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After the Verdict
Aired July 16, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Tonight, Zimmerman verdict backlash. Peaceful demonstrations turn violent.
BRIAN COPELAND, RADIO HOST: I`m talking about widespread violence. I`m talking about mass riots. I`m talking about like what happened in the early `90s with Rodney King, when you got a case that appears to be so clear-cut.
PINSKY: We will hear from star witness Rachel Jeantel, the prosecution team, and a juror.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: So, you don`t believe race played a role in this case?
JUROR B-37: I don`t think it did.
PINSKY: Plus, Jodi Arias back in court. A witness who testified against her is here for her first interview. And she will be joining my behavior bureau.
Let`s get started.
PINSKY: Good evening, everybody.
Co-host is Samantha Schacher this week, host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network.
Coming up, you just saw her in that tape. Janine DeMarte, the expert witness, there she is, from the Jodi Arias trial, joins the behavior bureau.
Plus, Jodi will be back in court. We`ll tell you what`s up with that.
But first, everyone is still trying to process the not guilty verdict in the Zimmerman case. Take a look at this tape.
REPORTER: Oakland and Los Angeles have seen several nights of limited violence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want people to speak up in a lawful and a peaceful way.
REPORTER: One word to describe George Zimmerman.
ANGELA COREY, FLORIDA STATE ATTORNEY: Murderer.
MARK O`MARA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: How dare they not accept a jury verdict?
REPORTER: Do you respect this defense team?
BERNE DE LA RIONDA, PROSECUTOR: I`m not going to comment about them. I`ll leave that to other pundits.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN: You know, you wonder if it`s turned around and said, he wasn`t a murderer, then people would be saying, why`d you charge him with murder for?
RACHEL JEANTEL, WITNESS: I had said, "Trayvon," yes -- "Why are you following me?" You right. You can go. You can go.
COPELAND: All anybody was talking about was she came across as being inarticulate and being illiterate.
PINSKY: HLN`s Jane Velez-Mitchell joins us with the latest.
Jane, what do you got?
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST ATTENDED TRIAL (via telephone): Dr. Drew, the outrage really seems --
PINSKY: Jane Velez, are you there?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I`m right here. Can you hear me?
Can you hear me?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Can you hear me?
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, you can hear me, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Jane, are you there? Do we have Jane?
OK, I do not hear Jane. We`re going to have you speak, Jane. The producers will tell me when you`re done, because I hear nothing. Go.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, Dr. Drew. The outrage is growing. We`ve got protests coast to coast over the not guilty verdict. The vast majority of demonstrators have been peaceful. But there has been some sporadic violence. We`re talking about windows smashing and flash mobs in places like Los Angeles and Oakland.
The latest controversy, of course, with the key player in the saga, this mystery Juror B-37, a white female who used to own a concealed weapon. She spoke under the cover of darkness to Anderson Cooper saying she was convinced that neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman feared for his life in the moments before he shot teen Trayvon Martin dead. She also believed Zimmerman was the one screaming for help on the 911 call.
Now, critics say at times she kind of seemed to gush over Zimmerman, saying things like his heart was in the right place.
And the other controversy, Dr. Drew, she also referred to Trayvon`s friend Rachel Jeantel, she was on the phone with him before he was shot. She spoke in her in terms that some felt was condescending or even racially insensitive. Saying the type of life they live. The environment they`re living in.
So that has caused a lot of consternation and irritation.
PINSKY: Thanks, Jane, so much. Sorry about those technical issues.
On our panel tonight Mark Eiglarsh from speaktomark.com. Judge Penny Brown Reynolds, who has also served, prosecutor and defense lawyer. Brian Copeland, talk show host on KGO radio in San Francisco and author of "Not A Genuine Black Man." And social commentator Shahrazad Ali. She is author of "The Blackman`s Guide to Understanding the Blackwoman."
Now, there have been many non-violent protests across the country since the verdict. We`ve seem some violence in Oakland. And last night, a march here in Los Angeles got out of hand.
Brian, what`s happening here?
COPELAND: Well, actually, there are two things. Let me start with Oakland because I live right next door.
PINSKY: I can`t hear anybody.
COPELAND: There is an unfortunate thing that happens when there is a protest such as with the Occupy movement, as well as something we saw with the Oscar Grant protest. There is an outside element that comes into Oakland that really in a lot of cases doesn`t even have a vested interest in what the issue is. They just come there to cause trouble, to break windows, to set fires, to cause trouble, unfortunately, gives the rest of the protesters the overwhelming majority of whom are peaceful this black eye. And gives the city of Oakland a black eye across the nation.
Now, Los Angeles, I can`t speak to in terms of that. I can tell you that I do understand the rage and frustration that causes people to take to the streets. I mean, I remember when the Rodney King verdict came down from Simi Valley. I was in my early 20s. I`ve never been violated in my life.
