and this Judge would have granted him essentially.
ALI: Oh it`s about Stand Your Ground to us.
PINSKY: Ms. Ali the one thing I hear over and over again, and I hope people her this as loudly as I do.
PINSKY: That you carry trauma in your heart of 400 years and you keep revivifying that.
PINSKY: You keep re-visiting that and that breaks my heart frankly, because I can`t do anything to take that, it seems like
ALI: It hurts, it hurts every day.
PINSKY: You know Ms. Ali, I believe you and I wish there were ways that we can heal that. Again I`m gonna get a behavior bureau. That`s what my Behavior Bureau is gonna talk about I`ve just decided that, I want them to give some real suggestions. Because we said it to you yesterday, Brenda said it yesterday that healing needs to happen. And if you keep seeing re- traumatization, re-victimization in the world you get re-victimized, that`s what happens.
ALI: Listen, at one time all we wanted was an apology, the American government won`t apologize but once they apologize they acknowledge the wrong, and once the acknowledge the wrong them we have to get paid like the Jews, the Indians, and the Asians.
TAAFFE: Wow, that`s a stretch.
ALI: Everybody done got paid but us, we didn`t get reparations, we didn`t get nothin`.
PINSKY: OK, OK, I feel overwhelmed, everybody else feel like me? We were here to talk about one case.
TAAFFEE: 400 years of history, I`m out man, I`m tapping out.
PINSKY: So we`re all tapping out. Okay, but Ms. Ali thank you.
TAAFFE: That`s a wrap.
PINSKY: No it isn`t a wrap, but Frank your point`s well taken. Again, everybody I appreciate it. I want you to know that my Twitter`s been going off like some sort of Roman candle, I can`t even keep up with what the feedback has been, and Ms. Ali it goes in both directions, it goes all good and all bad for you. So I appreciate you speaking a particularism (inaudible)
ALI: Well that`s how it is. People either love me or hate my guts.
PINSKY: I`m bringing you back tomorrow night, I want to hear
TAAFFE: Keep it real
PINSKY: She is keeping it real, she`s speaking from her heart, but it`s making it`s affecting everything
EIGLARSH: It`s the manner in which she speaks, Drew.
PINSKY: Well that`s what Frank does that too though and it makes us, it puts us off
PINSKY: But Frank speaks about truthful things too, but the fact is, we need to listen to everybody, that`s one thing we need to do carefully here. Not just get put off by the way the messages are being delivered. Next up "If George Zimmerman is acquitted, what are his plans? How does he survive that?" And later behavior bureau takes on Ali and Taaffe.
PINSKY: It is time for the behavior bureau. I am back with my Co- Host, Jenny Hutt. Joining the two of us, Samantha Shocker, host of Pop Trigger on the young church network. Clinical and forensic psychologist, Cheryl Arutt, Psychologist, Brenda Wade, Author of Power Choices and Criminal Investigator Danine Manette, Author of Ultimate Betrayal. Alright we`re gonna get reactions to Ms. Ali and Frank Taaffe and I want to start with Ms. Ali and I want to start with Denine.
You all were sitting backstage listening to this, Denine did you get what I was talking about, that Ms. Ali was expressing something real it just was so inflammatory that way she was talking about it.
BRENDA WADE, PH.D., AUTHOR OF "POWER CHOICES": And I understand that, and that`s something I was trying to point out with Frank also, is that I understand that this your reality and it`s real and its where you`ve come from and it`s the basis for who you are, but you have to understand that when you make those types of statements, people in your target group are gonna get offended by it, and that`s just the way it is. And they are gonna act accordingly. But, it`s the reality, it`s our history, it`s the history of this country and whether people want to ignore it or don`t want to talk about it, it is what it is.
PINSKY: And yet Brenda, what I, what I`ve got going all crazy on my Twitter account is people on both sides saying "I hate her" "I love her". But, when they love her they saying that she`s speaking something real, that something is in those people`s heart right now.
PINSKY: My question to you is is that in your heart?
WADE: You know what`s in my heart, Drew, is I`m very clear that our differences were never meant to separate us they were never meant to alienate us. Our differences black white young old are differences were there so we learned we need one another and we have so much rolling so much healing to do to get to that point that we see differences and something we work with not something that separates us and a reason to hate one another. There`s a lot of spiritual maturity, a lot of emotional maturity, we need to bring. And I think Ms. Ali is not to blame or how she feels, I think she actually is speaking the experience of so many people.
PINSKY: Well clearly, clearly.
WADE: and we need to elevate our thinking.
PINSKY: What I want to ask you, our young people attached to that kind of thinking, you`re from a younger demographic, do you think young people will relate to what she`s talking about?
SAMANTHA SCACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well in my experience, all I can go from is when I see this yes I do believe that both Frank and Ms. Ali have their own truth, however, I feel like because they come from a place of pain and so much turmoil that they`re not looking forward, they`re not looking to evolve. And I feel like that that`s taking them steps backwards rather than to a more productive state as a healthy thinking.