I`m in a car, I heard this. I`m driving back to work, and I remember the first thing I said is, `I hope they burn this city to the ground." Now, I didn`t mean it, I did not mean it by any stretch of the imagination. The next day when it happened, I went "oh my gosh", I wasn`t the only one feeling that. The only difference is I would not have acted on it.
So, this frustration from feeling helpless and feeling like life or your particular life doesn`t have any kind of meaning or any kind of value, that you cannot get justice in the court, and the justice system of the United States, it can lead to that kind of reaction.
PINSKY: OK, guys. We have to take a quick break here. She was a memorable and controversial witness in the trial. Hear what she says about the verdict and George Zimmerman.
And later, what`s it like being an expert witness in a high-profile case. Someone who knows first hand joins the behavior bureau tonight.
We`ll be back after this.
DON WEST, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Is that when you and he began to talk and text frequently?
JEANTEL: Laugh around, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Say again?
JEANTEL: Laugh around, yes. Laugh around. Playing around, yes.
WEST: To meet up with some of his friends.
JEANTEL: We`re friends, yes. We`re friends. We`re friends.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Juror B-37, is this your verdict?
JUROR B-37: Yes.
Because of her education and her communication skills that she just wasn`t a good witness. I think it`s just everyday life, the type of life that they live and how they`re living.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host Samantha Schacher.
Ms. Ali, do you have a reaction to what that juror was just saying about Jeantel?
SHAHRAZAD ALI, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think that just shows her own racial problems. Because the woman -- the girl, the young lady, Rachel was not there to give her resume. She was there to describe what happened with Trayvon that night.
So, the woman was showing that she already had some preconceived notions about black people, and certainly this woman because she didn`t speak the English language. She wasn`t English. She couldn`t speak --I can`t even speak the English language and I was born here. (INAUDIBLE) one thing that makes sense, just because you hatch an egg in the oven don`t make it a biscuit.
PINSKY: Judge Penny, I wonder if -- I was listening to you carefully to make sure nothing offensive came out. That sounded pretty good to me.
But do you agree with that -- Judge Penny, do you agree with what Miss Ali is saying here that there was some racism creeping into what that juror was saying and she does -- she came with that bias to her judgment of Jeantel?
JUDGE PENNY BROWN REYNOLDS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: I don`t know what she came with, but I can tell you when you`re using language about "they," it causes suspicion. I think that we have an issue that there are two Americas here. And this trial has done a good job of really letting us know that there is white America and there`s black America. And how we see things, we see it very differently.
It`s impossible for me to say she`s biased, but I can tell you that it raises suspicions when you start to call categories of people "they." What did she mean by that?
But you know what? We give jurors a hard time. And being on the bench, I can tell you, when you get that jury notice, it`s the last thing you want to do. So, we`ll cut her some slack. But it does raise suspicion when you start saying words like "they."
PINSKY: Well, Ms. Ali, I`m going to go back to you. I was surprised you were shaking your head like you disagree to Penny. Do you?
ALI: Well, you know, I understand what the judge is saying. And what I want you to understand, Dr. Drew during this show is how difficult it is for black people to acknowledge that there`s any racism.
We suffer from post-traumatic slave syndrome. We`re afraid to acknowledge. And if we become successful, we get further away from being black and then we pretend that racism don`t even exist.
PINSKY: OK. Hold on. Brian, help me out with that. I want to understand what she`s saying. I want to -- because there`s always something that a lot of people can relate to what Ms. Ali, Brian, is saying. Help me understand it.
COPELAND: There is a feeling among some black dogmatists that if -- that when you get to a certain position if you`re African-American and you get to a certain position or attain a certain level of success, unless you wear the yoke and the chains of African-American enslavement on your sleeve at all times you have somehow sold out.
And I`m sorry. I think that is not --
PINSKY: Are you a sellout?
COPELAND: Going out -- there are some who would say I am.
ALI: Yes, he is.
COPELAND: I am?
PINSKY: Why is he a sellout?
COPELAND: Explain to me why I am. Because I don`t believe that slavery is the reason for all of my problems? I do believe there`s racism in America. That`s why I`m here. That`s why I wanted to go back to what that juror was saying.
I`m not going to give this juror a pass. Not by any stretch of the imagination. This juror said that she knew what was in George Zimmerman`s heart. Did not care what was in Trayvon`s heart.
This juror said that she didn`t need to hear George Zimmerman testify, didn`t need to hear him cross-examined. She didn`t need any of this because she knew what was in George Zimmerman`s heart.
This juror said that everything Rachel Jeantel said was not credible except the only thing she believed was that Trayvon called George Zimmerman, referred to him as a creepy ass cracker. That`s the only thing she believed. This juror had a complete and total bias.
And that`s why when you have a jury that is a mostly white jury dealing with an issue like this, you have problems, because they come from a world view that you can`t understand.
PINSKY: All right. Go ahead, Penny.
REYNOLDS: Dr. Drew, let me explain something to you. You know, it`s wonderful during times like this for people to want to race bait. I believe absolutely that race was a part of this.
What I`m saying is when the juror said "they," it raises suspicion. To be able to say that she was biased, she absolutely. She voted for him to be not guilty. So absolutely she was seeing things from the perspective.
I`m here today because I absolutely -- although I am a judge and I respect the system we have -- I do not support this verdict. But for us to just label people and race bait, I have a problem with that. I think this is an opportunity for --
ALI: That`s not race baiting.
REYNOLDS: -- for the first time to be able to speak about race --
ALI: This is not the first time.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Listen --
REYNOLDS: -- in an intelligent manner without being bipolar and polarizing people.
ALI: Where have you been? You need to recuse yourself.
SCHACHER: Really quickly, Penny.
PINSKY: Sam, and then, Mark.
SCHACHER: Really quickly, Penny. I agree with you. To say that race is not involved, I think is absolute stupidity.
However, this case is racial.
PINSKY: And, Sam --
PINSKY: Sam, let me just say whether it`s involved in the case or not is sort of moot because it has evoked a lot of feelings about race. It`s worth discussing. Go ahead.
SCHACHER: I agree. I also want to say rather than saying it`s white America/black America and I agree with everything involved, but can we also present it as intolerant America and tolerant America? Because there`s a lot of people here that are white --
SCHACHER: -- or black that may also suffer some -- from some racial tendencies and they may be looking at this case whether they`re black or white, whether they`re supporting social injustices.
PINSKY: Sam, Judge Penny.
REYNOLDS: I agree with what you`re saying. But let me tell you, there are two distinct views about this case that black people see things one way. The heart and soul of the black community is hurting because of this case. And I think that we are not monolithic just like white people are not monolithic. We don`t all think alike.
But I know that for certain, the soul of the black community is hurting because of this. And in many areas it should be the soul of America that is hurting, because Trayvon represents all of our children, black children and white children. But race-baiting is not what we should be doing right now.
SCHACHER: I agree with you.
REYNOLDS: What we should be doing is have an intelligent conversation. Why is it so hard for us to talk about race in America? Why are we afraid of it? We don`t need to be afraid of it.
PINSKY: I`m with you, my dear, a thousand percent.
REYNOLDS: This is the time to put the cards on the table and talk about it.
PINSKY: But I got to give Mark a chance to weigh in here.
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Thank you, Drew. I thought somehow I was on your bad list.
First, let me just say that if you change all six of the jurors, you make them African-American, you don`t have any more evidence to show what happened during the initial confrontation. Thus, Zimmerman still gets self-defense protection and anyone who`s laying down the way he was with Trayvon on top, you`ve got jurors whatever color they are, have to conclude legally that he reasonably feared death or great bodily harm under the law.
The court of public opinion, in fact, they could crucify him. But, legally it had to be the verdict. To condemn these jurors to me is irresponsible and unfortunate.
COPELAND: Let me clarify something. First of all, I didn`t believe there should have been an all black jury. I just believe there should be diversity to the jury.
And if, in fact, the defense didn`t believe that there would be an issue with having people of color on the jury, they would not have done everything they possibly could to make sure that there were none. That was not a jury that was representative of George Zimmerman`s peers, not by any stretch of the imagination. And in fact the verdict very well may have come out the same. But --
FRANK TAAFFE, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN`S FRIEND: Sure was, man. What are you talking about?
COPELAND: But if you have somebody who comes at it from a world view where at least they can fathom that there was another -- there could have been another explanation in something that could be put in the table for discussion, not Trayvon Martin.
PINSKY: Brian, that was actually Frank Taaffe`s voice coming into this conversation. That was scary.
Ms. Ali, you want to respond to Penny. Go.
ALI: Well, I wanted to say that why is it that every time somebody black talks about the real condition of the situation of racism in this country, y`all say they race baiting. Because they don`t say out of one side of their mouth, yes, there`s racism. And on the other side say, no, it`s not a racist case. Because I don`t talk both sides of my mouth, I`m race baiting -- that`s not true.
I`m just giving the truth of what our situation is and what we feel and what we have gone through in this country. This isn`t the first time we could deal with a situation like this.
You on the bench. You tell me. Are we getting justice?
REYNOLDS: The more things change, the more things stay the same, Ali.
COPELAND: Yes, amen, amen.
REYNOLDS: And this is an incredible opportunity --
ALI: That`s right. That`s absolutely right.
REYNOLDS: -- for America to be intelligent about it and have a discussion, honey. Like no other.