PINSKY: Sam I`m gonna interrupt you I`m gonna go to Cheryl because Cheryl that is that stuck place of trauma. Trauma is a stuckness it keeps you stuck in a place where you see the world the same way over and over again. I don`t think people understand that that`s what Ms. Ali was talking about. Help them understand.
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Dr. Drew I am so glad that you framed it in terms of trauma and that stuck place. Trauma is losing the ability to know when we`re safe. Our fight or flight system I think this is the best definition of trauma. We are constantly hypervigilant, on alert and we lose the ability to know when we are safe. And that`s why when you have people .
PINSKY: But we see every threat as a revivification and reenactment of the past.
ARUTT: And it reactivates and we think we have to keep on guard and fight all the time to stay safe. And that`s why I was really struck in the last minute when Lonnie invited Ms. Ali to come up with constructive suggestions and it seemed really difficult for Ms. Ali to go there with her. She went back to 2000 cases of incidents of trauma.
PINSKY: There ya go.
ARUTT: it`s hard to move forward, and that`s where I really think healing has to begin.
WADE: Well there is something she said no that had healing it that I want to point it out.
PINSKY: Hold on Brenda, you`re going to have to hold it, I have to have you hold it because I have to take a break Jenny I`m gonna give you one chance to ring in before I do go to break Jenny go.
HUTT: Yeah, I just think that everybody has the right answer. It is about trauma and it is about revisiting it and hers. Frank`s issue I think is something else. Frank has a lot of anger.
PINSKY: No, he has the trauma with his son and he`s trying to protect Zimmerman from the same outcome that his son went through. It`s all revivification of the past and sort of denying, not denying, but seeing reality through a certain prism. Next up one of these people up here has, is fuming and set up with the circus" that`s what she said and now let`s find out who it was. Reminder HLN is alive all day tomorrow I will see you back tomorrow at nine o`clock that Saturday at nine o`clock and will be back after this break.
PINSKY: Back with my cohost Jenny Hutt and Behavior Bureau, Brenda I cut you off I wanted to let you make your point go ahead.
ARUTT: You know I was quoting Desmond Tutu as I talk about differences meant to show that we need one another and the reason there wasn`t a bloodbath after apartheid is there was truth and reconciliation and that`s really part of what I heard Ms. Ali saying. Is she saying "when do we get to the point we can speak the truth and there can be some actual reconciliation.
ARUTT: . And hasn`t happened in America yet.
PINSKY: And leadership. There was leadership. There was the lightning rod to lead people through it. I am hoping that Trayvon`s mom is that person she seems so lovely. She could be that person if she steps up and becomes set. Danine you had a tweak recently wrote "I`m fed up with the circus enough is enough! I`m FUMING over here!" I want to give you a chance to have added what he talked about there?
DANINE MANETTE, CIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Dr. Drew this has been a mess for like three weeks on the show. Nothing but fighting and yelling and screaming and name-calling and racial attacks and it`s just I`m sick of it. And I feel like we spend so much time talking about the problems. It`s important to talk about the past and understand where we came from and how we got here, but I`m really ready to start talking about some solutions. And try to figure out where were gonna go with this. Were all prepared for this verdict to come out and what`s going to happen if it`s not what we wanted to be. And I would really like to suggest because Trayvon Martin is going to be another Trayvon Martin down the road.
MANETTE: there`s been plenty and there`s gonna be more.
MANETTE: And I would just like to suggest to people to the forward thinking, intellectual, intelligent grounded stable people out there, when you hear people talk about all this madness that they`re gonna do it they don`t get their way behind this verdict you need to pull their coattail and you need to let them know that is not a response to something when you don`t get your way you connect the fool. Because all were gonna do with that is have more problems and more unbalanced and it`s just gonna be crazy and it`s just so unnecessary. So the stable people out there and there`s more of you than there are the crazy ones grab the coattails of those young kids on the French and let them know this is not okay. It is not okay to show displeasure if you`re not part of the solution then you`re part of the problem.
ARUTT: If I can offer one thing .
ARUTT: . can we talk about solutions those kids need to know what the alternative is. It`s one thing to say "don`t act out", it`s another thing to say "why don`t we all get together and talk about what`s going on". I`d love to see that in every school. I`d love to see that in Town Hall meetings where we get our own truth and reconciliation.
PINSKY: I`ll ask this, Samantha do you think social media is gonna be the place where this perhaps gets diffused or becomes inflamed?
HUTT: Well let`s look at what happened with social media when George Zimmerman wasn`t immediately charged. Social media was what helped George get George Zimmerman charged. We saw the call to action campaigns, we saw people organizing protests, peaceful protests, we saw the change.org petition being circulated so I think this is a perfect time for people, if they feel like they`ve got no control to get out there inflict change may be tried to advocate for policy change and I think people can make a difference.
PINSKY: There ya go. Thank you panel I`ve got a get out fast. Back after this.
PINSKY: Jenny thank you for standing by my side on this one.
HUTT: Thank you. There`s just my head spinning. Seating anger from both sides.
PINSKY: We`ll talk about it. We`ll talk more about it. Reminder were live tomorrow at 9 PM, HLN live all day Saturday it`s your place for the verdict. Thank you guys After Dark starts right now.