We owe it to the family. We should take the lead from the mother and father who are walking with dignity.
Here we are about to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the march on Washington, and we`re still dealing with the same issues.
PINSKY: Penny, what did you call it? The soul of America and black America is hurting and the soul of America should be hurting, was that your language? Say that again.
REYNOLDS: There is a hole in the soul of black America. And I believe that that hole should be the soul of all of America.
PINSKY: Yes, but we need to talk about what that hole is and what it feels like and where it comes from. And people don`t have that conversation very much.
Ms. Ali has brought it up, and I commend her for bringing it up the way she has, because people who don`t feel that hole don`t hear you when you say that. They don`t hear it properly. And they need to hear people`s hearts are hurting. That`s at the core here.
Thank you, panel. I got to go.
Next, star witness Rachel Jeantel calls the verdict B.S. You know, my next guest, in fact, he bled through on this panel. His voice, we caught on this part of the show. There he is.
And later, Jodi Arias is back, in stripe, chained and surrounded by armed guards. I want to know why. When will the next jury decide life or death for her?
Back in a moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEANTEL: Let`s be honest. Racial. If he was white -- if Trayvon was white and he had a hoodie on, would that happen?
PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST: The jury never really discussed race as being a motivating factor here.
JEANTEL: Remind you. They`re white. Well, one Hispanic.
ALI: I would like them to tell me what case white people think is about race, because white people always say this isn`t about color. This isn`t about race. Nothing is about race according to white people in America.
JEANTEL: I told Trayvon might have been a rapist. Parents need to stop acting dumb. If you`re going to tell your child when he fears a stranger, oh you tell your child run away try to find somebody. That`s not what Trayvon was doing?
PINSKY: Back with my co-host Samantha Schacher. That, of course, was Rachel Jeantel, Trayvon Martin`s friend.
The George Zimmerman trial reopened, I guess I`ll say wounds, exposed racial divides, brought the topic up, whether the case itself was about race or not, certainly race issues have been evoked.
Do you agree, Sam?
SCHACHER: I agree. I think it`s racially charged, politically charged, emotionally charged.
PINSKY: Yes, emotionally charged -- that`s kind of where I want to keep, because I think we hear each other when we talk about the emotional charge that race issues trigger.
Back with social commentator Shahrazad Ali, attorney Mark Eiglarsh, radio host Brian Copeland.
Joining us, George Zimmerman`s friend and support, Frank Taaffe.
Now, Frank, you don`t think Rachel made good points about race, do you?
TAAFFE: You know, I got a problem with Rachel. And here`s the deal. Shellie Zimmerman, George`s wife, was arrested for lying under oath. And yet Rachel Jeantel on two separate occasions, under oath at the state attorney`s office, perjured herself.
But yet we want to talk about a dual start here. Yet Shellie was arrested for perjury, but Miss Rachel or Miss Precious or --
PINSKY: Hey. Easy, easy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s racist.
SCHACHER: Come on, Frank. Come on.
TAAFFE: Hold on. OK. Hold on. Let me finish and make my point. Shelly was arrested for perjury.
And Miss Diamond Eugene Rachel Jeantel went on record and said that she did lie under oath. But yet she wasn`t arrested? Come on. I want to hear your response. Why wasn`t she arrested?
PINSKY: Ms. Ali then Mark.
TAAFFE: Perjury is perjury. Perjury is perjury!
ALI: I want to respond.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
TAAFFE: Oh, she didn`t lie?
ALI: I want to respond to that.
TAAFFE: Go ahead. I want to hear it.
ALI: As black people, we are a victim of educational fraud. Every history book in this country is a lie.
TAAFFE: She lied. She`s a liar. She lied.
ALI: Everything has been a lie. Don`t talk to me about lying, because y`all are the biggest liars on the planet.
TAAFFE: Trayvon was going back to whoop that ass!
PINSKY: OK, hold on.
TAAFFE: She said, Trayvon was going back to whoop that ass!
PINSKY: Frank, hold on a second. Mark, help me.
EIGLARSH: First, I have to find something intelligent to respond to. I think I heard --
PINSKY: Frank is saying he`s aware of some perjury that was not prosecuted.
EIGLARSH: All right. I`ll respond to that. Fair enough. First of all, welcome to my world. For 21 years, almost every single day in every single courtroom in depositions and hearings, there`s somebody who lies. If the prosecutor prosecuted every person that did that, the system would - -
Shelly lied once, Mark. She was arrested.
EIGLARSH: I`m making a point. I did not interrupt you. Could you just stop for a second let me make my point?
EIGLARSH: The prosecutors obviously select which case they want to bring and which they do not. They have that ability to do so. Is it fair? No, it`s not. Frank makes a fairly valid point.
TAAFFE: Thank you, Mark.
PINSKY: Brian, what do you think about that?
COPELAND: Well, attorney friends I know and in cases I had a chance to look into, he`s absolutely right. In every case, I mean, you look at divorce cases. Look at civil case. Somebody`s always lying.
TAAFFE: We`re talking about this one.
COPELAND: This particular case -- you know what, Frank? Can you stop auditioning for a FOX gig for ten seconds and let somebody else talk? It told you you`re not going to bully me.
PINSKY: Go, Brian.
COPELAND: Bottom line here is --
TAAFFE: That`s the way you feel, man.
COPELAND: I find it offensive that frank says it isn`t about race. He race baits every chance he gets. I`ve seen your Twitter account.
TAAFFE: You guys bring up the race.
COPELAND: Excuse me, Frank. I see your -- I`ve seen your Twitter account. I have seen -- can I say something here? Again, you`re not going to shout me down.
TAAFFE: I want to hear what you`re saying.
COPELAND: I have seen your Twitter account. On your Twitter account, you called African-Americans cotton pickers. On your Twitter account, you have told black people --
TAAFFE: You don`t know what you`re talking about. You don`t know what you`re talking about.
COPELAND: You told people to stop talking because you`re going to go --
TAAFFE: Hey, bro. You don`t know what you`re talking about, bro.
PINSKY: What do you mean, Frank? Was that on your Twitter account or not?
TAAFFE: No, it was not.
COPELAND: I have it. I have a printout. I have the printouts.
TAAFFE: I don`t care what you`ve got, man. You ain`t got it. This ain`t a court of law, buddy. OK?
PINSKY: Hold on, Frank.
TAAFFE: Let`s bring it, bro.
PINSKY: Ms. Ali, you`ve got your hand held up nicely there. I want to go to you.
ALI: Yes, I wanted to go back to the lying part.
ALI: We as black people have been victimized by educational fraud. Every history book in this country is a lie about us. It doesn`t tell the truth of what we have accomplished. It doesn`t tell the truth about who built what. We built the White House. We laid out Washington, D.C.
Black people have done a lot of things and we do not get recognition of credit.
TAAFFE: Hey, Ms. Ali, it`s called the 13th Amendment. It was approved by Congress on January 31st, 1865, the 13th Amendment.
ALI: It`s called the cave. Some of y`all we should have left in it.
TAAFFE: If I`m lying, I`m dying.
PINSKY: Ms. Ali, what is it you`re referring to specifically?
COPELAND: We can only hope, Frank.
PINSKY: Ms. Ali, what specific, because I want to go --
TAAFFE: 1865, 13th Amendment, 1-3. Look it up.
PINSKY: Hang on. I kind of disagree with you. I think people are doing every effort to be accurate about this.
ALI: No. We have never had an accurate history in America. That`s one of the problems that we are angry about. The books tell lies.
PINSKY: Let me interrupt you and just say maybe the mythology of America is wrong. The history books, the genuine history books are probably close to right. Close. I mean, you`re right, history has its own distortions.
PINSKY: But our mythology is wrong. I would agree with you on that.
EIGLARSH: Can I ask Miss Ali a question?
PINSKY: Yes. Go ahead, Mark.
EIGLARSH: If we`re talking about history books being inaccurate, I would like to ask you one question. I need no judgment, and all I need is a yes or no. I want to ask you about your book, Miss Ali.
ALI: I don`t have to answer your question.
EIGLARSH: The book that you have been trying to sell -- well, I`m going to ask it and then we`ll just see. The book that you`re trying to sell on this show --
ALI: The book I`ve been trying to sell?
EIGLARSH: You say the following. Black women have smaller brains than black men. And secondly, if a black woman ignores the black man`s authority, the black man needs to take control and slap her in the mouth. Yes or no, is that from your book?
ALI: No, I think he ought to slap you in the mouth. But here`s the point.
TAAFFE: Sounds like O.J. to me.
PINSKY: Hey, Frank. Please, man.
PINSKY: Miss Ali, go. Go ahead.
ALI: Let me answer.
EIGLARSH: Is that a yes or no?
ALI: -- talks about the fact that the man`s brain is 10 percent larger than the female`s brain.
PINSKY: Yes, but brain size doesn`t correlate with intelligence, guys.
PINSKY: Listen, guys. We`re getting way off topic here.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: This is so off topic. Can we focus on the case here? This is ridiculous, you guys.
PINSKY: Well, it`s not ridiculous because we started this evening talking about --
PINSKY: -- talking about the --
SCHACHER: It was a yes or no question.
PINSKY: Well, I`d rather attack the male brain. I think that`s an easier case to make than where we`ve gone here. So -- but the fact is we started this evening trying to talk about a meaningful conversation --
ALI: -- you don`t pay for that, Mark.
PINSKY: -- about the feelings associated with race. And that`s where I`m trying --
EIGLARSH: I guess, that`d be a yes, those are your words. You advocate smacking in the mouth? I`m just asking. Yes? I didn`t get a yes or no.
ALI: I advocate sending you back to the cave.
PINSKY: Fair enough. Fair enough.
ALI: I advocate sending Mark back to the cave along with Frank.
BRIAN COPELAND, RADIO SHOW HOST: You two talk amongst yourselves.
PINSKY: Brian, would you like to take me home.
PINSKY: Brian, I`d give you a chance to take me home. Brian, go.
COPELAND: Opportunity to take you home. Bottom line here is that if you want to look at this case and what it`s done to America, it has given us an opportunity to discuss racial relations in a real honest and truthful manner. Now, whether or not we can get above all of the yelling and all of the emotion and all of -- that remains to be seen. But there is an opportunity.
PINSKY: I agree. And if you see how even we try to have this conversation and we get off the rail pretty easily. I apologize for that. But I still think it`s worth the effort of trying to have these conversations. Thank you, panel.
Next up, very excited to welcome expert witness from the Jodi Arias case, Janeen Demarte. She`s here exclusively. She joins our "Behavior Bureau." There she is.
And later, Jodi Arias back in court today. When will that trial end? More after this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Physical evidence is consistent with Mr. Martin being over Mr. Zimmerman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s a very long time to be involved in any kind of physical altercation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are going to be at a minimum stunned.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Already you`re at least 45 degrees where you are because he`s laying flat on the ground.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right, but if Trayvon Martin --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I reach the opinion that he told lies.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did find inconsistencies of what she was saying.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She (ph) professed to being a virgin, and that was a lie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t believe that she was in a fight or flight state, that there was memory loss as a result of that.
PINSKY: Time for the "Behavior Bureau." Welcoming back my co-host, Samantha Schacher. So, what is it like to be an expert witness in a high- profile case? What makes a good witness? One woman who knows joins the "Behavior Bureau" with us tonight. Psychologist, Janeen Demarte. She testified for the prosecution in Jodi Arias` trial. This is her first interview.
We will not be discussing Jodi Arias. Obviously, her ethical obligation bars her from doing so. But she will be commenting on the Zimmerman trial. I just want you to know, personally, Dr. Demarte, that when you came on the stand, I went that is an expert witness. I said Laviolette, wonderful advocate, but you are an expert witness. So, I want to talk a little bit about expert witness what that`s like.
Show of hands first. How many of us in the panel have been an expert witness? Show of hands, everybody. Demarte, I know you have. Cheryl you have. So, just the three of us. OK. Three of us. It`s a -- when I used to do it, I got very sort of -- I didn`t find it enjoyable. I can just imagine now with television and social media and stuff, it must be awful to be on that hot seat.
But let`s discuss. Joining us, attorney and Sirius XM radio host, Jenny Hutt, psychotherapist and HLN contributor, Tiffanie Davis Henry, forensic and clinical psychologist, Cheryl Arutt. Janeen, I`ll go to you first. How will the lives of those who were witnesses in this case, how are they likely to be affected?
JANEEN DEMARTE, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: Their lives will certainly change based on this trial.
PINSKY: They`ll end up on a behavior bureau somewhere?
DEMARTE: Say it again?
PINSKY: I said they`ll end up on a behavior bureau --
DEMARTE: Yes, absolutely.
PINSKY: So, will it change because they`ll do more expert witness work or they can`t go into public without people assaulting them or they can`t open their Facebook account or Twitter without a whole bunch of commentary?
DEMARTE: Yes. These cases are so much passion that`s involved in it. There`s so many people that their lives are wrapped up in it. And so, getting that kind of recognition that they`ve never received before is certainly going to be a change in their lives.
DEMARTE: Jenny, go ahead.
JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY: I`ve got to tell you, Janeen, I`m a huge fan of yours. When you did take that -- I just adore you. And here on TV tonight, you are ridiculously gorgeous.
DEMARTE: Thank you.
HUTT: So, I hope you feel good about yourself because you should.
DEMARTE: Thank you.
HUTT: How taxing was the whole experience for you during the moment, during the time?
PINSKY: If you`re able. I mean, are we getting -- I don`t know if we`re getting too close to your case there. But go ahead. You can answer that.
DEMARTE: I appreciate that. Yes. It was very taxing. It was extremely stressful. There are a lot of factors that play into that. First, just being an expert witness, there is a lot of responsibility that comes into that. And I take it very seriously. In addition to that, there`s an inherent risk that comes along with these high-profile cases. Like I said, people are passionately wrapped up in this. And, it can be frightening sometimes.
PINSKY: Now, Cheryl, I remember back when we were talking about Jodi Arias, you and I were doing a lot of analysis of what she was -- her behavior was and what the context of her -- you know, what she did was. And we start to talk about borderline personality and sociopathy very early, remember that?
CHERYL ARUTT, PH.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, I certainly do. And I just really want a chance to just say to Dr. Demarte, when you got up there on that stand, I thought to myself, that`s a forensic psychologist.
PINSKY: Right. That`s what I thought, too.
ARUTT: Boundaries, professional. You did a great job under tough circumstances. PINSKY: Now, again, I think we`re all getting too close to her case. We`re very excited to have her and stuff, but I want to bleed over to Zimmerman and say Janeen, observing now, we`re putting you in the position you`re in when you were on the stand. Looking at Zimmerman, thinking about the acts he was involved in, do you have thoughts from the distance sitting in that chair tonight thoughts about his character?
DEMARTE: I think it`s hard to make any kind of determination about someone`s character based on snippets from TV. I certainly see someone who was not responsive in many ways like when the verdict was read, which I think could be shocking for many people. But this is a very stressful situation. And people`s personalities and the way they respond to things change in these kinds of moments.
PINSKY: Now, Tiffani, I want to go to you. I know during that last conversation we had during that last panel, you were dying to chime in. I`m going to give you a chance now to address this issue with Zimmerman or take you back to that last panel if you had something you were dying to say.
TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, PH.D., PSYCHOTHERAPIST: You know what, Dr. Drew? I don`t think I can go back. I really don`t -- I don`t even want to go back there. But I will say to Dr. Demarte, there`s got to be an inherent risk, I think, when -- for anybody that`s testifying in these types of trials and I wonder what you would tell whether it`s another witness or even someone on trial how to handle the aftermath -- excuse me.
How you handle the aftermath after everything is over, after everything is said and done. How do I go back to my regular everyday life, life as I knew it before?
PINSKY: Tiffanie, I would add the jurors to that panel of people that are affected by this trial.
HENRY: Oh for sure. For sure.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Dr. Demarte.
DEMARTE: I would have to say that my best advice would be to go back to your normal life but just add a level of protection to yourself in a manner that you have to be careful about things that you say or do and overall just safety. In addition to just doing your typical work, go through your typical life as you normally did.
But, people are going to be very curious about your experience in it. And I think it`s important to maintain confidentiality when you need to if you`re in that kind of role, or it`s your right to talk about it or not. You shouldn`t feel forced to talk about it.
PINSKY: Thank you, guys --
PINSKY: Got to take a break. Next up, more of the juror who acquitted George Zimmerman. She was giving the interview with -- there it is -- with Anderson Cooper. We will break it down on the "Behavior Bureau."
And later, when will we finally know what finally happens to Jodi Arias? Talk about it after this.
VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," more of my interview with prosecutors. Parts that you have not seen yet and that they haven`t seen yet.
RYAN SMITH, HLN ANCHOR: All right. And then, our in-studio jury is going to tackle the bold question, did prosecutors ever have a chance? Such an interesting position these prosecutors were putting in this case.
POLITAN: Yes. You have witnesses going south on them, some evidence disappearing. They`re going to answer that question by the end of the program. New footage of my interview with prosecutors top of the hour.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: When you lay your head tonight on the pillow, in your heart and in your head, you are 100 percent convinced that George Zimmerman in taking out his gun and pulling the trigger did nothing wrong?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m 101 percent that he was -- that he should have done what he did except for the things that he did before.
COOPER: You mean, he shouldn`t have gotten out of the car, he shouldn`t have pursued Trayvon Martin, but in the final analysis, in the final struggle --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When the end came the end --
COOPER: He was justified --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was justified in shooting Trayvon Martin.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with the "Behavior Bureau" and my co-host, Samantha Schacher. Now, listen, we have some breaking news here. You`re going to hear it here first. This is just being handed to us. We have a court issued statement on behalf of the four jurors who have not yet spoken publicly about the case. Here is in part what they wrote.
"We, the undersigned jurors, understand there`s a great deal of interest in this case, but we ask you to remember that we are not public officials. We did not invite this type of attention into our lives. We also wish to point out that the opinions of juror B37 expressed on the Anderson Cooper show were her own and not in any way representative of the jurors listed below. Juror B51, B76, E6, E40, jurors asked that their privacy be respected, and they want time to process what they have been through."
That is breaking news, ladies and gentlemen. That is in response to the interview on Anderson Cooper. Janeen, I want to go to you first. We were talking about a little bit about the reaction people have when they get out of a trial like this. I`m assuming (ph) these jurors could have some sort of acute or posttraumatic stress disturbance.
DEMARTE: I think that`s a great point, Dr. Drew. It`s something that`s often looked past that jurors, in this case and other cases, they`re hearing some pretty gruesome things. They`re hearing and seeing family members who are grieving. It`s a very difficult process. And, it`s not uncommon for these jurors to have a difficult time.
PINSKY: Jenny, you want to comment?
HUTT: Yes. And then to add to that juror B37 coming out and speaking as if it were on behalf of the other jurors and saying some things that, frankly, Dr. Drew, make me feel really upset inside. The fact that she has no feeling that there was any complicit nature evolves with George Zimmerman is out of control, that she can actually quantify that to the fact that he got out of his car, blah, blah, blah, he did nothing wrong.
PINSKY: Cheryl, go ahead.
ARUTT: I just would like to make the collective observation based upon the Zimmerman juror`s statement that it seems that nobody really likes to be lumped together in a whole group as if everybody thinks the same thing.
PINSKY: Yes. Even the jury.
ARUTT: They want their individuality respected. And I think we can learn from that.
PINSKY: Here`s what I want to do. I want to take a break. I want to keep this panel going. Tiffanie, across the break, I want you to think about whether or not this case got messed up by the lack of diversity in the jury to start with and things were doomed from the beginning.
PINSKY: All right. Take a break. Be right back. We will talk eventually about Jodi Arias, too. She was in court today and dress with the occasion, in prison stripes and chains and heavily armed guards around her. I want to know why that was. So, we`ll get right to it. Be back with Tiffanies`s thoughts after this.
PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher. And Samantha, we have some breaking news again. I want to read what the court has issued as a statement on behalf of the four jurors who have not spoken publicly about this case yet. Here it is. Again, you are hearing it. We`re issuing it for the second time. It`s breaking news. Here it is in part.
"We, the undersigned jurors, understand there`s a great deal of interest in this case. But we ask you to remember that we are not public officials and we did not invite this type of attention into our lives. We also wish to point out that the opinions of juror B37 expressed on the Anderson Cooper show were her own and not in any way representative of the jurors listed below. JurorB51, B76, E6, E40, jurors ask that their privacy be respected and they want time to process what they have been through."
Tiffanie, I promised you a chance to go at this and the lack of diversity amongst those jurors.
HENRY: You know what? I applaud them for advocating for themselves and realizing that they`re in the real world now. They`re no longer in the courtroom. And in the real world, one does not speak for all. This jury, because they were all women, because the majority of them were of one race, I think it did lack diversity. Just even evidence -- and I don`t want to lump them all in the same category, because we`ve learned here on DR. DREW ON CALL that that`s not OK.
But, with the one juror saying "they" so many times is evidence that she isn`t as sensitive as she needs to be both racially and from a diversity perspective.
HENRY: I think we would have benefited from having more males on this jury. We would have benefited from having different races.
HENRY: Yes. We would have benefited from having different social economic statuses. A lot of things may have been different had we had a different jury. However, I think that with diversity, it would have -- we would have gotten more credibility in terms of their verdict and we would have more comfort in the verdict that they ended up reaching.
I think because of the lack of diversity, it`s left a lot of unrest amongst a lot of us, because we`re thinking, well, this is just one group of people, one perspective. And so, I think that`s why people are so unsettled by this -- didn`t feel like every voice was heard.
PINSKY: And four jurors signed that document. There is a fifth and then there`s sixth that spoke to Anderson Cooper, but Sam, you want to tell something?
SCHACHER: I`m so happy that they released this statement, because, you know, to Jenny`s point earlier, when I watched the interview, I was amazed. This juror had so much sympathy for George Zimmerman and believed his account 101 percent. It made me realize did she even really take into account Trayvon Martin`s circumstances? And that he, too, was in fear for his life.
PINSKY: Jenny and I wonder if, in fact, Trayvon thought he was in the middle of some sort of violent crime. But I`ve got to go, everybody. I`m out of time. I got to go. Thank you, panel. Back after this.
PINSKY: And we are back with my co-host, Samantha Schacher. Samantha, Jodi Arias returned to court today looking every bit the convicted murderer that she, in fact, is, shackled, prison stripes, flanked by three heavily armed guards. That`s the thing I`m interested in. The judge hopes the retrial will begin on the penalty phase in late September, but she did not yet set a date.
Sam, we don`t have any specific information about what`s going on there in the jail, but those heavily armed guards, do you think they`re there to protect her or to prevent her from doing something?
SCHACHER: You know what, I was wondering the same thing earlier today. Is this protocol for somebody that was convicted of murder one? Is she a high risk inmate? I don`t know. But I was wondering the same thing, too.
PINSKY: That is all the kinds of detail we`re going to have to get into as this thing continues to unfold. Tomorrow, we have the first interview with the witness who swore that it was Trayvon`s voice calling for help the night he was killed. Samantha, thank you tonight for joining me. Thank you all for watching. The "HLN After Dark" will begin right now.